Ashamed to be an American
Fredric L. Rice
to be an American.
--
"It doesn't give me displeasure to hear of a virgin being raped. The
lot of women is to be fornicated."-L. Ron Hubbard, "Affirmations" 1947
http://www.skeptictank.org/ http://www.xenu.net/ http://holysmoke.org/
Chris Leithiser
>
> After what happened in Florida this Saturday, I'm ashamed
> to be an American.
>
> --
I'm not. The kid was retrieved--safely--from the kidnappers.
Will you be ashamed when, after $cientology reaches its E-O-C and
imprisons the kids at Gold, the police try to rescue them?
frank howell
Juan Miguel will get Elian. Fidel is sending him to a state center because
he is a political liability. Can't have the boy speaking of McDonalds to
people who live on 1200 calories a day can we?
Chris Leithiser <clei...@bc.cc.ca.us> wrote in message
news:39048C10...@bc.cc.ca.us...
frank howell
Elain may have been packing a supersoaker.
barb
>
> After what happened in Florida this Saturday, I'm ashamed
> to be an American.
>
> --
> lot of women is to be fornicated."-L. Ron Hubbard, "Affirmations" 1947
> http://www.skeptictank.org/ http://www.xenu.net/ http://holysmoke.org/
They got the kid out safely. The raid was a direct result of the Miami
family's uncooperative attitude. They're the ones who should be ashamed,
parading that poor kid about at all hours to further their own political
agenda. Disgusting!
--
--barb
"Every week, every month, every year, every decade and now
every century, Scientology does wierd and stupid things
to damage its own reputation."
-Steve Zadarnowski
Roland
>
> After what happened in Florida this Saturday, I'm ashamed
> to be an American.
Oh shit. What have I missed out on? Kids going into their schools with
bazookas and samarai swords this time? The worls has changed forever and
I have missed it. :o((
Roland
--
"I notice that we all believe that Venus has a methane atmosphere and
is unlivable. I almost got run down by a freight locomotive the other
day -- didn't look very uncivilized to me." - L. Ron Hubbard,
"Between Lives Implants" lecture, SHSBC #317. 23 July 1963.
http://www.xs4all.nl/~xemu/rams/Venusloc.ram
Chris Leithiser
>
> If Janet Reno had been AG during the civil rights movement this likely would
> have occured....
>
> Dr. M.L. King: "I have a dream......"
>
> Mr. Reno: "Yes, well I have armored personnel carriers..."
Guess what? The government _did_ have APC's back then. They _did_
shoot protestors at Kent State.
That _ain't_ what happened here.
>
> Maybe you can explain to me exactly how they did not pack excessive
> firepower on the raid. I also find it darkly ironic that the Bubba
> administration claimed politics had no impact on their choice. Bubba wants
> a legacy... it seems attempted normalization of relations with Cuba is worth
> steamrollering peaceful dissent.
Sure, I can explain it. If you're going in to get someone (say, make an
arrest, or rescue a kidnap victim) in an area where hundreds and
thousands of people in the area have threatened physical action to stop
the police from carrying out their duty; if those included people who
have threatened violent civil disturbances if the police show up; you'd
be crackers not to go in, in force and armed.
Now, you don't shoot people who don't shoot you. You keep your finger
off the trigger and your weapon on safe as much as possible. But you by
Xenu carry it, especially when you're searching for people hiding in the
closets, in a home where the occupants have hinted at violent
resistance.
The timing on the raid was brilliant, too. Just before Easter, to
defuse any riots somewhat.
As to "politics" being involved, what do you call Elian's kidnapping in
the first place?
> I guess I am the only one that finds a bunch of 60's peacenik protesters
> miltarizing our law-enforcement more and more each day while squashing
> demonstrations a tad hypocritical. Oh well, it's just another day here in
> paradise. Turn on the Simpsons Bubba says everything is OKAY.
Guess so. I'd much rather have had the kidnappers hand over the boy to
his father when they said they would, too. Didn't happen. They decided
instad to hold the kid until their demands were met.
> The DOJ is now saying in hindsight they should have placed the boy with
> people more politically in line with the father. I hear there is a
> communist couple that was looking into adoption during a recent legal
> crisis. The house is at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. Washington D.C.... just ask
> for bubba and the queen.
So this is what it's all about for you. You don't like Clinton, so you
want to make political capital out of the case. Gee, and I thought it
was all about the boy.
frank howell
were violent? When. I am from Ohio and have visited Kent State have you?
The "peaceful" protestors there were kind of like you know antoginizing the
Guard. It is about the boy.... if he is not going to be with his father
when he returns to Cuba than why not leave him here?
My political dislike of the commander in heat has nothing to do with my
feelings on the boy. I find it extremely entertaining as a parent myself
the assertion of parental rights in a case where the parent will not
maintain custody in the foreign land. I think the CUSTODIAL parent voted on
where Elian should live with her life.
Here is a question, "Do you find it ironic that an administration made up of
people who infer the "right" of any child to "divorce" his parents have no
compunction on keeping quiet that part of their rhetoric when it does not
suit THEIR political purpose?" I rather laugh when Tipper Gore is the only
Democrat sticking to that mantra. (as seen on Larry King) Funny one side
refuses to acknowledge when their politics weigh into their decision making.
Regards,
Frank
Chris Leithiser <clei...@bc.cc.ca.us> wrote in message
news:3904B750...@bc.cc.ca.us...
El Roto
you'd expect if your son was held by your in-laws because they
didn't like where you lived, refused to give him back to you, and
threatened violent action against anyone that tried to get him
back to you.
Me, I'd be ashamed if law enforcement allowed the child to be
kept from the surviving parent that had legal custody in the
first place.
The picture was very frightening (MP-5's have that effect on me),
but if the Miami family hadn't created such a hostile atmosphere
towards the authorities, none of it would have been neccessary.
My $.02,
Steve G.
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
frank howell
strong)possibility that the father will not in fact be the "parent"?
El Roto <gopackN...@sprintmail.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:0a4d19b8...@usw-ex0104-033.remarq.com...
Chris Leithiser
>
> Hey Chris I'm curious... the boy was kidnapped By whom? The protestors
> were violent? When. I am from Ohio and have visited Kent State have you?
> The "peaceful" protestors there were kind of like you know antoginizing the
> Guard. It is about the boy.... if he is not going to be with his father
> when he returns to Cuba than why not leave him here?
The boy was kidnapped when the people holding him refused to turn him
over as agreed. When they started attaching conditions, it turned into
ransom.
The protestors (I presume you meant in Miami) had threatened civil
disorder if the cops came to get Elian.
I have not visited Kent State, but the protestors there were not doing
anything to justify lethal force being used against them. Period. And
the Guard lied to cover it up.
As to the custody issue, it's the father's choice. If you want to make
child-care choices for him, why not for me? Maybe you disagree with my
choice of child-care arrangement as well?
> My political dislike of the commander in heat has nothing to do with my
> feelings on the boy. I find it extremely entertaining as a parent myself
> the assertion of parental rights in a case where the parent will not
> maintain custody in the foreign land. I think the CUSTODIAL parent voted on
> where Elian should live with her life.
Possession is not custody. Kids from divorced families are abducted all
the time.
> Here is a question, "Do you find it ironic that an administration made up of
> people who infer the "right" of any child to "divorce" his parents have no
> compunction on keeping quiet that part of their rhetoric when it does not
> suit THEIR political purpose?" I rather laugh when Tipper Gore is the only
> Democrat sticking to that mantra. (as seen on Larry King) Funny one side
> refuses to acknowledge when their politics weigh into their decision making.
How do you know what the administration as a whole "infers?" I have
only your statement that the _wife_ of one government official made
statements you interpreted that way. I, for one, get nervous when
people start putting quotation marks around the word "right" as above.
Ironic? I find it ironic that so many people only want to follow the
law when it benefits their _own_ point of view.
diespa...@best.com
: After what happened in Florida this Saturday, I'm ashamed
: to be an American.
Mr. Rice,
Despite your strong feelings, then endless thread your post
will generate is off-topic for ARS.
StukaFox
Rev. Dr. Swank
<fr...@skeptictank.org> wrote:
>After what happened in Florida this Saturday, I'm ashamed
>to be an American.
all it took was that?
______________________________________________________________________
Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com - Still Only $9.95 - http://www.uncensored-news.com
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marcab_4
barb wrote:
>
> Fredric L. Rice wrote:
> >
> > After what happened in Florida this Saturday, I'm ashamed
> > to be an American.
> >
> > --
> > "It doesn't give me displeasure to hear of a virgin being raped. The
> > lot of women is to be fornicated."-L. Ron Hubbard, "Affirmations" 1947
> > http://www.skeptictank.org/ http://www.xenu.net/ http://holysmoke.org/
>
> They got the kid out safely.
OK!
>The raid was a direct result of the Miami
> family's uncooperative attitude.
OK!
>They're the ones who should be ashamed,
> parading that poor kid about at all hours to further their own political
> agenda. Disgusting!
But, what about the use of EXCESSIVE ARMED FORCE?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/720000/images/_722796__tsawt300.jpg
Clinton Admin., start to look like OSA DIRTY S***!
Best Regards
Marcab_4
"All french political spheres think since the last
year that a large part of the Clinton administration
is composed of Scientologists and friends
of that sect."-René Vincent-
marcab_4
Roland wrote:
>
> Fredric L. Rice wrote:
> >
> > After what happened in Florida this Saturday, I'm ashamed
> > to be an American.
>
> Oh shit. What have I missed out on? Kids going into their schools with
> bazookas and samarai swords this time? The worls has changed forever and
> I have missed it. :o((
No problem, Roland... :-)
Get updated at:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/americas/newsid_722000/722796.stm
The worst part was the EXCESSIVE use of the ARMED FORCE
http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/720000/images/_722796__tsawt300.jpg
Was the Fed Guy afraid of a six year boy named Elian Gonzales?
--
Best Regards
Marcab_4
"All french political spheres think since the last
year that a large part of the Clinton administration
is composed of Scientologists and friends
of that sect."-René Vincent-
>
mi...@znyp.com
>After what happened in Florida this Saturday, I'm ashamed
>to be an American.
Oh, for God's sake <slapslapslap>.
I saw
many people
reduced to
incoherent babbling,
stripping off clothes,
crawling around on the ground,
banging heads, limbs and other body parts
against furniture and walls,
barking,
losing all sense of one's identity
and intense and persistent suicidal ideation.
--Declaration of Andre Tabayoyon
If you imagine 40-50 Scientologists
posting on the Internet every few days,
we'll just run the SP's right off the system.
It will be quite simple, actually.
--Elaine Siegel, OSA INT (1996)
Case 5/BTLA/SP2
Tampawog
to be an American. >>
Frankly I'm sick of hearing about Elian and his family. He has been a
policital pawn for both sides.
We have foster children, abused children, orphans, etc. everyday in America.
Situations that go ignored, or have very little resources allocated to them.
What about those kids?
I think it would be safe to say that our government and the Miami area has
spent $250,000 plus in manpower, plane rides, salaries, and other shit on this
case. Maybe far more than that. You could feed a bunch of poor kids with that
kind of dough. Or buy medical care for kids who need it.
But, I'll take America over any other country.
I'll won't vote democrat again. Clinton has lost my respect. I used to like
the bastard, but no more. Chelsea looks better than she used to though.
By the way, Scientology sucks ass and there is no tech. And L. Ron Hubbard had
some fucked up teeth for an Operating Thetan.
pATRICk dARCy
> > to be an American.
> >
>
> I'm not. The kid was retrieved--safely--from the kidnappers.
>
> Will you be ashamed when, after $cientology reaches its E-O-C and
> imprisons the kids at Gold, the police try to rescue them?
>
lets not forget to include the 6 children at the washington zoo
that just got shot. a little thought for them
thanks pat
--
What if what is isnt true, what are u gonna do
Smashing Pumpkins
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
roger gonnet
Chris Leithiser <clei...@bc.cc.ca.us> a écrit dans le message :
39048C10...@bc.cc.ca.us...
> "Fredric L. Rice" wrote:
> >
> > After what happened in Florida this Saturday, I'm ashamed
> > to be an American.
> >
> > --
>
> I'm not. The kid was retrieved--safely--from the kidnappers.
>
> Will you be ashamed when, after $cientology reaches its E-O-C and
> imprisons the kids at Gold, the police try to rescue them?
For that one , I think that US president and other american did the correct
thing.
The boy was his father's boy, and his father does not look at all a crazy
guy, so what?
Tragedy is that he's been used for some ball game. Used beig the key word. A
boy should not be a tool to leviate political ambitions. Clinton and others
did well, thsis time. Hoping they could give back to their parents all the
children taken by the criminal maffia.
roger
Diane Richardson
wrote:
>Hey Chris I'm curious... the boy was kidnapped By whom?
By the Miami relatives, when they refused to turn the boy over
to his legal guardian, the U.S. government.
>The protestors
>were violent? When. I am from Ohio and have visited Kent State have you?
Yes. Many, many times.
>The "peaceful" protestors there were kind of like you know antoginizing the
>Guard.
All but one of the students who were shot and killed had never
protested. Their only crime was walking to class when the Guard
decided to panic and shoot. They had never antagonized the troops
who were ordered to occupy campus.
If your idea of "American justice" is opening fire on unarmed students
whose only mistake was being in the wrong place at the wrong time,
I'd suggest you find yourself a nice fascist country to live in.
>It is about the boy.... if he is not going to be with his father
>when he returns to Cuba than why not leave him here?
Because it is the father's right to decide how and where his son
will be reared.
>My political dislike of the commander in heat has nothing to do with my
>feelings on the boy. I find it extremely entertaining as a parent myself
>the assertion of parental rights in a case where the parent will not
>maintain custody in the foreign land. I think the CUSTODIAL parent voted on
>where Elian should live with her life.
The parents had joint custody of the child. The mother's decision
had nothing to do with her political beliefs; she was attempting to
get to the U.S. to be with her boyfriend.
>Here is a question, "Do you find it ironic that an administration made up of
>people who infer the "right" of any child to "divorce" his parents have no
>compunction on keeping quiet that part of their rhetoric when it does not
>suit THEIR political purpose?"
The current administration has no such policy.
Here's a question for you: "Do you find it ironic that a political
party who has campaigned for years on the sanctity of 'family values'
chooses to ignore those values when it suits them?"
> I rather laugh when Tipper Gore is the only
>Democrat sticking to that mantra. (as seen on Larry King) Funny one side
>refuses to acknowledge when their politics weigh into their decision making.
You're right. I find it absolutely disgusting that Republicans are
already using the Elian Gonzalez incident in campaign fund-raising
literature.
Diane Richardson
ref...@bway.net
Ian Rennie
>
>
> barb wrote:
> >
> > Fredric L. Rice wrote:
> > >
> > > After what happened in Florida this Saturday, I'm ashamed
> > > to be an American.
> > >
> > > --
> > > "It doesn't give me displeasure to hear of a virgin being raped. The
> > > lot of women is to be fornicated."-L. Ron Hubbard, "Affirmations" 1947
> > > http://www.skeptictank.org/ http://www.xenu.net/ http://holysmoke.org/
> >
> > They got the kid out safely.
> OK!
> >The raid was a direct result of the Miami
> > family's uncooperative attitude.
> OK!
> >They're the ones who should be ashamed,
> > parading that poor kid about at all hours to further their own political
> > agenda. Disgusting!
>
> But, what about the use of EXCESSIVE ARMED FORCE?
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/720000/images/_722796__tsawt300.jpg
did the Miami family have guns?
I believe they did.
Were they stubbornly trying to hang on to the kid by any means necessary?
I believe they were.
Did the situation necessitate the use of force?
I believe it did.
Is Elian happy with his father?
I believe he is.
Ian Rennie
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/720000/images/_722796__tsawt300.jpg
> Was the Fed Guy afraid of a six year boy named Elian Gonzales?
no
was the fed guy afraid of the huge mob that had gathered, a number of them
armed, who were willing to use force to stop the boy being returned to his
father?
Possibly
frank howell
Is ABC lying when they say the feds had "semi-automatic"weapons?
I KNOW they are. (I am qualified on the HK mp5 the agents used.)
Did the situation require the threat of force? Possibly, just not the level
entailed in the raid.
Did the family have guns? I'll ask you a question,"Is there any evidence
they were threatening to use them?"
Ian Rennie <ir...@york.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:Pine.SOL.3.95L.10004...@mailer.york.ac.uk...
> On Mon, 24 Apr 2000, marcab_4 wrote:
>
> >
> >
mi...@znyp.com
>Was the Fed guy right to be pointing a gun towards the family in the
>building?
You point where you look.
Such as into a closet possibly containing a pistol-wielding user of a
child who has lost its mother as an anti-Casto political pawn.
OT again.
> I didn't see a large number of protest types in that house.
>Ian Rennie <ir...@york.ac.uk> wrote in message
>news:Pine.SOL.3.95L.100042...@mailer.york.ac.uk...
>> On Mon, 24 Apr 2000, marcab_4 wrote:
>>
>> > http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/720000/images/_722796__tsawt300.jpg
>> > Was the Fed Guy afraid of a six year boy named Elian Gonzales?
>>
>> no
>>
>> was the fed guy afraid of the huge mob that had gathered, a number of them
>> armed, who were willing to use force to stop the boy being returned to his
>> father?
>>
>> Possibly
>>
>
>
--
marcab_4
Ian Rennie wrote:
>
> On Mon, 24 Apr 2000, marcab_4 wrote:
>
> >
> >
Well take a look of the FAKE PHOTOS AT:
http://www.lermanet.com/drudge.htm
and read the drudge report...
I don't believe yet...
marcab_4
Ian Rennie wrote:
>
> On Mon, 24 Apr 2000, marcab_4 wrote:
>
> > http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/720000/images/_722796__tsawt300.jpg
> > Was the Fed Guy afraid of a six year boy named Elian Gonzales?
>
> no
>
> was the fed guy afraid of the huge mob that had gathered, a number of them
> armed, who were willing to use force to stop the boy being returned to his
> father?
>
> Possibly
At that time there were only 20 reporters...
they were afraid of the 4th power "the News...
--
Best Regards
Marcab_4
Steve Zadarnowski
>They got the kid out safely. The raid was a direct result of the Miami
>family's uncooperative attitude. They're the ones who should be ashamed,
>parading that poor kid about at all hours to further their own political
>agenda. Disgusting!
The family had already stated that if they wanted him to come
get him. They did!
The court ruled he had to be back with his father.
The way I see it, the kid became subject to American Law
the day he set foot in the country (as does any foreigner.)
Whether he remained or departed (and how) was going to
be by decided by law - and all the bleeding hearts and
'natural justice' advocates should've realised this
straight away.
The mere concept that something like 10 kids a day are seized
from parents, grandparents and others in America by the
authorities due to legal decision doesn't seem to have
clicked with these people that this particular kid is really
just one of many.
S
marcab_4
Chris Leithiser wrote:
>
> frank howell wrote:
> >
> > Hey Chris I'm curious... the boy was kidnapped By whom? The protestors
> > were violent? When. I am from Ohio and have visited Kent State have you?
> > The "peaceful" protestors there were kind of like you know antoginizing the
> > Guard. It is about the boy.... if he is not going to be with his father
> > when he returns to Cuba than why not leave him here?
>
> The boy was kidnapped when the people holding him refused to turn him
> over as agreed. When they started attaching conditions, it turned into
> ransom.
>
> The protestors (I presume you meant in Miami) had threatened civil
> disorder if the cops came to get Elian.
>
> I have not visited Kent State, but the protestors there were not doing
> anything to justify lethal force being used against them. Period. And
> the Guard lied to cover it up.
>
> As to the custody issue, it's the father's choice. If you want to make
> child-care choices for him, why not for me? Maybe you disagree with my
> choice of child-care arrangement as well?
>
> > My political dislike of the commander in heat has nothing to do with my
> > feelings on the boy. I find it extremely entertaining as a parent myself
> > the assertion of parental rights in a case where the parent will not
> > maintain custody in the foreign land. I think the CUSTODIAL parent voted on
> > where Elian should live with her life.
>
> Possession is not custody. Kids from divorced families are abducted all
> the time.
>
> > Here is a question, "Do you find it ironic that an administration made up of
> > people who infer the "right" of any child to "divorce" his parents have no
> > compunction on keeping quiet that part of their rhetoric when it does not
> > suit THEIR political purpose?" I rather laugh when Tipper Gore is the only
> > Democrat sticking to that mantra. (as seen on Larry King) Funny one side
> > refuses to acknowledge when their politics weigh into their decision making.
>
> How do you know what the administration as a whole "infers?" I have
> only your statement that the _wife_ of one government official made
> statements you interpreted that way. I, for one, get nervous when
> people start putting quotation marks around the word "right" as above.
>
> Ironic? I find it ironic that so many people only want to follow the
> law when it benefits their _own_ point of view.
Well, well, what about the FAKE PHOTOS?
see it at:
http://www.lermanet.com/drudge.htm
Fredric L. Rice
> "Fredric L. Rice" wrote:
> > After what happened in Florida this Saturday, I'm ashamed
> > to be an American.
>
> I'm not. The kid was retrieved--safely--from the kidnappers.
Hardly kidnapping. This is merely a child custody case. In
a polite, non-fascist country, the police knock like civilized
citizens upon people's doors, present their legal papers, and
if there is opposition, ask the Marshal they bring with them
to seize the child involved in the custody case.
In a fascist country the police wear nomex, kick in the door
in the dead of night like common thugs, and point semi-
automatic weapons at six year olds. These officer's assault
wasn't justified.
> Will you be ashamed when, after $cientology reaches its E-O-C and
> imprisons the kids at Gold, the police try to rescue them?
If they conduct themselves like civilized men rather than hyped-
up fascist thugs, yep. When the police conduct raids on the
cult's "gold base," I would expect them to knock nicely and to
present papers. Only if there's violent opposition would I
condone such a violent assault as was conducted in this child
custody case.
While I may joke about the crook's ringleaders getting "Janet
Renoed," I don't want to see my country behave like Saddam,
Stalin, or Pol Pot.
Fredric L. Rice
> oh and another thing I am totally sure the HK mp5's were totally necessary.
> Elain may have been packing a supersoaker.
Well, busting in to seize the kid without a semi-automatic
weapon kind of ruins the image the police were after.
Fredric L. Rice
> Fredric L. Rice wrote:
> > After what happened in Florida this Saturday, I'm ashamed
> > to be an American.
>
> They got the kid out safely. The raid was a direct result of the Miami
> family's uncooperative attitude. They're the ones who should be ashamed,
> parading that poor kid about at all hours to further their own political
> agenda. Disgusting!
It sounds like mutual stupidity, just like the Branch Davidians.
I've not heard any indication that the fisherman who held
custody in this case was armed. Certainly nothing indicated that
an armed response was warrented. Why couldn't someone from
Child Welfare knock on the door and present papers like a
civilized country does? One Marshal backed by three or four
police officers waiting outside would have been enough to
settle this custody case.
Fredric L. Rice
> frank howell wrote:
> > If Janet Reno had been AG during the civil rights movement this likely would
> > have occured....
> > Dr. M.L. King: "I have a dream......"
> > Mr. Reno: "Yes, well I have armored personnel carriers..."
>
> Guess what? The government _did_ have APC's back then. They _did_
> shoot protestors at Kent State.
That was another bad day for America. }:-} But even before
that, the U. S. Marshals Service had to be applied to enforce
desegregation, and yes, they did it while heavily armed. The only
difference was that the U. S. Marshals were ordered to maintain
the peace like civilized citizens and were ordered not to return
fire. It resulted in numerous Marshals being wounded and a few
Marshals getting killed. But the point is that they enforced the
law like civilized men living in a civilized country, upholding the
principles which I'd like to think are higher ideals.
Fredric L. Rice
> frank howell wrote:
> > Hey Chris I'm curious... the boy was kidnapped By whom? The protestors
> > were violent? When. I am from Ohio and have visited Kent State have you?
> > The "peaceful" protestors there were kind of like you know antoginizing the
> > Guard. It is about the boy.... if he is not going to be with his father
> > when he returns to Cuba than why not leave him here?
>
> The boy was kidnapped when the people holding him refused to turn him
> over as agreed. When they started attaching conditions, it turned into
> ransom.
Being the case, the civilized response is to have _one_ U. S.
Marshal knock politely on the door, requesting custody of the
child, while presenting papers. If opposed, the Marshal signals
a pair of police officers waiting politely outside like civilized
citizens to come in and place the "kidnapper" under arrest. The
child would then be collected by Children's Welfare in a civilized
manor.
Fredric L. Rice
> That's your right. I'm curious, though, what kind of action
> you'd expect if your son was held by your in-laws because they
> didn't like where you lived, refused to give him back to you, and
> threatened violent action against anyone that tried to get him
> back to you.
That's not an analogy to this custody case. In any event, I
would go to the house in question with local law enforcement
officers who would knock politely on the door and then arrest
the individuals responsible -- like what's done in a polite society.
frank howell
are lying about the capabilities of their weapons. Sort of like they lied
about the family having guns.(Janet Reno confirmed that two sweeps of the
house had turned up no weapons when conferring with the Senate on the raid
today.... whoops)
Fredric L. Rice <fr...@skeptictank.org> wrote in message
news:3905DC78...@skeptictank.org...
> Chris Leithiser wrote:
>
> > "Fredric L. Rice" wrote:
> > > After what happened in Florida this Saturday, I'm ashamed
> > > to be an American.
> >
>
> Hardly kidnapping. This is merely a child custody case. In
> a polite, non-fascist country, the police knock like civilized
> citizens upon people's doors, present their legal papers, and
> if there is opposition, ask the Marshal they bring with them
> to seize the child involved in the custody case.
>
> In a fascist country the police wear nomex, kick in the door
> in the dead of night like common thugs, and point semi-
> automatic weapons at six year olds. These officer's assault
> wasn't justified.
>
> > Will you be ashamed when, after $cientology reaches its E-O-C and
> > imprisons the kids at Gold, the police try to rescue them?
>
> If they conduct themselves like civilized men rather than hyped-
> up fascist thugs, yep. When the police conduct raids on the
> cult's "gold base," I would expect them to knock nicely and to
> present papers. Only if there's violent opposition would I
> condone such a violent assault as was conducted in this child
> custody case.
>
> While I may joke about the crook's ringleaders getting "Janet
> Renoed," I don't want to see my country behave like Saddam,
> Stalin, or Pol Pot.
>
Fredric L. Rice
> On Mon, 24 Apr 2000 17:49:11 GMT, "Fredric L. Rice"
> <fr...@skeptictank.org> wrote:
>
> >After what happened in Florida this Saturday, I'm ashamed
> >to be an American.
>
> all it took was that?
Well, call it a specific example of a general case.
Chris Leithiser
>
> Chris Leithiser wrote:
>
> > frank howell wrote:
> > > Hey Chris I'm curious... the boy was kidnapped By whom? The protestors
> > > were violent? When. I am from Ohio and have visited Kent State have you?
> > > The "peaceful" protestors there were kind of like you know antoginizing the
> > > Guard. It is about the boy.... if he is not going to be with his father
> > > when he returns to Cuba than why not leave him here?
> >
> > The boy was kidnapped when the people holding him refused to turn him
> > over as agreed. When they started attaching conditions, it turned into
> > ransom.
>
> Being the case, the civilized response is to have _one_ U. S.
> Marshal knock politely on the door, requesting custody of the
> child, while presenting papers. If opposed, the Marshal signals
> a pair of police officers waiting politely outside like civilized
> citizens to come in and place the "kidnapper" under arrest. The
> child would then be collected by Children's Welfare in a civilized
> manor.
>
Fredric L. Rice
> << After what happened in Florida this Saturday, I'm ashamed
> to be an American. >>
>
> Frankly I'm sick of hearing about Elian and his family. He has been a
> policital pawn for both sides.
>
> We have foster children, abused children, orphans, etc. everyday in America.
> Situations that go ignored, or have very little resources allocated to them.
> What about those kids?
Amen, brother TampaWog. There are higher priorities that
America needs to address. Mayhaps I shouldn't have mentioned
my displeasure here in a.r.s.
Ian Rennie
> Was the Fed guy right to be pointing a gun towards the family in the
> building? I didn't see a large number of protest types in that house.
how much of the house did you see outside of that one photograph?
Ian Rennie
I think you are missing one factor in this
The mob
there have been mass demonstrations in Miami about this for weeks. One
US marshall would have made no impact whatsoever. He probably wouldn't
have got to within a hundred yards of the front door.
Monica Pignotti
> > lot of women is to be fornicated."-L. Ron Hubbard, "Affirmations"
1947
> > http://www.skeptictank.org/ http://www.xenu.net/
http://holysmoke.org/
>
> family's uncooperative attitude. They're the ones who should be
ashamed,
> parading that poor kid about at all hours to further their own
political
> agenda. Disgusting!
You've bought into Janet Reno's lies. The fact is that according to
one of the main negotiators who was interviewed on the Today show and
exposed her. He was speaking to the family on the phone at the time of
the government assualt, they were very close to a deal. Even though
this person was a friend of Janet Reno's and praised her, he couldn't
understand why she chose to invade this family when they were so
close. What's more, the way they did it was inexcusable.
I'm with Fred on this. I am ashamed to be an American after what
happened. It would appear that the majority of the American public
does not understand what Elian is going back to if he is sent back to
Cuba. What people are not understanding with all this talk about a
parent's rights is that parents have no rights in Cuba. Elian is the
property of Fidel Castro's Cuba who can do with him whatever they
wish. Castro's daughter said in an interview that he will probably be
sent to an institution that will "deprogram" him, with or without his
father's consent.
Would you support a child being sent back to a Scientology Sea Org
family if you knew he was going to the RPF upon return? I doubt many
people here would. I think that if this were a story about Scientology
and there were relatives outside of it wanting to rescue a child by
gaining custody, most people here would support them. Well, sending
this child back to Cuba is many times worse, since in Cuba the Castro
cult is the law and there is no way people can leave. At least it's
not against the law to leave Scientology.
Shame on our government and the clueless idiots who are running it,
especially Bill Clinton. First he kisses up to Scientology and now
he's kissing up to Castro. Disgusting.
Monica Pignotti
JimDBB
>From: Monica Pignotti pign...@my-deja.com
>Date: 4/25/00 5:07 PM Central
I agree with you about Clinton but this kid should have been returned to his
father some weeks ago. It is unconscionable how much money the US has spent on
this farce. The media will keep this going to fill up their airtime until the
next hokey drama.
JimDBB
Beverly Rice
> You're right. I find it absolutely disgusting that Republicans are
> already using the Elian Gonzalez incident in campaign fund-raising
> literature.
I'll go you one further . . .
I find ~both~ republicans and democrats political diatribes
absolutely disgusting. :-) , or should I say :-(
Beverly
Fredric L. Rice
> "Fredric L. Rice" wrote:
> > Being the case, the civilized response is to have _one_ U. S.
> > Marshal knock politely on the door, requesting custody of the
> > child, while presenting papers. If opposed, the Marshal signals
> > a pair of police officers waiting politely outside like civilized
> > citizens to come in and place the "kidnapper" under arrest. The
> > child would then be collected by Children's Welfare in a civilized
> > manor.
>
> During the riot?
Didn't the rioting happen _after_ the hostage rescue (sic) team
took the kid?
--
Fredric L. Rice
> It is unconscionable how much money the US has spent on
> this farce. The media will keep this going to fill up their airtime until the
> next hokey drama.
It's going to be worse, though: All the self-proclaimed "militia"
gun nut groups in America are going to add this incident to the
list of excuses for arming themselves against the black helicopters.
Monica Pignotti
jim...@aol.com (JimDBB) wrote:
>I agree with you about Clinton but this kid should have been returned
>US has spent on this farce. The media will keep this going to fill up
>their airtime until the next hokey drama.
The father had only been in the United States for 2 weeks. If the
father stays in the US I agree he should get custody, but if he goes
back to Cuba where such rights do not exist. Cuba is a dictatorship
that does not recognize human rights and it does not recognize a
father's right. Castro can and will take Elian for their service at
any time, just as surely as he were a Sea Org member and the father,
who is an indoctrinated cult member, has nothing to say about it. The
only difference is that Scientology has not yet reached the point where
they shoot SO members for leaving.
Monica Pignotti
"roger gonnet" <roger....@worldnet.fr> wrote:
>
> Chris Leithiser <clei...@bc.cc.ca.us> a écrit dans le message :
> 39048C10...@bc.cc.ca.us...
> > "Fredric L. Rice" wrote:
> > >
> > > After what happened in Florida this Saturday, I'm ashamed
> > > to be an American.
> > >
> >
> > I'm not. The kid was retrieved--safely--from the kidnappers.
> >
> > imprisons the kids at Gold, the police try to rescue them?
>
correct
> thing.
>
> The boy was his father's boy, and his father does not look at all a
crazy
> guy, so what?
No, his father is not crazy and yes, Elian is his father's boy. The
point that keeps getting missed in all this, however, is that Cuba is a
dictatorship and will make Elian Castro's boy. Cuba does not recognize
a father's right. They will do with him as they please, irrespective
of the father's wishes.
>Tragedy is that he's been used for some ball game. Used beig the key
>word. A boy should not be a tool to leviate political ambitions.
>Clinton and others did well, thsis time. Hoping they could give back
>to their parents all the children taken by the criminal maffia.
This is not just "some ball game" and the only "political ambitions"
involved are those of Clinton who has the need to suck up to Castro.
This is a fight for freedom, very similar to the fight that those of us
who speak out against cults are engaged in. Calling the Miami
contingent "radicals" and "fanatics" is the same thing as cult
apologists calling us names for speaking out against cults. Clinton is
an embarrassment and his conduct continues to be shameful. He is by
far the most immoral president we have ever had and I can't wait for
him to get out of office. First he sucks up to John Travolta and
Scientology. Now he's sucking up to Castro. The man (if you could
call him that) has no principles whatsoever and yet people still
continue to be conned by him.
jrf...@atlascomm.net
wrote:
>umm Fred The agent's guns were semi-auto/burst/full-auto selectable. They
>are lying about the capabilities of their weapons. Sort of like they lied
>about the family having guns.(Janet Reno confirmed that two sweeps of the
>house had turned up no weapons when conferring with the Senate on the raid
>today.... whoops)
And, of course, they knew that in advance? Get real. The crowd
outside had threatened to use force. Yeah, it was overkill. So is
this thread. How about taking it to alt.liberal.minded.
barb
>
> Chris Leithiser wrote:
>
> > "Fredric L. Rice" wrote:
> > > Being the case, the civilized response is to have _one_ U. S.
> > > Marshal knock politely on the door, requesting custody of the
> > > child, while presenting papers. If opposed, the Marshal signals
> > > a pair of police officers waiting politely outside like civilized
> > > citizens to come in and place the "kidnapper" under arrest. The
> > > child would then be collected by Children's Welfare in a civilized
> > > manor.
> >
> > During the riot?
>
> Didn't the rioting happen _after_ the hostage rescue (sic) team
> took the kid?
>
> "It doesn't give me displeasure to hear of a virgin being raped. The
> lot of women is to be fornicated."-L. Ron Hubbard, "Affirmations" 1947
> http://www.skeptictank.org/ http://www.xenu.net/ http://holysmoke.org/
There was no rioting. I think they anticipated 1,000 protesters at a
Miami Heat game last night, and have put out heavy police presence as a
deterrrant. It seems to be working so far.
Much like San Diego during the LA riots, a heavy police presence
definately saved us from more of the same. I think Miami will be able to
keep the lid on this one.
--barb
"Every week, every month, every year, every decade and now
every century, Scientology does wierd and stupid things
to damage its own reputation."
-Steve Zadarnowski
Baba ROM DOS
>In article <8e3577$12nf$1...@news5.isdnet.net>,
> "roger gonnet" <roger....@worldnet.fr> wrote:
>> Chris Leithiser <clei...@bc.cc.ca.us> a écrit dans le message :
>> 39048C10...@bc.cc.ca.us...
>> > "Fredric L. Rice" wrote:
>> > >
>> > > After what happened in Florida this Saturday, I'm ashamed
>> > > to be an American.
>> >
Calmness. "Kidnappers" is just a propaganda word here.
But he *was* retrieved from the clutches of a group of people
with no legal or moral right to custody, who seem to place
their political agenda ahead of the boy's well-being.
>> > Will you be ashamed when, after $cientology reaches its E-O-C and
>> > imprisons the kids at Gold, the police try to rescue them?
>>
>> For that one , I think that US president and other american did the
>> correct thing.
>>
>> The boy was his father's boy, and his father does not look at all a
>> crazy guy, so what?
>
>No, his father is not crazy and yes, Elian is his father's boy. The
>point that keeps getting missed in all this, however, is that Cuba is a
>dictatorship and will make Elian Castro's boy. Cuba does not recognize
>a father's right. They will do with him as they please, irrespective
>of the father's wishes.
Living overseas, it wasn't until this rubbish spilled over into
a.r.s. that I began to fathom the degree to which this has
been hyped-up by the media, and the degree to which
usually thoughtful posters to this newsgroup have been
reduced to parroting propaganda.
I respectfully submit that until one has actually spend some
time travelling in less-than-democratic countries, one has
no business commenting on whether or not it's moral to
allow someone to live there. Yeah, the Cuban regime
sucks. But it's actually considerably nicer to its constitutency
than a lot of countries to which little Elian could have been
deported, whether or not he had a father there, without
the Wall Street Journal taking notice - except perhaps to
say "great - one less greaser!". Funny how all these
groups determined to tear the kid away from his father
so that he won't have to go back to a poor country seem
to be otherwised opposed to allowing open immigration
into the US from even poorer countries like Haiti.
For a child of Elian's age, the quality of love and attention
received from the family far, far outweighs the impact of
whatever political or economic system he lives under.
I nearly vomited when I saw the posting here saying
that it was immoral to send him back to a country where
there was no McDonalds. People who think that a
Happy Meal is a superior substitute for parental care
in a developing country deserve to be forcibly sterilized.
>>Tragedy is that he's been used for some ball game. Used beig the key
>>word. A boy should not be a tool to leviate political ambitions.
>>Clinton and others did well, thsis time. Hoping they could give back
>>to their parents all the children taken by the criminal maffia.
>
>This is not just "some ball game" and the only "political ambitions"
>involved are those of Clinton who has the need to suck up to Castro.
Is there any suble logic behind this statement, or does it just
make you feel good to parrot right-wing hate propaganda?
What *possible* need does Clinton have to suck up to Castro?
>This is a fight for freedom, very similar to the fight that those of us
>who speak out against cults are engaged in.
Whose freedom? Elain wanted to go home. Elian's dad
wants his son back. Thousands of orphans in Ethiopia
want to go somewhere, anywhere, where there is food
and water, as there is in the US. Whose freedom?
>Calling the Miami contingent "radicals" and "fanatics" is
>the same thing as cult apologists calling us names for speaking
>out against cults.
If putting ideology ahead of love isn't being "radical" and
"fanatic", just what would your criterion be?
>Clinton is an embarrassment and his conduct continues to be
>shameful. He is by far the most immoral president we have ever
>had
Your ignorance of life outside the US seems to be exceeded
only by your ignorance of American history.
JimDBB
>From: Monica Pignotti pign...@my-deja.com
> jim...@aol.com (JimDBB) wrote:
>>I agree with you about Clinton but this kid should have been returned
>>to his father some weeks ago. It is unconscionable how much money the
>>US has spent on this farce. The media will keep this going to fill up
>>their airtime until the next hokey drama.
>The father had only been in the United States for 2 weeks. If the
>father stays in the US I agree he should get custody, but if he goes
>back to Cuba where such rights do not exist. Cuba is a dictatorship
>that does not recognize human rights and it does not recognize a
>father's right. Castro can and will take Elian for their service at
>any time, just as surely as he were a Sea Org member and the father,
>who is an indoctrinated cult member, has nothing to say about it. The
>only difference is that Scientology has not yet reached the point where
>they shoot SO members for leaving.
>
>Monica Pignotti
Why should the father stay in the US? He and his kid should have been shipped
back by now. but meanwhile the sucker US taxpayer is paying for this very
expensive farce.
You state that Cuba and Castro do not recognize a father's right. And that
Castro can and will take elian for their service at any time. I don't believe
that this is true. What do you base this on... Elian's Cuban Miai relatives?
They are not exactly a source for reliaible information.
JImDBB
e...@some.where
get involved in this horseshit. :-\
monica's response was utterly moronic. and she is not the only one.
the funny thing about all this anti-castro hysteria is that she would
not at all object if the kid was from one of them there nice "free"
dictatorships that the u.s. so happily supports. you know the ones,
where kids get to freely die on the street.
ah but cuba... now cuba is a real threat to america and thus must be
starved out of existence. and that the kids father wants to live in
cuba? well, that must surely make him mr. el diablo hisself.
-ef
In article <8e834j$cbs$1...@nntp1.u.washington.edu>, ce...@u.washington.edu
(Ceon Ramon) wrote:
> >No, his father is not crazy and yes, Elian is his father's boy. The
> >point that keeps getting missed in all this, however, is that Cuba is a
> >dictatorship and will make Elian Castro's boy. Cuba does not recognize
> >a father's right. They will do with him as they please, irrespective
> >of the father's wishes.
>
> Assumptions. I've heard and read a lot of similar statements
> from friends, mailing lists, the newspapers. And you know what?
> I haven't seen one iota of credible evidence that this is anything
> that is going to happen.
>
> Hating Fidel as a cottage industry is up and booming even as the
> dotcoms are dropping like bowling balls from the top of the Empire
> State Building. Hating Fidel is easy when we know NOTHING about
> him, because our beloved country (cry) has anathematized him, made
> him a pariah, a boogieman, and so our sources of information are
> limited by "national interests" or otherwise censored (not to ignore
> the profound indifference of the American public and its aversity to
> reading anything about that boring little island, which our very own
> American government policies did the best they could to destitute and rape
> and loot while subjugating the people under the various REAL banana
> republics we supported and endorsed for several generations.)
>
> Oh, but they're COMMUNISTS! What else do we need to know? They're BAD,
> very very BAD, and no child should be sent back to suffer, SUFFER, under
> such BAD BAD OPPRESSIVE government.
>
> Children in the United States never NEVER suffer under BAD BAD government.
> They never go hungry, or sleep in the streets, nor is our illiteracy rate
> shameful in comparision with Cuba. No no no no! Don't listen! Cover
> your ears!
>
> Clearly Castro will make an anti-American icon of the boy, unlike of
> course our own pure and good government who will simply aid and abet
> his Miami relatives in their efforts to turn him into an anti-Castro icon.
>
>
> The fact is, the boy has a father, a father who wants him, a father
> who loves him and whom he loves. The fact is, the father is a Cuban who
> wants to return to his own country, taking his son with him. A son who
> was kidnapped by his mother in violation of her custody agreement simply
> because she wanted to be with her boyfriend in America, and who
> RISKED HER SON'S LIFE -- in case you weren't paying attention listen again:
> RISKED HER SON'S LIFE -- while STEALING HIM FROM HIS FATHER him in
> violation of her JOINT CUSTODY AGREEMENT.
>
> Anyone having trouble understanding this, or shall I capitalize some
> more words? :-)
>
> That blubbering cousin who has had to be hospitalized five times (or it
> it nine times by now?) for hysteria and exhaustion (and what a great
> caretaker she was) has spent five months with the kid. His father has
> spent six years with him.
>
> The kid wants to be with his father. His father wants to return to
> his own country.
>
> What the fuck is so hard to understand about this?
>
> arg and I promised myself I wouldn't get involved in this thread.
Rebecca Hartong
"Ceon Ramon" <ce...@u.washington.edu> wrote in message
news:8e834j$cbs$1...@nntp1.u.washington.edu...
> The kid wants to be with his father. His father wants to return to
> his own country.
>
> What the fuck is so hard to understand about this?
>
> arg and I promised myself I wouldn't get involved in this thread.
Heh.... well, it is very difficult to resist sometimes, isn't it?
At any rate-- Brava, Barbara! I agree with you completely. If I feel any
shame over this whole fiasco, it's shame that our government didn't return
this kid to his father sooner.
Rebecca Hartong
"frank howell" <fhow...@elp.rr.com> wrote in message
news:cETN4.273$x_....@typhoon.elp.rr.com...
> humbly apologize. did not realize so many posters on A.R.S. were in Miami
> during the raid, had been to Cuba, had spoken to the family,had spoken to
> the boy, and had spoken to the father...
None of that is necessary though, Frank, to see that whether it's the US
government keeping this child from his father (something that's already been
done) or Fidel Castro keeping the child from his father (something only
predicted--and only by some people)-- it's still wrong to keep the child
from his father. The only right thing to be done is to return the child to
his father and let *him* decide where they'll live. He's been living in Cuba
after all, so he should know -- if it's such a terrible place, surely he'll
choose to stay in the good old USA (where opportunities for Cuban immigrants
are soooooo plentiful....)
Monica Pignotti
<e...@some.where> wrote:
> barbara, i agree with you 100%. and me too, i promised myself not to
> get involved in this horseshit. :-\
>
> monica's response was utterly moronic. and she is not the only one.
So now you attack me for being "moronic" because I am opposed to
dictatorships and sending children back into the hands of dictators? I
guess this tells us where you stand on this issue.
> the funny thing about all this anti-castro hysteria is that she would
> not at all object if the kid was from one of them there nice "free"
> dictatorships that the u.s. so happily supports. you know the ones,
> where kids get to freely die on the street.
How do you know what I would or would not object to? That is not the
topic of this discussion.
> ah but cuba... now cuba is a real threat to america and thus must be
> starved out of existence. and that the kids father wants to live in
> cuba? well, that must surely make him mr. el diablo hisself.
No, what it makes him is a brainwashed cult member. The fact he has
the chance for freedom now that he is in the United States and chooses
not to seek asylum but to go back to Cuba tells me that he is under
cult mind control every bit as much as any Scientologist or Moonie is.
As an aside, I am amazed at the hypocracy of the left, who are always
wanting to portray themselves as "doves" and yet gave full support to
this horrendous act of violence and traumatization against Elian.
Don't ever make the mistake of thinking that your name-calling of me
as "mornic" or anything else will stop me from speaking out.
Monica Pignotti
"Rebecca Hartong" <praet...@mgfairfax.rr.com> wrote:
>He's been living in Cuba after all, so he should know -- if it's such
>a terrible place, surely he'll choose to stay in the good old USA
>(where opportunities for Cuban immigrants are soooooo plentiful....)
That's what the cult apologists say about people who choose to say in
Scientology's RPF. After all, many Scientology Sea Org members choose
to stay in spite of multiple stints on the RPF, so how could it
possibly be so bad? If Scientology and the Sea Org are so bad, why
don't they choose to go back to the good old wog world? The defectors
from Scientology and Cuba are just a bunch of hysterical fanatics in
speaking out against such abusive violations of human rights.
The propensity of Americans who have never lived under totalitarianism
to deny the human rights abuses that do exist, never ceases to amaze me.
Monica Pignotti
"frank howell" <fhow...@elp.rr.com> wrote:
> Well gosh, I have posted to the effect that this is all DOJ's fault
on oh so
> many levels. Let's play 10 q's.....
>
>1)If they intended to treat Elian as an "illegal" they should have
>sent him to Gitmo. Why did DOJ bring him here in the first place?
>
> 2)If the Miami family were such arch-criminals why weren't any of them
> arrested?
Because they're about as "crimminal" as the SPs who are fighting the
CofS.
> 3)No one(amongst the go Mr. Reno crowd) seems to want to face the
> "likely"(argued I know) scenario that the boy is in for some serious
> deprogramming why?
Because people don't want to believe that mind control and human rights
violations exists. They want a nice, neat answer based on the black
and white view that a boy always belongs with his father, even if the
father were in a concentration camp.
>4)If Fidel's last name were Hubbard would that alarm more people
>here? I mean Fidel is such a "good" leader he took one of the most
>fertile areas of the world and managed to make it non self sufficient
>in food.
Well, some people are not bothered by Hubbard's human rights abuses
either, so at least these people are being consistent, which is more
than we can say for some of the critics here.
<snip, some good points he made>
At least it's good to see that someone here has the guts to speak out
to a totally clueless majority with a minority opinion on this issue.
Monica Pignotti
I agree with you that the government should not be paying for this,
especially when the father or the Miami relatives are perfectly capable
of providing a home for Elian until this gets settled.
> You state that Cuba and Castro do not recognize a father's right. And
that
> Castro can and will take elian for their service at any time. I
don't believe
> that this is true. What do you base this on... Elian's Cuban Miai
relatives?
> They are not exactly a source for reliaible information.
No, I base this on a statement made by Fidel Castro's daughter, who is
a former member of the cult of Cuba and is now living in exile. It is
well known that this is how the Cuban government under Castro works.
The child is the property of the state and will remain so as long as he
lives there. This is what Communism is all about.
Ian Rennie
> In article <260420002005090451%e...@some.where>,
> <e...@some.where> wrote:
> > barbara, i agree with you 100%. and me too, i promised myself not to
> > get involved in this horseshit. :-\
> >
> > monica's response was utterly moronic. and she is not the only one.
>
> So now you attack me for being "moronic" because I am opposed to
> dictatorships and sending children back into the hands of dictators? I
> guess this tells us where you stand on this issue.
straw man.
that wasn't what he was attacking you for.
If America was so opposed to people being sent 'into the hands of
dictators', why are virtually all incomers from Cuba illegal immigrants?
Also, wouldn't you agree that it is up to the child's father and legal
guardian where he and his son live?
> > the funny thing about all this anti-castro hysteria is that she would
> > not at all object if the kid was from one of them there nice "free"
> > dictatorships that the u.s. so happily supports. you know the ones,
> > where kids get to freely die on the street.
>
> How do you know what I would or would not object to? That is not the
> topic of this discussion.
would you be raising this same debate had the child been about to return
to Chile during the reign of Pinochet?
> > ah but cuba... now cuba is a real threat to america and thus must be
> > starved out of existence. and that the kids father wants to live in
> > cuba? well, that must surely make him mr. el diablo hisself.
>
> No, what it makes him is a brainwashed cult member. The fact he has
> the chance for freedom now that he is in the United States and chooses
> not to seek asylum but to go back to Cuba tells me that he is under
> cult mind control every bit as much as any Scientologist or Moonie is.
I think the assumption that everyone in their right mind wants to live in
America is downright offensive.
> As an aside, I am amazed at the hypocracy of the left, who are always
> wanting to portray themselves as "doves" and yet gave full support to
> this horrendous act of violence and traumatization against Elian.
which would be more traumatic
1) taking the child in a raid and returning him to his father
2) never letting him see his father again
Ian Rennie
> In article <BcUN4.60832$cZ.1...@typhoon.southeast.rr.com>,
> "Rebecca Hartong" <praet...@mgfairfax.rr.com> wrote:
> >He's been living in Cuba after all, so he should know -- if it's such
> >a terrible place, surely he'll choose to stay in the good old USA
> >(where opportunities for Cuban immigrants are soooooo plentiful....)
>
> That's what the cult apologists say about people who choose to say in
> Scientology's RPF. After all, many Scientology Sea Org members choose
> to stay in spite of multiple stints on the RPF, so how could it
> possibly be so bad? If Scientology and the Sea Org are so bad, why
> don't they choose to go back to the good old wog world? The defectors
> from Scientology and Cuba are just a bunch of hysterical fanatics in
> speaking out against such abusive violations of human rights.
the difference:
people who leave the Church of Scientology are able to recieve counselling
and have organisations like the Lisa McPherson Trust as a safety net
People who leave Cuba for america are illegal immigrants.
Also, you are misinterpreting the situation. Elian's mother was not
fleeing cuba because of a terrible situation, she was going to live with
her boyfriend in Miami. And incidentally abducting her child at the same
time.
Do you support Elian's right to be with his father?
Rebecca Hartong
> Well gosh, I have posted to the effect that this is all DOJ's fault on oh
so
> many levels. Let's play 10 q's.....
>
> 1)If they intended to treat Elian as an "illegal" they should have sent
him
> to Gitmo. Why did DOJ bring him here in the first place?
Pure PR They should have put that kid on the first plane back to Cuba but,
by the time decision-time had come around the story of the kid's rescue had
made the news and... well...mistakes were made.
> 2)If the Miami family were such arch-criminals why weren't any of them
> arrested?
I haven't seen anyone claiming the Miami family was composed of
arch-criminals.
> 3)No one(amongst the go Mr. Reno crowd) seems to want to face the
> "likely"(argued I know) scenario that the boy is in for some serious
> deprogramming why?
Cute ad hominem, Frank... not only is Reno a bad Attny Genl in your opinion,
but...gosh darn it!...she just not very feminine!...and every knows how
deeply relevant *that* is. Perhaps it's because not many of the "Mr. Reno"
crowd are convinced that the kid *is* in for "serious deprogramming." No
doubt, he'll be treated like a celebrity once he's back in Cuba
("son-of-the-motherland rescued from the American infidels!")--for a while
at least--but, eventually, that will fade and he'll have to make the tough
adjustment to being just a regular kid in Cuba.
> 4)If Fidel's last name were Hubbard would that alarm more people here? I
> mean Fidel is such a "good" leader he took one of the most fertile areas
of
> the world and managed to make it non self sufficient in food.
I don't think there are many critics of Scientology who would agree that the
children of Scientologists should be kept from their parents, so I'm not
clear on what point you're trying to make here. Fidel Castro is not the
child's father. Almost certainly, Castro will use the boy's return as a
photo op and will make the most of it for publicity and political purposes
but...so what? Our own politicians have done the same. In a year or two,
neither Fidel Castro nor most Americans will have any particular interest in
Elian Gonzalez at all.
And as for Cuba's agricultural situation, you might want to familiarize
yourself with the history of the term "banana republic."
I've snipped the rest.... Didn't you just write that you wanted this thread
to end?
See what happens when you tinker around in the lab? Sometimes you create
monsters and they get loose and run around the countryside terrorizing the
villagers.... ;-)
Rebecca Hartong
"Monica Pignotti" <pign...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8e98dh$khm$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <BcUN4.60832$cZ.1...@typhoon.southeast.rr.com>,
> "Rebecca Hartong" <praet...@mgfairfax.rr.com> wrote:
> >He's been living in Cuba after all, so he should know -- if it's such
> >a terrible place, surely he'll choose to stay in the good old USA
> >(where opportunities for Cuban immigrants are soooooo plentiful....)
>
> That's what the cult apologists say about people who choose to say in
> Scientology's RPF. After all, many Scientology Sea Org members choose
> to stay in spite of multiple stints on the RPF, so how could it
> possibly be so bad?
Clearly, for some people the RPF is not so bad. See, Monica, I'm of the
opinion that people can *choose* to do things that I might personally
consider unwise and this is not a symptom of "mind control".
> The propensity of Americans who have never lived under totalitarianism
> to deny the human rights abuses that do exist, never ceases to amaze me.
The propensity of Americans who have never lived under totalitarianism to
claim that human rights abuses are rampant in all non-democratic regimes
never ceases to amaze ME.
Monica Pignotti
<Pine.SOL.3.95L.100042...@mailer.york.ac.uk>,
> > "Rebecca Hartong" <praet...@mgfairfax.rr.com> wrote:
> > >He's been living in Cuba after all, so he should know -- if it's
such
> > >a terrible place, surely he'll choose to stay in the good old USA
> > >(where opportunities for Cuban immigrants are soooooo
plentiful....)
> >
> > That's what the cult apologists say about people who choose to say
in
> > Scientology's RPF. After all, many Scientology Sea Org members
choose
> > to stay in spite of multiple stints on the RPF, so how could it
> > don't they choose to go back to the good old wog world? The
defectors
> > from Scientology and Cuba are just a bunch of hysterical fanatics in
> > speaking out against such abusive violations of human rights.
>
> the difference:
>
> people who leave the Church of Scientology are able to recieve
counselling
> and have organisations like the Lisa McPherson Trust as a safety net
>
> People who leave Cuba for america are illegal immigrants.
Yes, that's precisely my point. The Cubans are much worse off.
However, in our country we do have such as thing as political asylum for
people defecting from countries where human rights abuses exist. I
don't see why Elian as a child shouldn't have the same protection as an
adult seeking asylum.
> Also, you are misinterpreting the situation. Elian's mother was not
> fleeing cuba because of a terrible situation, she was going to live
with
> her boyfriend in Miami. And incidentally abducting her child at the
same
> time.
Just because she was going to be with her boyfriend doesn't preclude the
possibility that she was also going to be in a free country. It could
very well be that she was going to be with her boyfriend because he was
an American citizen and this was an opportunity for her to become a
citizen of the US. This sort of marital arrangement is very common with
immigrants.
> Do you support Elian's right to be with his father?
Yes, but Cuba does not recognize parental rights. I recognize Elian's
right to be with his father in the US, not to be taken back to a
country where his human rights will be violated and where parental
rights do not exist. This is the context that is repeatedly being
dropped here. There are no individual rights, including parental
rights, in Cuba.
Monica Pignotti
"Rebecca Hartong" <praet...@mgfairfax.rr.com> wrote:
>
> "Monica Pignotti" <pign...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> news:8e98dh$khm$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > "Rebecca Hartong" <praet...@mgfairfax.rr.com> wrote:
> > >He's been living in Cuba after all, so he should know -- if it's
such
> > >a terrible place, surely he'll choose to stay in the good old USA
> > >(where opportunities for Cuban immigrants are soooooo
plentiful....)
> >
> > That's what the cult apologists say about people who choose to say
in
> > Scientology's RPF. After all, many Scientology Sea Org members
choose
> > to stay in spite of multiple stints on the RPF, so how could it
> > possibly be so bad?
>
the
> opinion that people can *choose* to do things that I might personally
> consider unwise and this is not a symptom of "mind control".
Well, I'll give it to you that you're consistent in taking the apologist
position for both the CofS and for Communist dictatorships.
> > The propensity of Americans who have never lived under
totalitarianism
> > to deny the human rights abuses that do exist, never ceases to amaze
me.
>
>The propensity of Americans who have never lived under totalitarianism
>to claim that human rights abuses are rampant in all non-democratic
>regimes never ceases to amaze ME.
That wouldn't be me because I experienced 6 years living under a
Totalitarian regime -- something you'll obviously never understand.
Monica Pignotti
>
>
--
Monica Pignotti
Disclaimer: The statements I make on this forum
are an expression of my individual opinions. I
do not represent any institution here.
Monica Pignotti
<Pine.SOL.3.95L.100042...@mailer.york.ac.uk>,
Ian Rennie <ir...@york.ac.uk> wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Apr 2000, Monica Pignotti wrote:
>
> > <e...@some.where> wrote:
> > > barbara, i agree with you 100%. and me too, i promised myself not
to
> > > get involved in this horseshit. :-\
> > >
> > > monica's response was utterly moronic. and she is not the only
one.
> >
>> So now you attack me for being "moronic" because I am opposed to
>>dictatorships and sending children back into the hands of dictators?
>> I guess this tells us where you stand on this issue.
>
> straw man.
No, that is the issue here that people seem to be wanting to avoid
dealing with.
> that wasn't what he was attacking you for.
>
>If America was so opposed to people being sent 'into the hands of
>dictators', why are virtually all incomers from Cuba illegal
>immigrants?
What does this have to do with anything I have said? Majority opinion
does not always equal what is the truth.
> Also, wouldn't you agree that it is up to the child's father and legal
> guardian where he and his son live?
The context you and others are constantly dropping here is that Castro's
Cuba will be Elian's "legal guardian" if he returns, not his father.
I didn't say that so please stop putting words in my mouth and raising
straw man issues. It's very clear from the above statement that I
was referring specifically to Cuba, not other countries. What I said is
that a person who "willingly" returns to a dictatorship with well known
human rights abuses is under mind control, every bit as much as any cult
member. I didn't say that all other countries are dictatorships. I
said specifically that Cuba is.
> which would be more traumatic
>
> 1) taking the child in a raid and returning him to his father
> 2) never letting him see his father again
That wasn't the choice at all -- you are putting up a false dichotomy
here, buying right into what Reno and Clinton want you to. The fact is
that according to Janet Reno's own negotiator and friend Aaron Podhurst,
who has been repeatedly interviewed on this and negotiating with the
Miami relatives at the time of the raid, they were very close to working
out a deal that would have resulted in a peaceful resolution of the
situation. This would indicate to me that Janet Reno lied about the
state of negotiations. The family had accepted the terms, and it was
the government that called them at 4AM with last-minute demands that
they did not have time to respond to. This is crimminal, outrageous
behavior on the part of our government. The heavy weapons and further
traumatization of this child was completely unnecessary. I am amazed
that the hypocracy of the "left" who promote themselves as peace-loving
doves when I have yet to hear any voice of protest or outrage for how
this was done. Even if they want to see Elian sent back to Cuba with
his father, the manner in which he was taken was unnecessarily violent
and deserves condemnation, as a separate issue from the question of who
and where Elian should be.
I'm no fan of the Republican candidate for President and what I was
planning to do prior to this in the upcoming election was to just write
in the name of some third-party candidate since the choice between
Bush and Gore was so pitiful. What happened with Elian has completely
changed this for me. Even though I still am no fan of George W. Bush's,
I will go out and vote for him because I want to do everything possible
to see Clinton's administration and everyone connected with it out of
the White House. The sooner they are gone from there, the better.
Monica Pignotti
"Rebecca Hartong" <praet...@mgfairfax.rr.com> wrote:
<snip>
>I don't think there are many critics of Scientology who would agree
>that the children of Scientologists should be kept from their parents,
Not from public Scientologists but a very good case could be made for a
custody fight that involved a grandparent or other non-Scientologist
relative seeking custody of a child living with Sea Org parents, given
the living conditions such a child is faced with. On the Apollo, there
were adolescents ages 12-17 who were not attending school, but were
deprived of an education and instead subject to round-the-clock slave
labor and punishments that included being locked up in the chain locker.
Parents who would allow their children to be in this situation are
unfit parents and custody should be taken away from them and given to
other relatives or lacking that, to foster parents, IMO.
>so I'm not clear on what point you're trying to make here. Fidel Castro
>is not the child's father.
You just don't get it, do you? In Cuba, Fidel Castro is the one who has
ultimate say in this child's life, not his father. He will be sent away
from his family at age 12 as all Cuban boys are to be made into a slave
of his regime. According to a statement made by Castro's daughter, what
will likely happen is that upon return to Cuba, Elian will be taken to a
re-education camp for "deprogramming", with or without his father's
consent. For all practical purposes, in Cuba, Fidel Castro is Elian's
"father". That's the point that's being missed here.
Monica Pignotti
Ian Rennie
> Rebecca why would people have risked death to cross the Berlin Wall if
> communism were so grand?
um... because what was being practiced in East Germany was no longer
communism?
Tell me, have you any evidence that there are more human rights abuses in
Cuba than in, say, chile?
I have seen evidence that Nicaragua under Daniel Ortega had a far lower
level of poverty and abuse than Nicaragua under Samosa
> Rebecca Hartong <praet...@mgfairfax.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:CjWN4.61015$cZ.1...@typhoon.southeast.rr.com...
> >
> > "Monica Pignotti" <pign...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> > news:8e98dh$khm$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > > In article <BcUN4.60832$cZ.1...@typhoon.southeast.rr.com>,
> > > "Rebecca Hartong" <praet...@mgfairfax.rr.com> wrote:
> > > >He's been living in Cuba after all, so he should know -- if it's such
> > > >a terrible place, surely he'll choose to stay in the good old USA
> > > >(where opportunities for Cuban immigrants are soooooo plentiful....)
> > >
> > > That's what the cult apologists say about people who choose to say in
> > > Scientology's RPF. After all, many Scientology Sea Org members choose
> > > to stay in spite of multiple stints on the RPF, so how could it
> > > possibly be so bad?
> >
> > Clearly, for some people the RPF is not so bad. See, Monica, I'm of the
> > opinion that people can *choose* to do things that I might personally
> > consider unwise and this is not a symptom of "mind control".
> >
Ian Rennie
I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that Cuba had done away with paternity rights.
Silly me. I say again: would you not agree that as Elian's father is his
legal guardian, it is up to him where he and his son live?
> > > > the funny thing about all this anti-castro hysteria is that she
> would
> > > > not at all object if the kid was from one of them there nice
> "free"
> > > > dictatorships that the u.s. so happily supports. you know the
> ones,
> > > > where kids get to freely die on the street.
> > >
> > > How do you know what I would or would not object to? That is not
> the
> > > topic of this discussion.
> >
> > would you be raising this same debate had the child been about to
> return
> > to Chile during the reign of Pinochet?
no answer, I note.
> >
> > > > ah but cuba... now cuba is a real threat to america and thus must
> be
> > > > starved out of existence. and that the kids father wants to live
> in
> > > > cuba? well, that must surely make him mr. el diablo hisself.
> > >
> >>No, what it makes him is a brainwashed cult member. The fact he has
> >>the chance for freedom now that he is in the United States and
> >>chooses not to seek asylum but to go back to Cuba tells me that he is
> >>under cult mind control every bit as much as any Scientologist or
> >>Moonie is.
> >
> >I think the assumption that everyone in their right mind wants to live
> >in America is downright offensive.
>
> I didn't say that so please stop putting words in my mouth and raising
> straw man issues.
you said "The fact he has the chance for freedom now that he is in the
United States and chooses not to seek asylum but to go back to Cuba tells
me that he is under cult mind control every bit as much as any
Scientologist or Moonie is."
this implies that every cuban who does not want to leave is brainwashed.
This is offensive.
> It's very clear from the above statement that I
> was referring specifically to Cuba, not other countries. What I said is
> that a person who "willingly" returns to a dictatorship with well known
> human rights abuses is under mind control, every bit as much as any cult
> member. I didn't say that all other countries are dictatorships. I
> said specifically that Cuba is.
hey, just a thought - what if the father likes living in Cuba? Some
people do, surprisingly enough.
Also, if the united states cares so much about the conditions of people in
Cuba, why are sanctions still in place? The same question could be
applied to Iraq. By alienating Cuba, you turn the US into the foreign
devil, you entrench Castro further in power.
I haven't seen a cuban newscast, but I would be willing to bet that the
public view of this situation in Cuba is that Elian was being kept from
his father, largely because of the US. Does this do anything to promote
harmony between the two countries? No. Does it help fix Castro in
position? Yes.
e...@some.where
<pign...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> I will go out and vote for him because I want to do everything possible
> to see Clinton's administration and everyone connected with it out of
> the White House. The sooner they are gone from there, the better.
how nice. i have by now lost all respect for you.
you are about to vote for a functional idiot because you hate what you
so misguidedly perceive to be communism. i guess you and bush deserve
eachother.
why don't you check bush's "human rights" record in texas. but i guess
that doesn't matter. cause, you know, it's democracy.
i called your political pronouncements moronic; i'll stand by that
evaluation. you know absolutely nothing about communism.
btw, communism is not a cult. it is a misguided political system that
cannot work. that it does not work can be directly attributable to the
non-existence of its prime premise; that of innate human altruism.
human beings simply put do not wish to share, they wish to hoard. thus,
communism as a social system falls down for in order to achieve any
continuance it must be imposed and enforced from above.
this is not to say that some sort of humanistic socialist system would
not suceed in cuba, were the economic factors in place to do so. but
they are not, because of the american embargo cuba is very poor.
(this does not preclude that there are certain benefits under
communism. free healthcare and education being two of them)
i *have* lived under communism. *and* enlightened socialism. *and* a
dictatorship. *and* capitalism. i doubt if you have lived anywhere but
in the states.
a cult is something else entirely.
-ef
ref...@bway.net
<pign...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>In article <260420002005090451%e...@some.where>,
> <e...@some.where> wrote:
>> barbara, i agree with you 100%. and me too, i promised myself not to
>> get involved in this horseshit. :-\
>>
>> monica's response was utterly moronic. and she is not the only one.
>
>So now you attack me for being "moronic" because I am opposed to
>dictatorships and sending children back into the hands of dictators? I
>guess this tells us where you stand on this issue.
>
>> the funny thing about all this anti-castro hysteria is that she would
>> not at all object if the kid was from one of them there nice "free"
>> dictatorships that the u.s. so happily supports. you know the ones,
>> where kids get to freely die on the street.
>
>How do you know what I would or would not object to? That is not the
>topic of this discussion.
>
>> ah but cuba... now cuba is a real threat to america and thus must be
>> starved out of existence. and that the kids father wants to live in
>> cuba? well, that must surely make him mr. el diablo hisself.
>
>No, what it makes him is a brainwashed cult member. The fact he has
>the chance for freedom now that he is in the United States and chooses
>not to seek asylum but to go back to Cuba tells me that he is under
>cult mind control every bit as much as any Scientologist or Moonie is.
Thank you, Monica, for this PERFECT example of the fallacy of the
"cult mind control" argument. It's the same fallacy you've used over
and over again in your efforts to defend the scam you perpetrate on
the unsuspecting victims ... err, customers ... of your
tap-tap-tapping pseudotherapy.
You are so certain that your opinion of Cuba (and of Scientology, and
of the role of government) is the ONLY correct way to think, you
automatically assume that anyone who does not share your opinion
has to be under the eeeeevil influence of some nefarious, brainwashing
devil.
Has it ever occurred to you that your own opinion is not the ONLY
correct opinion? Has it ever occurred to you that what's important
to you isn't just as important to others? Has it ever occurred to you
that what's important to others might be quite meaningless to you?
I don't believe you've ever stopped to consider that.
No, it's far more neat and tidy for you to jump to the unfounded
conclusion that anyone whose own opinion varies from yours has
been brainwashed. It's a quick, simple solution for any quandary
you might face. "I'm right and you're wrong; therefore, you must
be brainwashed." Cute trick, Monica, but not profound, honest,
or real.
>As an aside, I am amazed at the hypocracy of the left, who are always
>wanting to portray themselves as "doves" and yet gave full support to
>this horrendous act of violence and traumatization against Elian.
Why don't you try calling up the Wye River Plantation and doing a
little Voice Technology[tm] on Elian? Surely, if you are so certain
your pseudotherapy works as well as you claim it does, he should
be cured of any ill effects in a matter of 5 minutes or so.
>Don't ever make the mistake of thinking that your name-calling of me
>as "mornic" or anything else will stop me from speaking out.
The only thing I've seen that stops you from speaking out is pointing
out your errors to you, Monica. You persisted in defending your
tap-tap-tapping pseudotherapy long after you announced (more than
once) that you would no longer discuss the subject. Finally, when
you were backed into a corner with nowhere to run, and after
releasing a barrage of insulting ad hominem attacks upon anyone
who questioned you, you stopped.
Let's see how long you continue insisting that all Cuban citizens
are brainwashed zombies.
Diane Richardson
ref...@bway.net
Monica Pignotti
ref...@bway.net wrote:
>
> Thank you, Monica, for this PERFECT example of the fallacy of the
> "cult mind control" argument. It's the same fallacy you've used over
> and over again in your efforts to defend the scam you perpetrate on
> the unsuspecting victims ... err, customers ... of your
> tap-tap-tapping pseudotherapy.
> You are so certain that your opinion of Cuba (and of Scientology, and
> of the role of government) is the ONLY correct way to think, you
> automatically assume that anyone who does not share your opinion
> has to be under the eeeeevil influence of some nefarious, brainwashing
> devil.
Leave it to you to twist everything I say and relate it to TFT, which
you seem to be obsessed with. No, I most certainly do NOT think that
anyone who disagrees with me about TFT is under mind control. I do,
however, think that people who live under dictatorships and choose not
to leave have been subjected to mind control, as have battered wives who
"choose" to put up with endless abuse from their partners, as have
people who choose to stay and put up with Sea Org abuse. These systems
all have something in common and this is the existence and use of mind
control techniques. One example was given to me recently by a former
Cuban citizen. He told me of the manipulation of the children there
with a system of rewards and punishments. For instance, the children in
school are told to pray to God for candy. When no candy is forthcoming,
the "teacher" then tells the children to ask Castro for candy, at which
time she produces the candy for the children. The "lesson" here for the
children is that Castro will give them what they want, not God. This is
a classic example of what Lifton calls mystical manipulation -- the
purposeful engineering of events to make it appear that the cult or its
leaders will bring them good things. It's also good old fashioned
reward and punishment conditioning. It's mind control and that's just
one small example.
> Has it ever occurred to you that your own opinion is not the ONLY
> correct opinion? Has it ever occurred to you that what's important
> to you isn't just as important to others? Has it ever occurred to you
> that what's important to others might be quite meaningless to you?
> I don't believe you've ever stopped to consider that.
If people want to disagree with me as to which therapy is the best, or
as to which political party is better, or anything like that, I DO NOT
consider this mind control You are twisting this and raising a straw
man issue here. It's got nothing at all to do with disagreeing with the
beliefs. If someone took TFT and made people believe in it through the
use of mind control techniques, I would condemn that also as a cult,
even though I agree with it -- this hasn't happened, of course, but if
it ever did, that would be my stance. This has nothing to do with
agreement or disagreement with my beliefs. It has to do with my
assessment of how the person came to hold the beliefs they do, not
whether the beliefs are right or wrong. There is a ton of evidence for
human rights violations that exist both in Scientology and in Cuba and
this is what I am condemning, not the beliefs. You could have a
Communist cult, a fascist cult, or even a Libertarian cult, if the
leaders are using mind control on the people.
> No, it's far more neat and tidy for you to jump to the unfounded
> conclusion that anyone whose own opinion varies from yours has
> been brainwashed. It's a quick, simple solution for any quandary
> you might face. "I'm right and you're wrong; therefore, you must
> be brainwashed." Cute trick, Monica, but not profound, honest,
> or real.
That's not what I'm saying. You have disagreed with me plenty of times,
but I never said you are brainwashed, have I? Can you show me any
post I've done here where I've ever accused you of being brainwashed?
Of course not. I disagree with you but I don't think you're brainwashed
or under mind control. I think you came to your conclusions of your own
free will. It's not about disagreeing with me.
> >As an aside, I am amazed at the hypocracy of the left, who are always
> >wanting to portray themselves as "doves" and yet gave full support to
> >this horrendous act of violence and traumatization against Elian.
>
> Why don't you try calling up the Wye River Plantation and doing a
> little Voice Technology[tm] on Elian? Surely, if you are so certain
> your pseudotherapy works as well as you claim it does, he should
> be cured of any ill effects in a matter of 5 minutes or so.
I would be happy to treat Elian, Marisleysis or any of the Miami
relatives for free, if they asked for my services and yes, I do believe
that based on my past experience in helping victims of trauma, this
would help them. It would help Marisleysis to calm down in the face
of a truly horrendous situation where she has every right to be
angry and emotional, but where her emotionality is hurting her case
for further contact with Elian. This would be a perfect example of
how she could be helped tremendously by getting some emotional relief
and it would be my pleasure to help her in any way I could.
> >Don't ever make the mistake of thinking that your name-calling of me
> >as "mornic" or anything else will stop me from speaking out.
>
> The only thing I've seen that stops you from speaking out is pointing
> out your errors to you, Monica. You persisted in defending your
> tap-tap-tapping pseudotherapy long after you announced (more than
> once) that you would no longer discuss the subject. Finally, when
> you were backed into a corner with nowhere to run, and after
> releasing a barrage of insulting ad hominem attacks upon anyone
> who questioned you, you stopped.
No, I stopped because I realized that no matter what evidence I
presented, you would twist it, just as you are doing now and so it was
a waste of my time, which is far better spent with people who sincerely
want to learn about it.
> Let's see how long you continue insisting that all Cuban citizens
> are brainwashed zombies.
Communist and fascist dictatorships as well as political cults do have
many of the same characteristics as religious cults have. Margaret
Singer and Janja Lalich have also written about this. Janja is the
survivor of a Communist politcal cult and has a great deal to say on
this issue -- see her chapter in Langone's book, "A little carrot and
alot of stick". The only difference is that oppressive politcal systems
have political power that cults do not have. If you think Cuba is so
great, why do people get killed when they try to escape? Enough said.
Monica Pignotti
<e...@some.where> wrote:
> In article <8e9h6s$u6f$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Monica Pignotti
> <pign...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> you are about to vote for a functional idiot because you hate what you
> so misguidedly perceive to be communism. i guess you and bush deserve
> eachother.
>
> why don't you check bush's "human rights" record in texas. but i guess
> that doesn't matter. cause, you know, it's democracy.
I know something about this, such as the fact that he refused to grant a
pardon to a battered wife on death row, and I think that is horrible. I
am also sickened by his alignment with the Fundamentalists who want to
mix church and state. I said I was no fan of his, but as distasteful as
it is, I will vote for him as the lesser of 2 evils. The White House
needs to be rid of the entire Clinton gang and I will do all I can
(which means voting) to see that it happens.
> i called your political pronouncements moronic; i'll stand by that
> evaluation. you know absolutely nothing about communism.
>
> btw, communism is not a cult. it is a misguided political system that
> cannot work. that it does not work can be directly attributable to the
> non-existence of its prime premise; that of innate human altruism.
> human beings simply put do not wish to share, they wish to hoard.
thus,
> communism as a social system falls down for in order to achieve any
> continuance it must be imposed and enforced from above.
I didn't say that "communism", per se, is a cult. I said that certain
communist political regimes are cults, such as Castro's Cuba. There are
also fascist cults, such as the Nazi party and there could actually be a
cult with any political system, given the right group dynamics.
> this is not to say that some sort of humanistic socialist system would
> not suceed in cuba, were the economic factors in place to do so. but
> they are not, because of the american embargo cuba is very poor.
>
> (this does not preclude that there are certain benefits under
> communism. free healthcare and education being two of them)
>
> i *have* lived under communism. *and* enlightened socialism. *and* a
> dictatorship. *and* capitalism. i doubt if you have lived anywhere but
> in the states.
Yes, I have lived outside the US. When I was on the Apollo, we were
sailing on the coast of Spain and Portugal, and then the Carribean. We
were completely outside the jurisdiction of the US. I was even in
Portugal whan a political Coup took place and Communists attacked the
Apollo, throwing rocks at the people because they thought we were CIA!
> a cult is something else entirely.
I think you should read some of the writings of people like Margaret
Singer and Janja Lalich, who was herself a member of a political cult.
There are many parallels with cults.
e...@some.where
<pign...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> I know something about this, such as the fact that he refused to grant a
> pardon to a battered wife on death row, and I think that is horrible. I
> am also sickened by his alignment with the Fundamentalists who want to
> mix church and state. I said I was no fan of his, but as distasteful as
> it is, I will vote for him as the lesser of 2 evils. The White House
> needs to be rid of the entire Clinton gang and I will do all I can
> (which means voting) to see that it happens.
the mind truly boggles at your display of logic.
> Yes, I have lived outside the US. When I was on the Apollo, we were
> sailing on the coast of Spain and Portugal, and then the Carribean. We
> were completely outside the jurisdiction of the US. I was even in
> Portugal whan a political Coup took place and Communists attacked the
> Apollo, throwing rocks at the people because they thought we were CIA!
i see. so you consider your sojourn on an american cult-ship to equate
to residency in another country?? well, that is novel.
the mind re-boggles.
and the eeevil communists -they were all communists, huh- stoned the
cult-ship? well, good for them, i say.
none of what you say entitles you to any expertise whatsoever in the
matters you seek to address. mostly what one notices is that you tend
to believe anything anyone tells you without that one can discern any
need on your part to research the actual facts.
i believe that is called being extremely gullible. and not so little
prone to wishful imaginings.
-ef
Monica Pignotti
<e...@some.where> wrote:
> In article <8e9tnf$cvd$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Monica Pignotti
> <pign...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> > I know something about this, such as the fact that he refused to
grant a
> > pardon to a battered wife on death row, and I think that is
horrible. I
> > am also sickened by his alignment with the Fundamentalists who want
to
> > mix church and state. I said I was no fan of his, but as distasteful
as
> > it is, I will vote for him as the lesser of 2 evils. The White
House
> > needs to be rid of the entire Clinton gang and I will do all I can
> > (which means voting) to see that it happens.
>
> the mind truly boggles at your display of logic.
At least he understands the difference between living in a relatively
free country and living under a dictatorship, which the Clinton gang
apparently does not.
> > Yes, I have lived outside the US. When I was on the Apollo, we were
> > sailing on the coast of Spain and Portugal, and then the Carribean.
We
> > were completely outside the jurisdiction of the US. I was even in
> > Portugal whan a political Coup took place and Communists attacked
the
> > Apollo, throwing rocks at the people because they thought we were
CIA!
>
> i see. so you consider your sojourn on an american cult-ship to equate
> to residency in another country?? well, that is novel.
> the mind re-boggles.
No, Portugal, last time I checked, is not part of the US and I was there
and in Spain for nearly 3 years.
> and the eeevil communists -they were all communists, huh- stoned the
> cult-ship? well, good for them, i say.
They were so stupid that they thought Scientology was CIA!
> none of what you say entitles you to any expertise whatsoever in the
> matters you seek to address. mostly what one notices is that you tend
> to believe anything anyone tells you without that one can discern any
> need on your part to research the actual facts.
Wrong because I'm not believing a word you or any of the Clinton
administration has said.
> i believe that is called being extremely gullible. and not so little
> prone to wishful imaginings.
If you believe Clinton, you're the one who's gullible.
Rebecca Hartong
> Rebecca why would people have risked death to cross the Berlin Wall if
> communism were so grand?
Who's claiming communism is grand? There's a whole lot of territory between
being "grand" and being "pure hell" and a lot of that territory is purely
subjective.
frank howell
come to my conclusions.... man amazing all those exiles are lying about
Cuban Govt....news:eb5O4.62103$cZ.1...@typhoon.southeast.rr.com...
Rebecca Hartong
> In article <CjWN4.61015$cZ.1...@typhoon.southeast.rr.com>,
> >The propensity of Americans who have never lived under totalitarianism
> >to claim that human rights abuses are rampant in all non-democratic
> >regimes never ceases to amaze ME.
>
> That wouldn't be me because I experienced 6 years living under a
> Totalitarian regime -- something you'll obviously never understand.
A "totalitarian regime" from which you walked away when you chose to no
longer be a member.... You may call that "totalitarianism" but it's not what
most people think of when they use that word.
Jack Craver
>In article <%2UN4.60830$cZ.1...@typhoon.southeast.rr.com>,
>Absolutely. The spectacle of my entire government being held hostage
>by a group of second- and third-generation Americans who have never even
>been in Cuba but have been convinced by our pandering pols that they
>are a supra-national group with special privileges because of their
>successful Hate Fidel campaign has convinced me that it's way past
>time we lift the trade embargo and re-establish relations with Cuba.
>
And most of the exile Cuban community agrees with you. Poll after poll
has shown that a majority of exiles want normalized relations with
Cuba, and an end to the embargo.
There is a political spectrum down here that has been changing for
many years, with most exiles now favoring dialog with Castro. There
are still fanatics however. There are still paramilitary organizations
that spend their weekends in the everglades, "practicing" for the day
when they will militarily re-take Cuba. There are still a vocal group
that insist that all evil flows from Castro and his regime. They see
conspiracies everywhere and rhetoric is the tool of choice for
creating fear and loathing. They will often tell you how brainwashed
the Cuban people are under Castro's communist control. But these
people are now only a small part of the exile community and not
representative at all.
>And they can lift the sanctions on Iraq while they're at it.
>
>Tom Lehrer said he stopped writing his delicious satirical songs
>because the reality of political life in America out-absurded anything
>he could possibly create. ("Out-absurded"? gak)
>
>--Barbara
>DO NOT REPLY TO ABOVE ADDRESS; USE tw...@scn.org
Best of luck
jack
Jack Craver
<pign...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>In article <39049B9E...@pacbell.net>,
> barb <bw...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>> Fredric L. Rice wrote:
>> > "It doesn't give me displeasure to hear of a virgin being raped. The
>> > lot of women is to be fornicated."-L. Ron Hubbard, "Affirmations"
>1947
>> > http://www.skeptictank.org/ http://www.xenu.net/
>http://holysmoke.org/
>>
>> They got the kid out safely. The raid was a direct result of the Miami
>> family's uncooperative attitude. They're the ones who should be
>ashamed,
>> parading that poor kid about at all hours to further their own
>political
>> agenda. Disgusting!
>
>You've bought into Janet Reno's lies. The fact is that according to
>one of the main negotiators who was interviewed on the Today show and
>exposed her. He was speaking to the family on the phone at the time of
>the government assualt, they were very close to a deal. Even though
>this person was a friend of Janet Reno's and praised her, he couldn't
>understand why she chose to invade this family when they were so
>close. What's more, the way they did it was inexcusable.
>
The horror of the early morning raid and the issue of custody are
easily separated. Many people, myself included, feel that while the
raid was overkill, the parent should be granted custody of his child.
>I'm with Fred on this. I am ashamed to be an American after what
>happened. It would appear that the majority of the American public
>does not understand what Elian is going back to if he is sent back to
>Cuba. What people are not understanding with all this talk about a
>parent's rights is that parents have no rights in Cuba.
"parents have no rights in Cuba" - what exactly does this mean?
>Elian is the
>property of Fidel Castro's Cuba who can do with him whatever they
>wish. Castro's daughter said in an interview that he will probably be
>sent to an institution that will "deprogram" him, with or without his
>father's consent.
>
>Would you support a child being sent back to a Scientology Sea Org
>family if you knew he was going to the RPF upon return? I doubt many
>people here would. I think that if this were a story about Scientology
>and there were relatives outside of it wanting to rescue a child by
>gaining custody, most people here would support them. Well, sending
>this child back to Cuba is many times worse, since in Cuba the Castro
>cult is the law and there is no way people can leave. At least it's
>not against the law to leave Scientology.
>
>Shame on our government and the clueless idiots who are running it,
>especially Bill Clinton. First he kisses up to Scientology and now
>he's kissing up to Castro. Disgusting.
John or Claire Swazey
Ceon Ramon wrote:
>
> In article <8e982o$k0m$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> Monica Pignotti <pign...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> >In article <260420002005090451%e...@some.where>,
> > <e...@some.where> wrote:
> [...]
> >
> >> ah but cuba... now cuba is a real threat to america and thus must be
> >> starved out of existence. and that the kids father wants to live in
> >> cuba? well, that must surely make him mr. el diablo hisself.
> >
> >No, what it makes him is a brainwashed cult member. The fact he has
> >the chance for freedom now that he is in the United States and chooses
> >not to seek asylum but to go back to Cuba tells me that he is under
> >cult mind control every bit as much as any Scientologist or Moonie is.
>
> Oh, please. Cuba is his _home_. He has a life there. Odd as it may
> seem, not everyone in the world is convinced that America is a
> mecca of enlightenment and liberty for which they would immediately
> and eagerly trade in love of their own country. A homeland
> isn't a used car. Solzhenitzyn didn't particularly admire the U.S. or
> its values even though he lived here for more than twenty years, and he
> returned to Russia at the first opportunity. Was he brainwashed, or did
> he simply have different values than you do?
>
> The U.S. is my home, my country; I was born here, my ancestors are
> buried here, my friends and family are here, my entire history is here.
> I feel both obligated to it and responsible for it. I don't want to live
> somewhere else even if that hypothetical somewhere else were able to offer
> me great rewards and gifts.
>
> Is it so entirely beyond your ability to imagine that he wants to return
> to Cuba not because he's brainwashed [tm] but because it's his home and
> he wants to go home?
I couldn't agree more.
C
Rebecca Jo McLaughlin
> I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that Cuba had done away with paternity rights.
> Silly me.
Sure. Didn't you know? When Juan Miguel and his wife came to the US
to get Elian, they picked up a random kid at the giant Castro Kid Complex
and borrowed him for photo-ops while they were here. You have to sign 'em
out and pay a deposit.
<Sheesh.>
Beck
Baba ROM DOS
But it's important to remember just who fled Cuba in
the first place - those with a lot to lose under a communist
regime. These included right-wing-to-moderate political
activists, sure, but also the Mafioso plutocracy that ran
the country before the revolution (and, one could say,
sowed the seeds for the revolution). In Cuba, they
were on top. In Miami, they still had money, but they
would never have the social standing and political
influence that they had in Cuba in the Good Old Days.
Hating Castro for them, and for some of their descendents,
isn't a matter of political ideology - though they'll use that
as an excuse to get their way - it's a matter of personal pride
and vengence.
Several generations later, the majority of Americans
of Cuban origin would like to see the stupid embargo
lifted and relations normalised. But the old heads of
the wealthy families, which is to say those who have
the bucks to buy political influence, couldn't care less
what's good for America, or what's good for Cuba, or
what's good for the Cuban people. They will carry their
vendetta to the grave.
Monica Pignotti
100...@mailer.york.ac.uk>,
Ian Rennie <ir...@york.ac.uk> wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Apr 2000, Monica Pignotti wrote:
>
> > In article
> > <Pine.SOL.3.95L.100042...@mailer.york.ac.uk>,
> > Ian Rennie <ir...@york.ac.uk> wrote:
> > >
> > > > In article <260420002005090451%e...@some.where>,
> > > > <e...@some.where> wrote:
not
> > to
> > > > > get involved in this horseshit. :-\
> > > > >
> > > > > monica's response was utterly moronic. and she is not the only
> > one.
> > > >
> > >> So now you attack me for being "moronic" because I am opposed to
> > >>dictatorships and sending children back into the hands of
dictators?
> > >> I guess this tells us where you stand on this issue.
> > >
> >
> > No, that is the issue here that people seem to be wanting to avoid
> > dealing with.
> >
> > > that wasn't what he was attacking you for.
> > >
> > >If America was so opposed to people being sent 'into the hands of
> > >dictators', why are virtually all incomers from Cuba illegal
> > >immigrants?
> >
> > What does this have to do with anything I have said? Majority
opinion
> > does not always equal what is the truth.
> >
> > > Also, wouldn't you agree that it is up to the child's father and
legal
> > > guardian where he and his son live?
> >
> > The context you and others are constantly dropping here is that
Castro's
> > Cuba will be Elian's "legal guardian" if he returns, not his father.
>
rights.
his
> legal guardian, it is up to him where he and his son live?
Perhaps you are not aware of the fact that Cuban boys are taken from
their families at age 12 to service the dictatorship and the families
have no say about whether or not this happens?
> > > > > the funny thing about all this anti-castro hysteria is that
she
> > would
> > > > > not at all object if the kid was from one of them there nice
> > "free"
> > > > > dictatorships that the u.s. so happily supports. you know the
> > ones,
> > > > > where kids get to freely die on the street.
> > > >
> > > > How do you know what I would or would not object to? That is
not
> > the
> > > > topic of this discussion.
> > >
> > > would you be raising this same debate had the child been about to
> > return
> > > to Chile during the reign of Pinochet?
>
> no answer, I note.
No answer because it is completely irrelevant to this discussion. We
are not discussing Chile. We are discussing Cuba. For the record, I
am against human rights abuses wherever they occur and your attempt to
portray this as otherwise is pathetic.
> > >
> > > > > ah but cuba... now cuba is a real threat to america and thus
must
> > be
> > > > > starved out of existence. and that the kids father wants to
live
> > in
> > > > > cuba? well, that must surely make him mr. el diablo hisself.
> > > >
> > >>No, what it makes him is a brainwashed cult member. The fact he
has
> > >>the chance for freedom now that he is in the United States and
> > >>chooses not to seek asylum but to go back to Cuba tells me that
he is
> > >>under cult mind control every bit as much as any Scientologist or
> > >>Moonie is.
> > >
> > >I think the assumption that everyone in their right mind wants to
live
> > >in America is downright offensive.
> >
> > I didn't say that so please stop putting words in my mouth and
raising
> > straw man issues.
>
> you said "The fact he has the chance for freedom now that he is in the
> United States and chooses not to seek asylum but to go back to Cuba
tells
> me that he is under cult mind control every bit as much as any
> Scientologist or Moonie is."
Note that I specifically mentioned Cuba. I did not say that everyone
in their right mind only wants to live in America. If he had been from
another country that was not a dictatorship, I'd have no problem with
his going back there.
> this implies that every cuban who does not want to leave is
brainwashed.
> This is offensive.
I believe that it is a healthy person's natural inclination to want to
be free and Cuba is not free.
> > It's very clear from the above statement that I
> > was referring specifically to Cuba, not other countries. What I
said is
> > that a person who "willingly" returns to a dictatorship with well
known
> > human rights abuses is under mind control, every bit as much as any
cult
> > member. I didn't say that all other countries are dictatorships. I
> > said specifically that Cuba is.
>
> hey, just a thought - what if the father likes living in Cuba? Some
> people do, surprisingly enough.
I don't believe that anyone in their right mind would "like" living
under a dictatorship and living their life in submission to a sociopath
such as Castro.
> Also, if the united states cares so much about the conditions of
people in
> Cuba, why are sanctions still in place? The same question could be
> applied to Iraq. By alienating Cuba, you turn the US into the foreign
> devil, you entrench Castro further in power.
Wrong. Cuba ought not to be given any legitimacy.
> I haven't seen a cuban newscast, but I would be willing to bet that
the
> public view of this situation in Cuba is that Elian was being kept
from
> his father, largely because of the US. Does this do anything to
promote
> harmony between the two countries? No. Does it help fix Castro in
> position? Yes.
I'm sure the Cuban propoganda has been very anti-US, no doubt there.
Have you ever wondered why there are no Cubans posting on the
internet? Do you know what would happen if a Cuban did post on the
internet and criticize Castro?
Monica Pignotti
--
Monica Pignotti
Disclaimer: The statements I make on this forum
are an expression of my individual opinions. I
do not represent any institution here.
Diane Richardson
<pign...@my-deja.com> wrote:
[snip Monica's verbal diarrhea]
>These systems
>all have something in common and this is the existence and use of mind
>control techniques. One example was given to me recently by a former
>Cuban citizen. He told me of the manipulation of the children there
>with a system of rewards and punishments. For instance, the children in
>school are told to pray to God for candy. When no candy is forthcoming,
>the "teacher" then tells the children to ask Castro for candy, at which
>time she produces the candy for the children. The "lesson" here for the
>children is that Castro will give them what they want, not God.
I realize you are utterly dependent on such anecdotal accounts
to "prove" the points you wish to make -- whether it be a point about
the scam you perpetrate for $100/hour on vulnerable people or the
eeeeeeevils of living under Fidel Castro's regime. The only problem
with second-hand anecdotal accounts is that they can easily be
twisted (or downright invented) to "prove" whatever hobby horse it
is that you choose to ride at the moment.
In other words, Monica, I don't believe your handy little anecdote.
I doubt many others here believe it either.
>This is
>a classic example of what Lifton calls mystical manipulation -- the
>purposeful engineering of events to make it appear that the cult or its
>leaders will bring them good things. It's also good old fashioned
>reward and punishment conditioning. It's mind control and that's just
>one small example.
The problem is that your "one small example" cannot be verified.
Care to have that friend of yours appear here and give us particulars,
answer questions, etc.? Of course not. Your cute little anecdote is
just as unverifiable as the "scientific" claims you make for your
tap-tap-tapping scam, or the "fact" that your other friend suffered
loss of long-term memory because of ECT.
[snip]
>Communist and fascist dictatorships as well as political cults do have
>many of the same characteristics as religious cults have. Margaret
>Singer and Janja Lalich have also written about this.
Yes, and they've written a book about "Crazy Therapies," warning
people about the scams people like you perpetrate on unsuspecting
victims by labeling chicanery as "psychotherapy." I'm appalled that
you see nothing wrong with using these people as an appeal to
authority in one breath and tear them down in the next.
>Janja is the
>survivor of a Communist politcal cult and has a great deal to say on
>this issue -- see her chapter in Langone's book, "A little carrot and
>alot of stick".
I've read it. I don't think much of it.
[more of Monica's verbal diarrhea snipped]
Diane Richardson
ref...@bway.net
frank howell
communists is ex-mafiosi, or a rabid right-winger. Perfect logic there.
Baba ROM DOS <Baba_R...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8ebg5...@enews2.newsguy.com...
Monica Pignotti
ref...@bway.net wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Apr 2000 17:27:27 GMT, Monica Pignotti
> <pign...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> [snip Monica's verbal diarrhea]
Nonsense. You snipped points you would like to ignore.
> >These systems
> >all have something in common and this is the existence and use of
mind
> >control techniques. One example was given to me recently by a former
> >Cuban citizen. He told me of the manipulation of the children there
> >with a system of rewards and punishments. For instance, the
children in
> >school are told to pray to God for candy. When no candy is
forthcoming,
> >the "teacher" then tells the children to ask Castro for candy, at
which
> >time she produces the candy for the children. The "lesson" here for
the
> >children is that Castro will give them what they want, not God.
>
> I realize you are utterly dependent on such anecdotal accounts
> to "prove" the points you wish to make -- whether it be a point about
> the scam you perpetrate for $100/hour on vulnerable people or the
> eeeeeeevils of living under Fidel Castro's regime. The only problem
> with second-hand anecdotal accounts is that they can easily be
> twisted (or downright invented) to "prove" whatever hobby horse it
> is that you choose to ride at the moment.
>
> In other words, Monica, I don't believe your handy little anecdote.
> I doubt many others here believe it either.
Much of what we know about the atrocities in concentration camps is
also based on what you derisively call "anecdotes" of people who
survived them. Would you dismiss those "anecdotes" as well and say
that the Holocaust never happened or that survivors are exaggerating?
You are dangerously close to this line of thinking in what you are
suggesting here, that survivors who give accounts of their experiences
that are remarkably consistent with one another not be believed. What
do you want? Double blind studies on whether or not this dictatorship
exists or not? Maybe you think we should take a group of newborn
infants and randomly assign half of them to Castro and half to live in
the US and then do a controlled experiment on which kids come out
better? Do you think that would be ethical or would you condone such a
study in the name of "science"?
>>This is
>>a classic example of what Lifton calls mystical manipulation -- the
>>purposeful engineering of events to make it appear that the cult or
its
> >leaders will bring them good things. It's also good old fashioned
> >reward and punishment conditioning. It's mind control and that's
just
> >one small example.
>
> The problem is that your "one small example" cannot be verified.
> Care to have that friend of yours appear here and give us particulars,
> answer questions, etc.? Of course not. Your cute little anecdote is
> just as unverifiable as the "scientific" claims you make for your
> tap-tap-tapping scam, or the "fact" that your other friend suffered
> loss of long-term memory because of ECT.
There are plenty of Cuban defectors that give very similar and
consistent accounts of what it's like to live under Castro. We are not
talking about testing the efficacy of a therapy here, so stop changing
the subject. We're talking about verifying the abuses and manipulation
that exist in a Totalitarian society. Lifton's writings were
originally about the political system of Communist China, not cults.
The fact is that people living under Castro are not free to express
their opinions. Do you see any of them on line criticizing Castro and
the Cuban government? No, and you're not likely to.
> [snip]
>
> >Communist and fascist dictatorships as well as political cults do
have
> >many of the same characteristics as religious cults have. Margaret
> >Singer and Janja Lalich have also written about this.
>
> Yes, and they've written a book about "Crazy Therapies," warning
> people about the scams people like you perpetrate on unsuspecting
> victims by labeling chicanery as "psychotherapy." I'm appalled that
> you see nothing wrong with using these people as an appeal to
> authority in one breath and tear them down in the next.
You've just conveniently changed the subject. I'm not going there.
We're talking specifically about the fact that political cults do exist
and that they use mind control techniques to control people, so stop
dodging the issue by issuing irrelevant attacks on me.
The fact of the matter is that I agree with Margaret Singer on some
topics but not on others. You seem to think that if I don't agree with
every word she ever uttered, that I am being hypocritical. Margaret
Singer would be the last person in the world to expect that of anyone.
She is not my guru -- I have no gurus -- so why is it so difficult for
you to understand that I read her words and think critically about
them, accepting what I agree with and rejecting what I don't agree
with? That is what Margaret Singer has called "discernment". You
might choose to characterize my disagreeing with her about certain
points in her Crazy Therapies book as "tearing her down" but I doubt
that she would.
Monica Pignotti
"frank howell" <fhow...@elp.rr.com> wrote:
>Well never having lived in it either I can only look at economic data
>and come to my conclusions.... man amazing all those exiles are lying
>about Cuban Govt....
Right, just like all the survivors of the RPF are "lying" about the Sea
Org. After all, who would believe a defector? It makes much more
sense to believe a sociopathic dictator like Castro than it does
hundreds of thousands of people who escaped. Or better yet, talk to
the people who are living in Cuba currently and report being "happy"
there. That's really great evidence that the defectors are lying. So
what if they'll get shot if they give anything other than praise for
the Castro dictatorship? We have to believe them and if we don't and
choose instead to believe the people who have escaped and are free to
speak out, we're just being narrow-minded bigots. By the line of
thinking being displayed here by some people, we'd have to deny the
holocaust as well, because much of it is "anecdotal". If nothing else,
this thread has been enlightening for me as to the current state of
denial people are in about what goes on under dictatorships.
Rebecca Hartong
> In article <39095971...@enews.newsguy.com>,
> Much of what we know about the atrocities in concentration camps is
> also based on what you derisively call "anecdotes" of people who
> survived them. Would you dismiss those "anecdotes" as well and say
> that the Holocaust never happened or that survivors are exaggerating?
The difference is that those anecdotes are backed up by actual physical
evidence. There are actual photographs of piled up bodies, actual records of
huge shipments of poisonous gas being delivered to the camps...
This is an important point you seem to miss with some regularity. Anecdotes
alone aren't worth much in terms of proof of anything but, back those
anecdotes up with physical evidence, then you've got something.
Baba ROM DOS
>Thanks, glad to know you want to sterilize me.
Hey, if the shoe fits...
>I was not saying a happy meal is a substitute for parenting. I was
pointing
>out Cuba's 1200 calorie a day national diet.
And the US has an epidemic of obesity and related cardiovascular
diseases. Several species have been shown to live longer on a
severely calorie-restricted diet. The jury is still out on human beings,
but I'll wager that a person would live a longer and healthier life
(if not necessarily a happier one) on a high-quality 1200 calorie
a day diet than on a diet composed of 100% Happy Meals. But I will
politely decline to participate in either experimental group, thank you!
>(CIA World FactBook)
If you think the CIA is a reliable source of information about Cuba, go
ask a veteran of the Bay of Pigs. And if the Cubans are undernourished,
might this not have just the least little bit to do with the fact that the
largest
food exporter in the region embargoes the export of food to Cuba, while
subsidizing exports elsewhere? And if poor Elian was going to suffer
so much from the Cuban diet, why is the infant mortality rate there lower
than any other Latin American country, including those with MacDonalds
franchises? (See the web site of the Canadian Medical Association,
http://www.cma.ca/cmaj/vol-157/issue-3/0281.htm )
>Unfortunately I already have a son. Care to come try to take him away?
I am stunned that you can make the above statement in the context
of your arguents that Elian should be taken away from his own father.
You are either one of the biggest fools or one of the biggest hypocrites
I have ever encountered on usenet. And that's saying something.
>regards,
>Frank
>
>p.s. Somehow I have the cuourage not to have a pseudonym for my views, why
>don't you put your name to yours?
Perhaps because, instead of posting ill-informed and off-topic
political diatribes to a.r.s., I've been known to post articles that
would have a non-zero probability of attracting the ire of the
"Church" of Scientology[tm]?
Franky, I think *you* should post under a pseudonym. It will
save you embarassment later in life, when people you meet
search the web for your name and find the drivel you've
been posting. Mark my words.
----- Original Message -----
From: Baba ROM DOS <Baba_R...@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2000 9:30 AM
Subject: Re: Ashamed to be an American
Monica Pignotti wrote in message <8e6fm1$j46$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>In article <8e3577$12nf$1...@news5.isdnet.net>,
> "roger gonnet" <roger....@worldnet.fr> wrote:
>> Chris Leithiser <clei...@bc.cc.ca.us> a écrit dans le message :
>> 39048C10...@bc.cc.ca.us...
>> > "Fredric L. Rice" wrote:
>> > >
>> > > After what happened in Florida this Saturday, I'm ashamed
>> > > to be an American.
>> >
>> > I'm not. The kid was retrieved--safely--from the kidnappers.
Calmness. "Kidnappers" is just a propaganda word here.
But he *was* retrieved from the clutches of a group of people
with no legal or moral right to custody, who seem to place
their political agenda ahead of the boy's well-being.
>> > Will you be ashamed when, after $cientology reaches its E-O-C and
>> > imprisons the kids at Gold, the police try to rescue them?
>>
>> For that one , I think that US president and other american did the
>> correct thing.
>>
>> The boy was his father's boy, and his father does not look at all a
>> crazy guy, so what?
>
>No, his father is not crazy and yes, Elian is his father's boy. The
>point that keeps getting missed in all this, however, is that Cuba is a
>dictatorship and will make Elian Castro's boy. Cuba does not recognize
>a father's right. They will do with him as they please, irrespective
>of the father's wishes.
Living overseas, it wasn't until this rubbish spilled over into
a.r.s. that I began to fathom the degree to which this has
been hyped-up by the media, and the degree to which
usually thoughtful posters to this newsgroup have been
reduced to parroting propaganda.
I respectfully submit that until one has actually spend some
time travelling in less-than-democratic countries, one has
no business commenting on whether or not it's moral to
allow someone to live there. Yeah, the Cuban regime
sucks. But it's actually considerably nicer to its constitutency
than a lot of countries to which little Elian could have been
deported, whether or not he had a father there, without
the Wall Street Journal taking notice - except perhaps to
say "great - one less greaser!". Funny how all these
groups determined to tear the kid away from his father
so that he won't have to go back to a poor country seem
to be otherwised opposed to allowing open immigration
into the US from even poorer countries like Haiti.
For a child of Elian's age, the quality of love and attention
received from the family far, far outweighs the impact of
whatever political or economic system he lives under.
I nearly vomited when I saw the posting here saying
that it was immoral to send him back to a country where
there was no McDonalds. People who think that a
Happy Meal is a superior substitute for parental care
in a developing country deserve to be forcibly sterilized.
>>Tragedy is that he's been used for some ball game. Used beig the key
>>word. A boy should not be a tool to leviate political ambitions.
>>Clinton and others did well, thsis time. Hoping they could give back
>>to their parents all the children taken by the criminal maffia.
>
>This is not just "some ball game" and the only "political ambitions"
>involved are those of Clinton who has the need to suck up to Castro.
Is there any suble logic behind this statement, or does it just
make you feel good to parrot right-wing hate propaganda?
What *possible* need does Clinton have to suck up to Castro?
>This is a fight for freedom, very similar to the fight that those of us
>who speak out against cults are engaged in.
Whose freedom? Elain wanted to go home. Elian's dad
wants his son back. Thousands of orphans in Ethiopia
want to go somewhere, anywhere, where there is food
and water, as there is in the US. Whose freedom?
>Calling the Miami contingent "radicals" and "fanatics" is
>the same thing as cult apologists calling us names for speaking
>out against cults.
If putting ideology ahead of love isn't being "radical" and
"fanatic", just what would your criterion be?
>Clinton is an embarrassment and his conduct continues to be
>shameful. He is by far the most immoral president we have ever
>had
Your ignorance of life outside the US seems to be exceeded
only by your ignorance of American history.
frank howell
also read the UN reports. I guess any data that does not support your
Liberal lefty views must be invalid. Hey Jenny Craig should use your
diatribe and open a shop in Havana..... "Try the Castro diet plan... loose
weight promote true economic democracy...."news:8ec82...@enews3.newsguy.com...
frank howell
frank howell <fhow...@elp.rr.com> wrote in message
news:QPiO4.279$x_....@typhoon.elp.rr.com...
frank howell
You seem to think that threats of violence are perfectly fine in the case of
Juan Miguel. You think the raid was perfectly justified despite the lack of
threats of violence by the Miami family, and as it turns out the firepower
to commit the violence you accuse them of fostering. You make the holly
jolly assertion on sterilization and then assert that I am the person who
would be percieved as a fool by a laymen? You believe Cuba to be a
latin-american mecca, and think the rest of the region is a disease ridden
infant killing machine.
<>
Whether or not my views are popular with your crowd, whether or not I face
any retribution for my postings, whether or not you choose to acknowledge
any of the sorces I read, I do know one thing you are a coward. You post
smugly from behind a pseudonym and threaten peoples reproductive future. I
have been overseas to places that I wish were better for the people that
live there, have you?
<>
I think you are one of the many in the left that sit smugly, listen to your
politicians, and cannot fathom that someone can have an honestly different
opinion on an issue than you and your ilk. It is very easy to disregard the
views of your opponent when you resort to demonization.
<>
Gee, Frank doesn't think Juan Miguel should have the child-he must be a
fucking asshole right wing, psychopathic, would be kidnapper. Yep way to
address your opponent. You are definitely a world class thinker yourself.
<>
I laugh at your contention that Cuba is OK. If that were the case there
would not be people dying to get out.(quite literally) Have you been to
Cuba? Can you discount (with references)the assertions of the exiles? No
instead you say, "They cannot be listened to.... after all they are exiles."
Pardon me if I don't immediately change my views.
<>
You still didn't answer my questions...
1)DOJ is working on a deal for a "Kidnapped" child they are close to sealing
it. The father is told that DOJ might want to strike into the house(where
the "kidnappers are "allegedly"armed)with a doj assault team. What kind of
a parent goes, "Yep-That's great... hope the boy isn't caught in the
crossfire- go ahead."?
2) Since it has come out that DOJ may ave gotten the warrant under false
auspices are you saying that the ends justify the means, or is it only the
citizens that have to follow our laws? (Reno probably mickey-moused the type
of warrant it was getting) (Guess the New York Times is also a CIA front,
huh?)
3)Why did DOJ bring him here in the first place if they intended to simply
deport him?(He should have gone to Gitmo)
4)If the Miami relatives are "kidnappers" why did they not get charged with
any crime? I mean "Kidnapping" is a felony... why is DOJ letting them walk
away?
<>
I am sure you are far too correct in your views to even acknowledge my
questions.(after all I am the one that asked them they must be invalid) I am
intellecctually able enough to seperate the DOJ's conduct from the custody
issue. Are you? Whether or not Juan Miguel gets to take his son back to
Mecca is immaterial to the overkill displayed by the DOJ in it's raid.
Humbled and entertained by your diuretic diatribe,
Frank Howell
frank howell <fhow...@elp.rr.com> wrote in message
news:hTiO4.280$x_....@typhoon.elp.rr.com...
ref...@bway.net
<pign...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>In article <39095971...@enews.newsguy.com>,
> ref...@bway.net wrote:
>> On Thu, 27 Apr 2000 17:27:27 GMT, Monica Pignotti
>> <pign...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>>
>> [snip Monica's verbal diarrhea]
>
>Nonsense. You snipped points you would like to ignore.
Monica, unlike the hypocrisy and dishonety you've displayed
with increasing frequency on this newsgroup, I prefer not to
fill screen after screen with off-topic diatribes. You claim you
are a Libertarian, yet your anti-communist screeds portray you
for exactly what you are -- a born-again Joe McCarthy bigot.
I'm surprised you haven't asserted the "fact" that all communists
spout tails and horns and carry pitchforks. Do you put your
victims ... err, clients ... through a HUAC sec-check before you
teach them how to tap themselves?
Of course not. The personal anecdotes are backed up by solid,
factual evidence in the form of film footage, sworn testimony during
the Nuremberg trials, and contemporaneous accounts by objective
observers. You offer nothing more than hearsay from an unnamed
(and more than likely non-existent) source. Where's your supportive
documentation? Oh, you don't have any. And why, exactly, is
anyone supposed to believe you?
>You are dangerously close to this line of thinking in what you are
>suggesting here, that survivors who give accounts of their experiences
>that are remarkably consistent with one another not be believed.
What survivor are you speaking about, Monica? The imaginary
survivor you invented to back up your spurious statements about
Cuba?
A friend of mine just told me there are dangerously poisonous
spiders that live underneath toilet seats, Monica. Should I believe
every urban legend that comes down the pike? No thanks.
Should I expect you to believe every urban legend that comes
down the pike? You're indicating that you do, and that you
expect others to take your outrageous statements at face value.
So much for your claim to be a skeptic.
>What
>do you want? Double blind studies on whether or not this dictatorship
>exists or not?
No, I want the name, address, and phone number of the "friend" you
claim told you that urban legend.
>Maybe you think we should take a group of newborn
>infants and randomly assign half of them to Castro and half to live in
>the US and then do a controlled experiment on which kids come out
>better? Do you think that would be ethical or would you condone such a
>study in the name of "science"?
I realize you're trying to be witty and snide with this comment,
Monica. All you end up doing is making yourself look even more
ridiculous.
If you claim that life under Fidel Castro is an unbearable burden for
any child to endure, you must believe it is the duty of the U.S.
government to rescue every child in Cuba and bring him to a free
life in the United States. Once you've evacuated all the children
from Cuba, I'd suggest you target North Korea next. Once you've
rescued all the North Korean children from a fate worse than death,
it's on to the big one -- the People's Republic of China.
>>>This is
>>>a classic example of what Lifton calls mystical manipulation -- the
>>>purposeful engineering of events to make it appear that the cult or
>its
>> >leaders will bring them good things. It's also good old fashioned
>> >reward and punishment conditioning. It's mind control and that's
>just
>> >one small example.
>>
>> The problem is that your "one small example" cannot be verified.
>> Care to have that friend of yours appear here and give us particulars,
>> answer questions, etc.? Of course not. Your cute little anecdote is
>> just as unverifiable as the "scientific" claims you make for your
>> tap-tap-tapping scam, or the "fact" that your other friend suffered
>> loss of long-term memory because of ECT.
>
>There are plenty of Cuban defectors that give very similar and
>consistent accounts of what it's like to live under Castro.
Yes, and the people I've heard that sort of garbage from were from
families and sycophants of Battista and his Mafia-connected regime.
They have a right to portray Castro as a demon -- after all, they had
a privileged life before Castro came along. They've set up their
kingdom in Miami now and brook no more dissent there than they
did when they ruled Havana with a totalitarian iron glove.
>We are not
>talking about testing the efficacy of a therapy here, so stop changing
>the subject. We're talking about verifying the abuses and manipulation
>that exist in a Totalitarian society. Lifton's writings were
>originally about the political system of Communist China, not cults.
And Robert Jay Lifton's writings show quite clearly that attempts
at mind control were an utter failure. Rather than spouting off
about the man's works I'd suggest you read them, Monica. You
might learn something that could help you.
>The fact is that people living under Castro are not free to express
>their opinions. Do you see any of them on line criticizing Castro and
>the Cuban government? No, and you're not likely to.
There are *many* areas in the world where freedoms are abridged,
Monica. Castro's Cuba is no more of a rigid and restrictive regime
than the one that exists in Saudi Arabia, for example. Should we
rescue all Saudi children from such a horrible existence, too?
>> [snip]
>>
>> >Communist and fascist dictatorships as well as political cults do
>have
>> >many of the same characteristics as religious cults have. Margaret
>> >Singer and Janja Lalich have also written about this.
>>
>> Yes, and they've written a book about "Crazy Therapies," warning
>> people about the scams people like you perpetrate on unsuspecting
>> victims by labeling chicanery as "psychotherapy." I'm appalled that
>> you see nothing wrong with using these people as an appeal to
>> authority in one breath and tear them down in the next.
>
>You've just conveniently changed the subject. I'm not going there.
I understand, Monica. You're tap-tap-tapping therapy has been
soundly debunked here. You have run out of defenses. There's
nothing left but for you to admit that you accept your guru Roger
Callahan's claims based on faith alone, just as you once accepted
L. Ron Hubbard's claims. I'll be waiting to see when you finally
"see the light" and realize Roger Callahan brainwashed you, too.
Then you can go into business "exit counseling" your former
TFT pseudotherapy clients.
By the way, several years back you were going through the same
"Just you wait, a definitive study is about to be published" exercise
about "cult mind control." Whatever happened to that study, Monica?
Why hasn't it appeared? Will your definitive study about TFT meet
the same fate as the definitive study about "cult mind control"?
>We're talking specifically about the fact that political cults do exist
>and that they use mind control techniques to control people, so stop
>dodging the issue by issuing irrelevant attacks on me.
There's nothing whatever irrelevant about my comments, Monica.
Although you claim to be a skeptic and a critical thinker, you have
been providing extraordinarily sharp examples of someone who
refuses to examine her own emotionally-tinged beliefs. You once
did that about scientology. You now do that about TFT and the
eeeevils of communism.
>The fact of the matter is that I agree with Margaret Singer on some
>topics but not on others. You seem to think that if I don't agree with
>every word she ever uttered, that I am being hypocritical.
You are indeed being hypocritical. Margaret Singer uses the same
criteria to criticize "crazy therapies" (like your own
tap-tap-tapping) as she does to criticize cults. You refuse to look
at the evidence she presents when she criticizes "crazy therapies,"
but heartily endorse it when she criticizes cults. Could it be that
your own economic interests have a lot to do with your refusal to
look at Margaret Singer's arguments objectively? I think that's the
case.
>Margaret
>Singer would be the last person in the world to expect that of anyone.
>She is not my guru -- I have no gurus -- so why is it so difficult for
>you to understand that I read her words and think critically about
>them, accepting what I agree with and rejecting what I don't agree
>with?
The problem is that Margaret Singer presents ONE argument.
You accept that argument when it serves your financial interests (as
an exit counselor). You reject that argument when it threatens your
financial interests (as a scam-artist engaged in foisting off a "crazy
therapy" to unsuspecting dupes). It doesn't exactly take higher-order
thinking skills to see through your rationalizations.
>That is what Margaret Singer has called "discernment". You
>might choose to characterize my disagreeing with her about certain
>points in her Crazy Therapies book as "tearing her down" but I doubt
>that she would.
I think she would agree wholeheartedly with me in condemning your
preying upon vulnerable people by offering them an untested,
unscientific, hokus-pocus ridden scam while calling it "therapy."
Keep it up, Monica. The more you post, the more people will
see you for what you really are.
Diane Richardson
ref...@bway.net
Baba ROM DOS
>Oh Baba, you amuse me tell me oh wise sage... what would be a valid source
I
>also read the UN reports.
Post quotes or URLs. That's what real grown-ups do here,
if they want to be taken seriously. And when I say quotes,
I don't mean quotes from op-ed columns that say "according
to UN reports". Any idiot can make those up. And many
idiots do.
>I guess any data that does not support your Liberal lefty views must
>be invalid.
You have no idea what my views are. You only know that
I consider your "views" to be incoherent and internally
inconsistent, as I and a number of others have demonstrated,
and which you have been utterly unable to refute. With
each posting you degenerate and regress further into
ad-hominems, straw-men, and ultimately playground
insults. Go find a children's newsgroup if you can't
handle real debate. I don't give a flying fuck if you are
a "lefty"or a "righty". You just don't make any sense.
>Hey Jenny Craig should use your
>diatribe and open a shop in Havana..... "Try the Castro diet plan... loose
>weight promote true economic democracy...."
Well, that certainly proves your point, doesn't it?
Baba ROM DOS
tangle with such a sharp-witted debater. I'm cut to the quick.
My entire chain of evidence and reasoning has been shattered!
When your son grows up, and decides to have political
views different from your own, are you going to "sterilize"
*him* with "an extendable baton"? That will sure prove to
him that you are right, now won't it?
frank howell wrote in message ...
frank howell
my child.... who has made no such threat Babu?news:8ecj9...@enews3.newsguy.com...
Captain Nerd
Hash: SHA1
In article <8eck2h$ivc$1...@nntp1.u.washington.edu>, ce...@u.washington.edu
(Ceon Ramon) wrote:
> In article <qv0igskikr2a65436...@4ax.com>,
> Jack Craver <inm...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> >On 27 Apr 2000 20:22:36 GMT, ce...@u.washington.edu (Ceon Ramon) wrote:
> >
> >>In article <%2UN4.60830$cZ.1...@typhoon.southeast.rr.com>,
> >>Rebecca Hartong <praet...@mgfairfax.rr.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>"Ceon Ramon" <ce...@u.washington.edu> wrote in message
> >>>news:8e834j$cbs$1...@nntp1.u.washington.edu...
> >>>
> >>>> The kid wants to be with his father. His father wants to return to
> >>>> his own country.
> >>>>
> >>>> What the fuck is so hard to understand about this?
> >>>>
> >>>> arg and I promised myself I wouldn't get involved in this thread.
> >>>
> >>>Heh.... well, it is very difficult to resist sometimes, isn't it?
> >>>At any rate-- Brava, Barbara! I agree with you completely. If I feel
> >>>any shame over this whole fiasco, it's shame that our government didn't
> >>>return this kid to his father sooner.
> >>
> >>Absolutely. The spectacle of my entire government being held hostage
> >>by a group of second- and third-generation Americans who have never even
> >>been in Cuba but have been convinced by our pandering pols that they
> >>are a supra-national group with special privileges because of their
> >>successful Hate Fidel campaign has convinced me that it's way past
> >>time we lift the trade embargo and re-establish relations with Cuba.
> >>
> >
> >And most of the exile Cuban community agrees with you. Poll after poll
> >has shown that a majority of exiles want normalized relations with
> >Cuba, and an end to the embargo.
>
> Hi, Jack. I didn't realize you lived in or near Miami. Are you now
> going to reveal that you're actually Carl Hiaisen (or however his name
> is spelled -- American names are so difficult).
>
> I didn't mean to diss the entire Miami-Cuban community by my comments.
> It's just that from up here (state of Washington) it sometimes looks
> as if the Cuban-American community is united; I'm glad to hear there's
> some diversity of opinion. _I_ certainly believe it's long past time
> the punishing embargo and sanctions against Cuba were lifted, and I hope
> in another four to eight years to have a president honest and brave
> enough to champion that. (How's that for expressing an opinion through
> indirection :-))
>
> >
> >There is a political spectrum down here that has been changing for
> >many years, with most exiles now favoring dialog with Castro. There
> >are still fanatics however. There are still paramilitary organizations
> >that spend their weekends in the everglades, "practicing" for the day
> >when they will militarily re-take Cuba. There are still a vocal group
> >that insist that all evil flows from Castro and his regime. They see
> >conspiracies everywhere and rhetoric is the tool of choice for
> >creating fear and loathing. They will often tell you how brainwashed
> >the Cuban people are under Castro's communist control. But these
> >people are now only a small part of the exile community and not
> >representative at all.
>
> I'm glad to hear it. On the other hand, it seems as if there are a
> sufficient number of non-Cuban Americans who are more than willing to
> take up the challenge and make up for the defections of the non-fanatics
> in Miami :-)
>
> I'd be a lot more inclined to give this viewpoint some credence if the
> proponents were able to offer anything other than heated rhetoric and
> vague accusations of "brain-washing" if and when someone actually
> (*gasp*!> chooses to return to Cuba rather than remain in the U.S.
>
> I'm sure Cuba is no paradise. But then, neither is the U.S.
As evidenced by the millions of people leaving the US for better
lives elsewhere.
Cap.
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--
Operation: Nerdwatch - http://www.nerdwatch.com
Captain Nerd can be reached at: cpt...@nerdwatch.com
"By the taping of my glasses, something geeky this way passes."
frank howell
right Cap?
Captain Nerd <cpt...@nerdwatch.com> wrote in message
news:cptnerd-66EA12.15020228042000@news...
Captain Nerd
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In article <HjlO4.470$M5....@typhoon.elp.rr.com>, "frank howell"
<fhow...@elp.rr.com> wrote:
> See those people floating over to the Communist paradise of China now...
> right Cap?
That's right, I forgot about all the US citizens paying smugglers
to take them to China for better working conditions and a chance
at freedom and prosperity.
Cap.
> Captain Nerd <cpt...@nerdwatch.com> wrote in message
> news:cptnerd-66EA12.15020228042000@news...
> >
> > In article <8eck2h$ivc$1...@nntp1.u.washington.edu>, ce...@u.washington.edu
> > (Ceon Ramon) wrote:
> > > I'd be a lot more inclined to give this viewpoint some credence if the
> > > proponents were able to offer anything other than heated rhetoric and
> > > vague accusations of "brain-washing" if and when someone actually
> > > (*gasp*!> chooses to return to Cuba rather than remain in the U.S.
> > >
> > > I'm sure Cuba is no paradise. But then, neither is the U.S.
> >
> > As evidenced by the millions of people leaving the US for better
> > lives elsewhere.
> >
> > Cap.
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frank howell
Communists tell us what Job we'll have. What we'll read, and of course
who'll we'll vote for... right Babu?news:cptnerd-D82861.15142728042000@news...