Heber Jentzsch Legal Efforts
Rod Keller
The following diplomatic cables were received in anonymous e-mail. To me
they indicate that Scientology has been negotiating with the U.S.
Government to not fulfil our obligations under the treaty we have with
Spain. The cables are not classified. The amazing part is how they
evaluate the motives and strength of the Spanish case without any regard
for the right of a nation to try its own cases. Selected press have
received the cables, and I plan to send them to my congressmen, senators,
and the Spanish Embassy.
UNCLASSIFIED
UNCLAS SECTION 01 OF 02 MADRID 003029
2ND C O R R E C T E D C O P Y //CLASSIFICATION ADDED TO PARAS//
STATE FOR CA/OCS/EUR AND L/LEI - KEN PROPP
DRL FOR HAROLD KOH AND ROBERT SIEPEL JUSTICE FOR OIA MARGARET COTTER
SENSITIVE BUT UNCLASSIFIED
E.O. 12958: N/A
TAGS: CJAN,PHUM,CASC,PREL,SP
SUBJECT: MEETING WITH SCIENTOLOGY LAWYERS: USG SHOULD COMPLY WITH MLAT,
BUT FIRST TRY TO AVOID TRIAL
REFS: A) 99 MADRID 4748; (B) 99 MADRID 5061
1. (SBU) SUMMARY: IN A JULY 18 MEETING WITH CG, POLCOUNS AND FSN LEGAL
ADVISOR, US LAWYERS DEFENDING THE CHURCH OF SCTENTOLOGY AGAINST SPANISH
PROSECUTION AGAIN ASKED THE EMBASSY TO RECOMMEND DENYING SPAIN'S REQUEST
TO SERVE SUMMONS TO AMCIT HEBER JENTZSCH UNDER THE MUTUAL LEGAL ASSISTANCE
TREATY. THIS BEING OUR THIRD MEETING, WE AGAIN REITERATED OUR VIEW THAT
SERVICE OF SUMMONS AGAINST MR. JENTZSCH WOULD NOT PREJUDICE "THE SECURITY
OR SIMILAR ESSENTIAL INTERESTS" OF THE US, THE STANDARD REQUIRED TO DENY
AN MLAT REQUEST (ARTICLE 3). ON THE CONTRARY, DENYING THE REQUEST WOULD
JEOPARDIZE ESSENTIAL US LAW ENFORCEMENT INTERESTS. WE BELIEVE THE SPANISH
CASE IS EXTREMELY WEAK AND FRAUGHT WITH ANOMALIES, BUT THESE ARE
ESSENTIALLY LEGAL, NOT RELIGIOUS, IN NATURE. WE ARE ALSO CONVINCED IT IS
EXTREMELY UNLIKELY THE CASE WILL GO TO TRIAL, EVEN LESS LIKELY JENTZSCH
WOULD BE CONVICTED IF IT DID, AND BEYOND CONCEPTION THAT HE WOULD SERVE
ANY TIME IF CONVICTED. HOWEVER, WE RECOMMEND DOJ DELAY SERVING SUMMONS TO
PROVIDE MORE TIME FOR A SETTLEMENT, WHILE WE FOLLOW UP ON WHAT TO DO IN
SPAIN TO AVOID A TRIAL. END SUMMARY.
2. (SBU) ON JULY 18 SCIENTOLOGY COUNSELS BILL WALSH AND MONIQUE YINGLING
PRESENTED EMBASSY REPS WITH THE SPANISH PROSECUTION'S PROPOSED SETTLEMENT,
IN THE FORM OF A REVISED PROSECUTION WRIT, DROPPING ALL CHARGES AGAINST
SCIENTOLOGY PRESIDENT HEBER JENTZSCH. THE SPANISH PROSECUTION WITHDREW THE
OFFER FOLLOWING A LAST MINUTE RENEGING BY ONE OF THE DEFENDANTS. THE COURT
SET A NEW TRIAL DATE, SEPTEMBER 25, TRIGGERING ANOTHER SPANISH REQUEST TO
THE USG TO SUMMON JENTZSCH.
3. (SBU) THE PROSECUTION'S REVISED WRIT CITES OTHER EUROPEAN GOVERNMENTS'S
RECOGNITION OF SCIENTOLOGY'S RELIGIOUS NATURE AS THE MOTIVE FOR DROPPING
ALL CHARGES AGAINST JENTZSCH. THIS, CONTEND WALSH AND YINGLING, PROVES
THAT JENTZSCH IS BEING PROSECUTED FOR HIS RELIGIOUS BELIEFS. THE LAWYERS
ALSO CITED THE PROSECUTION'S REQUEST JENTZSCH WAIVE ANY CLAIMS AGAINST THE
SPANISH GOVERNMENT AS FURTHER EVIDENCE IT KNOWS IT'S IN THE WRONG.
4. (SBU) WE REPLIED THAT WE AGREE THE CASE AGAINST JENTZSCH IS EXTREMELY
WEAK (GRANTED, WE HAVEN'T SEEN THE EVIDENCE, BUT FROM OUR PERSPECTIVE, IT
APPEARS TO BORDER ON THE ABSURD), AND THAT SOME SPANISH AUTHORITIES DURING
THE PAST TWELVE YEARS HAVE IN ONE WAY OR ANOTHER MADE CLEAR THEIR PERSONAL
PREJUDICE AGAINST THE CHURCH. BUT, WE STRESSED, THE PARTICULAR CASE
AGAINST HEBER JENTZSCH IS UNTENABLE ON LEGAL GROUNDS, PRIMARILY THE
PROSECUTION'S FAILURE TO LINK HIM TO THE ALLEGED CRIMES. WE SEE NO
EVIDENCE THAT THE SPANISH GOVERNMENT IS PROSECUTING JENTZSCH FOR HIS
BELIEF IN SCIENTOLOGY, OR THAT IT SEEKS TO DENY THE RIGHTS OF SPANISH
SCIENTOLOGISTS. AS DOCUMENTED IN THE LAST TWO REPORTS ON RELIGIOUS FREEDOM
IN SPAIN, AND IN REFTELS, THE CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY CONTINUES TO OPERATE
FREELY ALL OVER SPAIN. WHILE IT IS NOT RECOGNIZED AS A RELIGION, IT IS
REGISTERED AS A CULTURAL ASSOCIATION WITH SPAIN'S INTERIOR MINISTRY. IN
ADDITION, SPANISH COURTS HAVE RULED IN FAVOR OF THE CHURCH IN THREE
SEPARATE CASES SINCE 1987.
5. (SBU) AFTER WE AGREED TO DISAGREE, WE FOCUSED ON THE MORE IMMEDIATE
ISSUE, AVOIDING TRIAL. THE DEFENSE LAWYERS AGREE THAT THE SPANISH
PROSECUTION IS ALSO ANXIOUS TO AVOID TRIAL, AND THAT THE DECISION BY ONE
OF THE DEFENDANTS TO RENEGE ON THE SETTLEMENT AT THE ELEVENTH HOUR ANGERED
THE PROSECUTOR, WHO RESPONDED BY WITHDRAWING THE ENTIRE SETTLEMENT AND
CALLING FOR A TRIAL DATE. WALSH AND YINGLING STILL EXPECT A SETTLEMENT, A
FEELING SHARED BY ONE OF SCIENTOLOGY'S SPANISH LAWYERS, WITH WHOM WE MET
LAST WEEK. THE SPANISH DEFENSE LAWYER TOLD CG AND FSN LEGAL ADVISOR HE
WOULD LOVE TO GO TO TRIAL, BECAUSE THE CHARGE AGAINST JENTZSCH IS SO
PREPOSTEROUS HE IS CONSIDERING BRINGING THE PROSECUTION UP ON JUDICIAL
MISCONDUCT CHARGES.
6. (SBU) WE ALL AGREED THE BEST COURSE OF ACTION IS TO DELAY THE SERVING
OF SUMMONS TO JENTZSCH LONG ENOUGH TO GIVE THE DEFENSE AND THE PROSECUTION
TIME TO REACH A SETTLEMENT. WHILE WALSH AND YINGLING DEMURRED, WE FIND IT
HARD TO BELIEVE THE SEPTEMBER 25 TRIAL DATE, COMING A MERE THREE WEEKS
AFTER THE AUGUST VACATIONS, WILL BE MET. YINGLING LET IT SLIP THAT THE
LEAD DEFENSE LAWYER, ONE OF MADRID'S HIGH POWERED LITIGATORS, RECENTLY
SUFFERED A STROKE, WHICH ALONE COULD PROVIDE A BASIS FOR A DELAY IN THE
TRIAL. THERE ARE NUMEROUS OTHER TACTICS THE DEFENSE CAN USE TO DELAY THE
TRIAL. BT
UNCLAS SECTION 02 OF 02 MADRID 003029
C 0 R R E C T E D C 0 P Y//CALSSIFICATION ADDED TO PARAS//
STATE FOR CA/OCS/EUR AND L/LEI - KEN PROPP
DRL FOR HAROLD KOH AND ROBERT SIEPEL JUSTICE FOR OIA MARGARET COTTER
SENSITIVE BUT UNCLASSIFIED
E.O. 12958: N/A
TAGS: CJAN,PHUM,CASC,PREL,SP
SUBJECT: MEETING WITH SCIENTOLOGY LAWYERS: USG SHOULD COMPLY WITH MLAT,
BUT FIRST TRY TO AVOID TRIAL
7. (SBU) THE OBVIOUS SOLUTION FROM OUR PERSPECTIVE, AS WE DISCUSSED WITH
WALSH AND YINGLING, IS TO CONVINCE THE PROSECUTION TO BREAK OFF THE ONE
RECALCITRANT DEFENDANT AND TRY HIM SEPARATELY. APPARENTLY THE PROSECUTOR
WANTS THIS CASE SETTLED WHOLE, AND IS UNWILLING TO REACH SEPARATE
AGREEMENTS. NEVERTHELESS, THIS REMAINS A POSSIBILITY. IN THE MEANTIME, WE
OFFERED TO USE OUR CONTACTS WITHIN THE SPANISH JUDICIARY TO DISCRETELY
SEEK WAYS TO DELAY THE TRIAL DATE. BUT WE ALSO WARNED THEM AN AGGRESSIVE
APPROACH ON OUR PART COULD CREATE A NEGATIVE BACKLASH, WHICH THEY
UNDERSTOOD MUST BE AVOIDED.
8. (SBU) EMBASSY WOULD LIKE TO OFFER THE FOLLOWING POINTS TO PROVIDE
ADDITIONAL BACKGROUND AND CONTEXT FOR WASHINGTON READERS: A)THE
INVESTIGATION OF THE CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY IN SPAIN BEGAN IN 1984, WHEN AN
OFF-DUTY SPANISH POLICEMAN ALLEGEDLY HIRED BY THE CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY IN
SPAIN WAS CHARGED WITH ILLEGAL DETENTION. OTHER ACCUSATIONS FOLLOWED FROM
INDIVIDUAL SPANIARDS WHO FELT THEY HAD BEEN MISTREATED OR CHEATED BY
NARCONON AND DIANETICA, SCIENTOLOGY-AFFILIATED ORGANIZATIONS IN SPAIN. ALL
OF THIS CULMINATED IN THE ARREST OF JENTZSCH AND OTHERS IN 1988. IT WAS
INDIVIDUALS WHO FELT VICTIMIZED, NOT THE SPANISH STATE, WHO INITIATED THE
CASE AGAINST THE CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY.
B) THE FACT THAT OTHERS CHARGED IN THE CASE APPARENTLY CONFESSED TO THEIR
CRIMES IN THE LATEST DRAFT PROSECUTION WRIT (NOW WITHDRAWN) IS EVIDENCE
SPANISH AUTHORITIES HAD LEGITMATE LAW ENFORCEMENT MOTIVATION BEHIND THE
DECISION TO BRING THE CASE TO COURT.
C) THE SPANISH GOVERNMENT NEVER CLOSED THE CHURCH IN SPAIN, EVEN FOLLOWING
THE 1988 ARRESTS, ALTHOUGH FOLLOWING THE ARRESTS THE EXAMINING JUDGE
ORDERED THE CONFISCATION OF DOCUMENTS AND OTHER ARTICLES FROM SOME
SCIENTOLOGY OFFICES, AND SOME BANK ACCOUNTS IMPOUNDED, TO BE USED AS
EVIDENCE IN THE CASE.
D) A SCIENTOLOGY PUBLICATION LISTS EIGHT SCIENTOLOGY CENTERS CURRENTLY
OPERATING IN SPAIN. THIS EMBASSY HAS IN THE RECENT PAST ISSUED RELIGIOUS
(R) VISAS TO LOCAL CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY MEMBERS TRAVELING ON CHURCH
BUSINESS TO THE US.
9. (SBU) COMMENT: AT THIS POINT WE CAN BEST SERVE US INTERESTS BY DOING
WHAT WE CAN TO HELP THE PARTIES REACH A SETTLEMENT. WHILE WE DISAGREE WITH
SCIENTOLOGY'S LAWYERS THAT THIS IS A CASE OF RELIGIOUS PERSECUTION, WE
CERTAINLY AGREE THAT THE CHARGES AGAINST JENTZSCH ARE SUPERFICIAL, TO SAY
THE LEAST. THE PROSECUTION OF THE CASE CONTINUES, IN OUR JUDGEMENT,
BECAUSE THEY CAN'T SIMPLY DROP ALL CHARGES AND HAVE NOTHING TO SHOW FOR
TWELVE YEARS OF FINANCIAL EXPENDITURE AND JUDICIAL EFFORT. BUT INVOKING
ARTICLE 3 OF THE MLAT AND CITING RELIGIOUS PERSECUTION AS THE EXPLANATION
(THE TREATY REQUIRES AN EXPLANATION), WOULD BLATANTLY CONTRADICT YEARS OF
USG ASSERTIONS THAT SPAIN IS A DEMOCRACY THAT RESPECTS FUNDAMENTAL
FREEDOMS. A USG WILLINGNESS TO INVOKE THE ESSENTIAL INTERESTS CLAUSE
MERELY TO AVOID SERVING A SUMMONS WOULD ALSO CALL INTO QUESTION OUR
COMMITMENT TO LAW ENFORCEMENT COOPERATION IN SPAIN AND OTHER COUNTRIES. WE
RECOMMEND A DELAY IN SERVICE TO ALLOW THE PARTIES TO REACH AGREEMENT. BUT
IF THIS TACTIC FAILS, WE RECOMMEND THAT THE SUMMONS BE SERVED.
ROMERO
BT
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Text available at http://parishioner.org/spain.html with some
additional hyperlinks.
Key to Abbreviations
AMCIT - American Citizen
CA - Office of the Assistant Secretary for Consular Affairs, Mary A. Ryan
CG - Consul General Douglas R. Smith
DOJ - Department of Justice
DRL - Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights and Labor Affairs, Department of
State
HAROLD KOH - Harold Hongju Koh, Assistant Secretary of State
EUR - European Affairs, Acting Assistant Secretary of State James F.
Dobbins
FSN - Foreign Service National
L/LEI - Legal Advisor / Law Enforcement and Intelligence, Department of
State, Ken Propp
MADRID - U.S. Embassy to Spain, Serrano 75, 28006 Madrid, Spain
OIA - Office of International Affairs, Department of Justice
MARGARET COTTER - Office of International Affairs, Department of Justice
MLAT - Mutual Legal Assistance Treaty (see below)
POLCOUNS - Political Counselor Michael Butler, Department of State
REFS - References to previous cables
REFTEL - Referenced Telephone Call
ROBERT SIEPLE - Ambassador at Large for International Religious Freedom
ROMERO - Edward L. Romero, Ambassador to Spain
SBU - Sensitive But Unclassified
USG - United States Government
The treaty mentioned is the U.S. - Spain Treaty on mutual Legal Assistance
in Criminal Matters, entered into force June 23, 1993. Sentate Treaty Doc.
102-21, 102nd Cong. 2d. Ratified October 9, 1992.
JimDBB
>From: rke...@netaxs.com (Rod Keller)
>Date: 8/8/00 11:20 AM Central
Tilman Hausherr
<8mpc17$i...@netaxs.com>:
>DRL FOR HAROLD KOH AND ROBERT SIEPEL JUSTICE FOR OIA MARGARET COTTER
"Robert Seiple", a loon who travels around the world at US taxpayers
expense to lobby for american cults.
>2. (SBU) ON JULY 18 SCIENTOLOGY COUNSELS BILL WALSH AND MONIQUE YINGLING
>PRESENTED EMBASSY REPS WITH THE SPANISH PROSECUTION'S PROPOSED SETTLEMENT,
>IN THE FORM OF A REVISED PROSECUTION WRIT, DROPPING ALL CHARGES AGAINST
>SCIENTOLOGY PRESIDENT HEBER JENTZSCH. THE SPANISH PROSECUTION WITHDREW THE
>OFFER FOLLOWING A LAST MINUTE RENEGING BY ONE OF THE DEFENDANTS. THE COURT
>SET A NEW TRIAL DATE, SEPTEMBER 25, TRIGGERING ANOTHER SPANISH REQUEST TO
>THE USG TO SUMMON JENTZSCH.
Amazing. Both are *tax* attorneys.
Tommy
>
>
> The following diplomatic cables were received in anonymous e-mail. To me
> they indicate that Scientology has been negotiating with the U.S.
> Government to not fulfil our obligations under the treaty we have with
> Spain. The cables are not classified. The amazing part is how they
> evaluate the motives and strength of the Spanish case without any regard
> for the right of a nation to try its own cases. Selected press have
> received the cables, and I plan to send them to my congressmen, senators,
> and the Spanish Embassy.
>
> UNCLASSIFIED
> 9. (SBU) COMMENT: AT THIS POINT WE CAN BEST SERVE US INTERESTS BY DOING
> WHAT WE CAN TO HELP THE PARTIES REACH A SETTLEMENT. WHILE WE DISAGREE WITH
> SCIENTOLOGY'S LAWYERS THAT THIS IS A CASE OF RELIGIOUS PERSECUTION, WE
> CERTAINLY AGREE THAT THE CHARGES AGAINST JENTZSCH ARE SUPERFICIAL, TO SAY
> THE LEAST. THE PROSECUTION OF THE CASE CONTINUES, IN OUR JUDGEMENT,
> BECAUSE THEY CAN'T SIMPLY DROP ALL CHARGES AND HAVE NOTHING TO SHOW FOR
> TWELVE YEARS OF FINANCIAL EXPENDITURE AND JUDICIAL EFFORT. BUT INVOKING
> ARTICLE 3 OF THE MLAT AND CITING RELIGIOUS PERSECUTION AS THE EXPLANATION
> (THE TREATY REQUIRES AN EXPLANATION), WOULD BLATANTLY CONTRADICT YEARS OF
> USG ASSERTIONS THAT SPAIN IS A DEMOCRACY THAT RESPECTS FUNDAMENTAL
> FREEDOMS. A USG WILLINGNESS TO INVOKE THE ESSENTIAL INTERESTS CLAUSE
> MERELY TO AVOID SERVING A SUMMONS WOULD ALSO CALL INTO QUESTION OUR
> COMMITMENT TO LAW ENFORCEMENT COOPERATION IN SPAIN AND OTHER COUNTRIES. WE
> RECOMMEND A DELAY IN SERVICE TO ALLOW THE PARTIES TO REACH AGREEMENT. BUT
> IF THIS TACTIC FAILS, WE RECOMMEND THAT THE SUMMONS BE SERVED.
> ROMERO
> BT
>
In other words, they realize that crimes were committed, they don't buy
for an instant that this is any kind of religous persecution, and if
Spanish LE and the happy fun cult don't come to an agreement (not bloody
likely), then Heber gets served and has to go to trial.
Sweeeet. I'm reminded of the preacher in Blazing Saddles right after a
townie responds to his hearfelt plea for mercy by putting a bullet
through his book:
"You're on your own, son."
Do Spanish prisons let you receive TELEX communications?
Tommy
--
From "All about Radiation", by a 'nuclear physicist'....
"One might well ask what I know about this subject. I was a member of
the first class in nuclear physics - we called it Atomic and Molecular
Phenomena, of which nuclear physics is just a small part - which was
taught at the George Washington University."
L. Ron Hubbard
He got an "F".
Nomen Nescio
>>DRL FOR HAROLD KOH AND ROBERT SIEPEL JUSTICE FOR OIA MARGARET
>>COTTER
>
>"Robert Seiple", a loon who travels around the world at US taxpayers
>expense to lobby for american cults.
>
>>2. (SBU) ON JULY 18 SCIENTOLOGY COUNSELS BILL WALSH AND MONIQUE
>>YINGLING PRESENTED EMBASSY REPS WITH THE SPANISH PROSECUTION'S
>>PROPOSED SETTLEMENT, IN THE FORM OF A REVISED PROSECUTION WRIT,
>>DROPPING ALL CHARGES AGAINST SCIENTOLOGY PRESIDENT HEBER
>>JENTZSCH. THE SPANISH PROSECUTION WITHDREW THE OFFER FOLLOWING
>>A LAST MINUTE RENEGING BY ONE OF THE DEFENDANTS. THE COURT SET A
>>NEW TRIAL DATE, SEPTEMBER 25, TRIGGERING ANOTHER SPANISH REQUEST
>>TO THE USG TO SUMMON JENTZSCH.
>
>Amazing. Both are *tax* attorneys.
Very amazing indeed. How the hell is the cult of Scientology making the
U.S. government to go around lobbying on its behalf? Not too long ago
the U.S. gov't was RAIDING Scientology and trying to close it down.
The answer I think, is that Scientology has been infiltrated and is now
controlled by the gov't. That seems to be the best explanation.
The highest entity in Scientology is CST, which controls RTC, Flag, and
everything else through copyright ownership. Now who is in charge of CST
(and thus all of Scientology)? A bunch of GOVERNMENT TAX ATTORNEYS
who are not even Scientologists!!
Consider the hundreds of millions of dollars that $cientology rakes in
every year. (okay it might only be tens of millions now due to crashing
stats) Where does it all go? A lot of it goes into funding lawsuits, but
it can't account for all of it. Miscavige might have stashed some money
on the side but indications are that he doesn't spend extravagantly.
And almost none of it goes to Scientology staff who live on rice and
beans and make below minimum wage.
In other words, a perfect setup for government's future secret ops
(think Iran-Contra). Over a billion dollars of $cientology money which
they can spend in total secrecy with NO accountability to the Congress,
President or anyone else.
Turnabout is fair play, Scientology tried to infiltrate the government
in Snow White and now the Gov't has infiltrated and controls Scientology.
Almost makes you laugh, to think that Scientologists like Claire Swazey
and TravisSargent laboring out here handling ARS for the greatest good
for greatest number of dynamics, helping to clear the planet, etc., when
they're really just pawns in a Gov't black ops program. All their hard
work
might ultimately be propping up a dictator in South America somewhere!
Chris Leithiser
>
> Rod Keller wrote:
> >
> >
> > The following diplomatic cables were received in anonymous e-mail. To me
> > they indicate that Scientology has been negotiating with the U.S.
> > Government to not fulfil our obligations under the treaty we have with
> > Spain. The cables are not classified. The amazing part is how they
> > evaluate the motives and strength of the Spanish case without any regard
> > for the right of a nation to try its own cases. Selected press have
> > received the cables, and I plan to send them to my congressmen, senators,
> > and the Spanish Embassy.
> >
> > UNCLASSIFIED
> > WHAT WE CAN TO HELP THE PARTIES REACH A SETTLEMENT. WHILE WE DISAGREE WITH
> > SCIENTOLOGY'S LAWYERS THAT THIS IS A CASE OF RELIGIOUS PERSECUTION, WE
> > CERTAINLY AGREE THAT THE CHARGES AGAINST JENTZSCH ARE SUPERFICIAL, TO SAY
> > THE LEAST. THE PROSECUTION OF THE CASE CONTINUES, IN OUR JUDGEMENT,
> > BECAUSE THEY CAN'T SIMPLY DROP ALL CHARGES AND HAVE NOTHING TO SHOW FOR
> > TWELVE YEARS OF FINANCIAL EXPENDITURE AND JUDICIAL EFFORT. BUT INVOKING
> > ARTICLE 3 OF THE MLAT AND CITING RELIGIOUS PERSECUTION AS THE EXPLANATION
> > (THE TREATY REQUIRES AN EXPLANATION), WOULD BLATANTLY CONTRADICT YEARS OF
> > USG ASSERTIONS THAT SPAIN IS A DEMOCRACY THAT RESPECTS FUNDAMENTAL
> > FREEDOMS. A USG WILLINGNESS TO INVOKE THE ESSENTIAL INTERESTS CLAUSE
> > MERELY TO AVOID SERVING A SUMMONS WOULD ALSO CALL INTO QUESTION OUR
> > COMMITMENT TO LAW ENFORCEMENT COOPERATION IN SPAIN AND OTHER COUNTRIES. WE
> > RECOMMEND A DELAY IN SERVICE TO ALLOW THE PARTIES TO REACH AGREEMENT. BUT
> > IF THIS TACTIC FAILS, WE RECOMMEND THAT THE SUMMONS BE SERVED.
> > ROMERO
> > BT
> >
>
> for an instant that this is any kind of religous persecution, and if
> Spanish LE and the happy fun cult don't come to an agreement (not bloody
> likely), then Heber gets served and has to go to trial.
Do you suppose that a certain cultist expected Heber would've been cut
free by July 27? What happened--didn't the bribe check clear?
Lronscam
<5c75cf61a7342efd...@dizum.com>, On or about Tue, 8 Aug 2000
23:40:02 +0200 (CEST),
Nomen Nescio says...
>The highest entity in Scientology is CST, which controls RTC, Flag, and
>everything else through copyright ownership. Now who is in charge of CST
>(and thus all of Scientology)? A bunch of GOVERNMENT TAX ATTORNEYS
>who are not even Scientologists!!
>
>Consider the hundreds of millions of dollars that $cientology rakes in
>every year. (okay it might only be tens of millions now due to crashing
>stats) Where does it all go? A lot of it goes into funding lawsuits, but
>it can't account for all of it. Miscavige might have stashed some money
>on the side but indications are that he doesn't spend extravagantly.
>And almost none of it goes to Scientology staff who live on rice and
>beans and make below minimum wage.
>
>In other words, a perfect setup for government's future secret ops
>(think Iran-Contra). Over a billion dollars of $cientology money which
>they can spend in total secrecy with NO accountability to the Congress,
>President or anyone else.
Norman, you said this before and this argument was easily invalidated.
Do you plan on mentioning this nonsense repeatedly?
ptsc
>4. (SBU) WE REPLIED THAT WE AGREE THE CASE AGAINST JENTZSCH IS EXTREMELY
>WEAK (GRANTED, WE HAVEN'T SEEN THE EVIDENCE, BUT FROM OUR PERSPECTIVE, IT
>APPEARS TO BORDER ON THE ABSURD)
They haven't seen (ie aren't interested in seeing) the evidence but
they have the fucking gall to comment on the case anyway?
ptsc
Tilman Hausherr
<nob...@dizum.com> wrote in
<5c75cf61a7342efd...@dizum.com>:
>Very amazing indeed. How the hell is the cult of Scientology making the
>U.S. government to go around lobbying on its behalf? Not too long ago
>the U.S. gov't was RAIDING Scientology and trying to close it down.
The german government has alleged for years that scientology is a
political organization. This diplomatic cable shows this again.
roger gonnet
Rod Keller <rke...@netaxs.com> a écrit dans le message :
8mpc17$i...@netaxs.com...
>
> The following diplomatic cables were received in anonymous e-mail. To me
> they indicate that Scientology has been negotiating with the U.S.
> Government to not fulfil our obligations under the treaty we have with
> Spain. The cables are not classified. The amazing part is how they
> evaluate the motives and strength of the Spanish case without any regard
> for the right of a nation to try its own cases. Selected press have
> received the cables, and I plan to send them to my congressmen, senators,
> and the Spanish Embassy.
>
>
> WEAK (GRANTED, WE HAVEN'T SEEN THE EVIDENCE, BUT FROM OUR PERSPECTIVE, IT
> APPEARS TO BORDER ON THE ABSURD), AND THAT SOME SPANISH AUTHORITIES DURING
> THE PAST TWELVE YEARS HAVE IN ONE WAY OR ANOTHER MADE CLEAR THEIR PERSONAL
> PREJUDICE AGAINST THE CHURCH.
Strange new manner to present an assertion... once this is compared to what
happened under Hubbard, when Hubbard himself was named as the main leader of
scientology fraud in France suit, Paris 1978.
Then, all the 3 presidents, plus Hubbard had been convicted since the
complaint for fraud against the scam church had been deposed.
And no protest of any religious sort was being done at that time that Hubbie
himself could'nt be named as a convict; no so-called "prejudice againts
religion" was made before the suit, despite they tried to defend on these
grounds later.
Now that a similar case for fraud and many other scam-tchurdch crimes has
been launched in spain, they are accusing the spain govt of prejudice
against religion... what a stinking argument, while all the facts are well
documented.
Clams learned from their few successes that it could be used now, but they
can't understand that the rare religious fronts presented are never the
bases of any suit against them.
roger
roger gonnet
Nomen Nescio <nob...@dizum.com> a écrit dans le message :
5c75cf61a7342efd...@dizum.com...
> Tilman Hausherr <til...@berlin.snafu.de> wrote:
>
> >>DRL FOR HAROLD KOH AND ROBERT SIEPEL JUSTICE FOR OIA MARGARET
> >>COTTER
> >
> >"Robert Seiple", a loon who travels around the world at US taxpayers
> >expense to lobby for american cults.
> >
> >>2. (SBU) ON JULY 18 SCIENTOLOGY COUNSELS BILL WALSH AND MONIQUE
> >>YINGLING PRESENTED EMBASSY REPS WITH THE SPANISH PROSECUTION'S
> >>PROPOSED SETTLEMENT, IN THE FORM OF A REVISED PROSECUTION WRIT,
> >>DROPPING ALL CHARGES AGAINST SCIENTOLOGY PRESIDENT HEBER
> >>JENTZSCH. THE SPANISH PROSECUTION WITHDREW THE OFFER FOLLOWING
> >>A LAST MINUTE RENEGING BY ONE OF THE DEFENDANTS. THE COURT SET A
> >>NEW TRIAL DATE, SEPTEMBER 25, TRIGGERING ANOTHER SPANISH REQUEST
> >>TO THE USG TO SUMMON JENTZSCH.
> >
> >Amazing. Both are *tax* attorneys.
>
> U.S. government to go around lobbying on its behalf? Not too long ago
> the U.S. gov't was RAIDING Scientology and trying to close it down.
>
> controlled by the gov't. That seems to be the best explanation.
The best explanation is that scientology has accumulated lots of small or
not so small blackmail against high authorities and officials including
Clinton; the second linked to the first is that it is used by US politicians
as a method to get informations (secrets, classified etc) from foreign
countries and companies, and the third is economical: scientology is a
greedy org, like US politics.
roger
roger gonnet
Rod Keller <rke...@netaxs.com> a écrit dans le message :
8mpc17$i...@netaxs.com...
>
> The following diplomatic cables were received in anonymous e-mail. To me
> they indicate that Scientology has been negotiating with the U.S.
> Government to not fulfil our obligations under the treaty we have with
> Spain. The cables are not classified. The amazing part is how they
> evaluate the motives and strength of the Spanish case without any regard
> for the right of a nation to try its own cases. Selected press have
> received the cables, and I plan to send them to my congressmen, senators,
> and the Spanish Embassy.
>
> UNCLASSIFIED
> UNCLAS SECTION 01 OF 02 MADRID 003029
Which ones?
>
> 5. (SBU) AFTER WE AGREED TO DISAGREE, WE FOCUSED ON THE MORE IMMEDIATE
> ISSUE, AVOIDING TRIAL. THE DEFENSE LAWYERS AGREE THAT THE SPANISH
> PROSECUTION IS ALSO ANXIOUS TO AVOID TRIAL, AND THAT THE DECISION BY ONE
> OF THE DEFENDANTS TO RENEGE ON THE SETTLEMENT AT THE ELEVENTH HOUR ANGERED
> THE PROSECUTOR, WHO RESPONDED BY WITHDRAWING THE ENTIRE SETTLEMENT AND
> CALLING FOR A TRIAL DATE. WALSH AND YINGLING STILL EXPECT A SETTLEMENT, A
> FEELING SHARED BY ONE OF SCIENTOLOGY'S SPANISH LAWYERS, WITH WHOM WE MET
> LAST WEEK. THE SPANISH DEFENSE LAWYER TOLD CG AND FSN LEGAL ADVISOR HE
> WOULD LOVE TO GO TO TRIAL, BECAUSE THE CHARGE AGAINST JENTZSCH IS SO
> PREPOSTEROUS HE IS CONSIDERING BRINGING THE PROSECUTION UP ON JUDICIAL
> MISCONDUCT CHARGES.
Once again avoiding the truth of the matter. Only defending on FORM rather
than on merits. Their way...
>
> 6. (SBU) WE ALL AGREED THE BEST COURSE OF ACTION IS TO DELAY THE SERVING
> OF SUMMONS TO JENTZSCH LONG ENOUGH TO GIVE THE DEFENSE AND THE PROSECUTION
> TIME TO REACH A SETTLEMENT.
Form and abuse of justice.
WHILE WALSH AND YINGLING DEMURRED, WE FIND IT
> HARD TO BELIEVE THE SEPTEMBER 25 TRIAL DATE, COMING A MERE THREE WEEKS
> AFTER THE AUGUST VACATIONS, WILL BE MET. YINGLING LET IT SLIP THAT THE
> LEAD DEFENSE LAWYER, ONE OF MADRID'S HIGH POWERED LITIGATORS, RECENTLY
> SUFFERED A STROKE, WHICH ALONE COULD PROVIDE A BASIS FOR A DELAY IN THE
> TRIAL. THERE ARE NUMEROUS OTHER TACTICS THE DEFENSE CAN USE TO DELAY THE
> TRIAL. BT
Form again. Perhaps a lie behind.
>
> UNCLAS SECTION 02 OF 02 MADRID 003029
> C 0 R R E C T E D C 0 P Y//CALSSIFICATION ADDED TO PARAS//
> STATE FOR CA/OCS/EUR AND L/LEI - KEN PROPP
> DRL FOR HAROLD KOH AND ROBERT SIEPEL JUSTICE FOR OIA MARGARET COTTER
> SENSITIVE BUT UNCLASSIFIED
> E.O. 12958: N/A
> TAGS: CJAN,PHUM,CASC,PREL,SP
> SUBJECT: MEETING WITH SCIENTOLOGY LAWYERS: USG SHOULD COMPLY WITH MLAT,
> BUT FIRST TRY TO AVOID TRIAL
>
> 7. (SBU) THE OBVIOUS SOLUTION FROM OUR PERSPECTIVE, AS WE DISCUSSED WITH
> WALSH AND YINGLING, IS TO CONVINCE THE PROSECUTION TO BREAK OFF THE ONE
> RECALCITRANT DEFENDANT AND TRY HIM SEPARATELY. APPARENTLY THE PROSECUTOR
> WANTS THIS CASE SETTLED WHOLE, AND IS UNWILLING TO REACH SEPARATE
> AGREEMENTS. NEVERTHELESS, THIS REMAINS A POSSIBILITY. IN THE MEANTIME, WE
> OFFERED TO USE OUR CONTACTS WITHIN THE SPANISH JUDICIARY TO DISCRETELY
> SEEK WAYS TO DELAY THE TRIAL DATE. BUT WE ALSO WARNED THEM AN AGGRESSIVE
> APPROACH ON OUR PART COULD CREATE A NEGATIVE BACKLASH, WHICH THEY
> UNDERSTOOD MUST BE AVOIDED.
Trying to settle: another possibility to get "victories" - Pyrrhus ones.
This is a stupid argument: perhaps in US the president of a company has no
responsability for his company's illegal activities? In many latin
countries, at least, the president bears a large responsability for what
happens inside his organizations.
.
Nomen Nescio
>Norman, you said this before and this argument was easily invalidated.
I posted it a few weeks ago. I checked the NG next day, didn't
see anyone responding to it so I figured nobody read it, and
didn't keep track.
Point out to me the post that "easily invalidated" this argument
so I can read up on it. Date, subject and author headers please.
>Do you plan on mentioning this nonsense repeatedly?
I don't think it's nonsense first of all. As for repeating it, well it's
relevant to the original post in the thread about tax attorneys.
As far as COS being infiltrated and controlled by US Gov't, I do
admit that's speculation. But a logical one. I can expound on
this in detail but I'll spare you since you think it's nonsense.
What is NOT a speculation is that CST holds ultimate power
over all of Scientology, that they own all the copyrights, and
that for some strange reason most Scientologists have never
even heard of CST or know where its founders came from.
Three of the 4 names on its board aren't even Scientologists.
Now, *is* Miscavige really in total control of Scientology, as
the public has been lead to believe? Or is someone else
pulling the strings behind the scenes? That's the $64 question
that nobody except Miscavige and a few others knows for
sure.
Roland
Veritass, you chump. You keep pushing this ridiculous conspiracy theory
of yours. And the truth comes out to dispel it again and again and you
choose to ignore it. The CST was set up on the insistence of the IRS
before they would consider giving the Co$ tax exempt status. This makes
sense because if the RTC were to own the copyrights then they would be
the obvious financial beneficiaries of delivering the dreck. And so the
ownership of the copyrights had to go elsewhere with the RTC as the only
group able to use it. When you do a copyright violation the lawyer's
email will clearly state that they represent the RTC. Like this:
Dear Mr. Rashleigh-Berry:
As you are well-aware, I represent Religious Technology Center
("RTC"), the owner of the confidential Advanced Technology of the
Scientology religion and the holder of exclusive rights under the
copyrights applicable to the Advanced Technology materials. The
Advanced Technology materials are confidential, unpublished, copyrighted
works, which includes certain confidential and unpublished tape-recorded
lectures by Mr. L. Ron Hubbard. I also represent the Church of
Scientology International ("CSI"), the exclusive licensee of the
copyrights to tape-recorded lectures of the Scientology religion that
are not part of the Advanced Technology.
Why don't you read up on Captain Bill Robertson's theory that the Co$
have been taken over by the Marcabs. It is far more interesting than
your theory and holds water that bit more.
Roland
--
"I notice that we all believe that Venus has a methane atmosphere and
is unlivable. I almost got run down by a freight locomotive the other
day -- didn't look very uncivilized to me." - L. Ron Hubbard,
"Between Lives Implants" lecture, SHSBC #317. 23 July 1963.
http://www.xs4all.nl/~xemu/rams/Venusloc.ram
roger gonnet
The entire text is now translated ion frecnh onto:
http://home.worldnet.fr/gonnet/spain.htm#teleg
roger
>
> The following diplomatic cables were received in anonymous e-mail. To me
> they indicate that Scientology has been negotiating with the U.S.
> Government to not fulfil our obligations under the treaty we have with
> Spain. The cables are not classified. The amazing part is how they
> evaluate the motives and strength of the Spanish case without any regard
> for the right of a nation to try its own cases. Selected press have
> received the cables, and I plan to send them to my congressmen, senators,
> and the Spanish Embassy.
>
> UNCLASSIFIED
> UNCLAS SECTION 01 OF 02 MADRID 003029
> 2ND C O R R E C T E D C O P Y file://CLASSIFICATION ADDED TO PARAS//
ptsc
On Wed, 9 Aug 2000 07:50:02 +0200 (CEST), Nomen Nescio
<nob...@dizum.com> wrote:
>Now, *is* Miscavige really in total control of Scientology, as
>the public has been lead to believe? Or is someone else
>pulling the strings behind the scenes? That's the $64 question
>that nobody except Miscavige and a few others knows for
>sure.
Personally, I believe he is. However, to find out whether or not this
is the case, you'd have to knock down the RTC/ASI/BPI licensing fronts
and the Sea Org and then see if Miscavige ends up twisting in the
breeze or suddenly ends up COB CST.
It seems you'd have to do that to get to CST in any case, so what
difference in strategy would this make in the short term in dealing
with the corporate fronts?
One strategy the theory suggests is going straight for the throat and
arguing that CST is effectively an alter ego of RTC etc and ALWAYS
naming it in all suits. However, that still involves effectively the
same legal strategy, as well as an added expense of making complicated
alter ego arguments.
ptsc
Lronscam
Nomen Nescio says...
>Lronscam <NQSPAML...@aol.comNOTs> wrote:
>
>>Norman, you said this before and this argument was easily invalidated.
>
>I posted it a few weeks ago. I checked the NG next day, didn't
>see anyone responding to it so I figured nobody read it, and
>didn't keep track.
>
>Point out to me the post that "easily invalidated" this argument
>so I can read up on it. Date, subject and author headers please.
Christ, it doesn't take a genius to invalidate a conspiracy theorist.
Please, if you will, explain the intricacies behind how the US owns Scn'gy.
>>Do you plan on mentioning this nonsense repeatedly?
>
>I don't think it's nonsense first of all. As for repeating it, well it's
>relevant to the original post in the thread about tax attorneys.
>
>As far as COS being infiltrated and controlled by US Gov't, I do
>admit that's speculation. But a logical one. I can expound on
>this in detail but I'll spare you since you think it's nonsense.
>
>What is NOT a speculation is that CST holds ultimate power
>over all of Scientology, that they own all the copyrights, and
>that for some strange reason most Scientologists have never
>even heard of CST or know where its founders came from.
>Three of the 4 names on its board aren't even Scientologists.
>
>Now, *is* Miscavige really in total control of Scientology, as
>the public has been lead to believe? Or is someone else
>pulling the strings behind the scenes? That's the $64 question
>that nobody except Miscavige and a few others knows for
>sure.
PLONK!!! Veritas warning: (audible horns: vrooooop, vrooooop) (lights flashing)
This sounds exactly like the Veritas site.
DM owns Scn'gy. There is enough evidence to easily invalidate that CST is the
ruling body of Scn'gy. DM wants the illusion to appear as such, and you are
falling for it.
Miscavage controls Scn'gy through the SO, which he is the head of. He can close
down any one of Scn'gy's corporations in a second and start a new one, all
without blinking an eye. And he can start any corporation instantly with just
a few words (and a lot of money).
Vicki Aznaran's
affidavit of
January 1992: "Miscavige maintains absolute control over all
officers and board members of this corporation, controlling these
other members of the board of directors by fact of his possessing
undated, signed resignations of each member."
http://www.xs4all.nl/~kspaink/cos/mpoulter/sods/aznaran.html
Do you really think that if the US owned Scn'gy, they would have attacked
Ursula Caberta the way the Scn'gsts did? Get a grip on reality, please.
--
Enzo Piccone --
"Fact is that I'm perfectly able to show it, but just like I wouldn't
bother showing you the sun rises in the west and sets in the east, I
won't bother showing you what's in front of your nose but which you
don't want to confront."
Tom Klemesrud
Tilman Hausherr wrote:
>
> On 8 Aug 2000 16:20:54 GMT, rke...@netaxs.com (Rod Keller) wrote in
> <8mpc17$i...@netaxs.com>:
>
> >DRL FOR HAROLD KOH AND ROBERT SIEPEL JUSTICE FOR OIA MARGARET COTTER
>
> "Robert Seiple", a loon who travels around the world at US taxpayers
> expense to lobby for american cults.
>
> >2. (SBU) ON JULY 18 SCIENTOLOGY COUNSELS BILL WALSH AND MONIQUE YINGLING
> >PRESENTED EMBASSY REPS WITH THE SPANISH PROSECUTION'S PROPOSED SETTLEMENT,
> >IN THE FORM OF A REVISED PROSECUTION WRIT, DROPPING ALL CHARGES AGAINST
> >SCIENTOLOGY PRESIDENT HEBER JENTZSCH. THE SPANISH PROSECUTION WITHDREW THE
> >OFFER FOLLOWING A LAST MINUTE RENEGING BY ONE OF THE DEFENDANTS. THE COURT
> >SET A NEW TRIAL DATE, SEPTEMBER 25, TRIGGERING ANOTHER SPANISH REQUEST TO
> >THE USG TO SUMMON JENTZSCH.
>
> Amazing. Both are *tax* attorneys.
It's funny to me the US State Department doesn't know about the
incriminating wiretaps!
Or, the briefcase on the train.
Tom Klemesrud SP6
KoX
Tom Klemesrud
Spanish police arrest 51 Church of Scientology leaders
MADRID, Spain (UPI) _ Fifty-one leaders of the Church of
Scientology from seven countries face charges of extortion, forgery and
tax offenses following police raids, a judicial source said Monday.
Heber Jentzch of Los Angeles, 53, worldwide director of the
faith, was among the 69 suspects detained Sunday during an international
scientology congress at a luxury hotel in downtown Madrid. Eighteen of
those arrested were released Monday, the source said.
Among those being held were Scientology leaders from the United
States, Portugal, Denmark, Venezuela, Switzerland, Italy and Spain.
Police also shut down 26 of the group's offices across Spain Sunday
and seized bundles of documents.
The widespread police action culminated nine months of undercover
investigation during which 30 telephone taps were installed, said
examining magistrate Jose Maria Vazquez Honrubia.
Charges against the church include falsification of public
documents, extortion, tax evasion and capital flight.
At least one alleged kidnapping of a teenager, said Vazquez
Honrubia, was also under investigation.
The Church of Scientology was founded in the 1960s by science
fiction writer L. Ron Hubbard. Its activities in Spain center on a drug
rehabilitation program known as Narconon and a spiritual group called
the Civil Dianetic Association.
The church, outlawed in Switzerland and West Germany several years
ago, operates in about 30 countries.
APn 11/22/88 0356 Spain-Scientology
MADRID, Spain (AP) -- Police arrested 69 people in a raid on a
hotel and accused 45 of them of fraud, illegal association and forgery
for being members of the Church of Scientology.
Among those held was Heber Jentzsch, 53, of Utah, who is the
president of the Church of Scientology International, and two other
Americans, a judge told reporters at a news conference Sunday night,
hours after the raid. The other two Americans were not identified.
A court spokesman said 24 of the original 69 people arrested were
released when it was learned during questioning that they were not
leaders of the group.
Judge Jose Maria Vasquez Honrubia said that besides the Americans,
those under arrest included two French, four Italians, five
Argentines, two Mexicans, three Britons, one Swede, one Swiss, one
Chilean, one Venezuelan, one South African, one Peruvian and 20
Spaniards.
The raid was conducted on the headquarters of Narconon, a drug
rehabilitation program, Dianetics and the Civil Association of Applied
Philosophy, all associated with the Church of Scientology.
In 1986 and again last June, Spain's Justice Ministry rejected a
petition by the Church of Scientology for accreditation as a
legitimate religious institution on the grounds that the group's
activities "negatively affected public health."
The raid at a Madrid hotel was carried out after a nine-month
police investigation, during which wiretaps indicated the group was
planning an international meeting in the city, the judge said.
Vasquez Honrubia said those under arrest would be charged with
fraud, illegal association, coercion, forgery of public documents, tax
evasion and failure to meet social security payments.
He did not specify what type of forgery and fraud the organizers
had engaged in, but news reports said at least one fraud charge
stemmed from Narconon's attempts to convince its drug addict clients
to join the Church of Scientology as part of their treatment.
In a statement released Monday in Washington, the Church of
Scientology condemned the raid as "an outrageous act of injustice."
"Whoever is behind these acts of harassment obviously stands to
profit from increased drug proliferation and addiction," the statement
said.
According to information distributed by the organization, the
Church of Scientology has offices in 30 countries.
Litigation is pending against the organization in the United
States, where it was founded in 1954 by L. Ron Hubbard, who died in
1986.
In 1984, the U.S. government began an investigation of Hubbard's
tax returns after the Internal Revenue Service said it suspected
millions of dollars in church funds had been transferred to Hubbard to
protect the church's tax-exempt status and to avoid paying taxes.
Scientologists said the FBI, the CIA, the IRS and other government
agencies took part in a conspiracy to harass the organization in
violation of its religious freedom.
The U.S. Supreme Court is considering the case. A ruling is likely
to be handed down by July.
[...]
COURT OF INSTRUCTION 21
MADRID
D / Previas 2663/84
DECREE OF THE COMMENCEMENT OF ORAL TRIAL
In Madrid on the twelfth of December of nineteen hundred and
ninety four.
PARTICULARS
FIRST. - On January 18th of 1993 the decree resolving
compliance with the procedure enjoined in Chapter II of Title III
of Volume IV of the Law of Criminal Prosecution, the fourth of the
resolutions listed in section V of article 789, and in accordance
with the first paragraph of section 1 of article 790 of the
aforementioned Law, in said resolution it was so disposed to effect
the transfer provided for in said legal precept.
SECOND. - Upon having executed the accorded transfer, the
District Attorney's Office and the accusations represented by the
Procurer Don Evencio Conde de Gregorio and Do$a Remedios Yolanda
Luna Sierra, they have presented, in time and form, legal briefs
soliciting the opening of the oral trial before the Illustrious
Provincial Audience of Madrid and formulating a writ of accusation.
JUDICAL FOUNDATION
FIRST. - Exhibiting, in principle and without prejudgment, the
qualities
of the felonies of illicit association, threats, coercion, usurpation of
functions, false accusation, simulation of a felony, illegal arrest,
crimes
against the Tax Administration, crimes against freedom and safety in the
workplace, intrusion, crimes against public health, injuries, damages,
abuse,
slander and inducement to suicide, the particulars which have been the
object
of the present lawsuit and sufficient incriminating elements having been
made
manifest from the actions which have been carried out to attribute these
to
Heber Jentzch, Arturo Reguera Ardanza, Maria del Carmen Munoz Rosal,
Santiago
Vadillo Aceves, Ma. Victory de Blas
Arribas, Enrique Coll Llopis, Valentin Fernandez-Tubau Rodes, Virgilio
Castellanos Saiz, Carlos Aliaga Aznar, Manuel Ruiz Serrano, Enrique
Ayuso
Ferrer, Ma. Antonia Navarro Castillo, Ma. Monserrat Aguilera Martin,
Alfonso
Marin Rodriguez, Ma. Luis Pere Aguilar, Ma. Belen Martin Garcia, Jose
Manuel
Villarejo Perez, Judith Francos Abancos, Humberto Fontana, Finn Gerald
Thomas
and Harold Claude Roussart, - who have been accused, and the
commencement of
the oral trial having been requested, it proceeds to decree the
commencement
of said oral trial, summoning the accused so that they may defend
themselves
in the form legally contemplated, and adopting at the same time the
precautionary measures necessary to insure the outcome of the trial.
SECOND. - Pursuant to article 790,6, fourth paragraph, in relation
with
article 14, third and fourth, of the Law of Criminal Prosecution, and
the
petitions of the District Attorney's Office and of the private
accusations
having been examined, the Illusterous Provincial Audience of Madrid
(Section
No.4) must be indicated as the competent agency for the prosecution and
resolution of this lawsuit.
THIRD. - Pursuant to the penalties solicited in said writs of
accusation,
as well as the quantity of civil liabilities, it is proper to adopt the
precautionary measures in the terms which will be expressed in the
stipulations section of this resolution.
FOURTH. - Although the commencement of the oral trial has been
solicited,
formulating the accusation against a specific person or persons, the
first
paragraph of section 6 of article 790 of the Law of Criminal Prosecution
empowers to the Judge of Instruction to decree the dismissal of the
lawsuit
when he consider there is concurrence with what is contemplated in
number 2
of
article 637 of this Law or that there does not exist rational
indications of
criminality against the accused and so it occurs with respect to the
accused
by the private accusation represented by the Procurer Don Evencio Conde
de
Gregorio, Kurt Weiland, Per Ake Gardstrom, William Knight and Peter
Warren
and
so from a given examination of the proceedings which have been practiced
it
appears that there does not exist rational indications of criminality
against
said accused with respect to the felonies that are imputed by said
private
accusation, since at no time, throughout this long delayed proceeding
were
their declarations heard in the investigation phase, in quality of
imputed,
neither were they informed of the
imputation directed against them, nor of their legally established
rights
which would assist them and therefore have not, during the investigation
phase, had the possibility of making whatever allegations that they
might
have
considered appropriate in their defense in the instruction phase, nor
the
execution of whatever procedures which they might have judged relevant
towards
the same end, consequently, not having acquired previously the condition
of
being charged, and not being recognized such fell accusations in our
judicial
ordinance, the participation of these accused persons in the commission
of
the
crimes which said private accusation imputes to them not ensuing either
from
the documental evidence or
from the balance of from the formal actions practiced, whereby, in
accordance
with what is disposed in article 641, 2' of the Law of Criminal
Prosecution,
the provisional abatement of the lawsuit with respect to the accused
Kurt
Weiland, Per Ake Gardstrom, William Knight and Peter Warren.
FIFTH. - Upon stipulating in this decree the rulings enjoined by
the
mentioned legal procedures, at the same time it must be specified
according
to
what has been stipulated about the sequence of the proceedings in
article 791
of the Law of Criminal Prosecution.
In attention to that which has been set forth,
I HEREBY ORDER:
1ST. - To decree the commencement of the oral trial and to consider
this
criminal lawsuit to be founded on the felonies of illicit association,
threats, coercion, usurpation of functions, false accusation, simulation
of a
felony, illegal arrest, crimes against the Tax Administration, crimes
against
freedom and safety in the workplace, intrusion, crimes against the
public
health,
injuries, damages, abuse, slander and inducement to suicide, against
HEBER
JENTSZCH, ARTURO REGUERA ARDANZA, MARIA DEL CARMEN MU%OZ ROSAL, SANTIAGO
VADILLO ACEVES, MARIA VICTORY DE BLAS ARRIBAS, ENRIQUE COLL LLOPIS,
VALENTIN
FERNANDEZ-TUBAU RODES, VIRGILIO CASTELLANOS SAIZ, CARLOS ALIAGA AZNAR,
MANUEL
RUIZ SERRANO, ENRIQUE AYUSO FERRER, MARIA ANTONIA NAVARRO CASTILLO,
MARIA
MONSERRAT AGUILERA MARTIN, ALFONSO MARIN RODRIGUEZ, MARIA LUIS PEREZ
AGUILAR,
MARIA BELEN MARTIN GARCIA, JOSE MANUEL VILLAREJO PEREZ, JUDITH FRANCOS
ABANCOS, HUMBERTO FONTANA, FINN GERALD THOMAS, and HAROLD CLAUDE
ROUSSART.
2ND. - The following precautionary measures are hereby ordered.
a). - To decree the provisional release of the accused.
b). - It is decreed, as a civil accountability, the sum of one
hundred
sixty million eight hundred forty one thousand two hundred seventy one
pesetas
(160.841.271), to guarantee the financial responsibilities that could be
declared pertinent. Require of Heber Jentzch, Arturo Reguera Ardanza,
Maria
del Carmen Mu$oz Rosal, Santiago Vadillo Aceves, Maria Victory de Blas
Arribas, Enrique
Coll Llopis, Valentin Fernandez-Tubau Rodes, Virgilio Castellanos Saiz,
Carlos Aliaga Aznar, Manuel Ruiz Serrano, Enrique Ayuso Ferrer, Maria
Antonia
Castillo, Maria Monserrat Aguilera Martin, Alfonso Marin Rodriguez,
Maria
Luis
Perez Aguilar, Maria Belen Martin Garcia, Jose Manuel Villarejo Perez,
Judith
Francos Abancos, Humberto Fontana, Finn Gerald Thomas, and Harold Claude
Roussart so
that within the period of one audience and in solidarity they present
this
amount, with the admonition of the fact that if they do not deliver it
within
the stipulated period, that the court will proceed to seize assets of
their
property in sufficient proportion to cover it. Compose a separate legal
action
of civil responsibility with the documentation of it concerning this
specific.
The Illustrious Provincial Audience of Madrid (fourth section) is
appointed as the judicially competent agency for the hearing and the
verdict
of the present lawsuit.
Subpoena the accused with delivery of the copies of the writs of
accusation so that in the period of three days they may appoint Attorney
and
Procurer to defend and represent them; and if this is not done, name
them at
the state's expense and once satisfied this action, transfer to them a
copy
of
the proceedings in photocopy so that within the period of 60 days they
may
present their writs of defense in opposition to the formulated
accusations.
3rd. - To deny the opening of oral trial solicited by the private
accusation represented by the Procurer Sr. Conde de Gregorio against
Kurt
Weiland, Per Ake Gardstrom, William Knight and Peter Warren and decree
with
respect to the same the provisional abatement of the present lawsuit.
There is no appeal permitted in opposition to the section of the
decree
of commencement of the oral trial, except in what is related to the
personal
situation of the accused. An appellate recourse in opposition to the
section
of the decree which denies the opening of the oral trial may be
formulated
within the period of five days.
Thusly do I decree and sign D& Maria Paz Redondo Gil,
Magistrate Judge of the Tribunal of Instruction 21 of Madrid.
[..]
Tom Klemesrud
Date: 15 Oct 1995 20:30:45 -0700
Reply-To: mi...@crl.com
From: mi...@crl.com (Andrew Milne)
To: LRH-L <LR...@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: Is Imprisonment In Spain A Denial Of Religious Freedom?
Steve A (ste...@castlsys.demon.co.uk) wrote:
: Heebie-Jeebie Jentzch is under indictment in Spain for a multitude of
: I think Spain is going to hit the CoS where it hurts. I hope that
: other jurisdictions have the good sense to watch the Spanish example
: closely, and deal with Scientology appropriately.
The following article is edited from a story that
appeared in the Spain edition of Freedom magazine. I have
posting it here to answer questions that have been raised
about the Scientologists indicted in Spain.
The Spain story begins in 1986, when Judge of Instruction
Jose-Maria Vasquez Honrubia was involved in a high-publicity
case concerning the Interior Brigade -- an internal police
intelligence unit under the Ministry of the Interior -- on
suspicion that members spied on opposing political parties.
Then a young judge, sources indicate that Honrubia perhaps
hoped to obtain as much power and publicity as possible for
himself through his handling of the Interior Brigade case.
Prosecutor Sr. Ladron worked with Judge Sr. Vazquez
Honrubia on the handling of the case, an arrangement which
was symbiotic for the two -- and one which would remain in
place for other cases in years to come.
At the same time that Judge Sr. Vazquez Honrubia was
closing in on the Interior Brigade, the unit was trying to
pursue a meritless investigation into alleged actions of
Church members years earlier.
Hoping to avoid prosecution and conviction, brigade
chief Alberto Elias Hernandez -- who was also the key
proponent of the faltering investigation of Spanish
Scientologists -- apparently realized what seemed to be the
real issue behind Judge Sr. Vazquez Honrubia's drive in the
brigade case: the need for a high-profile case which would
lend him power and publicity. Chief Elias perhaps saw a
solution which would satisfy both Judge Sr. Vazquez Honrubia
and himself.
Evidence indicates that offering up the Church members
as a "substitute" for dropping the brigade case, Elias
informed Judge Sr. Vazquez Honrubia that the Church members'
case would provide more lasting publicity, and that his unit
would provide all the support and investigation needed.
Apparently, the proposal was accepted. After Judge Sr.
Vazquez Honrubia made his token gesture and announced that he
recommended prosecution of two police chiefs, including
Alberto Elias Hernandez, as covered in international media on
October 21, 1988, nothing was heard again on the case -- and
Elias remained on his job in the brigade.
On November 20, 1988, a convention of the International
Association of Scientologists, a worldwide membership
organization for parishioners of Churches of Scientology, was
held in Madrid. This peaceful gathering was then raided by
the Spanish police by order of Judge Sr. Vazquez Honrubia.
Seventy-two convention delegates and attendees were
arrested. The arrest warrant included an instruction to
arrest "all foreigners" -- thus, people from the United
States, the United Kingdom, France, Sweden, Switzerland,
Denmark, Portugal and South Africa were arrested merely
because they were foreigners -- and Scientologists.
Prior to the raid, the Spanish media had been quietly
alerted to the police action by official sources. As a
result, television crews stood by, ready to film the police
in action as soon as they arrived. Judge Sr. Vazquez
Honrubia got his publicity.
After the raid, Judge Sr. Vazquez Honrubia declared to
the press that he was seeking people who would come forward
with complaints concerning the Church of Scientology, an
event unheard of in most civilized countries where the
judiciary is obliged to be unbiased. This made it clear that
Judge Sr. Vazquez Honrubia did not have a well-founded case
to begin with and therefore had to solicit complaints, vainly
hoping to justify his actions.
Other evidence of impropriety surfaced as well.
Shortly after the raid, two articles appeared in the media
which quoted from the confidential summary of the case --
clearly violating the law on the secrecy of instruction.
Other news accounts also quoted from documents which
were not seized as part of the raid, but rather were stolen
from a Church staff member before the raid, in violation of
the rules of good faith. And yet another quoted from a
confidential summary which alluded to the interrogation of a
private investigator -- though he never had been
interrogated. The reporter, when challenged in court,
produced evidence which showed that he had obtained his
information from the court of instruction, number 21, Madrid.
For 72 hours after the raid, during which time the
detainees were vigorously interrogated regarding their
religious beliefs by Judge Sr. Vazquez Honrubia and
Prosecutor Sr. Ladron, 11 people, including the Reverend
Heber C. Jentzsch, president of the Church of Scientology
International, were kept in prison. The others were
released; 12 of them, not Spanish nationals, were deported.
However, Rev. Jentzsch was held even though his name
appeared nowhere on the warrant or any of the related
documents. Indeed, Rev. Jentzsch had been in Spain for less
than 24 hours and had *never been to Spain before in his
life*. But, as an internationally known and respected
spokesman and ambassador for the Scientology religion, Rev.
Jentzsch's name would provide the publicity that the
prosecution sought so covetously.
Rev. Jentzsch was detained in prison for three weeks
in extremely humiliating conditions. There was no heat and
no hot water despite the cold winter weather, and he did not
have one decent meal during this entire period. As Rev.
Jentzsch learned from prisoners who had been there for some
time, a warden was reported to be stealing the money for
heating for two years -- and putting anyone who tried to heat
their own water into solitary confinement for doing so. Rev.
Jentzsch vowed to campaign to bring heat to prisoners and,
upon his release, at which time he exposed the horrible
prison conditions to media. Owing to the outcry which
ensued, the prison authority was obliged to finally restore
heating to the inmates.
While in prison Rev. Jentzsch was subject to bizarre
acts of malice. In one case, this came in the form of an
impeccably dressed "prisoner" who showed up in the cell right
next to him. Within two hours of his arrival, he had brought
together virtually all of the Muslim prisoners and told them
that Rev. Jentzsch was a member of the Mossad, Israel's
secret service agency. Aside from the absolute falsity of
such a statement, the man had never even spoken to Rev.
Jentzsch.
In this prison containing more than 70 Muslim
prisoners, to be labeled "Mossad" was the kiss of death.
Only by calling in another prisoner, having him translate the
false statements and then by personally speaking to nearly
every one of the Muslim prisoners, was Rev. Jentzsch able to
avoid the threat of bodily harm.
Thousands of letters and telegrams were written from
countries around the world in support of Rev. Jentzsch and
to condemn this atrocious injustice by the Spanish
authorities. These included letters from political leaders,
religious leaders including Dean Kelley of the National
Council of Churches, Marvin Bordelon of the Roman Catholic
Church and president of the American Conference on Religious
Movements, and many others. Internationally known artists
and performers such as Julia Migenes, Chick Corea and Maxine
Nightingale came to Spain to voice their support for their
friend Rev. Jentzsch -- and their outrage at his unjust
incarceration.
He was eventually released on bail -- raised through
contributions from Scientologists around the world -- but was
not allowed to leave the country. Three months later, in
March 1989, Rev. Jentzsch finally was permitted to leave
Spain, but only because of the failing health of his elderly
mother.
Years later, the deplorable conditions of the Spanish
jails which Rev. Jentzsch encountered and exposed were
confirmed by the U.S. State Department. In a February 1995
report entitled "Spain Human Rights Practices, 1994," the
State Department found "documented cases of abuse" of Spanish
law and human rights -- not the least of which were prisoners
who were held for as long as six years before trial and some
who died or were murdered in jail before making it to trial.
The ludicrous accusations in the warrant stand in
sharp contrast to the peaceful practice of the Scientology
religion by ministerial staff of the Church of Scientology in
Spain and the admirable and beneficial work of the staff of
Narconon, an international, nonprofit drug rehabilitation
organization utilizing methods developed by Scientology
Founder L. Ron Hubbard.
The alleged acts date back to mid-1984, more than a
decade ago. Not one of the individuals arrested was
guilty of anything. And because prior to November 20, 1988,
Rev. Jentzsch had never so much as visited Spain, he clearly
could not have conducted any of the affairs alleged in the
warrant. However, in a practice that is reminiscent of the
inquisition rather than modern democracy and even against
the present provisions of constitutional and criminal law,
Spanish law allows a person to be jailed on the basis of
accusations and without any real evidence.
One source of false charges was John Caban, an
excommunicated Scientologist and jewelry dealer who,
according to sources, has been investigated for gold
smuggling and other irregularities, and who has sought to
obtain control of the Church in Spain for many years. Caban
was also subject to a complaint from his ex-wife for
misappropriating property so as to escape turning it over as
part of their divorce proceedings.
Caban's idea of "justice" was demonstrated when he
convinced another former and now excommunicated Scientologist
to write a bizarre document containing fabricated accusations
about the Church, and then forwarded it to a court -- without
her knowledge. That same woman later retracted her statement
before the judge.
Thereafter, the case progressed slowly and, with every
month that passed, Judge Sr. Vazquez Honrubia came under
more and more fire for his handling of the case. In 1989,
the case was finally transferred to the National Court.
In November 1991, after reviewing the case, the
National Court decided that there was no evidence of fraud or
any monetary crimes -- the core of the original allegations
-- which would have necessitated its hearing the case. The
court remanded the matter to the local Madrid court to
dispense with the remaining misdemeanor allegations. After
the case was sent back to the local court in Madrid, a new
Judge of Instruction was assigned.
For several years, the case lay dormant. Then, in
March 1994, Prosecutor Sr. Ladron again attempted to piece
together a case that would correspond to the 1988 arrests and
the subsequent detentions.
Freedom investigative sources reveal that the true
motivation for Prosecutor Sr. Ladron's revival of the dead
charges likely stemmed from his long-standing animosity
against the Church.
From his side, Judge Sr. Vazquez Honrubia was
apparently still stung by the loss of the case against the
Church members. First sent to the National Court, it was
gutted and then sent to back to the local court -- and a new
Judge of instruction. Judge Sr. Vazquez Honrubia felt
strongly that the only way to save face was through revival
of the case, according to information obtained by Freedom .
Freedom sources indicate that he therefore did everything
possible to stir the case into action again.
From the church's perspective, the prosecutor's "new"
writ is contrary to the rights guaranteed by the Spanish
Constitution by engaging in an inquisition aimed at
destroying the rights of the Church of Scientology. It could
well also be used to the detriment of other religious
minorities in Spain.
On July 15, 1994, Prosecutor Sr. Ladron submitted his
"writ" (a formal recommendation for determination of the
case, recommending that the case be set for trial) to the new
Judge of Instruction.
The writ reveals a position of religious intolerance,
twists the basic doctrine and beliefs of the Church and
distorts its real purpose. It also forwards completely
baseless accusations against the Church of Scientology and
its president.
The prosecutor even advanced the idea that the Church
had organized itself to avoid paying taxes; in so doing,
without any facts to hand, he utterly ignored the 1993 United
States Internal Revenue Service (IRS) determination. After
completing an exhaustive two-year examination of the
organizational structure, activities and financial affairs of
Scientology churches and leaders, the IRS held that all
churches of Scientology in the nation, as well as
international-level churches such as the mother church, the
Church of Scientology International, are religious
institutions organized and operated solely for charitable,
religious purposes. It even examined Churches outside of the
United States.
The writ is rife with untrue generalities and contains
no specific evidence against individual defendants.
Nevertheless, the court allowed the travesty to continue. On
December 20, 1994, the Judge of Instruction issued a
four-page decision in which she sent 21 people to trial,
including Rev. Jentzsch, on a variety of charges. Once
again, there are no specifics as to who is charged with what
alleged improper conduct. Nor is any specific unlawful act
alleged -- it is merely a list of accusations and a list of
people ordered to stand trial.
The indictment and Prosecutor Sr. Ladron's writ are a
classic study in inquisition-style justice. It should not be
tolerated by officials in any civilized country.
Leaders and legislators the world over have written to
Spanish officials to condemn these latest acts of the Court,
including Los Angeles City Councilman Richard Alatorre,
pastors of Methodist Churches, members of the British House
of Lords and many others.
Six years ago, Spanish authorities acted on unfounded
reports that are now 10 years old. Some tried to justify
their attacks by pointing out that the Church did not have
full recognition and tax exemption in the United States.
This was obviously a fabrication for their assault on the
religion. That issue should have been completely resolved by
the IRS' full recognition in 1993 of all of the churches of
Scientology in America as well as related charitable
organizations.
The Church of Scientology will use all possible legal
means to see that forces of intolerance do not prevail in
their attempts to destroy religious freedom in Spain or to
prevent the Church from helping those, such as victims of
harmful drugs, in need of assistance. And to see that those
who escaped harm at the expense of innocent Scientologists
are brought to justice.
Tom Klemesrud
> > UNCLASSIFIED
Mephistopheles51
>> The following diplomatic cables were received in anonymous e-mail.
Rod, have you tried verifying the authenticity of these cables with the U.S.
State Department? Have you heard from any of the reporters that you sent them
to, as it might be possible for them to authenticate them where you can not.
They're diplomatic communiques, and therefore classified by nature, I believe,
at least as "CONFIDENTIAL." The apparent fact that they carry an "UNCLASS, BUT
SENSITIVE" designation makes the hair stand up on the back of my neck.
A sneaking suspicion tells me that someone wants to generate a large amount of
animosity towards the cult with regard to Heber's trial in Spain. It may be
the cult, and it may be a critic. The only way to be sure is to authenticate
the cables.
Don't believe the hype*
*and it's all hype
To reply, remove the obvious.
roger gonnet
Tom Klemesrud <tom...@netins.net> a écrit dans le message :
3992031E...@netins.net...
>
>
> Tilman Hausherr wrote:
> >
> > On 8 Aug 2000 16:20:54 GMT, rke...@netaxs.com (Rod Keller) wrote in
> > <8mpc17$i...@netaxs.com>:
> >
> >
> > expense to lobby for american cults.
> >
YINGLING
> > >PRESENTED EMBASSY REPS WITH THE SPANISH PROSECUTION'S PROPOSED
SETTLEMENT,
> > >IN THE FORM OF A REVISED PROSECUTION WRIT, DROPPING ALL CHARGES AGAINST
> > >SCIENTOLOGY PRESIDENT HEBER JENTZSCH. THE SPANISH PROSECUTION WITHDREW
THE
> > >OFFER FOLLOWING A LAST MINUTE RENEGING BY ONE OF THE DEFENDANTS. THE
COURT
> > >SET A NEW TRIAL DATE, SEPTEMBER 25, TRIGGERING ANOTHER SPANISH REQUEST
TO
> > >THE USG TO SUMMON JENTZSCH.
> >
>
> It's funny to me the US State Department doesn't know about the
> incriminating wiretaps!
> Or, the briefcase on the train.
Well, we have sometimes some great informers, even guys high placed into the
IRS-boyfriends of the criminal culties.
In fact, observing a bit more of thes eindiscretions having existed these
last years, we see that the criminal cult is not very extended; because the
more it extends, the more it gets enemies, then, the more we get such
indiscretions.
as we don't get that many, that's proof that they are not numerous (we knew,
but it's one evidence more).
roger
marc...@amigo.net.gt
rke...@netaxs.com (Rod Keller) wrote:
Me parece interesante que no quieran dar su brazo a torcer y protejan
al criminal Heber Jentzsch representante de la secta destructiva y
criminal de la Cienciologia, de que obtenga sus bien merecidos 56 años
de carcel por los cargos bien conocidos en los juzgados de MADRID, esto
parece mas una confabulacion de todos los diablos para que estos [los
Cienciologos] sigan estafando a todo aquel que se les ponga en frente y
se rian de las autoridades y de la ley...
[Nota si sabe alguien como hacer llegar este mensaje a los peridicos
pertinentes se los agradecere]
Saludos
--
Marcab_4
http://www.xenu.net
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Rod Keller
: Rod, have you tried verifying the authenticity of these cables with the U.S.
: State Department? Have you heard from any of the reporters that you sent them
: to, as it might be possible for them to authenticate them where you can not.
All the feedback I have received indicates that they are genuine.
: They're diplomatic communiques, and therefore classified by nature, I believe,
: at least as "CONFIDENTIAL." The apparent fact that they carry an "UNCLASS, BUT
: SENSITIVE" designation makes the hair stand up on the back of my neck.
Apparently that is normal. It would take more effort than it's worth to
classify them, and you would have to justify the classification of each
paragraph.
: A sneaking suspicion tells me that someone wants to generate a large amount of
: animosity towards the cult with regard to Heber's trial in Spain. It may be
: the cult, and it may be a critic. The only way to be sure is to authenticate
: the cables.
Consider them authentic. I believe they are available under the FOIA.
--
Rod Keller / rke...@voicenet.com / Irresponsible Publisher
Black Hat #1 / Expert of the Toilet / CWPD Mouthpiece / Killer Rod
The Lerma Apologist / Merchant of Chaos / Vision of Destruction
Bigot of Mystery / OSA Patsy / Quasi-Scieno / Mental Bully
David Lesher
>Rod, have you tried verifying the authenticity of these cables with the U.S.
>State Department? Have you heard from any of the reporters that you sent them
>to, as it might be possible for them to authenticate them where you can not.
>They're diplomatic communiques, and therefore classified by nature, I believe,
>at least as "CONFIDENTIAL." The apparent fact that they carry an "UNCLASS, BUT
>SENSITIVE" designation makes the hair stand up on the back of my neck.
False. A cable carries whatever classification the writer assigns
it. Thousands of cables are Unclassifed. You think ordering more
toilet paper is a TS matter??
It is by-the-book to label each paragraph, as well. It is common
to have multiple (U)nclassified paragraphs, and but one that is
(SBU),(C),(S), or (TS). [I think SBU replaced LOU, but I'm not sure.]
In short, if it is a forgery, it is a good one. Tags are in the
correct place. Various other indicators are as well. It reads
exactly as such a cable would read, in grammar, voice etc. The author
knew how to write cables, in other words.
>The only way to be sure is to authenticate the cables.
Agreed. FOIA time.
--
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433
David Lesher
>Apparently that is normal. It would take more effort than it's worth to
>classify them, and you would have to justify the classification of each
>paragraph.
False. Thousands of things, government-wide, are unnecessarily
classified daily. Every commission that reviews the policies on such
finds that.
(Of course, needlessly classifying something is/was against USG
policy; but that was honored more in the breech.)
But this had no grounds to be classified, and was not. It shows
the drafter did understood the rules and the law.
mimus
>Tilman Hausherr <til...@berlin.snafu.de> wrote:
>
>>>DRL FOR HAROLD KOH AND ROBERT SIEPEL JUSTICE FOR OIA MARGARET
>>>COTTER
>>
>>"Robert Seiple", a loon who travels around the world at US taxpayers
>>expense to lobby for american cults.
>>
>>>2. (SBU) ON JULY 18 SCIENTOLOGY COUNSELS BILL WALSH AND MONIQUE
>>>YINGLING PRESENTED EMBASSY REPS WITH THE SPANISH PROSECUTION'S
>>>PROPOSED SETTLEMENT, IN THE FORM OF A REVISED PROSECUTION WRIT,
>>>DROPPING ALL CHARGES AGAINST SCIENTOLOGY PRESIDENT HEBER
>>>JENTZSCH. THE SPANISH PROSECUTION WITHDREW THE OFFER FOLLOWING
>>>A LAST MINUTE RENEGING BY ONE OF THE DEFENDANTS. THE COURT SET A
>>>NEW TRIAL DATE, SEPTEMBER 25, TRIGGERING ANOTHER SPANISH REQUEST
>>>TO THE USG TO SUMMON JENTZSCH.
>>
>>Amazing. Both are *tax* attorneys.
>
>Very amazing indeed. How the hell is the cult of Scientology making the
>U.S. government to go around lobbying on its behalf? Not too long ago
>the U.S. gov't was RAIDING Scientology and trying to close it down.
>
>The answer I think, is that Scientology has been infiltrated and is now
>controlled by the gov't. That seems to be the best explanation.
Try it the other way around.
Do you think "Snow White" was the first, or the last, such
"Operation"?
I saw
many people
reduced to
incoherent babbling,
stripping off clothes,
crawling around on the ground,
banging heads, limbs and other body parts
against furniture and walls,
barking,
losing all sense of one's identity
and intense and persistent suicidal ideation.
--Declaration of Andre Tabayoyon
I'm an OT.--Lisa McPherson
If you imagine 40-50 Scientologists
posting on the Internet every few days,
we'll just run the SP's right off the system.
It will be quite simple, actually.
--Elaine Siegel, OSA INT (1996)
Case 5/BTLA/SP1
mimus
>On 8 Aug 2000 16:20:54 GMT, rke...@netaxs.com (Rod Keller) wrote:
>
>>4. (SBU) WE REPLIED THAT WE AGREE THE CASE AGAINST JENTZSCH IS EXTREMELY
>>WEAK (GRANTED, WE HAVEN'T SEEN THE EVIDENCE, BUT FROM OUR PERSPECTIVE, IT
>>APPEARS TO BORDER ON THE ABSURD)
>
>They haven't seen (ie aren't interested in seeing) the evidence but
>they have the fucking gall to comment on the case anyway?
That might be a diplomatic--eg, weasel--formulation:
"We * replied * that", etc.
mimus
>The following diplomatic cables were received in anonymous e-mail. To me
>they indicate that Scientology has been negotiating with the U.S.
>Government to not fulfil our obligations under the treaty we have with
>Spain. The cables are not classified. The amazing part is how they
>evaluate the motives and strength of the Spanish case without any regard
>for the right of a nation to try its own cases. Selected press have
>received the cables, and I plan to send them to my congressmen, senators,
>and the Spanish Embassy.
>
>UNCLASSIFIED
>UNCLAS SECTION 01 OF 02 MADRID 003029
>2ND C O R R E C T E D C O P Y //CLASSIFICATION ADDED TO PARAS//
>STATE FOR CA/OCS/EUR AND L/LEI - KEN PROPP
>DRL FOR HAROLD KOH AND ROBERT SIEPEL JUSTICE FOR OIA MARGARET COTTER
>SENSITIVE BUT UNCLASSIFIED
>E.O. 12958: N/A
>TAGS: CJAN,PHUM,CASC,PREL,SP
>SUBJECT: MEETING WITH SCIENTOLOGY LAWYERS: USG SHOULD COMPLY WITH MLAT,
>BUT FIRST TRY TO AVOID TRIAL
>REFS: A) 99 MADRID 4748; (B) 99 MADRID 5061
>
>1. (SBU) SUMMARY: IN A JULY 18 MEETING WITH CG, POLCOUNS AND FSN LEGAL
>ADVISOR, US LAWYERS DEFENDING THE CHURCH OF SCTENTOLOGY AGAINST SPANISH
>PROSECUTION AGAIN ASKED THE EMBASSY TO RECOMMEND DENYING SPAIN'S REQUEST
>TO SERVE SUMMONS TO AMCIT HEBER JENTZSCH UNDER THE MUTUAL LEGAL ASSISTANCE
>TREATY. THIS BEING OUR THIRD MEETING, WE AGAIN REITERATED OUR VIEW THAT
>SERVICE OF SUMMONS AGAINST MR. JENTZSCH WOULD NOT PREJUDICE "THE SECURITY
>OR SIMILAR ESSENTIAL INTERESTS" OF THE US, THE STANDARD REQUIRED TO DENY
>AN MLAT REQUEST (ARTICLE 3). ON THE CONTRARY, DENYING THE REQUEST WOULD
>JEOPARDIZE ESSENTIAL US LAW ENFORCEMENT INTERESTS. WE BELIEVE THE SPANISH
>CASE IS EXTREMELY WEAK AND FRAUGHT WITH ANOMALIES, BUT THESE ARE
>ESSENTIALLY LEGAL, NOT RELIGIOUS, IN NATURE. WE ARE ALSO CONVINCED IT IS
>EXTREMELY UNLIKELY THE CASE WILL GO TO TRIAL, EVEN LESS LIKELY JENTZSCH
>WOULD BE CONVICTED IF IT DID, AND BEYOND CONCEPTION THAT HE WOULD SERVE
>ANY TIME IF CONVICTED. HOWEVER, WE RECOMMEND DOJ DELAY SERVING SUMMONS TO
>PROVIDE MORE TIME FOR A SETTLEMENT, WHILE WE FOLLOW UP ON WHAT TO DO IN
>SPAIN TO AVOID A TRIAL. END SUMMARY.
Delaying things for twelve years apparently isn't enough . . . .
Mike Jackson
Rod,
My experience with Diplomatic Messages are that they are always sent
over encryted data circuits, and that they are always classfied. Now
if someone wants you to believe that this is genuine, they messed up
in two ways. 1) They would have to be on the transmitting end or
receiving end with access to the clear-text message (line taps do no
good on an encrypted circuit) which then leads to 2) All diplomatic
messages are classified to some degree and releasing them before they
are declassified or without *high* approval consistutes a security
violation with repercussions similar to the Walker Family
Just my expert opinion. (21 Years of military computer/crypto
maintenance and secure network design)
-Mike
rke...@netaxs.com (Rod Keller) wrote:
>Mephistopheles51 (mephisto...@aol.comNOSPAM) wrote:
>: Rod, have you tried verifying the authenticity of these cables with the U.S.
>: State Department? Have you heard from any of the reporters that you sent them
>: to, as it might be possible for them to authenticate them where you can not.
>
>All the feedback I have received indicates that they are genuine.
>
>: They're diplomatic communiques, and therefore classified by nature, I believe,
>: at least as "CONFIDENTIAL." The apparent fact that they carry an "UNCLASS, BUT
>: SENSITIVE" designation makes the hair stand up on the back of my neck.
>
>Apparently that is normal. It would take more effort than it's worth to
>classify them, and you would have to justify the classification of each
>paragraph.
>
>: A sneaking suspicion tells me that someone wants to generate a large amount of
>: animosity towards the cult with regard to Heber's trial in Spain. It may be
>: the cult, and it may be a critic. The only way to be sure is to authenticate
>: the cables.
>
Rod Keller
: My experience with Diplomatic Messages are that they are always sent
: over encryted data circuits, and that they are always classfied. Now
: if someone wants you to believe that this is genuine, they messed up
: in two ways. 1) They would have to be on the transmitting end or
: receiving end with access to the clear-text message (line taps do no
: good on an encrypted circuit) which then leads to 2) All diplomatic
: messages are classified to some degree and releasing them before they
: are declassified or without *high* approval consistutes a security
: violation with repercussions similar to the Walker Family
:
: Just my expert opinion. (21 Years of military computer/crypto
: maintenance and secure network design)
While I have no such experience, I have been assured that these have all
the marks of being genuine. The routing, the standard abbreviations, the
names, the classification, everything. I have no indication that they were
intercepted or the encryption broken in any way. I have to assume that
somebody in either Justice or State with access to the text was just being
helpful. They are certainly classified to some degree, the level being
"Sensitive but Unclassified," abbreviated "SBU" in front of every
paragraph, which is the lowest level. I think if they ever found which of
the thousands of people who had access to them sent me an anonymous email,
they would probably earn a stern talking to. If they had been more highly
classified, I expect I would have heard from somebody by now.
Instead of debating their authenticity, I think a more practical line of
question is: Why is the U.S. Government doing the work of Scientology in
interfering with a criminal case in Spain? Why are they shirking their
obligations under treaty? How dare they rate other countries (a standard
practice, I hear) by their level of compliance with MLATs? Why do they
take it upon themselves without benefit of examining the evidence to
question the case of the Spanish prosecutor, much less questioning his
motives?
It's funny how it works when you talk to people about Scientology. An
official I spoke to was most interested, in part because two friends of
his spent over $300,000 on Scientology. S/he has been doing quite a bit of
Internet research over the last few days, an eye-opening experience.
Mike Jackson
Rod,
Respectfully, this message screams "TROLL" to me. I can send you an
anon message complete with headers, footers (guess what anon
forgot??), paragraph markers and remarkably correct AIG's (ask
Starshadow or Chris Owen) that the Attorney General's office in
concert with foreign law enforcement are going to raid the co$, but
that doesn't mean it's true. My humble advice would be to see how
this plays out and see if you were played like a puppet. Oh, and a
"Stern talking to" wouldn't be what comes to mind about this, more
like a semi-private cell for such a major security violation as the
release of a classified transmission.
As for the US interfering in the internal affairs of an "Allied"
country (citizen Mike speaking here) I agree with you totally.
Personally I wish the EU would make valid statements concerning the
internal affairs of the US and take some of these congresscritters
down a few notches. When a congresscritter brags more about their
contacting within the beltway and less about their contacts within
their districts I get real concerned.
-Mike
Ed
Mike Jackson wrote:
>
> Rod,
> Respectfully, this message screams "TROLL" to me. I can send you an
> anon message complete with headers, footers (guess what anon
> forgot??), paragraph markers and remarkably correct AIG's (ask
> Starshadow or Chris Owen) that the Attorney General's office in
> concert with foreign law enforcement are going to raid the co$, but
> that doesn't mean it's true. My humble advice would be to see how
> this plays out and see if you were played like a puppet. Oh, and a
> "Stern talking to" wouldn't be what comes to mind about this, more
> like a semi-private cell for such a major security violation as the
> release of a classified transmission.
>
IMHO it is more likely real than troll for this reason: the
substance isn't something just any old Tom, Dick or Harry could
invent. There is a lot of stuff in there about the Spanish case, about
the Scn defense attorneys, and the high-class Spanish defense lawyer
having a stroke, and the supposed reasoning behind the State Dept's
position. There are not very many people in the world who could have
just spun all that up as a troll. There are even fewer who would go to
all the trouble of writing all that if it was just a troll that was
going to be shot down. What a waste of time!
I would presume the anonymous poster or his/her source had a
hardcopy document and either scanned it or retyped it into a file to
post. No big deal, if someone who had access to the document wanted to
leak it.
Ed
kEvin
>Instead of debating their authenticity, I think a more practical line of
>question is: Why is the U.S. Government doing the work of Scientology in
>interfering with a criminal case in Spain? Why are they shirking their
>obligations under treaty?
I'm not sure there is a treaty obligation. All US extradition treaties
have language safeguarding US citizens' rights. The right to a speedy trial
is guaranteed in the constitution and the delay between indictment and
prosecution would result in a dismissal on constitutional grounds if a
prosecutor attempted to bring a seven year old indictment to trial in
the US, so it's quite reasonable for the US to deny extradition based
on the ridiculous delay in bringing this case to trial. It's quite
obvious that the Spanish fucked this case up badly and I'd be more
bothered by the State dept. extraditing without review than I am by
their obvious concern with the delay and the merits of the case.
I know sanity is no longer the rule for critics and fanaticism (gak)
seems to be growing, but the State dept. has a fundamental obligation
to protect US citizens from fucked up foreign courts and it's pretty
obvious that the Spanish courts are fucked up and the delay in
prosecuting Heber is completely unreasonable.
In a likely futile attempt to head off complaints that Heber is bad and
Scientology[tm] is bad too so it must be right to extradite, let me point
out that the only defense of the rights of the innocent and wrongly
accused are the rights accorded to the obviously guilty as well. Long
delays in prosecution were used to hound innocent men in Europe and the
colonial US by placing them under a cloud and by keeping them bound up
with legal restrictions on indicted, untried suspects including such
favorites as imprisonment until trial or extremely high bail to keep
the accused's assets tied up where they wouldn't be used to annoy the
prosecutor and King. The provisions guaranteeing the right to a speedy
trial were put into the constitution as a specific response to exactly
the kind of situation Heber is in now.
kEvin
m...@primenet.com
Mephistopheles51
>The routing, the standard abbreviations, the
>names, the classification, everything.
...are all available from previously declassified FOIA documents from the USN
and USAF to anyone interested in Project Blue Book (for instance).
>I have no indication that they were
>intercepted or the encryption broken in any way.
This would have been unlikely, to say the least. The U.S. government does not
use the same artificially weak encryption that it forces U.S. citizens to use.
They have the best crypto that money can buy. And who else would have
intercepted it? What do they stand to gain from the release of this
information?
>They are certainly classified to some degree, the level being
>"Sensitive but Unclassified," abbreviated "SBU" in front of every
>paragraph, which is the lowest level.
I have never heard of this classification before, and I doubt its authenticity.
>I think if they ever found which of
>the thousands of people who had access to them
It is doubtful this many people had access to them, if they are authentic. A
dozen, maybe a few more.
>they would probably earn a stern talking to.
No, they would probably go to jail - hard time in Leavenworth. Anyone with
access to classified information is require to sign a standard non-disclosure
agreement which states they will safeguard such information, preventing its
disclosure to anyone without a valid clearance and a need to know. You do not
have a legitimate need to know.
>If they had been more highly
>classified, I expect I would have heard from somebody by now.
Maybe. It certainly would be embarrassing if the U.S. government were
discovered to be so blatant in its abuse of international treaty and law, and I
would not put it above the current regime. On the other hand, perhaps it is
being ignored because to not ignore it would be to authenticate it. In other
words, it may be standard operating procedure.
>Instead of debating their authenticity, I think a more practical line of
>question is: Why is the U.S. Government doing the work of Scientology in
>interfering with a criminal case in Spain?
I agree in principle. You did the right thing (so to speak) by posting them
here, precisely because you can question their authenticity. Now everyone who
reads this ng has a copy on their hard drive. However, a thousand thousand
people in agreement does not mean that they have not incorrectly reached the
wrong conclusion. No matter how many people agree that they are authentic, the
fact remains that such a position is dubious at best.
>An
>official I spoke to was most interested, in part because two friends of
>his spent over $300,000 on Scientology. S/he has been doing quite a bit of
>Internet research over the last few days, an eye-opening experience.
I wish my elected officials were this interested in what I believe to be a
public relations disaster for the United States waiting to happen, but they're
not. This is an election year, and they are busily whoring themselves for Bush
and Gore.
Dave Bird
writes:
>In a likely futile attempt to head off complaints that Heber is bad and
>Scientology[tm] is bad too so it must be right to extradite, let me point
>out that the only defense of the rights of the innocent and wrongly
>accused are the rights accorded to the obviously guilty as well.
There are some limitations on extradition. The requesting country
normally has to bring the citizen to court in his home country
and prove that there is, on the face of it, sufficient evidence
to show an arguable case worth pursuing.
In article<kjs8ps898nkhja5rv...@4ax.com>, Mike Jackson
<mjac...@spamless.ftc-i.net> writes:
>Rod,
> My experience with Diplomatic Messages are that they are always sent
>over encryted data circuits, and that they are always classfied. Now
>if someone wants you to believe that this is genuine, they messed up
>in two ways. 1) They would have to be on the transmitting end or
>receiving end with access to the clear-text message
Aw, come on: somebody with authorised access leaked the plain-text.
Don't be dense... of course they didn't tap the line :-( because they
wouldn't be able to break the crypto.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
In article<vca9psoljpv74s52s...@4ax.com>, Mike Jackson
<mjac...@spamless.ftc-i.net> writes:
>
>Rod,
> Respectfully, this message screams "TROLL" to me. I can send you an
>anon message complete with headers, footers (guess what anon
>forgot??), paragraph markers and remarkably correct AIG's (ask
>Starshadow or Chris Owen) that the Attorney General's office in
>concert with foreign law enforcement are going to raid the co$, but
>that doesn't mean it's true.
But it didn't say that. It went over then ins and outs of
a co-operation request in the case against Heber Jentsch;
including their view that the case was fairly laughable
and would not succeed.
In article<3994ACF7...@aol.com>, Ed <met...@aol.com> writes:
> IMHO it is more likely real than troll for this reason: the
>substance isn't something just any old Tom, Dick or Harry could
>invent. There is a lot of stuff in there about the Spanish case, about
>the Scn defense attorneys, and the high-class Spanish defense lawyer
>having a stroke, and the supposed reasoning behind the State Dept's
>position. There are not very many people in the world who could have
>just spun all that up as a troll. There are even fewer who would go to
>all the trouble of writing all that if it was just a troll that was
>going to be shot down. What a waste of time!
>
> I would presume the anonymous poster or his/her source had a
>hardcopy document and either scanned it or retyped it into a file to
>post. No big deal, if someone who had access to the document wanted to
>leak it.
--
' ' ' .:::. ' :: ' ' 'what do Scientologists say when ' http://www.
' (o\ /o) .::. ' you ask why their money-grubbing ' xemu.demon.
' \ " / XEMU ' killed a woman by starvation? ' co.uk '
' '-' :::: ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' '
' :v: \'''| ' BIGOT BIGOT BIGOT '
' ;;\:::/;;\/ / ' OO / / \ ? '
' ;;;;;;;;;BEER ' (~~) .00 @@-._ \ '
' WithAKick\/ ' ( ) ( =) (O ) ( ") (" )
' 'LikeAnHBomb ' ' ' ' ^^^^ ' ' ^^ ^^ ' ' ' ' ^^ ^^ ' ' "" ' ""
Rebecca Hartong
"Rod Keller" <rke...@netaxs.com> wrote in message
news:8n1tg2$o...@netaxs.com...
> Instead of debating their authenticity, I think a more practical line of
> question is: Why is the U.S. Government doing the work of Scientology in
> interfering with a criminal case in Spain?
You've drawn a conclusion (that the US government is interfering with a
criminal case in Spain) based upon a presumption that the message is
authentic, Rod. If the message is not authentic, then your conclusion may be
incorrect. That's why debating the authenticity of the message is practical
and--in fact--necessary.
My spouse has fairly extensive experience with government messaging of
various sorts and I asked him to have a look at this and give his opinion.
Here's what he had to say:
-------
The format and style are similar to what one would find in a State
Department ACP 127 message. However, without the remaining FLs (Format
Lines), it is
difficult to further identify if this message is legitimate.
I note the following discrepancies from normal DOS (Department of State)
telecommunications
protocols:
1. Messages sent through the DOS telecommunications system have a series of
formatted routing information heading and trailing what appears to be the
FL 12 of the message. This missing information identifies
orginator, recipients, classification, orgination date and time, and other
network routing information. These are necessary to fully evaluate the
authenticity of the message.
2. Sectioning of ACP127 messages is automatically accomplished by the
messages switches and is based on the total character count of the messages.
This character count includes all FLs in the message. Again, without the
missing FLs, it is not possible to determine if the message sectioning was
in fact actually done by the systems message switches.
3. The fact that "Section 01 of 02" has "2ND C O R R E C T E D C O P Y",
while "Section 02 of 02" has "C O R R E C T E D C O P Y" indicates that data
was lost during the sectioning process. The missing "2ND" is extremely
unlikely given the performance requirements of the DOS telecomminications
system. In additon the spelling of "CALSSIFICATION" in the second section
does not match the spelling "CLASSIFICATION" in the first section. Since
this information is automatically generated by the switching system, it
suggests that the message data is not a "copy" of the orginal message, but a
transcription at best.
3. The transmission of a "Corrected Copy" would involve the use of specific
communications codes within the missing FLs. Without the missing FLs, it is
not possible to determine if the FL12 shown was in fact a retransmission of
a valid message.
4. Although the use of "Sensitive but Unclassified" is a typical caveat
used in State Department messages, the position of these words in the
message is not in
accordance with the usual message format. Information handling instructions
(such as SENSITIVE BUT UNCLASSIFIED) are normally required to be placed
immediatly after the primary classification and BEFORE any passing
instructions ( FOR ....). Also SBU is NOT a classification,
5. The reference identifications do not correspond to the usual daytime
group markings associated with DOS or DOD messages. Specifically MADRID
003029 is the DOS standard format, so the associated cable references would
normally
be MADRID 994748 and MADRID 995061.
6. The "BTs" ( Break Transmission) are not in their normal position for a
properly formatted ACP 127 message. In an ACP 127 message the BTs are
required to be on separate lines in order to provide processing instructions
to automated message handling equipment. In addition, the absence of a
leading BT to match the associated trailing BT for each section is further
indication that this is not a complete message.
7. The presence of the word "ROMERO" at the bottom of the message indicates
that the ambassador himself released the message and has personally signed
it. However, such sensitive traffic that reflects the opinions
of the senior diplomat on station would usally be prefaced by the caveats of
"NOFORN" and/or "PERSONAL FOR" in the classification line.
roger gonnet
Ed <met...@aol.com> a écrit dans le message : 3994ACF7...@aol.com...
>
>
> Mike Jackson wrote:
> >
> > Rod,
> > Respectfully, this message screams "TROLL" to me. I can send you an
> > anon message complete with headers, footers (guess what anon
> > forgot??), paragraph markers and remarkably correct AIG's (ask
> > Starshadow or Chris Owen) that the Attorney General's office in
> > concert with foreign law enforcement are going to raid the co$, but
> > this plays out and see if you were played like a puppet. Oh, and a
> > "Stern talking to" wouldn't be what comes to mind about this, more
> > like a semi-private cell for such a major security violation as the
> > release of a classified transmission.
> >
> substance isn't something just any old Tom, Dick or Harry could
> invent. There is a lot of stuff in there about the Spanish case, about
> the Scn defense attorneys, and the high-class Spanish defense lawyer
> having a stroke, and the supposed reasoning behind the State Dept's
> position. There are not very many people in the world who could have
> just spun all that up as a troll. There are even fewer who would go to
> all the trouble of writing all that if it was just a troll that was
> going to be shot down. What a waste of time!
>
> I would presume the anonymous poster or his/her source had a
> hardcopy document and either scanned it or retyped it into a file to
> post. No big deal, if someone who had access to the document wanted to
> leak it.
Im' certain at 99,98 % it is a real one. And it's so evident that they could
themselves never had tried to attrack their own, camp; that nobody from
critic side could know when those persons were in spanish embassy, neither
have the names and dates etc of the story.
It's certainly inconsistent with what they do usually, or it would be of a
very differnt tone, scientology would be boasting religion as the main
factor accepted etc.
Not any chance that they would have done it with US embassy refuting the
"anti-religious" spanish thing.
roger
ptsc
<mjac...@spamless.ftc-i.net> wrote:
>Rod,
> Respectfully, this message screams "TROLL" to me. I can send you an
I would have thought that, too, before the Wall Street Journal leaked
the secret agreement with the IRS.
>anon message complete with headers, footers (guess what anon
>forgot??), paragraph markers and remarkably correct AIG's (ask
>Starshadow or Chris Owen) that the Attorney General's office in
>concert with foreign law enforcement are going to raid the co$, but
>that doesn't mean it's true. My humble advice would be to see how
>this plays out and see if you were played like a puppet. Oh, and a
>"Stern talking to" wouldn't be what comes to mind about this, more
>like a semi-private cell for such a major security violation as the
>release of a classified transmission.
I thought "SBU" stood for "Sensitive But UNCLASSIFIED."
As for leaking the IRS agreement, presumably that was a felony but
nobody was ever prosecuted for it. There are simply too many people
who could possibly have done it to go after any one of them.
ptsc
ptsc
(Mephistopheles51) wrote:
>>From: rke...@netaxs.com (Rod Keller)
>>They are certainly classified to some degree, the level being
>>"Sensitive but Unclassified," abbreviated "SBU" in front of every
>>paragraph, which is the lowest level.
>I have never heard of this classification before, and I doubt its authenticity.
Jesus Christ! It's not like it's that hard to do a web search on this
and find it on dozens of government and military web sites!
DRAFTED BY: IRM/CST/LD/OB:LDROBERTS -- 02/02/2000 202-647-4042
APPROVED BY: IRM/OSP:RSURPRISE
EUR/EX:SVANFAHTEN
WHA/EX:VSTRICKLER
NEA/SA/EX:TSCHUH
EAP/EX:JMCKENNAN
AF/EX:RBYRD
IRM/CST/L/OB:GMCCUMBER
IRM/CST/LD:CWISECARVER
IRM/CST:JCHADDIC
DS/IST/SIP:CHESS
IRM/MSO:JBOULANGER S/S-O:MKLECHESKI
DESIRED DISTRIBUTION:
IRM/CST
------------------2E354F 030855Z /21
R 021647Z FEB 00
FM SECSTATE WASHDC
TO ALL DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR POSTS
USOFFICE PRISTINA
SPECIAL EMBASSY PROGRAM
UNCLAS STATE 018029
INFORM CONSULS - FOR ALL TELEGRAM DRAFTING OFFICERS
E.O. 12958: N/A
TAGS: ACOA
SUBJECT: GUIDANCE FOR DRAFTING SBU TELEGRAM
REF: 95 STATE 232445
1. AS OF OCTOBER 1, 1995, THE ADMINISTRATIVE CONTROL
MARKING "LIMITED OFFICIAL USE" CEASED TO EXIST AND WAS
REPLACED WITH "SENSITIVE BUT UNCLASSIFIED" (SBU).
SENSITIVE BUT UNCLASSIFIED IS NOT A CLASSIFICATION LEVEL
FOR NATIONAL SECURITY INFORMATION, BUT IS USED WHEN IT'S
NECESSARY TO PROVIDE A DEGREE OF PROTECTION FROM
UNAUTHORIZED DISCLOSURE FOR UNCLASSIFIED INFORMATION AS
SET FORTH IN 12 FAM 540. THE PRIMARY REASONS FOR CREATING
SBU WERE TO KEEP CLASSIFIED MATERIAL TO A MINIMUM AND TO
BE ABLE TO PASS-ON RELEVANT, BUT SENSITIVE INFORMATION TO
INDIVIDUALS (INCLUDING FSNS) ON A NEED TO KNOW BASES. THE
FOLLOWING GUIDANCE IS PROVIDED TO ENSURE ALL TELEGRAM
DRAFTERS IN THE FIELD ARE AWARE OF THE PROPER DRAFTING
INSTRUCTIONS.
A. STANDARD SBU INFORMATION IS RESTRICTED TO THOSE WITH A
NEED TO KNOW, INCLUDING APPROPRIATE FOREIGN SERVICE
NATIONAL (FSN) STAFF, AND SHOULD BE SENT AS UNCLASSIFIED
WITH THE DISTRIBUTION CAPTION SENSITIVE IMMEDIATELY
FOLLOWING ANY CAPTION (IF APPLICABLE). THESE TELEGRAMS
WILL BE ASSIGNED UNCLASSIFIED ROUTING INDICATORS AND
TRANSMITTED VIA ENCRYPTED CLASSIFIED AND UNCLASSIFIED
CIRCUITS. THE FOLLOWING IS AN EXAMPLE OF THE HEADER OF AN
SBU TELEGRAM:
"UNCLASSIFIED"
PROG 00/00/00
JDOE
JDOEJR
NONE
POL
AMEMBASSY BERLIN
SECSTATE WASHDC
INFO AMEMBASSY PARIS
SENSITIVE
E.O. 12958: N/A
TAGS: PREL
SUBJECT: SAMPLE
B. SBU INFORMATION THAT REQUIRES A HIGHER LEVEL OF
PROTECTION, SUCH AS INFORMATION THAT SHOULD NOT BE
DISSEMINATED TO LOCALLY ENGAGED STAFF MUST HAVE THE
CAPTION NOFORN JUST BELOW THE SENSITIVE CAPTION WITH A
BLANK LINE SEPARATING THE NOFORN AND SENSITIVE. THE
DEPARTMENT'S TELECOMMUNICATIONS EQUIPMENT WILL KEY ON THE
NOFORN CAPTION AND ROUTE THESE TELEGRAMS TRANSIT THROUGH
CLASSIFIED ROUTING INDICATORS TO ENSURE ONLY CLEARED
AMERICANS HANDLE THEM. POSTS THAT HAVE UNCLASSIFIED
ROUTING INDICATORS ONLY WILL NOT RECEIVE THESE TELEGRAMS,
IF PROPERLY CAPTIONED. POSTS THAT USE TERP V, C/ACT,
D/ACT AND SEP COMMUNICATIONS EQUIPMENT MUST USE UNCLAS E F
T 0 RPT UNCLAS E F T 0 TO PREPARE SBU NOFORN CAPTIONED
TELEGRAMS. UNCLAS EFTO TELEGRAMS WILL ENSURE THAT THESE
TYPES OF CABLES ARE ASSIGNED CLASSIFIED ROUTING INDICATORS
AND ARE DIRECTED ONLY TO APPROPRIATELY CLEARED
COMMUNICATIONS FACILITIES CONTAINED IN THE 12 FAM 540.
THE FOLLOWING IS AN EXAMPLE OF THE HEADER OF AN SBU NOFORN
TELEGRAM:
UNCLAS E F T 0
PROG 00/00/00
JDOE
JDOEJR
NONE
IPC
AMEMBASSY BERLIN
SECSTATE WASHDC
INFO AMEMBASSY PARIS
SENSITIVE
NOFORN
DEPARTMENT FOR IRM/CST/LD/OB
E.O. 12958: N/A
TAGS: ACOA
SUBJECT: SAMPLE
2. POSTS' INTERNAL HANDLING AND DISTRIBUTION OF SBU
TELEGRAMS IS DICTATED BY EACH POSTS' INDIVIDUAL NEEDS
WHICH ARE UNIQUE TO EACH LOCATION WORLDWIDE. IT IS
THEREFORE ESSENTIAL FOR ALL FOREIGN SERVICE PERSONNEL TO
READ AND UNDERSTAND THE GUIDANCE ON USE AND HANDLING OF
SBU INFORMATION CONTAINED IN THE 12 FAM 450.
3. IN ADDITION, AS WITH ALL TELEGRAMS HIGHER THAN
UNCLASSIFIED, EACH PARAGRAPH MUST BEAR THE APPROPRIATE
MARKINGS, SUCH AS (U), (SBU), OR (SBU/NF). THIS WILL
ENSURE THESE TELEGRAMS RECEIVE THE SPECIAL RESTRICTIVE
HANDLING DESIRED.
4. THE FOLLOWING POSTS HAVE SEPARATE CLASSIFIED
AND UNCLASSIFIED ROUTING INDICATORS (OR NO CLASSIFIED
ROUTING INDICATOR AT ALL): ADANA, USOFFICE AIDPAY,
AMSTERDAM, APIA, AUCKLAND, BARCELONA, BELFAST, CALCUTTA,
CALGARY, CHENGDU, CIUDAD JUAREZ, CURACAO, DUBAI, DURBAN,
DUSSELDORF, EDINBURGH, USOFFICE ELSO ANTWERP, USOFFICE
FADPAC WASHDC, FLORENCE, FREETOWN, USOFFICE FSC BANGKOK,
USOFFICE FSC CHARLESTON, FUKUKOA, GRENADA, GUADALAJARA,
HALIFAX, HAMBURG, HAMILTON, HERMOSILLO, HO CHI MINH,
RECEPTION CENTER USIA HONOLULU, JOHANNESBURG, KOLONIA,
KOROR, KRAKOW, LAHORE, LEIPZIG, MAJURO, MARSEILLE, MASERU,
MATAMOROS, MERIDA, RECEPTION CENTER USIA MIAMI, MONTERREY,
NAGOYA, NAPLES, RECEPTION CENTER USIA NEW ORLEANS,
RECEPTION CENTER USIA NEW YORK, NUEVO LARDEO, PERTH, PONTA
DEL GADA, PORT MORESBY, NVC PORTSMOUTH, PRAIA, QUEBEC,
USOFFICE RAMC DATA PARIS, USOFFICE RAMC TEXT PARIS,
RECIFE, USOFFICE RFC WASHDC, ST PETERSBURG, STRASBOURG,
SUVA, THESSALONIKI, TIJUANA, USIA VOA UDORN, ULAANBAATAR,
VANCOUVER, VLADIVOSTOK, USOFFICE WFC, AND YEKATERINBURG.
5. MINIMIZE CONSIDERED
TALBOTT
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2000/02/sbu.html
Other sites mentioning this classification:
http://csrc.nist.gov/secpubs/ncsc_oa.txt
http://www.radium.ncsc.mil/tpep/library/rainbow/N-C-1-87.txt
http://www.dss.mil/seclib/jcs.htm
http://chacs.nrl.navy.mil/publications/CHACS/Before1990/1985landwehr-ncsc.html
http://chacs.nrl.navy.mil/publications/CHACS/Before1990/1985landwehr-ncsc.ascii
http://www.usapa.army.mil/gils/fall97.html
http://dii-af.hanscom.af.mil/gccs-af/security.htm
--
ptsc
ptsc
>In article <8n1tg2$o...@netaxs.com>, Rod Keller <rke...@netaxs.com> wrote:
>>Instead of debating their authenticity, I think a more practical line of
>>question is: Why is the U.S. Government doing the work of Scientology in
>>interfering with a criminal case in Spain? Why are they shirking their
>>obligations under treaty?
>I'm not sure there is a treaty obligation. All US extradition treaties
>have language safeguarding US citizens' rights. The right to a speedy trial
>is guaranteed in the constitution and the delay between indictment and
>prosecution would result in a dismissal on constitutional grounds if a
>prosecutor attempted to bring a seven year old indictment to trial in
>the US, so it's quite reasonable for the US to deny extradition based
>on the ridiculous delay in bringing this case to trial. It's quite
>obvious that the Spanish fucked this case up badly and I'd be more
>bothered by the State dept. extraditing without review than I am by
>their obvious concern with the delay and the merits of the case.
Even in the US, you aren't allowed to delay a trial continually by
legal maneuvers and then claim you weren't granted a speedy trial. I
forget the term, but it's basically called complaining of a situation
you created yourself.
I also recall that Spain's judicial system is incredibly slow, and
that seven years is not that unusual.
ptsc
ptsc
<roger....@worldnet.fr> wrote:
>Im' certain at 99,98 % it is a real one. And it's so evident that they could
>themselves never had tried to attrack their own, camp; that nobody from
>critic side could know when those persons were in spanish embassy, neither
>have the names and dates etc of the story.
I'd like to see more proof first.
Someone should probably request it under FOIA. For that matter, if
someone does that they should also request anything related.
ptsc
AndroidCat www.xenu.net
news:fucaps4om6euufl14...@4ax.com...
> As for leaking the IRS agreement, presumably that was a felony but
> nobody was ever prosecuted for it. There are simply too many people
> who could possibly have done it to go after any one of them.
And perhaps a wish at some level in the IRS that the agreement was made
public?
It's one of those irregular verbs: I brief, you leak, he is in
contravention of the Official Secrets Act.
Ron of that ilk.
Free Test. Expensive Cult.
Rod Keller
: In article <8n1tg2$o...@netaxs.com>, Rod Keller <rke...@netaxs.com> wrote:
: >Instead of debating their authenticity, I think a more practical line of
: >question is: Why is the U.S. Government doing the work of Scientology in
: >interfering with a criminal case in Spain? Why are they shirking their
: >obligations under treaty?
:
: I'm not sure there is a treaty obligation. All US extradition treaties
: have language safeguarding US citizens' rights. The right to a speedy trial
: is guaranteed in the constitution and the delay between indictment and
: prosecution would result in a dismissal on constitutional grounds if a
: prosecutor attempted to bring a seven year old indictment to trial in
: the US, so it's quite reasonable for the US to deny extradition based
: on the ridiculous delay in bringing this case to trial. It's quite
: obvious that the Spanish fucked this case up badly and I'd be more
: bothered by the State dept. extraditing without review than I am by
: their obvious concern with the delay and the merits of the case.
: I know sanity is no longer the rule for critics and fanaticism (gak)
: seems to be growing, but the State dept. has a fundamental obligation
: to protect US citizens from fucked up foreign courts and it's pretty
: obvious that the Spanish courts are fucked up and the delay in
: prosecuting Heber is completely unreasonable.
: In a likely futile attempt to head off complaints that Heber is bad and
: Scientology[tm] is bad too so it must be right to extradite, let me point
: out that the only defense of the rights of the innocent and wrongly
: delays in prosecution were used to hound innocent men in Europe and the
: colonial US by placing them under a cloud and by keeping them bound up
: with legal restrictions on indicted, untried suspects including such
: favorites as imprisonment until trial or extremely high bail to keep
: the accused's assets tied up where they wouldn't be used to annoy the
: trial were put into the constitution as a specific response to exactly
: the kind of situation Heber is in now.
I don't agree with your interpretation of the treaty. I have a copy and
will put it on parishioner.org soon. It's pretty clear-cut in this case.
They have to serve the papers. In the document, they say for the integrity
of the U.S. Law Enforcement process, they have to serve the papers.
Mephistopheles51
>Jesus Christ! It's not like it's that hard to do a web search on this
>and find it on dozens of government and military web sites!
Hmm. It appears I was mistaken. I've never heard of it before.
David Lesher
>They are certainly classified to some degree, the level being
>"Sensitive but Unclassified," abbreviated "SBU" in front of every
>paragraph, which is the lowest level.
NO! SBU is *not* classified.
The Congress set the definition/classifications, and they are:
Unclassified
Confidential
Secret
Top Secret
There is, by the way, contrary to folklore, no higher rating. There
ARE restricted distributions, and programs. For example, SCI -
Special Compartmentalized Information, & SAP - Special Access Program.
SCI needs special handling even on paper [You need a SCIFacility to
store it...]. SAP tended to be classified with political overtones.
[say the Indian nuke test; where pol reactions are discussed.]
BUT, SCI != Top Secret. Some SCI's (S).
There are also codewords for projects. One well-known is "Tango-Keyhole".
Keyhole refers National Technical Means such as the KH-11 "Big Bird"
satellites; Tango was SR-71/U2 data.
Note that while Congress sets U/C/S/TS; agencies can & do create things
like LOU & SBU. One of many problems on the Wen Ho Lee case is the material
in question appears to NOT have been classified; it was tagged with some
DoE category (PARD??), and the law covers only classified.
Enough on this. I don't know the cable is authentic or not. But if forged,
it was well done.
I suggest you ask your favorite Hillcritter; [s]he can get a copy of the cable
by number. Ask for a comparison.
Dave Bird
Rebecca Hartong <praet...@cox.rr.com> writes:
>
>"Rod Keller" <rke...@netaxs.com> wrote in message
>news:8n1tg2$o...@netaxs.com...
>> Instead of debating their authenticity, I think a more practical line of
>> question is: Why is the U.S. Government doing the work of Scientology in
>> interfering with a criminal case in Spain?
>
>You've drawn a conclusion (that the US government is interfering with a
>criminal case in Spain) based upon a presumption that the message is
>authentic, Rod.
I don't think it is inappropriate the foreign and justice, or interior,
ministries would be involved in a controversial extradition.
>1. Messages sent through the DOS telecommunications system have a series of
>formatted routing information heading and trailing what appears to be the
>FL 12 of the message. This missing information identifies
>orginator, recipients, classification, orgination date and time, and other
>network routing information. These are necessary to fully evaluate the
>authenticity of the message.
Yes, but they might have been removed to avoid identifying the leaker,
or simply because it was transcribed and retyped by a lazy person.
>6. The "BTs" ( Break Transmission) are not in their normal position
Perhaps they have been audited out on OT3 :-> ?
|~/ |~/
~~|;'^';-._.-;'^';-._.-;'^';-._.-;'^';-._.-;||';-._.-;'^';||_.-;'^'0-|~~
P | Woof Woof, Glug Glug ||____________|| 0 | P
O | Who Drowned the Judge's Dog? | . . . . . . . '----. 0 | O
O | answers on *---|_______________ @__o0 | O
L |<a href="news:alt.religion.scientology"></a>_____________|/_______| L
www.xemu.demon.co.uk 2B0D 5195 337B A3E6 DDAC BD38 7F2F FD8E 7391 F44F
Rod Keller
now available at http://parishioner.org/mlatspain.html
Regardless of the laws of the U.S., the government must comply with the
request for service of documents.
Keith Henson
snip
> I don't agree with your interpretation of the treaty. I have a copy and
> will put it on parishioner.org soon. It's pretty clear-cut in this case.
> They have to serve the papers. In the document, they say for the integrity
> of the U.S. Law Enforcement process, they have to serve the papers.
Of course, 1) they would have to find Heber and 2) even if they did, all
it would mean is that Heber would ignor the papers.
Keith Henson
Tom Klemesrud
Mike Jackson wrote:
>
> Rod,
> Respectfully, this message screams "TROLL" to me. I can send you an
> anon message complete with headers, footers (guess what anon
> forgot??), paragraph markers and remarkably correct AIG's (ask
> Starshadow or Chris Owen) that the Attorney General's office in
> concert with foreign law enforcement are going to raid the co$, but
> that doesn't mean it's true. My humble advice would be to see how
> this plays out and see if you were played like a puppet. Oh, and a
> "Stern talking to" wouldn't be what comes to mind about this, more
> like a semi-private cell for such a major security violation as the
> release of a classified transmission.
...
Mr. Jackson, this government would have a hard time surviving if it
weren't for patriots of conscience such as Daniel Ellsberg--with the
Pentagon Papers, Deep Throat--the Watergate Scandal, and whoever leaked
the secret illegal backroom deal the IRS made secretly the criminal cult
(with Ms. Yingling's assistance), to the Wall Street Journal. All these
people are considered american heroes for ratting-out a corrupt
government you proudly speak of helping to secure that government's
communications. (Have you ever had a fit of conscience in your 20
years?)
Fortunately, other government employees have a sense of duty to the
People whose interests are sold out by those corrupt in their
government.
As a member of the forth estate, I find the communique interesting, and
worthy of further probing.
I generally note that within the last decade, the only way Scientology
got close to making anything "go right" was with the help of Bill
Clinton and/or the Clinton/Gore administration flunkies and shysters
suing to establish government policy.
Tom Klemesrud SP6
KoX
mimus
mimus
I'm going to jail for reading this, aren't I?
>Other sites mentioning this classification:
>http://csrc.nist.gov/secpubs/ncsc_oa.txt
>http://www.radium.ncsc.mil/tpep/library/rainbow/N-C-1-87.txt
>http://www.dss.mil/seclib/jcs.htm
>http://chacs.nrl.navy.mil/publications/CHACS/Before1990/1985landwehr-ncsc.html
>http://chacs.nrl.navy.mil/publications/CHACS/Before1990/1985landwehr-ncsc.ascii
>http://www.usapa.army.mil/gils/fall97.html
>http://dii-af.hanscom.af.mil/gccs-af/security.htm
>
>--
>ptsc
--
Tommy
>
> ptsc <pt...@my-deja.com> posted:
>
> >On 12 Aug 2000 03:08:14 GMT, mephisto...@aol.comNOSPAM
> >(Mephistopheles51) wrote:
> >
> >>>From: rke...@netaxs.com (Rod Keller)
> >
> >>>They are certainly classified to some degree, the level being
> >>>"Sensitive but Unclassified," abbreviated "SBU" in front of every
> >>>paragraph, which is the lowest level.
> >
> >>I have never heard of this classification before, and I doubt its authenticity.
> >
> >Jesus Christ! It's not like it's that hard to do a web search on this
> >and find it on dozens of government and military web sites!
> >
> >
> >DRAFTED BY: IRM/CST/LD/OB:LDROBERTS -- 02/02/2000 202-647-4042
> >APPROVED BY: IRM/OSP:RSURPRISE
> >EUR/EX:SVANFAHTEN
> >WHA/EX:VSTRICKLER
> >NEA/SA/EX:TSCHUH
> >EAP/EX:JMCKENNAN
> >AF/EX:RBYRD
> >IRM/CST/L/OB:GMCCUMBER
> >IRM/CST/LD:CWISECARVER
> >IRM/CST:JCHADDIC
> >DS/IST/SIP:CHESS
> >IRM/MSO:JBOULANGER S/S-O:MKLECHESKI
> I'm going to jail for reading this, aren't I?
You're already IN jail.
Didn't you know this is a prison planet?
:-)
Tommy
--
From "All about Radiation", by a 'nuclear physicist'....
"One might well ask what I know about this subject. I was a member of
the first class in nuclear physics - we called it Atomic and Molecular
Phenomena, of which nuclear physics is just a small part - which was
taught at the George Washington University."
L. Ron Hubbard
He got an "F".
ptsc
<hkhe...@netcom3.netcom.com> wrote:
>Rod Keller <rke...@netaxs.com> wrote:
>snip
>Keith Henson
That is, of course, true, but then the onus of criminality would
remain on Heber, and if he were convicted in absentia he would still
be a convicted felon and fugitive from justice.
If this communique is true, the government is actively aiding the cult
and the criminal Heber Jentzsch, and legitimizing the cult's evasion
of justice.
ptsc
Rod Keller
: > will put it on parishioner.org soon. It's pretty clear-cut in this case.
: > They have to serve the papers. In the document, they say for the integrity
: > of the U.S. Law Enforcement process, they have to serve the papers.
:
: Of course, 1) they would have to find Heber and 2) even if they did, all
: it would mean is that Heber would ignor the papers.
I think U.S. Marshals can find him, and I doubt he can ignore a federal
subpoena.
AndroidCat www.xenu.net
news:39961c71...@news.zoomnet.net...
> "AndroidCat www.xenu.net" <androi...@hotmail.com> posted:
>
> >"ptsc" <pt...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> >news:fucaps4om6euufl14...@4ax.com...
> >
> >> As for leaking the IRS agreement, presumably that was a felony but
> >> nobody was ever prosecuted for it. There are simply too many people
> >> who could possibly have done it to go after any one of them.
> >
> >And perhaps a wish at some level in the IRS that the agreement was made
> >public?
> >
> >It's one of those irregular verbs: I brief, you leak, he is in
> >contravention of the Official Secrets Act.
>
> Yes, Minister.
:^)
Yes, Prime Minister. Those two series/books are the foundation for any hope
of understanding parliamentary democracy, such as it is. And they're a
hoot!
For Americans, I'd suggest the supplementary of Parliament of Whores by P.J.
O'Rourke.
And there's a good illustration in Y,PM of why you assign Inspector Plodder
when you don't really want the leak to be found. (As opposed to Inspector
Doppler, but that's another play -- and a damned fine one: Two actors in a
two-part, one room, five character murder mystery. Sleuth, I believe.)
Ron of that ilk.
Free Test. Run Away! Run Away!
Keith Henson
> Keith Henson (hkhe...@netcom3.netcom.com) wrote:
> : Rod Keller <rke...@netaxs.com> wrote:
> : > I don't agree with your interpretation of the treaty. I have a copy and
> : > will put it on parishioner.org soon. It's pretty clear-cut in this case.
> : > They have to serve the papers. In the document, they say for the integrity
> : > of the U.S. Law Enforcement process, they have to serve the papers.
> :
> : Of course, 1) they would have to find Heber and 2) even if they did, all
> : it would mean is that Heber would ignor the papers.
> I think U.S. Marshals can find him, and I doubt he can ignore a federal
> subpoena.
They never did find LRH. And it would be a Spanish subpoena wouldn't it?
Keith Henson
mimus
>mimus wrote:
>>
>> ptsc <pt...@my-deja.com> posted:
>>
>> >On 12 Aug 2000 03:08:14 GMT, mephisto...@aol.comNOSPAM
>> >(Mephistopheles51) wrote:
>> >
>> >>>From: rke...@netaxs.com (Rod Keller)
>> >
>> >>>They are certainly classified to some degree, the level being
>> >>>"Sensitive but Unclassified," abbreviated "SBU" in front of every
>> >>>paragraph, which is the lowest level.
>> >
>> >>I have never heard of this classification before, and I doubt its authenticity.
>> >
>> >Jesus Christ! It's not like it's that hard to do a web search on this
>> >and find it on dozens of government and military web sites!
>> >
>> >
>> >DRAFTED BY: IRM/CST/LD/OB:LDROBERTS -- 02/02/2000 202-647-4042
>> >APPROVED BY: IRM/OSP:RSURPRISE
>> >EUR/EX:SVANFAHTEN
>> >WHA/EX:VSTRICKLER
>> >NEA/SA/EX:TSCHUH
>> >EAP/EX:JMCKENNAN
>> >AF/EX:RBYRD
>> >IRM/CST/L/OB:GMCCUMBER
>> >IRM/CST/LD:CWISECARVER
>> >IRM/CST:JCHADDIC
>> >DS/IST/SIP:CHESS
>> >IRM/MSO:JBOULANGER S/S-O:MKLECHESKI
>>
>><snip>
>>
>> I'm going to jail for reading this, aren't I?
>
>You're already IN jail.
>
>Didn't you know this is a prison planet?
>:-)
>
> Tommy
You know, now that you mention that, it does explain a lot.
Presumably, hypnosis by TV, computer games and the Internet is to keep
us quiet.
>--
>
>From "All about Radiation", by a 'nuclear physicist'....
>
>"One might well ask what I know about this subject. I was a member of
>the first class in nuclear physics - we called it Atomic and Molecular
>Phenomena, of which nuclear physics is just a small part - which was
>taught at the George Washington University."
> L. Ron Hubbard
>
>
> He got an "F".
--
mimus
>"mimus" <tinmi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:39961c71...@news.zoomnet.net...
>> "AndroidCat www.xenu.net" <androi...@hotmail.com> posted:
>>
>> >"ptsc" <pt...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
>> >news:fucaps4om6euufl14...@4ax.com...
>> >
>> >> As for leaking the IRS agreement, presumably that was a felony but
>> >> nobody was ever prosecuted for it. There are simply too many people
>> >> who could possibly have done it to go after any one of them.
>> >
>> >And perhaps a wish at some level in the IRS that the agreement was made
>> >public?
>> >
>> >It's one of those irregular verbs: I brief, you leak, he is in
>> >contravention of the Official Secrets Act.
>>
>> Yes, Minister.
>
>:^)
>
>Yes, Prime Minister. Those two series/books are the foundation for any hope
>of understanding parliamentary democracy, such as it is. And they're a
>hoot!
>
>For Americans, I'd suggest the supplementary of Parliament of Whores by P.J.
>O'Rourke.
_Systemantics_ trumps all, even _One-Upmanship_ and _The Peter
Principle_.
Have you read _The Diaries of a Cabinet Minister_ (Volume 1 1964-1966)
by Richard Crossman? They're the real diaries of a real Minister,
voluminous, fascinating, frequently hilarious and _Yes, Minister_ and
_Yes, Prime Minister_ are in large part based on them--sometimes on
actual incidents. (There's at least one actual reference in the _M_
duo to those diaries--where Crossman was informed by his respectful
and competent Civil Service assistant that if he didn't want to mess
with what was in his "In" box all he had to do was move it to his
"Out" box and that would be that . . . .)
(I presume Vol. 2 was published, but haven't got it yet.)
Tommy
>
> Tommy <Tommy_Sp**ges...@Xs.net> posted:
>
> >mimus wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> >On 12 Aug 2000 03:08:14 GMT, mephisto...@aol.comNOSPAM
> >> >(Mephistopheles51) wrote:
> >> >
> >> >>>From: rke...@netaxs.com (Rod Keller)
> >> >
> >> >>>They are certainly classified to some degree, the level being
> >> >>>"Sensitive but Unclassified," abbreviated "SBU" in front of every
> >> >>>paragraph, which is the lowest level.
> >> >
> >> >>I have never heard of this classification before, and I doubt its authenticity.
> >> >
> >> >Jesus Christ! It's not like it's that hard to do a web search on this
> >> >and find it on dozens of government and military web sites!
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >DRAFTED BY: IRM/CST/LD/OB:LDROBERTS -- 02/02/2000 202-647-4042
> >> >APPROVED BY: IRM/OSP:RSURPRISE
> >> >EUR/EX:SVANFAHTEN
> >> >WHA/EX:VSTRICKLER
> >> >NEA/SA/EX:TSCHUH
> >> >EAP/EX:JMCKENNAN
> >> >AF/EX:RBYRD
> >> >IRM/CST/L/OB:GMCCUMBER
> >> >IRM/CST/LD:CWISECARVER
> >> >IRM/CST:JCHADDIC
> >> >DS/IST/SIP:CHESS
> >> >IRM/MSO:JBOULANGER S/S-O:MKLECHESKI
> >>
> >>
> >> I'm going to jail for reading this, aren't I?
> >
> >
> >Didn't you know this is a prison planet?
> >:-)
> >
> > Tommy
>
> You know, now that you mention that, it does explain a lot.
>
> Presumably, hypnosis by TV, computer games and the Internet is to keep
> us quiet.
Check out "They Live" - a minor classic starring (of all people) "Rowdy"
Roddy Piper.
He did such a good job I expected to start seeing him in other films. I
didn't.
Tommy
El Roto
<Tommy_Sp**ges...@Xs.net> wrote:
> mimus wrote:
snip
> > Presumably, hypnosis by TV, computer games and the
> > Internet is to keep us quiet.
> Check out "They Live" - a minor classic starring (of
> all people) "Rowdy" Roddy Piper.
snip
Hell, go buy a copy of "Deus Ex" and start playing. It'll
teach you about every Conspiracy Theory under the sun...and
keep you in front of your computer for days at a time.
Steve "They got me" G.
* Sent from AltaVista http://www.altavista.com Where you can also find related Web Pages, Images, Audios, Videos, News, and Shopping. Smart is Beautiful
Captain Nerd
Hash: SHA1
In article <3996E9...@Xs.net>, tommya, at, hotmail, dot, com wrote:
> mimus wrote:
> >
> > Tommy <Tommy_Sp**ges...@Xs.net> posted:
> >
> > >mimus wrote:
> > >>
> > >> ptsc <pt...@my-deja.com> posted:
> > >>
> > >> >On 12 Aug 2000 03:08:14 GMT, mephisto...@aol.comNOSPAM
> > >> >(Mephistopheles51) wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> >>>From: rke...@netaxs.com (Rod Keller)
> > >> >
> > >> >>>They are certainly classified to some degree, the level being
> > >> >>>"Sensitive but Unclassified," abbreviated "SBU" in front of every
> > >> >>>paragraph, which is the lowest level.
> > >> >
> > >> >>I have never heard of this classification before, and I doubt its
> > >> >>authenticity.
> > >> >
> > >> >Jesus Christ! It's not like it's that hard to do a web search on
> > >> >this and find it on dozens of government and military web sites!
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >DRAFTED BY: IRM/CST/LD/OB:LDROBERTS -- 02/02/2000 202-647-4042
> > >> >APPROVED BY: IRM/OSP:RSURPRISE
> > >> >EUR/EX:SVANFAHTEN
> > >> >WHA/EX:VSTRICKLER
> > >> >NEA/SA/EX:TSCHUH
> > >> >EAP/EX:JMCKENNAN
> > >> >AF/EX:RBYRD
> > >> >IRM/CST/L/OB:GMCCUMBER
> > >> >IRM/CST/LD:CWISECARVER
> > >> >IRM/CST:JCHADDIC
> > >> >DS/IST/SIP:CHESS
> > >> >IRM/MSO:JBOULANGER S/S-O:MKLECHESKI
> > >>
> > >><snip>
> > >>
> > >> I'm going to jail for reading this, aren't I?
> > >
> > >You're already IN jail.
> > >
> > >Didn't you know this is a prison planet?
> > >:-)
> > >
> > > Tommy
> >
> > You know, now that you mention that, it does explain a lot.
> >
> > Presumably, hypnosis by TV, computer games and the Internet is to keep
> > us quiet.
>
>
> Check out "They Live" - a minor classic starring (of all people) "Rowdy"
> Roddy Piper.
> He did such a good job I expected to start seeing him in other films. I
> didn't.
Heh.
"I'm here to kick ass and chew bubblegum, and I'm all out of bubblegum."
Cap.
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--
Operation: Nerdwatch - http://www.nerdwatch.com
Captain Nerd can be reached at: cpt...@nerdwatch.com
"By the taping of my glasses, something geeky this way passes."
Mephistopheles51
>All these
>people are considered american heroes for ratting-out a corrupt
>government you proudly speak of helping to secure that government's
>communications. (Have you ever had a fit of conscience in your 20
>years?)
That last is inappropriate. You've heard from more than a few people on this
ng who've had experience with government communiques, and they've expressed
their doubts as to the cable's authenticity. From your comments, you've
obviously decided that their comments are unworthy of your consideration, and
that their patriotism is in question.
How you arrived at this conclusion baffles me, but you have arrived at it
erroneously.
You have conveniently ignored the fact that on the other end of the U.S.
intelligence effort are many American lives, which daily depend on the efforts
of thousands of people to feed the United States government the very best
intelligence available.
In short, your statement reflects a total lack of understanding of your
vulnerability as an American citizen, both at home and abroad.
Not every leak of official government documents will lead to another Watergate.
I think it would behoove the interested parties to scrutinize the cable most
carefully, and do whatever they can to verify that its contents are authentic.
I am merely stating the fact that this cable contains several out of the
ordinary features, and while I have no problem believing the Clinton White
House capable of outright support of the cult known as the "church" of
$cientology, I highly suggest you use the pool of available talent the internet
brings into your home and allow it to prevent you from making a fool out of
yourself by making dubious claims.
That does not make me a traitor to the American people. And your suggestion
that anyone in any way connected to the U.S. intelligence establishment should,
in some way, feel pangs of conscience for their complicity in "crimes" is
baseless.
Tom Klemesrud
Mephistopheles51 wrote:
>
> >From: Tom Klemesrud tom...@netins.net
>
> >All these
> >people are considered american heroes for ratting-out a corrupt
> >government you proudly speak of helping to secure that government's
> >communications. (Have you ever had a fit of conscience in your 20
> >years?)
>
> That last is inappropriate. You've heard from more than a few people on this
> ng who've had experience with government communiques, and they've expressed
> their doubts as to the cable's authenticity. From your comments, you've
> obviously decided that their comments are unworthy of your consideration, and
> that their patriotism is in question.
No, not that their patriotism is in question: Tonight Gore Vidal called
the US the largest rogue state in the world. I say that those who could
expose this government's rogue activities to the public, should do so as
an act of patriotism.
>
> How you arrived at this conclusion baffles me, but you have arrived at it
> erroneously.
>
> You have conveniently ignored the fact that on the other end of the U.S.
> intelligence effort are many American lives, which daily depend on the efforts
> of thousands of people to feed the United States government the very best
> intelligence available.
I dispute thousands of foreign spies seeking to undermine the law of our
foreign allies in the interest on internal domestic terrorists, is not
in the People's interest.
>
> In short, your statement reflects a total lack of understanding of your
> vulnerability as an American citizen, both at home and abroad.
I feel most vulnerable to the threats posed to me by my our corrupt
government--the USA.
> Not every leak of official government documents will lead to another Watergate.
So true. In some cases our government may indeed be acting for the
common good of our allies and our own people; not conspiring to default
on a treaty agreement for the benefit a criminal cult.
> I think it would behoove the interested parties to scrutinize the cable most
> carefully, and do whatever they can to verify that its contents are authentic.
> I am merely stating the fact that this cable contains several out of the
> ordinary features, and while I have no problem believing the Clinton White
> House capable of outright support of the cult known as the "church" of
> $cientology, I highly suggest you use the pool of available talent the internet
> brings into your home and allow it to prevent you from making a fool out of
> yourself by making dubious claims.
As a government worker, or government supporter, you may know less than
you should know about this cult. What makes you believe the above has
not already been done?
> That does not make me a traitor to the American people. And your suggestion
> that anyone in any way connected to the U.S. intelligence establishment should,
> in some way, feel pangs of conscience for their complicity in "crimes" is
> baseless.
I meant that U.S. Intelligence personnel should follow every *lawful*
order conscientiously; remembering the meaning of the Nuremberg trial.
> Don't believe the hype*
I don't: I'm SP6 and KoX.
> *and it's all hype
What is?
Tom Klemesrud SP6
KoX
Tom Klemesrud
Keith Henson wrote:
>
> Rod Keller <rke...@netaxs.com> wrote:
> > Keith Henson (hkhe...@netcom3.netcom.com) wrote:
> > : Rod Keller <rke...@netaxs.com> wrote:
> > : > I don't agree with your interpretation of the treaty. I have a copy and
> > : > will put it on parishioner.org soon. It's pretty clear-cut in this case.
> > : > They have to serve the papers. In the document, they say for the integrity
> > : > of the U.S. Law Enforcement process, they have to serve the papers.
> > :
> > : Of course, 1) they would have to find Heber and 2) even if they did, all
> > : it would mean is that Heber would ignor the papers.
>
> > I think U.S. Marshals can find him, and I doubt he can ignore a federal
> > subpoena.
>
> They never did find LRH. And it would be a Spanish subpoena wouldn't it?
They were moving in on him though--tracing horse racing paraphrenelia
etc for the track at Creston, CA. Given another month, I think they
would have found him. But, conveniently, Phatard died.
Tom Klemesrud SP6
KoX
Mike Jackson
I had to simmer down a bit before I posted. Yes there are things in
the government that I don't approve of, and there are avenues
available to remedy that. If your vision of a patriot is someone who
spills his guts to the press, well then move over Thomas Jefferson
because you're about to take a backseat to me. However _my_
conscience dictates that I will not do that.
However, as much as I disagree with what you said, I and the thousands
of other people in uniform have sworn to defend _with our lives_ your
right to say that. Would you do the same?
The issue here was the authenticity of the message. I lent my
expertise to say there was something just not right about it. Is
there a problem with that? Or should I just sit back and watch this
go on and chuckle with a "I knew that" if things don't go quite right.
This is a group (what do you call a herd of cats?) effort and I was
lending my bit of knowledge. If you don't want that then I can just
stay in permanent lurker status.
-Mike
Tom Klemesrud <tom...@netins.net> wrote:
>
>
>Mike Jackson wrote:
>>
>> Rod,
>> Respectfully, this message screams "TROLL" to me. I can send you an
>> anon message complete with headers, footers (guess what anon
>> forgot??), paragraph markers and remarkably correct AIG's (ask
>> Starshadow or Chris Owen) that the Attorney General's office in
>> concert with foreign law enforcement are going to raid the co$, but
>> that doesn't mean it's true. My humble advice would be to see how
>> this plays out and see if you were played like a puppet. Oh, and a
>> "Stern talking to" wouldn't be what comes to mind about this, more
>> like a semi-private cell for such a major security violation as the
>> release of a classified transmission.
>...
>
>Mr. Jackson, this government would have a hard time surviving if it
>weren't for patriots of conscience such as Daniel Ellsberg--with the
>Pentagon Papers, Deep Throat--the Watergate Scandal, and whoever leaked
>the secret illegal backroom deal the IRS made secretly the criminal cult
>(with Ms. Yingling's assistance), to the Wall Street Journal. All these
>people are considered american heroes for ratting-out a corrupt
>government you proudly speak of helping to secure that government's
>communications. (Have you ever had a fit of conscience in your 20
>years?)
>
Tom Klemesrud
Mephistopheles51 wrote:
> No, they would probably go to jail - hard time in Leavenworth. Anyone with
> access to classified information is require to sign a standard non-disclosure
> agreement which states they will safeguard such information, preventing its
> disclosure to anyone without a valid clearance and a need to know. You do not
> have a legitimate need to know.
Again, Danield Ellsberg didn't do hard time--though he was subjected to
Scientology-like dirty tricks (technics invented by the US government);
Deep Throat was--if I'm right--promoted by Nixon, then served in a high
office for President Reagan. There has been no known prosecution of the
leaker of the IRS secret, illegal agreement with the cult, to the Wall
Street Journal.
In short, stop the threats: Start your frigin' raids . . . but we're
used to those.
Tom Klemesrud SP6
KoX
Tom Klemesrud
Mike Jackson wrote:
>
> I had to simmer down a bit before I posted. Yes there are things in
> the government that I don't approve of, and there are avenues
> available to remedy that. If your vision of a patriot is someone who
> spills his guts to the press, well then move over Thomas Jefferson
> because you're about to take a backseat to me. However _my_
> conscience dictates that I will not do that.
>
> However, as much as I disagree with what you said, I and the thousands
> of other people in uniform have sworn to defend _with our lives_ your
> right to say that. Would you do the same?
I did do that in defending Dennis Erlich's right to use the internet.
Check it out. Have you been in such a dirty, intense war as I have? A
professor at George Washington University called it the "first
information war."
Simmer down soldier. You know you haven't been insulted personally.
>
> The issue here was the authenticity of the message. I lent my
> expertise to say there was something just not right about it. Is
> there a problem with that? Or should I just sit back and watch this
> go on and chuckle with a "I knew that" if things don't go quite right.
Your input is very welcome.
Tom Klemesrud SP6
KoX
> This is a group (what do you call a herd of cats?)
There are misinformation and disinformation specialists all over the
place here. It's possible some of those are also US government agents
ordered to do so by a corrupt government in support of a criminal cult.
BTW, why did the National Security Advisor, Sandy Berger, give John
Travolta a top-level security briefing on our intel on Germany?
Tom Klemesrud SP6
KoX
Mike Jackson
Tom,
I've been on this ng since '95. The first thought I had was "What
an imagination". Then I realized how real it was, quite a wake-up
call. And the first book that I believe published about this was
"Sex, Laws, and Cyberspace", which I do have a copy. I'm not always
in a position to help in the demonstrations so I help where I can.
It's quite easy to drop a 3x5" card with selected legal passages into
books at the many bookstores I've visited.
And to call me "soldier", well...... Airman or sergeant will do better
<g>
Please be careful about questioning a GI's patriotism. As I said I
had to simmer down a bit. You inferred about my patriotism which is
what I took exception to. The flag of the country you may have
problems with (and yes I agree you have valid problem with) is the
same flag I draped over the coffins of several of my family member.
Please don't do that again. A GI will defend your rights (whatever
country your in) to whatever ability they can.
I respect those here who have put themselves in the "line of fire".
Due to my ever-changing assignments (I'm going where???) I do what I
can when I'm able. I haven't been called to do the ultimate (you,
keith, stacey, bob, mark, etc). However I do have idea's that may in
the end bring about the untimely end of co$. These things I'm working
on in the dark and with the same security of the SIOP facility that I
used to work in. Basically, they'll never know what hit them or where
it came from.
-Mike
Tom Klemesrud
Mephistopheles51 wrote:
>
> >From: Tom Klemesrud tom...@netins.net
>
> >No, not that their patriotism is in question:
>
> Well, that's good to hear.
>
> >Tonight Gore Vidal called
> >the US the largest rogue state in the world. I say that those who could
> >expose this government's rogue activities to the public, should do so as
> >an act of patriotism.
>
> Indeed? I think you overestimate the breadth of government corruption. It
> would simply involve too many people. The truth would come out. You also
> underestimate the courage and conviction of your fellow citizens, I think.
>
> >I dispute thousands of foreign spies seeking to undermine the law of our
> >foreign allies in the interest on internal domestic terrorists, is not
> >in the People's interest.
>
> "foreign spies?" Are you referring to $cientology's agents, the U.S.
> government's, or one of our foreign allies'?
the "thousands" you referred to in the paragraph you deleted
above--those working abroad who needs the cloak of privacy you
mentioned. I see no reason to send secret messages at all. Foreign
policy should be such that we say what we mean, and mean what we say.
DOS communiqués should be printed in newspapers, and released on the
web. If we had this openness, perhaps we wouldn't be so hated all over
the world?
> >I feel most vulnerable to the threats posed to me by my our corrupt
> >government--the USA.
>
> It's true that your government (and mine) is now doing things we condemn other
> countries for. This does not make us worse than other countries, nor does a
> desire to confront it make us better than them. Every country on earth has its
> revolutionaries.
>
> The difference between them (true rogue states) and us is that, for the most
> part, the secret police don't bang on your door at three in the morning and
> drag you away to a little cell with water dripping from a bare lightbulb in the
> ceiling to "work you over." The law is usually, for I cannot say always, the
> supreme rule of the land, whether federal, state, or local.
But that happened to me, as I sought to protect Erlich's right to post
on the internet. It was the LAPD.
> >As a government worker, or government supporter, you may know less than
> >you should know about this cult. What makes you believe the above has
> >not already been done?
>
> I have no wish to debate it with you. Genuine or fake, I put in my two cents.
> Take it for what it's worth. I'm willing to entertain possible proof, but
> there's nothing to be gained in arguing about its authenticity with so few
> facts.
>
> >I meant that U.S. Intelligence personnel should follow every *lawful*
> >order conscientiously; remembering the meaning of the Nuremberg trial.
>
> Really? Let me tell you my opinion...
>
> If you knew the true nature of the beast you revile you would weep. It's WORSE
> than you imagine. The "rule of law" of which you speak doesn't exist. The
> rules are broken daily, because it is the ONLY WAY TO MAKE IT ALL WORK.
>
> You heard right.
>
> It's a web of deceit and lies all the way up and NO ONE IS INNOCENT, Tom, but
> some people are more innocent than others.
>
> Why don't people blow the whistle? There is no whistle to blow. What would
> you report? The incompetence and rate inflation that mysteriously converts a
> military unit's status from C-2 to C-1? That's a "mistake." For example:
>
> First lieutenants the world over don't know how to fill out a USR, and no one
> has ever trained them how to do it. The CO is too busy with his work load. So
> a "1" becomes a "0," or a few soldiers that have long since left the unit are
> included on the ready roster because they've never been taken off the alpha
> roster. It will be taken care of before the next IG inspection, the 1LT says.
>
> The unit is supposed to have a field or technical manual to explain it, but it
> doesn't because it was borrowed by some staff sergeant two years ago who
> subsequently left the military. Why did he take it with him? He didn't. He
> left it in his room, and the next occupant threw it away. Oh, he told the
> First Sergeant that it would be there, but you know responsibility... who, in
> that position, can possibly remember all the important things they have to keep
> track of, let alone the unimportant and trivial details?
>
> So the first lieutenant fills out a form, to the best of his ability, and sends
> it up to the captain. In order to get his approval, the captain has to agree
> that it honestly reflects the status of his unit.
>
> Well, maybe the captain doesn't think his unit really rates a "U" in chem/bio
> training. Maybe he thinks it rates a "P." So he changes it, and forwards it
> to his commander, making a note to schedule more chem/bio training in the
> coming quarter.
>
> The LTC takes a look at his units (four companies, see above) and decides to
> average the scores to reflect the readiness of his unit. That's how he arrives
> at his decision on how to direct his troops to train effectively. While he
> works, he realizes that two of four companies reported a "U" for chem/bio
> readiness, but makes a note to require additional training in the coming
> quarter. Then he passes it on to his boss after reporting his chem/bio status
> as a solid "P."
>
> The colonel receives the report and does the same thing, except he's not
> playing with a few hundred lives. He's playing with a thousand.
>
> And so on, and so on...
>
> And it's motivated by a fear of reprisal in the "zero tolerance" atmosphere of
> the military. Less than stellar performance is simply not reported. Less than
> stellar performance does not earn an officer a good OER. Less than stellar
> performance holds up one's career, and why should one be punished for the
> troops' incompetence, the soldiers' laziness, the lack of comprehension of even
> the simplest tasks?
>
> If you have something to say about that, you're "fucked up, not a team player,
> have a fucking problem." People that are less competent than you are promoted
> over you, because they don't "complain." They're not "disgruntled."
>
> Then they don't understand how you can want to leave the womb of safety.
>
> Who do you blame? There's no guilty party, unless you come to the conclusion
> that everyone is guilty, even you.
It is this bureaucratic incompetence of the Scientologists that we rely
on to beat scientology. But the White House--rather than solving the
problems you elaborate on, is busy rescuing a criminal cult in a foreign
land giving them high-level national security briefings.
> >What is?
>
> All of it.
>
> We are due for the smack-down of all fucking creation. It pervades every niche
> of our society. We breathe it, it permeates our pores, we eat and excrete it.
>
> And there's nothing you can do about it. No one understands that $cientology
> is a nut cult bent on world domination. No one understands that the only
> advantage that the U.S. military has is technology and education. No one
> understands that our society is one breath away from a world-spanning
> apocalypse that will kill nine of every ten people on the planet, and that the
> United States and who knows how many other states have the means to do it.
>
> People don't want to know. They prefer ignorance. That's why no one questions
> the government. That's why everyone thinks $cientology is a "religion." They
> SAY it's a religion, don't they? WHY WOULD THEY LIE?
>
> I really shouldn't lay all of this on you, Tom. It seems unfair, and it
> doesn't have anything to do with $cientology.
It has everything to do with scientology--it's its fecund breeding
ground.
>
> It is worse than you imagine because it is a runaway steamroller, completely
> out of anyone's control, fueled by mob psychology and cheap tricks, crafted
> lovingly by ad-men and slick politicians, and it will run over anyone in its
> way.
>
> The few good things that people can accomplish by being in the system are
> completely undone by their corruption by that system. It brings out the worst
> in EVERYONE.
>
> And that is one very specific example, from a very specific profession,
> representing less than 0.002 percent of the population of the United States.
>
> Imagine the web of interconnecting lies and deceit that must exist to make it
> possible for such a thing to exist. It touches everyone you know.
>
> They say ignorance is no excuse, but ignorance is THE excuse, and no one knows
> EVERYTHING. It's a convenient excuse, and someone uses it every damned day.
>
> That is why I prefer to deal in facts, such as they are. If I know something,
> I tend to let the people around me know. And I did. It looks like a fake.
> Take it for what it's worth. Again, I have no wish to debate it further.
>
> Don't believe the hype*
> *and it's all hype
>
Keith Henson
snip
> The issue here was the authenticity of the message. I lent my
> expertise to say there was something just not right about it. Is
> there a problem with that? Or should I just sit back and watch this
> go on and chuckle with a "I knew that" if things don't go quite right.
And I appreciate what you did however it turns out.
> This is a group (what do you call a herd of cats?) effort and I was
> lending my bit of knowledge. If you don't want that then I can just
> stay in permanent lurker status.
It's usenet. A consensis on this may emerge. Or a definative source
may come forward. Or some issues are never cleared up. All we can do
is see what happens.
Keith Henson
Starshadow
"Tom Klemesrud" <tom...@netins.net> wrote in message
news:399730B2...@netins.net...
If they'd have looked at some sf cons they would'a found him.
But my small experience with the FBI has never impressed me. I saw them
trying to run down a draft dodging friend of mine and they were extremely
clumsy about it.
--
Bright Blessings,
Starshadow (SP4, KoX) (Yes, I have an @home account now. )
(stars...@starshadow.net still works)
"Feminism--the radical notion that women are people, too"
Starshadow
"Mike Jackson" <mjac...@spamless.ftc-i.net> wrote in message
news:lrbeps8lb5ck5vhc2...@4ax.com...
>
> I had to simmer down a bit before I posted. Yes there are things in
> the government that I don't approve of, and there are avenues
> available to remedy that. If your vision of a patriot is someone who
> spills his guts to the press, well then move over Thomas Jefferson
> because you're about to take a backseat to me. However _my_
> conscience dictates that I will not do that.
>
> However, as much as I disagree with what you said, I and the thousands
> of other people in uniform have sworn to defend _with our lives_ your
> right to say that. Would you do the same?
>
> expertise to say there was something just not right about it. Is
> there a problem with that? Or should I just sit back and watch this
> go on and chuckle with a "I knew that" if things don't go quite right.
>
> lending my bit of knowledge. If you don't want that then I can just
> stay in permanent lurker status.
>
Mike,
You will get agreed with by some and diagreed with by others. Please don't
take it personally, either way. I think whatever your point of view, your
voice is of value. Everyone's--with the exception of the sock puppets and
even they show a lot-- views are important. Oh, except for my killfile folk.
Heh.
--
Bright Blessings,
Starshadow (SP4, KoX) (Yes, I have an @home account now. )
(stars...@starshadow.net still works)
"Feminism--the radical notion that women are people, too"
> Tom Klemesrud <tom...@netins.net> wrote:
Mephistopheles51
>In short, stop the threats: Start your frigin' raids . . . but we're
>used to those
Threats? I've made no threats.
Raids? "Your" frigin' raids? I think you have me mistaken for someone else.
I'll just chalk this one up to my mistake, Tom.
I have no wish to debate it with you.
Don't believe the hype*
mimus
>The issue here was the authenticity of the message. I lent my
>expertise to say there was something just not right about it. Is
>there a problem with that? Or should I just sit back and watch this
>go on and chuckle with a "I knew that" if things don't go quite right.
>
>This is a group (what do you call a herd of cats?) effort and I was
>lending my bit of knowledge.
Meow meow * meow * meow. Meow * meow * meow.
[Translation: All rational contributions, and even some not greatly
so, are appreciated. Regardless of how it may seem at the time.]
Mephistopheles51
>No, not that their patriotism is in question:
Well, that's good to hear.
>Tonight Gore Vidal called
>the US the largest rogue state in the world. I say that those who could
>expose this government's rogue activities to the public, should do so as
>an act of patriotism.
Indeed? I think you overestimate the breadth of government corruption. It
would simply involve too many people. The truth would come out. You also
underestimate the courage and conviction of your fellow citizens, I think.
>I dispute thousands of foreign spies seeking to undermine the law of our
>foreign allies in the interest on internal domestic terrorists, is not
>in the People's interest.
"foreign spies?" Are you referring to $cientology's agents, the U.S.
government's, or one of our foreign allies'?
>I feel most vulnerable to the threats posed to me by my our corrupt
>government--the USA.
It's true that your government (and mine) is now doing things we condemn other
countries for. This does not make us worse than other countries, nor does a
desire to confront it make us better than them. Every country on earth has its
revolutionaries.
The difference between them (true rogue states) and us is that, for the most
part, the secret police don't bang on your door at three in the morning and
drag you away to a little cell with water dripping from a bare lightbulb in the
ceiling to "work you over." The law is usually, for I cannot say always, the
supreme rule of the land, whether federal, state, or local.
>As a government worker, or government supporter, you may know less than
You heard right.
>What is?
All of it.
We are due for the smack-down of all fucking creation. It pervades every niche
of our society. We breathe it, it permeates our pores, we eat and excrete it.
And there's nothing you can do about it. No one understands that $cientology
is a nut cult bent on world domination. No one understands that the only
advantage that the U.S. military has is technology and education. No one
understands that our society is one breath away from a world-spanning
apocalypse that will kill nine of every ten people on the planet, and that the
United States and who knows how many other states have the means to do it.
People don't want to know. They prefer ignorance. That's why no one questions
the government. That's why everyone thinks $cientology is a "religion." They
SAY it's a religion, don't they? WHY WOULD THEY LIE?
I really shouldn't lay all of this on you, Tom. It seems unfair, and it
doesn't have anything to do with $cientology.
It is worse than you imagine because it is a runaway steamroller, completely
out of anyone's control, fueled by mob psychology and cheap tricks, crafted
lovingly by ad-men and slick politicians, and it will run over anyone in its
way.
The few good things that people can accomplish by being in the system are
completely undone by their corruption by that system. It brings out the worst
in EVERYONE.
And that is one very specific example, from a very specific profession,
representing less than 0.002 percent of the population of the United States.
Imagine the web of interconnecting lies and deceit that must exist to make it
possible for such a thing to exist. It touches everyone you know.
They say ignorance is no excuse, but ignorance is THE excuse, and no one knows
EVERYTHING. It's a convenient excuse, and someone uses it every damned day.
That is why I prefer to deal in facts, such as they are. If I know something,
I tend to let the people around me know. And I did. It looks like a fake.
Take it for what it's worth. Again, I have no wish to debate it further.
David Lesher
>No, they would probably go to jail - hard time in Leavenworth. Anyone with
>access to classified information is require to sign a standard non-disclosure
>agreement which states they will safeguard such information, preventing its
>disclosure to anyone without a valid clearance and a need to know. You do not
>have a legitimate need to know.
Once again, SBU just ain't classified. The laws that apply to classified
do NOT apply to unclassified.
There are admin penalities that vary agency by agency. But I welcome
a cite of anyone Up The River for anything involving SBU or other
unclassified.
--
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433
Chris Owen
<mjac...@spamless.ftc-i.net> writes
>
>Rod,
> My experience with Diplomatic Messages are that they are always sent
>over encryted data circuits, and that they are always classfied. Now
>if someone wants you to believe that this is genuine, they messed up
>in two ways. 1) They would have to be on the transmitting end or
>receiving end with access to the clear-text message (line taps do no
>good on an encrypted circuit) which then leads to 2) All diplomatic
>messages are classified to some degree and releasing them before they
>are declassified or without *high* approval consistutes a security
>violation with repercussions similar to the Walker Family
Not so. I've seen hundreds if not thousands of diplomatic messages, and
the vast majority are unclassified, particularly if coming from a
"friendly" country. Classification ratings tend to be higher if they're
from an "unfriendly" country (Russia, say) simply because there's more
likely to be more sensitive traffic coming out of such a country.
For what it's worth, the telex comes across as absolutely genuine. If
it's a fake, the writer knows chapter and verse how to write a
diplomatic telex.
--
| Chris Owen - chr...@OISPAMNOlutefisk.demon.co.uk |
|---------------------------------------------------------------|
| THE TRUTH ABOUT L. RON HUBBARD AND THE UNITED STATES NAVY |
| http://www.ronthewarhero.org |
Chris Owen
<hkhe...@netcom3.netcom.com> writes
>Rod Keller <rke...@netaxs.com> wrote:
>> Keith Henson (hkhe...@netcom3.netcom.com) wrote:
>> : Rod Keller <rke...@netaxs.com> wrote:
>> : > I don't agree with your interpretation of the treaty. I have a copy and
>> : > will put it on parishioner.org soon. It's pretty clear-cut in this case.
>> : > They have to serve the papers. In the document, they say for the integrity
>> : > of the U.S. Law Enforcement process, they have to serve the papers.
>> :
>> : Of course, 1) they would have to find Heber and 2) even if they did, all
>> : it would mean is that Heber would ignor the papers.
>
>> I think U.S. Marshals can find him, and I doubt he can ignore a federal
>> subpoena.
>
>They never did find LRH.
There never were any charges brought against him, so although they were
naturally interested in his whereabouts, the US Government didn't
actively go looking for him.
Chris Owen
<tinmi...@hotmail.com> writes
>
>Have you read _The Diaries of a Cabinet Minister_ (Volume 1 1964-1966)
>by Richard Crossman? They're the real diaries of a real Minister,
>voluminous, fascinating, frequently hilarious and _Yes, Minister_ and
>_Yes, Prime Minister_ are in large part based on them--sometimes on
>actual incidents. (There's at least one actual reference in the _M_
>duo to those diaries--where Crossman was informed by his respectful
>and competent Civil Service assistant that if he didn't want to mess
>with what was in his "In" box all he had to do was move it to his
>"Out" box and that would be that . . . .)
They *are* good, but for a more up-to-date look at the Minister's world
I absolutely recommend the late Alan Clark's _Diaries_ - superb
literature in their own right but also the definitive insider's view of
the Thatcher years. Another volume (unfinished when he died) is due to
be released soon.
>(I presume Vol. 2 was published, but haven't got it yet.)
Yup. Look for the mentions of our favourite cult. Crossman was very
much against the immigration ban introduced in 1968 for foreign
Scientologists, which is perhaps why the ban was announced in the House
by Kenneth Robinson (the Health Minister) and not Crossman (the Home
Secretary, with responsibility for immigration policy).
kEvin
>The U.S. - Spain Treaty on mutual Legal Assistance in Criminal Matters is
>now available at http://parishioner.org/mlatspain.html
Thank you for putting the treaty up.
>Regardless of the laws of the U.S., the government must comply with the
>request for service of documents.
Yes. I had jumped that step and it's an important one. Right now, Heber
is out on bail. After he's served, he'll have to appear and if he
doesn't, he'll become a bail jumper and then we get to my prediction
that he wouldn't be involuntarily extradited. The treaty Rod put up
clearly defines a US obligation to complete the service.
The amount of effort required and expended in efforts to serve
Heber will provide useful information about the cult's defense
strategy. If service is easy, they might well have decided to fight
this one on Spanish soil.
kEvin
m...@primenet.com
CL
>Nomen Nescio wrote:
<SNIP>
>>
>> What is NOT a speculation is that CST holds ultimate power
>> over all of Scientology, that they own all the copyrights, and
>> that for some strange reason most Scientologists have never
>> even heard of CST or know where its founders came from.
>> Three of the 4 names on its board aren't even Scientologists.
>>
>> Now, *is* Miscavige really in total control of Scientology, as
>> the public has been lead to believe? Or is someone else
>> pulling the strings behind the scenes? That's the $64 question
>> that nobody except Miscavige and a few others knows for
>> sure.
>
>Veritass, you chump.
Somebody said, "CST," and Roland-the-Pavlovian-Dog's knee jerked, his
ears twitched, and he barked, "Veritass! Rawr! Rrrrrawrf!"
It's actually kind of fun to watch.
Here, Roland; here boy: "CST!" Now--bark "Veritass!'
(BTW, Roland can't spell "Veritas" correctly. It's part of his drool
factor. You get used to it.)
Come on, Roland. Here ya' go: "CST." Now, bark, boy. Bark "Veritass!"
(It's kind of like when you scratch a puppy's ribs, and that back leg
starts going, and there is just nothing they can do to stop it. Stick
around. He'll bark it in a minute.)
What was he growling and chewing on?
>You keep pushing this ridiculous conspiracy theory of yours.
Oh, yeah--and Roland is a Miscavigite. A true disciple. Anything that in
any way begins to detract from the glory of the magic Miscavige mantle
really starts his lip curling and him to snarling. It usually comes
right after the "Veritass!" bark:
>And the truth comes out to dispel it again and again and growwwwl,
>snarrrrrrrl, woof! Woof! When you do a copyright violation the lawyer's
>email will clearly state that they represent the RTC. Like this:
>
>Dear Mr. Rashleigh-Berry:
>
> As you are well-aware, I represent Religious Technology Center
>("RTC"), the owner of the confidential Advanced Technology of the
>Scientology religion and the holder of exclusive rights under the
>copyrights applicable to the Advanced Technology materials.
And blah-blah-blah lawyer diarrhea.
Roland, being a Pavlovian bell-drooler, can't comprehend the legal
concepts of "ownership" and "holder" that have been fully explored here,
and he just can't comprehend that the RTC attorneys are also CST's
attorneys, and are always operating in CST's interests, particularly
when they are representing RTC, since they are then representing one of
CST's most important and lucrative licensees AND the front-corporation
that keeps CST hidden and protected.
This has been proven over and over and over, ad infinitum, ad nauseum in
this newsgroup with legal document after legal document, but it's just a
concept that sails completely over Roland's head--kinda' like a frisbee.
Fetch, boy!
Here, Roland: "CST!" Now, can you bark, boy? Bark it, Roland!
"RRrrrrrrOWF! VERITASS!"
Good boy! Here's a treat. Now go lick your balls.
CL
Rebecca Hartong
"Chris Owen" <chr...@lutefisk.OISPAMNOdemon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:UxfG6ZAX...@lutefisk.demon.co.uk...
> For what it's worth, the telex comes across as absolutely genuine. If
> it's a fake, the writer knows chapter and verse how to write a
> diplomatic telex.
Certainly, whoever wrote it knows a thing or two about how these message are
put together. There are a few problems with this one, though, that make its
authenticity suspect.
1. Messages sent through the DOS telecommunications system have a series of
formatted routing information heading and trailing what appears to be the
FL 12 of the message. This missing information identifies
orginator, recipients, classification, orgination date and time, and other
network routing information. These are necessary to fully evaluate the
authenticity of the message.
2. Sectioning of ACP127 messages is automatically accomplished by the
messages switches and is based on the total character count of the messages.
This character count includes all FLs in the message. Again, without the
missing FLs, it is not possible to determine if the message sectioning was
in fact actually done by the systems message switches.
3. The fact that "Section 01 of 02" has "2ND C O R R E C T E D C O P Y",
while "Section 02 of 02" has "C O R R E C T E D C O P Y" indicates that data
was lost during the sectioning process. The missing "2ND" is extremely
unlikely given the performance requirements of the DOS telecomminications
system. In additon the spelling of "CALSSIFICATION" in the second section
does not match the spelling "CLASSIFICATION" in the first section. Since
this information is automatically generated by the switching system, it
suggests that the message data is not a "copy" of the orginal message, but a
transcription at best.
3. The transmission of a "Corrected Copy" would involve the use of specific
communications codes within the missing FLs. Without the missing FLs, it is
not possible to determine if the FL12 shown was in fact a retransmission of
a valid message.
4. Although the use of "Sensitive but Unclassified" is a typical caveat
used in State Department messages, the position of these words in the
message is not in
accordance with the usual message format. Information handling instructions
(such as SENSITIVE BUT UNCLASSIFIED) are normally required to be placed
immediatly after the primary classification and BEFORE any passing
instructions ( FOR ....).
5. The reference identifications do not correspond to the usual daytime
group markings associated with DOS or DOD messages. Specifically MADRID
003029 is the DOS standard format, so the associated cable references would
normally be MADRID 994748 and MADRID 995061.
6. The "BTs" ( Break Transmission) are not in their normal position for a
properly formatted ACP 127 message. In an ACP 127 message the BTs are
required to be on separate lines in order to provide processing instructions
to automated message handling equipment. In addition, the absence of a
leading BT to match the associated trailing BT for each section is further
indication that this is not a complete message.
7. The presence of the name "ROMERO" at the bottom of the message indicates
that the ambassador himself released the message and has personally signed
it. However, such sensitive traffic that reflects the opinions
of the senior diplomat on station would usally be prefaced by the caveats of
"NOFORN" and/or "PERSONAL FOR" in the classification line.
An Metet
In article<39975FAD...@netins.net>, Tom Klemesrud
<tom...@netins.net> writes:
>Mephistopheles51 wrote:
>>
>> >From: Tom Klemesrud tom...@netins.net
>>
>> >No, not that their patriotism is in question:
>>
>> Well, that's good to hear.
>>
>> >Tonight Gore Vidal called
>> >the US the largest rogue state in the world. I say that those who could
>> >expose this government's rogue activities to the public, should do so as
>> >an act of patriotism.
>>
>> Indeed? I think you overestimate the breadth of government corruption. It
>> would simply involve too many people. The truth would come out. You also
>> underestimate the courage and conviction of your fellow citizens, I think.
>>
>> >I dispute thousands of foreign spies seeking to undermine the law of our
>> >foreign allies in the interest on internal domestic terrorists, is not
>> >in the People's interest.
>>
>> "foreign spies?" Are you referring to $cientology's agents, the U.S.
>> government's, or one of our foreign allies'?
>
>the "thousands" you referred to in the paragraph you deleted
>above--those working abroad who needs the cloak of privacy you
>mentioned. I see no reason to send secret messages at all. Foreign
>policy should be such that we say what we mean, and mean what we say.
But options what to do next in COMMERCIAL negotiation are often
kept private. Remarks such as "we can meet that but we're sunk
if the competition drive the price much lower" (which may be
necessary to **make**, to keep the guys on the ground fully
informed) are hardly something you want the competition to hear.
|~/ |~/
~~|;'^';-._.-;'^';-._.-;'^';-._.-;'^';-._.-;||';-._.-;'^';||_.-;'^'0-|~~
P | Woof Woof, Glug Glug ||____________|| 0 | P
O | Who Drowned the Judge's Dog? | . . . . . . . '----. 0 | O
O | answers on *---|_______________ @__o0 | O
L |<a href="news:alt.religion.scientology"></a>_____________|/_______| L
www.xemu.demon.co.uk 2B0D 5195 337B A3E6 DDAC BD38 7F2F FD8E 7391 F44F
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ptsc
>mephisto...@aol.comNOSPAM (Mephistopheles51) writes:
>>No, they would probably go to jail - hard time in Leavenworth. Anyone with
>>access to classified information is require to sign a standard non-disclosure
>>agreement which states they will safeguard such information, preventing its
>>disclosure to anyone without a valid clearance and a need to know. You do not
>>have a legitimate need to know.
>Once again, SBU just ain't classified. The laws that apply to classified
>do NOT apply to unclassified.
>There are admin penalities that vary agency by agency. But I welcome
>a cite of anyone Up The River for anything involving SBU or other
>unclassified.
Years ago, Grady Ward was somehow involved in the dissemination of the
NSA Employees Manual, which I believe is also SBU, or at least is not
supposed to be released by employees. He was followed about a bit and
somewhat entertained, but nothing ever came of the threats, as there
was nothing legal they could do about it. I'm sure they could have
thought of something, but not without making themselves look like even
bigger fools.
ptsc
David Lesher
> But my small experience with the FBI has never impressed me. I saw them
>trying to run down a draft dodging friend of mine and they were extremely
>clumsy about it.
It's not for nothing that that are known in some quarters as
"Fastidious But Incompetent"...
Nomen Nescio
CL, I wrote the post that Roland is making fun of. Notice how
I did not respond to his goading. I let it drop. Because I know
it's only going to degenerate into back-and-forth name
calling.
Roland thinks it's a stupid conpiracy theory. Fine, I'm perfectly
willing to let him be. I do not crave, nor am I dumb enough to
think that I can achieve, everyone's agreement.
Roland does a good job as a critic exposing the evils of the cult.
I would much rather see him continue to attack the cult than
become embroiled in a name-calling flame war over whether
Miscavige controls CST or vice versa.
I think that Roland is willing to say "this is a stupid conspiracy
theory" and drop it at that. And if he does, I would be perfectly
happy to admit that he might be right, and let him go back to
criticizing the cult of Scientology.
And CL for your information, I think as you do in that I believe
Micavige is probably influenced by a higher outside power.
Even if I may not agree with all your details about how and
why.
Anonymous...@See.Comment.Header (CL) wrote:
>Somebody said, "CST," and Roland-the-Pavlovian-Dog's knee jerked, his
>ears twitched, and he barked, "Veritass! Rawr! Rrrrrawrf!"
>
>It's actually kind of fun to watch.
>
>Here, Roland; here boy: "CST!" Now--bark "Veritass!'
[snip unproductive name-calling]
Starshadow
"David Lesher" <wb8...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:8n8sf4$t3h$1...@panix6.panix.com...
> "Starshadow" <starsh...@home.com> writes:
>
>
> > But my small experience with the FBI has never impressed me. I saw them
> >trying to run down a draft dodging friend of mine and they were extremely
> >clumsy about it.
>
> It's not for nothing that that are known in some quarters as
> "Fastidious But Incompetent"...
Yeah, once they were parked outside a residence of another pal, who used
speed and assorted pharmaceuticals, and this fool spent two hours pretending
to rummage in his trunk. He'd look at my friend's house, then rummage, look,
then rummage. And this friend also had his phone tapped--I think they
thought he was dealing, more than he was (I think he did a bit to support
his habit, though not being into drugs I didn't care )--he'd call me when I
was still living with my parents, and we'd hear funny little noises, then
we'd start talking nonsense..he'd say "Mine eyes have seen the glory of the
coming of the Lord" and I'd answer "Tearing down the highway in a
fifty-seven Ford" and we'd go back and forth until the noises stopped, then
resume our conversation. I'm sure they thought they were code.
They used to open my mail too, till I got a post office box. Another
friend and I had an ongoing Star Trek fantasy role playing, and I bet those
are enshrined in some folder where they were thought to be code, too. Funny.
All it was, was silly teenager stuff.
mimus
>In article <3996de5f...@news.zoomnet.net>, mimus
><tinmi...@hotmail.com> writes
>>
>>Have you read _The Diaries of a Cabinet Minister_ (Volume 1 1964-1966)
>>by Richard Crossman? They're the real diaries of a real Minister,
>>voluminous, fascinating, frequently hilarious and _Yes, Minister_ and
>>_Yes, Prime Minister_ are in large part based on them--sometimes on
>>actual incidents. (There's at least one actual reference in the _M_
>>duo to those diaries--where Crossman was informed by his respectful
>>and competent Civil Service assistant that if he didn't want to mess
>>with what was in his "In" box all he had to do was move it to his
>>"Out" box and that would be that . . . .)
>
>They *are* good, but for a more up-to-date look at the Minister's world
>I absolutely recommend the late Alan Clark's _Diaries_ - superb
>literature in their own right but also the definitive insider's view of
>the Thatcher years.
OK, that sounds simultaneously fascinating and nauseating.
> Another volume (unfinished when he died) is due to
>be released soon.
>
>>(I presume Vol. 2 was published, but haven't got it yet.)
>
>Yup. Look for the mentions of our favourite cult. Crossman was very
>much against the immigration ban introduced in 1968 for foreign
>Scientologists, which is perhaps why the ban was announced in the House
>by Kenneth Robinson (the Health Minister) and not Crossman (the Home
>Secretary, with responsibility for immigration policy).
Hah, I thought he was done for politically when they made him Lord
President of the Council or whatever.
A ban on clam immigration, eh? Did that get passed? How long did it
last?
> | Chris Owen - chr...@OISPAMNOlutefisk.demon.co.uk |
> |---------------------------------------------------------------|
> | THE TRUTH ABOUT L. RON HUBBARD AND THE UNITED STATES NAVY |
> | http://www.ronthewarhero.org |
--
Dave Bird
Hash: SHA1
In article<db521f05a65f1667...@dizum.com>, Nomen Nescio
<nob...@dizum.com> writes:
>
>And CL for your information, I think as you do in that I believe
>Micavige is probably influenced by a higher outside power.
You believe in a literal Satan with horns, tail, and brimstone ??
- --
^-^-^-@@-^-;-^ http://www.xemu.demon.co.uk/
(..)__u news:alt.smoking.mooses
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Beverly Rice
> Nomen Nescio
> >And CL for your information, I think as you do in that I believe
> >Micavige is probably influenced by a higher outside power.
> You believe in a literal Satan with horns, tail, and brimstone ??
You know, Dave . . .
You ~DO~ make me laugh :-)
Beverly
Mephistopheles51
>There are admin penalities that vary agency by agency. But I welcome
>a cite of anyone Up The River for anything involving SBU or other
>unclassified.
Indeed. ptsc previously pointed out this classification. Unfortunately,
either my memory is faulty, or I was never exposed to this during my brief stay
in government employ.
Unclassified is simply that: unclassified.
"Sensitive But Unclassified" seems like so much waste of header space to me.
It isn't like the damned things aren't long enough to begin with. Some of them
run on for pages, depending on who the message's intended recipients are.
Chris Owen
<tinmi...@hotmail.com> writes
>Chris Owen <chr...@lutefisk.OISPAMNOdemon.co.uk> posted:
>
>>In article <3996de5f...@news.zoomnet.net>, mimus
>><tinmi...@hotmail.com> writes
>>>
>>>Have you read _The Diaries of a Cabinet Minister_ (Volume 1 1964-1966)
>>>by Richard Crossman? They're the real diaries of a real Minister,
>>>voluminous, fascinating, frequently hilarious and _Yes, Minister_ and
>>>_Yes, Prime Minister_ are in large part based on them--sometimes on
>>>actual incidents. (There's at least one actual reference in the _M_
>>>duo to those diaries--where Crossman was informed by his respectful
>>>and competent Civil Service assistant that if he didn't want to mess
>>>with what was in his "In" box all he had to do was move it to his
>>>"Out" box and that would be that . . . .)
>>
>>They *are* good, but for a more up-to-date look at the Minister's world
>>I absolutely recommend the late Alan Clark's _Diaries_ - superb
>>literature in their own right but also the definitive insider's view of
>>the Thatcher years.
>
>OK, that sounds simultaneously fascinating and nauseating.
It is. The fact that he was a sex-crazed adulterous nouveau-riche snob
adds to the piquant mixture. There's one delightfully crazed passage
about how he passed the time on a train watching the "abundant globes"
of an attractive female passenger. Clark was later famously exposed as
having simultaneously seduced the wife and daughters of a prominent
South African judge, who swore to horsewhip him.
>>Yup. Look for the mentions of our favourite cult. Crossman was very
>>much against the immigration ban introduced in 1968 for foreign
>>Scientologists, which is perhaps why the ban was announced in the House
>>by Kenneth Robinson (the Health Minister) and not Crossman (the Home
>>Secretary, with responsibility for immigration policy).
>
>Hah, I thought he was done for politically when they made him Lord
>President of the Council or whatever.
>
>A ban on clam immigration, eh? Did that get passed? How long did it
>last?
It was introduced by Order in Council - a procedural device which allows
British Governments to introduce new regulations with debates or votes.
The ban lasted until 1980, when it was repealed by Margaret Thatcher's
government. The intervening years were quite an interesting time, as
the GO made strenuous efforts to gain covert influence in Parliament. A
Labour MP championed Scientology for more than 10 years, a Tory MP
actually became a Scientologist (the Tories saw it as an example of the
"socialist nanny state" at work) and, reportedly, a GO agent slept her
way around the senior levels of the Liberal party. Exactly why the ban
was repealed was never made clear.
--
Chris Owen
Rebecca Hartong <praet...@cox.rr.com> writes
>
>"Chris Owen" <chr...@lutefisk.OISPAMNOdemon.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:UxfG6ZAX...@lutefisk.demon.co.uk...
>
>> For what it's worth, the telex comes across as absolutely genuine. If
>> it's a fake, the writer knows chapter and verse how to write a
>> diplomatic telex.
>
>Certainly, whoever wrote it knows a thing or two about how these message are
>put together. There are a few problems with this one, though, that make its
>authenticity suspect.
Few telexes are written and addressed perfectly. I used to get
inundated with telexes from sub-Saharan Africa because the SIC
(distribution) code for that region differed by one digit from the
region which I actually dealt with. My point is that considered as a
whole, rather than nitpicking small elements, the telex is extremely
convincing. It also fits in very well with what I know of the
Administration's approach to Scientology, which has aroused comment
outside the US as well as within.
Chris Owen
>> >people are considered american heroes for ratting-out a corrupt
>> >government you proudly speak of helping to secure that government's
>> >communications. (Have you ever had a fit of conscience in your 20
>> >years?)
>>
>> ng who've had experience with government communiques, and they've expressed
>> their doubts as to the cable's authenticity. From your comments, you've
>> obviously decided that their comments are unworthy of your consideration, and
>> that their patriotism is in question.
>
>No, not that their patriotism is in question: Tonight Gore Vidal called
>the US the largest rogue state in the world.
I'd have to agree. The current biggest threat to world security is not
Saddam Hussein or Slobodan Milosevic but the madcap National Missile
Defence plan. Trying to turn the USA into a huge gated community is a
pretty bad idea all round. And that's even before I get onto the
arrogant way that some US legislators (e.g. Helms-Burton) claim
extraterritorial rights for the US in defiance of all international law,
or the US's refusal to endorse the International Criminal Court - a
distinction it shares only with Iraq, Libya and North Korea.
Deana Marie Holmes
<ZDBk11F$lFm5...@xemu.demon.co.uk>:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
>In article<db521f05a65f1667...@dizum.com>, Nomen Nescio
><nob...@dizum.com> writes:
>>
>>And CL for your information, I think as you do in that I believe
>>Micavige is probably influenced by a higher outside power.
>
> You believe in a literal Satan with horns, tail, and brimstone ??
No, the higher power is money. You know, the folding green kind with lots
of zeros on it?
Deana
mir...@xmission.com
Dave Bird
>> >Micavige is probably influenced by a higher outside power.
>
>> You believe in a literal Satan with horns, tail, and brimstone ??
>
>You ~DO~ make me laugh :-)
<takes a bow> I try my best to please.
-- . . : : ,; . : ' ___.
uno, dos, tres, |FUEGO| .:. .:. .:': :' .:':' :. . : (") #oH|
' ' :' : :' : .::. H_ ~~~|
< > __ ,;;,. \\::// R_) |
'-|"""(") {__}::===== ....'''' ' ' ' ___..\||/....L\. ...|
____||--|_'--/__\___ '' .--''':::::::::::::::::::::
\ / /////////////S.Coronado/////
;'^';-._.-;'^';-._.-;'^';-._.-;'^';-._;'^';-._.-;'^';-._.-;'^';-._.-;'^
LRon Hubbard is shelled by goats in hell. www.xemu.demon.co.uk/clam/
Rebecca Hartong
> In article <NAPl5.19030$rd1.4...@typhoon-news1.southeast.rr.com>,
> Rebecca Hartong <praet...@cox.rr.com> writes
> >
> >"Chris Owen" <chr...@lutefisk.OISPAMNOdemon.co.uk> wrote in message
> >news:UxfG6ZAX...@lutefisk.demon.co.uk...
> >
> >> For what it's worth, the telex comes across as absolutely genuine. If
> >> it's a fake, the writer knows chapter and verse how to write a
> >> diplomatic telex.
> >
> >Certainly, whoever wrote it knows a thing or two about how these message
are
> >put together. There are a few problems with this one, though, that make
its
> >authenticity suspect.
>
> Few telexes are written and addressed perfectly.
It's not simply a matter of having been imperfectly written or addressed.
From what I understand, parts of the message that are automated are
different from one section of the message to another or are missing
entirely. (The leading BT codes, for example, or the missing "2nd" and the
different spelling of "UNCLASSIFIED" in the second part of the message.)
> I used to get
> inundated with telexes from sub-Saharan Africa because the SIC
> (distribution) code for that region differed by one digit from the
> region which I actually dealt with. My point is that considered as a
> whole, rather than nitpicking small elements, the telex is extremely
> convincing.
It is in "nitpicking small elements" that the truth of a situation is often
revealed.
> It also fits in very well with what I know of the
> Administration's approach to Scientology, which has aroused comment
> outside the US as well as within.
That may all be true. However, parts of this message that would be
*computer-generated* are simply wrong. One explanation is that this is not
an actual copy of the original message but, rather, simply an imperfect
transcription of an original message dressed up to look like an actual copy.
Another explanation is that this is a combination of pieces of two or more
separate messages put together and edited to look like it's all one message.
A third explanation is that it's a forgery written by someone with
experience reading this type of message. It's prudent, I think, to avoid
leaping to any conclusions about the message's authenticity considering the
errors in what would be computer-generated information-- not to mention the
several "style odditities" present in the message.
Joe's Garage
>
> "Chris Owen" <chr...@lutefisk.OISPAMNOdemon.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:UxfG6ZAX...@lutefisk.demon.co.uk...
>
> > For what it's worth, the telex comes across as absolutely genuine. If
> > it's a fake, the writer knows chapter and verse how to write a
> > diplomatic telex.
>
> Certainly, whoever wrote it knows a thing or two about how these message are
> put together. There are a few problems with this one, though, that make its
> authenticity suspect.
>
It looks like you're drawing up a list of authentic complaints for
Scientology to make to the State Department in regard to their authentic
message. This is getting rather sordid.
Joe Cisar: http://cisar.org/rfs0100.htm
Overview of Scientology in Germany: http://cisar.org/overview.htm
Why would Gottfried Helnwein, one of the world's leading Scientologists,
lie? See http://members.tripod.com/German_Scn_News/has00.htm