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One less scientologist in the world

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Stacy Young

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May 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/19/98
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Scientology is spreading the word far and wide through its Office of
Special Affairs network that I have gone into the business of forcible
deprogramming. During the past two weeks, OSA operatives have literally
stalked me across the country. They have known my travel plans and have met
my flights at various airports. They've known where I was staying and have
showed up at my hotel rooms. They have harassed me while I was having
lunch, and they have interrupted me at dinner to take my photograph.

The amazing thing is what I actually did to cause all of this commotion: I
sat down with a young scientologist and told her about my own firsthand
experiences in scientology. I gave her some information. That's all I did.
After she had received the information, she decided she didn't want to be
in scientology any more. No force, no violence, no coercion. Just a free
flow of information. Freedom of choice.

Does this qualify as "deprogramming" at all, much less "forcible
deprogramming"? I certainly don't think so. Personally, I would describe
it as a conversation between two adults exercising their rights of free
speech and free thought. But let me tell you the whole story of what has
caused OSA to be so afraid of me, and then all of you - scientologists and
non-scientologists alike - can decide for yourselves.

I've just spent several days in New Orleans with a wonderful family, the
Wessels. Their 27-year-old daughter Lara was recruited into scientology
about a year ago, and her family watched with alarm as their loving,
vivacious daughter's life was gradually enveloped by scientology. She had
been an aspiring, very talented actress, but once she got into scientology
she dropped her acting career entirely. The family had been very close,
but Lara had become distant. All she would talk about was scientology. Her
family was afraid they were going to lose her forever.

Lara's father Dave has some friends who were peripherally aware of a
network of people who deal with the cult problem. He contacted several of
his friends, who put him in contact with Monica Pignotti, an exit
counselor in New York, and Paul Grosswald, a former scientologist from New
York. Monica invited me to participate because she knew I had recently
helped another young woman who had left scientology on her own but had
been in really bad shape emotionally and psychologically by the time she
left. I had flown to the east coast to spend some time with her, and I had
been able to help her and her family simply because I have so much
information about what goes on and how it works inside.

So, after a long conversation with Lara's father Dave, he asked me to come
down to New Orleans because he thought I might be able to contribute some
useful information which Lara could use to make a decision about what she
wanted to do.

I arrived Tuesday (before Monica and Paul) and spent the evening with all
of Lara's family - her parents, her sister and her family, her brother and
his family, her aunt and uncle. It was very heartwarming to see how much
Lara is loved by these people. She is so lucky to have a family that cares
about her as much as they do. They had many, many questions for me, and I
answered them as well as I could. Lara had been home for the New Orleans
Jazzfest for nearly two weeks, and the whole family had been on pins and
needles, trying not to antagonize her by showing any negative feelings
about scientology. It had been exhausting for all of them.

Lara had been vigorously trying to recruit her entire family into
scientology ever since she'd been home, and everyone had been as polite in
their refusal as possible. She wanted them all to take courses at the
Baton Rouge mission, and she was sure that once they did a course they
would see why she was ready to dedicate the next billion years as a member
of scientology's elite Sea Organization. As horrified as the family was,
they had tried hard not to show it. Instead, at every opportunity her
brother Kris and her Aunt Shirley in particular had asked Lara if she
would be willing to speak to anyone about another side of the scientology
story. They told me Lara had said yes, she would. The family all agreed
Lara had been an independent thinker all her life, and they hoped that
that strength of hers would enable her to listen to legitimate
information, even if it was negative about scientology.

But now that the time had come, the family was extremely nervous and
wanted to make sure they knew what to do. The plan was for her brother
Kris and her Aunt Shirley, the two people she trusted the most, to take
Lara out for lunch the next day and tell her that her father had invited
some people to New Orleans who could give her some new information about
scientology if she was willing to listen to them. The family was
particularly worried about this step. What if she got angry and said no?
What if it drove her further into scientology and made the situation
worse?

From what they had told me about Lara, it didn't sound like she would
refuse. She loved her family enough to be willing to listen to another
side of the story if it was clearly important to them that she do so. It
also sounded as if she might already have begun to have doubts about her
involvement. I had not yet met her, but I had the feeling she was quite
strong-willed, with a mind of her own. I thought there was a good chance
that Lara would agree to listen to what we had to say.

By the end of the first evening the family was somewhat reassured, having
realized that there was nothing mysterious in the least about what was
about to happen. If Lara agreed to talk to us, we would provide her with
information that she had not had access to as a scientologist, and with
this information Lara would be in a position to make an informed choice
about whether or not she wanted to continue her involvement in
scientology. If she refused to talk to us, we would leave. It was as
simple as that. But, I told them, I was confident that she would agree,
perhaps out of a combination of love for her family and curiosity about
what kind of information we might have.

The next morning Monica and Paul arrived and we all met at the hotel while
Lara met her brother and aunt for lunch. As the time approached for the
meeting, we all piled in the car and drove to Lara's parents' house,
where, we hoped, Lara would soon join us. We made small talk for a while,
trying not to be nervous, but we all jumped when the phone finally rang.
It was Lara's brother Kris. She had agreed to meet with us, and they were
on their way. We all breathed a sigh of relief. The first big step had
been made!

Kris, Shirley and Lara arrived within a few minutes. Lara came right up
to me, shook my hand, and said cordially, "Hi, I'm Lara. Nice to meet
you." She did the same with Monica and Paul.

I asked her if she was nervous, and she said, "Yes, I guess I am a little
bit, but I'm interested in what you have to say. Let's get started."

We began by introducing ourselves and telling Lara briefly about each of
our histories in scientology. Monica had been in for six years, and she
had been with Hubbard on the ship. Paul had only been in for six months,
but he had joined the Sea Org in New York, where Lara had also joined, so
they had had similar experiences and knew some of the same people. I had
been in for fifteen years, at the Advanced Organization in Los Angeles and
later in the Guardian's Office, Author Services, Inc., and the Office of
Special Affairs.

Monica and Paul told her about some of their experiences, and Lara's
response was pretty much to say, "OK, but that kind of thing can happen
anywhere. No organization is perfect. It doesn't change the fact that
scientology helps a lot of people."

I said, "That's true, and I used to feel exactly the same way. But I
experienced some things that finally forced me to re-evaluate my
relationship with scientology. I'd like to share those experiences with
you so that you have a clear picture of the kind of organization you're
involved in."

Lara shrugged. "OK," she said. "I'm willing to hear what you have to say."

I spent about 45 minutes telling her about some of the experiences I had
in scientology. I told her that during all the years I was in scientology
I had always believed that if I could only move high enough up in the
ranks I would find scientology being practiced the way I thought it should
be, based on the policies I had read. But then I got all the way to the
top of the hierarchy, working directly with David Miscavige, and
discovered that, if anything, it was worse all the way at the top than it
had been lower down in the ranks. I told her about some of the things I
saw Miscavige do to staff, some of the things he ordered me to do to staff
which I refused to do, and I told her what happened that led me to refuse
to work with him at all, for which I was sent to the RPF.

When I was finished with my story, Lara decided she didn't want to be part
of a group in which people were abused the way I was, and the way other
people were that I described. That was literally all that happened. She
was given some information that she had not had previously. Monica and
Paul also gave her information, not only about their own experiences in
scientology but also about mind control and how it works. And that was the
extent of what happened that caused Lara Wessel to decide she no longer
wanted to be a scientologist.

Lara made her decision on Wednesday evening, May 6, the very first day we
talked to her. The next day, Thursday, we were all over at her sister's
house watching some videos of shows about scientology and mind control
when her father arrived with the news that two scientologists had showed
up at his house looking for Lara. He told them she had gone out of town
for a few days, thinking that would cause them to go away. Of course, as
we would soon find out, this just fueled their paranoia that Lara was
being "forcibly deprogrammed."

Thursday evening Lara's aunt surprised us all with tickets to the New
Orleans symphony. The music was wonderful and we all enjoyed ourselves
immensely, particularly Lara, who commented on how happy she was to have
her life back. After the program we were supposed to meet Lara's brother
and his wife for dinner. But when Lara called him he told her an
incredible story.

The New Orleans police and an ambulance had arrived at their parents'
house, all lights flashing. The police had received an anonymous phone
call that someone was committing suicide inside the house. No one was home
(since we were all at the symphony) so the police gained entry to the house
and searched it. Finding no one, they finally left.

We had warned the Wessels that scientology would not believe Lara had
decided on her own to leave scientology, that they would believe she had
been coerced or forced in some way to leave. But even we were
flabbergasted that scientology was going this far. Lara and her father
went down to the police station and both made statements about what was
happening. Lara made it clear in her statement that she had spoken to us
of her own free will, that she had not been coerced in any way, and that
she had decided to leave scientology based purely on the information she
had received.

We all thought that would be the end of it, but we were wrong. The next
night, Friday night, Monica, Paul and I headed back to our hotel and Lara
and her parents all went to bed by 10:30. At about 11:30 Lara was awakened
by flashing lights shining through her bedroom window and the doorbell
ringing repeatedly. She was afraid it was an OSA helicopter coming to get
her and she ran upstairs to her parents' room for protection. She woke her
father, who went downstairs and discovered several police officers at the
front door.

The police said they had received an anonymous call that someone was being
held against their will in the house and they wanted to come in and check
it out. Lara's father said they were welcome to come in but said he
thought he knew what this was all about and explained to them about what
had been happening with Lara and scientology. Then he called Lara, who
came upstairs in her pajamas and told the police she was not being held
against her will, she loved her parents and was very glad they had helped
her get out of scientology. The police by now were angry about being
manipulated by scientology, and one of the officers told Lara's father
that if he had any more trouble from scientology he would see that the
offenders were arrested.

By now the entire Wessel family was astonished and alarmed at what
scientology was doing. Certainly Lara was seeing a side of scientology
that she had never seen before. We explained to them that it is literally
impossible for a scientologist to accept the fact that someone might make
an informed choice to leave scientology. A scientologist firmly believes
that the only way someone in Lara's position would leave scientology would
be if they were forced to do so by being handcuffed, gagged and held
against their will. So these people who were orchestrating all of these
incidents truly believed they were trying to help Lara escape from the
clutches of evil forcible deprogrammers. The family just shook their heads
in amazement.

Saturday Monica and Paul left, and Lara and I had a relaxing day. We had
lunch at the House of Blues and she showed me a little bit of New Orleans.
Then we headed back to my hotel room so she could watch a couple of videos
that she hadn't had a chance to see yet. About 8:30 that night there was a
loud knocking at my hotel room door. I opened it and there stood two
heavy-set women, looking very serious. One of them pushed past me and
elbowed her way through the doorway, saying, "We're here to see Lara
Wessel. Where is she?"

Lara and I looked at each other in disbelief. More scientologists! Not
wanting to be rude, I invited the women into the room and introduced Lara
and myself. The two women looked surprised at my invitation but they came
into the room, obviously uncomfortable. I asked them their names. "Mary,"
the dark-haired woman said. "Tracy," said the blond one. "No last names?"
I asked. Tracy said, "You don't need to know our last names."

I invited them to sit down on the bed, which they did, and we all sat
around chatting for quite a long time. Lara told them what had happened -
that she had gotten information about scientology that she hadn't had
before and based on that information, she had decided she would rather not
be involved in it. This was completely unacceptable to Mary and Tracy.
Didn't Lara realize that everything someone like me would tell her was a
lie? Lara told them she didn't think any of us had lied to her, and she
urged them to get the same information themselves. "I don't want to hear
her lies," Tracy said in disgust.

I was able to find out that they were both public scientologists on lines
at the Baton Rouge Mission. I explained to them that at their echelon they
wouldn't know about the kinds of experiences I had at the upper echelons
of scientology management, and that much of what I had seen had caused me
to realize scientology was not what I had thought it was.

Tracy turned to Lara and, incredibly, said, "But look, what if you were a
Catholic and you found out the Pope was banging some nun at a convent?
That wouldn't keep you from being a devout Catholic and having the
benefits of Catholicism, would it? Well, it doesn't matter what's going on
in scientology management. You can still have wins and get up the Bridge
to Total Freedom. What difference does it make to you and your life what
management is doing?"

Lara and I were both speechless for a moment at this candid outburst. I
recovered first and said, "Tracy, as a devout Catholic, wouldn't you feel
some responsibility for at least making it known to the Pope that you
didn't approve of his conduct? Wouldn't you feel it was awfully
hypocritical of the Pope to bang this nun while insisting that all the
Catholics in the world respect the sanctity of marriage? I personally felt
that if the leadership of scientology was as corrupt as I discovered them
to be, I couldn't condone their behavior by continuing to be a
scientologist."

Tracy obviously felt she had made a blunder with her analogy of the Pope
and the nun. She tried to change the subject back to my lack of
credibility, but Lara interrupted her.

"I don't think you realize," Lara said, "that you aren't the only ones who
have been to see me and my family." She detailed all of the events of the
past several days, including the police and the flashing lights, the
sirens, being awakened at nearly midnight, how it had really frightened
her and her family. "At this point I have to tell you that you're
inadvertently involving yourselves in a pattern of harassment and invasion
of my and my family's privacy."

At this the two women glanced at each other uneasily, and then they both
stood up.

"It was very kind of you to invite us into your room," Tracy said. "I
think it's time for us to be going now."

Mary asked if we would be willing to watch a video with their side of the
story. We both said absolutely, we would watch it. She said she'd get it
to us, and then they left.

The next morning it was time to say goodbye. It was a sad parting, because
Lara and I had gotten to be good friends. But we promised to get together
again soon.

A production crew for a Swedish TV station had asked me to meet them in
Washington, D.C., for an interview, so I caught a plane to D.C. The New
Orleans trip had been emotionally draining for me. Settling into my seat
on the plane, I was suddenly exhausted. I looked forward to a relaxing
evening at my hotel.

But this was not to be. When I got off the plane in D.C., I saw Sylvia
Stanard from OSA's D.C. Office of Public Affairs walking toward me. Sylvia
and I have known each other since the late 1970s.

"Sylvia!" I said as she approached me. "What are you doing meeting me at
the airport?"

"Well," she replied, "I hear you're in the business of forcible
deprogrammings now, Stacy. I just want to make sure you aren't planning to
kidnap any of my staff."

I could see that she was dead serious, and I couldn't believe it.

"What are you doing in D.C. if you're not here to deprogram someone?" she
asked me. I told her I was there to be interviewed for Swedish TV, but she
didn't believe me.

"Why would they want to interview you? You don't know anything about the
situation in Sweden," she said, eyeing me skeptically. "No, that's not
what you're here for."

I tried to tell her that all I had done in New Orleans was to give Lara
information with which she then made her own decision. But it soon became
clear to me that Sylvia was not going to believe me no matter what I said.
In her mind, I was now a forcible deprogrammer and that was that.

Then she changed the subject. She wanted to know what happened that got me
out of scientology, so I invited her to ride with me to my hotel. I told
her the whole story of Vaughn getting beaten up by Norman Starkey, and how
Marion Dendiu, then the Org Officer at ASI, had taken Vaughn to her office
and assigned him lower conditions for upsetting Norman so badly that he
lost his temper.

But Sylvia clearly thought I was lying to her. By the time we got to my
hotel room she was back to worrying that I was going to kidnap her staff
and deprogram them.

"Stacy," she said, "I want you to look me straight in the eye and promise
me that you won't kidnap anyone while you're here."

I got so exasperated with her that I called Lara and asked her to tell
Sylvia herself what had happened in New Orleans. Sylvia and Lara chatted
for about fifteen minutes, while I unpacked my suitcase. Sylvia seemed
surprised that I didn't mind her talking to Lara, but my feeling was, why
not? Maybe something either Lara or I said to Sylvia might get through to
her and get her thinking. There is always that hope.

Sylvia and I parted cordially that evening, and Sylvia said she'd like to
get together with me while I was in D.C. I said that sounded fine. But as
it turned out, it was not to be.

The next day I met Joachim and Phillip, the Swedish TV crew. They filmed
an interview with me in the lobby of the Renaissance Hotel, and afterwards
we sat in the hotel restaurant for lunch. Soon after we ordered, Sue
Taylor and Alex Jones from OSA DC appeared at our table and began
harassing us. Phillip picked up his camera and began filming the whole
thing, of course. I was amazed that Sue was so rude to Joachim even though
she knew she was being filmed and that it would appear on national
television in Sweden.

We finally persuaded them to leave so we could eat lunch, but ten minutes
later Sue, Alex and Sylvia all came back to our table. They were totally
in our face and it was impossible to eat our lunch. I excused myself and
went and asked hotel security to escort them out as they were harassing
us. I returned to the table and sat down, and pretty soon security arrived
and said quietly to Sue Taylor, "If you don't leave immediately on your
own, I will have to help you leave," whereupon they all filed out of the
hotel.

Bob Minton had to come down to D.C. on other business, and I had never
actually met Arnie Lerma in person, so Bob took us both out on Tuesday
evening for a nice dinner so we could finally meet each other. We were
having a wonderful time when suddenly Matt Baraschi, one of OSA's more
boorish operatives, appeared at our table and began snapping photos of us.
It was incredibly offensive. I got up and convinced Matt to sit down next
to Bob so I could take their photo together. He handed me his camera, and
I immediately handed it to the maitre d', who turned around and took it
into the kitchen to dispose of it. Matt jumped up and ran after him into
the kitchen, creating an unbelievable scene in the restaurant. He soon
emerged with his camera and stormed out, after accusing me of theft.

Finally my trip was at an end. All of the confrontation with the
scientologists had been exhausting for me. I fell asleep as soon as the
plane took off and didn't wake up until the pilot announced we were about
to land in Seattle. I was really looking forward to getting home and
relaxing. I walked off the plane and into the terminal. The first person I
saw was Vaughn, and the next thing I knew Ann Ruble, the DSA Seattle, was
coming between Vaughn and me so that it was impossible for me to say hello
to him. She had a man with her named Larry something -- I missed his last
name. I guess I shouldn't have been surprised, but I was. I couldn't
believe they were there. Now I realized that I was virtually being stalked
all the way across the country. They knew what flights I was on; they knew
what hotels I was staying at, even what hotel rooms. It was unnerving to
realize I was being watched so closely by these people.

"Stacy," Ann said, "Sylvia called me and said you promised her you would
call her and let her know before you deprogrammed any of her staff in D.C.
I just want you to promise me the same thing here in Seattle."

These people had caught Vaughn off guard. He hadn't realized they were
scientologists at first, but when he did, it made him furious. He wanted
to call airport security and have them escorted out. I convinced him to
let me speak to Ann for a few minutes but she was actually quite rude and
was clearly there only to harass me and try to frighten me.

She said, "Stacy, you know who Rick Ross is, don't you? You don't want the
same thing to happen to you here in Washington, do you?"

Vaughn heard this and asked her if she was the one who supervised the
leafleting of the town of Vashon with hate literature about us, or if she
was the one who ordered our dog kidnapped and beaten almost to death. She
denied any knowledge of those things, and even denied knowing who private
investigator David Lee is.

In fact, it is possible that she really hasn't been in charge the
harassment we have been subjected to, and that she hasn't been kept
informed other than what she has read in the local newspaper. It has
probably all been run directly from Los Angeles. I don't think Ann would
have the stomach for the dirty tricks they've run on us, certainly I don't
think she would condone torturing our dog Mac. She is basically a caring
person who thinks she is helping people by her involvement in scientology.
She is just a dupe.

Lara Wessel, in the meantime, is thrilled to have her life back. She is
looking forward to getting her acting career back on track. She is happy
to be able to have all of her old friends back. She is educating herself
about mind control so she won't ever be taken in again. She is greatly
relieved to be in control of her own thoughts again.

After this experience it is more clear to me than ever that freedom of
speech and freedom of thought are the mortal enemies of totalitarianism.
No wonder scientology is out to destroy the Internet. No totalitarian
system of government can survive the free flow of information. No wonder
scientology is so afraid that one of their members might sit down and have
a conversation with me. God forbid a scientologist gains access to
information that is not under the control of the organization. God forbid
scientologists begin to exercise their inalienable rights of free speech,
free thought and free association.

I hope I have many more opportunities to sit and talk with scientologists.
I would be more than happy to share my experiences and insights with any
scientologist who is interested in what I have to say. I can be reached at
206-463-6809. Feel free to call any time of the day or night.

Stacy Young

LilAlex742

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May 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/19/98
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Thany you very much for posting this.


LilAlex

"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."
--philip k. dick

bc

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May 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/19/98
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Tue, 19 May 1998 21:08:28 GMT, st...@ptinet.net (Stacy Young)
brewed up the following, and served it to the group:

<snipped>

>Does this qualify as "deprogramming" at all, much less "forcible
>deprogramming"? I certainly don't think so. Personally, I would
describe
>it as a conversation between two adults exercising their rights of
free
>speech and free thought. But let me tell you the whole story of
what has
>caused OSA to be so afraid of me, and then all of you -
scientologists and
>non-scientologists alike - can decide for yourselves.

<snipped a wonderful story--strictly for bandwidth, ya know...>

Stacy, thank you for posting this.

Free speech and free thought--these are the most powerful weapons
against the cult. That was truly a magnificent, moving account.

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--------
"...she hates her life and what she's done to it
There's one more kid that'll never go to school
Never get to fall in love, never get to be cool"
--Neil Young

the above e-mail address remains fictional.
the real one is bc9424@spamTHIS!.concentric.net (if you remove spamTHIS!.)
*SP2(:)* KoX
...bc...

Tilman Hausherr

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May 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/19/98
to

Immediately report to ARS-CC and receive a clam cluster in gold!

(Plus a J&D silver ring for the trick with the "disposable" camera)


I'd wish that this story would be webbed with little cartoons :-)

Anne

unread,
May 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/19/98
to

Tilman Hausherr <til...@berlin.snafu.de> wrote:
: Immediately report to ARS-CC and receive a clam cluster in gold!

: (Plus a J&D silver ring for the trick with the "disposable" camera)


: I'd wish that this story would be webbed with little cartoons :-)

And I wish this story could be printed in every major newspaper
and magazine in the world!

Anne ...... anne...@panix.com

Dick Cleek

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May 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/19/98
to

Anne wrote:

> And I wish this story could be printed in every major newspaper
> and magazine in the world!

Great idea and you can help get it there. Simply use your web browser to
go to

http://www.mediainfo.com/emedia/

which is a hotlinked list of newspapers

find one you like and find the email contact address
copy and paste that address into the to: field that
you pull up as you send Stacy's article

If enough of us do that we'll get a hit somewhere and get
this published.... it has happened more than once on ars.

______________
Dick Cleek


Wolf

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May 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/19/98
to

Wow. OSA helicopters. The CofS Enforcement Division spending thousands
to follow Mr. Young around. Trash writing. Paranoid ravings of a
lunatic. All followed by the applause of harmonious follow up admiration
of his fellow brain-washed ARS cultists.

The only problem with this little fiction is Young shouldn't count on
selling the movie rights, it's a real snoozer. I give it a one popcorn
bag rating at best.

Wolf

Anne wrote:
>
> Tilman Hausherr <til...@berlin.snafu.de> wrote:
> : Immediately report to ARS-CC and receive a clam cluster in gold!
>
> : (Plus a J&D silver ring for the trick with the "disposable" camera)
>
> : I'd wish that this story would be webbed with little cartoons :-)
>

> And I wish this story could be printed in every major newspaper
> and magazine in the world!
>

> Anne ...... anne...@panix.com


Unit 61

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May 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/19/98
to

Stacy Young wrote:
>
> Scientology is spreading the word far and wide through its Office of
> Special Affairs network that I have gone into the business of forcible
> deprogramming. During the past two weeks, OSA operatives have literally
> stalked me across the country. They have known my travel plans and have met
> my flights at various airports. They've known where I was staying and have
> showed up at my hotel rooms. They have harassed me while I was having
> lunch, and they have interrupted me at dinner to take my photograph.

Great story. Thanks for posting.

John

Martin Hunt

unread,
May 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/19/98
to

In article <3561f49...@news.ptinet.net>,
st...@ptinet.net (Stacy Young) wrote:

>I've just spent several days in New Orleans with a wonderful family, the
>Wessels. Their 27-year-old daughter Lara was recruited into scientology
>about a year ago, and her family watched with alarm as their loving,
>vivacious daughter's life was gradually enveloped by scientology.

[account of an exit-counselling]

You do good work, Stacy.

>Tracy turned to Lara and, incredibly, said, "But look, what if you were a
>Catholic and you found out the Pope was banging some nun at a convent?
>That wouldn't keep you from being a devout Catholic and having the
>benefits of Catholicism, would it? Well, it doesn't matter what's going on
>in scientology management. You can still have wins and get up the Bridge
>to Total Freedom. What difference does it make to you and your life what
>management is doing?"

Wow; the walls are cracking there. Wouldn't surprise me if this
"Tracy", public Scientologist, soons leaves the cult.

>I hope I have many more opportunities to sit and talk with scientologists.
>I would be more than happy to share my experiences and insights with any
>scientologist who is interested in what I have to say. I can be reached at
>206-463-6809. Feel free to call any time of the day or night.
>
>Stacy Young

Those who call are in good hands. Thank you for posting the exit
counselling. I guess you're target #1 now, a deadly "deprogrammer",
to be hounded at every turn. Still, your account left me feeling
sorry for the deluded OSA staff more than angry at them. I'll
reserve the anger for David Miscavige and the other goons at the
top, who are orchestrating all this harassment of you.

--
Cogito, ergo sum. http://www.ncf.carleton.ca/~av282/
"If you mention the Holocaust one more time I'm going to break your
face in." - Scientology whore Sandy Rosen to Graham Berry at the
Keith Henson trial.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.


Martin Hunt

unread,
May 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/19/98
to

In article <356216...@micron.net>, Wolf <wolf...@micron.net> wrote:

>Wow. OSA helicopters. The CofS Enforcement Division spending thousands
>to follow Mr. Young around.

Stacy's very much a woman.

>Trash writing.

I see that.

>Paranoid ravings of a lunatic.

Psychs can help you with that.

Wolf

unread,
May 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/19/98
to

LilAlex742 wrote:

>
> Wolfy writes:
>
> >Wow. OSA helicopters. The CofS Enforcement Division spending thousands
> >to follow Mr. Young around.
>
> Okay. Your snide AND you can't read. Is that it?
>
> LilAlex

Aw c'mon LilAlex... I'm justing having fun at the expense of anyone
dense enough to write such schmaltz and even more fun at the expense of
those who blather acceptance of it as if spoken from the very mouth of
God.

And I can read, you can't spell... 'your' is a possesive, 'you're' is a
contraction of 'you are'. Duh... I year ago I didn't know what
super-literate was and now I are one!

Wolf


Starshadow

unread,
May 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/19/98
to

Thank you so much for this very moving post. And thanks for giving a
person back her life.


--
Bright Blessings,


Starshadow SP4, Granny Dyke

LilAlex742

unread,
May 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/20/98
to

Wolfy writes:

>Wow. OSA helicopters. The CofS Enforcement Division spending thousands
>to follow Mr. Young around.

Okay. Your snide AND you can't read. Is that it?


LilAlex

"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."
--philip k. dick

JimDBB

unread,
May 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/20/98
to

>Subject: One less scientologist in the world
>From: st...@ptinet.net (Stacy Young)
>Date: Tue, May 19, 1998 17:08 EDT

Thanks, Stacy, for this powerful and important post.

JimDBB

Feadog

unread,
May 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/20/98
to

>...

> I sat down with a young scientologist and told her about my own firsthand
> experiences in scientology. I gave her some information. That's all I
did.
> After she had received the information, she decided she didn't want to be
> in scientology any more. No force, no violence, no coercion. Just a free
> flow of information. Freedom of choice...

Way to go Stacy.

Feadog
--
Critical Scientology Links:
http://www.xenu.net/, http://www.primenet.com/~cultxpt/lisa.htm
Boston Herald - Series on Scientology; March 1998 (link may expire soon):
http://www.bostonherald.com/scientology/


Just Wog

unread,
May 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/20/98
to

On Tue, 19 May 1998 19:47:06 -0700, Unit 61 <zjohzn...@ezxeczpc.com> wrote:

:Stacy Young wrote:
:>
:> Scientology is spreading the word far and wide through its Office of


:> Special Affairs network that I have gone into the business of forcible
:> deprogramming. During the past two weeks, OSA operatives have literally
:> stalked me across the country. They have known my travel plans and have met
:> my flights at various airports. They've known where I was staying and have
:> showed up at my hotel rooms. They have harassed me while I was having
:> lunch, and they have interrupted me at dinner to take my photograph.

:
:Great story. Thanks for posting.
:
:John

My server has been having problems the last few days, would some please repost
Stacy's *great story*.... pleeeaaasse.

TIA

Bob, just Wog

Ted Mayett (KOX)

unread,
May 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/20/98
to

>loud knocking at my hotel room door. I opened it and there stood two
>heavy-set women, looking very serious. One of them pushed past me and
>elbowed her way through the doorway, saying, "We're here to see Lara
>Wessel. Where is she?"
>

>


>I was able to find out that they were both public scientologists on lines
>at the Baton Rouge Mission.

I'm wondering if maybe they only claimed to be Public for legal
reasons. It certainly seems that Staff or OSA would be used to bother
visitors in their hotel rooms. It seems odd that they were Public.
We are not talking about handing out OCA's on a street corner to save
the planet here, we're not even talking about selling DMSMH in a
supermarket parking lot. What was described here were "Public"
sophisticated enough to not give their full names when requested.
If they were Public, then they have previously done their time on
Staff in the past. IMO.

Or, are there so few staff there, or are the staff of such a low
quality that Public were sent?


--
Ted Mayett OT 1.1
http://xenu.phys.uit.no/cgi-bin/globloc.cgi

Catarina Pamnell

unread,
May 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/20/98
to

Thank you.


Catarina


-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading

Wolf

unread,
May 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/20/98
to

Martin Hunt wrote:
>
> In article <356216...@micron.net>, Wolf <wolf...@micron.net> wrote:
>
> >Wow. OSA helicopters. The CofS Enforcement Division spending thousands
> >to follow Mr. Young around.
>
> Stacy's very much a woman.

So sue me.

> >Trash writing.
>
> I see that.
>
> >Paranoid ravings of a lunatic.
>
> Psychs can help you with that.

Martin... I used to just think you were stupid. Now I think you're
really stupid. You need to go back to your starving beans&rice
melodrama, it suits you much better. It's much simpler and easier for a
weak mind to comprehend that than it is to see that the Lara Wessel
story is just another brainwashing. Matters not whether CofS is doing it
or some nosey broad from Seattle is - the effects are the same.

Wolf


LilAlex742

unread,
May 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/20/98
to

Wolfy points out:

>And I can read, you can't spell... 'your' is a possesive, 'you're' is a
>contraction of 'you are'. Duh... I year ago I didn't know what
>super-literate was and now I are one!

Caught me. Sorry. I do understand grammar, by the way. I am, however,
dyslexic, and often make similar blunders. I used to have real problems with
mixing up the letters D, P, and B, along with rearranging syllables. Now, my
mistakes are generally limited to the kind of homophone faux pa you pointed out
above. For some reason, its easy for me to find mistakes when proofing on
paper, and a little more difficult on the computer screen. Also, the
informality of a newsgroup tends to make me lax. I do try, but I've got faulty
wiring, and things sometimes come out wrong.

Since you have been kind enough to point out my spelling error, I thought that
I might, in the spirit of mutual self-betterment, point out yours. "possesive"
(sic) is actually spelled "possessive." Note the fourth "s." Also, in another


section of your reply, you wrote:

>Aw c'mon LilAlex... I'm justing having fun at the expense of anyone
>dense enough to write such schmaltz and even more fun at the expense of
>those who blather acceptance of it as if spoken from the very mouth of
>God.

I assume that you mistakenly added the suffix "ing" to the adverb "just"
because of your own faulty wiring, and not out of some ill-formed desire to
make a paronomasia with an obsolete variant of the word "joust."


So anyway, there's my explanation of my faults. Let's get back to you and your
reading comprehension skills.

PS I like schmaltz.

LilAlex


You write a swell letter. Glad somebody spells worse than I do.

Earnest Hemingway, in a letter to F. Scott Fitzgerald--24 Dec. 1925

LilAlex742

unread,
May 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/20/98
to

PPS (to Wolf)

AND by faux pa, I really did mean "false father," and not, faux pas, "false
step."

Well, okay. Maybe not. Maybe it was--gasp--a faux pas "faux pas."
Never thought I'd get to say that! It was worth making the gaff.

Pign...@worldnet.att.net

unread,
May 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/20/98
to

te...@skylink.net (Ted Mayett (KOX)) writes: >
>
> I'm wondering if maybe they only claimed to be Public for legal
> reasons. It certainly seems that Staff or OSA would be used to bother
> visitors in their hotel rooms. It seems odd that they were Public.
> We are not talking about handing out OCA's on a street corner to save
> the planet here, we're not even talking about selling DMSMH in a
> supermarket parking lot. What was described here were "Public"
> sophisticated enough to not give their full names when requested.
> If they were Public, then they have previously done their time on
> Staff in the past. IMO.
>
> Or, are there so few staff there, or are the staff of such a low
> quality that Public were sent?

Baton Rouge is a small org and OSA has been known to use public
on several occasions that I am aware of.

Monica Pignotti


Pign...@worldnet.att.net

unread,
May 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/20/98
to

Wolf <wolf...@micron.net> writes: >
>Wow. OSA helicopters. The CofS Enforcement Division spending thousands
> to follow Mr. Young around. Trash writing. Paranoid ravings of a
> lunatic. All followed by the applause of harmonious follow up admiration
> of his fellow brain-washed ARS cultists.
>
> The only problem with this little fiction is Young shouldn't count on
> selling the movie rights, it's a real snoozer. I give it a one popcorn
> bag rating at best.
>
If you'd take the trouble to read what Stacy actually wrote,
you'd see that Lara thought there were OSA helecoopters out
there, not that there were. OSA sent their people straight to
the family's doorstep who had driven all the way to New Orleans
from Baton Rouge.

As the person who organized this whole operation (on the
exit counseling side, that is) I can tell you that this was
no fiction. I was there, as were several members of the family
who are witnesses to Stacy's account, which is 100% accurate. The
Swedish reporters were even witnesses to what went on in Washington DC,
where OSA made total fools of themselves with their harrassment,
ranting and raving and attempts to disrupt the interview in the
restaurant.

Lara filed a report with the New Orleans Police department stating
that she was never at any time held against her will. I might add
that prior to this intervention, the family signed a form stating
that they agreed to my terms that there was never at tny time to be
any force used to hold her and that if there was, I would no longer
agree to be involved.

The police dept. and the New Orleans DA fortunately didn't share
your disbelief and were very supportive. The New Orleans Police
Dept. takes false 911 calls very seriously, since they were falsely
called out to the family's home on two occasions because of 911 calls
saying that someone was committing suicide and that someone was being
held against her will. What the people on ARS are too intelligent
to take seriously is your trolling.

Monica Pignotti


LilAlex742

unread,
May 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/20/98
to

Chris sez about something I said:

>: PS I like schmaltz.
>
>I don't. Too much foam and the can's a pain to open. I'll take a box o'
>YooHoo instead, any day.

ROTFL.

Also:

> I've fixed my copy of Microsoft word to look for my commoner
>mistakes though, which can come in handy. I seem to blow it on the same
>words all the time.

What do you do? Have it word search common homophone errors? I sometimes
think about doing that..

Also, if you get a near a copy of WEBSTER'S DICTIONARY OF ENGLISH USAGE read
the article on spelling. It will warm the heart of any dyslexic who has worked
hard to not stand out. It includes such pearls as...

begin quote

...quite a few usage commentators have been fond of belittling their
correspondents (the ones who disagree with them) and others on the basis of bad
spelling. But bad spelling is a flimsy basis for belittling anyone; you can
see that the literary reputations of Fitzgerald and Hemigway have not suffered
noticeably by their personal dificulties with English orthography.

end quote

P&Med

john smith

unread,
May 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/20/98
to

In article <35627A...@micron.net>, wolf...@micron.net wrote:
>Martin Hunt wrote:
>>
>> In article <356216...@micron.net>, Wolf <wolf...@micron.net> wrote:
>>
>> >Wow. OSA helicopters. The CofS Enforcement Division spending thousands
>> >to follow Mr. Young around.
>>
>> Stacy's very much a woman.
>
>So sue me.
>
>> >Trash writing.
>>
>> I see that.
>>
>> >Paranoid ravings of a lunatic.
>>
>> Psychs can help you with that.
>
>Martin... I used to just think you were stupid. Now I think you're
>really stupid. You need to go back to your starving beans&rice
>melodrama, it suits you much better. It's much simpler and easier for a
>weak mind to comprehend that than it is to see that the Lara Wessel
>story is just another brainwashing. Matters not whether CofS is doing it
>or some nosey broad from Seattle is - the effects are the same.
>
>Wolf
>
You mean it takes years for Scientology to brainwash someone, but Stacy can do
it over the course of dinner? Man, Scientology really IS behind in the Tek
War...

Scott A. McClare

unread,
May 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/20/98
to

Wolf <wolf...@micron.net> writes:

>Wow. OSA helicopters. The CofS Enforcement Division spending thousands

> to follow Mr. Young around. Trash writing. Paranoid ravings of a
> lunatic. All followed by the applause of harmonious follow up admiration
> of his fellow brain-washed ARS cultists.

ONE of the people Stacy was writing ABOUT was worried about "OSA
helicopters," and you use THAT as an excuse to "discredit" the entire
story.

So, on the one hand, we have a post by Stacy Young, a generally credible
person, which was (your claim of "trash writing" notwithstanding)
well-written and didn't say anything far-fetched.

On the other hand, we have you, who seems to have a problem with reading
comprehension.

Whom to believe????

> The only problem with this little fiction is Young shouldn't count on
> selling the movie rights, it's a real snoozer. I give it a one popcorn
> bag rating at best.

Why should give a crap what YOU think of Stacy's post? So far, I've seen
nothing from you except for the same tired macros the lying criminal cult
drags out to discredit stories like this.

Scott

--
Scott A. McClare SP4 GGBC#42 "I see you now and then in dreams
cj...@freenet.carleton.ca Your voice sounds just like it used to
http://www.ncf.carleton.ca/~cj871/ I believe I will hear it again
PGP 1024/E7950B29 via finger/keyserver God how I love you" - Mark Heard

Dave Bird---St Hippo of Augustine

unread,
May 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/20/98
to

In article <35627A...@micron.net>, Wolf <wolf...@micron.net> writes

>Martin Hunt wrote:
>>
>> In article <356216...@micron.net>, Wolf <wolf...@micron.net> wrote:
>>
>> >Wow. OSA helicopters. The CofS Enforcement Division spending thousands
>> >to follow Mr. Young around.
>>
>> Stacy's very much a woman.
>
>So sue me.
>
>> >Trash writing.
>>
>> I see that.
>>
>> >Paranoid ravings of a lunatic.
>>
>> Psychs can help you with that.
>
>Martin... I used to just think you were stupid.

And you think we set any store by your opinion?

--
<__"-$ <__" <__" <__"
:_ :_ :_ :_
-------------------------------- <__'
'. $CIENTOLOGY: ...__''--- :.
; . ''''''''
. . ' ': ': ':
: .' the bridge to .~~>~~> ~~>
:.' total madness ~~> ~~>

Wolf

unread,
May 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/20/98
to

LilAlex742 wrote:
>
> Since you have been kind enough to point out my spelling error, I thought that
> I might, in the spirit of mutual self-betterment, point out yours. "possesive"
> (sic) is actually spelled "possessive." Note the fourth "s."

Yep. You are absolutely correct. I never pick on anyone until they start
in on me. But I can see that you're much quicker than me at this, so I
concede.

> Also, in another
> section of your reply, you wrote:

> >Aw c'mon LilAlex... I'm justing having fun at the expense of anyone
> >dense enough to write such schmaltz and even more fun at the expense of
> >those who blather acceptance of it as if spoken from the very mouth of
> >God.
>
> I assume that you mistakenly added the suffix "ing" to the adverb "just"
> because of your own faulty wiring, and not out of some ill-formed desire to
> make a paronomasia with an obsolete variant of the word "joust."

Wow. Like I said... I concede. You win. I'll buy the beer.

Wolf

unread,
May 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/20/98
to

Scott A. McClare wrote:

>
> Wolf <wolf...@micron.net> writes:
>
> >Wow. OSA helicopters. The CofS Enforcement Division spending thousands
> > to follow Mr. Young around. Trash writing. Paranoid ravings of a
> > lunatic. All followed by the applause of harmonious follow up admiration
> > of his fellow brain-washed ARS cultists.
>
> ONE of the people Stacy was writing ABOUT was worried about "OSA
> helicopters," and you use THAT as an excuse to "discredit" the entire
> story.

Nah. That happened to be the only part that was actually interesting. It
reveals much about the actual mental state of the young lady... of
course Ms. Young would never give an account of the story that cast any
unfavorable light on her gallant efforts.

> So, on the one hand, we have a post by Stacy Young, a generally credible
> person, which was (your claim of "trash writing" notwithstanding)
> well-written and didn't say anything far-fetched.

You ARS culties are amazing little nuggets of wishy-washy mental
fortitude. With all the hatred and the sheer volume of your rancor
towards the horror of Scientology, it's revealing that your opinion
leaders are all ex-Scientologists. But, the significance of that may be
way too subtle for most of the reactionaries in your cult.

> Whom to believe????

I dunno. Why believe anyone? Why not examine your own hidden beliefs and
see if they're based on your precious facts or if you've been snowed.



> > The only problem with this little fiction is Young shouldn't count on
> > selling the movie rights, it's a real snoozer. I give it a one popcorn
> > bag rating at best.
>
> Why should give a crap what YOU think of Stacy's post? So far, I've seen
> nothing from you except for the same tired macros the lying criminal cult
> drags out to discredit stories like this.

One of the nice things about ARS is this: though ARS cultists dominate
the ng in sheer volume, there are many lurkers who read and never post.
I get frequent emails from those who have open minds and are not 'set'
one way or the other. Since I happen to know more about what really goes
in in Scientology than you or 95% of the other androids who have been
brainwashed by the clam-meme, I consider it my duty to bust your chops
from time to time with a dose of reality.

In short, it doesn't matter what you think about what I think Scott.
You're as sold on this NG cult as any Scientologist is on LRH's glorious
wisdom. Sort of like a reverse Scientologist, eh?

Wolf

Wolf

unread,
May 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/20/98
to

Pign...@worldnet.att.net wrote:
>
> Wolf <wolf...@micron.net> writes: >
> >Wow. OSA helicopters. The CofS Enforcement Division spending thousands
> > to follow Mr. Young around. Trash writing. Paranoid ravings of a
> > lunatic. All followed by the applause of harmonious follow up admiration
> > of his fellow brain-washed ARS cultists.
> >
> > The only problem with this little fiction is Young shouldn't count on
> > selling the movie rights, it's a real snoozer. I give it a one popcorn
> > bag rating at best.
> >
> If you'd take the trouble to read what Stacy actually wrote,
> you'd see that Lara thought there were OSA helecoopters out
> there, not that there were.

Sheesh Monica! I know that. You ex-Scientologists don't have much humour
left do you?

>OSA sent their people straight to
> the family's doorstep who had driven all the way to New Orleans
> from Baton Rouge.

So? That's what Ms. Young sez. She was a Scientologist and any good ARS
cultist knows you can't trust one of those devils.

> As the person who organized this whole operation (on the
> exit counseling side, that is) I can tell you that this was
> no fiction. I was there, as were several members of the family
> who are witnesses to Stacy's account, which is 100% accurate.

Nothing is 100% accurate. Stacy reported her experience in such a manner
as to support her view that Scientology is brainwashing. Anything else
she edited out. I assume that's how you handle your stat reports to
Minton as well.

>The
> Swedish reporters were even witnesses to what went on in Washington DC,
> where OSA made total fools of themselves with their harrassment,
> ranting and raving and attempts to disrupt the interview in the
> restaurant.

Okay. If I relied on what someone else (with a vested interest
emotionally and financially) says about an incident then I'd probably
still be making ap's to Flag. The entire story was written from the pov
of victimization. Whether Stacy had any part in inciting or adding heat
to events to build emotion remains to be seen. There ain't no such thing
as a one-sided argument.

> Lara filed a report with the New Orleans Police department stating
> that she was never at any time held against her will. I might add
> that prior to this intervention, the family signed a form stating
> that they agreed to my terms that there was never at tny time to be
> any force used to hold her and that if there was, I would no longer
> agree to be involved.

I'm sure she did. I'm sure you did. It adds depth to the event. CYA.

> The police dept. and the New Orleans DA fortunately didn't share
> your disbelief and were very supportive. The New Orleans Police
> Dept. takes false 911 calls very seriously, since they were falsely
> called out to the family's home on two occasions because of 911 calls
> saying that someone was committing suicide and that someone was being
> held against her will. What the people on ARS are too intelligent
> to take seriously is your trolling.

How do I know that Stacy didn't make the calls? Why shouldn't she? It's
certainly go a long way towards adding credibility to her story of how
horrible the Scientologists are. The whole story is mere drama. Nobody
on ARS really knows what happened. What was the real state of mind of
this Lara, especially in light of her helicopter paranoia? Anybody can
write whatever they want and color it how they please. What I can easily
see is that Stacy is being financed by Minton. She's obliged to make her
boss feel like he's getting his money's worth. Beyond that, nothing else
is what it seems.

Wolf

Wolf

unread,
May 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/20/98
to

john smith wrote:
>
> >> In article <356216...@micron.net>, Wolf <wolf...@micron.net> wrote:

> >Martin... I used to just think you were stupid. Now I think you're
> >really stupid. You need to go back to your starving beans&rice
> >melodrama, it suits you much better. It's much simpler and easier for a
> >weak mind to comprehend that than it is to see that the Lara Wessel
> >story is just another brainwashing. Matters not whether CofS is doing it
> >or some nosey broad from Seattle is - the effects are the same.
> >
> >Wolf
> >
> You mean it takes years for Scientology to brainwash someone, but Stacy can do
> it over the course of dinner? Man, Scientology really IS behind in the Tek
> War...

I'll let you in on the big secret John. Neither CofS nor the busybodies
from Seattle are *brainwashing* anybody. There ain't no war. It's about
as complex as deciding which underwear to buy. Stacy bought Scientology
underwear for years. Now it itches. So instead of just switching brands
she feels compelled to go around 'deprogramming' other purchasers. It's
a curious manifestation of an affluent society. Hell... if Minton is
paying the freight, why not? It's better than getting a real job eh?
Plus it keeps one from the horror of facing the fact that they're the
ones who screwed up.... CofS is the perfect target for shirking
responsibility for ones own wasted years.

Wolf

Zinj

unread,
May 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/20/98
to

In article <199805201133...@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
lilal...@aol.com says...


Just a question and a suggestion:

I'm not sure what Chris means by schmalz; I don't know it as a drink, but
rather pure lard that is used with various ingredients as a spread for on bread
or crackers. Probably the most common type is very simple, with tiny chunks of
onion fried in the schmalz itself. And no, it's not really as disgusting as it
sounds.. but close to it, and very very greasy.. your tongue feels coated long
after you've done eating.

As far as common homophone/spelling mistakes; The AP Stylebook and Libel Manual
is what I've seen most often used by professional reporters/editors, and it's
an excellent and inexpensive paperback usually available in college bookstores.

Most news organizations have their own supplemental additions, but the AP
manual is very thorough. It's also well organized, and is an entertaining
enough read to actually enjoy, unlike most reference books. It'd be nice if
they made an e-version, but I've never heard of one.

Zinj

--
Don't forget - Last Rat off the Ship Goes to Jail


Unit 61

unread,
May 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/20/98
to

Stacy Young wrote:
>
> Scientology is spreading the word far and wide through its Office of
> Special Affairs network that I have gone into the business of forcible
> deprogramming. During the past two weeks, OSA operatives have literally
> stalked me across the country. They have known my travel plans and have met
> my flights at various airports. They've known where I was staying and have
> showed up at my hotel rooms. They have harassed me while I was having
> lunch, and they have interrupted me at dinner to take my photograph.
>
> The amazing thing is what I actually did to cause all of this commotion: I

> sat down with a young scientologist and told her about my own firsthand
> experiences in scientology. I gave her some information. That's all I did.
> After she had received the information, she decided she didn't want to be
> in scientology any more. No force, no violence, no coercion. Just a free
> flow of information. Freedom of choice.
>
> Does this qualify as "deprogramming" at all, much less "forcible
> deprogramming"? I certainly don't think so. Personally, I would describe
> it as a conversation between two adults exercising their rights of free
> speech and free thought. But let me tell you the whole story of what has
> caused OSA to be so afraid of me, and then all of you - scientologists and
> non-scientologists alike - can decide for yourselves.

>
> I've just spent several days in New Orleans with a wonderful family, the
> Wessels. Their 27-year-old daughter Lara was recruited into scientology
> about a year ago, and her family watched with alarm as their loving,
> vivacious daughter's life was gradually enveloped by scientology. She had
> been an aspiring, very talented actress, but once she got into scientology
> she dropped her acting career entirely. The family had been very close,
> but Lara had become distant. All she would talk about was scientology. Her
> family was afraid they were going to lose her forever.
>
> Lara's father Dave has some friends who were peripherally aware of a
> network of people who deal with the cult problem. He contacted several of
> his friends, who put him in contact with Monica Pignotti, an exit
> counselor in New York, and Paul Grosswald, a former scientologist from New
> York. Monica invited me to participate because she knew I had recently
> helped another young woman who had left scientology on her own but had
> been in really bad shape emotionally and psychologically by the time she
> left. I had flown to the east coast to spend some time with her, and I had
> been able to help her and her family simply because I have so much
> information about what goes on and how it works inside.
>
> So, after a long conversation with Lara's father Dave, he asked me to come
> down to New Orleans because he thought I might be able to contribute some
> useful information which Lara could use to make a decision about what she
> wanted to do.
>
> I arrived Tuesday (before Monica and Paul) and spent the evening with all
> of Lara's family - her parents, her sister and her family, her brother and
> his family, her aunt and uncle. It was very heartwarming to see how much
> Lara is loved by these people. She is so lucky to have a family that cares
> about her as much as they do. They had many, many questions for me, and I
> answered them as well as I could. Lara had been home for the New Orleans
> Jazzfest for nearly two weeks, and the whole family had been on pins and
> needles, trying not to antagonize her by showing any negative feelings
> about scientology. It had been exhausting for all of them.
>
> Lara had been vigorously trying to recruit her entire family into
> scientology ever since she'd been home, and everyone had been as polite in
> their refusal as possible. She wanted them all to take courses at the
> Baton Rouge mission, and she was sure that once they did a course they
> would see why she was ready to dedicate the next billion years as a member
> of scientology's elite Sea Organization. As horrified as the family was,
> they had tried hard not to show it. Instead, at every opportunity her
> brother Kris and her Aunt Shirley in particular had asked Lara if she
> would be willing to speak to anyone about another side of the scientology
> story. They told me Lara had said yes, she would. The family all agreed
> Lara had been an independent thinker all her life, and they hoped that
> that strength of hers would enable her to listen to legitimate
> information, even if it was negative about scientology.
>
> But now that the time had come, the family was extremely nervous and
> wanted to make sure they knew what to do. The plan was for her brother
> Kris and her Aunt Shirley, the two people she trusted the most, to take
> Lara out for lunch the next day and tell her that her father had invited
> some people to New Orleans who could give her some new information about
> scientology if she was willing to listen to them. The family was
> particularly worried about this step. What if she got angry and said no?
> What if it drove her further into scientology and made the situation
> worse?
>
> From what they had told me about Lara, it didn't sound like she would
> refuse. She loved her family enough to be willing to listen to another
> side of the story if it was clearly important to them that she do so. It
> also sounded as if she might already have begun to have doubts about her
> involvement. I had not yet met her, but I had the feeling she was quite
> strong-willed, with a mind of her own. I thought there was a good chance
> that Lara would agree to listen to what we had to say.
>
> By the end of the first evening the family was somewhat reassured, having
> realized that there was nothing mysterious in the least about what was
> about to happen. If Lara agreed to talk to us, we would provide her with
> information that she had not had access to as a scientologist, and with
> this information Lara would be in a position to make an informed choice
> about whether or not she wanted to continue her involvement in
> scientology. If she refused to talk to us, we would leave. It was as
> simple as that. But, I told them, I was confident that she would agree,
> perhaps out of a combination of love for her family and curiosity about
> what kind of information we might have.
>
> The next morning Monica and Paul arrived and we all met at the hotel while
> Lara met her brother and aunt for lunch. As the time approached for the
> meeting, we all piled in the car and drove to Lara's parents' house,
> where, we hoped, Lara would soon join us. We made small talk for a while,
> trying not to be nervous, but we all jumped when the phone finally rang.
> It was Lara's brother Kris. She had agreed to meet with us, and they were
> on their way. We all breathed a sigh of relief. The first big step had
> been made!
>
> Kris, Shirley and Lara arrived within a few minutes. Lara came right up
> to me, shook my hand, and said cordially, "Hi, I'm Lara. Nice to meet
> you." She did the same with Monica and Paul.
>
> I asked her if she was nervous, and she said, "Yes, I guess I am a little
> bit, but I'm interested in what you have to say. Let's get started."
>
> We began by introducing ourselves and telling Lara briefly about each of
> our histories in scientology. Monica had been in for six years, and she
> had been with Hubbard on the ship. Paul had only been in for six months,
> but he had joined the Sea Org in New York, where Lara had also joined, so
> they had had similar experiences and knew some of the same people. I had
> been in for fifteen years, at the Advanced Organization in Los Angeles and
> later in the Guardian's Office, Author Services, Inc., and the Office of
> Special Affairs.
>
> Monica and Paul told her about some of their experiences, and Lara's
> response was pretty much to say, "OK, but that kind of thing can happen
> anywhere. No organization is perfect. It doesn't change the fact that
> scientology helps a lot of people."
>
> I said, "That's true, and I used to feel exactly the same way. But I
> experienced some things that finally forced me to re-evaluate my
> relationship with scientology. I'd like to share those experiences with
> you so that you have a clear picture of the kind of organization you're
> involved in."
>
> Lara shrugged. "OK," she said. "I'm willing to hear what you have to say."
>
> I spent about 45 minutes telling her about some of the experiences I had
> in scientology. I told her that during all the years I was in scientology
> I had always believed that if I could only move high enough up in the
> ranks I would find scientology being practiced the way I thought it should
> be, based on the policies I had read. But then I got all the way to the
> top of the hierarchy, working directly with David Miscavige, and
> discovered that, if anything, it was worse all the way at the top than it
> had been lower down in the ranks. I told her about some of the things I
> saw Miscavige do to staff, some of the things he ordered me to do to staff
> which I refused to do, and I told her what happened that led me to refuse
> to work with him at all, for which I was sent to the RPF.
>
> When I was finished with my story, Lara decided she didn't want to be part
> of a group in which people were abused the way I was, and the way other
> people were that I described. That was literally all that happened. She
> was given some information that she had not had previously. Monica and
> Paul also gave her information, not only about their own experiences in
> scientology but also about mind control and how it works. And that was the
> extent of what happened that caused Lara Wessel to decide she no longer
> wanted to be a scientologist.
>
> Lara made her decision on Wednesday evening, May 6, the very first day we
> talked to her. The next day, Thursday, we were all over at her sister's
> house watching some videos of shows about scientology and mind control
> when her father arrived with the news that two scientologists had showed
> up at his house looking for Lara. He told them she had gone out of town
> for a few days, thinking that would cause them to go away. Of course, as
> we would soon find out, this just fueled their paranoia that Lara was
> being "forcibly deprogrammed."
>
> Thursday evening Lara's aunt surprised us all with tickets to the New
> Orleans symphony. The music was wonderful and we all enjoyed ourselves
> immensely, particularly Lara, who commented on how happy she was to have
> her life back. After the program we were supposed to meet Lara's brother
> and his wife for dinner. But when Lara called him he told her an
> incredible story.
>
> The New Orleans police and an ambulance had arrived at their parents'
> house, all lights flashing. The police had received an anonymous phone
> call that someone was committing suicide inside the house. No one was home
> (since we were all at the symphony) so the police gained entry to the house
> and searched it. Finding no one, they finally left.
>
> We had warned the Wessels that scientology would not believe Lara had
> decided on her own to leave scientology, that they would believe she had
> been coerced or forced in some way to leave. But even we were
> flabbergasted that scientology was going this far. Lara and her father
> went down to the police station and both made statements about what was
> happening. Lara made it clear in her statement that she had spoken to us
> of her own free will, that she had not been coerced in any way, and that
> she had decided to leave scientology based purely on the information she
> had received.
>
> We all thought that would be the end of it, but we were wrong. The next
> night, Friday night, Monica, Paul and I headed back to our hotel and Lara
> and her parents all went to bed by 10:30. At about 11:30 Lara was awakened
> by flashing lights shining through her bedroom window and the doorbell
> ringing repeatedly. She was afraid it was an OSA helicopter coming to get
> her and she ran upstairs to her parents' room for protection. She woke her
> father, who went downstairs and discovered several police officers at the
> front door.
>
> The police said they had received an anonymous call that someone was being
> held against their will in the house and they wanted to come in and check
> it out. Lara's father said they were welcome to come in but said he
> thought he knew what this was all about and explained to them about what
> had been happening with Lara and scientology. Then he called Lara, who
> came upstairs in her pajamas and told the police she was not being held
> against her will, she loved her parents and was very glad they had helped
> her get out of scientology. The police by now were angry about being
> manipulated by scientology, and one of the officers told Lara's father
> that if he had any more trouble from scientology he would see that the
> offenders were arrested.
>
> By now the entire Wessel family was astonished and alarmed at what
> scientology was doing. Certainly Lara was seeing a side of scientology
> that she had never seen before. We explained to them that it is literally
> impossible for a scientologist to accept the fact that someone might make
> an informed choice to leave scientology. A scientologist firmly believes
> that the only way someone in Lara's position would leave scientology would
> be if they were forced to do so by being handcuffed, gagged and held
> against their will. So these people who were orchestrating all of these
> incidents truly believed they were trying to help Lara escape from the
> clutches of evil forcible deprogrammers. The family just shook their heads
> in amazement.
>
> Saturday Monica and Paul left, and Lara and I had a relaxing day. We had
> lunch at the House of Blues and she showed me a little bit of New Orleans.
> Then we headed back to my hotel room so she could watch a couple of videos
> that she hadn't had a chance to see yet. About 8:30 that night there was a

> loud knocking at my hotel room door. I opened it and there stood two
> heavy-set women, looking very serious. One of them pushed past me and
> elbowed her way through the doorway, saying, "We're here to see Lara
> Wessel. Where is she?"
>
> Lara and I looked at each other in disbelief. More scientologists! Not
> wanting to be rude, I invited the women into the room and introduced Lara
> and myself. The two women looked surprised at my invitation but they came
> into the room, obviously uncomfortable. I asked them their names. "Mary,"
> the dark-haired woman said. "Tracy," said the blond one. "No last names?"
> I asked. Tracy said, "You don't need to know our last names."
>
> I invited them to sit down on the bed, which they did, and we all sat
> around chatting for quite a long time. Lara told them what had happened -
> that she had gotten information about scientology that she hadn't had
> before and based on that information, she had decided she would rather not
> be involved in it. This was completely unacceptable to Mary and Tracy.
> Didn't Lara realize that everything someone like me would tell her was a
> lie? Lara told them she didn't think any of us had lied to her, and she
> urged them to get the same information themselves. "I don't want to hear
> her lies," Tracy said in disgust.

>
> I was able to find out that they were both public scientologists on lines
> at the Baton Rouge Mission. I explained to them that at their echelon they
> wouldn't know about the kinds of experiences I had at the upper echelons
> of scientology management, and that much of what I had seen had caused me
> to realize scientology was not what I had thought it was.

>
> Tracy turned to Lara and, incredibly, said, "But look, what if you were a
> Catholic and you found out the Pope was banging some nun at a convent?
> That wouldn't keep you from being a devout Catholic and having the
> benefits of Catholicism, would it? Well, it doesn't matter what's going on
> in scientology management. You can still have wins and get up the Bridge
> to Total Freedom. What difference does it make to you and your life what
> management is doing?"
>
> Lara and I were both speechless for a moment at this candid outburst. I
> recovered first and said, "Tracy, as a devout Catholic, wouldn't you feel
> some responsibility for at least making it known to the Pope that you
> didn't approve of his conduct? Wouldn't you feel it was awfully
> hypocritical of the Pope to bang this nun while insisting that all the
> Catholics in the world respect the sanctity of marriage? I personally felt
> that if the leadership of scientology was as corrupt as I discovered them
> to be, I couldn't condone their behavior by continuing to be a
> scientologist."
>
> Tracy obviously felt she had made a blunder with her analogy of the Pope
> and the nun. She tried to change the subject back to my lack of
> credibility, but Lara interrupted her.
>
> "I don't think you realize," Lara said, "that you aren't the only ones who
> have been to see me and my family." She detailed all of the events of the
> past several days, including the police and the flashing lights, the
> sirens, being awakened at nearly midnight, how it had really frightened
> her and her family. "At this point I have to tell you that you're
> inadvertently involving yourselves in a pattern of harassment and invasion
> of my and my family's privacy."
>
> At this the two women glanced at each other uneasily, and then they both
> stood up.
>
> "It was very kind of you to invite us into your room," Tracy said. "I
> think it's time for us to be going now."
>
> Mary asked if we would be willing to watch a video with their side of the
> story. We both said absolutely, we would watch it. She said she'd get it
> to us, and then they left.
>
> The next morning it was time to say goodbye. It was a sad parting, because
> Lara and I had gotten to be good friends. But we promised to get together
> again soon.
>
> A production crew for a Swedish TV station had asked me to meet them in
> Washington, D.C., for an interview, so I caught a plane to D.C. The New
> Orleans trip had been emotionally draining for me. Settling into my seat
> on the plane, I was suddenly exhausted. I looked forward to a relaxing
> evening at my hotel.
>
> But this was not to be. When I got off the plane in D.C., I saw Sylvia
> Stanard from OSA's D.C. Office of Public Affairs walking toward me. Sylvia
> and I have known each other since the late 1970s.
>
> "Sylvia!" I said as she approached me. "What are you doing meeting me at
> the airport?"
>
> "Well," she replied, "I hear you're in the business of forcible
> deprogrammings now, Stacy. I just want to make sure you aren't planning to
> kidnap any of my staff."
>
> I could see that she was dead serious, and I couldn't believe it.
>
> "What are you doing in D.C. if you're not here to deprogram someone?" she
> asked me. I told her I was there to be interviewed for Swedish TV, but she
> didn't believe me.
>
> "Why would they want to interview you? You don't know anything about the
> situation in Sweden," she said, eyeing me skeptically. "No, that's not
> what you're here for."
>
> I tried to tell her that all I had done in New Orleans was to give Lara
> information with which she then made her own decision. But it soon became
> clear to me that Sylvia was not going to believe me no matter what I said.
> In her mind, I was now a forcible deprogrammer and that was that.
>
> Then she changed the subject. She wanted to know what happened that got me
> out of scientology, so I invited her to ride with me to my hotel. I told
> her the whole story of Vaughn getting beaten up by Norman Starkey, and how
> Marion Dendiu, then the Org Officer at ASI, had taken Vaughn to her office
> and assigned him lower conditions for upsetting Norman so badly that he
> lost his temper.
>
> But Sylvia clearly thought I was lying to her. By the time we got to my
> hotel room she was back to worrying that I was going to kidnap her staff
> and deprogram them.
>
> "Stacy," she said, "I want you to look me straight in the eye and promise
> me that you won't kidnap anyone while you're here."
>
> I got so exasperated with her that I called Lara and asked her to tell
> Sylvia herself what had happened in New Orleans. Sylvia and Lara chatted
> for about fifteen minutes, while I unpacked my suitcase. Sylvia seemed
> surprised that I didn't mind her talking to Lara, but my feeling was, why
> not? Maybe something either Lara or I said to Sylvia might get through to
> her and get her thinking. There is always that hope.
>
> Sylvia and I parted cordially that evening, and Sylvia said she'd like to
> get together with me while I was in D.C. I said that sounded fine. But as
> it turned out, it was not to be.
>
> The next day I met Joachim and Phillip, the Swedish TV crew. They filmed
> an interview with me in the lobby of the Renaissance Hotel, and afterwards
> we sat in the hotel restaurant for lunch. Soon after we ordered, Sue
> Taylor and Alex Jones from OSA DC appeared at our table and began
> harassing us. Phillip picked up his camera and began filming the whole
> thing, of course. I was amazed that Sue was so rude to Joachim even though
> she knew she was being filmed and that it would appear on national
> television in Sweden.
>
> We finally persuaded them to leave so we could eat lunch, but ten minutes
> later Sue, Alex and Sylvia all came back to our table. They were totally
> in our face and it was impossible to eat our lunch. I excused myself and
> went and asked hotel security to escort them out as they were harassing
> us. I returned to the table and sat down, and pretty soon security arrived
> and said quietly to Sue Taylor, "If you don't leave immediately on your
> own, I will have to help you leave," whereupon they all filed out of the
> hotel.
>
> Bob Minton had to come down to D.C. on other business, and I had never
> actually met Arnie Lerma in person, so Bob took us both out on Tuesday
> evening for a nice dinner so we could finally meet each other. We were
> having a wonderful time when suddenly Matt Baraschi, one of OSA's more
> boorish operatives, appeared at our table and began snapping photos of us.
> It was incredibly offensive. I got up and convinced Matt to sit down next
> to Bob so I could take their photo together. He handed me his camera, and
> I immediately handed it to the maitre d', who turned around and took it
> into the kitchen to dispose of it. Matt jumped up and ran after him into
> the kitchen, creating an unbelievable scene in the restaurant. He soon
> emerged with his camera and stormed out, after accusing me of theft.
>
> Finally my trip was at an end. All of the confrontation with the
> scientologists had been exhausting for me. I fell asleep as soon as the
> plane took off and didn't wake up until the pilot announced we were about
> to land in Seattle. I was really looking forward to getting home and
> relaxing. I walked off the plane and into the terminal. The first person I
> saw was Vaughn, and the next thing I knew Ann Ruble, the DSA Seattle, was
> coming between Vaughn and me so that it was impossible for me to say hello
> to him. She had a man with her named Larry something -- I missed his last
> name. I guess I shouldn't have been surprised, but I was. I couldn't
> believe they were there. Now I realized that I was virtually being stalked
> all the way across the country. They knew what flights I was on; they knew
> what hotels I was staying at, even what hotel rooms. It was unnerving to
> realize I was being watched so closely by these people.
>
> "Stacy," Ann said, "Sylvia called me and said you promised her you would
> call her and let her know before you deprogrammed any of her staff in D.C.
> I just want you to promise me the same thing here in Seattle."
>
> These people had caught Vaughn off guard. He hadn't realized they were
> scientologists at first, but when he did, it made him furious. He wanted
> to call airport security and have them escorted out. I convinced him to
> let me speak to Ann for a few minutes but she was actually quite rude and
> was clearly there only to harass me and try to frighten me.
>
> She said, "Stacy, you know who Rick Ross is, don't you? You don't want the
> same thing to happen to you here in Washington, do you?"
>
> Vaughn heard this and asked her if she was the one who supervised the
> leafleting of the town of Vashon with hate literature about us, or if she
> was the one who ordered our dog kidnapped and beaten almost to death. She
> denied any knowledge of those things, and even denied knowing who private
> investigator David Lee is.
>
> In fact, it is possible that she really hasn't been in charge the
> harassment we have been subjected to, and that she hasn't been kept
> informed other than what she has read in the local newspaper. It has
> probably all been run directly from Los Angeles. I don't think Ann would
> have the stomach for the dirty tricks they've run on us, certainly I don't
> think she would condone torturing our dog Mac. She is basically a caring
> person who thinks she is helping people by her involvement in scientology.
> She is just a dupe.
>
> Lara Wessel, in the meantime, is thrilled to have her life back. She is
> looking forward to getting her acting career back on track. She is happy
> to be able to have all of her old friends back. She is educating herself
> about mind control so she won't ever be taken in again. She is greatly
> relieved to be in control of her own thoughts again.
>
> After this experience it is more clear to me than ever that freedom of
> speech and freedom of thought are the mortal enemies of totalitarianism.
> No wonder scientology is out to destroy the Internet. No totalitarian
> system of government can survive the free flow of information. No wonder
> scientology is so afraid that one of their members might sit down and have
> a conversation with me. God forbid a scientologist gains access to
> information that is not under the control of the organization. God forbid
> scientologists begin to exercise their inalienable rights of free speech,
> free thought and free association.

Unit 61

unread,
May 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/20/98
to

Pign...@worldnet.att.net wrote:
snip

> The police dept. and the New Orleans DA fortunately didn't share
> your disbelief and were very supportive. The New Orleans Police
> Dept. takes false 911 calls very seriously, since they were falsely
> called out to the family's home on two occasions because of 911 calls
> saying that someone was committing suicide and that someone was being
> held against her will. What the people on ARS are too intelligent
> to take seriously is your trolling.
>

> Monica Pignotti

I hope they file obstructing charges against those who contributed
to these false reports. At the very least the credibility of
the people, and their ORGanization, has gone down the tubes
with law enforcement in that city.

Another classic example of shooting yourself in the foot.

Keep it up by the way. Then the rest of the world dosen't
have to work so hard at exposing $cientology.

John

Alan Furman

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May 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/20/98
to

In article <6jun04$9...@freenet-news.carleton.ca>,

Scott A. McClare <cj...@freenet.carleton.ca> wrote:

>Wolf <wolf...@micron.net> writes:
>
>>Wow. OSA helicopters. The CofS Enforcement Division spending thousands
>> to follow Mr. Young around. Trash writing. Paranoid ravings of a
>> lunatic. All followed by the applause of harmonious follow up admiration
>> of his fellow brain-washed ARS cultists.

Whereas L.Ron Hubbard merely claimed to have dodged a freight locomotive
on Venus.

>ONE of the people Stacy was writing ABOUT was worried about "OSA
>helicopters," and you use THAT as an excuse to "discredit" the entire
>story.


--
====al...@aimnet.com * LPC * LPUSA * ISIL * IOS * KoX * Netscab Squealer====
LEGALIZE FREEDOM >>>> http://www.lp.org * UBI LIBERTAS IBI PATRIA

When you say "Bill Clinton," you've said a mouthful.

Pign...@worldnet.att.net

unread,
May 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/20/98
to

Wolf <wolf...@micron.net> writes: > john smith wrote:
> >
> I'll let you in on the big secret John. Neither CofS nor the busybodies
> from Seattle are *brainwashing* anybody. There ain't no war. It's about
> as complex as deciding which underwear to buy. Stacy bought Scientology
> underwear for years. Now it itches. So instead of just switching brands
> she feels compelled to go around 'deprogramming' other purchasers. It's
> a curious manifestation of an affluent society. Hell... if Minton is
> paying the freight, why not? It's better than getting a real job eh?
> Plus it keeps one from the horror of facing the fact that they're the
> ones who screwed up.... CofS is the perfect target for shirking
> responsibility for ones own wasted years.

You are even more clueless than I thought. Minton had nothing to
do with this. It was the family who made all the arrangements
because they wanted their daughter back. You really ought to get
the facts before you make these ridiculous assumptions. Stacy is taking
responsibility by helping people so they don't have to go through
what she did, but then you obviously know nothing about the kind of
genuine compassion and caring for people that Stacy practices on
a regular basis that you obviosly lack any capacity for.

Monica Pignotti


Wolf

unread,
May 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/20/98
to

Dave Bird---St Hippo of Augustine wrote:
>
> In article <35627A...@micron.net>, Wolf <wolf...@micron.net> writes

> >Martin... I used to just think you were stupid.
>

> And you think we set any store by your opinion?

Wow Dave... you finally dropped the *glug-glug meme* on your sig line.
What happened? Last time I saw your pic on the net you were doing your
best Michael Moorcock impression and hauling around a toy doggie.

William Barwell

unread,
May 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/20/98
to

In article <35625B...@micron.net>, Wolf <wolf...@micron.net> wrote:
>LilAlex742 wrote:

>>
>> Wolfy writes:
>>
>> >Wow. OSA helicopters. The CofS Enforcement Division spending thousands
>> >to follow Mr. Young around.
>>
>> Okay. Your snide AND you can't read. Is that it?
>>
>> LilAlex
>
>Aw c'mon LilAlex... I'm justing having fun at the expense of anyone
>dense enough to write such schmaltz and even more fun at the expense of
>those who blather acceptance of it as if spoken from the very mouth of
>God.
>

You're wasting electrons again.....


*Plonk*

Pope Charles
SubGenius Pope Of Houston
Slack!


Xenubat (Sue M.)

unread,
May 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/20/98
to

On Tue, 19 May 1998 21:08:28 GMT, st...@ptinet.net (Stacy Young)
wrote:

[snip excellent post]

I've webbed this post at:

http://www.primenet.com/~xenubat/oneless.html


Sue (SP4)
--
http://www.primenet.com/~xenubat

Starshadow

unread,
May 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/20/98
to

In article <35631F...@micron.net>, wolf...@micron.net says...
Unlike you, Wolfie, most people have the freedom to change what they post
at will. You being a cult apologist probably don't understand this.

But don't worry, Duke, your doggie friend with waterwings, still seems
to show up at pickets regularly. I think you can find him if you try.
There's room for him, and a bridge to total madness, and even a gerbil
wheel to freedom!


--
Bright Blessings,


Starshadow SP4, Granny Dyke

Wolf

unread,
May 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/20/98
to

Pign...@worldnet.att.net wrote:

> You are even more clueless than I thought.

I don't even think it's a contest Monica. It was you, Stacey and Vaughn
that were blind enuf to get sucked into that whole GO/SO hogwash for so
many years. Now that your mental vapor-lock of decades has unjammed you
want to go around accusing CofS of brainwashing? It must be easier to do
that than face the fact that you were unobservant enough to buy into the
whole program to start with.

> You really ought to get
> the facts before you make these ridiculous assumptions.

Facts are not a requirement on ARS.

> Stacy is taking
> responsibility by helping people so they don't have to go through
> what she did,

'Taking responsibility'? You sound like a Scientologist. Hell, Stacey
didn't have to go through what she did. Last time I looked all you have
to do to cross a state line in America is cross it. When I left
Scientology I simply left. It was amazing. No armed OSA agents. No dead
dogs. No harrassment. No 911 calls. Why do you think that is? Especially
after 20 years, 17 on staff, Cl VIII and a high profile? Maybe it's
because I didn't immediatly starting suing them or bleating that they
were all criminals who took advantage of me. This ain't rocket science
Monica, it's just paying attention to basic human nature. You wanna
fight? They'll give it to you. And you, of all people, ought to know
that.

> but then you obviously know nothing about the kind of
> genuine compassion and caring for people that Stacy practices on
> a regular basis that you obviosly lack any capacity for.

Could be. Whatever name you give it, it's still hype, drama and
grandstanding. Same shit the SO and GO members used to do, rushing
around with stern looks on their face, hurrying off on death-defying
missions to 'rescue' those less fortunate than them. This is no more
than SO style activism without the braid and LRH orders.

Anyway, good luck. And be careful. Stick your nose in the wrong place
and you'll end up doing time like Artie did. Not everybody appreciates
your sacred mission. Someone might eventually find it as offensive as
what the SO does and file charges.

Wolf

p.s. FWIW, I said just such things to HK Henson prior to his little
problem. Why is it you people, especially you ex-SO and GO types,
consistently underestimate the CofS?

Wolf

unread,
May 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/20/98
to

Ceon Ramon wrote:
>
> In article <356216...@micron.net>, Wolf <wolf...@micron.net> wrote:
> >Wow. OSA helicopters. The CofS Enforcement Division spending thousands
> >to follow Mr. Young around. Trash writing. Paranoid ravings of a
> >lunatic. All followed by the applause of harmonious follow up admiration
> >of his fellow brain-washed ARS cultists.
> >
> >The only problem with this little fiction is Young shouldn't count on
> >selling the movie rights, it's a real snoozer. I give it a one popcorn
> >bag rating at best.
>
> Heh! You wish. It's the stuff Movie of the Week is made of.

There's no accounting for some people's tastes. Personally I think it
should have some car chases, explosions and a good shoot-out or two.

Wolf

Chris Sutor

unread,
May 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/20/98
to

LilAlex742 (lilal...@aol.com) spake thusly:
: Wolfy points out:

: >And I can read, you can't spell... 'your' is a possesive, 'you're' is a


: >contraction of 'you are'. Duh... I year ago I didn't know what
: >super-literate was and now I are one!

: Caught me. Sorry. I do understand grammar, by the way. I am, however,
: dyslexic, and often make similar blunders. I used to have real problems with
: mixing up the letters D, P, and B, along with rearranging syllables.

As a person with a similar affliction, I can appreciate the problem. My
big blunder seems to be rearranging certain letter pairs. The 'gh' in
words like through, or the 'ng' in any word ending in 'ing'... thank
goodness for the delete key. The faster I type, the more likely I'll make
those kinds of blunders.

The really weird part is that sometimes I'll pause in my typing, thinking
I just made a typo, because a word didn't feel right when I typed it, but
I'll discover that the combination of the typo, and the dyslexia wound up
making me spell the word correctly, anyway.

: Now, my


: mistakes are generally limited to the kind of homophone faux pa you pointed out
: above. For some reason, its easy for me to find mistakes when proofing on
: paper, and a little more difficult on the computer screen.

Same. I've fixed my copy of Microsoft word to look for my commoner


mistakes though, which can come in handy. I seem to blow it on the same
words all the time.

: Also, the


: informality of a newsgroup tends to make me lax. I do try, but I've got faulty
: wiring, and things sometimes come out wrong.

Informality? I sometimes write better on Usenet, than on my own home WP.
Probably because I know the only person reading that will be me, and
there's always the spell checker.

(snip)


: PS I like schmaltz.

I don't. Too much foam and the can's a pain to open. I'll take a box o'
YooHoo instead, any day.


: LilAlex


--
COBALTatTIGERDENdotCOM I'd really like a New World Order, but
----==============---- I can only afford a slightly used one.
now with 10% real *****************************************
fruit juice! Don't blame me, I voted for Richard Dangerous

Keith Henson

unread,
May 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/21/98
to

Wolf (wolf...@micron.net) wrote:

snip

: There's no accounting for some people's tastes. Personally I think it


: should have some car chases, explosions and a good shoot-out or two.

Well, I manage to get in a car chase and lose (*)'s hired goons, *someone*
blew up a car recently, and we always have the possibility of a shootout
with those 300 asault rifles Andre Tabayoyon bought for the troops at
Hemet. Keith Henson


Pimoty

unread,
May 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/21/98
to

Wolf: I don't even think it's a contest Monica. It was you, Stacey and Vaughn

that were blind enuf to get sucked into that whole GO/SO hogwash for so many
years. Now that your mental vapor-lock of decades has unjammed you want to go
around accusing CofS of brainwashing? >>

What else did you describe above ?

Wolf: It must be easier to do that than face the fact that you were unobservant


enough to buy into the whole program to start with.>>

As they said, brainwashing is not mutually exclusive with your statements.

Wolf: Facts are not a requirement on ARS.>>

You must have been taking examples of scientologists here ? But in general ARS
is based on facts. A fact you cannot ignore.
For additional info:
http://www.xenu.net
http://www.entheta.net


JimDBB

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May 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/21/98
to

>Subject: Re: One less scientologist in the world
>From: Wolf <wolf...@micron.net>
>Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 18:33 EDT

>I don't even think it's a contest Monica. It was you, Stacey and Vaughn
>that were blind enuf to get sucked into that whole GO/SO hogwash for so
>many years. Now that your mental vapor-lock of decades has unjammed you

>want to go around accusing CofS of brainwashing? It must be easier to do


>that than face the fact that you were unobservant enough to buy into the
>whole program to start with.

>Taking responsibility'? You sound like a Scientologist. Hell, Stacey
>didn't have to go through what she did. Last time I looked all you have
>to do to cross a state line in America is cross it. When I left
>Scientology I simply left. It was amazing. No armed OSA agents. No dead
>dogs. No harrassment. No 911 calls. Why do you think that is? Especially
>after 20 years, 17 on staff, Cl VIII and a high profile? Maybe it's
>because I didn't immediatly starting suing them or bleating that they
>were all criminals who took advantage of me. This ain't rocket science
>Monica, it's just paying attention to basic human nature. You wanna
>fight? They'll give it to you. And you, of all people, ought to know
>that.

>Could be. Whatever name you give it, it's still hype, drama and
>grandstanding. Same shit the SO and GO members used to do, rushing
>around with stern looks on their face, hurrying off on death-defying
>missions to 'rescue' those less fortunate than them. This is no more
>than SO style activism without the braid and LRH orders.

>Wolf

I must say that Wolfie does make some good points. Some people, for years,
were very much an active part of the evil empire then, suddenly, they see the
light and shortly after are noisily saving the world from what they were an
instrumental part of
of. This is fine except for the fact that it took them an awful long time to
wake up. But it didn't take them very long to get in the fight to destroy the
evil empire. Wolfie, you have said quite succinctly, a few things that
needed to be said.

JimDBB

Wolf

unread,
May 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/21/98
to

Starshadow wrote:
>
> In article <3562F8...@micron.net>, wolf...@micron.net says...

> > I'll let you in on the big secret John. Neither CofS nor the busybodies
> > from Seattle are *brainwashing* anybody. There ain't no war. It's about
> > as complex as deciding which underwear to buy. Stacy bought Scientology
> > underwear for years. Now it itches.
>

> Lisa McPherson's killed her. Musta been some itching powder.

You know Starshadow, if indeed SO members were responsible for
McPherson's death (and IMO certain individuls were), then they ought to
be prosecuted. I've never attempted to conceal my distaste for the SO.
But no matter what the facts are of McPherson, the acts of isolated
individuals don't automatically make Scientology a killer cult. Why am I
explaing this to you? You're not displaying any ability to
differentiate...

> Yeah, there is a war, but you are already one of the losers. Sit tight,
> Wolf, and yap away. Scratch when your space fleas itch,

Don't got any... I'm a NOTS completion :~D.

> and keep on
> yapping about ars being a cult and all critics being bigots,

Did I say 'all' critics? Oops. What I meant what lots of critics. But
only the ones that have had their minds melded in the ARS cult-meme.

> and
> demonstrating what superior beings you culties really are. Really,
> blather on, do. You are such a good illustration of what Scientology does
> to a mind.

Hmmmm. Pay attention. I'm supposed to be known as the cold and
calculating ex-Scientologist around here. The one who sold bunches of
the stuff and isn't even begging forgiveness from you guys.



> So instead of just switching brands
> > she feels compelled to go around 'deprogramming' other purchasers.
>

> Yap, yap "deprogramming" yap yap.

Erlich already did the 'yap, yap' thing back in 95... before he got his
ass drug through the legal grinder.

> It's
> > a curious manifestation of an affluent society. Hell... if Minton is
> > paying the freight, why not? It's better than getting a real job eh?
> > Plus it keeps one from the horror of facing the fact that they're the
> > ones who screwed up.... CofS is the perfect target for shirking
> > responsibility for ones own wasted years.
>

> And your excuse is?

Me? I don't have any wasted years. I'm one of those fortunate people who
learned early in life that spitting in the wind ain't healthy.

> Keep on with the raving, Wolf. I'm sure that plenty of lurkers get a
> real education. At least the ones that talk to me in email tell me they
> do.

Well by golly I hope so! Diversity of opinion is grand ain't it?

Wolf

Wolf

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May 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/21/98
to

Alan Furman wrote:
>
> In article <6jun04$9...@freenet-news.carleton.ca>,
> Scott A. McClare <cj...@freenet.carleton.ca> wrote:
>
> >Wolf <wolf...@micron.net> writes:
> >
> >>Wow. OSA helicopters. The CofS Enforcement Division spending thousands
> >> to follow Mr. Young around. Trash writing. Paranoid ravings of a
> >> lunatic. All followed by the applause of harmonious follow up admiration
> >> of his fellow brain-washed ARS cultists.
>
> Whereas L.Ron Hubbard merely claimed to have dodged a freight locomotive
> on Venus.

Pretty cool huh? Do you believe people actually bought into that shit?
Hell, old Stacey and Vaughn got snagged by that hook for years! But, on
a more serious note... Hubbard's imagination and your opinion of it
isn't an explaination of what mental state some you lady in Louisiana
was in to fear OSA helicopters in the first place. Throwing that into
the thread is the equivalent of yelling, "Yeah! Well, well, my dad can
beat up your dad."

> >ONE of the people Stacy was writing ABOUT was worried about "OSA
> >helicopters," and you use THAT as an excuse to "discredit" the entire
> >story.

Serious answer? The entire story is written with the intent of
supporting the need for 'deprogramming' in the first place. As a
news-type story it's not even up to tabloid standards. In short, it's a
spin piece written by Stacey to justify and validate her actions.
Nothing but assumptions and accusations. No hard data. No supporting
evidence regarding 911 calls. Sketchy detail on the dinner
confrontation, etc., etc.

> When you say "Bill Clinton," you've said a mouthful.

Good sig. At least we can agree on something other than CofS.

Wolf

Wolf

unread,
May 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/21/98
to

LOL! That's what I like about you Henson. Never a boring minute. Add to
that, you're just about the only ARS critic who I do believe. Now if
you'd quit wasting your time with those dreary pickets and write a book
instead, the 75K would be mere pocket change. You got my $25 when it
comes out.

Wolf

Keith Henson

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May 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/21/98
to

Wolf (wolf...@micron.net) wrote:

snip

: But no matter what the facts are of McPherson, the acts of isolated


: individuals don't automatically make Scientology a killer cult.

I agree with you Wolf, it does not *automatically* make scn a killer cult.

What *does* make scientology a "killer cult" is that these deaths result
from scientology's official *policy* on how to treat people with
psychological or medical problems (even if all of the introspection
rundown, purif, and NOTs deaths are unintentional).

Besides Lisa, I know of two similar applications of the isolation rundown
which avoided being fatal only through luck. Some people think there are
hundreds of such cases, but these cases have been covered up as much as
scientology could manage. Even the Lisa McPherson case only came to light
because of the web and Jeff Jacobson.

And, no matter how much the upper management of scientology gets its nose
rubbed in the fact that isolation is a dangerous treatment for psychotic
people, they are mentally frozen into Hubbard think and can not change the
policy Hubbard laid down.

Keith Henson

Rebecca Hartong

unread,
May 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/21/98
to

Wolf wrote in message <3563D2...@micron.net>...

>You know Starshadow, if indeed SO members were responsible for
>McPherson's death (and IMO certain individuls were), then they ought to
>be prosecuted. I've never attempted to conceal my distaste for the SO.

>But no matter what the facts are of McPherson, the acts of isolated
>individuals don't automatically make Scientology a killer cult.

Not automatically, no. I agree that the greatest blame for Lisa McPherson's
death probably ought to fall on the individuals who were charged with caring
for her. However, I also think there is merit to the argument that the
Introspection Rundown is a potentially dangerous procedure, that the CoS
requires of its members complete and unquestioning obedience to 100%
Standard Tech, and that these two factors contributed greatly to the
treatment (rather, lack of treatment) that Lisa McPherson received. In that
sense, it's not completely unfair to lay at least part of the blame for
McPherson's death on the CoS itself.
---------------------------------
Rebecca Hartong
http://www.erols.com/hartong

Eric Bohlman

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May 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/21/98
to

JimDBB <jim...@aol.com> wrote:
: I must say that Wolfie does make some good points. Some people, for years,
: were very much an active part of the evil empire then, suddenly, they see the
: light and shortly after are noisily saving the world from what they were an
: instrumental part of
: of. This is fine except for the fact that it took them an awful long time to
: wake up. But it didn't take them very long to get in the fight to destroy the
: evil empire. Wolfie, you have said quite succinctly, a few things that
: needed to be said.

What you describe is really just another form of the "zeal of the
convert." I think it's a way of resolving the cognitive dissonance that
results from suddenly walking away from something that's been an
important part of one's life for a long time. It can lead people to
obnoxious behavior at times (such as the just-quit smoker getting "in
your face" with smokers) or even atrocities (such as the revolutionary
regime that executes anyone who had even the most tenuous ties to the old
regime), but in itself it's not necessarily a bad thing.


Nico Garcia

unread,
May 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/21/98
to

Beautiful job, Stacy. Stay cool and calm and telling the truth
even to the people who lie about you, exactly as you've been doing.

I am wearing a *BIG* grin at your handling of this.
--
Nico Garcia
ra...@tiac.net
<PGP is obviously a good idea: look at who objects to it.>

Dave Bird---St Hippo of Augustine

unread,
May 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/21/98
to

In art<3563D2...@micron.net>, Wolf <wolf...@micron.net> writes:
>Starshadow wrote:
>>
>> In article <3562F8...@micron.net>, wolf...@micron.net says...
>
>> > I'll let you in on the big secret John. Neither CofS nor the busybodies
>> > from Seattle are *brainwashing* anybody. There ain't no war. It's about
>> > as complex as deciding which underwear to buy. Stacy bought Scientology
>> > underwear for years. Now it itches.
>>
>> Lisa McPherson's killed her. Musta been some itching powder.
>
>You know Starshadow, if indeed SO members were responsible for
>McPherson's death (and IMO certain individuls were), then they ought to
>be prosecuted. I've never attempted to conceal my distaste for the SO.
>But no matter what the facts are of McPherson, the acts of isolated
>individuals don't automatically make Scientology a killer cult.

Bollocks. It wasn't "rogue individuals." It was PER POLICY AND TECH,
to the letter, not to release her for medical treatment if that might
include psychiatric elements, but to use the Introspection Rundown---
even done by people who didn't have the knowledge of **physical**
medicine to handle a patient who's not taking proper food and
fluids (word clear "glucose drip").

In art<hkhenson...@netcom.com>, Keith Henson writes:
>What *does* make scientology a "killer cult" is that these deaths result
>from scientology's official *policy* on how to treat people with
>psychological or medical problems (even if all of the introspection
>rundown, purif, and NOTs deaths are unintentional).

--

<__"-$ <__" <__" <__"
:_ : : :_

''''''''._____'-_....'"...-------''''''_ <__'
'. $CIENTOLOGY: ..''--- :.
; _ . . . - '''

'

Dave Bird---St Hippo of Augustine

unread,
May 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/21/98
to

In article <35631F...@micron.net>, Wolf writes:
>> And you think we set any store by your opinion?
>
>Wow Dave... you finally dropped the *glug-glug meme* on your sig line.
>What happened? Last time I saw your pic on the net you were doing your
>best Michael Moorcock impression and hauling around a toy doggie.
>
>> --
>> <__"-$ <__" <__" <__"
>> :_ :_ :_ :_
>> -------------------------------- <__'
>> '. $CIENTOLOGY: ...__''--- :.
>> ; . ''''''''
>> . . ' ': ': ':
>> : .' the bridge to .~~>~~> ~~>
>> :.' total madness ~~> ~~>

I've read Moorcock's books but I don't know anything about him and
toy dogs. I've still got "Duke"; I recently took him for walkies
around Saint Hill itself. But I like the idea of $cientology as
"the bridge to total madness", and a bunch of crazy clams paying
money to go up(?) a bridge to nowhere and falling off the end.
$cientology: that's a very long word. We know a song about that........

>SONG: "LITTLE GHOSTIES" (to the tune of "Little Arrows").
>=========================================================
>
> There was a man called Hubbard who was nutty as could be
> He suffered from co-caine bugs though he thought them spirit fleas
> He said "I'll make a buck from this in any way I can"
> So he packaged up and sold them in a multi-level-scam, as
> li---ttle---
> ghosties up your nostrils little ghosties up your ass
> he called them body thay-tans and said they had mental mass
> learn from Ron pa-ra-si-TOH-sis in a "being-crazy" class
> cross the bridge to total madness for a quarter million cash
>
> But still for all his auditing he had those spirit fleas
> So he went to david Mayo and they wrote the N--Oh--Tees:
> Ask your questions of a ragdoll, though the mugwump holds the cans
> If they don't go on the drug roundown then use your thaytan hand, on
> li--ttle
> ghosties up your nostrils little ghosties up your ass
> he called them body thay-tans and said they had mental mass
> learn from Ron pa-ra-si-TOH-sis in a "being-crazy" class
> cross the bridge to total madness for a quarter million cash
>
> One day death came for Ron Hubbard as it must come for all men
> And no amount of auditing will change the hou-r when,
> He lost his mind compeletely as he waited for the grave
> Though they jabbed his bum with vistaril he still would rant&rave, of
> li--ttle
> ghosties up his nostrils little ghosties up his ass
> he called them body thay-tans and said they had mental mass
> learn from Ron pa-ra-si-TOH-sis in a "being-crazy" class
> cross the bridge to total madness for a quarter million cash


|~/ |~/
~~|;'^';-._.-;'^';-._.-;'^';-._.-;'^';-._.-;||';-._.-;'^';||_.-;'^'0-|~~
P | Woof Woof, Glug Glug ||____________|| 0 | P
O | Who Drowned the Judge's Dog? | . . . . . . . '----. 0 | O
O | answers on *---|_______________ @__o0 | O
L |{a href="news:alt.religion.scientology"}{/a}_____________|/_______| L
and{a href="http://www.xemu.demon.co.uk/clam/lynx/q0.html"}{/a}XemuSP4(:)


Martin Hunt

unread,
May 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/21/98
to

In article <6k2gs0$b...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>,
<Pign...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

>Jim DBB wrote:
>
>> I must say that Wolfie does make some good points. Some people, for years,
>> were very much an active part of the evil empire then, suddenly, they see
>> the
>> light and shortly after are noisily saving the world from what they were an
>> instrumental part of
>> of. This is fine except for the fact that it took them an awful long time to
>> wake up. But it didn't take them very long to get in the fight to destroy
>> the
>> evil empire. Wolfie, you have said quite succinctly, a few things that
>> needed to be said.
>

>In all the years you spent with CAN, didn't you learn anything about
>understanding cults and how they operate to hold their members?
>From reading this response of yours,apparently not.
>You are as clueless as Wolfie. How sad for you. If you didn't learn
>after all the resources you have had available to you, then there's
>not much else I can say to you.
>
>Monica Pignotti

Monica, Jim has made me angry before with his bizarre rants, but
I've never doubted until today that he could have made a good
telephone counsellor for the old CAN, helping people with their
cult-related problems.

I'm no longer of that opinion. Comments like "This is fine except
for the fact that it took them an awful long time to wake up." show
that he is totally unsuited to this kind of work.

"Wolfie, you have said quite succinctly, a few things that

needed to be said." <puke>

--
Cogito, ergo sum. http://www.ncf.carleton.ca/~av282/
"It's wonderful to be out!! 2 PM Thursday is now just another hour
on the clock..." - One (Ex-)Scio.


.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

Pign...@worldnet.att.net

unread,
May 22, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/22/98
to

One Scio

unread,
May 22, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/22/98
to

>
>Pign...@worldnet.att.net wrote:
>
>> You are even more clueless than I thought.
>
>I don't even think it's a contest Monica. It was you, Stacey and Vaughn
>that were blind enuf to get sucked into that whole GO/SO hogwash for so
>many years. Now that your mental vapor-lock of decades has unjammed you
>want to go around accusing CofS of brainwashing? It must be easier to do
>that than face the fact that you were unobservant enough to buy into the
>whole program to start with.
>
>> You really ought to get
>> the facts before you make these ridiculous assumptions.
>
>Facts are not a requirement on ARS.
>
>> Stacy is taking
>> responsibility by helping people so they don't have to go through
>> what she did,
>
>'Taking responsibility'? You sound like a Scientologist. Hell, Stacey

>didn't have to go through what she did. Last time I looked all you have
>to do to cross a state line in America is cross it. When I left
>Scientology I simply left. It was amazing. No armed OSA agents. No dead
>dogs. No harrassment. No 911 calls. Why do you think that is? Especially
>after 20 years, 17 on staff, Cl VIII and a high profile? Maybe it's
>because I didn't immediatly starting suing them or bleating that they
>were all criminals who took advantage of me. This ain't rocket science
>Monica, it's just paying attention to basic human nature. You wanna
>fight? They'll give it to you. And you, of all people, ought to know
>that.
>
>> but then you obviously know nothing about the kind of
>> genuine compassion and caring for people that Stacy practices on
>> a regular basis that you obviosly lack any capacity for.
>
>Could be. Whatever name you give it, it's still hype, drama and
>grandstanding. Same shit the SO and GO members used to do, rushing
>around with stern looks on their face, hurrying off on death-defying
>missions to 'rescue' those less fortunate than them. This is no more
>than SO style activism without the braid and LRH orders.
>
>Anyway, good luck. And be careful. Stick your nose in the wrong place
>and you'll end up doing time like Artie did. Not everybody appreciates
>your sacred mission. Someone might eventually find it as offensive as
>what the SO does and file charges.
>
>Wolf
>
>p.s. FWIW, I said just such things to HK Henson prior to his little
>problem. Why is it you people, especially you ex-SO and GO types,
>consistently underestimate the CofS?
>
>

Wolf, I knew Lara at the CLO EUS. She was the leader of all of us on the EPF. I
was only there for several days before routing out of the CLO and planning to
go to the FLB to do my EPF and be posted in the SO later in the year. I next
saw her at a Scientology conference, last month. We had both routed out of the
CLO and were publics , though both of us had definite plans to go back to the
SO, as we were both EPFers when we left.

I didn't know Lara was out until I talked to Stacy over the phone about getting
out. She told me about her exit counselling in New Orleans and I remembered my
EPF I/C from the CLO, the woman with whom I shared my fears about how my
parents would react to my SO contract, because she was dealing with the same
thing. We were both at the CLO, and I know why she was afraid of OSA
helicopters, Wolf. If I was exit counselled on my way out, I would be
too--because Scientology will go almost that far to stop exit counseling. I
simply decided to leave after only a short while in Scn, after seeing the
truth. The truth about Scientology, as you know, is *scary*. The truth aboiut
OSA is *scary*.

I don't have anywhere near your history or certs, but I've been gone for two
days, have been called repeatedly by the Ethics Officer and the DSA, told to
speak to no other Scientologists, and threatened with a declare. People like
Stacy and Monica don't "stick their noses in the wrong place[s]", they save
people from a life of destruction. It is people like Stacy and Monica who have
supported me on my way out. I don't think I would have had the courage
otherwise.

If we know of injustice, if we know of tragedy, we have to stop it. We can't
allow people to go blindly into groups like Scientology, and be part of that
world. That's what this ng is all about--spreading the truth to save the future
public who don't know the decayed reality of the CoS. That's what people like
Stacy and Monica do--help to spread the truth through their presence and
actions, spreading the truth vocally, wherever needed. Stacy helped Lara
through exit counseling, and she helped me by talking to me on the phone. It
set both of us free from Scientology.

And I, for one, am extremely grateful that they and the others are out there
speaking out, despite the OSA attacks and harassment. They're out there and
they're freeing beings.

One (Ex-)Scio

JimDBB

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May 22, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/22/98
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>>Subject: Re: One less scientologist in the world
>From: <Pign...@worldnet.att.net>
>Date: Thu, May 21, 1998 20:28 EDT

>Jim DBB wrote:

>> I must say that Wolfie does make some good points. Some people, for
>years,
>> were very much an active part of the evil empire then, suddenly, they see
>the
>> light and shortly after are noisily saving the world from what they were an
>> instrumental part of
>> of. This is fine except for the fact that it took them an awful long time
>to
>> wake up. But it didn't take them very long to get in the fight to destroy
>the
>> evil empire. Wolfie, you have said quite succinctly, a few things that
>> needed to be said.

Monica Pignotti wrote:

>In all the years you spent with CAN, didn't you learn anything about
>understanding cults and how they operate to hold their members?
>From reading this response of yours,apparently not.
>You are as clueless as Wolfie. How sad for you. If you didn't learn
>after all the resources you have had available to you, then there's
>not much else I can say to you.

I know very well how cults operate as I was in the scientology cult for a
number of years. But I was never a staff fanatic working for the GO/OSA. When
I left, I left as Wolf has described his leaving...I just left. It did take
some time for me to deprogramm myself and I am somewhat suspect of persons who
were hard core fanatics in the cult, then they leave and a week later they are
active exit counselors and cult experts. You don't need to feel sad for me as
I'm doing ok and I haven't asked you to say anything else to me. I have helped
a number of people with varying cult problems. I have done it my own way and I
haven't charged anyone $10,000. I haven't charged anyone a dime.

JimDBB

JimDBB

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May 22, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/22/98
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>>Subject: Re: One less scientologist in the world
>From: mar...@islandnet.com (Martin Hunt)
>Date: Thu, May 21, 1998 21:36 EDT

>Monica, Jim has made me angry before with his bizarre rants, but
>I've never doubted until today that he could have made a good
>telephone counsellor for the old CAN, helping people with their
>cult-related problems.
>
>I'm no longer of that opinion. Comments like "This is fine except
>for the fact that it took them an awful long time to wake up." show
>that he is totally unsuited to this kind of work.

Martin Hunt

As a matter of fact, I was quite a good phone counselor for CAN. And I have
many letters stating that I was helpful to a number of difficult cult
situations. And to this day people contact me for information or some kind of
assistance. but I don't have to defend my work. I was there and I have done
it...as far as I can tell the bulk of your involvment has been typing here on
the net. If I am wrong on this, you can correct this perception.

JimDBB

Zinj

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May 22, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/22/98
to

One.. you're doing it good.

It's a pleasure to have you here because you seem to be an articulate and
informed person making a very personal decision to leave a cult that has
consistently proven it's ulterior motives.

Congratulations.

I do think honestly that it's more important for you to sit and become
yourself for a bit. I don't mean in not attacking scientology.. or maybe I do
in a bit.

I think you have met friends who don't want anything from you.. and have seen
another group (not a cult or anti-cult but a group) of people who are very
good, intelligent and caring people.

In scientology it's very important to become very 'at cause' in anything you
do.

Luckilly that isn't the case in the ARSCC.. our only computer database of
suppressives is kept on a single-sided disk on a commodore 64.

As much fun as baiting the cult is.. (and I admit to finding that a major
advantage of being a critic) I think for a bit you should kick back, talk to
friends and enjoy being for now.. just you.

I'm very worried about the scientology fetish as to being 'at cause'.

Hehe.. I'm not trying to scare you off Onescio.. (don't you need a new nick?)

but I am trying to say.. flipping from being in to being against avoids the
emotional connotation that belonging to a cult means.

As much fun as it is to do what is a necessary thing.. I'd strongly recommend
talking to Stacey.. who has had to do with a lot of people coming out.

We jokers and degraders are hopefully a continued source of humor and horror
to you.. but I think you need to first take a break before you begin poking
the heaving carcass of #cientology with sticks.

Just a suggestion One.. a serious one..
I don't think you can go from a cult to an anti-cult without some time with
yourself.

Have fun.. and think for yourself.. I'm sure you will

Zinj

In article <199805220227...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, one...@aol.com
says...

--
Don't forget - Last Rat off the Ship Goes to Jail


Pimoty

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May 22, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/22/98
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Keith Henson: I agree with you Wolf, it does not *automatically* make scn a
killer cult.

What *does* make scientology a "killer cult" is that these deaths result from


scientology's official *policy* on how to treat people with psychological or
medical problems (even if all of the introspection rundown, purif, and NOTs
deaths are unintentional).>>


Exactly. I could not have said it better. Thanks Keith.

WESFAGER

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May 22, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/22/98
to

Thank you for this posting Stacy. I have picketed the DC
church a few times now and have met all the DC officers
who recently harrassed you. For the most part they have
treated me courteously, under the circumstances, so I'm
disappoinited to hear about the other side of their
personality. I'll be sure to speak with each one of them at
my next picket, and underscore to them, that it is the treatment
that they give to people like you that is bringing more and more
critics into the fray. Furthermore, I'll be asking them whether
my tax dollars are being used to help their church spy on you and other people
who do not agree with them. Is there anyway we can get a copy of the video of
Sue Taylor openingly harrassing you in DC?

I was moved by the testimonial you gave at CAN two years ago. I'm very proud
of you and Vaughn. Thanks again for
your posting.
Wes Fager
Oakton, Virginia

Martin Hunt

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May 22, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/22/98
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In article <199805220305...@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
jim...@aol.com (JimDBB) wrote:

>Martin Hunt
>
>As a matter of fact, I was quite a good phone counselor for CAN. And I have
>many letters stating that I was helpful to a number of difficult cult
>situations. And to this day people contact me for information or some kind of
>assistance. but I don't have to defend my work. I was there and I have done
>it...as far as I can tell the bulk of your involvment has been typing here on
>the net. If I am wrong on this, you can correct this perception.
>
>JimDBB

I have helped people with Scientology both on and off the net,
but hardly consider myself qualified to counsel people, and
tell them so up front before offering what advice I can. I take
it you do feel yourself so qualified. I don't share your faith.
Your remarks about cult members were both insensitive and
ignorant. I found them personally insulting as an ex-scientologist,
and I would recommend that people stay away from you and try
someone who has some sympathy for their plight and shows some
compassion, qualities you seem to lack. Above all, I would
recommend that people seek out someone who knows what they
are talking about. The post you made, the post in question
that Monica responded to, shows that you are lacking in all
these qualities, and have little but derision and insults to
offer cult victims.

Above all, you seem to have an elevated estimation of your own
talents, and appear to be more interested in racking up some
kind of "score" rather than merely helping people as best
you can. What little faith I had in you has evaporated, and
I'm afraid I cannot refer people in need to you to be exposed
to your supercilious and demeaning attitude. If your comments
in the post referenced where you expressed your agreement with
"Wolf" were merely a brain-fart, now would be a good time to
apologize to all the people you insulted.

Martin Hunt

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May 22, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/22/98
to

In article <199805220252...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
jim...@aol.com (JimDBB) wrote:

>I know very well how cults operate as I was in the scientology cult for a
>number of years. But I was never a staff fanatic working for the GO/OSA.

Right, you're better than that, right? You're a piece of shit
like the rest of us, but you insist on floating a little higher
in the cesspool, is that it?

I dunno about this. In what way were "staff fanatics" worse people
than you were? Were they just more abused, or were they simply
worse human beings?

>When
>I left, I left as Wolf has described his leaving...I just left.

So you're better than people who are counselled out? But you
still got sucked in; that must smart. How could a smart cookie
like you get sucked into a cult, anyway? Is it just that you
weren't as good as those who walk right on by? Maybe there's
a heirarchy of turds, each layer floating above the next.
Hubbard's at the top; he was never sucked into any cult.
He must be a superiour being.

>It did take
>some time for me to deprogramm myself and I am somewhat suspect of persons who
>were hard core fanatics in the cult, then they leave and a week later they are
>active exit counselors and cult experts.

Yeah, unlike you, right? Jesus, Jim, you sure are a jerk.

>You don't need to feel sad for me as
>I'm doing ok and I haven't asked you to say anything else to me.

Well, that's nice to hear. You're all together, I guess. You're a
very stable person, no doubt. A veritable rock. Except for your
insane obsessive rants about Mormonism. I wish I hadn't cancelled
all those flames of your nutty posts, now. :-)

>I have helped
>a number of people with varying cult problems.

I'll let them be the judge of that.

>I have done it my own way

Just like LRH.

>and I haven't charged anyone $10,000. I haven't charged anyone a dime.

They got what they paid for. Seriously, Jim, you appear to have
a lot of unsettled issues about Scientology. If I were you, I'd
work on those first before attempting to help others. "Healer,
heal thyself" sort of stuff.

Hope you get well.

Pign...@worldnet.att.net

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May 22, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/22/98
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wesf...@aol.com (WESFAGER) writes: > Thank you for this posting Stacy. I have picketed the DC
> church a few times now and have met all the DC officers
> who recently harrassed you. For the most part they have
> treated me courteously, under the circumstances, so I'm
> disappoinited to hear about the other side of their
> personality. I'll be sure to speak with each one of them at
> my next picket, and underscore to them, that it is the treatment
> that they give to people like you that is bringing more and more
> critics into the fray. Furthermore, I'll be asking them whether
> my tax dollars are being used to help their church spy on you and other people
> who do not agree with them. Is there anyway we can get a copy of the video of
> Sue Taylor openingly harrassing you in DC?

Say hi to Sue Taylor for me when you picket and send her my warmest
personal regards. She and I go way back. I knew the real Sue
before she became an SO clone and even though her behavior towards
Stacy was horrible, the real Sue is quite different and really
a very decent person. Just shows what being in the SO for
20+ years will do. When I ran into her at the AFF conference
last year I didn't even recognize her she had changed so much.
I never would have figured she would have been one of the ones
who stayed.

Monica Pignotti


Pign...@worldnet.att.net

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May 22, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/22/98
to

mar...@islandnet.com (Martin Hunt) writes: >
>
> They got what they paid for. Seriously, Jim, you appear to have
> a lot of unsettled issues about Scientology. If I were you, I'd
> work on those first before attempting to help others. "Healer,
> heal thyself" sort of stuff.

That's for sure. After reading what I can only describe as
religiously bigoted off-topic ranting and raving against Mormons
and then supporting a cult apologist's ignorant statement, I have to
agree, Wolf is just ignorant about these matters, but Jim has had
plenty of opportunity to educate himself and the fact that he
hasn't shows he has serious unresolved issues. I hope that the
new organization that is replacing the old CAN has the good sense
to have nothing further to do with him or their credibility will
be nill.

Monica Pignotti


Pign...@worldnet.att.net

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May 22, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/22/98
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jim...@aol.com (JimDBB) writes:

> I know very well how cults operate as I was in the scientology cult for a

> number of years. But I was never a staff fanatic working for the GO/OSA. When


> I left, I left as Wolf has described his leaving...I just left. >

>It did take
> some time for me to deprogramm myself and I am somewhat suspect of persons who
> were hard core fanatics in the cult, then they leave and a week later they are

> active exit counselors and cult experts. You don't need to feel sad for me as
> I'm doing ok and I haven't asked you to say anything else to me. I have helped
> a number of people with varying cult problems. I have done it my own way and I


> haven't charged anyone $10,000. I haven't charged anyone a dime.

You make alot of false assumptions. Stacy has been out of Scientology
for nine years now, and I had been out for 12 years before I began
exit counseling. The "fanaticism" you see in others is a projection
of what's obviously still inside of you. I see that you still have the
Scientology mentality that no one deserves to be paid for their work
except for the Cof$, of course. BTW, just to set the record straight,
although she was certainly deserving of financial compensation,
Stacy did not charge that family a dime for her services.

I can only agree with what Martin Hunt said, "heal thyself".

Monica Pignotti


© Anti-Cult ®

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May 22, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/22/98
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On 22 May 1998 10:52:44 GMT.
<Pign...@worldnet.att.net>.
From: AT&T WorldNet Services.
Wrote on the subject: Re: One less scientologist in the world:

Stop being victims for OSA's divide and conquer tactics. At least three
of you have fallen right into that trap now.

------------------------------------------------------------------
"Somebody some day will say 'this is illegal'. By then be sure
the orgs say what is legal or not."
-- L. Ron Hubbard, HCOPL 4 January 1966
------------------------------------------------------------------
***** Body thetans? We don't need no stinking Body Thetans! ******
********** http://www.users.wineasy.se/noname/index.htm **********
*** Public PGP key: http://www.users.wineasy.se/noname/pgp.htm ***
****** The.Galacti...@ThePentagon.com (Anti-Cult) *******
------------------------------------------------------------------
Victimized by the Co$. "Deadfiled" in at least one Org. Seen too
much, heard to much, lived too much. Security Coded hard disks
too much. Have been reading NOTS too much. Having chronic
pneumonia. As Arnold said: I'll be back......
------------------------------------------------------------------

Tommy_sp...@xs.net

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May 22, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/22/98
to

Nico Garcia wrote:
>
> Beautiful job, Stacy. Stay cool and calm and telling the truth
> even to the people who lie about you, exactly as you've been doing.

Absolutely! Always tell the truth to $cienos - per policy, a SP
cannot tell the truth. Therefore, they will make horrible mistakes in
judgement acting on misinformation that they derive from assuming the
opposite of what you say. And they will fall all the sooner.


Tommy
--


"The fact that Scientology or it's members may have done something
illegal
has no bearing on the Keith Henson case."

"I don't make the mistake of mixing my beliefs with reality.."

Keith (Gunbunny) posted to a.r.s.

Zinj

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May 22, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/22/98
to

In article <6k3lds$f...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>, Pign...@worldnet.att.net
says...

It's actually neither here nor there.. Stacy's story about her exit councelling
stands by itself.

I would like to say that I met Stacy when she was down for the LA picket. I'd
read enough of her story and of her own posts to have some idea of who she was.

In general those impressions are enough' most of the people I've met, meaning
most people I've met as opposed to bbsland, are exactly what they seem to be
online.

Stacy was a little different, and it's forced me to read her posts differently.
She is a very (and I mean very) calm and warm person.

If you think you see that in her posts, all I can say is.. multiply it by 3
then you are approaching the truth.

I couldn't imagine anyone better as an exit councellor.
To know that she opposes scientology is probably one of the most powerful
statements against the cult I've seen.

Zinj

JimDBB

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May 22, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/22/98
to

>E>Subject: Re: One less scientologist in the world
>From: <Pign...@worldnet.att.net>
>Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 06:28 EDT

> (Martin Hunt) writes: >

I address this to Monica and Martin Hunt. I must say that I am suprised at the
vehemence of your attacks against me. I would expect this from Gary Scarff but
not from you. Well, Martin maybe but certainly not the thoughtful and
reasoned cult expert, Monica Pignotti.

First of all, I was not attacking Stacy Young and I have nothing against
reasonable fees for cult counseling work. All I said was that I had never
charged anyone for talking with or working with someone with a cult problem. I
don't claim to be a cult expert and this is not my business. I do claim to be
a former scientologist and can offer opinions based on my personal experience.

My involvement with scientology was as a member. I was never a staff fanatic
and I was never involved with scientology's destructive and criminal
activities. Stacy Young was, but now she is a saint and I am a sinner because
I have had the effrontery to offer some personal opinions. Warnings are now
being posted not to have anything to do with me.

I find it odd that it's ok to expose the insane beliefs and criminal activites
of the scientology cult but if one comments on the insane beliefs and
destructive actions of the Mormon cult then it's'religious bigotry' and
'obsessive ranting' on my part.

Someone like Wolf comes along a makes what I feel are some good points and I
comment to that effect and I am immediately attacked. My comments are not just
commented on...I, personally, am attacked and anti-cult organizations are
warned against having anything to do with me. I am very surprised at this, I
must say.

The people that I worked with at CAN know me and who I am and what I do and
what I did. They also know that I perhaps push the envelope edge a bit much at
times but that's me and I am usually quick to recognize my own indiscretions
and to make up for them. But to put you at ease, I am not interested in
involvement with any new organizations which may replace the old CAN. And it's
ok with me for you to send your warnings about me around to any anti-cult
groups.

JImDBB

randf

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May 22, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/22/98
to

Wolf wrote in message <35625B...@micron.net>...
>LilAlex742 wrote:


>>
>> Wolfy writes:
>>
>> >Wow. OSA helicopters. The CofS Enforcement Division spending thousands
>> >to follow Mr. Young around.
>>

>> Okay. Your snide AND you can't read. Is that it?
>>
>> LilAlex
>
>Aw c'mon LilAlex... I'm justing having fun at the expense of anyone
>dense enough to write such schmaltz and even more fun at the expense of
>those who blather acceptance of it as if spoken from the very mouth of
>God.
>
>And I can read, you can't spell... 'your' is a possesive, 'you're' is a
>contraction of 'you are'. Duh... I year ago I didn't know what
>super-literate was and now I are one!
>
>Wolf
>
Don't you get it, you fucking whale defecation, no one outside your money-
hungry, brainwashing, hypocritical, wannabe-a-world-power, tax
evading/racketeering scum-scam gives a rat's ass what a 'super-literate' is!
Hubbard's own English was atrocious, if it could be called English. The Key
to Life course is a crying joke. $5000! HAH!
Fuck you, David Miscavige and your pseudo-religious cult.

Wolf

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May 22, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/22/98
to

For those who have attacked Jim after he posted his response below. This
is a perfect example of the pirhanna-like nature of ARS. I don't see
that Jim is agreeing with me on anything but my assessment of the
motives of folks like the Youngs, Erlich and Pignotti. Just goes to show
that I'm right, ARS is becoming a cult. When one critic doesn't follow
party-line to a tee, he is singled out and attacked.

JimDBB wrote:
>
> >Subject: Re: One less scientologist in the world

> >From: Wolf <wolf...@micron.net>
> >Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 18:33 EDT


>
> >I don't even think it's a contest Monica. It was you, Stacey and Vaughn
> >that were blind enuf to get sucked into that whole GO/SO hogwash for so
> >many years. Now that your mental vapor-lock of decades has unjammed you
> >want to go around accusing CofS of brainwashing? It must be easier to do
> >that than face the fact that you were unobservant enough to buy into the
> >whole program to start with.
>

> >Taking responsibility'? You sound like a Scientologist. Hell, Stacey
> >didn't have to go through what she did. Last time I looked all you have
> >to do to cross a state line in America is cross it. When I left
> >Scientology I simply left. It was amazing. No armed OSA agents. No dead
> >dogs. No harrassment. No 911 calls. Why do you think that is? Especially
> >after 20 years, 17 on staff, Cl VIII and a high profile? Maybe it's
> >because I didn't immediatly starting suing them or bleating that they
> >were all criminals who took advantage of me. This ain't rocket science
> >Monica, it's just paying attention to basic human nature. You wanna
> >fight? They'll give it to you. And you, of all people, ought to know
> >that.
>

> >Could be. Whatever name you give it, it's still hype, drama and
> >grandstanding. Same shit the SO and GO members used to do, rushing
> >around with stern looks on their face, hurrying off on death-defying
> >missions to 'rescue' those less fortunate than them. This is no more
> >than SO style activism without the braid and LRH orders.
>

> >Wolf


>
> I must say that Wolfie does make some good points. Some people, for years,
> were very much an active part of the evil empire then, suddenly, they see the
> light and shortly after are noisily saving the world from what they were an
> instrumental part of

> of. This is fine except for the fact that it took them an awful long time to


> wake up. But it didn't take them very long to get in the fight to destroy the
> evil empire. Wolfie, you have said quite succinctly, a few things that
> needed to be said.
>

> JimDBB

Wolf

unread,
May 22, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/22/98
to

JimDBB wrote:

<snip>

> Monica Pignotti wrote:
>
> >In all the years you spent with CAN, didn't you learn anything about
> >understanding cults and how they operate to hold their members?
> >From reading this response of yours,apparently not.
> >You are as clueless as Wolfie. How sad for you. If you didn't learn
> >after all the resources you have had available to you, then there's
> >not much else I can say to you.
>

> I know very well how cults operate as I was in the scientology cult for a
> number of years. But I was never a staff fanatic working for the GO/OSA. When
> I left, I left as Wolf has described his leaving...I just left. It did take
> some time for me to deprogramm myself and I am somewhat suspect of persons who
> were hard core fanatics in the cult, then they leave and a week later they are
> active exit counselors and cult experts. You don't need to feel sad for me as
> I'm doing ok and I haven't asked you to say anything else to me. I have helped
> a number of people with varying cult problems. I have done it my own way and I
> haven't charged anyone $10,000. I haven't charged anyone a dime.
>

> JimDBB

Seems to me that this is a case of where you look is where you go.
Monica, Stacey and the rest of the saviours aren't looking for the norm
in ex-Scn, they're looking for the troubled few who are convinced enough
of their victimization that the 'extraction' team can stage a recovery,
collect a few bucks and then write reports for ARS.

The difference, as I see it between Jim and myself, is that I never
noticed any difference in how I felt either in or out of Scientology. I
feel good pretty much all the time <wink>. Probably some sort of brain
disorder.....

Wolf


Wolf

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May 22, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/22/98
to

Keith Henson wrote:
>
> Wolf (wolf...@micron.net) wrote:
>
> snip
>
> : But no matter what the facts are of McPherson, the acts of isolated

> : individuals don't automatically make Scientology a killer cult.
>
> I agree with you Wolf, it does not *automatically* make scn a killer cult.
>
> What *does* make scientology a "killer cult" is that these deaths result
> from scientology's official *policy* on how to treat people with
> psychological or medical problems (even if all of the introspection
> rundown, purif, and NOTs deaths are unintentional).

Deaths? I thought we were in agreement that specified individuals at
Flag are suspect in the death (singular) of McPherson?

> Besides Lisa, I know of two similar applications of the isolation rundown
> which avoided being fatal only through luck. Some people think there are
> hundreds of such cases, but these cases have been covered up as much as
> scientology could manage. Even the Lisa McPherson case only came to light
> because of the web and Jeff Jacobson.

It's possible. But that's about all the credence I'd give it. The only
thing I'd caution is to not get so imbedded in your thinking that you
raise a hue and cry every time a member of the CofS passes away or gets
sick. That's as common in CofS as it is in the rest of the world.

> And, no matter how much the upper management of scientology gets its nose
> rubbed in the fact that isolation is a dangerous treatment for psychotic
> people, they are mentally frozen into Hubbard think and can not change the
> policy Hubbard laid down.

FWIW, I too agree that isolation is ignorant and possibly dangerous. I
also agree that such things as the Purif and vitamin regimens are, at
best, pointless. I did the Purif and thought, so what? I'm already a
near perfect physical specimen and all I got out of it was a dislike for
saunas. But I'm not sure campaigning against such practices, especially
when CofS has the religious trump card, is worth the effort. Better to
concentrate on specific instances where SO members _may_ be culpable of
an actual crime.

Wolf

Wolf

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May 22, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/22/98
to

Pimoty wrote:
>
> Wolf: I don't even think it's a contest Monica. It was you, Stacey and Vaughn

> that were blind enuf to get sucked into that whole GO/SO hogwash for so many
> years. Now that your mental vapor-lock of decades has unjammed you want to go
> around accusing CofS of brainwashing? >>
>
> What else did you describe above ?

If you mean me I was never brain-dead enough to join the SO, the GO or,
for that matter, sign any contracts. I used to play poker back in the
late 60's with a bunch of the GO power-freaks. These people were
seriously deluded about the real nature of the world around them. An
amazing collection of talented weirdos: Henning Heldt, Marty Greenburg,
renegade attorney Joel Kreiner and others. We even had an ex-Mafia hit
man hiding out in Scn who regularly played. Guy by the name of Maury
Lerner. This is the quality of leadership many on ARS suck up to.

> Wolf: It must be easier to do that than face the fact that you were unobservant


> enough to buy into the whole program to start with.>>
>

> As they said, brainwashing is not mutually exclusive with your statements.

Bottom line? I personally think I'm way too much an asshole to ever be
brainwashed. Except, of course, if you're talking about lovely ladies,
fast cars, large caliber firearms or the superiority of single-malt
Scotch Whiskey.

> Wolf: Facts are not a requirement on ARS.>>
>
> You must have been taking examples of scientologists here ? But in general ARS
> is based on facts. A fact you cannot ignore.

Read 'em. Some kernels of truth do hide amongst the pages of those sites
and I'll happily note that even some of the ARS mind-melds have retained
their individuality to the point where they can proffer the odd fact or
two. But, facts are not a requirement here.

Wolf

Wolf

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May 22, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/22/98
to

One Scio wrote:

<snip:entire dialog of heroic Stacey rescue effort and avoidance of
helicopters>

> Wolf, I knew Lara at the CLO EUS. She was the leader of all of us on the EPF. I
> was only there for several days before routing out of the CLO and planning to
> go to the FLB to do my EPF and be posted in the SO later in the year. I next
> saw her at a Scientology conference, last month. We had both routed out of the
> CLO and were publics , though both of us had definite plans to go back to the
> SO, as we were both EPFers when we left.

Okay.

> I didn't know Lara was out until I talked to Stacy over the phone about getting
> out. She told me about her exit counselling in New Orleans and I remembered my
> EPF I/C from the CLO, the woman with whom I shared my fears about how my
> parents would react to my SO contract, because she was dealing with the same
> thing. We were both at the CLO, and I know why she was afraid of OSA
> helicopters, Wolf.

Really? Why then, pray tell, was she afraid of OSA helicopters?

>If I was exit counselled on my way out, I would be
> too--because Scientology will go almost that far to stop exit counseling.

I assume this is the helicopter answer.

> I simply decided to leave after only a short while in Scn, after seeing the
> truth. The truth about Scientology, as you know, is *scary*. The truth aboiut
> OSA is *scary*.

It's hard to rationally argue that with you Miss. Since you're convinced
it's scary and you're satisfied that you were a victim of Scientology as
opposed to a self-determined human being who freely chose to join, then
you're going to follow the road you chose and, no doubt, interpret many
normal occurances as proof of your victimization.

> I don't have anywhere near your history or certs, but I've been gone for two
> days, have been called repeatedly by the Ethics Officer and the DSA, told to
> speak to no other Scientologists, and threatened with a declare.

What exactly does 'threatened with a declare' mean to you? More to the
point, if it's a threat, then what are the consequences of you being
declared? After all, you're no longer a member, right? Isn't it sort of
like quitting a job and then having your ex-boss call you up months
later and threaten you with a pay cut?

> People like
> Stacy and Monica don't "stick their noses in the wrong place[s]", they save
> people from a life of destruction. It is people like Stacy and Monica who have
> supported me on my way out. I don't think I would have had the courage
> otherwise.

Really? I'm confused. Or perhaps you are. If Stacey and Monica were
enthusiastic members of the Orgs you fear (and they certainly were, for
many, many years) then why don't you fear them? They were just two of
the folks who built the evil empire you now are quaking in fear of.



> If we know of injustice, if we know of tragedy, we have to stop it. We can't
> allow people to go blindly into groups like Scientology, and be part of that
> world.

Who *allowed* you to join? Shouldn't you be blaming them?

> That's what this ng is all about--spreading the truth to save the future
> public who don't know the decayed reality of the CoS. That's what people like
> Stacy and Monica do--help to spread the truth through their presence and
> actions, spreading the truth vocally, wherever needed. Stacy helped Lara
> through exit counseling, and she helped me by talking to me on the phone. It
> set both of us free from Scientology.

I don't mean to sound heartless, but doesn't your statement here seem...
well... just a little like you enjoy the role of victim?

> And I, for one, am extremely grateful that they and the others are out there
> speaking out, despite the OSA attacks and harassment. They're out there and
> they're freeing beings.

Seems to me the easiest thing would have been to change your phone
number and look through the peephole before you answered the door.
Otherwise, I'd suspect you're maintaining just enough contact with your
tormenters to ensure that they are continually reminded to torment you.
Stacey and Monica can help keep your name alive for the SO and OSA
too... they know very well how to get the attention they desire.

Good luck. Be careful who you pick as friends.

Wolf

Wolf

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May 22, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/22/98
to

Rebecca Hartong wrote:
>
> Wolf wrote in message <3563D2...@micron.net>...

>
> >You know Starshadow, if indeed SO members were responsible for
> >McPherson's death (and IMO certain individuls were), then they ought to
> >be prosecuted. I've never attempted to conceal my distaste for the SO.
> >But no matter what the facts are of McPherson, the acts of isolated
> >individuals don't automatically make Scientology a killer cult.
>
> Not automatically, no. I agree that the greatest blame for Lisa McPherson's
> death probably ought to fall on the individuals who were charged with caring
> for her. However, I also think there is merit to the argument that the
> Introspection Rundown is a potentially dangerous procedure, that the CoS
> requires of its members complete and unquestioning obedience to 100%
> Standard Tech, and that these two factors contributed greatly to the
> treatment (rather, lack of treatment) that Lisa McPherson received. In that
> sense, it's not completely unfair to lay at least part of the blame for
> McPherson's death on the CoS itself.

First things first. Assuming that you have the upper hand because you
believe SO members _may_ be responsible, is short-sighted. Telling the
world that CofS is a threat because it's members are dogmatic isn't
going to get the Church in trouble either. I also think it's going to be
a tough sell to convince those you may want to convince (some authority
somewhere?) that, even if several members are convicted, that the entire
Church, it's management and it's world-wide operations are now guilty by
association. I don't think you'd buy into that if it was any group other
than Scientology.

Another way of looking at it might be the case of Ralph Nader and the
Corvair. That the Corvair was, in some cases, unsafe didn't condemn the
entirety of GM. Nor did it make the mngmnt and it's employees killers.
Nor did it make Chevy owners guilty by association of approving of
mayhem on the highways. The fact is, many cars were unsafe, at least by
todays standards. What Nader did accomplish though was focus. He focused
attention on the potential of harm through attacking the Corvair. Cars
are now safer. Your kids are safer. The world turns. But nothing, no
car, no ideology, no medical practice is ever going to be perfectly safe
or meet with the approval of everybody.

Could Lisa McPherson be Scientology's Corvair? I think it's possible.

Wolf

Wolf

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May 22, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/22/98
to

Dave Bird---St Hippo of Augustine wrote:
>
> In article <35631F...@micron.net>, Wolf writes:
> >> And you think we set any store by your opinion?
> >
> >Wow Dave... you finally dropped the *glug-glug meme* on your sig line.
> >What happened? Last time I saw your pic on the net you were doing your
> >best Michael Moorcock impression and hauling around a toy doggie.

> I've read Moorcock's books but I don't know anything about him and


> toy dogs. I've still got "Duke"; I recently took him for walkies
> around Saint Hill itself. But I like the idea of $cientology as
> "the bridge to total madness", and a bunch of crazy clams paying
> money to go up(?) a bridge to nowhere and falling off the end.
> $cientology: that's a very long word. We know a song about that........

Check out Moorcock's photo on the inside leaf of any of his recent
books. You'll see what I mean. I'm glad you like your little toy doggie.

Wolf

JimDBB

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May 22, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/22/98
to

>>Subject: Re: One less scientologist in the world
>From: zinj...@inreach.com (Zinj)
>Date: Thu, May 21, 1998 23:27 EDT

>As much fun as baiting the cult is.. (and I admit to finding that a major
>advantage of being a critic) I think for a bit you should kick back, talk to
>friends and enjoy being for now.. just you.

>We jokers and degraders are hopefully a continued source of humor and horror

>to you.. but I think you need to first take a break before you begin poking
>the heaving carcass of #cientology with sticks.
>
>Just a suggestion One.. a serious one..
>I don't think you can go from a cult to an anti-cult without some time with
>yourself.

>Zinj

Very good advice, Zinj, and well put. But you may not want to hear this from
me as certain ARSers are now posting warnings about me.

JImDBB

Christopher Leithiser

unread,
May 22, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/22/98
to


Or let's talk about another car, the Ford Pinto. Unsafe in rear-end
collisions through faulty design of the gas tank, brought on by a desire
to make the trunk area larger. Management decisions at Ford indicated
that they knew there was a problem, plus a relatively cheap solution--a
plastic spacer to shield the tank from exposed bolts which were
lacerating them, and chose not to implement the fix. There was
apparently a decision made that paying off lawsuits was preferably,
financially, than making the needed changes. The needed changes in the
Introspection Rundown will be more deadly to the Co$, however, as they
include calling in appropriate psychiatric help.

Archangel

unread,
May 22, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/22/98
to

Wolf wrote:
>
[snip]


> Really? I'm confused. Or perhaps you are. If Stacey and Monica were
> enthusiastic members of the Orgs you fear (and they certainly were, for
> many, many years) then why don't you fear them? They were just two of
> the folks who built the evil empire you now are quaking in fear of.

[snip]

> Who *allowed* you to join? Shouldn't you be blaming them?

Wolf, do you really use this kind of logic? I've seen it before in your
posts and also in Russ's and Whipper's. You seem to be denying change.
You seem to be stating:

You are afraid of sea org.
Young was once sea org
therefore, you should be afraid of Young.

However, this is only true if {was sea org -> is sea org}, i.e. if the
past implies the present. You also use it in reverse, using the present
to imply the past, trying to say: if you weren't a victim when you
joined, you can't be a victim now.

Does the CoS really accept this kind of logic? I cna see how they
might, given their emphasis on past events afflicting the present
(engrams and 75,000,000 year old H-bombs being causing you to stub your
toe.)

Archangel

Archangel

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May 22, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/22/98
to

Wolf wrote:
>
> For those who have attacked Jim after he posted his response below. This
> is a perfect example of the pirhanna-like nature of ARS. I don't see
> that Jim is agreeing with me on anything but my assessment of the
> motives of folks like the Youngs, Erlich and Pignotti. Just goes to show
> that I'm right, ARS is becoming a cult. When one critic doesn't follow
> party-line to a tee, he is singled out and attacked.

Or it goes to show that the non-scieno posters have the freedom to
disagree with each other (unlike the cultists, who according to Russ
Shaw, are not suppposed to disagree with each other on a.r.s.).

Jim said something that other people didn't like. Thry were supposed to
ignore it simply because he's a critic? You have an odd concept of
group-think.

Apparently you weren't around to witness the response when Barwell
posted the "LRH was a child molester" bit. You have stated that those
pushing a "party line" are welcomed. Pope Charles did, and he wasn't.

Archangel

Pign...@worldnet.att.net

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May 22, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/22/98
to

Wolf <wolf...@micron.net> writes:
>
> <snip>

> Seems to me that this is a case of where you look is where you go.
> Monica, Stacey and the rest of the saviours aren't looking for the norm
> in ex-Scn, they're looking for the troubled few who are convinced enough
> of their victimization that the 'extraction' team can stage a recovery,
> collect a few bucks and then write reports for ARS.
>
Your view of this whole situation is hopelessly distorted. First of all,
Stacy and I did not seek out this family. You are portraying us as
fanatics that go around seeking out people to talk to and forcing our
views on people. Well, here are the facts which will show that Stacy
and I were not "looking for" anyone.

I was the first person the family contacted and it took me two weeks
to even return their phone call because I was very busy at the time
with another project of mine that had nothing whatsoever to do with
Scientology or cults. Finally,the father called me again, and since
he was very concerned and very persistent, I responded. If I wanted
to be completely selfish and save myself alot of aggravation,
I wouldn't touch any of these cases with a 10-foot pole because believe
me I have many other much more pleasurable and profitable interests, but
my conscience wouldn't allow me to refuse. Every time I go off to pursue
my own interests, I get pulled back into this work because I cannot
say no to those who need my help, knowing that there are so few people
who are qualified to do this work. If it was money I was after
I have many skills and talents that have nothing to do with cults,
which can make me alot more money than any intervention of this sort
ever could.

I can't even begin to tell you how false your portrayal of Stacy
as an agressive fanatic that seeks people out to "deprogram" is.
She got involved in this at first very reluctantly after I called
her and asked her to be involved. She was very humble
about the whole matter. The first thing she asked me is why I thought
she could contribute anything more than Paul and I could bring to
the situation and it took some persuading on my part to convince her
to be involved because I knew that she had a great deal to contribute
beyond what Paul or myself could offer.

And to set the record straight, Stacy did not ask for any financial
compensation for her work, other than to have her expenses (such as
travel and lodging) covered. If someone wants to become wealthy, this
is definitely not the field to be in and I would advise them
to stay away from exit counselling, which is very hard work, risky
and stressful, although it does have its emotional and spiritual
rewards.

And if you think we are a "troubled few" better take a look on the
Operation Clambake website at the long list of people who have been
declared SP by the CofS and that list doesn't even begin to cover
everyone who has left. I'm not even on it.

Monica Pignotti


DeoMorto

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May 22, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/22/98
to

Wolf wrote:
>
> For those who have attacked Jim after he posted his response below. This
> is a perfect example of the pirhanna-like nature of ARS. I don't see
> that Jim is agreeing with me on anything but my assessment of the
> motives of folks like the Youngs, Erlich and Pignotti. Just goes to show
> that I'm right, ARS is becoming a cult. When one critic doesn't follow
> party-line to a tee, he is singled out and attacked.
I see that archangel has also replied to this but I am going to do so anyway
- just because Monica doesn't like what Jim said doesn't make ARS a cult - you
have felt free to express your opinion and to disagree with monica and Stacy in
like fashion. So what?
Are you seriously suggesting that they should not speak out as they please?
You did - why shouldn't they.
I didn't read your assessment of the motives of the Youngs, Erlich et al - I
am sure that you are wonderfully qualified to dissect and analyse the motives
of people and that everyone should just accept your considered and researched
statements and just be quiet about it except for doglike agreement.
I fear that you are overblowing your own abilities.

If you cannot defend your opinions with argumentation and support then maybe
you are in the wrong forum.
"He either fears his fate too much, or his rewards are small, who fears to put
it to the touch, to win -or lose it all""

Pign...@worldnet.att.net

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May 22, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/22/98
to

Wolf <wolf...@micron.net> writes: > One Scio wrote:
>
> Really? I'm confused. Or perhaps you are. If Stacey and Monica were
> enthusiastic members of the Orgs you fear (and they certainly were, for
> many, many years) then why don't you fear them? They were just two of
> the folks who built the evil empire you now are quaking in fear of.

ROFL! That by far is the most absurd statement you have made yet, Wolf.
I really should just let you go on and on because the more you post,
the more blatant it becomes how ignorant you are of the facts.
You really ought to read my bio of my life in Scientology "My Nine Lives
in Scientology" that is up at several websites. If you do a websearch
on my name, you'll find it. If you do bother to read it, you'll see
that I was hardly a mover and shaker or "builder" of this organization.
I was a rebel all the way and spent over a year of my time there on
the RPF. Dennis can tell you what the intern sup had to say about me
years after I left the organization. I was notorious for always
being in trouble and while I was a flag-trained auditor I never had
any rank at all in the SO and I never worked for the GO. I was 17
years old when I first got involved. You just love to make
statements about matters you know nothing about,don't you?

And I also have to add that even people who were major players in
Scientology who left are not the same people once they leave. I
have found the vast majority of them to be kind, compassionate, caring
human beings.

Monica Pignotti


Martin Hunt

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May 22, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/22/98
to

In article <35657c0d...@205.232.34.12>,

The.Galacti...@ThePentagon.com ( Anti-Cult ) wrote:

>Stop being victims for OSA's divide and conquer tactics. At least three
>of you have fallen right into that trap now.

No. Jim said some things which were insulting and ignorant
about ex-Scns, and I replied to that. This has nothing to do
with OSA, and I refuse to "row together" with someone I don't
agree with. Clone-like tight agreement is Scientology; open
and free debate is its antithesis.

DeoMorto

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May 22, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/22/98
to

wolfie desperately opines:>>If you mean me I was never brain-dead enough to

join the SO, the GO or,
for that matter, sign any contracts. I used to play poker back in the
late 60's with a bunch of the GO power-freaks. These people were
seriously deluded about the real nature of the world around them. An
amazing collection of talented weirdos: Henning Heldt, Marty Greenburg,
renegade attorney Joel Kreiner and others. We even had an ex-Mafia hit
man hiding out in Scn who regularly played. Guy by the name of Maury
Lerner. This is the quality of leadership many on ARS suck up to.>>

afaik Heldt and Greenburg are still in the cofs so I doubt sincerely that
they are providing any sort of leadership, quality or otherwise, to ars.
That you played poker with an ex-mafia hitman call Maury Lerner in the 1960's
is related in what way to ars? I am genuinely curious - there is obviously a
connection in your mind and I wonder what it is exactly.
Stacy's story seemed straightforward and factually reported and internally
consistent - she does provide adequate data that can be cross checked with the
local police departments that are named and who log 911 calls. If one were
inclined one could go to the hotel and check the security log as well. Opposed
to that you manage to come up with 30 year old anecdotal evidence that has
significance to you but which has no nternal verifiability.
You seem to see in this some sort of hysteria which is only evident to you -
perhaps a reflection of the hysteria you yourself have?
This may come as a shock to you but it seems logical to me that the most
trenchant and effective and dedicated critics of any belief system would be
those who had been most heavily involved in it in the first place. Why? a) They
have more direct evidence of what the organization has done b) the degree of
revelation is greater - for example finding out that a politician is a liar is
hardly going to shock anyone finding out that the archbishop of canterbury is a
secret terrorist would be immensely shocking - the same for "true beleivers"
when they see through the trick they are far more shocked than someone who was
never folled in the first place.
But that also makes them much more aware of the mindset of others who have
yet to see the parlor trick.
You say you were never "brain dead enough" to join the SO or the GO - so what
motivates people to do so and what motivates people to stay in it for years
must be a complete mystery to you - am I correct?
Then if its a mystery to you why are you spouting opinons about it when- as
you say - you have absolutely no knowledge whereof you speak?

Brain death seems to have caught up with you at last. Must be the cumlative
effects of poker games with ex-mafia hitmen...

Keith Henson

unread,
May 23, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/23/98
to

(snip the works, but this is a reply of sorts to Wolf.)

Wolf, I have very slowly come to a deeper understanding of "human
operating systems." Human operating systems (the executive "programs"
which run on human brains) can be "taken over" to an extent similar to the
way computer operating systems can be taken over by computer viruses.

A classic example (first shown in rats, but also demonstrated in humans)
is the effect you can get from a tiny amount of current in the positive
reinforcement center (formerly known as the pleasure center--renamed after
human subjects said electrical stimulation was irresistible, but did not
have the character of pleasure). Rats will press a lever to get this kind
of stimulation, ignoring food, sex, or anything else till they die.

People vary in this respect, but for something like ten percent of the
population, drugs (including alcohol) are addictive (irresistible) to a
similar (though lesser) extent compared to electrical stimulation. I.e.,
the folks who get hung up on them will do drugs to the total ruin of all
other factors in their lives.

For some fraction of the population (and I can't put much of a number on
it) "cults" have about the same effect as drugs.

You might think about it this way:

1) There is a positive reenforcement area (circuits) in the brain.
Stimulation in this area has an overwhelming effect on modifying behavior
(most often repeating associated behavior).

2) This area can be stimulated directly with electricity.

3) The area may be stimulated indirectly with drugs.

4) The area may be stimulated even more indirectly with endogenous
chemicals, of which endorphins (natural opiates) are an example.

5) Endorphins may be released by activities such as sex, or running or
sensory inputs (such as the rewards you get from holding your newborn).

Down to here what I have said is non controversial, i.e., any psych
graduate in the last ten years would consider this the standard model
(though much simplified). But consider extending it a bit:

Activities in cults, love bombing in the Moonies, auditing in scientology,
etc., are pleasurable, i.e., the activity/attention results in the
release of endorphins and other chemicals into the positive reenforcement
center of the brain. Some people are much more affected (sensitive) than
others-- this likely depends on details involving genetics and individual
wiring patterns in the brain.

For the most affected, scientology is a good value the way heroin is a
good value for an addict.

You might wonder why people would have such vulnerabilities? The short
answer is that these characteristics are side effects of characteristics
which were useful in the environment in which we evolved. You can see how
the pleasures of sex or the pleasure of attention for being a successful
hunter contributed to the success of our ancestors a million years ago.
That environment did not include short cuts to pleasure stimilation such
as alcohol, refined drugs, or cults.

While the last three paragraphs are a speculative extension on what is
accepted, they fit with the rest of the model and tie a number of
observations, such as the similar behavior patterns you see in drug and
cult addiction.

Many, perhaps most, people manage to keep their drug consumptions under
control. Some, perhaps even most, people keep cult involvement from
ruining their lives. A few manage to make good money off of drugs or
cults.

Sound familiar? :-) Keith Henson

Keith Henson

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May 23, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/23/98
to

Wolf (wolf...@micron.net) wrote:

: Keith Henson wrote:
: >
: > Wolf (wolf...@micron.net) wrote:
: >
: > snip
: >
: > : But no matter what the facts are of McPherson, the acts of isolated

: > : individuals don't automatically make Scientology a killer cult.
: >
: > I agree with you Wolf, it does not *automatically* make scn a killer cult.

: >
: > What *does* make scientology a "killer cult" is that these deaths result
: > from scientology's official *policy* on how to treat people with
: > psychological or medical problems (even if all of the introspection
: > rundown, purif, and NOTs deaths are unintentional).

: Deaths? I thought we were in agreement that specified individuals at
: Flag are suspect in the death (singular) of McPherson?

There are a considerable number. While you were gone from the group the
St. Pete paper published quite a list of deaths, most of which could be
associated with various scientology policies, such as talking people out
of taking their seizure medication. Besides the three introspection
(isolation) rundowns, one fatal, two nearly, Roxanne Friend died on NOTs
34 or something similar. There was the recent purif death in Germany, and
another I know about, plus a near thing for Micheal Jackson.

And this does not deal with the many suicides, staring with Susan Meister
and going through Philip Gale.

: > Besides Lisa, I know of two similar applications of the isolation rundown


: > which avoided being fatal only through luck. Some people think there are
: > hundreds of such cases, but these cases have been covered up as much as
: > scientology could manage. Even the Lisa McPherson case only came to light
: > because of the web and Jeff Jacobson.

: It's possible. But that's about all the credence I'd give it. The only

: thing I'd caution is to not get so embedded in your thinking that you


: raise a hue and cry every time a member of the CofS passes away or gets
: sick. That's as common in CofS as it is in the rest of the world.

You are, of course, correct on this point. It is mighty hard to find out
how many of these deaths are associated with secretive scientology
practices--and there are one *heck* of a lot of missing people. I am
reminded that the former head of the Hamberg org is missing, as is Pat
Broeker.

: > And, no matter how much the upper management of scientology gets its nose


: > rubbed in the fact that isolation is a dangerous treatment for psychotic
: > people, they are mentally frozen into Hubbard think and can not change the
: > policy Hubbard laid down.

: FWIW, I too agree that isolation is ignorant and possibly dangerous. I
: also agree that such things as the Purif and vitamin regimens are, at
: best, pointless. I did the Purif and thought, so what? I'm already a
: near perfect physical specimen and all I got out of it was a dislike for
: saunas. But I'm not sure campaigning against such practices, especially
: when CofS has the religious trump card, is worth the effort. Better to
: concentrate on specific instances where SO members _may_ be culpable of
: an actual crime.

Wolf, we may decide to disagree on this point, but I think ignorant and
possibly dangerous practices should be stopped, and if not stopped, at
least people should be informed about what they may be subjected to. I
don't single out religions for this treatment. If ignorant and dangerous
practices were not discouraged, the doctors would still be bleeding
people.

Beside, Lisa is *dead*. The whole point to this exercise is to prevent
more cases like her's. Punishing *individuals* who were involved is not
going to fix the problem which is policy which requires ignorant and
dangerous practices. I would like to think otherwise, but I bet that a
hundred million in damages will not be enough to change policy.

Scientology lacks any effective feedback mechanisms to correct
unacceptable behavior. That means it has to imposed from outside.
Painfully.

Keith Henson


Zinj

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May 23, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/23/98
to

In article <hkhensonE...@netcom.com>, hkhe...@netcom.com says...


You toss out more thoughts than I feel like addressing now.. but one hit me so
I'll address it.

I think that the 'reinforcement center' has an evolutionary 'group dynamic'
button.
Humans are social beings for some evolutionarilly useful reason. Curmudgeons
and hermits are probably deliberate evolutionary controls. Dedicated marxists
and scientologists are restimulated groupthink junkies.

All it takes to make any of us social apes into rondroids is to turn off the
cynic switch.

Isn't playing with brains fun? :)

Tilman Hausherr

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May 23, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/23/98
to

I see people like "Wolf" all the time, but in a different environment:
former east germans who dare to say "The DDR wasn't so bad after all,
because ....". And then come arguments like that the rent was lower, or
whatever. These people now have cable or sattelite TV, VCRs, CD players,
telephone, big cars, (and can say "The government sux" too) all they
didn't have under the communists. But they still dare to say that the
old, communist environment was better. And these are also the people who
are responsible that this government could survive 40 years, because
they did nothing.

Another example is one that I did actually witness - a person I know had
been in a catholic nun school, had a terrible time, etc - and later this
person made jokes about it when together with a former class mate. I
told that person in disgust: "Hey - you have told me often that you were
abused, that they destroyed your childhood, and now you joke about
it???". The answer was that yes, they were mentally abused, but it was
*fun* too.

Some people just can't confront their own past thoughts.

Tilman

Tilman Hausherr

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May 23, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/23/98
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In <hkhensonE...@netcom.com>, hkhe...@netcom.com (Keith Henson)
wrote:

>Activities in cults, love bombing in the Moonies, auditing in scientology,
>etc., are pleasurable, i.e., the activity/attention results in the
>release of endorphins and other chemicals into the positive reenforcement
>center of the brain. Some people are much more affected (sensitive) than
>others-- this likely depends on details involving genetics and individual
>wiring patterns in the brain.
>
>For the most affected, scientology is a good value the way heroin is a
>good value for an addict.

I not only agree, but have said the same in the past, based on
descriptions of former members. They described the results of auditing
like a "high".

Since you can get "high" by information only (you mentioned "holding
your newborn"), it is only logical that you can shape your brain
information so that just listening to Hubbard or reading him.

(And of course, you can also get high by reading a.r.s. :-) )

William Barwell

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May 23, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/23/98
to

In article <3565E528...@aol.com>, Archangel <de1...@aol.com> wrote:
>Wolf wrote:
>>
>> For those who have attacked Jim after he posted his response below. This
>> is a perfect example of the pirhanna-like nature of ARS. I don't see
>> that Jim is agreeing with me on anything but my assessment of the
>> motives of folks like the Youngs, Erlich and Pignotti. Just goes to show
>> that I'm right, ARS is becoming a cult. When one critic doesn't follow
>> party-line to a tee, he is singled out and attacked.
>
>Or it goes to show that the non-scieno posters have the freedom to
>disagree with each other (unlike the cultists, who according to Russ
>Shaw, are not suppposed to disagree with each other on a.r.s.).
>
>Jim said something that other people didn't like. Thry were supposed to
>ignore it simply because he's a critic? You have an odd concept of
>group-think.
>
>Apparently you weren't around to witness the response when Barwell
>posted the "LRH was a child molester" bit. You have stated that those
>pushing a "party line" are welcomed. Pope Charles did, and he wasn't.
>
>Archangel

That was no party line. It was my little dab of gossip and
I as usual, did not particularly care what anybody thought
of my post, critic, clam, friend or foe.

You will note though, that the Black PR and DA attacks from
the clam operatives spewing lies about child molesting, have ceased.
If the clams want to play such games, I can do it too.
I can wallow in the mud as well as any sad sack OSA operative.
Since I am as pure as the driven snow, the clams have no mud
on me.

I posted my news after having sat on it for over a year, for
a specific reason, which I have apparently achieved.

If you think it was some sort of "party line", you are most unobservant.
Think of it as more as my private version infamous Monty Python 16 ton
weight for bad little clam black PR-libel artists.
I just looooove discussing the bizarre aspects of Hubbard's sex life (such
as it was) that might give us clues as to whether this rumor COULD
very well be true or not. The Clams don't. So they don't stir me up any
more with that sort of trash talk.

"If you say bad things about people, you will hear bad things back."
- William S. Burroughs.

Pope Charles
SubGenius Pope Of Houston
Slack!


Dave Bird---St Hippo of Augustine

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May 23, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/23/98
to

In article <3565B5...@micron.net>, Wolf <wolf...@micron.net> writes

>> What *does* make scientology a "killer cult" is that these deaths result
>> from scientology's official *policy* on how to treat people with
>> psychological or medical problems (even if all of the introspection
>> rundown, purif, and NOTs deaths are unintentional).
>
>Deaths? I thought we were in agreement that specified individuals at
>Flag are suspect in the death (singular) of McPherson?

You are in dispute that other deaths have taken place then?

I'm thinking of the suicide under extreme sales pressure
of Patrice Vic in France leading to manslaughter convictions
and the similar suicide of Richard Collins in England.

A number of death have been claimed under NOTs -- primarily
from refarining from competent medical treatmnent of dangerous
illnesses -- I believe Roxanne Friend was one of them.

In article <3565B8...@micron.net>, Wolf <wolf...@micron.net> writes


>First things first. Assuming that you have the upper hand because you
>believe SO members _may_ be responsible, is short-sighted.

No, that CoS members **ARE**, on the basis of the facts admitted
by CoS officials themselves, responsible.

You said Sea Org; I thought they were IIRC ordinary staff members,
or maybe some of them foreign publics on course at FLAG.

|~/ |~/
~~|;'^';-._.-;'^';-._.-;'^';-._.-;'^';-._.-;||';-._.-;'^';||_.-;'^'0-|~~
P | Woof Woof, Glug Glug ||____________|| 0 | P
O | Who Drowned the Judge's Dog? | . . . . . . . '----. 0 | O
O | answers on *---|_______________ @__o0 | O
L |{a href="news:alt.religion.scientology"}{/a}_____________|/_______| L
and{a href="http://www.xemu.demon.co.uk/clam/lynx/q0.html"}{/a}XemuSP4(:)


Keith Henson

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May 23, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/23/98
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Tilman Hausherr (til...@berlin.snafu.de) wrote:
: I see people like "Wolf" all the time, but in a different environment:

snip

: Another example is one that I did actually witness - a person I know had


: been in a catholic nun school, had a terrible time, etc - and later this
: person made jokes about it when together with a former class mate. I
: told that person in disgust: "Hey - you have told me often that you were
: abused, that they destroyed your childhood, and now you joke about
: it???". The answer was that yes, they were mentally abused, but it was
: *fun* too.

: Some people just can't confront their own past thoughts.

So true, Tilman, but it is one heck of a lot more complicated. There
are mechanisms piled on top of mechanisms in the brain, and all of them
tuned up (for reproductive success) in a very different environment.

The fact that humans function as well as they do is a never ending source
of wonder and a tribute to the remarkable flexibility of humans.

Keith Henson

Keith Henson

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May 23, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/23/98
to

Tilman Hausherr (til...@berlin.snafu.de) wrote:
: In <hkhensonE...@netcom.com>, hkhe...@netcom.com (Keith Henson)
: wrote:

<grin> Yep. One bunch getting their rewards from auditing, and the
other from reading a.r.s, picketing and the like. And the poor courts
trying to cope with a courtroom full of both groups. Keith Henson


Nico Garcia

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May 23, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/23/98
to

In article <3565B5...@micron.net>, Wolf <wolf...@micron.net> wrote:

>Deaths? I thought we were in agreement that specified individuals at
>Flag are suspect in the death (singular) of McPherson?

French suicide jumper, found to be manslaughter due to the cult involvement.
Susan Meister, shot in the head. There have certainly been other deaths
than Lisa McPherson caused directly byt the cult.

>It's possible. But that's about all the credence I'd give it. The only

>thing I'd caution is to not get so imbedded in your thinking that you


>raise a hue and cry every time a member of the CofS passes away or gets
>sick. That's as common in CofS as it is in the rest of the world.

True, but it's important to examine the circumstances and look for the truth,
lest the cult successfully hide it, blame it on a reporter interviewing the
victim, or bury that it ever happened. Look at the death of David
Miscavige's mother-in-law: Nobody, but nobody, shoots themselves in the
chest 4 times with a rifle to commit suicide.

>saunas. But I'm not sure campaigning against such practices, especially
>when CofS has the religious trump card, is worth the effort. Better to
>concentrate on specific instances where SO members _may_ be culpable of
>an actual crime.

You don't think that negligence, fraud, and making medical claims in
violation of the FDA agreement are criminal?
--
Nico Garcia
ra...@tiac.net
<PGP is obviously a good idea: look at who objects to it.>

Wolf

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May 23, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/23/98
to

Keith Henson wrote:
>
> (snip the works, but this is a reply of sorts to Wolf.)
>
> Wolf, I have very slowly come to a deeper understanding of "human
> operating systems." Human operating systems (the executive "programs"
> which run on human brains) can be "taken over" to an extent similar to the
> way computer operating systems can be taken over by computer viruses.

You already know we're both in agreement here - at least in principle.

<snip>


> Rats will press a lever to get this kind
> of stimulation, ignoring food, sex, or anything else till they die.

This is where we divurge in thinking. Not that rats will do such things,
but that any direct comparison can really be made to humans, especially
in explaining cults.

<snip>


> the folks who get hung up on them will do drugs to the total ruin of all
> other factors in their lives.
> For some fraction of the population (and I can't put much of a number on
> it) "cults" have about the same effect as drugs.

The reason I contest this theory is that (from what I've read) lab
animals will uniformly react in identical fashion to identical
stimulation. People don't. That some 'appear' to isn't explained by lab
animals.

<snip electrical/drug/endorphin examples>

> Down to here what I have said is non controversial, i.e., any psych
> graduate in the last ten years would consider this the standard model
> (though much simplified). But consider extending it a bit:

> Activities in cults, love bombing in the Moonies, auditing in scientology,
> etc., are pleasurable, i.e., the activity/attention results in the
> release of endorphins and other chemicals into the positive reenforcement
> center of the brain. Some people are much more affected (sensitive) than
> others-- this likely depends on details involving genetics and individual
> wiring patterns in the brain.

So long as you're convinced (as I understand you to be) that all human
experience, reaction and action are brain-driven this makes sense. You
know my views and history well enough to know I am not so convinced.

> For the most affected, scientology is a good value the way heroin is a
> good value for an addict.

Using your theory, it could easily be stated that picketing, like
heroin, is a good value for those who engage in it for the pleasure
received due to the stimulation of pleasure centers in their brains. I
don't think you did what you did because you're addicted to endorphins
Keith. Though it's possible you may think so.



> You might wonder why people would have such vulnerabilities? The short
> answer is that these characteristics are side effects of characteristics
> which were useful in the environment in which we evolved. You can see how
> the pleasures of sex or the pleasure of attention for being a successful
> hunter contributed to the success of our ancestors a million years ago.
> That environment did not include short cuts to pleasure stimilation such
> as alcohol, refined drugs, or cults.

Again, I'll use the example of you and others around the world who rush
off to picket (no doubt getting an adrenaline rush and flood of
endorphins from the confrontational nature of the experience) and then
key in reports to soak up the after-rush and glow from the admiration
given them by their peers.

<snip>


> While the last three paragraphs are a speculative extension on what is
> accepted, they fit with the rest of the model and tie a number of
> observations, such as the similar behavior patterns you see in drug and
> cult addiction.

In short, what you're explaining is not only why some people get
involved in Scientology, but why other people get involved in ARS. I
don't buy it, but then you already knew that.

> Many, perhaps most, people manage to keep their drug consumptions under
> control. Some, perhaps even most, people keep cult involvement from
> ruining their lives. A few manage to make good money off of drugs or
> cults.
> Sound familiar? :-) Keith Henson

LOL! Sure does. Keith is refering to the fact that I made a damned good
living selling Scientology services for many years. He also knows me
well enough (electronically) to know where my area of interests have
been the last 15 years.

The comparison of one 'being addicted' to cults (read:CofS) in the same
way as some people are addicted to drugs or (as I was for years)
addicted to dangerous sports or physical activities is compelling on the
surface. So long as you don't apply it to yourself or, more
specifically, to being addicted to ARS or anti-CofS activities. It's
undeniable that experiences like admiration, love, threat of harm,
hunting or whatever, loose powerful substances in the brain and that we
react strongly to those. Accepting that our actions and responses are
all pre-set though because of those factors is, IMO, folly.

So... it's up to you folks... Keith is a strong opinion leader and
well-respected ARS advocate. Do you buy it? If Scientologists are merely
the victims of an 'addiction' syndrome, then the same must hold true for
you. Which makes you pretty much the same as Scientologists... all
you're here for is the rush.

Wolf

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