Reference needed
JosyWales6
official Church site? I need the reference but I must be looking in the wrong
place.
©Anti-Cult® - www.users.wineasy.se/noname/
In Message-ID: <20010308020657...@ng-fv1.aol.com>
From: josyw...@aol.comangetit (JosyWales6).
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com.
Wrote on the subject: Reference needed:
>Can someone point out where the claim of increased IQ or memory is on an
>official Church site? I need the reference but I must be looking in the wrong
>place.
Here's one: http://www.scientology.org/wis/wiseng/wis4-6/wis4_4.htm
And another: http://www.scientology.ie/wis/wiseng/28/28-idx.htm
And those were found in 10 seconds, by entering "IQ dianetics" in the
location field of the Netscape browser. There's many more places where
they are spreading that lie.
Sten-Arne
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"[Scientology] is dangerous because it is out to capture people,
especially children and impressionable young people, and indoctrinate
and brainwash them so that they become the unquestioning captives and
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relationships with others."
Mr. Justice Latey
Decision in "Re B & G Wards,"
Royal Courts of Justice
High Court
London, 23 July 1984.
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Warrior
josyw...@aol.comangetit says...
>
>Can someone point out where the claim of increased IQ or memory is on an
>official Church site? I need the reference but I must be looking in the wrong
>place.
I don't think the "church" of Scientology is so stupid (this is
arguable) as to put Hubbard's insane claim on the net. You can
find Hubbard's statement in his book _Dianetics: The Modern Science
[sic] of Mental Health_ [sic].
If you go to http://www.google.com and do a search on the terms
"dianetics raise IQ auditing" you can find 106 web pages that talk
about Hubbard's insane claim about Dianetic auditing raising the
IQ.
Warrior - Sunshine disinfects
See http://warrior.offlines.org/
JosyWales6
dianetics can improve IQ without saying it directly. Kind of slippery. I
thought I had seen something like " and can even improve IQ" somewhere once
upon a time. Sound familiar?
©Anti-Cult® - www.users.wineasy.se/noname/
In Message-ID: <20010308053239...@ng-fv1.aol.com>Wrote on the subject: Re: Reference needed:
Yes, it's there alright. It sure is in Book one anyhow, and you can pick
that book up from many second hand bookstores, for just a few cents.
Sten-OSA
Dave Bird
I am not sure if it is on any website --- it is definitely
in the Dianetics book. You may find a critic (or critical
biography) has quoted those passages from to.
|~/ |~/
~~|;'^';-._.-;'^';-._.-;'^';-._.-;'^';-._.-;||';-._.-;'^';||_.-;'^'0-|~~
P | Woof Woof, Glug Glug ||____________|| 0 | P
O | Who Drowned the Judge's Dog? | . . . . . . . '----. 0 | O
O | answers on *---|_______________ @__o0 | O
L |<a href="news:alt.religion.scientology"></a>_____________|/_______| L
www.xemu.demon.co.uk 2B0D 5195 337B A3E6 DDAC BD38 7F2F FD8E 7391 F44F
Mike O'Connor
josyw...@aol.comangetit (JosyWales6) wrote:
This claim looks clear as a bell. "thousands of case histories". Hey,
what do you want, scientific proof or somethin'?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Although psychology and psychiatry have long held that onešs IQ is
inherent and fixed, the application of Dianetics and Scientology
auditing has proved this not to be true. Intelligence can be raised, as
thousands of case histories show.
-- <http://www.scientology.ie/wis/wiseng/28/28-idx.htm>
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I couldn't find the thousands of case histories, but it's probably just
because I don't know how to use those complicated search engine thingies.
--
SCIENTOLOGY IS SECRETLY A UFO CULT
ASK THEM ABOUT XENU
Mike O'Connor <http://www.leptonicsystems.com/>
M. C. DiPietra
at mi...@leptonicsystems.com wrote on 3/8/01 6:04 PM:
> In article <20010308053239...@ng-fv1.aol.com>,
> josyw...@aol.comangetit (JosyWales6) wrote:
>
>> Thanks, I saw that one earlier tonight while browsing. It implies that
>> dianetics can improve IQ without saying it directly. Kind of slippery. I
>> thought I had seen something like " and can even improve IQ" somewhere once
>> upon a time. Sound familiar?
>
>
> This claim looks clear as a bell. "thousands of case histories". Hey,
> what do you want, scientific proof or somethin'?
>
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> Although psychology and psychiatry have long held that onešs IQ is
> inherent and fixed, the application of Dianetics and Scientology
> auditing has proved this not to be true. Intelligence can be raised, as
> thousands of case histories show.
>
> -- <http://www.scientology.ie/wis/wiseng/28/28-idx.htm>
>
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
This is interesting; nowhere in the psych courses I had to take in college
did they say IQ was "inherent and fixed". In fact, they were dismissing the
relevance of IQ, period, since the "tests" were shown to only test one's
ability to take the test...
> I couldn't find the thousands of case histories, but it's probably just
> because I don't know how to use those complicated search engine thingies.
However, I recently found an old post by Jeff Jacobsen from 22 Jul 1996.
In it, he was compiling a list of places where Dianetics and Scn make health
claims. His post asked for assistance in compiling the list.
Among the claims made [the quotes are in the original post, but I've left
them out here]
cure goiter Dianetics Today (1975 ed.) p. 280
cure polio "" p. 353
speed up healing of broken bone "" p. 110
cure effects of drugs "" p. 481
raise the dead Magazine Articles on Level 0, Checksheet 1968
"Dissemination of Material", p. 75
cures arthritis, mypoia, heart illness, asthma, misc. Dianteics '87 ed., p.
72
cure migraines "" p. 125 [also see HCOB 15 Jan '79 "handling with Auditing"
cure cancer "The History of Man" 1961 p. 20
cure skin cancer "All About Radiation" (1979 ed.) p. 114
cure radiation sickness "" p. 109
improve eyesight PAB no. 111 "Eyesight and glasses" also Dianetic Auditor's
Bulletin vol 2., no. 7 January 1952 "An afternoon with Ron
heal broken ankle HCOB 30 July 1973 "Scientology, Current State of the
Subject and Materials"
cure insanity HCOB 28 Nov. '70 "Psychosis"
cure bronchitis HCOB 14 Dec '63 "Case Analysis Health Research"
cure brainwashing HCOB no. 19 Dec '55
http://mp3.com/MaggieCouncil XENU WORLD ORDER CD now available
M.C.DiPietra <mdip...@earthlink.net>, SP4, KoX
"Hell, if you understood everything I say, you'd be me!" -Miles Davis
Mike O'Connor
Check out this "Bring Back to Life" procedure...
++++++++++++ SACRED CULT SCRIPTURE +++++++++++++
Use of Process: For use on someone who has left the body -- i.e., in a
situation where if the thetan does not come back the body will die.
[...]
It would be as simple as commanding,
"COME BACK AND BRING THIS BODY TO LIFE!"
Or ordering the person,
"COME BACK HERE AND PICK UP YOUR BODY! AT ONCE! PICK IT UP! I ORDER
YOU! RIGHT NOW!"
[...]
Of course, if it is needed, the person should be fully handled with
medical treatment and further assist actions to make him completely well.
[...]
-- L. Ron Hubbard, HCOB 1967-04-08
The Bring Back To Life Assist
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I wonder how much this handy process costs?
Fluffygirl
"Mike O'Connor" <mi...@leptonicsystems.com> wrote in message
news:mike-BD9AC3.1...@news2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...
> In article <B6CE4DF0.31560%mdip...@earthlink.net>,
> "M. C. DiPietra" <mdip...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > However, I recently found an old post by Jeff Jacobsen from 22 Jul 1996.
> > In it, he was compiling a list of places where Dianetics and Scn make
health
> > claims. His post asked for assistance in compiling the list.
Question: how is this different from the Christian sects who lay on hands
and institute faith healing? Are you going to address them on those, too?
No charge.
C
Robert A Crawford
>> > In it, he was compiling a list of places where Dianetics and Scn make
>health
>> > claims. His post asked for assistance in compiling the list.
>Question: how is this different from the Christian sects who lay on hands
>and institute faith healing? Are you going to address them on those, too?
Clearly there's no difference -- they're both liars and
frauds.
However, most of those sects do not harass and attack people
who leave them or criticize them. At least not to the degree the CoS
does.
Chris Leithiser
>
> Question: how is this different from the Christian sects who lay on hands
> and institute faith healing? Are you going to address them on those, too?
Depends on whether they charge for the services, and whether they deny
medical attention to a victim who cannot give consent.
Fluffygirl
"Robert A Crawford" <craw...@kloognome.com> wrote in message
news:slrn9aidqo....@kloognome.com...
But I was mainly addressing the thesis here on this ng - and other places-
that CofS should not do what it does. The other things you mention are other
issues which have nothing to do with healing.
One addresses the particular issue extant in the discussion or arena in
which it's being addressed.
I'm waiting to see you take on the Christian healers next. Go on....I'm
waaaaaiiiiitinnng....
C
Elizabeth Ann Cox --
>
>
>"Mike O'Connor" <mi...@leptonicsystems.com> wrote in message
>news:mike-BD9AC3.1...@news2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...
>> In article <B6CE4DF0.31560%mdip...@earthlink.net>,
>> "M. C. DiPietra" <mdip...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>> > However, I recently found an old post by Jeff Jacobsen from 22 Jul 1996.
>> > In it, he was compiling a list of places where Dianetics and Scn make
>health
>> > claims. His post asked for assistance in compiling the list.
>
>
>Question: how is this different from the Christian sects who lay on hands
>and institute faith healing? Are you going to address them on those, too?
>
>
link the religious snake handlers who practice the belief that if a snake bites
them and they live, they are apparently in good with God. Well, they still
suffer some sort of permanent damage from the bites. It is amazing to me that
in an age of such technological and scientific advancement, we remain mired in
medieval beliefs and superstitions.
Elizabeth Ann Cox
aka, Bunnyann
Doubt is not a crime, simply a reasonable reaction to tyranny!
Andreas Heldal-Lund - www.xenu.net
Best wishes,
Andreas Heldal-Lund, Nunsteinvegen 9, N-4056 Tananger, Norway
Pho: +47 90 04 32 99 Fax: 90 32 35 46 E-mail: a...@xenu.net
home.sol.no/~spirous www.xenu.net www.hedning.no/hedning
---------------------------------------------------------------
"If anyone can show me, and prove to me, that I am wrong in
thought or deed, I will gladly change. I seek the truth, which
never yet hurt anybody. It is only persistence in self-delusion
and ignorance which does harm." -- Marcus Aurelius
---------------------------------------------------------------
El Roto
"Fluffygirl" <csw...@home.com> wrote in message
news:3aa92...@news2.lightlink.com...
>
> "Mike O'Connor" <mi...@leptonicsystems.com> wrote in message
> news:mike-BD9AC3.1...@news2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...
> > In article <B6CE4DF0.31560%mdip...@earthlink.net>,
> > "M. C. DiPietra" <mdip...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >
> > > However, I recently found an old post by Jeff Jacobsen from 22
Jul 1996.
> > > In it, he was compiling a list of places where Dianetics and
Scn make
> > >health claims. His post asked for assistance in compiling the
list.
>
>
> Question: how is this different from the Christian sects who lay
on hands
> and institute faith healing? Are you going to address them on
those, too?
Apples and Oranges, dontcha know.
Christian sects don't hold laying of hands and faith healing as 100%
Standard, Workable, Scientific facts, Claire (although I suspect you
knew that). They also state loudly and longly that *faith*, and
lots of it, is essential in these acts, unlike Scientology, and that
the healing power comes from Jesus, or the Holy Spirit, or God (or
all three if you consider the Holy Trinity), not from the "research"
of a man who never provided one shred of evidence. You should
really look into the difference between miracles and (cough, cough)
technology.
snip
> >
> > Check out this "Bring Back to Life" procedure...
> >
> >
> > ++++++++++++ SACRED CULT SCRIPTURE +++++++++++++
> >
> > Use of Process: For use on someone who has left the body --
i.e., in a
> > situation where if the thetan does not come back the body will
die.
> > [...]
> >
> > It would be as simple as commanding,
> >
> > "COME BACK AND BRING THIS BODY TO LIFE!"
> >
> > Or ordering the person,
> >
> > "COME BACK HERE AND PICK UP YOUR BODY! AT ONCE! PICK IT UP! I
ORDER
> > YOU! RIGHT NOW!"
> >
> > [...]
> > Of course, if it is needed, the person should be fully handled
with
> > medical treatment and further assist actions to make him
completely well.
> > [...]
> >
> > -- L. Ron Hubbard, HCOB 1967-04-08
> > The Bring Back To Life Assist
> >
> > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> >
> > I wonder how much this handy process costs?
>
> No charge.
Not unless you count clearing out the deceased's bank account in
Lisa McPherson's case. Perhaps that was the only time...
--
Steve "Big Bigot" G.
"...the internet [is] the true universal solvent-it works so good it
even cuts the veneer of horse refuse off of the "Church" of
Scientology..."
- Ed Hattaway -
Zinj
Maybe when they get their own paramilitary organizations, secret police and
prison camps Claire :)
Til then... this place *is* about scientology.... not Elmer Gantry
Zinj
JosyWales6
>You can
>find Hubbard's statement in his book _Dianetics: The Modern Science
>[sic] of Mental Health_ [sic].
>
Lucky me, i found two donated copies in a college library. Neither had been
checked out for at least 8 years.
Dave Bird
>"Mike O'Connor" <mi...@leptonicsystems.com> wrote in message
>news:mike-BD9AC3.1...@news2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...
>> In article <B6CE4DF0.31560%mdip...@earthlink.net>,
>> "M. C. DiPietra" <mdip...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>> > However, I recently found an old post by Jeff Jacobsen from 22 Jul 1996.
>> > In it, he was compiling a list of places where Dianetics and Scn make
>health
>> > claims. His post asked for assistance in compiling the list.
>
>
>Question: how is this different from the Christian sects who lay on hands
>and institute faith healing?
BECAUSE, dumbo (or should I call you nelly?), the former say "if you
have faith then a cure will happen." The latter are couple with
claims such as "experimental proof."
The former are unable to be determined by experiment, reason, or
indeed a court of law. In fact the plain description is "this is
sheer fantasy which you may choose to believe if you wish."
The latter, in the sense in which an ordinary person will be
(tricked into) reading the words, suggest that established
science has seen and accepted experimental proof. Which is
a flat out lie, plainly determinable.
--
## ## " A child of five would understand this. Send someone
(@ (@ to fetch a child of five." GROUCHO MARX
\
##### | Da...@xemu.demon.co.uk quote collection---cfbd
~\_====+ www.xemu.demon.co.uk/ picture---Ian Broverman
Dave Bird
<craw...@kloognome.com> writes:
>Fluffygirl <csw...@home.com> wrote:
>>"Mike O'Connor" <mi...@leptonicsystems.com> wrote in message
>>> > However, I recently found an old post by Jeff Jacobsen from 22 Jul 1996.
>>> > In it, he was compiling a list of places where Dianetics and Scn make
>>health
>>> > claims. His post asked for assistance in compiling the list.
>>Question: how is this different from the Christian sects who lay on hands
>>and institute faith healing? Are you going to address them on those, too?
>
> Clearly there's no difference -- they're both liars and
>frauds.
Neither of them can cure illness, but only one is lying (and doing it
to get money by deception). Saying that this is "all imaginary but
you can choose to believe it" is an honest presentation. Making
someone believe "this is confirmed by experiment in mainstream science"
is lying (and fraudulent) if not factually true.
--
## ## " I've had a perfectly wonderful evening...
(@ (@ but this wasn't it" GROUCHO MARX
Fluffygirl
"Dave Bird" <da...@xemu.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:n+p76nGt...@xemu.demon.co.uk...
> In article<3aa92...@news2.lightlink.com>, Fluffygirl
> <csw...@home.com> writes:
> >"Mike O'Connor" <mi...@leptonicsystems.com> wrote in message
> >news:mike-BD9AC3.1...@news2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...
> >> In article <B6CE4DF0.31560%mdip...@earthlink.net>,
> >> "M. C. DiPietra" <mdip...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> > However, I recently found an old post by Jeff Jacobsen from 22 Jul
1996.
> >> > In it, he was compiling a list of places where Dianetics and Scn make
> >health
> >> > claims. His post asked for assistance in compiling the list.
> >
> >
> >Question: how is this different from the Christian sects who lay on hands
> >and institute faith healing?
>
> BECAUSE, dumbo (or should I call you nelly?),
If you are going to call me names you can piss off. Forget the rest of your
post, if it starts out w/ name calling I'm not interested.
C
Patrick Volk
wrote:
>
>"Mike O'Connor" <mi...@leptonicsystems.com> wrote in message
>news:mike-BD9AC3.1...@news2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...
>> In article <B6CE4DF0.31560%mdip...@earthlink.net>,
>> "M. C. DiPietra" <mdip...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>> > However, I recently found an old post by Jeff Jacobsen from 22 Jul 1996.
>> > In it, he was compiling a list of places where Dianetics and Scn make
>health
>> > claims. His post asked for assistance in compiling the list.
>
>
>Question: how is this different from the Christian sects who lay on hands
>and institute faith healing? Are you going to address them on those, too?
Answer: In the Christian sects, their belief is that the effectiveness
of the healing effect is dependant on the faith of the victim. From
the Scientology description, it matters on the faith of the healer.
Most of the sects will tell you the victim has to believe for it to
work. Does Scientology?
yduzit...@sympatico.ca
Fluffygirl wrote:
>
> "Mike O'Connor" <mi...@leptonicsystems.com> wrote in message
> news:mike-BD9AC3.1...@news2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...
> > In article <B6CE4DF0.31560%mdip...@earthlink.net>,
> > "M. C. DiPietra" <mdip...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >
> > > However, I recently found an old post by Jeff Jacobsen from 22 Jul 1996.
> > > In it, he was compiling a list of places where Dianetics and Scn make
> health
> > > claims. His post asked for assistance in compiling the list.
>
> Question: how is this different from the Christian sects who lay >on hands and institute faith healing? Are you going to address >them on those, too?
I have as much contempt for so-called christians who use trickery
and claim to heal with touch and so forth as I do for the tricks
and fraudulent claims of scientology. I do not think that these
so-called christians would be allowed to refuse medical treatment
for their children in the name of religion - the same way I do not
think that scientology should have been allowed to take Lisa McPherson
out of the hospital to receive their "religious" treatment which
ultimately led to her death. There is no reason on this earth for
anyone to suffer and die in the name of "religion". I am all for the
parents of children who die in these
sects being charged for their deaths. Religion should never be
used as an excuse to refuse medical treatment - ever. I have no
sympathy for these people and no patience with the "It's my right
to practice my religion my way" when it causes needless pain, suffering,
and death. This is taking it to the extremes and I
will never stop fighting this insanity.
Y
Mike O'Connor
"Fluffygirl" <csw...@home.com> wrote:
> > In article <B6CE4DF0.31560%mdip...@earthlink.net>,
> > "M. C. DiPietra" <mdip...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >
> > > However, I recently found an old post by Jeff Jacobsen from 22
> > > Jul 1996. In it, he was compiling a list of places where
> > > Dianetics and Scn make health claims. His post asked for
> > > assistance in compiling the list.
>
>
> Question: how is this different from the Christian sects who lay on
> hands and institute faith healing? Are you going to address them on
> those, too?
Scientology is not based on faith, in fact, faith has no part in it. You
follow the proscribed actions in the proscribed way, and the result will
be obtained.
Suppose you are deaf. Nerve deafness - total deafness. NOTs 22 "ANATEN"
tells us that this can happen when a Body Thetan mocks up mass that
impinges on a nerve. NOTs 22 tells us how and why nerve deafness can
occur. NOTs 34 "THE SEQUENCE FOR HANDLING A PHYSICAL CONDITION" tells us
how to diagnose, treat, cure, and prevent such a condition.
Have you read NOTs 22 and NOTs 34?
An auditor uses the E-MEter to help diagnose the problem, that it is
indeed Body Thetans, ALIEN BEINGS infesting the patient, causing the
condition. The auditor treats the problem by using the E-Meter to help
locate and blow, exorcize, the ALIEN BEINGS in the proper sequence and
manner as dictated by NOTs 34. The condition can be cured when the BTs
mocking up the impinging masses are gone. Recurrence of this and similar
conditions are prevented by using the E-Meter to blow all remaining BTs.
The cult has already had its day (years, actually) in court on this and
is specifically prohibited from claiming its E-Meter device can help
diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease.
It's not faith healing. There is nothing in the cult sacred scriptures
that requires faith - that's what the cult says. It's "Scient"-ifical!
It's practicing medicine. It's illegal. IANAL.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
In all, these scriptures represent more than half a century of Mr.
Hubbard's search for the means to realize man's full spiritual
capabilities. There is nothing within them that requires faith. But
rather, as he declared, "the total empire to which the Scientologist
aspires is the empire of wisdom."
-- "Scientology: Religious Works of L. Ron Hubbard"
<http://www.scientology.org/WORLD/WORLDENG/corp/csi7.htm>
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Nothing in Scientology, however, need be taken on faith. Its truths are
self-evident, its principles are easily demonstrable and its technology
can be seen at work in any church of Scientology. One need only open
the door and step through.
-- "Scientology: SCIENTOLOGY PRINCIPLES AND APPLICATIONS"
<http://www.scientology.org/wis/WISENG/wis4-6/wis4_1.htm>
++++++++++++ SACRED CULT SCRIPTURE +++++++++++++
There is no more over-rated quality in existence than faith.
-- L. Ron Hubbard
"Scientology 8-8008"
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
M. C. DiPietra
wrote on 3/10/01 1:08 AM:
To answer your question;
The Christian sects say "if you have faith then a cure will happen." Scn,
Inc. coupled with claims such as "experimental proof."
The former are unable to be determined by experiment, reason, or
indeed a court of law. In fact the plain description is "this is
sheer fantasy which you may choose to believe if you wish."
The latter, in the sense in which an ordinary person will be
(tricked into) reading the words, suggest that established
science has seen and accepted experimental proof. Which is
a flat out lie, plainly determinable.
Make sense?
Of course, that's Dave's version without the namecalling.
Now I could add something about the Food and Drug Administration and laws
the US has against practicing medicine without a license, but Keith Henson
is already running with that ball. Besides, the "religion" angle falls flat
if you just take the medical quotes out of Dianetics, which claims it is not
a religion, but an "applied religious philosophy". As such, it shoudl not
only be prosecuted for practicing medicine without a license, but also
should not be tax exempt.
-m., human being
Dave Bird
Yes, I'm sure that is a convenient excuse for not answering.
Tommy
So - If you post on a Ford discussion group about a discovery you have
made - that several cars came off their production line with flaws that
will hurt/kill the people who buy them, my response should be "What
about Chevrolet? I'm waiting for you to take them on next. Look over
there at what they're doing!"?
Don't insult my intelligence.
Tommy
--
"It's doubtful anyone would heed a failed
businessman with his own "religion" and other failed sci-fi interests."
"Dorsai666" Dan Bryenton, posted to a.r.s.
Tommy
>
> Check out this "Bring Back to Life" procedure...
>
> ++++++++++++ SACRED CULT SCRIPTURE +++++++++++++
>
> Use of Process: For use on someone who has left the body -- i.e., in a
> situation where if the thetan does not come back the body will die.
> [...]
>
> It would be as simple as commanding,
>
> "COME BACK AND BRING THIS BODY TO LIFE!"
>
> Or ordering the person,
>
> "COME BACK HERE AND PICK UP YOUR BODY! AT ONCE! PICK IT UP! I ORDER
> YOU! RIGHT NOW!"
>
> [...]
> Of course, if it is needed, the person should be fully handled with
> medical treatment and further assist actions to make him completely well.
> [...]
>
> -- L. Ron Hubbard, HCOB 1967-04-08
> The Bring Back To Life Assist
>
It just hit me like a punch to the gut that this is the last thing Lisa
McPherson heard in this world, as her brain died from oxygen starvation
- $cientologists who had refused to speak to her for two weeks screaming
into her ears.
I think I'm going to be sick.
Dobe R Mann
wrote:
One cult at a time Fluffy, one at a time....
>
>C
>
Dobe R Mann
SP4 Tone 1.95
Read www.xenu.net
See www.xenutv.com
_____________________________________________
INCIDENT 4
LOUD SNAP (Bones breaking)
CHEVROLETS COME OUT
BURN RUBBER
FISHTAIL RIGHT
DO U-TURN
STALL
FLAT TIRE (No motion)
BLOWS HORN
BLOWS MISCAVIGE
CRASH
©Anti-Cult® - www.users.wineasy.se/noname/
In Message-ID: <3aa93...@news2.lightlink.com>
From: "Fluffygirl" <csw...@home.com>.
Organization: Lightlink Internet.
Wrote on the subject: Re: Scientology's Bring Back To Life Assist:
This is alt.religion.scientology, and not alt.christian.healers
After the scientology mafia is down and out, it's not the christian
healers turn, it the moonies that's going to be the next crime cult to
be shaved. After that, perhaps the christian healers, or perhaps some
other idiocy will be taken on..
Sten-Arne
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Here's how I think Hubbard did his "research." He downed a bottle of
gin, popped a few pills, passed out and woke up hours later, clutching
the empty bottle and screaming "The psychs are coming, the psychs are
coming, they're crawling all over me. Get 'em off, get 'em off." And,
another Scientology rundown was thus created, the False Purpose rundown.
- ind...@aol.com (Indanm)
In Message-ID: <20010310005938...@ng-fr1.aol.com>
Jim Bianchi
>>
>> "Robert A Crawford" <craw...@kloognome.com> wrote in message
>> news:slrn9aidqo....@kloognome.com...
>> > Fluffygirl <csw...@home.com> wrote:
>> > >"Mike O'Connor" <mi...@leptonicsystems.com> wrote in message
>> > >> > However, I recently found an old post by Jeff Jacobsen from 22 Jul
>> > >> > 1996. In it, he was compiling a list of places where Dianetics and
>> > >> > Scn make health claims. His post asked for assistance in compiling
>> > >> > the list.
>> > >Question: how is this different from the Christian sects who lay on
>> > >hands and institute faith healing? Are you going to address them on
>> > >those, too?
>> >
>> > Clearly there's no difference -- they're both liars and
>> > frauds.
>> >
>> > However, most of those sects do not harass and attack people who leave
>> > them or criticize them. At least not to the degree the CoS does.
>>
>> But I was mainly addressing the thesis here on this ng - and other
>> places- that CofS should not do what it does. The other things you
>> mention are other issues which have nothing to do with healing.
Fluffy, the common element you've overlooked that runs through all of
these things (scn harrassing critics, scn making health claims, etc) is that
NONE of them are things scn should do.
>> One addresses the particular issue extant in the discussion or arena in
>> which it's being addressed.
Fine. So may I respectfully suggest you take this discussion about
the validity of faith healing to alt.religion.christian.faith_healing where
it will be relevant. Hubbard stated many times that the improvements which
are available via dianetic and scientological processing are scientifically
valid and not dependant in any way upon faith for their efficacy. And would
Hubbard LIE?
--
ji...@sonic.net
Eclectic Garbanzo BBS, (707) 539-1279
Fluffygirl
"Tommy" <Tommy_Sp**ges...@Xs.net> wrote in message
news:3AAB63...@Xs.net...
I wasn't.
The Scn assists do not cause harm.
C
Fluffygirl
"M. C. DiPietra" <mdip...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:B6CFDCB2.317D2%mdip...@earthlink.net...
Well, if it had apparently happened, wouldn't that constitute experimental
proof? (which sounds almost akin to "anecdotal evidence" from where I sit).
I think that it would.
>
> The former are unable to be determined by experiment, reason, or
> indeed a court of law. In fact the plain description is "this is
> sheer fantasy which you may choose to believe if you wish."
>
> The latter, in the sense in which an ordinary person will be
> (tricked into) reading the words, suggest that established
> science has seen and accepted experimental proof. Which is
> a flat out lie, plainly determinable.
>
> Make sense?
> Of course, that's Dave's version without the namecalling.
Which is why I'm replying to *you*.
>
> Now I could add something about the Food and Drug Administration and laws
> the US has against practicing medicine without a license,
Oh come now. Someone's lying in a hospital bed , already having received
medical treatment, and they are dying. And their relative is there and does
the "bring back to life" assist since the guy's about to *flatline*.
Obviously that hurts no one.
> but Keith Henson
> is already running with that ball. Besides, the "religion" angle falls
flat
> if you just take the medical quotes out of Dianetics, which claims it is
not
> a religion, but an "applied religious philosophy". As such, it shoudl not
> only be prosecuted for practicing medicine without a license, but also
> should not be tax exempt.
They do assists that promote healing. The church's policies state that if a
person is ill or injured they are supposed to get medical treatment first.
So they go and do that. And a family member or friend comes along and gives
them an assist to speed recovery. That is *not* practicing medicine without
a license anymore than laying on of hands by Christian healers is.
Religions address the spirit. Scn does as well. Scn is not the only religion
or cult or mystic spelling bee- whatever you want to call it- that believes
that aiding the spirit can assist the body it's in to speed healing.
Now, at such times that the church would tell the person not to go to the
doctor because the person should receive Scn auditing and/or assists only-
this would be a different story. And it has happened in the past and I've
commented on the fact that it has. I wouldn't condone that at all. But that
is not the same as saying "Oh look! Wow! He's dying! Maybe I can stop him
from slipping away." and then doing the Bring Back to Life Assist, or giving
someone who's home recuperating from surgery (as I am right now) a touch
assist or a nerve assist while in no way barring that person's access to
medical care.
It's not the same scenario and since it is not, that distinction needs to be
made so that proper evaluation and analysis can take place.
C
Fluffygirl
"Dobe R Mann" <dobe_...@nospamsorclamshotmail.com> wrote in message
news:m29nat8g0pr71co9l...@4ax.com...
Serious question here- do you really think that all Christian sects that may
have things like faith healing are cults?
And do you think that religions/cults/mystic spelling bees/whatever- should
NOT try to minister to the spirit which IS, in fact, intertwined with the
body?
I get the feeling that a number of people think well, let them go to Sunday
service, let them listen to their minister, read their Bible or Tech Volumes
or whatever, but they better not try to help anyone feel physically better
because that's outside the purview of religions.
But it's *not*.
Religions (and cults and mystic spelling bees too!) believe in the existence
of a spirit. They also believe that spirit affects body and vice versa. And
that is why you get things like faith healing and assists and other things.
It cannot be separated out the way I think some people here would like to
see.
As I've said elsewhere on this thread, there's a difference between telling
someone they better not see a doctor because their church will fix
everything (which is something I'm not in favor of) and telling someone, ok,
you've been to the doctor, is there anything we can do to help things along.
I think differentiation needs to be made and I also think that not
everyone's willing to do that.
C
Fluffygirl
"Jim Bianchi" <ji...@bolt.sonic.net> wrote in message
news:slrn9anc4...@bolt.sonic.net...
I've not overlooked that. I've stated any number of times (although not on
this thread, previously) that these are things that CofS should not be
doing. At all. Ever.
Well, some of them aren't anyway. I don't class the harassment of
individuals with health claims.
I also don't equate all health claims made by CofS or by individual
Scientologists (whether they be church members or independents) with all
*other* health claims made by CofS or by individual Scientologists. (I've
said a bit more on that in my reply to M.DiPietra on this thread about the
health thing)
>
> >> One addresses the particular issue extant in the discussion or arena in
> >> which it's being addressed.
>
> Fine. So may I respectfully suggest you take this discussion about
> the validity of faith healing to alt.religion.christian.faith_healing
Heck no!
I said what I did because I think that some critics, perhaps, have an
entirely different standard for CofS than they do for the rest of the
universe and I felt like calling attention to that.
>where
> it will be relevant. Hubbard stated many times that the improvements which
> are available via dianetic and scientological processing are
scientifically
> valid
I think he considered them to be scientifically valid because he had some
measure of success with them that was verifiable.
One does not need to do a double blind study to know that if one leaves
one's hand on a hot burner, one gets burned. I'm not being sarcastic, that
*is* a scientific principle, albeit a very elementary one.
>and not dependant in any way upon faith for their efficacy. And would
> Hubbard LIE?
No, but he'd for damn sure exaggerate at times. He believed in what he was
doing, but he was not above exaggeration.
As time went on he became less and less willing to interface with the
scientific community and with other non Scientologists who might have an
interest whether that interest be friendly or unfriendly.
I personally think that was a mistake on his part.
C
Dobe R Mann
wrote:
>
>"Dobe R Mann" <dobe_...@nospamsorclamshotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:m29nat8g0pr71co9l...@4ax.com...
>> On Fri, 9 Mar 2001 12:05:58 -0800, "Fluffygirl" <csw...@home.com>
>> wrote:
(chomp).
>> >
>> >I'm waiting to see you take on the Christian healers next. Go on....I'm
>> >waaaaaiiiiitinnng....
>>
>>
>> One cult at a time Fluffy, one at a time....
>
>Serious question here- do you really think that all Christian sects that may
>have things like faith healing are cults?
Well, I'm an unbeliever of it all.
>And do you think that religions/cults/mystic spelling bees/whatever- should
>NOT try to minister to the spirit which IS, in fact, intertwined with the
>body?
I don't care about ministering to the spirit. I do care about
bait-and-switch scams.
>
>I get the feeling that a number of people think well, let them go to Sunday
>service, let them listen to their minister, read their Bible or Tech Volumes
>or whatever, but they better not try to help anyone feel physically better
>because that's outside the purview of religions.
>
>But it's *not*.
>
>Religions (and cults and mystic spelling bees too!) believe in the existence
>of a spirit. They also believe that spirit affects body and vice versa. And
>that is why you get things like faith healing and assists and other things.
>It cannot be separated out the way I think some people here would like to
>see.
And?
>
>As I've said elsewhere on this thread, there's a difference between telling
>someone they better not see a doctor because their church will fix
>everything (which is something I'm not in favor of) and telling someone, ok,
>you've been to the doctor, is there anything we can do to help things along.
>
>I think differentiation needs to be made and I also think that not
>everyone's willing to do that.
>
>C
What about the co$ trying to convince Tory to not take her medications
that she needs?
Fluffygirl
That was wrong of them!
And it's in no way the same thing as giving a "bring back to life assist" or
a "touch assist". I have said a couple times today that I do not feel that
Scientologists should be told or persuaded or asked to give up their medical
treatment that they need.
I myself am home recuperating from surgery (hence the onslaught of recent
posts!). Had anyone tried to talk me out of having the surgery (the thing
wasn't life threatening but three doctors indicated I should have the
surgery and that the alternative medical treatment wasn't all that great)
I'd not have gone along with them. However, now that I'm home from the
hospital I feel totally fine about getting any assists that my auditor
(John) would suggest for me. Not as a substitute for medical care, but as an
augmentation after having received proper medical care. Do you see what I
mean?
Very nice to talk to you again!
C
M. C. DiPietra
wrote on 3/11/01 4:08 PM:
In my dictionary, "apparently happened' is not the same as proof.
Selling someone a system or procedure and telling them it can be used to
raise the dead, cure arthritis, and make you able to throw away your glasses
forever, and not being able to duplicate alleged results in a clinical
setting seems to smell a lot like medical fraud, although IANAL.
Nowhere do I see, where those claims are being made, disclaimers about it
being a matter of faith; instead I see a lot of pseudoscience, trotted out
as decor to make scientology appear scientific.
Saying it is an applied religious philosophy instead of a self-help system
and calling it a "fixed donation" instead of a "price" does not make
scientology, whether it "works" or not, a religion.
>>
>> The former are unable to be determined by experiment, reason, or
>> indeed a court of law. In fact the plain description is "this is
>> sheer fantasy which you may choose to believe if you wish."
>>
>> The latter, in the sense in which an ordinary person will be
>> (tricked into) reading the words, suggest that established
>> science has seen and accepted experimental proof. Which is
>> a flat out lie, plainly determinable.
>>
>> Make sense?
>> Of course, that's Dave's version without the namecalling.
>
> Which is why I'm replying to *you*.
>
>>
>> Now I could add something about the Food and Drug Administration and laws
>> the US has against practicing medicine without a license,
>
> Oh come now. Someone's lying in a hospital bed , already having received
> medical treatment, and they are dying. And their relative is there and does
> the "bring back to life" assist since the guy's about to *flatline*.
> Obviously that hurts no one.
>
Maybe not, but selling the person whose relative is ailing a procedure that
is touted to raise the dead is snake oil.
>
>> but Keith Henson
>> is already running with that ball. Besides, the "religion" angle falls
> flat
>> if you just take the medical quotes out of Dianetics, which claims it is
> not
>> a religion, but an "applied religious philosophy". As such, it shoudl not
>> only be prosecuted for practicing medicine without a license, but also
>> should not be tax exempt.
>
> They do assists that promote healing. The church's policies state that if a
> person is ill or injured they are supposed to get medical treatment first.
> So they go and do that. And a family member or friend comes along and gives
> them an assist to speed recovery. That is *not* practicing medicine without
> a license anymore than laying on of hands by Christian healers is.
If they're buying the course that tells them it will; if they're buying into
the engram theory of disease, if they're telling people to eschew medicine
for it, when Hubbard says he's out to replace the field of medicine, then it
is.
>
> Religions address the spirit. Scn does as well. Scn is not the only religion
> or cult or mystic spelling bee- whatever you want to call it- that believes
> that aiding the spirit can assist the body it's in to speed healing.
>
> Now, at such times that the church would tell the person not to go to the
> doctor because the person should receive Scn auditing and/or assists only-
> this would be a different story. And it has happened in the past and I've
> commented on the fact that it has. I wouldn't condone that at all. But that
> is not the same as saying "Oh look! Wow! He's dying! Maybe I can stop him
> from slipping away." and then doing the Bring Back to Life Assist, or giving
> someone who's home recuperating from surgery (as I am right now) a touch
> assist or a nerve assist while in no way barring that person's access to
> medical care.
>
> It's not the same scenario and since it is not, that distinction needs to be
> made so that proper evaluation and analysis can take place.
>
> C
>
I wasn't envisioning that distinction at all, since the scenario I envision
must take place when the individual is purchasing or buying the information
or procedure that he thinks will enable him to toss his glasses in the
wastecan. Or raise Lisa McPherson.
Fluffygirl
That is against Scn policy to do that.You are overlooking this.
>and not being able to duplicate alleged results in a clinical
> setting seems to smell a lot like medical fraud,
Of course it does. That's why it's against our religion.
> although IANAL.
>
> Nowhere do I see, where those claims are being made, disclaimers about it
> being a matter of faith; instead I see a lot of pseudoscience, trotted out
> as decor to make scientology appear scientific.
Please be advised that it is against Scn policy and Scn tech- therefore it's
against the Scn religion- to tell people that they can get cured by taking
these courses. I'm not saying it's never happened, I'm saying that when it
has, it's been directly contra to the dictates of those claimants own
religion.
You are overlooking that, whether deliberately or not, I don't know. I know
it would make it far more convenient for you to believe that this is part
and parcel of the Scn religion, but it is not. What happened to Raul Lopez
was, for example, against the Scn religion.
These are promises "reges" have NO business making and not just by the
non-Scientologist ideas,either. They flat-out aren't supposed to be doing
that.
And it is *not* snake oil to believe that the spirit affects the body and
vice versa and that what occurs in auditing *may* affect that person
physically. It *is* snake oil AND AGAINST SCN POLICY to guarantee that it
would affect the person physically and how and when and where because that
cannot be guaranteed and also it's against Scn policy to suggest or order
the person to not receive real medical care. I have had , over the course of
my life, medicines and two surgeries administered to me as a Scientologist
and I've had Scn staff tell me to get various symptoms checked out at a
doctor's. I've seen a Scientology staffer order a "pc" to get his teeth
fixed at a dentist's and not to come back for any more auditing sessions
until they were. I know this happened, because it was my pc that this
happened to.
Much has been written about times where that did NOT happen, such as with
Raul Lopez and such as with Tory's medications, too and I am not questioning
the fact that those things occurred.I also don't advocate or condone them.
These things were contra to Scientology policy. And they were wrong for
other reasons besides that, obviously.
I submit to you that you do not really know the Scn religion. You judge by
abuses. It is well and good that you look at such abuses that took place but
it is NOT well and good that you decide from your frame of reference as a
not fully informed non Scientologist that these are actually part and parcel
of the Scn religion.
We are free to minister to the spirit in hopes that the body will be
affected but only after medical treatment was obtained or if there's nothing
else medical science can do except things of an experimental nature. That
is not the same as the picture you paint.
There is NOTHING wrong with trying to prevent someone from dying by talking
to them in the form of a "bring back to life assist" when medical options
have been sought, granted and exhausted or when such are unavailable and for
anyone to think that there was something wrong with that would indicate a
fixed idea of Brobdingnagian proportions.
C
Steve Plakos
Fluffygirl wrote:
> (big snip)
Here is a very simple little challenge for you Claire. Get on an airplane and
fly to Los Angeles. You and J can stay at my house (lots of guest bedrooms).
We'll get up bright and early and drive down to CCLA, go in the front door, and
this is what we'll say: "I heard that scientology could help me. I've been
told that I have an inoperable brain tumor. What can you suggest?"
I will cover any wager you wish to suggest that they will attempt to sell you
everything under the sun, up the bridge, and over the rainbow, complete with
promises of miraculous recovery. All you have to do is utter the magic words "I
can pay."
Feel free to email me to arrange a convenient time to pick you guys up at the
airport.
SP - "I was born that way"
I.S.Rennie
>
> "Tommy" <Tommy_Sp**ges...@Xs.net> wrote in message
> > So - If you post on a Ford discussion group about a discovery you have
> > made - that several cars came off their production line with flaws that
> > will hurt/kill the people who buy them, my response should be "What
> > about Chevrolet? I'm waiting for you to take them on next. Look over
> > there at what they're doing!"?
> >
> > Don't insult my intelligence.
>
> I wasn't.
>
> The Scn assists do not cause harm.
utilising them instead of proper medical assistance does.
I.S.Rennie
>
> "Mike O'Connor" <mi...@leptonicsystems.com> wrote in message
> news:mike-BD9AC3.1...@news2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...
> > In article <B6CE4DF0.31560%mdip...@earthlink.net>,
> > "M. C. DiPietra" <mdip...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >
> > > However, I recently found an old post by Jeff Jacobsen from 22 Jul 1996.
> > > In it, he was compiling a list of places where Dianetics and Scn make
> health
> > > claims. His post asked for assistance in compiling the list.
>
> Question: how is this different from the Christian sects who lay on hands
simple answer?
yes. I think faith healing is a con game too.
Diane Richardson
<mdip...@earthlink.net> wrote:
[snip]
>Nowhere do I see, where those claims are being made, disclaimers about it
>being a matter of faith; instead I see a lot of pseudoscience, trotted out
>as decor to make scientology appear scientific.
The disclaimer is quite clear in the contract people must sign before
taking scientology courses and/or auditing.
Here's the disclaimer appearing at the front of "Clear Body, Clear
Mind," the Purification Rundown book:
"This book is part of the works of L. Ron Hubbard, who developed
Scientology applied religious philosophy. It is presented to the
reader as a record of observations and research into the nature of the
human mind and spirit, and not as a statement of claims made by the
author. The benefits and goals of Scientology can be attained only by
the dedicated efforts of the reader.
"The Purification program cannot be construed as a recommendation
of medical treatment or medication and it is not professed as a
physical handling for bodies nor is any claim made to that effect.
There are no medical recommendations or claims for the Purification
program or for any of the vitamin or mineral regimens described in
this book.
"No individual should undertake the Purification program or any of its
regimens without first consulting and obtaining the informed approval
of a licensed medical practitioner. The author makes no warranties or
representation as to the effectiveness of the Purification program."
If people can read such an obvious admission that what follows is bunk
and still believe they're undertaking a "medical cure," they deserve
what they get. Sorry, I know that sounds harsh, but just how far do
you think society should go to protect people from their own
stupidity?
If you want to outlaw this sort of thing, you're also going to have to
outlaw fundamentalist Christian faith healing services along with
Roman Catholic novenas to St. Jude. If you see that as a valid role
of government -- protecting people from their own superstitious
beliefs -- be my guest. Just don't expect a majority of U.S. citizens
to agree with you, including most medical professionals.
>Saying it is an applied religious philosophy instead of a self-help system
>and calling it a "fixed donation" instead of a "price" does not make
>scientology, whether it "works" or not, a religion.
Of course not. What makes it a religion (at least under U.S. law) is
its claim to address spiritual matters.
Diane Richardson
ref...@bway.net
M. C. DiPietra
stav...@concentric.net wrote on 3/12/01 12:29 AM:
>
>
> Fluffygirl wrote:
>
>> (big snip)
>
>>
>>> Selling someone a system or procedure and telling them it can be used to
>>> raise the dead, cure arthritis, and make you able to throw away your
>> glasses
>>> forever,
>>
>> That is against Scn policy to do that.You are overlooking this.
Excuse me? It's in Dianetics, and seems to be a selling point.
I find citing Scn policy is useless, since is also Scn policy to be tolerant
of others' religions, yet Enid Vein and other freezoners have been harassed
and sued; the references made by LRH regarding Christianity are fairly well
known, etc...freedom of speech is also supposed to be Scn policy, yet the
practice of it is limited by fear among Scn critics and members.
If there were a method to determine these disparities of policy versus
reality of practice, it would answer many questions for many people. But
Scn, Inc. won't allow it. No one is allowed to discuss case. There is no
discourse.
>>
>>> and not being able to duplicate alleged results in a clinical
>>> setting seems to smell a lot like medical fraud,
>>
>> Of course it does. That's why it's against our religion.
>>
>>> although IANAL.
>>>
>>> Nowhere do I see, where those claims are being made, disclaimers about it
>>> being a matter of faith; instead I see a lot of pseudoscience, trotted out
>>> as decor to make scientology appear scientific.
>>
>> Please be advised that it is against Scn policy and Scn tech- therefore it's
>> against the Scn religion- to tell people that they can get cured by taking
>> these courses. I'm not saying it's never happened, I'm saying that when it
>> has, it's been directly contra to the dictates of those claimants own
>> religion.
Policy + tech = religion?
>>
>> You are overlooking that, whether deliberately or not, I don't know. I know
>> it would make it far more convenient for you to believe that this is part
>> and parcel of the Scn religion, but it is not. What happened to Raul Lopez
>> was, for example, against the Scn religion.
>>
I cannot be certain about this, for several reasons. I know you want to
believe that those practices are against your religion, and perhaps they are
against *your* religion. But Scn, Inc. operates from Source, and there are a
number of disparities, whether deliberate or not, that allow people to act
in the ways they have, cheating others while believing they are promoting
the greatest good for the greatest number of people.
So one can tell an "acceptable truth" and say it is against the religion,
but there is no means for anyone to determine whether it is or not. For
instance, you can look at the Creed and see wonderful ideals espoused, then
later on buried in some HCOB or HCOPL you see the exact opposite contained
in a directive policy letter or bulletin.
>> These are promises "reges" have NO business making and not just by the
>> non-Scientologist ideas,either. They flat-out aren't supposed to be doing
>> that.
>>
>> And it is *not* snake oil to believe that the spirit affects the body and
>> vice versa and that what occurs in auditing *may* affect that person
>> physically. It *is* snake oil AND AGAINST SCN POLICY to guarantee that it
>> would affect the person physically and how and when and where because that
>> cannot be guaranteed and also it's against Scn policy to suggest or order
>> the person to not receive real medical care. I have had , over the course of
>> my life, medicines and two surgeries administered to me as a Scientologist
>> and I've had Scn staff tell me to get various symptoms checked out at a
>> doctor's. I've seen a Scientology staffer order a "pc" to get his teeth
>> fixed at a dentist's and not to come back for any more auditing sessions
>> until they were. I know this happened, because it was my pc that this
>> happened to.
If it's against policy then why is Dianetics continued to be published
making these kinds of claims? Hell, the way it is presented is even worse
than those letters from magazine peddlers who want you to believe you've won
their sweepstakes, and those people were successfully sued over that kind of
deceptive manipulation.
>>
>> Much has been written about times where that did NOT happen, such as with
>> Raul Lopez and such as with Tory's medications, too and I am not questioning
>> the fact that those things occurred.I also don't advocate or condone them.
>> These things were contra to Scientology policy. And they were wrong for
>> other reasons besides that, obviously.
>>
>> I submit to you that you do not really know the Scn religion. You judge by
>> abuses. It is well and good that you look at such abuses that took place but
>> it is NOT well and good that you decide from your frame of reference as a
>> not fully informed non Scientologist that these are actually part and parcel
>> of the Scn religion.
>>
I can't say I know your perception of what you believe is a religion,
Claire. I think perhaps, like many New Agers who adopt "native american"
religious traditions, you take what appeals to you and disregard the rest.
I'm nowhere saying it doesn't work for you, Claire. I really dont' care
about whether it "works" because that is about as far away from what I'm
talking about as one can get. It is really irrelevant to me.
I am pointing out that there are policies that need to be discussed, and the
current state of litigative madness that Scn, Inc. lives in is not conducive
to open discourse about where these policies contradict themselves, the
Creed, and many public Scns ideas about what their "religion" consists of,
including but not limited to its creation myth, the purpose and activities
of the OSA office, and practices such as the Introspection Rundown.
I'm also not judging, as much as calling for open discourse. And I can
decide from my frame of reference that policies written by LRH are actually
part and parcel of the Scn religion, because you have told me that policy +
tech = religion. I have perhaps a more workable frame of reference as an
outsider because it doesn't matter to me one way or the other if Scn works
or not. It is vital to you that it does, though. Perhaps that makes it
easier for me to point out where it doesn't. I don't have to say ten nice
things about Scn for every bad one in order to keep believing.
So which part of the policy that was being followed when Lisa died is not
part of your religion?
-m., human being
http://mp3.com/MaggieCouncil XENU WORLD ORDER CD now available
M.C.DiPietra <mdip...@earthlink.net>, SP4, KoX
"Hell, if you understood everything I say, you'd be me!" -Miles Davis
>
Starshadow
Hash: SHA1
"Patrick Volk" <pjv...@home.com> wrote in message
news:3aaa3ff7.570352@news...
> On Fri, 9 Mar 2001 11:07:55 -0800, "Fluffygirl" <csw...@home.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Mike O'Connor" <mi...@leptonicsystems.com> wrote in message
> >news:mike-BD9AC3.1...@news2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...
> >> In article <B6CE4DF0.31560%mdip...@earthlink.net>,
> >> "M. C. DiPietra" <mdip...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> > However, I recently found an old post by Jeff Jacobsen from 22
> >> > Jul 1996. In it, he was compiling a list of places where
> >> > Dianetics and Scn make
> >health
> >> > claims. His post asked for assistance in compiling the list.
> >
> >
> >Question: how is this different from the Christian sects who lay
> >on hands and institute faith healing? Are you going to address
> >them on those, too?
>
> Answer: In the Christian sects, their belief is that the
> effectiveness of the healing effect is dependant on the faith of
> the victim. From the Scientology description, it matters on the
> faith of the healer.
> Most of the sects will tell you the victim has to believe for it
> to work. Does Scientology?
Actually, though this may be true for Christian sects, most Wiccans
and other neopagan religions have done healing work where the person
the spell is worked for doesn't necessarily believe in it. Sometimes
they aren't even told this is being done--though not in cases where
the person being focussed on might totally object to the energy
weaving being done.
Just an fyi. The focus (in my religion) is working with the energy
fields everyone's body has, not with the faith or belief factor. We
of course work these spells on top of any medical treatment being
given.
And what Claire is saying is that it is against written policy to do
this stuff without also using medical treatment, not that such
policies aren't being violated. They are.
- --
Bright Blessings,
Starshadow, KoX, SP4, Official Wiccan Chaplain ARSCC(wdne)
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Fluffygirl
"I.S.Rennie" <LIP0...@sheffield.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:3AACC37C...@sheffield.ac.uk...
I've been over that point and over that point again and again in this
thread. Have a look.
C
Starshadow
Hash: SHA1
"Dave Bird" <da...@xemu.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:YUQUgpAI...@xemu.demon.co.uk...
> In article<3aa9c...@news2.lightlink.com>, Fluffygirl
> <csw...@home.com> writes:
> >"Dave Bird" <da...@xemu.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> >news:n+p76nGt...@xemu.demon.co.uk...
> >> In article<3aa92...@news2.lightlink.com>, Fluffygirl
> >> <csw...@home.com> writes:
> >> >"Mike O'Connor" <mi...@leptonicsystems.com> wrote in message
> >> >news:mike-BD9AC3.1...@news2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...
> >> >> In article <B6CE4DF0.31560%mdip...@earthlink.net>,
> >> >> "M. C. DiPietra" <mdip...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> > However, I recently found an old post by Jeff Jacobsen from
> >> >> > 22 Jul
> >1996.
> >> >> > In it, he was compiling a list of places where Dianetics
> >> >> > and Scn make
> >> >health
> >> >> > claims. His post asked for assistance in compiling the
> >> >> > list.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >Question: how is this different from the Christian sects who
> >> >lay on hands and institute faith healing?
> >>
> >> BECAUSE, dumbo (or should I call you nelly?),
> >
> >If you are going to call me names you can piss off.
>
> Yes, I'm sure that is a convenient excuse for not answering.
>
Dave, m'dear, I wouldn't respond to someone calling names like this,
or I'd respond with better flames only, depending on mood. As Claire
is tired from surgery and doesn't respond as vitriolically as I
periodically do to such, I can see why she isn't going to bother.
- --
Bright Blessings,
Starshadow, KoX, SP4, Official Wiccan Chaplain ARSCC(wdne)
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Fluffygirl
> in article 3AAC5C84...@concentric.net, Steve Plakos at
> stav...@concentric.net wrote on 3/12/01 12:29 AM:
>
> >
> >
> > Fluffygirl wrote:
> >
> >> (big snip)
> >
> >>
> >>> Selling someone a system or procedure and telling them it can be used
to
> >>> raise the dead, cure arthritis, and make you able to throw away your
> >> glasses
> >>> forever,
> >>
> >> That is against Scn policy to do that.You are overlooking this.
>
> Excuse me? It's in Dianetics, and seems to be a selling point.
I repeat: it's against Scn policy. Stuff Hubbard wrote. It may "seem to be"
a selling point because most religions or cults or whatever that have any
mystic leanings (and Scn certainly does) will sooner or later address the
fact that what happens w/ spirit will affect body and that attitude can be
found all through DMSMH. And also, the policies I refer to were indeed
written a number of years after that book came out, which also is relevant
with respect to the impressions a person might have upon reading that book
or other Scn works.
> I find citing Scn policy is useless,
I'm telling you what is and isn't part of the religion because you are
commenting in a critical manner about what is and isn't part of the
religion.
>since is also Scn policy to be tolerant
> of others' religions, yet Enid Vein and other freezoners have been
harassed
> and sued; the references made by LRH regarding Christianity are fairly
well
> known, etc...freedom of speech is also supposed to be Scn policy, yet the
> practice of it is limited by fear among Scn critics and members.
Yes, that's true and it's deplorable.
And it's an example of the practices of a church not being consistent with
the religion.
And I keep making that distinction.
The fact that CofS personnel, like the medieval Roman Catholic Church and
like some present-day Fundamentalist Islamics, sometimes flout the dictates
of their own religion is a separate issue. A relevant one to be sure, but
not the *same* one.
>
> If there were a method to determine these disparities of policy versus
> reality of practice, it would answer many questions for many people. But
> Scn, Inc. won't allow it. No one is allowed to discuss case. There is no
> discourse.
Discussion of "case" has nothing to do with discussion (or nondiscussion) of
disparities of policy vs reality of practice.
It's an entirely different term meaning an entirely different thing. The
caveat on discussing "case" applies to extensive discussion of one's various
hangups, neuroses and getting in depth and detailed about one's auditing
sessions. It doesn't have anything to do with discussion or evaluation of
Scn policy. I am unaware of any LRH policy saying not to discuss policy.
<snip>
> >>>
> >>> Nowhere do I see, where those claims are being made, disclaimers about
it
> >>> being a matter of faith; instead I see a lot of pseudoscience, trotted
out
> >>> as decor to make scientology appear scientific.
> >>
> >> Please be advised that it is against Scn policy and Scn tech- therefore
it's
> >> against the Scn religion- to tell people that they can get cured by
taking
> >> these courses. I'm not saying it's never happened, I'm saying that when
it
> >> has, it's been directly contra to the dictates of those claimants own
> >> religion.
>
> Policy + tech = religion?
Certainly it is since we are not "people of the book" (the Bible).
All the thou shalt nots and tenets and ideas are contained in Scn policy and
Scn tech (HCOPLs, and HCOBs and other written releases and taped lectures).
We call it "policy" and "tech". It's a manmade religion. Well, I'm sure I'm
not telling you anything you didn't know. :-)
> >> You are overlooking that, whether deliberately or not, I don't know. I
know
> >> it would make it far more convenient for you to believe that this is
part
> >> and parcel of the Scn religion, but it is not. What happened to Raul
Lopez
> >> was, for example, against the Scn religion.
> >>
>
> I cannot be certain about this, for several reasons. I know you want to
> believe that those practices are against your religion,
I don't *want* to. I do know because I read the policy that says it wasn't.
It's no case of wishful thinking.
And at the same time I am aware that some personnel flout the precepts of
their own religion both in CofS and in the other examples I gave. In all
three churches each time this happened there was some rationalization from
the church about how it was really a good thing, even though Policy,
Tech,the Bible, the Koran either don't say to do it or actually say not to
do it. In the end it's just rationalization, of course, but this does not
change the fact that the dictates of the religion were flouted.
If someone wants to talk about the practices of CofS and their deeds that's
all well and good but such things need to, when applicable, be distinguished
from the actual tenets of the religion just as you would do when analyzing
pre-Reformation Christianity's tenets wrt the PRACTICES of the RCC.
I don't see you doing this wrt Scn and CofS. I believe that you use and
indicate your own anger at the deeds of others and indicate that as umbrance
at the tenets of Scn when in fact they are no such thing.
More accurate statements would have to include the fact that these abuses
and practices occurred, what the critic thought about them and the contrast
extant to the actual tenets of the religion being critiqued.
>and perhaps they are
> against *your* religion.
They are against the *Scn* religion.
> But Scn, Inc. operates from Source,
Not when they violate LRH's policy and tech, they don't. LRH was "Source"
therefore any time he said "don't do that" and someone did that then
obviously they are not operating from Source.
Because the whole and sum of the Scn religion is not contained in the
Dianetics book. The book is of an almost mystical bent- it's not mysticism
or magic but it has some points of view in common with those things (not
surprising since Hubbard had interest in those things) and as such does
emphasize what a person could do, how they could transcend the human
condition. But, like I said, it's not represented as the whole and sum of
the Scn religion in any respect and anyone who becomes a Scientologist or
even just kinda dabbles in it will learn very quickly that there is far more
to the Scn religion than that.
I mean, the Scn Creed and the Code of Honor aren't in DMSMH either but they
are still definitely part of the Scn religion.
>Hell, the way it is presented is even worse
> than those letters from magazine peddlers who want you to believe you've
won
> their sweepstakes, and those people were successfully sued over that kind
of
> deceptive manipulation.
Mind over matter type works tend to be like that. I've noticed it, too.
> >> Much has been written about times where that did NOT happen, such as
with
> >> Raul Lopez and such as with Tory's medications, too and I am not
questioning
> >> the fact that those things occurred.I also don't advocate or condone
them.
> >> These things were contra to Scientology policy. And they were wrong for
> >> other reasons besides that, obviously.
> >>
> >> I submit to you that you do not really know the Scn religion. You judge
by
> >> abuses. It is well and good that you look at such abuses that took
place but
> >> it is NOT well and good that you decide from your frame of reference as
a
> >> not fully informed non Scientologist that these are actually part and
parcel
> >> of the Scn religion.
> >>
>
> I can't say I know your perception of what you believe is a religion,
> Claire.
I think it is one if they say it is. In our society it needs to be
recognized by authority figures that it is one, and in some cases, Scn has
that recognition, and in some, it does not.
But basically, someone comes to me and says they have a religion, I believe
them. I don't pass judgment on the contents.
>I think perhaps, like many New Agers who adopt "native american"
> religious traditions, you take what appeals to you and disregard the rest.
I think that I've done this as well in some cases, with respect to some
things in CofS and in Scn, as well, but that's not the same thing as my
opinion as to what constitutes a religion and being willing to assume
something's a religion when, for some people, the jury's still out on that
one.That would be a whole 'nother thing.
> I'm nowhere saying it doesn't work for you, Claire. I really dont' care
> about whether it "works" because that is about as far away from what I'm
> talking about as one can get. It is really irrelevant to me.
>
> I am pointing out that there are policies that need to be discussed,
No, you're saying that certain policies aren't there, that you're unaware of
them, and so therefore the policies are other than they really are. As
witness the policies that say not to substitute Scn treatments for medical
treatment.
> and the
> current state of litigative madness that Scn, Inc. lives in is not
conducive
> to open discourse about where these policies contradict themselves, the
> Creed, and many public Scns ideas about what their "religion" consists of,
> including but not limited to its creation myth, the purpose and activities
> of the OSA office, and practices such as the Introspection Rundown.
Now, *those* are statements I can agree with. I see most of the things you
name in that paragraph as problems.
> I'm also not judging, as much as calling for open discourse. And I can
> decide from my frame of reference that policies written by LRH are
actually
> part and parcel of the Scn religion, because you have told me that policy
+
> tech = religion. I have perhaps a more workable frame of reference as an
> outsider because it doesn't matter to me one way or the other if Scn works
> or not.
Me either. I've said before on this ng that if the group cannot survive, if
it really could be toppled down as a result of its deeds in whole or in
part, that they don't deserve to be there.
>It is vital to you that it does, though.
Nope. I'm far more objective than you think. If I were not I could not say
the things I say here.
I already know that the tenets and practices work in my life. I'm only
interested in *those*.
> Perhaps that makes it
> easier for me to point out where it doesn't.
Nope. I have no emotional investment in the running and survival of CofS at
all. I use the ideas, I like the ideas, but you know, ideas do not die. So
I'm covered and so are my friends.
I think your anger and disagreement with many of the deeds of CofS affect
some of your critiques *Scn* because I sometimes see you mixing up the
deeds of the organization with the tenets of the religion. Not to say that
neither should be up for discussion- they both should be. But they should be
differentiated from one another.
<snip>
>
> So which part of the policy that was being followed when Lisa died is not
> part of your religion?
Not getting her the medical care she needed. Not following *her* wishes.
And, personally, in my opinion, I think when you have someone in that kind
of shape, that the next of kin, the parents, should be called right
away.That last is my personal opinion which I'm throwing in as a bonus.
C
Devoid
"Fluffygirl" <csw...@home.com> wrote in message
news:3aad3...@news2.lightlink.com...
Verbal Tech.
Devoid
Steve Plakos
"M. C. DiPietra" wrote:
> in article 3AAC5C84...@concentric.net, Steve Plakos at
> stav...@concentric.net wrote on 3/12/01 12:29 AM:
>
>
>
> Excuse me? It's in Dianetics, and seems to be a selling point.
>
> I find citing Scn policy is useless, since is also Scn policy to be tolerant
> of others' religions, yet Enid Vein and other freezoners have been harassed
> and sued; the references made by LRH regarding Christianity are fairly well
> known, etc...freedom of speech is also supposed to be Scn policy, yet the
> practice of it is limited by fear among Scn critics and members.
>
> If there were a method to determine these disparities of policy versus
> reality of practice, it would answer many questions for many people. But
> Scn, Inc. won't allow it. No one is allowed to discuss case. There is no
> discourse.
>
> Claire's claim that it is out policy is largely irrelavent because, as my
> challenge suggests, policy is only for "cover your ass" purposes. If you walk
> into Flag or CCLA they will lie to you, attempt to sell you services under false
> pretenses, and make any claim necessary to secure the sale. I've made a equitable
> proposal to her, go to Los Angeles (or Clearwater), go in the front door and say
> to them "I've got money." They'll sell you anything you want by telling you
> anything you want to hear and policy be damned.
Podkayne1
<csw...@home.com> wrote:
> > The Christian sects say "if you have faith then a cure will happen."
> > Scn,
> > Inc. coupled with claims such as "experimental proof."
>
> Well, if it had apparently happened, wouldn't that constitute
> experimental
> proof? (which sounds almost akin to "anecdotal evidence" from where I
> sit).
> I think that it would.
No. It could be the placebo effect - which is real, and AFAIK no one
knows the placebo *cause*. That's why when scientists make claims, they
have to do double-blind tests and other things that seem to be lacking
in Hubbard's research.
Faith healers usually don't claim 100% effectiveness, tell you not to
try real medicine, or charge outrageous amounts, and I protest the ones
who do, like Peter Popoff who despite being exposed as a fraud on either
60 Minutes or 20/20 over a decade ago, was on local TV a few years ago.
He's gone now, but still shows up on BET
--
You just say that because you have untreated Clue Deficit Disorder.
-- Chris Leithiser
I.S.Rennie
I did. I wasn't really aiming this against you. I was more referring
to the testimonies of people like Cheryl S who were reportedly offered
assists instead of adequate medical treatment
Fluffygirl
Oh, okay.
Well, that was wrong of them to do that.
C
William Barwell
JosyWales6 <josyw...@aol.comangetit> wrote:
>Can someone point out where the claim of increased IQ or memory is on an
>official Church site? I need the reference but I must be looking in the wrong
>place.
I don't know about their idiot website, but you will find it in
"Dianetics - The Modern Science of Mental Health", book Three,
Chapter Two, page 222.
Ungawah! You tell 'em Elron!
*** The Claims of Dianetics FAQ ***
L. Ron Hubbard's book Dianetics makes quite a few unwarranted claims
as to just what Dianetics can accomplish. This FAQ is to examine just
what Dianetics claims for those who do not want to bother to obtain and
read this miserable book to find exactly out what Hubbard claimed.
Dianetics was published in 1950, simultaneously as a book and in
the Science Fiction magazine, Astounding Science Fiction.
I will be examining a 1992 hardback edition.
Hubbard's main claims can be found in the chapters, The Scope of
Dianetics (book one, chapter one), 'The Clear' (book one chapter one),
'Psychosomatic Ilnesses' (book two chapter five) and Release or Clear,
(book three chapter two).
I am not examining all of the claims of Dianetics, but more specifically
what claims a Dianetics "clear" can achieve.
************************************************************************
What is a clear?
"A Clear (noun) is an individual who has a result of Dianetic therapy,
has neither active nor potential psychosomatic illnesses or abberations."
(Page 213)
*****
"The Clear is an unaberrated person.
..
The Clear has no engrams which can be stimulated to throw out the
correctness of computation by entering hidden or false data into it.
No aberration."
(page 144)
******
The engram is the single and sole source of aberration and psychosomatic
illnesses.
(Page 91)
********
"The purpose of therapy and its sole target is the removal of
the content of the reactive engram bank. In a release, the majority
of emotional stress is deleted from this bank. In a Clear, the entire
content is removed."
(Page 218)
*********
Yes, your 'engram bank' contains the engrams that cause abberations
and ilnesses. The goal of Dianetics is to audit out your engrams, empty
the engram bank for good, and become clear.
"Clear is the goal Dianetics therapy, a goal which some patience and
a little study will bring about".
(Page 541)
***** Your life as a Clear ******
So you extend "some practice and a little study" and you are finally
declared a Clear by a beaming Dianetics auditor. Now what?
"But a Clear is a Clear and when you see it you will know it with no
further mistake."
(Page 383)
"How can you tell a Clear? How does man measure the optimum
to man? Can he adjust to his enviroment smoothly? And far more
important, can he adjust the enviroment to him?
Sixty days and six months after a Clear has been effected,
the auditor should make a search for any neglected material. He
should question the Clear carefully as to the events of the past
interval. In such a way he can learn of any worries, concerns, or
illnesses which may have taken place and attempt to trace these
to engrams. if he cannot then find engrams, the Clear is definitely
and without question, cleared. And he will stay that way."
Whew! Finally, we are sure we are Clear!
We did it! Checked out and by golly, there is no mistake.
No more engrams.
Now for the miracles! What is behind door number three, Ron!?
***** Your new IQ *******
Yes, you always wanted to be smart! That's why you bought the book,
right? Let's see what Ron said about Clears and IQs.
"Is it any wonder, that when these demons (engram caused aberrations)
are deleted, IQ soars, as it can be observed to do in a Clear?
Add the demon circuits to the shut down aspect of restimulation
and the truth can be seen in the observation that people run on about
one-twentieth of their mental power."
(page 117)
"A Clear, for instance, has complete recall of everything which ever
happened to him, or anything he ever studied. He does mental computations,
such as those in chess, for example, which a normal would do in half an
hour, in ten or fifteen seconds."
(Page 214)
"He can do a swift study of anything within his intellectual capacity,
which is inherent and the study would be the equivalent to him of a year
or two when he was 'normal'. His vigor, persistance, and tenacity to life
are very much higher than anyone has thought possible."
(Page 214)
"IQ, unless it falls down into the feebleminded level, is no great factor.
and even then the IQ of any patient goes up like a skyrocket with
clearing and rises all the while during the work."
(Page 242)
****** A Perfect memory ******
"A Clear, for instance, has complete recall of everything that ever
happened to him, oranything he ever studied."
(Page 214)
****** Enhanced Rationality *******
"Release of such engrams means a restoration of rationality to
individual far above the current norm and a stability and
well-being greater than man thought man possessed. These engrams
have been confirmed by taking data from a child, from the mother,
and the father, and al data checked. So we are dealing here with
scientific facts which, no maytter how startling, are nonetheless
true."
****** Live longer than 'normals' ******
"What the lifespan of a Clear is cannot be answered now;
ask in a hundred years."
(Page 384)
"The deletion of engrams from the reactive bank uniformly brought
about a condition where they could recieve benefit from the
hormones, but where such artifical administration was not necessary,
save in cases of extreme age. What this means to gerontology (the
study of longevity in life) cannot at this time be estimated,
but it can be predicted with confidence that the deletion of
engrams from the reactive bank has a marked effect on the extension of
life. A hundred years from now, this data will be available, but
no Clears have lived that long as yet."
(Page 126)
******* No more accidents! ********
"Treatment for accidental injury, surgery for various things such as
malformation inherent in the body on a genetic basis, and orthopedics,
which can properly be classed under both, remain properly outside of
the field of Dianetics, although it can be remarked in passing that
almost all accidents are to be traced to dramatization of engrams and
that Clears rarely have accidents."
(Page 120-1)
******* No More Psychosmatic Illnesses ********
"About 70% of the physicians current roster of diesaess fall into the
category of psychosomatic illnesses."
(Page 119)
How this can come about can be shown by an analogic explanation
such as a schematic diagram, but we are not so much interested in
structure at this statge of the science of the mind -
because by knowing function alone we can cure aberrations and
psychosomatic illnesses everytime, predict new ills and aberrations
and generally work "miracles" as such actions were once called before
man knew anything about the mind."
(page 125)
********* Clears do not get colds *************
"Clears do not get colds."
(page 121)
********** No Migraine Headeaches ************
"Migraine headaches are psychosomatic, and with the others, are
uniformly cured by Dianetic therapy. (And the word *cured* is
used in the fullest sense.)"
(Page 121)
********** Numerous ills cured **********
"Arthritis, dermititis, allergies, asthma, some coronary
difficulties, eye trouble, bursitis, ulcers, sinusitis, ect.,
form a small section of the psychosomatic catalgue. Bizarre
aches and pains in various parts of the body are generally
psychosomatic.
********* Hubbard's classes of psychosomatic ills ***********
(All curable by Dianetics)
There are 5 classes of psychosomatic ills:
(1) Those ills resulting from mentally caused derangment in
physical fluid flow, which class subdivides into:
(1a) ...Inhibition of fluid flow
(1B) ...magnication of flow
(2) Those illnesses resulting from mental derangement of physical
growth, which class subdivides into:
(2A) ...Inhibition of growth
(2B) ...magnification of growth
(3) Those ills resulting from a predisposition to disease resulting
from a chronic psychsomatic pain in that area
(4) Those ills resulting from the perpetuation of a disease on
account of chronic pain in the area;
(5) Those ills caused by he verbal command content of engrams.
(Page 129)
******* Arthritis and constipation **********
"In Class 1A fall such ordinary things as constipation and arthritis."
(Page 129)
"..the scientific fact is that when the engram is picked up, that
arthritis vanishes and does not return and this is x-ray plate evidence."
(page 130)
"Class 1B of psychosomatic ills, magnification of fluid flow, contains
such things as high blood pressure, diarrhea, sinusitis, priapism,..
or any other physical condition resulting from a superabundance of
a fluid."
"Class 2A can cause such things as a withered arm, a foreshortened
nose, undeveloped genital organs, or any other underdevelopment of a
gland having to do with size, (which cross classes this with 1A,
hairlessness ... and in short, reduction in size of any part of
the body."
"Class 2B causes such things as oversized hands, a lengthened nose,
oversized ears, enlarged organs and other common physical
malformations. (Cancer might possibly come under this heading as
overhealing.)"
"Class 3 would include tuberculosis (some cases), liver trouble,
kidney trouble, rashes, common colds ect..."
"Class 4 Tuberculosis would be included here. Conjunctivitis, all running
sores, and any condition which refuses to heal, ect."
"Class 5 includes an enormously wide catalog of conditions, any one
of which may cross index to other classes, or which arises solely
out of engrams which dictate the presence or necessity of an illness.
"You always have colds", "I have cold feet", ect, announce a psychosomatic
illness and the mechanisms of the body can furnish one.
(Page 130-1)
"Any disease whatsoever may be precipitated by engrams."
(Page 131)
********* Engrams make childhood diseases deadly **********
"Measles, for instance may just be measels, or can be measels in company
with an engramic restimulation, in which it may be nearly or entirely
fatal."
(Page 131)
"A check of many subjects on this matter of childhood illness being
predisposed by, percipitated by, and perpetuated by engrams causes
one to wonder how violent he diseases themselves really are; they have
never been observed in a cleared child...
(Page 131-2)
********** Clears don't get ill **********
"But it remains that a Clear is not easily made ill. In an aberree
illness closely pursues mental depression (depression of the dynamic
level). The aberration of the mind and body by engrams leads, then,
not only to psychosomatic ills, but to actual pathology, which hitherto
has been considered more or less independent of the mental state."
(Page 132)
"It is a scientific fact that no psychosomatic ill exists without an
aberration. And it is true that no aberration exists without a potential
or actual psychosomatic ill."
(Page 135)
******** Perversion **********
"The sexual pervert (and by this term Dianetics, to be brief,
includes any and all forms of deviation in in dynamic two such as
homosexuality, lesbianism, sexual sadism ect., and all down the
catalogue of Ellis and Kraft-Ebbing) is actually quite ill physically.
(Page 135)
"Hence the pervert containing hundreds and hundreds of vicious
engrams has little choice between being dead or being a pervert.
But with an effective science to handle this problem, a society
that would continue to endure perversion and all its sad and sordid
effects doesn't deserve to survive."
(Page 136)
*************************************************************************
(End)