Question to (Ex?)Members, concerning other religions
Dave Bird---St Hippo of Augustine
Scientology presents itself in W.I.S. as "an applied religious
philiosophy" compatible with other religious beliefs. I know
this is a somewhat disputed statement but....
In your estimate, what percentage of staff or public Scientologists
(in the area/nation where you were a member) were in fact active
believers in other religions during their membership?
What religion and denomination were they??
|~/ |~/
~~|;'^';-._.-;'^';-._.-;'^';-._.-;'^';-._.-;||';-._.-;'^';||_.-;'^'0-|~~
P | Woof Woof, Glug Glug ||____________|| 0 | P
O | Who Drowned the Judge's Dog? | . . . . . . . '----. 0 | O
O | answers on *---|_______________ @__o0 | O
L |{a href="news:alt.religion.scientology"}{/a}_____________|/_______| L
and{a href="http://www.xemu.demon.co.uk/clam/lynx/q0.html"}{/a}XemuSP4(:)
gerry armstrong
On Mon, 20 Oct 1997 12:19:01 +0100, Dave Bird---St Hippo of Augustine
<da...@xemu.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
> Scientology presents itself in W.I.S. as "an applied religious
> philiosophy" compatible with other religious beliefs. I know
> this is a somewhat disputed statement but....
>
> In your estimate, what percentage of staff or public Scientologists
> (in the area/nation where you were a member) were in fact active
> believers in other religions during their membership?
>
Zero!
> What religion and denomination were they??
>
I recently saw an ethics order on someone kicking them out of
Scientology for remaining a member of the Methodist Church.
It was absolutely forbidden in every part of the Scientology
enterprise where I was (Vancouver, Apollo, Dunedin, Clearwater, La
Quinta, Gilman Hotsprings, Los Angeles) for anyone to be an active
believer in any [other] religion and remain in the org. There was a
couple in the RPF in Clearwater who announced their belief in God.
They were guarded, sec checked, made to sign "crimes" culled from
their pc folders, made to accept a "freeloader debt," and finally
"off-loaded."
It was common "knowledge" in the organization that people who believed
in God were "psychotic" and were treated as such. Such people could of
course be used to forward Scientology's public relations goals.
During the "Apollo" years, the 400+ people on board never admitted to
being Scientologists, and it was a security violation, punishable with
a "treason condition," if anyone let slip to a "wog" that he or she
was a Scientologist, or that Scientology was operating on board. Our
cover was "Operation and Transport Corporation" of Panama, a business
management company. If anyone was asked by a wog in the ports we
visited what his or her religion was, the person was drilled to state
the religion he or she was raised in; e.g., Catholic, Presbyterian,
Lutheran.
This shows the facility of Scientologists in lying. The same facility
is shown in the organization's claim of compatibility with [other]
religions. Scientology at its core is dedicated to the destruction of
[other] religions. Which to the facile Scientologists is just another
way of saying that they are all compatible.
Gerry
Joe Harrington
Dave Bird---St Hippo of Augustine wrote:
>
> Scientology presents itself in W.I.S. as "an applied religious
> philiosophy" compatible with other religious beliefs. I know
> this is a somewhat disputed statement but....
>
> In your estimate, what percentage of staff or public Scientologists
> (in the area/nation where you were a member) were in fact active
> believers in other religions during their membership?
>
Based upon my recollection of the data in personal history statements in
the pc folders, I'd say that Catholicism is the highest group
represented as prior religious training/orientation.
Joe
Joe Harrington
Joe Harrington wrote:
>
> gerry armstrong wrote:
> >
> > On Mon, 20 Oct 1997 12:19:01 +0100, Dave Bird---St Hippo of Augustine
> > <da...@xemu.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Scientology presents itself in W.I.S. as "an applied religious
> > > philiosophy" compatible with other religious beliefs. I know
> > > this is a somewhat disputed statement but....
> > >
> > > In your estimate, what percentage of staff or public Scientologists
> > > (in the area/nation where you were a member) were in fact active
> > > believers in other religions during their membership?
> > >
> >
> > > What religion and denomination were they??
> > >
> > Scientology for remaining a member of the Methodist Church.
> >
> > It was absolutely forbidden in every part of the Scientology
> > enterprise where I was (Vancouver, Apollo, Dunedin, Clearwater, La
> > Quinta, Gilman Hotsprings, Los Angeles) for anyone to be an active
> > believer in any [other] religion and remain in the org. There was a
> > couple in the RPF in Clearwater who announced their belief in God.
> > They were guarded, sec checked, made to sign "crimes" culled from
> > their pc folders, made to accept a "freeloader debt," and finally
> > "off-loaded."
>
> continously subject to, has a specific clause that prohibits one from
> engaging in any ritual ritual or practice. Perhaps someone who has a
> copy of it can post the relevant sections.
>
Correct that to read "Religious ritual or practice".
Joe
Joe Harrington
Joe
p/m
NUKEWASTER
As a child of SO/then staff members, I knew zero persons in SO or on staff who
practiced another religion. As SO, a request to one's superior for "time off
to attend XYZ church/religious services" would have gotten you bounced into
RPF land faster than one could catch their breath.
I am aware of some long-time public scientologists who practice a very
liberal/reform version of Judaism. I also know of one Catholic priest who was
on course as public at FSO in the 1980's. Whether it was to become a
scientologist, or just to study scientology for his order of Catholics, I do
not know.
Secret Squirrel
[ Son of Xenu ] (Somebody's got to look afer Pop)
[ Mountain Interior ]
[ Las Palmas ] 20 Oct 1997
[ Teegeeack ]
Dave Bird---St Hippo of Augustine wrote:
> In your estimate, what percentage of staff or public Scientologists
> (in the area/nation where you were a member) were in fact active
> believers in other religions during their membership?
>
> What religion and denomination were they??
If by "active" you mean regularly attending Church, I would have to
say very few, none of them staff members. I did know one couple who
came to Saint Hill (as public, NOT staff) and were regularly attending
Church services. They were routed to Ethics under the "other practices"
policy where pressure was put on them to give up the Church services.
I don't remember what denomination they were or the eventual outcome,
but I remember at least one of them wasn't very happy about it.
Of course, it would simply have been impractical for staff to take
part in Church services. And beyond that it is standard Tech/Policy
for Scientologists to be dedicated (i.e. open-mindedness prohibited,
other practices prohibited, etc.). Actively participating in another
religion just wouldn't have been on-source!
Now if you are refering to people coming from other religious
backgrounds and maintaining their religious beliefs in so far as it
is possible within Scio, I would say a very high percentage of those
with such beliefs tried to rationalize them within the Scientology
belief system.
In my own case, there were some definate conflicts between Scio
beliefs and my previous beliefs. I found it necessary to adjust
my beliefs to come up with a compromise that was somewhat (but not
totally) compatible with these belief systems. Of course, this
compromise was totally incompatible with the upper level materials,
but I didn't know that at the time.
I now believe firmly that the whole purpose of Scientology's
position is purely and simply a device to allow it to present
itself as a religion without requiring "parishoners" to have any
specific theological beliefs until they are far enough into
it that they're not likely to leave when they find out Scio's
true beliefs, or they've already forked over the dough.
SON OF XENU
[Pesky Body Thetans got you down? Try Xenu's Magic Flea Powder!!]
[Recommended by 9 of 10 Scientologists! (Since 74,694,341 B.C.) ]
Jana Moreillon
Dave Bird---St Hippo of Augustine wrote:
> In article <62gav5$2...@drn.zippo.com>,
> Warrior <war...@electrotex.com> writes:
> >In article <mWyNrUAl...@xemu.demon.co.uk>, Dave Bird wrote:
I was a public member for 35 years. During that time, I knew one person
who said that she was a practicing Catholic. She did it at the request
of the Guardian's Office.In fact, there were (are) NO members of the
huborg who are also practicing members of any other religion. If one
insists on retaining a belief in a religion, he is ordered to a Remedy
B, which is to handle his allegiance to ANYTHING other than huborg.
Other actions which address the "other Practices" issue are the various
Green Forms wherein the handlings can be found. Confessionals are also
used.
jana
> >>
> >> Scientology presents itself in W.I.S. as "an applied religious
> >> philiosophy" compatible with other religious beliefs. I know
> >> this is a somewhat disputed statement but....
> >>
> >> In your estimate, what percentage of staff or public Scientologists
>
> >> (in the area/nation where you were a member) were in fact active
> >> believers in other religions during their membership?
> >
> > In the Sea Org in PAC where I was, the percentage of active
> believers
> >in other religions was ZERO. The only "religious" belief that they
> actively
> >practiced was _Scientology_. Of my 8 years in the Sea Org I know of
> two
> >staff members (out of hundreds) who were "offloaded" and declared
> "PTS
> >Type H" for believing in Christianity. They were Jim Bird and John
> Richards,
> >if my memory serves me well.
>
> OK -- Sea Org weeds out all "mixing of practices". How about non-SO
> staff, and public, in various countries. Anyone?
>
> |~/ |~/
> ~~|;'^';-._.-;'^';-._.-;'^';-._.-;'^';-._.-;||';-._.-;'^';||_
Martin Hunt
In article <344bda83...@news.rapidnet.net>,
arms...@ntonline.com (gerry armstrong) wrote:
>It was absolutely forbidden in every part of the Scientology
>enterprise where I was (Vancouver, Apollo, Dunedin, Clearwater, La
>Quinta, Gilman Hotsprings, Los Angeles) for anyone to be an active
>believer in any [other] religion and remain in the org.
I never met a single Scientologist who was a member of a religion;
religious beliefs were a sign of "insanity" or "aberration", and
some religions (those that involved meditation, eg) were considered
"squirrel" and "taking other paths" instead of following the "route
out" (ie, of the insanity and degradation of the wog world and
moving up the bridge).
Scientology is irreligious in nature. It is, recall, a "100%
workable technology" for curing the mind of what ails it. No one
I met in it thought of it itself in religious terms, never mind
being members of religions themselves - that would be "dramatizing
bank."
--
Cogito, ergo sum. Use "Xenu" in Subject: line of email.
Future808
A good subject which gets out the two faces of the Co$$$$.
While I was in the Sea Org, I asked around about this topic. I found some
interesting things. I, myself found out that in order to be in the CMO, one
qualification what that you have scn as your only religion.
Yep, there is an actual Flag Order, called, I believe, "CMO Requirements" or
some such thing.
Supposedly you could have someone be in the Sea Org and also believe in another
religion - but you are kidding yourself if you think this is actually allowed.
I saw a woman Fitness Boarded for being a Mormon while being in the Sea Org. I
also came across a case of a man who was "let go" from the Sea Org who held
the post of chaplin at AOLA. They got rid of him because he was a real
preacher - Episcapalian, I think.
I attended an IAS fundraising event a few years back. It turned out to be one
of those eViLpsYCHDrugLorDCOMpanies is taking over the world type of reg
events. This "reg" (a woman) informed us that all the world's major religions
had been infiltrated by the evilpsychdruglordzombies and that the CoS was
their only hope. Then she went on to further slam other religions and extoll
scn. Hello Bait and Switch.
And lets not forget that there exists an HCOB for "Handiling Other Practices"
which is anything _other_ than elron. Just once I'd like to the "church"
deliver what it promises.
Ex-CMO
"People who would aspire to transform the world should start by
transforming their own life and let it serve as an inspiration for
others. Hubbard wrote best about what he most needed to learn."
- Joe Harrington <joe...@worldnet.att.net>
William Barwell
In article <19971023154...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
Future808 <futu...@aol.com> wrote:
>A good subject which gets out the two faces of the Co$$$$.
>
>While I was in the Sea Org, I asked around about this topic. I found some
> interesting things. I, myself found out that in order to be in the CMO, one
> qualification what that you have scn as your only religion.
>Yep, there is an actual Flag Order, called, I believe, "CMO Requirements" or
> some such thing.
I would definitely Like to see this myself.
I have found this whole thread amazing and disgusting. This cult is so
full of lies and deceits. By now I'd think I was cynical enough I would
not be flabbergasted by anything this cult does, but this whole new facet
of Scientology did just that. I hope any other ex-members with
observations like these also post theirs. It is important for me to see
the lies, in this case the idea Scientology is compatible with other
religions, so thoroughly exposed here.
Amazing, just amazing.
>
>Supposedly you could have someone be in the Sea Org and also believe in another
> religion - but you are kidding yourself if you think this is actually allowed.
> I saw a woman Fitness Boarded for being a Mormon while being in the Sea Org. I
> also came across a case of a man who was "let go" from the Sea Org who held
> the post of chaplin at AOLA. They got rid of him because he was a real
> preacher - Episcapalian, I think.
>
So if "What is Scientology?" makes any claims that Scientology is
compatible with other religions, we must account this as yet another grand
lie being propagated by this cult to an unsuspecting world.
>I attended an IAS fundraising event a few years back. It turned out to be one
> of those eViLpsYCHDrugLorDCOMpanies is taking over the world type of reg
> events. This "reg" (a woman) informed us that all the world's major religions
> had been infiltrated by the evilpsychdruglordzombies and that the CoS was
> their only hope. Then she went on to further slam other religions and extoll
> scn. Hello Bait and Switch.
>
>And lets not forget that there exists an HCOB for "Handiling Other Practices"
> which is anything _other_ than elron. Just once I'd like to the "church"
> deliver what it promises.
>
I'd like to see that too.
What an amazing thread.
Pope Charles
SubGenius Pope Of Houston
Slack!
William Barwell
In article <34510c83...@snews.zippo.com>,
Ted Mayett (KoX) <te...@skylink.net> wrote:
>On Mon, 20 Oct 1997 12:19:01 +0100, Dave Bird---St Hippo of Augustine
><da...@xemu.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Scientology presents itself in W.I.S. as "an applied religious
>> philiosophy" compatible with other religious beliefs. I know
>> this is a somewhat disputed statement but....
>>
>> In your estimate, what percentage of staff or public Scientologists
>> (in the area/nation where you were a member) were in fact active
>> believers in other religions during their membership?
>>
>
>internet. Never met or heard of a member such as i was, attending or
>even talking about going to some Church. There is no aspect of
>"faith, prayer, or belief" in this criminal cult. Non-internet
>members today do not even know they have religious beliefs.
>The top members do of course, but not the local org members.
>
>> What religion and denomination were they??
>>
much anymore? That this was a relic from the earlier era when
donning preachers togs to fool the wogs was in vogue?
Steve Jebson
Martin Hunt wrote:
>
> In article <344bda83...@news.rapidnet.net>,
> arms...@ntonline.com (gerry armstrong) wrote:
>
> >It was absolutely forbidden in every part of the Scientology
> >enterprise where I was (Vancouver, Apollo, Dunedin, Clearwater, La
> >Quinta, Gilman Hotsprings, Los Angeles) for anyone to be an active
> >believer in any [other] religion and remain in the org.
>
> I never met a single Scientologist who was a member of a religion;
> religious beliefs were a sign of "insanity" or "aberration", and
> some religions (those that involved meditation, eg) were considered
> "squirrel" and "taking other paths" instead of following the "route
> out" (ie, of the insanity and degradation of the wog world and
> moving up the bridge).
>
These answers are a little more extreme than I recall from my own ex-
perience. In the Sea Org I certainly never knew anybody who was ac-
tively involved in any meaningful sense with any other religion. Having
never seen it, I can't say for certain what would have happened, but
I don't believe it would have been allowed at all.
However, the Sea Org is the fanatical core and discipline is, or at
least
used to be, much looser in other Orgs. I told the person who recruited
me for staff in a Class IV Org that I considered myself an active Jew.
He was actually a bit worried about this and left the room to consult
with somebody, probably the GO. But he came back and said it wasn't a
problem.
For a staff member in practive to be seriously involved in any other
activity, religious or otherwise, causes problems simply in terms of
time and energy - they want every hour and minute you can possibly spare
to be devoted to your 'work' as an unpaid planet-clearer. I have a
number of hobbies and interests, my religion being just one, and they
pretty much all went into hiding while I was on staff, just from a lack
of resources to pursue them.
Public members are permitted to practice other religions, and I knew
some, a small percentage, who did. They don't go directly after your
belief, but again, they will go after any time or money that a public
person 'wastes' - which means spending them on something other than
$cientology or making money to hand over to $cientology.