e-mail from Noel Nolst Trenite
brett herrly
Serious mistakes have been made in the research that was directed by Koos
Nolst
Trenite. The hidden intentions of Koos, of who he actually is, are now being
looked into by me (Tulka) and Noel. Koos had motives of self-importance and
absolute certainty of his rightness.
I received severe physical beatings by Koos, and severe vulgar language
shouted
at me by Koos, for six to 24 hours at a time. This Koos justified by various
means, for instance that I refused to see his viewpoint, or that I was being
mindcontroled by various people to not agree to him. I at that time accepted
those physical beatings and vulgar language, because Koos made me believe,
during and afterwards, that I was making it necessary for him to so called
"restrain" me.
No matter how true you might think the data to be, it still does not justify
those physical actions, and certainly not, if they are supposedly coming
form
an Archangel.
As you may have noticed when reading or listening to the data written by
Koos
or recorded from sessions, the data was not looked or discussed or corrected
for errors by anyone else than Koos himself. This already disqualifies the
data
form being research data. It is, as a matter of fact, and especially under
those circumstances, only information that Koos intended to use in order to
achieve justification for is actions.
The physical violence and vulgar language by Koos, is not something new. He
did
the same to Freya and also to Jutta, for his same reasons. This behavior of
his
is not in any way justifiable, by anything.
The Ambassador for Mankind Foundation will be closed. Koos is at the moment
in
a mental hospital, and will be staying there for an unknown amount of time.
I still want to find out what actually is the truth behind all the data that
I
have given in the sessions, and I will look into it in the future, if anyone
else is also interested in hearing the results, just let me know.
I and Noel are at the moment cleaning up the rests of Koos' mess, and are
tring
to start a new life. I will be returning to San Francisco Bay Area, Noel
will
be staring a new life in Germany. Any support that you can give us, if
emotional, or even physical, if by helpful contacts, or even financially, to
help us through this time.
With love from,
Me (Tulka) and Noel
Noel Nolst Trenite
Herbstwiesen 10
D-91090 Gaiganz
Germany
Tel: +49 9199 697149
E-Mail: Noel....@Trenite.de
brett herrly
But, this same thing is posted on their web site.
"brett herrly" <bodh...@charter.net> wrote in message
news:st2d4ca...@corp.supernews.com...
John Dorsay
>
> "brett herrly" <bodh...@charter.net> posted:
>
> >To all who have been and are involved,
> >
> >Serious mistakes have been made in the research that was directed by Koos
> >Nolst
> >Trenite. The hidden intentions of Koos, of who he actually is, are now being
> >looked into by me (Tulka) and Noel.
>
>
> > Koos had motives of self-importance and
> >absolute certainty of his rightness.
>
>
> >The Ambassador for Mankind Foundation will be closed.
>
>
> > Koos is at the moment
> >in
> >a mental hospital, and will be staying there for an unknown amount of time.
>
>
> >I still want to find out what actually is the truth behind all the data that
> >I
> >have given in the sessions, and I will look into it in the future, if anyone
> >else is also interested in hearing the results, just let me know.
>
> technique"--"e-meter"-"verified" "brainstorming".
>
> It doesn't work very well.
>
> >I and Noel are at the moment cleaning up the rests of Koos' mess, and are
> >tring
> >to start a new life. I will be returning to San Francisco Bay Area, Noel
> >will
> >be staring a new life in Germany. Any support that you can give us, if
> >emotional, or even physical, if by helpful contacts, or even financially, to
> >help us through this time.
> >
> >With love from,
> >
> >Me (Tulka) and Noel
> >
> >
> >
> >Noel Nolst Trenite
> >Herbstwiesen 10
> >D-91090 Gaiganz
> >Germany
> >
> >Tel: +49 9199 697149
> >E-Mail: Noel....@Trenite.de
>
>
> (And what's all this about murder?)
My chest tightened when I read Tulka's message. If it is even half
true, it is utterly terrifying. How would one begin to undo the
trauma? I wonder if they still have contact with their mother?
--
Regards, John
Exceedingly Rude and Discourteous Psychiatric Pawn
Read about Scientology and the abuse of survivors of brain injury:
mimus
I saw
many people
reduced to
incoherent babbling,
stripping off clothes,
crawling around on the ground,
banging heads, limbs and other body parts
against furniture and walls,
barking,
losing all sense of one's identity
and intense and persistent suicidal ideation.
--Declaration of Andre Tabayoyon
I'm an OT.--Lisa McPherson
If you imagine 40-50 Scientologists
posting on the Internet every few days,
we'll just run the SP's right off the system.
It will be quite simple, actually.
--Elaine Siegel, OSA INT (1996)
Case 5/BTLA/SP1/BAD
Terra Xenu
Rustin Parr
any standards other than Trenite's. Can you imagine what life must be
like around the Trenite household on a daily basis? Sheesh, I think
"Big Brother" (the t.v. show) picked the wrong home to film in.
brett herrly wrote:
>
> To all who have been and are involved,
>
> Serious mistakes have been made in the research that was directed by Koos
> Nolst
> Trenite. The hidden intentions of Koos, of who he actually is, are now being
> looked into by me (Tulka) and Noel. Koos had motives of self-importance and
> absolute certainty of his rightness.
>
> The Ambassador for Mankind Foundation will be closed. Koos is at the moment
> in
> a mental hospital, and will be staying there for an unknown amount of time.
>
> I still want to find out what actually is the truth behind all the data that
> I
> have given in the sessions, and I will look into it in the future, if anyone
> else is also interested in hearing the results, just let me know.
>
J. R. Ford
Kinda like putting a criminal in prison.
Its too bad the cult of $cientology ever got ahold of him. I pretty
sure that is what happened to his mind. He's a good example of what
can happen with those amature psychs try to play god.
Monica Pignotti
This is yet another sad example of someone who was very likely unstable
to begin with, being pushed over the edge by involvement with the
CofS. He's not the first one, nor is he likely to be the last. I just
hope he is finally able to get the help he has been needing for years
and my heart goes out to his family who is now having to pick up the
pieces.
--
Monica Pignotti
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Starshadow
> I thought this was a joke at first, because I thought Noel was Koos.
> But, this same thing is posted on their web site.
>
Thanks for the information. I need the website url again, if you please.
Appreciate it.
--
Bright Blessings,
Starshadow (SP4, KoX) (Yes, I have an @home account now. )
(stars...@starshadow.net still works)
"Feminism--the radical notion that women are people, too"
>
> "brett herrly" <bodh...@charter.net> wrote in message
> news:st2d4ca...@corp.supernews.com...
JimDBB
>From: "brett herrly" bodh...@charter.net
>Date: 9/26/00 6:42 PM Central
Koos is a dedicated scientologist. What he did must have been for the
'greater' good. Koos, as a scientologist who beleives that psychiatry is the
enemy of mankind, should not be in a mental hospital. He should be in
scientology isolation and in the RPF.
JimDBB
Ralph Hilton
wrote:
>
>"brett herrly" <bodh...@charter.net> wrote in message
>news:st2dhum...@corp.supernews.com...
>> I thought this was a joke at first, because I thought Noel was Koos.
>> But, this same thing is posted on their web site.
>>
>
>
> Thanks for the information. I need the website url again, if you please.
>Appreciate it.
http://www.ambassadorformankind.net/
I received a copy in mail from Noel also.
--
Ralph Hilton
http://www.fzint.org/rhilton
Freezone International: http://www.fzint.org
C-Meter: http://www.inquisitive-instruments.co.uk/
Steve Zadarnowski
>I still want to find out what actually is the truth behind
>all the data that I have given in the sessions, and I will
>look into it in the future, if anyone else is also interested
>in hearing the results, just let me know.
The truth? The truth is that their mutual fruitcakery has
ended up with Koos under medical supervision, and it looks
like his other half in the "let's play auditors" game won't
be far behind.
I must say, I never saw it coming, but then we never really
do, even if well acquainted the person. I'm not surprised -
he was genuinely cracked to the core as I so often took
the liberty to point out.
Looks like he really did alienate everbody after all.
S
---
"If it smells like ass, its Scientology!"
"Just bum data, bum data, bum data, bum data,
alter-is, alter-is, bum data." - LRH, SHSBC
Iain Rowe Industries
>
> Steve Zadarnowski (fan...@iinet.com.au) wrote:
> >I must say, I never saw it coming, but then we never really
> >do, even if well acquainted the person. I'm not surprised -
>
> person who got anywhere near enough to see, suspect,
> name the truth, or ask the hard questions.
Well now, we could see poor Koos had serious problems by looking at his
website.
CB you didn't see it when it was up? Koos spoke about being "much
better than everyone else". That he had all these unprovable secrets and
theories which looked more like those from a fictional American TV show.
When I first visited Koos site I thought he was joking. But when I saw
the request for donations it then appeared he really was in need of
moral guidance.
I will add there were certain people on this very newsgroup harassing
and namecalling against Koos. It's not wise to do that to someone with
such problems.
As a matter of fact, I believe it's illegal both in America and Germany.
If the information we've thus far seen on Koos is accurate, an
investigation into the harassment against Koos is be warranted.
Iain
eldonbraun
Iain Rowe Industries <nos...@spamless.spam> wrote:
> CB Willis wrote:
> >
> > Steve Zadarnowski (fan...@iinet.com.au) wrote:
> > >I must say, I never saw it coming, but then we never really
> > >do, even if well acquainted the person. I'm not surprised -
> >
> > keep them from seeing what was going on. Heaven help the
> > person who got anywhere near enough to see, suspect,
> > name the truth, or ask the hard questions.
>
> Well now, we could see poor Koos had serious problems by looking at
his
> website.
>
> CB you didn't see it when it was up? Koos spoke about being "much
> better than everyone else". That he had all these unprovable secrets
and
> theories which looked more like those from a fictional American TV
show.
>
> When I first visited Koos site I thought he was joking. But when I saw
> the request for donations it then appeared he really was in need of
> moral guidance.
>
> I will add there were certain people on this very newsgroup harassing
> and namecalling against Koos. It's not wise to do that to someone with
> such problems.
I agree. When i first saw Koos' posts and even when I looked at those
"auditing sessions" on his website, I thought it was a parody! Soon I
realized that he actually believed it. But there was an underlying
coherence to his fantasies, and he did express himself articulately in
some ways.
I only hope he is able to regain some sense of reality under proper
care. If he does, he will have quite a story to tell. Let's pray for
him, or beam him our best wishes, or do whatever we can do to suport his
recovery.
>
> As a matter of fact, I believe it's illegal both in America and
Germany.
>
> If the information we've thus far seen on Koos is accurate, an
> investigation into the harassment against Koos is be warranted.
>
Dave Bird
>CB you didn't see it when it was up? Koos spoke about being "much
>better than everyone else". That he had all these unprovable secrets and
>theories which looked more like those from a fictional American TV show.
>
>When I first visited Koos site I thought he was joking. But when I saw
>the request for donations it then appeared he really was in need of
>moral guidance.
Mr Troll, he required a horse-syringe of anti-psychotic drugs
in the ass, to bring his cracked brain back to reality.
Koos was quite simply an insane megalomaniac in need of medication:
however, only a very small number of such people are actually violent.
|~/ |~/
~~|;'^';-._.-;'^';-._.-;'^';-._.-;'^';-._.-;||';-._.-;'^';||_.-;'^'0-|~~
P | Woof Woof, Glug Glug ||____________|| 0 | P
O | Who Drowned the Judge's Dog? | . . . . . . . '----. 0 | O
O | answers on *---|_______________ @__o0 | O
L |<a href="news:alt.religion.scientology"></a>_____________|/_______| L
www.xemu.demon.co.uk 2B0D 5195 337B A3E6 DDAC BD38 7F2F FD8E 7391 F44F
Reverend Fredric L. Rice
>CB Willis wrote:
>> Steve Zadarnowski (fan...@iinet.com.au) wrote:
>>> I must say, I never saw it coming, but then we never really
>>> do, even if well acquainted the person. I'm not surprised -
>> keep them from seeing what was going on. Heaven help the
>> person who got anywhere near enough to see, suspect,
>> name the truth, or ask the hard questions.
> Well now, we could see poor Koos had serious
> problems by looking at his website.
One finds the same thing at http://www.scientology.org/
---
Send information concerning incidents of racketeering and
terrorism by the Scientology cult to the Domestic Terrorism
Task Force at nor...@fbi.gov http://www.skeptictank.org/
CB Willis
>Iain Rowe Industries <nos...@spamless.spam> wrote:
>>CB Willis wrote:
>>> Steve Zadarnowski (fan...@iinet.com.au) wrote:
>>>> I must say, I never saw it coming, but then we never really
>>>> do, even if well acquainted the person. I'm not surprised -
>>> keep them from seeing what was going on. Heaven help the
>>> person who got anywhere near enough to see, suspect,
>>> name the truth, or ask the hard questions.
>> Well now, we could see poor Koos had serious
>> problems by looking at his website.
>One finds the same thing at http://www.scientology.org/
FREDRIC,
PLEASE GET YOUR ATTRIBUTIONS STRAIGHT - I SAID *NONE* OF THE ABOVE.
- CBW
Monica Pignotti
Iain Rowe Industries <nos...@spamless.spam> wrote:
> >
> > Steve Zadarnowski (fan...@iinet.com.au) wrote:
> > >I must say, I never saw it coming, but then we never really
> > >do, even if well acquainted the person. I'm not surprised -
> >
> > keep them from seeing what was going on. Heaven help the
> > person who got anywhere near enough to see, suspect,
> > name the truth, or ask the hard questions.
>
>Well now, we could see poor Koos had serious problems by looking at his
>website.
Of course that was obvious but most psychotic people, even
schizophrenic people, are not violent and Koos wasn't the only person
who was delusional after leaving Scientology.
--
Monica Pignotti
Rebecca Hartong
pign...@my-deja.com wrote on 10/1/00 4:08 PM:
> In article <39D5B8BE...@spamless.spam>,
> Iain Rowe Industries <nos...@spamless.spam> wrote:
>> CB Willis wrote:
>>>
>>> Steve Zadarnowski (fan...@iinet.com.au) wrote:
>>>> I must say, I never saw it coming, but then we never really
>>>> do, even if well acquainted the person. I'm not surprised -
>>>
>>> keep them from seeing what was going on. Heaven help the
>>> person who got anywhere near enough to see, suspect,
>>> name the truth, or ask the hard questions.
>>
>> Well now, we could see poor Koos had serious problems by looking at his
>> website.
>
> Of course that was obvious but most psychotic people, even
> schizophrenic people, are not violent...
I'm glad you added that, Monica. Indeed, the great majority of violent crime
is *not* committed by people who would be considered mentally ill. Although
in Koos' case, it certainly appears that his mental illness was a factor in
his alleged violent behavior, the presence of mental illness in general--or
of psychotic symptoms in particular--is not a good predictor of violent
behavior.
eboh...@omsdev.com
> I'm glad you added that, Monica. Indeed, the great majority of violent crime
> is *not* committed by people who would be considered mentally ill. Although
> in Koos' case, it certainly appears that his mental illness was a factor in
> his alleged violent behavior, the presence of mental illness in general--or
> of psychotic symptoms in particular--is not a good predictor of violent
> behavior.
Except, IIRC, in persons with concurrent substance-abuse problems.
Anyone know if Koos was alcoholic or on other drugs?
Iain Rowboat Industries
>
> Rebecca Hartong <praet...@cox.rr.com> wrote:
> > I'm glad you added that, Monica. Indeed, the great majority of violent crime
> > is *not* committed by people who would be considered mentally ill. Although
> > in Koos' case, it certainly appears that his mental illness was a factor in
>
> Anyone know if Koos was alcoholic or on other drugs?
Some people are always tryin' to blame a mental illness, alcohol or
drugs for their actions.
The day Koos admits to the wrongs he has committed and accepts full
responsibility for what he has done, is the day he's on the road to
recovery.
Koos will not get better by being told he has a mental illness that can
make him break the law.
In fact, if the German government allows any of its "government licensed
counselors" to tell Koos this, the German government should be sued to
make it provide counseling which teaches manners, respect for all people
and the difference between right from wrong.
Scientology is to be commended for its work in lobbying governments to
stop such goofy practices.
Iain Rowboat Industries
=====================================================================================
The legal definition of insanity is "the person does not know right from
wrong".
=====================================================================================
The Catholic Church officially disregards the psychology field, teaching
students in Catholic school to ignore the psychology field entirely.
The Church of Scientology agrees wholeheartedly with the Catholic
Church. Scientology takes it a step farther by actively lobbying
governments to force laws upon the psychology field which will protect
innocent, law abiding people.
=====================================================================================
Monica Pignotti
eboh...@omsdev.com wrote:
> Rebecca Hartong <praet...@cox.rr.com> wrote:
>>I'm glad you added that, Monica. Indeed, the great majority of
>>violent crime is *not* committed by people who would be considered
>>mentally ill. Although in Koos' case, it certainly appears that his
>>presence of mental illness in general--or of psychotic symptoms in
>>particular--is not a good predictor of violent behavior.
>
> Anyone know if Koos was alcoholic or on other drugs?
No, he tested negative and I'm not surprised, given his belief system.
Monica Pignotti
Iain Rowboat Industries <nos...@spamless.spam> wrote:
>The legal definition of insanity is "the person does not know right
>from wrong".
By that definition, Koos was definitely not sane. It was obvious from
his years of posting that he was firmly convinced that he was doing
what was right.
>The Catholic Church officially disregards the psychology field,
>teaching students in Catholic school to ignore the psychology field
>entirely. The Church of Scientology agrees wholeheartedly with the
>Catholic Church. Scientology takes it a step farther by actively
>lobbying governments to force laws upon the psychology field which
>will protect innocent, law abiding people.
I don't know where you got that information about the Catholic church
and Catholic schools but it is definitely not correct. I happened to
have graduated from Fordham University (a Catholic institution)and work
for a Catholic hospital and can tell you that the field of psychology
has not been ignored at all in these institutions. To compare the CofS
to the Catholic church in this regard, is absurd.
ptsc
wrote:
Ignore this TROLL.
He has posted under a dozen different identities, all from the same IP address,
all TROLLS.
He has posted as:
Iain Rowe Industries
George Rowe Industries
gamer10
Tim
Juan
James Kent
George McFadden
Josh
George Ackerman
Joe Spinelli
Hey there
Josh
Joe
Todd Johnston
And that's just for starters.
When pressed on this last time he was here, he lied and claimed that his STATIC
@home IP address was a hub used by many people. He was then unable to explain
why four of his different sock puppets posted the same exact message.
You can see all the evidence about this TROLL at
http://www.deja.com/[ST_rn=ps]/qs.xp?ST=PS&svcclass=dnyr&firstsearch=yes&preserve=1&QRY=24.13.89.204&defaultOp=AND&DBS=1&OP=dnquery.xp&LNG=english&subjects=&groups=&authors=&fromdate=&todate=&showsort=date&maxhits=100
Or by searching for IP address 24.13.89.204 on Dejanews Power Search.
If it says 24.13.89.204 it is a TROLL.
ptsc
ptsc
>In article <39D89968...@spamless.spam>,
> Iain Rowboat Industries <nos...@spamless.spam> wrote:
>>The Catholic Church officially disregards the psychology field,
>>teaching students in Catholic school to ignore the psychology field
>>entirely. The Church of Scientology agrees wholeheartedly with the
>>Catholic Church. Scientology takes it a step farther by actively
>>lobbying governments to force laws upon the psychology field which
>>will protect innocent, law abiding people.
>I don't know where you got that information about the Catholic church
>and Catholic schools but it is definitely not correct. I happened to
>have graduated from Fordham University (a Catholic institution)and work
>for a Catholic hospital and can tell you that the field of psychology
>has not been ignored at all in these institutions. To compare the CofS
>to the Catholic church in this regard, is absurd.
I already proved this wrong, if you just go to the Vatican's web site
at http://www.vatican.va and type "psychology" into their search engines you
will find numerous positive references to the field of psychology. Iain Rowe
knows this, too, and is just deliberately posting outrageously false statements
for the sake of trolling.
Repeat public troll warning.
On Sat, 30 Sep 2000 04:49:37 GMT, Iain Rowe Industries <nos...@spamless.spam>
wrote:
>This post gives helpful information to innocent scientologists and
>others on this newsgroup who may want to press charges against those who
>harass them because of their religious beliefs.
Jim Byrd
>
>In article <39D89968...@spamless.spam>,
> Iain Rowboat Industries <nos...@spamless.spam> wrote:
>
>>from wrong".
>
>By that definition, Koos was definitely not sane. It was obvious from
>his years of posting that he was firmly convinced that he was doing
>what was right.
>
>>teaching students in Catholic school to ignore the psychology field
>>entirely. The Church of Scientology agrees wholeheartedly with the
>>Catholic Church. Scientology takes it a step farther by actively
>>lobbying governments to force laws upon the psychology field which
>>will protect innocent, law abiding people.
>
>I don't know where you got that information about the Catholic church
>and Catholic schools but it is definitely not correct. I happened to
>have graduated from Fordham University (a Catholic institution)and work
>for a Catholic hospital and can tell you that the field of psychology
>has not been ignored at all in these institutions. To compare the CofS
>to the Catholic church in this regard, is absurd.
It could be that this is something Scientology is telling its people in order to
convince them that important institutions also hold the opinions that
Scientology doees. This could be an attempt to slow the attrition rate of scn
membership.
Dave Bird
>in article 8r85jv$5qu$1...@nnrp1.deja.com, Monica Pignotti at PM:
>>Iain Rowe Industries <nos...@spamless.spam> wrote:
>>>>Steve Zadarnowski wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I must say, I never saw it coming, but then we never really
>>>>> do, even if well acquainted the person. I'm not surprised -
>>>>
>>>>keep them from seeing what was going on. Heaven help the
>>>>person who got anywhere near enough to see, suspect,
>>>>name the truth, or ask the hard questions.
>>>
>>> Well now, we could see poor Koos had serious problems by looking at his
>>> website.
>>
>> even schizophrenic people, are not violent...
>
>is *not* committed by people who would be considered mentally ill. Although
>in Koos' case, it certainly appears that his mental illness was a factor in
>his alleged violent behavior, the presence of mental illness in general--or
>of psychotic symptoms in particular--is not a good predictor of violent
>behavior.
Agreed. This puts the focus is the wrong place. Most crime
is a relatively rational response to an unbearable stimulus
(being forced to have a little or no share of available resources
or having to lash out as the only way to stop being tormented).
It requires forming a fairly rational intention over a long
period, often careful planning, and meticulous execution.
These are the very things delusional or "broken-apart" people
are rather poor at doing. If you engage in an armed robbery,
or get into a life or death fight, you can hardly afford
to forget what you are doing and turn to look at the daisies.
In any case, the delusional state IS often what the subject has
done about unbearable pressure INSTEAD OF lashing out... a kind
of violence turned against self, or inability to form new
behaviour patterns such as those needed for violent reprisal
on tormentors. Nor does their delusional state mean they are
more apt to lash out at any moment: they are less able to form
intentions and carry out planned acts than normal people, they
have turned away from responding with reasoned practical acts.
There is one caveat. People showing EARLY STAGE paranoia are
more likely to initiate violence than normal people. But these
are the very nasty coercive types whom the controlling group
welcomes and co-opts to be its soldiers & government officials.
If they are not of a race or class to join such groups, then they
probably join street gangs instead. But they are a long way
short of the fully delusional nutcase when they are violent.
__ .\|/////..
||_.-' '. /\\|// ----
// ; | -----
--._// .\|/. .==== =====. --- -----------X*E*M*U-----------+
(( //(####) \d]>||<[d]>\ (~\ |
|| v '--'\\ . | \ | ''Auditting your Garden |
|| ; v . {_ \ : \/ Plants'' by L Ron Tubbard |
// .' : .'___' : ' Bridge Publications |
// ; '. ~===~ /\ $949.99 paperback |
// . .... o : /__\'''' / \ |
. \\\\~~~~|~~~~~~~|\\ / /\/,,, further details, ring |
. | .\''. |/''''/.|,,\\ //,,,,,,, 01 800 FOR TRUT |
'.|: O :|[ / ]|,,,,\/,,,,,,,,, |
----------------| '...' |[__O__]|,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, --------------------------+
|_______|_______|,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Rebecca Hartong
nos...@spamless.spam wrote on 10/2/00 7:22 AM:
> eboh...@omsdev.com wrote:
>>
>> Rebecca Hartong <praet...@cox.rr.com> wrote:
>>> I'm glad you added that, Monica. Indeed, the great majority of violent crime
>>> is *not* committed by people who would be considered mentally ill. Although
>>> in Koos' case, it certainly appears that his mental illness was a factor in
>>
>> Except, IIRC, in persons with concurrent substance-abuse problems.
>> Anyone know if Koos was alcoholic or on other drugs?
>
> Some people are always tryin' to blame a mental illness, alcohol or
> drugs for their actions.
"Indeed, the great majority of violent crime
is *not* committed by people who would be considered mentally ill."
Who are these 'some people' to whom you refer?
> The day Koos admits to the wrongs he has committed and accepts full
> responsibility for what he has done, is the day he's on the road to
> recovery.
That will, no doubt, be a part of his recovery process if he is able to
recover at all. Until he receives competent psychiatric help, he has little
chance of even reaching the stage where he's able to understand that his
behavior was abnormal and harmful to others.
> Koos will not get better by being told he has a mental illness that can
> make him break the law.
I agree. What will help Koos get better is competent psychiatric help--
which may involve anti-psychosis drugs. The fact that his mental illness may
have allowed him to behave in illegal and/or harmful ways is pretty much
irrelevant as far as his potential recovery goes.
> In fact, if the German government allows any of its "government licensed
> counselors" to tell Koos this, the German government should be sued to
> make it provide counseling which teaches manners, respect for all people
> and the difference between right from wrong.
Heh... you think that's Koos' problem? Bad manners?
LOL!
> Scientology is to be commended for its work in lobbying governments to
> stop such goofy practices.
Scientology should be criticized for it's bizarre and outdated notions about
psychiatric treatment and for discouraging people who are in genuine need of
psychiatric help from getting it. (The sad example of Lisa McPherson, of
course, springs most readily to mind.)
Podkayne1
cbwi...@adore.lightlink.com (CB Willis) wrote:
> There was an ample amount of public verbal abuse for years, including
> defamation and severe false accusation about myself within the last
> month.
> It's just that if the abuse and viciousness is directed at someone else,
> people tend to look the other way, even call it "entertainment", not want
> to "get involved" -- anything but confront it squarely and see it for
> what
> it is, take a public stand against the kind of thing, even take further
> action. Where there's smoke, there's [likely] fire.
See? That's why Dansai confuses me - he's making false accusations
against Bob & Gregg, he's abusive, you name it. Is he dangerous or not?
--
John Travolta thinks Scientology is wonderful.
But then, he thinks the "Battlefield Earth" movie is wonderful too.
Think about it.
"You have angered the hedgehog, and now you must pay!"
Podkayne1
<nos...@spamless.spam> wrote:
> The Catholic Church officially disregards the psychology field, teaching
> students in Catholic school to ignore the psychology field entirely.
College of Notre Dame - you've heard of them? - psychology department:
Loyola - you may have heard of them, too:
http://www.loyno.edu/psychology/
Flunk!
Reverend Fredric L. Rice
>eboh...@omsdev.com wrote:
>> Rebecca Hartong <praet...@cox.rr.com> wrote:
>>> I'm glad you added that, Monica. Indeed, the great majority of violent crime
>>> is *not* committed by people who would be considered mentally ill. Although
>>> in Koos' case, it certainly appears that his mental illness was a factor in
>> Except, IIRC, in persons with concurrent substance-abuse problems.
>> Anyone know if Koos was alcoholic or on other drugs?
>Some people are always tryin' to blame a mental illness, alcohol or
>drugs for their actions.
The responsibility here is the mental manipulation that Koos subjected
himself to while inside of the Scientology cult. If Koos had submitted
himself for treatment years ago, he would probably have regained his
stability and whatever violence he has apparently done wouldn't have
happened.
barb
Podkayne1 wrote:
>
> In article <39d58...@news2.lightlink.com>,
> cbwi...@adore.lightlink.com (CB Willis) wrote:
>
> > There was an ample amount of public verbal abuse for years, including
> > defamation and severe false accusation about myself within the last
> > month.
> > It's just that if the abuse and viciousness is directed at someone else,
> > people tend to look the other way, even call it "entertainment", not want
> > to "get involved" -- anything but confront it squarely and see it for
> > what
> > it is, take a public stand against the kind of thing, even take further
> > action. Where there's smoke, there's [likely] fire.
>
> See? That's why Dansai confuses me - he's making false accusations
> against Bob & Gregg, he's abusive, you name it. Is he dangerous or not?
Like Clarke, I think he would probably break the law "protecting" his
kids.
How are the kids today, Dan?
Phaedrus
Hash: SHA1
The scout coyotes happened across article
<39D89968...@spamless.spam>, in which nos...@spamless.spam
said...
> The Catholic Church officially disregards the psychology field,
> teaching students in Catholic school to ignore the psychology field
> entirely. The Church of Scientology agrees wholeheartedly with the
> Catholic
> Church. Scientology takes it a step farther by actively lobbying
> governments to force laws upon the psychology field which will
> protect innocent, law abiding people.
Even though you're almost certainly trolling, I just can't let
this go unchallenged; this is simply wrong. The Roman Catholic Church
not only has no such teaching against psychology, but a quick search of
the Vatican's web site will turn up several documents in which high
church officials (including the Pope) specifically mention psychology
in positive ways. For example:
[...] Saint Paul, himself so attentive to the pastoral demands
of his day, clearly and firmly indicated the need to be "urgent
in season and out of season" (cf. 2 Tim 4:2), and not to be
daunted by the fact that "sound teaching is no longer endured"
(cf. 2 Tim 4:3). His words are well known to those who, with
deep insight into the events of the present time, expect that
the Church will not only not abandon "sound doctrine", but will
proclaim it with renewed vigour, seeking in today's "signs of
the times" the incentive and insights which can lead to a deeper
understanding of her teaching.
Some of these insights can be taken from the very sciences
which have evolved from the earlier study of anthropology into
various specialized sciences such as biology, psychology,
sociology and their branches. In some sense all these sciences
revolve around medicine, which is both a science and an art
(ars medica), at the service of man's life and health. But the
insights in question come first of all from human experience,
which, in all its complexity, in some sense both precedes
science and follows it.
-- Pope John Paul II, Letter to Families, February 2, 1994
The Roman Catholic Church certainly does reject some particular
findings of psychology (or at least of particular psychologists). For
example:
[...] Another reason for the disappearance of the sense of
sin in contemporary society is to be found in the errors made
in evaluating certain findings of the human sciences. Thus on
the basis of certain affirmations of psychology, concern to
avoid creating feelings of guilt or to place limits on freedom
leads to a refusal ever to admit any shortcoming. Through an
undue extrapolation of the criteria of the science of
sociology, it finally happens-as I have already said-that all
failings are blamed upon society, and the individual is
declared innocent of them.
-- Pope John Paul II, Apostolic Exhortation, "Reconciliatio
et Paenitentia" [Reconciliation and Penance], December 2,
1984
But even that document makes it clear that psychology itself
isn't being rejected:
[...]From these biblical data on reconciliation there will
naturally derive a theological catechesis, which in its
synthesis will also integrate the elements of psychology,
sociology and the other human sciences which can serve to
clarify situations, describe problems accurately and persuade
listeners or readers to make concrete resolutions.
-- Pope John Paul II, Apostolic Exhortation, "Reconciliatio
et Paenitentia" [Reconciliation and Penance], December 2,
1984
In fact, the Roman Catholic Church not only does not reject
psychology, it actively encourages some of its members to be trained in
psychology. For example:
[...]The bishops first of all should feel their grave
responsibility for the formation of those who have been given
the task of educating future priests. For this ministry,
priests of exemplary life should be chosen, men with a number
of qualities: "human and spiritual maturity, pastoral
experience, professional competence, stability in their own
vocation, a capacity to work with others, serious preparation
in those human sciences (psychology especially) which relate
to their office, a knowledge of how to work in groups."
-- Pope John Paul II, Apostolic Exhortation, "Pastores
Dabo Vobis" [On the Formation of Priests in the
Circumstances of the Present Day], March 25, 1992
One can only conclude that, if the Church of Scientology is this
utterly wrong on basic policies of the Catholic Church with respect to
psychology, it shouldn't be trusted to have anything resembling
reliable data on other aspects of psychology either.
[Disclaimer: I am neither a practicing Catholic nor a practicing
Scientologist.]
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