IRC logs: Bob and Stacy talk
Karin Spaink
Stacy there. Lots of questions were being popped at them; as
a matter of fact, so many, that I thought they were not
given a fair chance of answering them. So I proposed that I
would gladly moderate a discussion.
It happened on the spur: Bob and Stacy agreed, we set up
a moderated channel (with some help), and five minutes after
the idea came up we were talking in #scn_mod.
Some of the questions I asked were suggested by people on
the regular channel #scientology. Zenon kept track of them
and relayed them to me as best as he could.
I have asked and gotten both Stacy's and Bob's permission to
post this. The log has been slightly edited: all the
joining, parting and changing of the subject have been
edited out, unless in the instances that they influenced the
discussion.
I will post the logs in the next message. Be advised that it
is long.
groet,
Karin Spaink
- I write, therefore I am:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~kspaink
Karin Spaink
*** Now talking in #scn_mod
<minty> i'm here
<sgorton_> wah hoo!
<KSpaink> Ok. I'm trying to get instructions, first.
<sgorton_> slash mode #bob_mod +m
<{^^^}> ./mode #scn_mod +m
<gorilla> also +t
<KSpaink> I think we're ready
<minty> someone get stacy
<KSpaink> Will someone warn Stacy?
<KSpaink> And Bob, can we post this log later?
<minty> prefer not
<KSpaink> I'm waiting for Stacy. Bob would like her here.
<KSpaink> Ok. Stacy is here, and NO logs to ars.
<minty> Agreed
<KSpaink> Stacy can talk as well. And will you all stop paging me?
<catlady2> how does this work? just karin and bob and i can talk?
<minty> I'm ready but slow typist
<KSpaink> Yes, only we three can talk.
<catlady2> i'm slow typist too
<KSpaink> Yes, you may type slowly. That's ok.
<KSpaink> Bob, when are Dan and Cynthia going to meet?
<catlady2> i can answer that. i just spoke to dan
<minty> No meeting
<minty> They will talk tonight
<minty> or tomorrow\
<KSpaink> Talk on the phone, or see one another?
<catlady2> bob is right. they are not going to meet. they are goingn to speak on
the phone.
<minty> Cynthia was not home 45 minutes ago
<KSpaink> And if CK asks to see backup for what Dan relays her, can she?
<catlady2> dan has spoken to both of us tonight. he has tried to reach cynthia
but she was not home. he has left her a message.
<minty> No
<catlady2> karin, this needs to be left to dan.
<minty> Stacy let me speak to this
<catlady2> dan does not think it will be necessary once he has spoken to her.
<KSpaink> Stacy: what needs to be left to Dan? The meeting en face or the seeing
of backup material?
<catlady2> ok bob
<minty> Dan has said he will noit show her anything
*** wgertafkb (~wg...@p21.hwts12.loop.net) has joined #scn_mod
<minty> not show
<KSpaink> Bob: is Dan saying so on your instructions?
<catlady2> karin, dan is an attorney. he needs to be allowed to deal with this.
<minty> no
<catlady2> please get wgert out of here.
<KSpaink> I will get wgrt out. ait a sec.
<catlady2> please don't do anything further until wgert is gone
*** KSpaink sets mode: +b wgertafkb!*wg...@p21.hwts12.loop.net
<KSpaink> I think I have banned him...
<catlady2> dan is not saying this on bob's instructions. they happen to agree on
this point however.
<KSpaink> Ron says I should ban loopnet... wait.
*** Elvis^ changes topic to "wgert's still here, you need to kick him too"
<catlady2> and you guys need to allow the attorney to do what he feels is
correct here.
*** wgertafkb was kicked by KSpaink (KSpaink)
<minty> Stacy leave this to me please
<KSpaink> Ok, done with administration ;-)
<KSpaink> Bob, feel free to speak.
<minty> Dan does not feel the material should be shown
<minty> nor do i
<minty> nor does Stacy
<minty> We are in full agreement
<KSpaink> Ok. I assume you cannot dissolve the reasons for that?
<minty> discuss?
<minty> that's right
<catlady2> karin, we are dealing with sensitive issues here and I would
appreciate it if you would not press t his issue
<KSpaink> I'd love to discuss 'em but I was asking you whether you feel free to
do so.
<minty> Cynthia is upset
<minty> She has been betrayed
<minty> It is very hard to acept
<KSpaink> Yes, we can all see why Cynthia is upset.
<minty> Cynthia has had sex charges leveled at her by Laura
<KSpaink> But most of us cannot understand why Cynthia -- who has a very good
reason to _need_ to know about possible plants in CAN -- cannot get the full
story.
<minty> So has Craig Branch
<minty> There is alot of heat and emotion all over
<minty> OK
<minty> let me answer
<KSpaink> ok.
<minty> Can is history.
<catlady2> karink, cynthia did get the full story. the first i knew that she
needed m9ore infor was when she posted to ars
<minty> I have been asked to put up
<minty> %million to help save can
<minty> It cannot be done
<minty> No one else will do it
<KSpaink> May I interrupt?
<minty> 5 million
<minty> go ahead
<KSpaink> Cynthia has said that she got the _news_, not the
story. And that what she heard didn't convince her.
<catlady2> please explain. i am the one who spoke to her at length.
<KSpaink> And she has also stated that she has aked for more
info, needed it (for more than personal reasons).
<KSpaink> That seems to contradict what you just said.
<catlady2> karin, i had no idea she needed more until she posted that info to
ars
<catlady2> i wish she had called me
<catlady2> i had no idea
<KSpaink> Stacy: Cynthia said so on ars: she couldn't believe that LT was a
plant.
<minty> Dan is Cynthia's friend
<minty> If she will believe anyone
<catlady2> what I am saying is this:
<minty> it will be him
<KSpaink> Ok. Let's assume you didn't know that CK wanted more information and
had every right to assume so.
<catlady2> (minty is right about that)
<catlady2> i spoke to cynthia for a very long time
<KSpaink> But she has now openly stated that was she has been oresented with, is
insufficient.
<catlady2> it was an extremely uncomfortable convesation
<KSpaink> ... presented ....
<catlady2> wait let me finish
<KSpaink> ok.
<catlady2> wespoke for a very long time.
<catlady2> she and I have been friends for a long time
<catlady2> she listened to what I said and
<catlady2> then said that she would like to speak to the pi
<catlady2> i said of course she could and that I totaly understood
<minty> Dan said tonight that emotions are so high that even if Cynthia saw a
videotaped confession from Laura she may not believe anything.
<catlady2> i have her the number and
<catlady2> hang on minty
<KSpaink> go on, it's ok
<minty> What Stacy did not know was that she had to talk to Dan, not the PI
<catlady2> i meant I gave her the number and then we hung up and I assumed
<catlady2> they had connect but... minty is right. I didn't
realize she had to talk to dan not the pi
<minty> Dan hired the pi
<catlady2> so now that has been set up and dan is trying to
reach her and as soon as he can reach her that conversation
will talk place
<catlady2> take place, i mean
<catlady2> sorry my typing is so bad
<KSpaink> Ah. Let me check whether have this correct: a reason why everything
took so long is that you thought C was goung to talk with Dan, while C herself
thought she was going to talk with the PI?
<minty> no
<catlady2> no, i thought she was going to talk to the pi but
<minty> not quite
<catlady2> the pi said she had to talk to dan but
<catlady2> no one told me that and no one told dan either
<KSpaink> So how would you rephrase this misunderstanding?
<catlady2> so it was a miscommunication and now it has led to this blow up on
ars and irc
<minty> It was a low key matter for us in Dec
<catlady2> yes, it was low key, he's right
<minty> That is when this conversation took place
<KSpaink> Stacy: culd you sum up this particular misunderstanding in your own
words?
<minty> but hold on
<catlady2> what minty?
<minty> We found out last week
<minty> that Craig Branch
<minty> who Dan was talking to
<minty> was bouncing everything
<minty> off Laura in October
<minty> We were still thinging to use her
<minty> but Craig was bnlowing our cover
<KSpaink> ... that part yo need to explain to me. I never truly vgot who Craig
is, and what his position is.
<minty> inadvertendly
<minty> Craig was Watchman Fellowship
<KSpaink> ok.
<minty> He was said by Laura
<minty> to be her lover
<catlady2> laura accused craig of seducing her
<KSpaink> And Stacy, I still hope that you can summarize your take on this
misunderstanding with Cynthia for us.
<minty> He was said by Laura to be Cynthia's lover
<catlady2> yes i will
<minty> go ahead
<KSpaink> thanks, Stacy. taking your time is ok.
<catlady2> do you want me to do it now?
<KSpaink> Yes, please.
<catlady2> ok
<catlady2> here is what happened
<catlady2> I told cynthia to call the pi
<catlady2> and gave her the number
<catlady2> then we hung up
<catlady2> i assumed she called the pi and got the confirmation she needed
<catlady2> because I never heard back from her
<catlady2> i should have followed up myself but
<catlady2> there were a lot of other things happening too
<catlady2> and I didn't
<catlady2> it was a mistake on my part but I just didn't
<catlady2> i assumed they had hooked up and that cynthia had gotten
<catlady2> the information she needed because I never heard
<catlady2> otherwise from her
<catlady2> the next thing I knew cynthia was posting to ars that she <catlady2>
had never gotten the information i had promised her
<catlady2> it turned out
<catlady2> that the pi told cynthia he would have to get authorization
<catlady2> from Dan but the pi
<catlady2> didn't call dan for authorization
<catlady2> for a couple of weeks
<catlady2> (i had no idea this was happening, you understand)
<catlady2> so cynthia ended up thinking she was being denied information
<catlady2> when in fact it was an unfortunate breakdown in communication
<catlady2> as soon as dan found out that cynthia needed to talk to her
<catlady2> he immediately called her
<catlady2> but by then everything was already blowing up
<catlady2> now dan and cynthia have talked once and have agreed to talk again.
<catlady2> dan tried to talk to her tonight but she was not home.
<catlady2> he will speak to her as soon as she calls him back
<minty> Dan is our attornet at Factnet. We take his advice
seriously. A no show policy on the legally obtained evidence
in this matter. Deana is not my attorney. Nor is Kady. I
listen to my attorneys most of the time.
<minty> mom pls
<catlady2> does that clarify?
<KSpaink> Ok. I think you have explained why you were convinced you'd done your
best, Stacy.
<minty> Dan called Cynthia while he was in depo for
<minty> 4 days
<minty> without the files
<minty> Now he has the files
<KSpaink> Bob, hold on. One thing at a time -- this is complicated.
<minty> and is trying to talk
<catlady2> hang on everybody
<minty> ok
<KSpaink> It's ok.
<catlady2> dan is out of deposition now and can speak to cynthia
with the files in front of him so he can go over specific information with her.
<KSpaink> Stacy, I wanted to hear your account, and meanwhile I
looked up Cynthia's.
<catlady2> ok
<KSpaink> The stories match. We may agree that this was a bad
misunderstanding.
<minty> No bad faith here
<catlady2> can you see how she ended up thinking what she was thinking?
<catlady2> no there was absolutely no bad faith at all
<KSpaink> From her point of view: yes.
<catlady2> it was a mixup
<minty> Then she heard stuff off irc from Deana I bet
<catlady2> or whoever. it doesn't matter who she heard it from
<KSpaink> But the next queston is of course: when you -- and
this question is for Bob -- found out that Cynthia
<catlady2> the point is that a lot of people got in on this and
it muddied the whole thing befor4e we could straighten it out
<KSpaink> was _not_ convinced, how did you try to quench her
doubts and disbelief?
<minty> Let her talk to Dan
<catlady2> by the time we knew it was already over to dan
<minty> the first call did not work
<catlady2> she needs to talk to dan
<KSpaink> Stacy, agreed. But I would like Bob to answer the
second question.
<minty> because dan did not have the info
<catlady2> because she already talked to us and she needed more
confirmation
<catlady2> ok sorry
<minty> in front of him because of depos
<minty> now he has it
<KSpaink> Bob, what yu're saying is that you think or hope that
CK will be convinced on the basis of a talk with Dan?
<minty> Stacy pay attention to who is asked ;-)
<minty> Yes
<catlady2> :-)
<minty> Because of their closeness
<minty> she will believe him and his conclusion
<KSpaink> From what I understand, CK has already talked with
Dan, hasn't she?
<minty> Yes but not when Dan had files
<minty> He called from a hotel
<catlady2> right, she wanted him to get the files
<minty> this was October we
<KSpaink> When _did_ they talk? Because I thought they spoke in
the past week.
<minty> reviewed this material
<minty> Because aDan wanted her to know
<KSpaink> Erm, let me sort this out step by step.
<KSpaink> When did you give the files to Dan, Bob?
<catlady2> hang on.
<minty> that he would get in touch when he could
<catlady2> can I talk
<minty> he did not know
<minty> and did not know until today
<KSpaink> Stacy, could you hold on for a bit?
<minty> about this ruckus on ars and irc
<catlady2> ok
<minty> I never had the files
<minty> Dan got the files
<minty> from the pi at my house in nh
<minty> in October
<KSpaink> Ok. You're saying the PI gave them to Dan? And if so,
when?
<minty> October
<minty> late Oct
<KSpaink> Ok, that one is answered.
<KSpaink> Bob, have you seen those files yourself?
<minty> No
<minty> just a summary
<KSpaink> You mean the report?
<minty> yes
<KSpaink> Ok. And Dan had those in October?
<minty> yes
<minty> Satcy do u remember the date we all met
<KSpaink> Dan had 1) the report 2) the phone records?
<minty> He had the file
<minty> I did not see or look at the file
<catlady2> i can find it if it's important
<KSpaink> Did you see the report yrself, Bob?
<minty> it would help
<minty> Yes
<KSpaink> So Bob has seen the reoport. Ok.
<minty> ok
<KSpaink> Dan has it, and previously you said that Dan couldn't
very well talk with Cynthia
<minty> Yes
<minty> without it
<KSpaink> 'cause he didn't have the report.
<minty> not with him
<KSpaink> But that is -- lemme count -- almost four months ago?
<minty> no
<minty> he was in a hotel 10 days ago
<minty> and did not have it
<KSpaink> You mean as in: he didn't have it, or: didn't have it
_with_ him?
<minty> Not with him
<minty> Now
<minty> You may ask
<KSpaink> Ok. But am I right that Dan has had the report since October?
<minty> Why did we not talk to cynthia in Oct
<minty> yes
<KSpaink> Dan has talked with Cynthia since, I think. Is that coorect?
<minty> Sinc when
<KSpaink> Since October, since having the file.
<minty> I don't know to be sure
<minty> It was not a priority to talk to cynthia
<minty> for any of us
<KSpaink> I remember -- correct me if I'm wrong -- that in the
Kady IRC session, you said that CK and Dan had talked a couple
of days ago.
<minty> a few days ago 10 days I don't remember
<minty> once since this started
<KSpaink> Did they talk to discuss the report?
<minty> this furor
<minty> Dan called to tell her that
<minty> he would talk when he was
<minty> out of deo
<KSpaink> -- yeah I agree it's a mess -- but we're trying to
sort it out now, aren't we?
<minty> depo
<minty> yes
<KSpaink> So, inasfar as you know, they still haven't _actually_
discussed it?
<minty> Not with dan having the file
<minty> unless it happened a few minutes ago
<minty> Dan has left a message and
<KSpaink> Ok. That clears one of my misunderstandings at least.
I thought they had.
*** catlady2 has quit IRC (irc.exodus.net irc.ais.net)
<minty> maybe she calls him back tonight
<KSpaink> Next question, if it's ok with you two.
<minty> By catlady
<minty> she has gone
<KSpaink> Might be a fluke in the net. If she returns.
<minty> she will come back but goahead
<KSpaink> I'll op her again.
*** catlady2 (sta...@stl-wa44-34.ix.netcom.com) has joined #scn_mod
*** irc.ais.net sets mode: +v catlady2
<minty> ;-)
<KSpaink> Strange term in this context ;-)
<KSpaink> Rehi Stacy
<KSpaink> Can I move on to the next question?
<minty> Welcome back Cat
<minty> yes
<KSpaink> There's two imortant questions. You can prioritize:
<catlady2> karin, my screen just did a flip flop. are you guys still there?
<minty> yes
<KSpaink> * why didn't you inform CK earlier, considering her
professional interest in this knowledge that there was perhaps
a plant?
<minty> ok
<KSpaink> -- stacy, you're ok from this side of the pond --
<minty> Can was dead
<KSpaink> ah but the lawsuits are not.
<minty> Cynthia was not interested in Can
<minty> after The Landmark force out
<catlady2> ok i'm back
<minty> She was effectively forced
<minty> out of can
<catlady2> we were reluctant to talk about this
<minty> sold out really
<KSpaink> Ok, I will take this item.
<minty> because the board settled and
<minty> left CK hanging with a personal lawsuit
<minty> from Landmark
<KSpaink> Bob: I don't think you can say that CAN sold out. realy.
<catlady2> it's true
<minty> I help cynthia fight this lawsuit
<catlady2> but the reason we didn't say anything sooner
<minty> Can sold ck out
<minty> KAREN
<minty> listen Can sold her out
<catlady2> was that it was so horrible we weren't sure how to
inform anyonhe
<catlady2> anyone, sorry
<KSpaink> Considering the lawsuits against CAN -- and not all of
them are done -- and considering CK's 'private' lawsuits, this
plant-story is very important to CK, do you agree?
<minty> she did not sell out
<minty> no
<KSpaink> Ok. You claim CAN sold CK out, not the other way round.
<catlady2> we weren't sure how to tell anyone
<catlady2> and you can see why
<minty> Ck settled and did you see her
<minty> post in last month
<catlady2> she never sold out
<minty> she finally agreed to a lesser deal than can
<catlady2> she broke away after can settled with landmark forum
<KSpaink> Ok, I misunderstod Bob's remark.
<catlady2> she refused to sell out
<minty> ok
<minty> But in the end you saw what she said
<catlady2> bob helped her so she wouldn't have to sell out to landmark
<minty> Can has nothing
<KSpaink> But the question still is: CK has a _great_ interest
in knowing about possible plants.
<catlady2> yes and that is why we finally called her
<minty> She is not active in this field
<catlady2> to tell her
<minty> It was a professional courtesy
<catlady2> even though this was a very dear friend of hers
<minty> that's all
<catlady2> it was a horrible situation
<KSpaink> Any OSA-op case might still affect both CK's cases and
CAN cases; do you agree?
<catlady2> we agonized over it
<minty> In other words don't trust Laura
<catlady2> yes that 's why we called her
<minty> It was later
<catlady2> but karin, as you wrote to me
<minty> we found out that Jim Beebe
<KSpaink> Let me out it in a different way: -- thank you Stacy,
that's precisely what I wanted to say:
<minty> warned ck about Laura
<catlady2> proving a plant is almost impossible
<catlady2> especially when it is a dear friend
<catlady2> it's a horrible situation
<catlady2> it took months before I would believe it even when i
was being hit in the face with it
<KSpaink> IF she is a dear frend, and one with a vested interest
in the case, why did you cntact her so late?
<minty> No interest in a case
<catlady2> karin,
<minty> What case
<catlady2> what do you mean?
<minty> What case
<KSpaink> The case -- not as in: lawsuit, but as in: event -- of
an OSA plant in CAN.
<catlady2> you've been in this situation before
<catlady2> how can you ask?
<catlady2> you know how difficult it was
<minty> ok sorry
<catlady2> you of all people
<catlady2> i was telling cynthia something that i hadn't believed myself
<KSpaink> When I had a hnch that CoS did an op on me, I kept
quiet. Like you did. But I spoke with the peopel affected. Feliep, in my case.
<KSpaink> ... hunch ...
<catlady2> until this woman had hit me so hard I couldn't deny
it any longer
<minty> We had a lot of hunches
<catlady2> but karin, that's exactly what we did.
<catlady2> we spoke with cynthia
<catlady2> because she was affected
<minty> before we worked with Laura I called cynthia for a
reference in MAY 1998
<KSpaink> To the both of you: I absolutely understand that you
were smashed when you believed
<catlady2> but how did feliep take the news?
<KSpaink> that yes, there was an op; of course.
<catlady2> yes, utterly devastated
<catlady2> utterly
<KSpaink> -- Felipe and I immediately convened. And devised a
common strategy --
<catlady2> but you see, that was the difference.
<minty> We did too
<catlady2> i expected that we would convene
<minty> but the strategy broke when
<catlady2> but it didn't happen
<KSpaink> But that -- the ebing devastated -- would, in my view,
make you all the more susceptible to CK's needs and
<minty> Dan talked to Craig
<catlady2> cynthia chose to believe that we were wrong
<minty> Branch and he in turn
<catlady2> i would never have called her if i had had evenn
<minty> told Laura and we only
<minty> found that out last week
<catlady2> a shred -- even a shred -- of doubt
<KSpaink> make it all the more important that you _talk_, and
that she gets to see what yoy got to see.
<catlady2> but she chose not to believ eme
<catlady2> i know and that is what
<catlady2> I've said earlier
<catlady2> that was the mistake
<KSpaink> Will you, Bob, allow Cynthia to see the same report
you saw?
<catlady2> that I assumed it was handled because I didn't hear from
<catlady2> her but it wasn't
<minty> Karin
<KSpaink> Yea?
<minty> It will be up to Dan
<minty> but I would let her see it
<minty> for a look not to keep
<catlady2> i agree
<catlady2> now we need to leave it to dan
<KSpaink> That I do not get: if you want this, and Dan is yur
atorney, he acts on your instructions.
<minty> yes
<minty> but i don't think
<KSpaink> So why is it up to Dan?
<minty> she will need to see it
<minty> If so I will go to Chicago
<KSpaink> Will you tell Dan that she can?
<catlady2> because dan is the one whom cynthia trusts karin
<minty> I'll think about it
<minty> but you have my gut
<catlady2> i will go too
<catlady2> but you don't understand.
<catlady2> Dan and cynthia totally trust each other
<KSpaink> Bob, do yu yourself have any idea what _exactly_ is in the file?
<catlady2> she will believe him
<minty> No
<KSpaink> So what you're saying is that the PI gave it to Dan?
<minty> but I could guess but i won't
<minty> yes
<KSpaink> But you _ordered_ the PI, you hired him, not Dan. So
why were you left out?
<minty> Dan told us we should not see the files
<minty> Dan hired the pi
<catlady2> it was between the pi and the attorney
<catlady2> karin you should allow us to leave it at that
<KSpaink> Does this mean that Dan approved, or even urged you,
to make the announcement about laura on the newsgroup?
<catlady2> please
<minty> No he did not know
<minty> It was my doing
<KSpaink> ok.
<minty> I thought people should be warned
<minty> She is dangerous
<KSpaink> And Bob, for the record: you believed so on the basis
of the report? (As in: the extract of the fles)?
<KSpaink> ... files ...
<minty> Yes
<minty> and
<minty> what I saw her do to Jesse, Stacy
<minty> and me
<catlady2> there are things that happened that haven't been
reported to all of you
<catlady2> laura was the only one who knew certain things and
then suddenly scn was there
<KSpaink> Bob, I need to ask again, sorry: have you_read_the report?
<minty> yes
<KSpaink> Ok.
<catlady2> we were testing her and things happened that could
only have come from her
<KSpaink> And that was what you based your accusation upon?
<catlady2> i have read the report also
<KSpaink> Ah, Stacy, thank you. I wasn't sure.
<minty> The can copy project
<minty> was a red flag
<minty> that set off our investigation
<catlady2> among many others
<KSpaink> And you will allow Cynthia to read the same report?
<minty> We think LT led Moxon to the files
<catlady2> she was alwasy there
<minty> to stop us from cpying the files
<KSpaink> need to ask again, I think this is important: Will
you allow Cynthia to read the same report?
<minty> a pure last minute raid by Moxon
<catlady2> then laura lied to jane scott about me and that was
when the final penny dropped
<minty> We will talk about it with Dan
<catlady2> yes, we will discuss that with dan
<minty> Thanks Karin
<KSpaink> Bob: you _own_ the report, it was work for hire, and
Dan acts upon your instructions.
<KSpaink> So you can simply tell him to show it to her.
<minty> I listen most of the time
<minty> to my attorneys
<catlady2> not bob -- both of us as factnet directors
<minty> FACTNET
<minty> We will discuss with Dan
<KSpaink> ok, so Dan is FN's attorney. But _you_ -- both -- can
instruct Dan to show it to Cynthia.
<minty> Yes but we will be tempered by highly paid legal advice
<KSpaink> Can you tell us anything about the risk you, or Dan,
perceives in showing it to CK?
<minty> Can we close now Karin?
<minty> No
<KSpaink> Bob, there's just one more subject...
<minty> ok
<KSpaink> Will you allow me?
<minty> go
<catlady2> yes but we will also discuss with dan and listen to his advice
<catlady2> you are assuming there is going to be a problem here
and I am assuming there will not be
<minty> go KArin
<catlady2> and i think bob is assuming there will not be.
<catlady2> based on the relationship between cynthia and dan
<catlady2> don't assume that there will be a problem
<minty> Catlady are you a diplomat or what? ;-)
<KSpaink> One thing. Many people in a.r.s. simply do not
understand wy you get so angry, and almost automatically
condescending, when we ask questions. Funny things is you do
not do it now. How come? (Not the now, but the on arsbit.)
<catlady2> exactly
<minty> We'll Karin
<minty> I have made a LIVING concluding
<minty> $7 billion of
<catlady2> i hope all of the people watching this conversation
will be wiling to be discreet
<catlady2> i hope i spelled discreet correctly....
<minty> business based on a handshake and my word
<KSpaink> ... discrete ... ;-)
<minty> It is reall hard for me to stomach a
<KSpaink> Ah but Bob, ars is not business...
<minty> handful of people who seem
<KSpaink> -- sorry, I interrupted ---
<minty> to be completely unconnected to the real world question
<minty> my integrity
<minty> Yes but I am in the real world
<KSpaink> Two things. If you fuck with somebody in business,
they will stop doing business with you ;-)
<KSpaink> and secondly,
<KSpaink> in ars your integrity often _depends_ on willingness
to discuss, and disclose grounds, doubts, whatever.
<minty> yes youy are right and am learning humility
<KSpaink> Discussing _enhances_ your integrity here, not decrease it.
<minty> I do understand
<minty> But
<minty> Karin there are not many who like
<minty> reasoned discussions
<KSpaink> Trouble on newsgroups is if you call somebody shit,
you will have to stand up for it -- otherwise the label will backfire.
<minty> The loudest
<minty> often carries the conversation
<catlady2> what's happening? everything has stopped
<minty> not for me
<KSpaink> I will grant you that some people shouted. But I will
_not_ grant you this: you often discard serious questions, and
people's _efforts_ to undertsnad your conclusion, with a "what
do you know?"
<minty> Some things cannot be discussed
<minty> or revealed and on a NG I am learning
<minty> that it may best be left unsaid
<KSpaink> True: you cannot always disclose everything. But
there's ways of saying it, without becoming cndescending or sexist.
<minty> Sexist hold on
<minty> I am a teaser
<KSpaink> Grady, Zenon, Keith, I -- we all have at times chosen
to keep our mouth shut.
<minty> I do that to Dean
<minty> deana and kady
<KSpaink> But usually we don't annunce to the group what we do
not want to discuss.
<minty> u are right I should do better Karin
<minty> I like a reasonable discussion
<minty> Typing is not my way
<minty> but I am learning to love the diversity on ARS
<KSpaink> Although I do not agree with Deana harping on you, I
do agree that you -- well, treat those whose opinions you
dislike or disgaree with in such a way that they degrade you.
<minty> it's a slow process
<minty> Yu're right
<KSpaink> That goes if you call Kady 'sugar' and if you call Rob 'boy'.
<minty> spank
<KSpaink> Yes?
<minty> No Spank me
<KSpaink> Gratefully :-)
<minty> Listen
<minty> I am sorry to have pissed off so many
<KSpaink> (Aometimes I do not know whether people invite me or
misspell my surname)
<minty> I wish I had never brought Laura to thi s NG
* KSpaink listens
<minty> But she is here and I do not regret
<minty> what I have said about her> I am sure it is true
<minty> but I will never be able to convince all
<KSpaink> I do not doubt that you -- or Stacy, or Jesse --
believe that it is true.
<minty> Dan
<minty> Brian
<minty> The pi's
<minty> also believe
<KSpaink> The best way to convince a.r.s. is to cinvnce Cynthia,
you do now that I take it.
<minty> I know
<minty> But if she is not I still am
<minty> I would not do what I did
<minty> if there was ANY doubt
<minty> in my mind
<minty> We will try!
<minty> Shall we close?
<KSpaink> Almost.
<KSpaink> First of all, thank you for your patience,
<minty> You are tough!
<KSpaink> Secondly, _do_ remember that the way tomaintain
integrety on ars is by
<KSpaink> discussion and devate, and not by yelling or a show of
emotions.
<minty> I understand
<KSpaink> Thirdly, I think this discussion has cleared u a
numver of things.
<KSpaink> Do you still not like tohave it psted to ars?
<minty> I hope and I promise I am Learning
<minty> repeat
<KSpaink> I think it would do you good if you would allow me to
post it.
<minty> ok
<KSpaink> Ok, as in: I can post it?
<minty> Ok go ahead
<KSpaink> Does that hold for Stacy too?
<minty> You better ask
<minty> but she is not here mom
<KSpaink> I will. Thank you, and goodnight.
<minty> I 'll get her on phone
<minty> hold onm
<KSpaink> I will
<minty> hold Stacy says Ok to post
<minty> Thanks Karin
<KSpaink> Thank you again.
<minty> bye bye
<KSpaink> same.
Session Close: Tue Jan 26 05:38:24 1999
Andreas Heldal-Lund - www.xenu.net
wrote:
>Tonight, while visiting #scientology, I found both Bob and
>Stacy there. Lots of questions were being popped at them; as
[SNIP]
Great work Karin! This was helpful. IMO it should calm down
those who have been most eager to shout for a "crucifixions"
of Bob Minton and/or Factnet.
Also good to read that Bob is aware of the problems with the
way he act on ARS, and that he is sorry and are trying to
change (read learn more).
Again thanks.
Best wishes, SP4 & Adm. TOXE CXI
Andreas Heldal-Lund, Normannsgaten 9, N-4013 Stavanger, Norway
Pho: +47 88 00 66 66 Fax: 90 32 35 46 E-mail: hel...@online.no
home.sol.no/~spirous www.xenu.net www.hedning.no/hedning
---------------------------------------------------------------
"The great snare of thought is uncritical acceptance of
irrational assumptions." - Will Durant
---------------------------------------------------------------
Tilman Hausherr
being able to get through this story. And yes, Bob should learn to be
less arrogant in cases of disagreement.
--
Tilman Hausherr [KoX, SP4]
til...@berlin.snafu.de http://www.snafu.de/~tilman/#cos
Resistance is futile. You will be enturbulated. Xenu always prevails.
Clearwater pictures: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Oracle/4497/clearwater/index.html
Find broken links on your web site: http://www.snafu.de/~tilman/xenulink.html
Annoy scientology by buying books: http://www.snafu.de/~tilman/bookstore.html
Bernie
(Karin Spaink) wrote:
>Session Start: Tue Jan 26 03:37:50 1999
>
>*** Now talking in #scn_mod
[snip]
>Session Close: Tue Jan 26 05:38:24 1999
My comments:
1) First somewhat sensible attitude from the
Minton. You have done a good job, Karin: you
maintain a friendly approach while being critical
at the same time.
2) It's not a good idea to make a discussion at
three. It tends to confuse the discussion and is
more difficult to control. But also, if you
interview them separately, like the police does,
you can cross check what one is saying with the
other.
3) Why stress if Dan will show the report to
Cynthia? It's the phone logs and other primary
evidences that counts, not so much the report.
4) the FACTNet camps hopes that Dan will prove the
whole thing on the phone to Cynthia based on the
fact that they have a close relationship. It's a
bit thin. In fact, their close relationship would
be a barrier to objectivity, IMO.
5) We are already told why she may not be
convinced: she feels upset because she has been
betrayed (of course she can't feel upset over the
way this whole affair has been dealt with by the
Minton camp), she can't accept the fact because
this would reveal her secret sexual life, maybe
she is resentful on the fact that Minton didn't
give CAN the $5 million it would take to keep CAN
alive, etc. The simple fact that she would like to
be sure that the guilty is indeed guilty didn't
seem to cross their mind.
6) Craig Branch had an (adulterous?) affair with
Laura??? No kidding! The guy is a freakout
Christian, more Catholic than the Pope!
7) Something is wrong with the timing. Craig
Branch is supposed to have told Laura about Minton
suspicions in *October*. Yet, the report was given
by the PI to Dan and the *end* of October. Since
Stacy was convinced about Laura's culpability
*following* the report and *after* circumstantial
evidences, some of which were trap they put to
Laura, this must have been somewhere in November.
However, by then, she was already warned by
Branch, right? So how did she fall in the trap
anyway?
8) I liked the op joke :-)