The enemy is amongst us!
Meklar
<snipped>
> Need you think I am being alarmist, FACTNet, yes FACTNet, discovered an OSA
> operative who had been run in on Stacy back in May 1998 for the express
> purpose of gathering intelligence on my activities and Stacy's. OSA was
> successful. They had unfettered access to information about me and my
> whereabouts, Stacy's inner circle of friends, FACTNet records, Dan Leipold's
> office, Graham Berry's office and other juicy bits of info. Not only that,
> this plant had worked for the Cult Awareness Network for years and was an
> intimate friend of Cynthia Kisser, Craig Branch and a number of others active
> in the counter-cult movement.
>
> Her name is Laura Terepin. She is a whore who works for the devil named
> Scientology. Jesse Prince will post details of how we came to discover her
> activities and her daily reports to OSA in LA when he leaves Wellspring in a
> couple of days.
If you have proof that Laura Terepin is an OSA plant you need to
present it. If you have no evidence that she is a plant for OSA, at the
very least you should apologize to her. At the most you have libeled
her.
In any case using the very same Dead Agent tatics that Scientology uses
is distastefull. Pot........kettle.......black
>
<Snip>
> Think about it: who has the most to gain from creating a mob mentality that
> will cause the critics on ars to turn against critics and FACTNet, the only
> counter cult group willing to confront scientology?
The critics have always been a loose confederation, not a federation as
some would think.
>
<snipped>
> Bob Minton
>
>
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-Meklar SP???-
Bob Minton
Let me set the record straight on a couple of points because I'm fed-up with
the carping, sanctimonious bullshit and hypocrisy by a handful of carpers,
sanctimonious bullshitters and hypocrites on ars.
Deana at best mis-remembered or at worst lied. She did ask me for work (I
told her that I personally had nothing for her to do) but that FACTNet had a
number of projects that needed volunteers. That was not good enough for
Ms. Holmes -- she needed money. I told her FACTNet could not afford to pay
people at that stage because of a lack of resources. She had the solution
- - - --"Bob, why don't you fund a position for me at FACTNet"?
A few others on ars who are among my most virulent critics have also asked
for outright handouts from me and I have declined. They have e-mailed me
praising my efforts and sucking up big time. That is not why I do what I do
vis-a-vis Co$. I declined to assist some of these people. They then went back
door via Stacy to try and convince her that I should listen more carefully to
the merits of their needs or case.
I cannot help everyone who needs help for God's sake. There are hypocrites at
work here on ars and we all need to ask who they are really working for.
Need you think I am being alarmist, FACTNet, yes FACTNet, discovered an OSA
operative who had been run in on Stacy back in May 1998 for the express
purpose of gathering intelligence on my activities and Stacy's. OSA was
successful. They had unfettered access to information about me and my
whereabouts, Stacy's inner circle of friends, FACTNet records, Dan Leipold's
office, Graham Berry's office and other juicy bits of info. Not only that,
this plant had worked for the Cult Awareness Network for years and was an
intimate friend of Cynthia Kisser, Craig Branch and a number of others active
in the counter-cult movement.
Her name is Laura Terepin. She is a whore who works for the devil named
Scientology. Jesse Prince will post details of how we came to discover her
activities and her daily reports to OSA in LA when he leaves Wellspring in a
couple of days.
Now I will point out the obvious: Nothing could make OSA happier than to
watch the critics on a.r.s. trash FACTNet and the people who are trying to
move FACTNet in the direction of helping former scientologists recover from
their experience in the cult. Indeed, I have to wonder about the timing of
this latest attack on FACTNet, coming as it does so soon after our
announcement that our emphasis in 1999 will be on helping former
scientologists recover.
This kind of attack is straight out of scientology's play book. Someone
is deliberately instigating this attack on FACTNet, just as someone is
deliberately trying to turn critic against critic on ars. Does anyone on
ars doubt that scientology views the situation on the internet as a war?
Does anyone doubt that scientology is prepared to do whatever it takes to
destroy ars and its critics? Does anyone seriously doubt that scientology is
behind the protracted spam attack on ars?
Think about it: who has the most to gain from creating a mob mentality that
will cause the critics on ars to turn against critics and FACTNet, the only
counter cult group willing to confront scientology?
I urge Deana, Anti-Cult and Martin Hunt to consider whose hands they are
playing into by leading this assault against FACTNet. Scientologists are
experts in the art of manipulation, and that is exactly what they are doing
here. Imagine the glee David Miscavige will feel when he receives the
compliance report to his order to turn ars against FACTNet. His operatives
in OSA are doing an excellent job of wreaking havoc on this newsgroup. And
the ars critics who are going along with this attack like puppets on a string
are giving Miscavige and his OSA lieutenants a real chuckle lately. Don't you
realize how contemptuous they are of you? Can't you see how you are being
manipulated?
But I'm afraid OSA has whipped these people into such a frenzy of hatred at
this point that there is not much chance my appeal to reason will be heard by
them. My message is really to the rest of the people who are watching this
lynching, undoubtedly horrified by it, and wondering what is going on. Have
no doubt that you are seeing a classic black PR caper in action here. Their
attempts to destroy me, Stacy, Jesse, Grady and Lawrence individually have
failed miserably. Now they are trying a new tactic: Destroy FACTNet, thereby
destroying the work all of us are trying to do to help scientologists.
None of us in FACTNet will let this happen. FACTNet will continue its work to
help former scientologists, no matter what kinds of attacks scientology
launches to stop us. This current strategy will not stop us any more than
their earlier strategies have.
I urge all of you to join us in our work to defuse scientology's evil. I
particularly urge Deana, Anti-Cult and Martin to recognize that FACTNet is
not the enemy here. We should all be working together.
Alan Barclay
Bob Minton <b...@minton.org> wrote:
>I urge all of you to join us in our work to defuse scientology's evil. I
>particularly urge Deana, Anti-Cult and Martin to recognize that FACTNet is
>not the enemy here. We should all be working together.
Make the first step then.
Make the efforts to verify the 'Dorian' story that have been asked of
you. If the verification shows that the story is a falsification, then
announce this, and stop promoting it.
Deana Marie Holmes
<snipt>
Where's your evidence, you fucking sanctimonious bastard?
You'd better have evidence, because if you don't (and I happen to know
that you don't, that this is a DA), you will reap the whirlwind.
Now go off and find your evidence, you prick. And go to hell after
that.
Deana Marie Holmes / member of the "Gang of Three" (Rod Keller)
The Few, The Proud, The Banned (2x + 1 ISP on Scientology ban list)
$cientology: Sponsor Windows84: "Where CAN'T you go today?
mir...@xmission.com
DeoMorto
>>Now I will point out the obvious: Nothing could make OSA happier than to
watch the critics on a.r.s. trash FACTNet and the people who are trying to
move FACTNet in the direction of helping former scientologists recover from
their experience in the cult. Indeed, I have to wonder about the timing of
this latest attack on FACTNet, coming as it does so soon after our
announcement that our emphasis in 1999 will be on helping former
scientologists recover>>
I read your post with interest, Bob. It is, of course, no surprise that OSA
has infiltrated people into organizations that it feels are inimical to the Cof
S and I would definitely guess that FACTNET would be at the top of the list.
I don't know what is fuelling the latest list of rabidness about FACTNET but
I would certainly be willing to assume that OSA would view increased activity
on your part coupled with FACTNET to be a large threat.
But - and I have to say that this is a big but - one of the things that I
personally have liked about ARS is that people are free to argue and even be
nasty about their feelings for what one or another is doing or saying. It is
the antithesis of scientology in that regard.
I have a lot of admiration (and, no I do not want money from you) for
stepping into what must, at times, be a bewildering world of
critic/da/propaganda - and of your own free will no less and I wanted to
encourage you to continue with what you are doing and don't worry about the
crap that flies around. It will fly where it will - some of it will be OSA
inspired, some of it will just be sheer orneryness of all the different
critiics on here but in the end it won't matter. Either the truth about
scientology will get out or it won't - being drawn into defending yourself and
your actions is just a distraction.
Sorry this isn't the lucid message I had hoped it would be - the basic point
of it all was to say - hey you have done a great job so far, don't sweat the
occasional burst of crap that comes up!!
And, I am sure Jesse has pointed this out - this girl isn't the first and she
won't be the last.
DeoMorto - the truly censored.
A. Lurker
That's telling 'em, Holmes!
Don't let Minton ask for rapprochement without getting in "bastard"
"fucking sanctimonious" and "you prick" and "go to hell". Your
spew as measured by a percentage of profanity/message is
on the up-stat. Good work!
I guess this is why you didn't become a mediator after wasting your
time at law school. <grin>
Ron Newman
> Her name is Laura Terepin. She is a whore who works for the devil named
> Scientology. Jesse Prince will post details of how we came to discover her
> activities and her daily reports to OSA in LA when he leaves Wellspring in a
> couple of days.
Say, if you have such evidence, why didn't you post it now instead
of promising it 2 days later?
--
Ron Newman rne...@thecia.net
http://www2.thecia.net/users/rnewman/
Ralph Hilton
>In article <36a3ec05...@news.tiac.net>, b...@minton.org (Bob Minton) wrote:
>
>> Her name is Laura Terepin. She is a whore who works for the devil named
>> Scientology. Jesse Prince will post details of how we came to discover her
>> activities and her daily reports to OSA in LA when he leaves Wellspring in a
>> couple of days.
>
>Say, if you have such evidence, why didn't you post it now instead
>of promising it 2 days later?
Who the F is Laura Terepin? I missed quite a few posts amidst the spamming.
Is Bob going to respond to questions?
Is Jesse going to respond to questions?
Or are such exalted beings above the need for communication?
--
Ralph Hilton
http://Ralph.Hilton.org
Stacy Brooks
>Think about it: who has the most to gain from creating a mob mentality that
>will cause the critics on ars to turn against critics and FACTNet, the only
>counter cult group willing to confront scientology?
>
I think it is extremely important for all of us to realize that scientology
does consider this a war, and they are utilizing all of the tactics of warfare
that they have learned from their policies and the books they are assigned to
read as part of their intelligence training. The booklist that we were all
required to read included Sun Tzu's The Art of War, Clausewitz's On War, and
Sefton Delmar's Black Boomerang, a book which was included because it was
about successful black PR operations during World War II.
This attack on FACTNet has all the earmarks of an OSA black PR operation, and
so far it has been working very well.
Let me give you a quote from a scientology bulletin titled The Third Party
Law, 26 December 1968:
"I have for a long time studied the causes of violence and conflict amongst
individuals and nations.
"If Chaldea could vanish, if Babylon could turn to dust, if Egypt could become
a badlands, if Sicily could have 160 prosperous cities and be a looted ruin
before the year zero and a near desert ever since - and all this in SPITE of
all the work and wisdom and good wishes and intent of human beings, then it
must follow as the dark follows sunset that something must be unknown to Man
concerning all his works and ways. And that this something must be so deadly
and so pervasive as to destroy all his ambitions and his chances long before
their time.
"Such a thing would have to be some natural law unguessed at by himself.
"And there is such a law, apparently, that answers these conditions of being
deadly, unknown and embracing all activities.
"The law would seem to be:
"A THIRD PARTY MUST BE PRESENT AND UNKNOWN IN EVERY QUARREL FOR A CONFLICT TO
EXIST.
"Or:
"FOR A QUARREL TO OCCUR, AN UNKOWN THIRD PARTY MUST BE ACTIVE IN PRODUCING IT
BETWEEN TWO POTENTIAL OPPONENTS.
"Or:
"WHILE IT IS COMMONLY BELIEVED TO TAKE TWO TO MAKE A FIGHT, A THIRD PARTY MUST
EXIST AND MUST DEVELOP IT FOR ACTUAL CONFLICT TO OCCUR.
"It is very easy to see that two in conflict are fighting. They are very
visible. What is harder to see or suspect is that a third party existed and
actively promoted the quarrel…."
The point is not whether this is true or not, or whether Hubbard was
delusional or whether his hyperbolic writing style was even worth the paper it
was printed on. The point is that scientologists believe this Third Party Law
to be utterly and unfailingly true. And what they call "Third Party tech" is
one of the main intelligence tools they use to break up any organized
resistance against them.
This is what is being done on ars. For those who remember COINTELPRO, this is
how the FBI broke up organizations like the Black Panther Party. They used
agents provocateurs. They created rifts between the leaders. They got them at
each other's throats, and then let them destroy their own organization. The
FBI just sat back and watched them destroy themselves.
What I am trying to say is that scientology has a new strategy. It is to use
ars to destroy FACTNet so that FACTNet will be powerless to help anyone coming
out of scientology. Please don't assist them in this srategy.
If you have a disagreement with something FACTNet has done, or something that
an associate of FACTNet has done, we should get together to discuss our
differences. But don't let scientology manipulate us into becoming enemies. We
aren't enemies. We have common goals.
Don't let scientology drive a wedge between us. We should be working together.
Stacy Brooks
John M. Vreeland (Vreejack)
>
>
> Her name is Laura Terepin. She is a whore who works for the devil named
> Scientology. Jesse Prince will post details of how we came to discover her
> activities and her daily reports to OSA in LA when he leaves Wellspring in a
> couple of days.
This is embarrasing. Do you have any idea how it looks to be denouncing people
like this without evidence? The charge is difficult to believe, and so you
create an entire atmosphere where even your friends are left wondering how they
can defend this outburst.
I don't know what was said that made you explode like this, but relax. Have a
soothing cup of tea. Have patience with your critics. All of them. Remember
that we are not out to get you. Don't take it personally when someone seems to
resent you.
And the evidence had better be good to justify all this anxiety. Especially
since Kisser doesn't seem to believe you.
And as for FACTNet, if I give them money I expect to be allowed to criticise
them. Tell Dorian his Darwin is terrible. He sounds like a... dare I say...
"pseudo-intellectual."
Vreejack
Stacy Brooks
> If you have proof that Laura Terepin is an OSA plant you need to
>present it. If you have no evidence that she is a plant for OSA, at the
>very least you should apologize to her. At the most you have libeled
>her.
> In any case using the very same Dead Agent tatics that Scientology uses
>is distastefull. Pot........kettle.......black
This is not a matter of using dead agent tactics. I am the one Laura was run
in on. I was extremely unwilling to believe that Laura was an agent, because I
had come to consider her a very good friend and confidant and I was telling
her literally everything that was going on. I was presented with evidence that
was incontrovertible and still I refused to believe it. It was impossible for
me to believe that this person whom I had trusted so completely could really
be betraying me so terribly.
But several things happened that finally made it impossible for me to deny it
any longer.
There have been two women run in on me before her. Both followed the same
pattern she did. Both totally disappeared once they discovered they were
blown. Laura did the same thing.
There is no way ever to be one hundred percent sure that someone is an agent.
Any kind of evidence can be explained away. All I can say is that, to my
dismay, there were finally so many indications that she was an agent that I
very reluctantly had to conclude that she was.
Stacy Brooks
Deana Marie Holmes
wrote:
>In article <36a3ec05...@news.tiac.net>, b...@minton.org (Bob Minton) wrote:
>
>> Her name is Laura Terepin. She is a whore who works for the devil named
>> Scientology. Jesse Prince will post details of how we came to discover her
>> activities and her daily reports to OSA in LA when he leaves Wellspring in a
>> couple of days.
>
>Say, if you have such evidence, why didn't you post it now instead
>of promising it 2 days later?
If Jesse's in Wellspring, how come I got an email from him today about
something posted in a.r.s? If he's on a retreat in Wellspring, I
would imagine he wouldn't have much access to the Net, but I could be
wrong. It just struck me as passing odd.
Deana Marie Holmes
wrote:
>Don't let scientology drive a wedge between us. We should be working together.
Where's your proof, Stacy Brooks?
We want to see your proof, not your DAs.
John M. Vreeland (Vreejack)
Ralph Hilton wrote:
>
> Who the F is Laura Terepin? I missed quite a few posts amidst the spamming.
>
I asked the same question online. A lot of people know her although she never
posts here. I hear (second-hand) that Cinthia Kisser asked Bob Minton what the
evidence was but that he was not forthcoming. I also hear (from a different
ear) that this is old news that has finally leaked. A few people knew but only
Bob failed to keep the secret.
> Is Bob going to respond to questions?
> Is Jesse going to respond to questions?
> Or are such exalted beings above the need for communication?
Yeah, right. As if the gods would deign to address us individually. Besides,
there is a growing list of people who would not TALK to Bob Minton. I
understand where they are coming from. Even the appearance of making an
unfounded allegation/denunciation is the height of irresponsibility.
Even if the allegation is true, Minton will still owe us an apology for
exploding like that.
This is sad. Even if he had posted a lot of heresay TODAY, we could have read
it and said either "It is compelling evidence that she has sinned" or "It is
blarney and insufficient, you are wrong about her." Without evidence we begin
to suspect that there is none to provide. And so Minton comes off looking like
KOTM.
Personally I suspect that he just got really upset with someone else who found
some buttons to push. No excuse. Never lose your cool. Flame wars never earn
you any respect.
-Vreejack
Bob Minton
wrote:
>On Tue, 19 Jan 1999 05:17:25 GMT, sta...@ix.netcom.com (Stacy Brooks)
>wrote:
>
>>Don't let scientology drive a wedge between us. We should be working together.
>
>Where's your proof, Stacy Brooks?
>
>We want to see your proof, not your DAs.
>
Take my word for it Deana--the proof is in my hands.
Bob
Cat O'Blivion
> Her name is <snip>.
I have, as yet, seen no proof that the woman you named is what you
claim she is. While you assure us that Jesse will be posting proof
forthwith, I seem to recall similar assurances about the veracity
of the Dorian tales, and will believe it when I see it.
> Now I will point out the obvious: Nothing could make OSA happier than to
> watch the critics on a.r.s. trash FACTNet and the people who are trying to
> move FACTNet in the direction of helping former scientologists recover from
> their experience in the cult. Indeed, I have to wonder about the timing of
> this latest attack on FACTNet, coming as it does so soon after our
> announcement that our emphasis in 1999 will be on helping former
> scientologists recover.
It is unbecoming for an organization devoted to helping people
to participate in the kind of dead-agenting you do above. It is
unbecoming for an organization devoted to informing people to publish
misinformation and unverified stories on their website alongside
verifiable first-hand accounts, as though they were of similar
veracity.
Put your figurative guns down, Bob - we're only the messengers.
Most of the critics who have criticized FACTnet have not done so
without cause.
> I urge all of you to join us in our work to defuse scientology's evil.
I would love to, but I have some grave reservations about the tactics
currently employed by FACTnet. When those are alleviated, I will
gladly support you. I'll be one of the first to volunteer.
> I
> particularly urge Deana, Anti-Cult and Martin to recognize that FACTNet is
> not the enemy here. We should all be working together.
I find it ironic that you claim that FACTnet is not the enemy in the
same post where you so adequately demonstrate scientological "dead
agenting" skills. If you're not the enemy, why are you borrowing
their tactics?
Cat
SP4, KoX
--
Stop the Spam on alt.religion.scientology - http://www.xenu.net
"I dare you, to be real, to touch a flickering flame..."
- Bauhaus -
John M. Vreeland (Vreejack)
Stacy Brooks wrote:
>
> Don't let scientology drive a wedge between us. We should be working together.
>
> Stacy Brooks
Yes. I have not forgotten this. We are like annoying neighbors on a block
where at the end of the street is the mother of all annoying neighbors:
ScientologyŽ
There is a qualitative difference between "Mirele doesn't like me" and
"Scientology doesn't like me."
But now Bob Minton is losing his cool and alienating people. Not good. I
don't care how upset he is he can't go around losing his temper in public if he
wants any respect.
Tell him to chill, Stacy. Tell him to read your message.
-Vreejack
Russell Shaw
Bob Minton wrote in message <36a3ec05...@news.tiac.net>...
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>Let me set the record straight on a couple of points because I'm fed-up
with
>the carping, sanctimonious bullshit and hypocrisy by a handful of carpers,
>sanctimonious bullshitters and hypocrites on ars.
Me too!!!
On this point, Bob & I totally agree.
>A few others on ars who are among my most virulent critics have also asked
>for outright handouts from me and I have declined.
Well, Bob I have been among your most virulent critics - and have never
asked you for anything. So on this point, we disagree.
>I cannot help everyone who needs help for God's sake.
Again, I have to agree with you. For God's sake.
>There are hypocrites at
>work here on ars and we all need to ask who they are really working for.
Yes. Great point. Maybe get a list of their employers. Anyone who does
not **fully** agree with all you have said is just a damn stupid fool. And
the sooner they realize it - the better.
>Now I will point out the obvious: Nothing could make OSA happier than to
Well, here we are together again. ANYTHING that "makes OSA happy" makes me
happy.
>Does anyone seriously doubt that scientology is
>behind the protracted spam attack on ars?
Yes.
>the ars critics who are going along with this attack like puppets on a
string
>are giving Miscavige and his OSA lieutenants a real chuckle lately. Don't
you
>realize how contemptuous they are of you? Can't you see how you are being
>manipulated?
Exactly. Instead have Bob manipulate you. That is *good*. Anything else
is "bad".
>I urge all of you to join us in our work to defuse scientology's evil. I
>particularly urge Deana, Anti-Cult and Martin to recognize that FACTNet is
>not the enemy here. We should all be working together.
If Deana, Anti-Cult and Martin will just shape up - you are "there dude".
>
>Bob Minton
__
I started out with nothing... I still have most of it.
It just doesn't get any better - than a post from Russell Shaw, Phoenix.
John M. Vreeland (Vreejack)
-Vreejack
Tilman Hausherr
Marie Holmes) wrote:
>Where's your evidence, you fucking sanctimonious bastard?
A)
What do you expect? That he taped the phone call where you allegely said
"Bob, why don't you fund a position for me at FACTNet"?
If this is true, it is really silly of you. Bob isn't the employment
office for a.r.s. members.
B)
Now about this Laura Terepin - Bob/Stacy, please consider a setup by OSA
in reverse, i.e. that they try to make it appear that she is a plant.
(They did this with Michael Flynn - teling him that one of his clients
was a plant, while actually plant(s) were working in his office)
In germany, there is a critic who has already accused several people of
being pseudo-ex-scientologists or OSA plants. Among them is even one guy
who published an anti-scientology book.
The best if you think that someone is a plant is 1. make a setup, i.e.
tell an information to the plant only and see the reaction, 2. if it is
confirmed, profit from the plant by having it work. For example, in
Clearwater the plants help to increase our picketing stats.
C)
I wish FACTNet would remove the Dorian and the Fable stuff - this is
indeed not in character for an organisation that has the word FACT in
it. Think about the second one - should it be called FABLENet ?
Tilman
--
Tilman Hausherr [KoX, SP4]
til...@berlin.snafu.de http://www.snafu.de/~tilman/#cos
Resistance is futile. You will be enturbulated. Xenu always prevails.
Clearwater pictures: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Oracle/4497/clearwater/index.html
Find broken links on your web site: http://www.snafu.de/~tilman/xenulink.html
Annoy scientology by buying books: http://www.snafu.de/~tilman/bookstore.html
Keith Henson
: Ralph Hilton wrote:
: >
: > Who the F is Laura Terepin? I missed quite a few posts amidst the spamming.
: I asked the same question online. A lot of people know her although she never
: posts here. I hear (second-hand) that Cinthia Kisser asked Bob Minton what the
: evidence was but that he was not forthcoming. I also hear (from a different
: ear) that this is old news that has finally leaked. A few people knew but only
: Bob failed to keep the secret.
Actually, Bob (and a considerable number of other people) have known this
for several months. I have not talked to Bob about this recently, but the
last I knew about it the group involved had come to the conclution that it
there was nothing more to be gained from keeping it secret and it would be
usefull to make the information public. It is solid evidence from the
limited amount I know about it.
snip
: Personally I suspect that he just got really upset with someone else who
: found some buttons to push. No excuse. Never lose your cool. Flame wars
: never earn you any respect.
: -Vreejack
*Might* have been . . . . On the other hand, when you consider Bob's
background . . . . and the games he has played which involved more money
than I am likely to see in a lifetime, you really have to wonder. I can
remember times that Dr. Timothy Leary played really deep games with people
and even governments. He usually got the results he was looking for,
though sometimes the side effects were personally dire. Maybe "Dorian"
had some significance besides tending to liven things up. Keith Henson
Zane
wrote:
>This is what is being done on ars. For those who remember COINTELPRO, this is
>how the FBI broke up organizations like the Black Panther Party. They used
>agents provocateurs. They created rifts between the leaders.
The FBI did indeed use a number of nasty tricks agains the BPP, AIM,
Cispes, Earth-First!, and etc. Some of their most notorious tricks
(such as getting one BPP member to kill another) relied on existing
failures to communicate. OSA is similarly preying on the stuborness
you and others have shown regarding the Dorian stuff.
Bob's apparent repeated posts of Dorian's insane rants, and Bob's
apparent complete intransigence when it comes to answering or even
recognizing criticisms has caused one of the worst rifts I've seen in
all my years on ARS.
If you and Bob want to see some healing of wounds and some solidarity
then it's time to get down here with the ground-troops and have a
little Q&A session, full of honesty and free of innuendo, guilt-trips,
and holier-than-thou pronouncments. Serious. Work to undo the rift,
or see it continue to get wider.
Zane - KoX, SP4, Club Nine
Free meme innoculations!
Zane
<jmv...@infi.net> wrote:
>Tell Dorian his Darwin is terrible. He sounds like a... dare I say...
>"pseudo-intellectual."
ROFLMAO! You're far too generous.
Arnie Lerma
Another operative for osa has been confirmed by me today.
Details tommarro night.
I told a few folks I trust about this story on irc #scientology2
while
Bob and FACTNet were being flamed.
I'll tell the rest of you tommarro.
For the record, none of us are perfect, but Im quite proud to be
amongst those who are perfectly human, flaws, warts and all and not
on that 50's technology driven fantasy ride to delusion that
is Scientology.
The empire of greed is seething with hatred for those who
would dare expose them.
And for those who would dare support those who do so.
The real evil in scientology will not stay buried much longer.
Arnie Lerma
Ex-deluded adherent
Those who would like to encourge
distribution of information to
people not on the interent, please send stamps 55 cent
denomination
to Citizens Against Corruption
6045 N 26th Rd
Arlington VA 22207
Please indicate whether you want public acknowlegment on ars
All gifts are considered confidential and ananymous unless
otherwise indicated.
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Secrets are the mortar binding
bricks as lies together into prisons for the mind.
I'd prefer to die speaking my mind than live fearing to speak.
The only thing that always works in scientology are its lawyers
The internet is the liberty tree of the 90's http://www.lermanet.com
Roland
>
<large snip>
> I urge all of you to join us in our work to defuse scientology's evil. I
> particularly urge Deana, Anti-Cult and Martin to recognize that FACTNet is
> not the enemy here. We should all be working together.
>
> Bob Minton
I would say that we should all be working against the same evil
rather than all working together. Only strong personalities will
dare oppose the Co$ and strong personalities are less likely to
agree with each other. You will never get a common agreement
about how to fight the Co$. It is better if each of the strong
personalities juts gets on with what they feel is the approach
that will succeed. In some cases it will be wrong. Sometimes
right.
Roland
Rebecca Hartong
Cat O'Blivion wrote in message ...
>In article <36a3ec05...@news.tiac.net>, b...@minton.org (Bob Minton)
wrote:
>
>> Her name is <snip>.
>
>I have, as yet, seen no proof that the woman you named is what you
>claim she is. While you assure us that Jesse will be posting proof
>forthwith, I seem to recall similar assurances about the veracity
>of the Dorian tales, and will believe it when I see it.
There were also similar assurances that proof would be provided that OSA had
poisoned Stacy's cats. We're still waiting for that...
Deana Marie Holmes
wrote:
>John M. Vreeland (Vreejack) <jmv...@infi.net> wrote:
>
>: Ralph Hilton wrote:
>: >
>: > Who the F is Laura Terepin? I missed quite a few posts amidst the spamming.
>
>: I asked the same question online. A lot of people know her although she never
>: posts here. I hear (second-hand) that Cinthia Kisser asked Bob Minton what the
>: evidence was but that he was not forthcoming. I also hear (from a different
>: ear) that this is old news that has finally leaked. A few people knew but only
>: Bob failed to keep the secret.
>
>Actually, Bob (and a considerable number of other people) have known this
>for several months. I have not talked to Bob about this recently, but the
>last I knew about it the group involved had come to the conclution that it
>there was nothing more to be gained from keeping it secret and it would be
>usefull to make the information public. It is solid evidence from the
>limited amount I know about it.
No, Keith.
It came out because Bob was backed into a corner over questions over
FACTNet, and he lashed out.
Well, there's going to be hell to pay, I guarantee you.
Deana Marie Holmes
Minton) wrote:
>On Tue, 19 Jan 1999 06:05:25 GMT, mir...@newsguy.com (Deana Marie Holmes)
>wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 19 Jan 1999 05:17:25 GMT, sta...@ix.netcom.com (Stacy Brooks)
>>wrote:
>>
>>>Don't let scientology drive a wedge between us. We should be working together.
>>
>>Where's your proof, Stacy Brooks?
>>
>>We want to see your proof, not your DAs.
>>
>Take my word for it Deana--the proof is in my hands.
Gee, you did such a wonderful job of showing it to Cynthia Kisser.
(Hint: you didn't show it to her even though she asked more than once
and made arrangements.)
Plus, I don't ever want you to communicate with me again in any way,
shape or form. Personally I think you're disgusting. I don't care
about you Dead Agenting *me*, but my God, to DA a person that none of
us have ever heard of...well, that's the height of meanness.
Rob Clark
>On Tue, 19 Jan 1999 00:09:34 -0500, rne...@thecia.net (Ron Newman)
>wrote:
>>Say, if you have such evidence, why didn't you post it now instead
>>of promising it 2 days later?
>If Jesse's in Wellspring, how come I got an email from him today about
>something posted in a.r.s? If he's on a retreat in Wellspring, I
>would imagine he wouldn't have much access to the Net, but I could be
>wrong. It just struck me as passing odd.
why? if they don't actually have a net computer at wellspring, people there are
allowed to come and go as they please.
rob
Mike O'Connor
bobm...@cultofscientology.net (Bob Minton) wrote:
> Take my word for it Deana--the proof is in my hands.
>
> Bob
Bob Minton, did you write the above message? Why did you use this account
instead of your normal one, and why isn't it PGP signed? Just checking.
Bob, did you or anyone associated with FactNet write this anonymous
message? I hope you'll answer in a PGP signed message in the newsgroup.
With all those OSA ops on you, using PGP in your messages would probably
go a long way in helping keep things straight. At least it would prove to
some that you personally disclaim the message. Thanks!
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
From: Anonymous <nob...@replay.com>
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
Subject: FACTnet loses whatever credibility it had remaining
Date: 18 Jan 1999 01:39:20 +0100
Organization: mail...@replay.com
Message-ID: <1999011800...@replay.com>
References: <36a2568d...@enews.newsguy.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: basement.replay.com
X-NNTP-Posting-Host: basement.replay.com [194.109.9.44]
X-XS4ALL-Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 01:39:22 CET
As usual, Deana Holmes is pissed off at being cut
out of the employment pie at FACTNet.
Doesn't the title of the articles itself admit that it is
the "self-declared" founder of Scientology speaking out?
And why do you think that a statement by a person you
never met, Ralph Dorian, is less reliable than all the other
testimonials reckoned to be scripture by other critics' pages.
Aznaran? Wakefield? Tabayoyon? Armstrong? Erlich?
How do you know that Ward didn't make up the story about
his mother and his wife's bank?
How do we know that Holme's really has picketed as much as
she *said* she has?
No she and anticult just see this as another way of bashing Minton.
It's not so much that she is flaming someone; after all, that is the
basic unit of currency here on the internet. But she is
kicking at someone who is suffering intense harassment by scientology.
She kicks a person when he is down.
And she had asked him for a job at FACTNet, too.
I bet she didn't tell anyone this on a.r.s!
Deana Holmes: one icky lady.
Luckily her sex with Ron Newman did not result in more bad genes
being spread into the world. Good riddance to poor white trash like her.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
--
Mike O'Connor - lep...@panix.com
<http://www.panix.com/~lepton/>
Ishmael
Hash: SHA1
On Tue, 19 Jan 1999 03:10:17 GMT, mir...@newsguy.com (Deana Marie
Holmes) wrote thusly:
}On Tue, 19 Jan 1999 02:24:48 GMT, b...@minton.org (Bob Minton) wrote:
}
}<snipt>
}
}Where's your evidence, you fucking sanctimonious bastard?
}
}You'd better have evidence, because if you don't (and I happen to
know
}that you don't, that this is a DA), you will reap the whirlwind.
}
}Now go off and find your evidence, you prick. And go to hell after
}that.
I find it amazing. It am amazed at how some people will take
absolute, total, complete and utter advantage of someone's else's
patience and sense of fairness. I am not a close confidant of Bob
Minton, but based on my few conversations with him, what I've read
from him and what my gut tells me, I have to conclude that his
ingenuousness in indeed genuine.
I have only one bit of advice for you, Ms. Holmes: beware of what you
call, for it will come to you.
Ishmael
}Deana Marie Holmes / member of the "Gang of Three" (Rod Keller)
}The Few, The Proud, The Banned (2x + 1 ISP on Scientology ban list)
}$cientology: Sponsor Windows84: "Where CAN'T you go today?
}mir...@xmission.com
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Doubts of all things earthly, and intuitions of some things heavenly; this
combination makes neither believer nor infidel, but makes a man who regards
them both with equal eye.--Herman Melville
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Rinder will blow 09:30 GMT 10 Feb., 1999
Keith
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>
>
> Another operative for osa has been confirmed by me today.
>
> Details tommarro night.
>
I want to beat you to the punch Arnie here is a list of OSA
spies:
1. Bob Minton
2. Vaughn Young
3. Grady Ward
4. Steve Allen
5. Stacy Brooks
6. Cynthia Kisser
7. Rick Ross
8. Keith Henson
9. Bill Clinton
10. Oprah Winfrey
I hired a PI to follow them and get there phone records and they have
been reporting into Mike Rinder weekly, submitting KR on all of you.
What a bunch a shit.
Keith
Patrick L. Humphrey
[...]
>I want to beat you to the punch Arnie here is a list of OSA
>spies:
[Keith's list deleted -- he's gotta quit doing what his Rice Krispies tell him
to do]
>I hired a PI to follow them and get there phone records and they have
>been reporting into Mike Rinder weekly, submitting KR on all of you.
>What a bunch a shit.
That's a pretty accurate summation of the content of your post, Keith.
There's hope fer ya.
--PLH, not particularly worried about the OSA fantasy du jour
©Anti-Cult®
In Message-ID: <36a3ec05...@news.tiac.net>
b...@minton.org (Bob Minton).
From: ARSCC.
Wrote on the subject: The enemy is amongst us!:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>Let me set the record straight on a couple of points because I'm fed-up with
>the carping, sanctimonious bullshit and hypocrisy by a handful of carpers,
>sanctimonious bullshitters and hypocrites on ars.
Yeah, then kick their bloody asses, or kick them bloody. Admit that is
what you want to do Minton :-)
>
>Deana at best mis-remembered or at worst lied. She did ask me for work (I
>told her that I personally had nothing for her to do) but that FACTNet had a
>number of projects that needed volunteers. That was not good enough for
>Ms. Holmes -- she needed money. I told her FACTNet could not afford to pay
>people at that stage because of a lack of resources. She had the solution
>- - - --"Bob, why don't you fund a position for me at FACTNet"?
>
>A few others on ars who are among my most virulent critics have also asked
>for outright handouts from me and I have declined. They have e-mailed me
>praising my efforts and sucking up big time. That is not why I do what I do
>vis-a-vis Co$. I declined to assist some of these people. They then went back
>door via Stacy to try and convince her that I should listen more carefully to
>the merits of their needs or case.
I have never asked you for anything Minton. May that be very clear to
this NG: I have never, and will never ask Minton or anyone else for money
or handouts if you want to call it that. My fight against the criminal
cult of scientology, have so far been done with my own resources, and it
will stay that way. The web space I have on other servers however, have
been given to me free of charge, that I admit.
>
>I cannot help everyone who needs help for God's sake. There are hypocrites at
>work here on ars and we all need to ask who they are really working for.
Well, they aren't more hypocrites than you Bob, and they surely aren't
working for you :-)
>
>Need you think I am being alarmist, FACTNet, yes FACTNet, discovered an OSA
>operative who had been run in on Stacy back in May 1998 for the express
>purpose of gathering intelligence on my activities and Stacy's. OSA was
>successful. They had unfettered access to information about me and my
>whereabouts, Stacy's inner circle of friends, FACTNet records, Dan Leipold's
>office, Graham Berry's office and other juicy bits of info. Not only that,
>this plant had worked for the Cult Awareness Network for years and was an
>intimate friend of Cynthia Kisser, Craig Branch and a number of others active
>in the counter-cult movement.
>
>Her name is Laura Terepin. She is a whore who works for the devil named
>Scientology. Jesse Prince will post details of how we came to discover her
>activities and her daily reports to OSA in LA when he leaves Wellspring in a
>couple of days.
And the cats that were poisoned Bob? Oh, now I remember... They weren't.
You just said so...
>
>Now I will point out the obvious: Nothing could make OSA happier than to
>watch the critics on a.r.s. trash FACTNet and the people who are trying to
>move FACTNet in the direction of helping former scientologists recover from
>their experience in the cult. Indeed, I have to wonder about the timing of
>this latest attack on FACTNet, coming as it does so soon after our
>announcement that our emphasis in 1999 will be on helping former
>scientologists recover.
Is Dorian going to be part of that help? Oh, that reminds me:
On 18 Jan 1999 01:59:02 +0100.
In Message-ID: <1999011800...@replay.com>
Anonymous <nob...@replay.com>.
From: mail...@replay.com.
Wrote on the subject: 17JAN - WHERE IS THE TRUTH ON DORIAN???:
>
>We've known that "Dorian" is an old asshole in the Oakland
>hills for a long time after we followed Minton to him the first time in
>the early spring of last year.
>
>But why expose something who is scamming a prominent critic
>*and* is creating much effective third-partying *for* us?
>
>Sincerely,
>
>A.C.
>
Now then, since Minton claims that he met with Dorian, I'm sure he can
confirm or deny the location of Dorian too. Will we ever see him do that?
Hehe, hardly :-)
Now then, a straight and very simple question to Minton, and since OSA
apparently already know where Dorian lives, (if that is true) there's no
danger in confirming or denying this:
Bob Minton: Does Dorian live in the Oakland hills?
Note: This question will be repeated on this NG, until an answer is given
by Bob Minton.
>
>This kind of attack is straight out of scientology's play book. Someone
>is deliberately instigating this attack on FACTNet, just as someone is
>deliberately trying to turn critic against critic on ars.
Does that mean in a somewhat not so clear way that you or Factnet had
nothing to do with the anon DA article on Deana? If that's the case, why
don't you just say so in that thread?
>Does anyone on
>ars doubt that scientology views the situation on the internet as a war?
Nop, never have doubted it.
>Does anyone doubt that scientology is prepared to do whatever it takes to
>destroy ars and its critics?
Well, whatever is maybe too much said.
>Does anyone seriously doubt that scientology is
>behind the protracted spam attack on ars?
No, but we need proof.
>
>Think about it: who has the most to gain from creating a mob mentality that
>will cause the critics on ars to turn against critics and FACTNet, the only
>counter cult group willing to confront scientology?
You can easily stop that by answering simple questions Bob.
>
>I urge Deana, Anti-Cult and Martin Hunt to consider whose hands they are
>playing into by leading this assault against FACTNet.
And I urge you Bob, to be more forthcoming, and answer simple questions.
If you want Factnet to have a good reputation, a good advice would be for
you to be more open and communicate.
>Scientologists are
>experts in the art of manipulation, and that is exactly what they are doing
>here.
And the Dorian things from you? Isn't that manipulation?
>Imagine the glee David Miscavige will feel when he receives the
>compliance report to his order to turn ars against FACTNet.
So, do your best then and answer the simple questions that brought this
whole mess up.
>His operatives
>in OSA are doing an excellent job of wreaking havoc on this newsgroup. And
>the ars critics who are going along with this attack like puppets on a string
>are giving Miscavige and his OSA lieutenants a real chuckle lately. Don't you
>realize how contemptuous they are of you? Can't you see how you are being
>manipulated?
Gosh Bob, you are ranting. You almost sound like Dorian now :-)
>
>But I'm afraid OSA has whipped these people into such a frenzy of hatred at
>this point that there is not much chance my appeal to reason will be heard by
>them. My message is really to the rest of the people who are watching this
>lynching, undoubtedly horrified by it, and wondering what is going on. Have
>no doubt that you are seeing a classic black PR caper in action here. Their
>attempts to destroy me, Stacy, Jesse, Grady and Lawrence individually have
>failed miserably. Now they are trying a new tactic: Destroy FACTNet, thereby
>destroying the work all of us are trying to do to help scientologists.
You are Dorian, and I claim my award for exposing you :-)
>
>None of us in FACTNet will let this happen. FACTNet will continue its work to
>help former scientologists, no matter what kinds of attacks scientology
>launches to stop us. This current strategy will not stop us any more than
>their earlier strategies have.
That's good Bob. Keep up the good part of your effort, and drop the bad
parts.
>
>I urge all of you to join us in our work to defuse scientology's evil. I
>particularly urge Deana, Anti-Cult and Martin to recognize that FACTNet is
>not the enemy here. We should all be working together.
I couldn't agree more Bob. However there are some points that we need to
communicate more open about. I know that you also see that. How about if
we start doing that. What do you say?
>
>Bob Minton
>
Sincerely
Sten-Arne
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------
++++++++++++ SACRED CULT SCRIPTURE +++++++++++++
Some people who are deaf or blind might simply have a cluster
sitting on a nerve, and it's gone on so many years the nerve
atrophies. Catatonics may be suffering from this sort of knockout.
This explains why a tactile process works - you run tactile on the
bed, etc, after an accident and the guy comes out of it.
--NED for OTs Series 22
LRH;dm:kjm
Copyright (c) 1978
by L. Ron Hubbard
ALL RIGHTS RESERVED
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
---------------------------------------------------------------------
******* Body thetans? We don't need no stinking Body Thetans! *******
*********** http://www.users.wineasy.se/noname/index.htm ************
* Multimedia: http://www.users.wineasy.se/noname/multimed/index.htm *
**** Public PGP key: http://www.users.wineasy.se/noname/pgp.htm *****
******** The.Galacti...@ThePentagon.com (Anti-Cult) ********
---------------------------------------------------------------------
©Anti-Cult®
In Message-ID: <36aa155c...@news.newsguy.com>
sta...@ix.netcom.com (Stacy Brooks).
From: ARSCC.
Wrote on the subject: Re: The enemy is amongst us!:
>On Tue, 19 Jan 1999 02:24:48 GMT, b...@minton.org (Bob Minton) wrote:
>
>>Think about it: who has the most to gain from creating a mob mentality that
>>will cause the critics on ars to turn against critics and FACTNet, the only
>>counter cult group willing to confront scientology?
>>
>I think it is extremely important for all of us to realize that scientology
>does consider this a war, and they are utilizing all of the tactics of warfare
>that they have learned from their policies and the books they are assigned to
>read as part of their intelligence training. The booklist that we were all
>required to read included Sun Tzu's The Art of War, Clausewitz's On War, and
>Sefton Delmar's Black Boomerang, a book which was included because it was
>about successful black PR operations during World War II.
>
>This attack on FACTNet has all the earmarks of an OSA black PR operation, and
>so far it has been working very well.
>
>Let me give you a quote from a scientology bulletin titled The Third Party
>Law, 26 December 1968:
>
>"I have for a long time studied the causes of violence and conflict amongst
>individuals and nations.
>
>"If Chaldea could vanish, if Babylon could turn to dust, if Egypt could become
>a badlands, if Sicily could have 160 prosperous cities and be a looted ruin
>before the year zero and a near desert ever since - and all this in SPITE of
>all the work and wisdom and good wishes and intent of human beings, then it
>must follow as the dark follows sunset that something must be unknown to Man
>concerning all his works and ways. And that this something must be so deadly
>and so pervasive as to destroy all his ambitions and his chances long before
>their time.
>
>"Such a thing would have to be some natural law unguessed at by himself.
>
>"And there is such a law, apparently, that answers these conditions of being
>deadly, unknown and embracing all activities.
>
>"The law would seem to be:
>
>"A THIRD PARTY MUST BE PRESENT AND UNKNOWN IN EVERY QUARREL FOR A CONFLICT TO
>EXIST.
>
>"Or:
>
>"FOR A QUARREL TO OCCUR, AN UNKOWN THIRD PARTY MUST BE ACTIVE IN PRODUCING IT
>BETWEEN TWO POTENTIAL OPPONENTS.
>
>"Or:
>
>"WHILE IT IS COMMONLY BELIEVED TO TAKE TWO TO MAKE A FIGHT, A THIRD PARTY MUST
>EXIST AND MUST DEVELOP IT FOR ACTUAL CONFLICT TO OCCUR.
>
>"It is very easy to see that two in conflict are fighting. They are very
>visible. What is harder to see or suspect is that a third party existed and
>actively promoted the quarrel…."
>
>The point is not whether this is true or not, or whether Hubbard was
>delusional or whether his hyperbolic writing style was even worth the paper it
>was printed on. The point is that scientologists believe this Third Party Law
>to be utterly and unfailingly true. And what they call "Third Party tech" is
>one of the main intelligence tools they use to break up any organized
>resistance against them.
>
>This is what is being done on ars. For those who remember COINTELPRO, this is
>how the FBI broke up organizations like the Black Panther Party. They used
>agents provocateurs. They created rifts between the leaders. They got them at
>each other's throats, and then let them destroy their own organization. The
>FBI just sat back and watched them destroy themselves.
>
>What I am trying to say is that scientology has a new strategy. It is to use
>ars to destroy FACTNet so that FACTNet will be powerless to help anyone coming
>out of scientology. Please don't assist them in this srategy.
>
>If you have a disagreement with something FACTNet has done, or something that
>an associate of FACTNet has done, we should get together to discuss our
>differences. But don't let scientology manipulate us into becoming enemies. We
>aren't enemies. We have common goals.
>
>Don't let scientology drive a wedge between us. We should be working together.
>
>
>Stacy Brooks
A long Rant Stacy, but not any denial about the anon DA article on Deana.
Minton rants, you rant, and non of you denies that Factnet or any of you
is behind the DA crap...
Is it so hard to spell it out Stacy/Bob?
©Anti-Cult®
In Message-ID: <36a425ca...@news.newsguy.com>
bobm...@cultofscientology.net (Bob Minton).
From: ARSCC, a division of FACTNet.
Wrote on the subject: Re: The enemy is amongst us!:
>On Tue, 19 Jan 1999 06:05:25 GMT, mir...@newsguy.com (Deana Marie Holmes)
>wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 19 Jan 1999 05:17:25 GMT, sta...@ix.netcom.com (Stacy Brooks)
>>wrote:
>>
>>>Don't let scientology drive a wedge between us. We should be working together.
>>
>>Where's your proof, Stacy Brooks?
>>
>>We want to see your proof, not your DAs.
>>
>Take my word for it Deana--the proof is in my hands.
>
>Bob
>
Take my words for it Bob, there runs locomotives on Venus. The proof is
in my mind!
Oh, I almost forgot the standing question:
On 18 Jan 1999 01:59:02 +0100.
In Message-ID: <1999011800...@replay.com>
Anonymous <nob...@replay.com>.
From: mail...@replay.com.
Wrote on the subject: 17JAN - WHERE IS THE TRUTH ON DORIAN???:
>
>We've known that "Dorian" is an old asshole in the Oakland
>hills for a long time after we followed Minton to him the first time in
>the early spring of last year.
>
>But why expose something who is scamming a prominent critic
>*and* is creating much effective third-partying *for* us?
>
>Sincerely,
>
>A.C.
>
Now then, since Minton claims that he met with Dorian, I'm sure he can
confirm or deny the location of Dorian too. Will we ever see him do that?
Hehe, hardly :-)
Now then, a straight and very simple question to Minton, and since OSA
apparently already know where Dorian lives, (if that is true) there's no
danger in confirming or denying this:
Bob Minton: Does Dorian live in the Oakland hills?
Note: This question will be repeated on this NG, until an answer is given
by Bob Minton.
Tilman Hausherr
Marie Holmes) wrote:
>Plus, I don't ever want you to communicate with me again in any way,
>shape or form. Personally I think you're disgusting. I don't care
>about you Dead Agenting *me*, but my God, to DA a person that none of
>us have ever heard of...well, that's the height of meanness.
Why should OSA send an undercover person everyone knows? Maybe people
applying for the position of webmaster while still having their personal
spam page?
Get real!!! In Germany an undercover guy was exposed last year. His name
had been removed from all official lists decades ago.
I suggest you consider treatment for your general anger.
mom...@my-dejanews.com
bobm...@cultofscientology.net (Bob Minton) wrote:
> On Tue, 19 Jan 1999 06:05:25 GMT, mir...@newsguy.com (Deana Marie Holmes)
> wrote:
>
> >On Tue, 19 Jan 1999 05:17:25 GMT, sta...@ix.netcom.com (Stacy Brooks)
> >wrote:
> >
> >>Don't let scientology drive a wedge between us. We should be working together.
> >
> >Where's your proof, Stacy Brooks?
> >
> >We want to see your proof, not your DAs.
> >
> Take my word for it Deana--the proof is in my hands.
>
> Bob
On this Dorian thing: If I wanted to know who someone was, and he wouldn't
tell me but I had his address, I would go to the County of that address and
look up the ownership records of the address. Now, anyone in the
International banking business, or any homeowner for that matter, knows these
ropes. Why have you not done that, Bob? The message that you have posted
indicating that you have heard these horror stories, etc. etc. are no doubt
true; but painting all x-scientologists as victims does not wash and is
untrue and insulting to those of us who do not wear the victim valence. You
make it appear that you have written hundreds of checks to these poor
victims. I wonder how many x-scientologists that you have actually written
checks to? Not me....but then, I am not a victim. The idea that one can
curtail the nefarious activities of huborg by throwing money at x-members is
not an intelligent decision. The Dorian story is so bizarre that it
discredits the manymanymany true experiences that have been revealed by
x-members. I suggest that you contact John Sanborn on this story. I know for
a fact that he was ron's editor for the book Science of Survival
onward.Possibly before that issue. I feel for you. It appears that you are
being used and abused.
jana
>
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Unknown
<jmv...@infi.net> wrote:
You call the things Bob Minton said "flaming"? Then what in thunder
do you call Ms. Holmes' response? She has really made a giant ass of
herself today and in my mind, lost any credibility she may have had.
While it is true that we are going to have disagreements on the NG, by
virture of the fact that we are obviously disenters in the truest
sense of the word, I find it appaling that so many of us cannot have a
little patience and wait to see what is really going on. Instead
there are acusations, name calling and, as Mr. Minton (who btw, I
happen to respect and admire)has pointed out so aptly, playing into
OSA's hand.
Gads, lets not lose sight of our agenda here. Who do you really want
to fight? Bob, Stacy, Jesse or the Co$?
roxthefox1
SP3 and losing some of the Pride
>
>
>Ralph Hilton wrote:
>>
>> Who the F is Laura Terepin? I missed quite a few posts amidst the spamming.
>>
>
>I asked the same question online. A lot of people know her although she never
>posts here. I hear (second-hand) that Cinthia Kisser asked Bob Minton what the
>evidence was but that he was not forthcoming. I also hear (from a different
>ear) that this is old news that has finally leaked. A few people knew but only
>Bob failed to keep the secret.
>
>> Is Bob going to respond to questions?
>> Is Jesse going to respond to questions?
>> Or are such exalted beings above the need for communication?
>
>Yeah, right. As if the gods would deign to address us individually. Besides,
>there is a growing list of people who would not TALK to Bob Minton. I
>understand where they are coming from. Even the appearance of making an
>unfounded allegation/denunciation is the height of irresponsibility.
>
>Even if the allegation is true, Minton will still owe us an apology for
>exploding like that.
>
>This is sad. Even if he had posted a lot of heresay TODAY, we could have read
>it and said either "It is compelling evidence that she has sinned" or "It is
>blarney and insufficient, you are wrong about her." Without evidence we begin
>to suspect that there is none to provide. And so Minton comes off looking like
>KOTM.
>
>Personally I suspect that he just got really upset with someone else who found
>some buttons to push. No excuse. Never lose your cool. Flame wars never earn
>you any respect.
>-Vreejack
When the chips are down the buffalo move on.
Unknown
Holmes) wrote:
>On Tue, 19 Jan 1999 00:09:34 -0500, rne...@thecia.net (Ron Newman)
>wrote:
>
>>In article <36a3ec05...@news.tiac.net>, b...@minton.org (Bob Minton) wrote:
>>
>>> Her name is Laura Terepin. She is a whore who works for the devil named
>>> Scientology. Jesse Prince will post details of how we came to discover her
>>> activities and her daily reports to OSA in LA when he leaves Wellspring in a
>>> couple of days.
>>
>>Say, if you have such evidence, why didn't you post it now instead
>>of promising it 2 days later?
>
>If Jesse's in Wellspring, how come I got an email from him today about
>something posted in a.r.s? If he's on a retreat in Wellspring, I
>would imagine he wouldn't have much access to the Net, but I could be
>wrong. It just struck me as passing odd.
YOU strike me as odd. Put a sock in it Deanna Marie!
>
roxy
>
>Deana Marie Holmes / member of the "Gang of Three" (Rod Keller)
>The Few, The Proud, The Banned (2x + 1 ISP on Scientology ban list)
>$cientology: Sponsor Windows84: "Where CAN'T you go today?
>mir...@xmission.com
When the chips are down the buffalo move on.
Deana Marie Holmes
>You call the things Bob Minton said "flaming"? Then what in thunder
>do you call Ms. Holmes' response? She has really made a giant ass of
>herself today and in my mind, lost any credibility she may have had.
I do not need any credibility from you, Rox.
I would only point out that this arose because I had the gall and the
temerity to ask FACTNet (which is apparently Bob Minton's alter ego)
why it was reposting the Dorian stuff on its page. For that I was
anonymously dead agented, and as far as I can tell, we can see what
Bob's response is: all the Dorian stuff was reposted in a 12 hour
period.
But after Flybrat questioned why Grady Ward was involved with FACTNet,
I guess Bob just blew a gasket and went nuts, posting these
allegations against a woman most of us had never heard of. I can only
believe that he did it now because he had no further information upon
which to DA me or anyone else who had the chutzpah to question Bob's
infinite wisdom, knowledge and forethought.
I'd also note that Bob has said we will not see the proof of these
allegations. Again, it's the same old song and dance. There was no
proof with Dorian, we have to accept it on faith; there is no proof to
be seen with this woman being DA'ed by Bob; we have to accept it on
faith.
Critical thinking seems to be terribly lacking here.
I'm sorry if my filthy mouth got in the way of my message, but here it
is for you, straight up, no swearing.
I am not going to accept anything of such a serious nature (such as an
allegation that a person is an OSA spy) without some proof. We had
such a case on irc #scientology involving wgert. We had no proof
until quite recently, when wgert posted a fax to
alt.binaries.scientology that had come directly from a Scientology
PI's fax machine (the sender was left on the edge of the fax).
Granted, it's not perfect knowledge, but it confirmed what had been
suspected all along.
If Bob expects us to take him seriously, he should pony up the proof.
I suspect he may have a problem with some of that, because some of his
"proof", I am told, involves phone logs. In the United States, it is
generally illegal to get such information without a court order. If
Bob presents such information, his PI may have violated a number of
laws to get it.
Moreover, even if Bob has "proof", it has to be taken in the totality
of the evidence. As I explained to someone I know on IRC, I lived for
six years in an off-campus cooperative at the University of Texas.
Some of my co-residents were drug users, and at least three were
arrested during my last year there for dealing drugs. (See, OSA, you
haven't dug hard enough.) But that was three out of over 120
residents, and that was over a six year period. I could be accused of
living in a drug den, but if you look at the totality of the evidence,
that can't be said to be the case.
I look forward to seeing and dissecting the evidence Bob claims to
have, but I don't think we'll ever see it.
Unknown
Holmes) wrote:
>On Tue, 19 Jan 1999 06:29:05 GMT, bobm...@cultofscientology.net (Bob
>Minton) wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 19 Jan 1999 06:05:25 GMT, mir...@newsguy.com (Deana Marie Holmes)
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Tue, 19 Jan 1999 05:17:25 GMT, sta...@ix.netcom.com (Stacy Brooks)
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>Don't let scientology drive a wedge between us. We should be working together.
>>>
>>>Where's your proof, Stacy Brooks?
>>>
>>>We want to see your proof, not your DAs.
>>>
>>Take my word for it Deana--the proof is in my hands.
>
>Gee, you did such a wonderful job of showing it to Cynthia Kisser.
>(Hint: you didn't show it to her even though she asked more than once
>and made arrangements.)
>
>Plus, I don't ever want you to communicate with me again in any way,
>shape or form. Personally I think you're disgusting. I don't care
>about you Dead Agenting *me*, but my God, to DA a person that none of
>us have ever heard of...well, that's the height of meanness.
Good one Deana, you are a like an onion sandwich, you keep coming back
even though you are grossly unwelcome.
Minton has not attained the height of meanness but, you are surely
about to arrive there. Give it up.
Roxy
>
>
>Deana Marie Holmes / member of the "Gang of Three" (Rod Keller)
>The Few, The Proud, The Banned (2x + 1 ISP on Scientology ban list)
>$cientology: Sponsor Windows84: "Where CAN'T you go today?
>mir...@xmission.com
When the chips are down the buffalo move on.
Keith Henson
snip
: On this Dorian thing: If I wanted to know who someone was, and he wouldn't
: tell me but I had his address, I would go to the County of that address and
: look up the ownership records of the address. Now, anyone in the
Bob has never had "Dorian's" address. Keith Henson
Enzo Piccone
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> Let me set the record straight on a couple of points because I'm fed-up with
> the carping, sanctimonious bullshit and hypocrisy by a handful of carpers,
> sanctimonious bullshitters and hypocrites on ars.
<snip>
If you had even a modicum of awareness that this description applies at
least as much to you as it might to any of the people to whom you refer,
you might -- might, not would -- come across as other than the carping,
sanctimonious, bulshitting hypocrite that you do come across as, and as
often as you do.
E
--
Note: Correct e-mail address is en...@ermes.it.
"Accept in your mind that anything which can happen can happen to you."
Pythagoras
Bruce Scott TOK
Standard counter intelligence practice in WWII was to uniquely feed a
suspected spy a very specific piece of disinformation and watch to see
if it is passed on. Did you try this?
cu,
Bruce
--
"That's the old ecological tale that explains humans' inability to fully
appreciate global warming. To wit: if you drop a frog in a pan of hot
water, it jumps out. If you drop it in a pan of cold water, then turn
the heat up slowly, you can roast it to death." -- Clive Thompson
Chris Owen
<jmv...@infi.net> writes
>
>Ralph Hilton wrote:
>
>> Is Bob going to respond to questions?
>> Is Jesse going to respond to questions?
>> Or are such exalted beings above the need for communication?
>
>Yeah, right. As if the gods would deign to address us individually.
The gods certainly don't deign to answer e-mails from mere mortals.
--
| Chris Owen - chr...@lutefisk.demon.co.uk |
|---------------------------------------------------------------|
| WORLD'S BIGGEST SINCLAIR WEB ARCHIVE: |
| http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/sinclair |
| OFFLINE VERSION: http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/sinclair/plansinc.zip |
Ishmael
Hash: SHA1
On Mon, 18 Jan 1999 20:50:02 -0700, Mek...@ix.netcom.com (Meklar)
wrote thusly:
}In article <36a3ec05...@news.tiac.net>, b...@minton.org (Bob
Minton) wrote:
}
}<snipped>
}
}> Need you think I am being alarmist, FACTNet, yes FACTNet,
discovered an OSA
}> operative who had been run in on Stacy back in May 1998 for the
express
}> purpose of gathering intelligence on my activities and Stacy's. OSA
was
}> successful. They had unfettered access to information about me and
my
}> whereabouts, Stacy's inner circle of friends, FACTNet records, Dan
Leipold's
}> office, Graham Berry's office and other juicy bits of info. Not
only that,
}> this plant had worked for the Cult Awareness Network for years and
was an
}> intimate friend of Cynthia Kisser, Craig Branch and a number of
others active
}> in the counter-cult movement.
}>
}> Her name is Laura Terepin. She is a whore who works for the devil
named
}> Scientology. Jesse Prince will post details of how we came to
discover her
}> activities and her daily reports to OSA in LA when he leaves
Wellspring in a
}> couple of days.
}
} If you have proof that Laura Terepin is an OSA plant you need to
}present it. If you have no evidence that she is a plant for OSA, at
the
}very least you should apologize to her. At the most you have libeled
}her.
Bob Minton doesn't need to present anything more on this forum than he
already has. To do so, as he stated, would violate attorney-client
privilege and possibly interfere with whatever legal recourse he might
seek.
So unless you're a District Attorney within a jurisdiction pertinent
to this matter don't hold your breath while waiting for Ms. Terepin's
dossier.
} In any case using the very same Dead Agent tactics that
Scientology uses
You're resorting to an ad hominem here. Were's YOU'RE freeking
proof?!
}is distastefull. Pot........kettle.......black
Sure jump on the bandwagon, oh clueless one.
You........idiot........established
} <Snip>
}
}> Think about it: who has the most to gain from creating a mob
mentality that
}> will cause the critics on ars to turn against critics and FACTNet,
the only
}> counter cult group willing to confront scientology?
}
} The critics have always been a loose confederation, not a
federation as
}some would think.
Finally a statement based on reality. You might consider that if OSA
is extremely frightened of the power that a "loose confederation" has
in exposing their crimes and abuses wouldn't it make sense that they
would ardently desire to destroy the aforementioned "confederation" in
the event that it becomes more organized?
I believe that Bob Minton's effects on scientology goe light years his
money. He's an organizer and he would still be an organizer if he was
broke. And I'll guarantee you (and OSA) this: if Bob Minton woke up
tomorrow without a dime to his name he would not want for anything
that his friends could provide.
}>
}<snipped>
}
}> Bob Minton
}>
}>
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}-Meklar SP???-
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=Ou7B
Dave Bird
<b...@minton.org> writes
>Let me set the record straight on a couple of points because I'm fed-up with
>the carping, sanctimonious bullshit and hypocrisy by a handful of carpers,
>sanctimonious bullshitters and hypocrites on ars.
>told her that I personally had nothing for her to do) but that FACTNet had a
>number of projects that needed volunteers. That was not good enough for
>Ms. Holmes -- she needed money. I told her FACTNet could not afford to pay
>people at that stage because of a lack of resources. She had the solution
>- - --"Bob, why don't you fund a position for me at FACTNet"?
>A few others on ars who are among my most virulent critics have also asked
>for outright handouts from me and I have declined. They have e-mailed me
>praising my efforts and sucking up big time. That is not why I do what I do
>vis-a-vis Co$. I declined to assist some of these people. They then went back
>door via Stacy to try and convince her that I should listen more carefully to
>the merits of their needs or case.
I have spoken to you briefly, and to Stacy at greater length. I would
never in a million years expect to be salaried or subsidised by you for
any of my work against CofS (I might suggest some things you could do,
but it's entirely up to you whether you listen). I'm neither an
uncritical supporter nor a rabid critic of yours, with the reservation
that I do think Durian is utter bollocks; but, hey, that's hardly
unusual around here, and is my honest opinion.
In article <36ad19cd...@news.newsguy.com>, Stacy Brooks writes:
>This is not a matter of using dead agent tactics. I am the one Laura was run
>in on. I was extremely unwilling to believe that Laura was an agent, because I
>had come to consider her a very good friend and confidant and I was telling
>her literally everything that was going on.
Hmm. Remember Paulette Cooper's live-in boyfriend.
(I have no evidence whether or not this Terrapin is an OSA plant).
In article <36a48124...@enews.newsguy.com>,
Deana Flintstone <mir...@newsguy.com> writes
>No, Keith.
>
>It came out because Bob was backed into a corner over questions over
>FACTNet, and he lashed out.
You mean the person to blame was the silly arsehole who provoked
him into revealing something better kept quiet?
In article <36aa155c...@news.newsguy.com>, Stacy Brooks
<sta...@ix.netcom.com> writes
>This is what is being done on ars. For those who remember COINTELPRO, this is
>how the FBI broke up organizations like the Black Panther Party. They used
>agents provocateurs. They created rifts between the leaders. They got them at
>each other's throats, and then let them destroy their own organization. The
>FBI just sat back and watched them destroy themselves.
I seriously doubt that they "own" any main figures though. They just
turn up under new anonymous names saying "bite him, Diane", "hit back,
Deana", etc, and trying to set everyone against everyone else.
|~/ |~/
~~|;'^';-._.-;'^';-._.-;'^';-._.-;'^';-._.-;||';-._.-;'^';||_.-;'^'0-|~~
P | Woof Woof, Glug Glug ||____________|| 0 | P
O | Who Drowned the Judge's Dog? | . . . . . . . '----. 0 | O
O | answers on *---|_______________ @__o0 | O
L |{a href="news:alt.religion.scientology"}{/a}_____________|/_______| L
and{a href="http://www.xemu.demon.co.uk/clam/lynx/q0.html"}{/a}XemuSP4(:)
Ishmael
Hash: SHA1
On Tue, 19 Jan 1999 06:01:30 GMT, ra...@hilton.org (Ralph Hilton)
wrote thusly:
}On Tue, 19 Jan 1999 00:09:34 -0500, rne...@thecia.net (Ron Newman)
wrote:
}
}>In article <36a3ec05...@news.tiac.net>, b...@minton.org (Bob
Minton) wrote:
}>
}>> Her name is Laura Terepin. She is a whore who works for the devil
named
}>> Scientology. Jesse Prince will post details of how we came to
discover her
}>> activities and her daily reports to OSA in LA when he leaves
Wellspring in a
}>> couple of days.
}>
}>Say, if you have such evidence, why didn't you post it now instead
}>of promising it 2 days later?
}
}
}Who the F is Laura Terepin? I missed quite a few posts amidst the
spamming.
Nothing to worry yourself about, Ralph. It's all under control, and
it was done without your Oh Tee Powerz. You might want to direct your
intention beams toward DejaNews to pick up the thread.
}Is Bob going to respond to questions?
He already has.
}Is Jesse going to respond to questions?
Probably, but he's busy right now.
}Or are such exalted beings above the need for communication?
Speaking totally for myself as a non-exalted being: fuck you.
Ishmael
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=gKAP
Rebecca Hartong
Keith Henson wrote in message ...
Hasn't Bob claimed that he's been to Dorian's mansion? That he's seen the
windowless room with all the original Scientology manuscriptis? If he's
been there, how did he get there? Was he picked up at some location,
blindfolded, and driven there?
Keith Henson
(Bob Minton wrote)
: }> Her name is Laura Terepin.
There *might* be reason to question this. Keith Henson
Keith Henson
: Keith Henson wrote in message ...
Yes. This has been widely known for months. I think in postings.
Keith Henson
Lisa Chabot
I confused Flybrat's posting with the DA attack made later by "Anonymous".
I am very sorry, I apologize profusely, and I am very embarassed.
(I've cancelled the article with this mistake in it, and I hope it
doesn't go out, but few of my cancels seem to be "taking" on netcom
in regards to spam, so I'm not hopeful.)
Really sorry, please don't kill me (too much, anyway).
Lisa "the 'S' stands for 'stupid mistakes'" Chabot
PS I'm really sorry and I apologize.
.
.
.
--
non-spam can be sent to lsc at this ISP
"What I mean by a shifty eye," continued Miss Marple, "is the kind
that looks very straight at you and never looks away or blinks."
Enzo Piccone
> John M. Vreeland (Vreejack) <jmv...@infi.net> wrote:
>
> : Ralph Hilton wrote:
> : >
> : > Who the F is Laura Terepin? I missed quite a few posts amidst the spamming.
>
> : I asked the same question online. A lot of people know her although she never
> : posts here. I hear (second-hand) that Cinthia Kisser asked Bob Minton what the
> : evidence was but that he was not forthcoming. I also hear (from a different
> : ear) that this is old news that has finally leaked. A few people knew but only
> : Bob failed to keep the secret.
>
> for several months. I have not talked to Bob about this recently, but the
> last I knew about it the group involved had come to the conclution that it
> there was nothing more to be gained from keeping it secret and it would be
> usefull to make the information public. It is solid evidence from the
> limited amount I know about it.
>
> snip
>
> : Personally I suspect that he just got really upset with someone else who
> : found some buttons to push. No excuse. Never lose your cool. Flame wars
> : never earn you any respect.
>
> : -Vreejack
>
> background . . . . and the games he has played which involved more money
> than I am likely to see in a lifetime, you really have to wonder. I can
> remember times that Dr. Timothy Leary played really deep games with people
> and even governments. He usually got the results he was looking for,
> though sometimes the side effects were personally dire. Maybe "Dorian"
> had some significance besides tending to liven things up. Keith Henson
Likening our Bob to Timothy Leary, playing "really deep games with
people and even governments"? LOL Trust you to come up with something
like this, Keith.
Which reminds me, a while back it appeared that you'd convinced yourself
that "Dorian" was real. You also seemed pretty sure of yourself when
you wrote that you thought you knew who he was. Is likening Bob to
Leary an attempt to explain how you could have been duped for as long as
you were?
E
--
Note: Correct e-mail address is en...@ermes.it.
"He looked long in silence, frowning and biting his lips. I waited for
him to say the usual things: stiff, harsh, primitive. But he looked up
as if some pain had gripped him, and said, 'Oh, God, what was it like
when men had certainty like that?'" Mary Renault, from the novel, ~The
Mask of Apollo~.
James J. Lippard
Keith Henson <hkhe...@netcom.com> wrote:
>Actually, Bob (and a considerable number of other people) have known this
>for several months. I have not talked to Bob about this recently, but the
>last I knew about it the group involved had come to the conclution that it
>there was nothing more to be gained from keeping it secret and it would be
>usefull to make the information public. It is solid evidence from the
>limited amount I know about it.
Which is what? Have you seen any of the documentary evidence? What
exactly can you corroborate independently? Anything at all?
--
Jim Lippard lippard@(primenet.com discord.org ediacara.org)
Phoenix, Arizona http://www.primenet.com/~lippard/
PGP Fingerprint: B130 7BE1 18C1 AA4C 4D51 388F 6E6D 2C7A 36D3 CB4F
John M. Vreeland (Vreejack)
Enzo Piccone wrote:
>
> Keith Henson wrote:
>
> > John M. Vreeland (Vreejack) <jmv...@infi.net> wrote:
> >
> > : Ralph Hilton wrote:
> > : >
> > : > Who the F is Laura Terepin? I missed quite a few posts amidst the spamming.
> >
> > : I asked the same question online. A lot of people know her although she never
> > : posts here. I hear (second-hand) that Cinthia Kisser asked Bob Minton what the
> > : evidence was but that he was not forthcoming. I also hear (from a different
> > : ear) that this is old news that has finally leaked. A few people knew but only
> > : Bob failed to keep the secret.
> >
> > Actually, Bob (and a considerable number of other people) have known this
> > for several months. I have not talked to Bob about this recently, but the
> > last I knew about it the group involved had come to the conclution that it
> > there was nothing more to be gained from keeping it secret and it would be
> > usefull to make the information public. It is solid evidence from the
> > limited amount I know about it.
> >
> > snip
> >
> > : Personally I suspect that he just got really upset with someone else who
> > : found some buttons to push. No excuse. Never lose your cool. Flame wars
> > : never earn you any respect.
> >
> > : -Vreejack
> >
> > *Might* have been . . . . On the other hand, when you consider Bob's
> > background . . . . and the games he has played which involved more money
> > than I am likely to see in a lifetime, you really have to wonder. I can
> > remember times that Dr. Timothy Leary played really deep games with people
> > and even governments. He usually got the results he was looking for,
> > though sometimes the side effects were personally dire. Maybe "Dorian"
> > had some significance besides tending to liven things up. Keith Henson
>
> Likening our Bob to Timothy Leary, playing "really deep games with
> people and even governments"? LOL Trust you to come up with something
> like this, Keith.
>
> Which reminds me, a while back it appeared that you'd convinced yourself
> that "Dorian" was real. You also seemed pretty sure of yourself when
> you wrote that you thought you knew who he was. Is likening Bob to
> Leary an attempt to explain how you could have been duped for as long as
> you were?
In the past we all thought ScientologyŽ was too incompetent to pull off
something like the Laura Terepin episode. I think that desperation has caused
competence to crystalize within the church. Someone has been in a condition
of power on this covert operation for a while without getting sent to ethics
on a whim. Who would have thought Hubbard's management techniques were so
effective? They are probably using squirrel-tech.
I think there is a real person who goes along with the nom de plume, "Dorian."
I think he is about as real as L. Ron hubbard. I am more interested in what
Dorian has to offer (if anything -- so far I'm not impressed) than in driving
all over California trying to determine Clarabel's secret identity.
-Vreejack
DeoMorto
to pull off
something like the L**** T****** episode.>>
Jeez Vreejack I am not sure where or what you base that statement on but that
is dangerous complacency when dealing with the cofs.
The cofs has a long history of infiltrating people into organizations. Bear
in mind that people who are recruited for this will quite willingly do or say
anything secure in the knowledge that though they may be telling a lie it is
for the greater good.
The cofs can rationalise any action taken against an opponent - and I mean
any. That does not mean that they will do anything wildly illegal - it just
means that if they did do something wildly illegal against an opponent they
would feel absolutely no shame or remorse or anything other than annoyance
about being found out.
The ONLY thing that stands between the CofS and offing opponents is the law
of the land - not the CofS "ethics" - in fact the cofs would feel totally
justified in executing every opponent they could get their hands on.
I bet that OSA and RTC wonder why they are being criticized when they are
being so restrained...
But back to my main point Vree - the CofS has ideal recruiting fodder in the
oridinary scientologist and has had a lot of experience in infiltrating.
Covert Operations are not an area of incompetency - in fact one of the best
covers they have is that no-one expects a "church" to do this sort of thing
DeoMorto - the truly censored.
NoScieno
> That's telling 'em, Holmes!
>
Stick it in your ear, gadfly.
--
NoScieno accepts NoMail (spam block) Try "Thynkr"(same.isp)
<plonk>
William Barwell
E-mailed and posted.
In article <36aa155c...@news.newsguy.com>,
Stacy Brooks <sta...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>On Tue, 19 Jan 1999 02:24:48 GMT, b...@minton.org (Bob Minton) wrote:
>
>>Think about it: who has the most to gain from creating a mob mentality that
>>will cause the critics on ars to turn against critics and FACTNet, the only
>>counter cult group willing to confront scientology?
>>
>I think it is extremely important for all of us to realize that scientology
>does consider this a war, and they are utilizing all of the tactics of warfare
>that they have learned from their policies and the books they are assigned to
>read as part of their intelligence training.
First rule of war. Don't alienate your allies.
Cynthia Kisser apparantly has had a hard time getting you people to
deal with her over the OSA spy nonsense. Call her up, call your PI up,
and get this settled with Cynthia. If there is proof that she had
been opped by OSA, you and Bob should not leave her twisting in the wind.
Call her now and get this resolved.
The Dorian crap and other nonsense is simply nonsense, but
after a month, Cynthia is still in the dark though you claim
that she has been informed of all of this.
If you all cannot handle THAT, and we know little more than
that this has not been competently dealt with, how can we trust
that you all will handle anything else competently?
Settle this please. And get TROs on the cult.
If Minton has time to post here about the Dorian crap, and he has, he has
time to call the PI and tell him it is OK to talk to Cynthia Kisser.
Cynthia asked for this and it was not done and your PI, quite properly
refused to talk to Cynthia when she called.
This is garbage.
Fix it. Now.
Pope Charles
SubGenius Pope Of Houston
Slack!
Pope Charles
SubGenius Pope Of Houston
Slack!
G. SCARFF
> I want to beat you to the punch Arnie here is a list of OSA
> spies:
>
> 1. Bob Minton
> 2. Vaughn Young
> 3. Grady Ward
> 4. Steve Allen
> 5. Stacy Brooks
> 6. Cynthia Kisser
> 7. Rick Ross
> 8. Keith Henson
> 9. Bill Clinton
> 10. Oprah Winfrey
>
> I hired a PI to follow them and get there phone records and they have
> been reporting into Mike Rinder weekly, submitting KR on all of you.
You forgot Larry Flynt!
>
>
Edwin...@ark.org
>
>
>I lived for
>six years in an off-campus cooperative at the University of Texas.
>Some of my co-residents were drug users, and at least three were
Hey - I never did drugs!
-Edwin Arkie
P.S. I hope your tummy is feeling better.
>arrested during my last year there for dealing drugs. (See, OSA, you
>haven't dug hard enough.) But that was three out of over 120
>residents, and that was over a six year period.
>
>
Arbe
<har...@erols.com> wrote:
> Cat O'Blivion wrote in message ...
> >In article <36a3ec05...@news.tiac.net>, b...@minton.org (Bob Minton)
> wrote:
> >
> >> Her name is <snip>.
> >
> >I have, as yet, seen no proof that the woman you named is what you
> >claim she is. While you assure us that Jesse will be posting proof
> >forthwith, I seem to recall similar assurances about the veracity
> >of the Dorian tales, and will believe it when I see it.
>
>
> There were also similar assurances that proof would be provided that OSA had
> poisoned Stacy's cats. We're still waiting for that...
======
OK rebecca- Please back up the " assurances of proof that OSA had poisoned ....
that you just claimed -- time -date- post - and who said that . . .
I'll believe it when I see it and at least one other real person verifies it ..
====
--
<* ARBE -- SP2 --
<* Spammers and Forgers Note I am a Resident of Washington State
<* Damages limited to what you paid me for my opinion
James J. Lippard
I've neither seen nor heard it before.
Where was the pickup site, and how long was the drive? Even without an
address, he must have some idea of where. (There are other questions
here, too, which could lead to an identity--like, who made the pickup,
what was the make/model/year/license plate number of the pickup vehicle,
etc.)
Alan Barclay
Speak for yourself.
I certainly think it's possible that Scientology pulled off something
like this, however I am not yet convinced that:
a) This is actually what happened
b) Minton's approach has been the correct one
mom...@my-dejanews.com
Keith Henson <hkhe...@netcom.com> wrote:
> mom...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> snip
>
> : On this Dorian thing: If I wanted to know who someone was, and he wouldn't
> : tell me but I had his address, I would go to the County of that address and
> : look up the ownership records of the address. Now, anyone in the
>
Bob said that Dorian lived in a mansion, and that he ( B0b) went into a room
which measured 10x13 ( or whatever) with 9 ft. ceilings. Was this room
floating in space? Was a room set up with "ancient" archives somewhere so
that Bob could go into it?
jana
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Rob Clark
wrote:
[posted and emailed--same as barwell]
>In article <36aa155c...@news.newsguy.com>,
>Stacy Brooks <sta...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>On Tue, 19 Jan 1999 02:24:48 GMT, b...@minton.org (Bob Minton) wrote:
>>>Think about it: who has the most to gain from creating a mob mentality that
>>>will cause the critics on ars to turn against critics and FACTNet, the only
>>>counter cult group willing to confront scientology?
there is apparently a "bunker mentality" at FACTnet mirroring the "mob
mentality" outside. frankly, both outlooks have been growing problems to ars,
and this isn't the first time weird shit on FACTnet has caused problems.
i am frankly doing my best to bolster FACTnet's position where i see it is
defensible. but this dorian shit on FACTnet has pissed me off, as well as
minton not only not responding at all to the very grave impeachments of dorian's
credibility, but instead just blasting out all the dorian shit as reposts then
threatening even more unsubstantiated bogus dorian shit.
>>I think it is extremely important for all of us to realize that scientology
>>does consider this a war, and they are utilizing all of the tactics of warfare
>>that they have learned from their policies and the books they are assigned to
>>read as part of their intelligence training.
>First rule of war. Don't alienate your allies.
>Cynthia Kisser apparantly has had a hard time getting you people to
>deal with her over the OSA spy nonsense. Call her up, call your PI up,
>and get this settled with Cynthia. If there is proof that she had
>been opped by OSA, you and Bob should not leave her twisting in the wind.
i certainly agree here. how the hell can you tell someone like cynthia kisser
all this stuff and expect her to just buy it? cynthia kisser is not an idiot.
frankly, i consider the word and beliefs of cynthia kisser far more important
than those of bob minton and i don't give a good goddamn about their respective
bank accounts.
if kisser says something is bullshit, and minton says otherwise, and claims to
have evidence otherwise, and doesn't produce it, i'm inclined to believe cynthia
kisser, in the absence of any hypothetical evidence.
kisser has not had her credibility impeached in any manner. minton has already
impeached his credibility with this utterly incredible and unbelievable dorian
crap, which smacks of magical thinking.
>Call her now and get this resolved.
>The Dorian crap and other nonsense is simply nonsense, but
>after a month, Cynthia is still in the dark though you claim
>that she has been informed of all of this.
i agree, this is indeed MATERIAL FACTS. and cynthia kisser has done a hell of a
lot more on the front-lines than damn near ANYONE on this newsgroup, including
you, bob.
i am inclined to trust her experience over that of a relative newcomer,
especially with the increasingly-tiresome "i don't need evidence for the likes
of you" refrains FACTnet is spitting out.
cynthia kisser *AIN'T* on the list of people you can just blow off without
permanently losing any shred of credibility. either cynthia gets this
information that DIRECTLY impacts her life, and can then either confirm or deny
this stuff, or you guys will lose a HELL of a lot of credibility.
>If you all cannot handle THAT, and we know little more than
>that this has not been competently dealt with, how can we trust
>that you all will handle anything else competently?
>Settle this please. And get TROs on the cult.
>If Minton has time to post here about the Dorian crap, and he has, he has
>time to call the PI and tell him it is OK to talk to Cynthia Kisser.
>Cynthia asked for this and it was not done and your PI, quite properly
>refused to talk to Cynthia when she called.
>This is garbage.
>Fix it. Now.
i have to admit i'm getting skeptical. i am still doing my best to cut slack to
this, but anyone not completely an idiot would resolve this situation, one way
or the other, IMMEDIATELY.
either this person is an OSA agent or she is not. either this person has phone
records indicating phone calls to OSA or she doesn't.
in either case, i get increasingly suspicious when people make increasingly
elaborate claims, and at all steps UTTERLY REFUSE EVEN THE SLIGHTEST BIT OF
ACTUAL GODDAMN FUCKING EVIDENCE!
i do not think i am some kind of "OSA agent" or deranged idiot for wanting
evidence of someone who has inflicted utter fairy stories like "dorian" on us.
without evidence, i don't believe this person is an OSA agent. i have heard too
many bogus stories without substantiation, or outright wrong, to believe any
crap i hear from anyone (even jesus himself) if he does a song-and-dance when
asked for evidence.
either this person is an OSA agent or they aren't.
either this person has phone records to OSA or they don't.
NOTHING NEW IS NOTHING NEW. substantiate or shut the fuck up.
i hate to get uppity about this, but what the fuck. i have taken shit from
minton people over not just buying this garbage sight unseen. i have taken shit
from anti-minton people over my increasing skepticism.
the only final words i have, to BOTH sides,
are PUT UP OR SHUT UP!
rob
Boudewijn van Ingen
wrote:
No offense, Stacy, but:
>On Mon, 18 Jan 1999 20:50:02 -0700, Mek...@ix.netcom.com (Meklar) wrote:
>
>> If you have proof that Laura Terepin is an OSA plant you need to
>>present it. If you have no evidence that she is a plant for OSA, at the
>>very least you should apologize to her. At the most you have libeled
>>her.
>> In any case using the very same Dead Agent tatics that Scientology uses
>>is distastefull. Pot........kettle.......black
>
>This is not a matter of using dead agent tactics. I am the one Laura was run
>in on. I was extremely unwilling to believe that Laura was an agent, because I
>had come to consider her a very good friend and confidant and I was telling
>her literally everything that was going on. I was presented with evidence that
>was incontrovertible and still I refused to believe it. It was impossible for
>me to believe that this person whom I had trusted so completely could really
>be betraying me so terribly.
What "evidence that was incontrovertible" exactly?
>But several things happened that finally made it impossible for me to deny it
>any longer.
What "several things"?
>There have been two women run in on me before her. Both followed the same
>pattern she did. Both totally disappeared once they discovered they were
>blown. Laura did the same thing.
What "two women"? What "same pattern"?
>There is no way ever to be one hundred percent sure that someone is an agent.
>Any kind of evidence can be explained away. All I can say is that, to my
>dismay, there were finally so many indications that she was an agent that I
>very reluctantly had to conclude that she was.
Is that the reason you are restricting yourself to presenting only
your conclusions here? That you wouldn't like others to have a look at
the "evidence", because *they* might come to the conclusion that it
isn't as "incontrovertible" as you thought?
Please do realize that sofar you (and Bob) merely presented an
allegation here. And yes, that basically is the same tactic that
$cientology uses all the time. Not very impressive, I must say.
Personally, I cannot see the "advantage" of keeping things like this
"evidence" (or the background story about "Dorian") to yourselves. I
would think that being as honest and open to the outside world about
anything you feel or know, can only help. Not only to prevent the
endless (and perhaps often baseless) speculation on this newsgroup,
but also to effectively and immediately counter any -supposed-
"attack" by $cientology.
And last but not least, being honest and open will help yourself. Life
is so much less complicated without secrets...
Of course, explanations are the first thing. But you probably will
have to admit that your opinions have been wrong once in a while, as
soon as you adopt this "openness". And even the occasional apology
will be required for. If it is that you're afraid of, I'll be sorry to
hear it.
Now, if you don't mind, I'll be turning back my attention to
$cientology. My time is already stretched. I do not need these
apparently baseless distractions from the real battle.
Groeten,
Boudewijn, Kox.
"I guarantee you that isn't true," said Mike Rinder, a top official for Scientology
Boudewijn van Ingen
Minton) wrote:
>On Tue, 19 Jan 1999 06:05:25 GMT, mir...@newsguy.com (Deana Marie Holmes)
>wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 19 Jan 1999 05:17:25 GMT, sta...@ix.netcom.com (Stacy Brooks)
>>wrote:
>>
>>>Don't let scientology drive a wedge between us. We should be working together.
>>
>>Where's your proof, Stacy Brooks?
>>
>>We want to see your proof, not your DAs.
>>
>Take my word for it Deana--the proof is in my hands.
>
>Bob
So I guess it's "true for you", huh?
It seems you have some reason for keeping this "proof" up your sleeve.
A reason that needs to be surrounded by secrecy, apparently. I suppose
you must think that is a "wise" thing to do.
I happen to think that what you're doing is very silly, given the
history of this war, and I cannot help myself but wonder about your
motives.
BTW: No! I won't take anybody's "word" for any claim, if it is
presented in this fashion. I might as well be a $cientologist myself
if I would.
Cat O'Blivion
> She is a whore who works for the devil named
> Scientology.
You know, after seeing the word "whore" bandied about here, and
in the title of 2 threads (and one binary on a.b.s.), started
by bobm...@cultofscientology.net, who does not PGP-sign his
posts and may or may not be you, I feel I would be remiss in
my role as a.r.s. token ballbusting feminist if I didn't ask
you to knock off the sexist/sexual slurs. It's offensive -
not just to the woman in question, but also to sex workers,
feminists and women in general.
If you wouldn't use the word to describe a man who did the
exact same thing, don't use it for a woman.
You didn't particularly appreciate it when OSA referred
to Stacy as a whore, and I'm sure Stacy didn't either.
No matter what this woman has or hasn't done to you, please
consider how such labels feel before applying them to
another human being.
Thank you.
Cat
SP4, KoX
--
Stop the Spam on alt.religion.scientology - http://www.xenu.net
"I dare you, to be real, to touch a flickering flame..."
- Bauhaus -
Frank Copeland
Rob Clark <xe...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>i am frankly doing my best to bolster FACTnet's position where i see it is
>defensible. but this dorian shit on FACTnet has pissed me off, as well as
>minton not only not responding at all to the very grave impeachments of dorian's
>credibility, but instead just blasting out all the dorian shit as reposts then
>threatening even more unsubstantiated bogus dorian shit.
I have little time for the "dorian shit" either, but isn't it time to, like,
get over it? There's plenty of other questionable material out there, by no
means all of it on FACTNet. The "dorian shit" simply doesn't warrant the
attention it's getting.
It should be evident by now that harping on about it simply provokes Bob to
keep posting it. The people obsessed with it are at least as guilty as he is
for keeping it in the public eye.
The whole business is now just tedious, and it's time to let it drop.
- --
Home Page: <URL:http://thingy.apana.org.au/~fjc/>
Not the Scientology Home Page: <URL:http://thingy.apana.org.au/~fjc/scn/>
Keep it in Usenet. E-mail replies and 'courtesy' copies are not welcome.
If you're selling, I ain't buying.
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Boudewijn van Ingen
Hear, hear!
On Tue, 19 Jan 1999 07:59:48 GMT, z_thomas#ars#@ix.netcom.com (Zane)
wrote:
>On Tue, 19 Jan 1999 05:17:25 GMT, sta...@ix.netcom.com (Stacy Brooks)
>wrote:
>
>>This is what is being done on ars. For those who remember COINTELPRO, this is
>>how the FBI broke up organizations like the Black Panther Party. They used
>>agents provocateurs. They created rifts between the leaders.
>
>The FBI did indeed use a number of nasty tricks agains the BPP, AIM,
>Cispes, Earth-First!, and etc. Some of their most notorious tricks
>(such as getting one BPP member to kill another) relied on existing
>failures to communicate. OSA is similarly preying on the stuborness
>you and others have shown regarding the Dorian stuff.
>
>Bob's apparent repeated posts of Dorian's insane rants, and Bob's
>apparent complete intransigence when it comes to answering or even
>recognizing criticisms has caused one of the worst rifts I've seen in
>all my years on ARS.
>
>If you and Bob want to see some healing of wounds and some solidarity
>then it's time to get down here with the ground-troops and have a
>little Q&A session, full of honesty and free of innuendo, guilt-trips,
>and holier-than-thou pronouncments. Serious. Work to undo the rift,
>or see it continue to get wider.
>
>
>
>Zane - KoX, SP4, Club Nine
>
>Free meme innoculations!
Bob Minton
>In article <36a3ec05...@news.tiac.net>, b...@minton.org (Bob Minton) wrote:
>
>> She is a whore who works for the devil named
>> Scientology.
>
>You know, after seeing the word "whore" bandied about here, and
>in the title of 2 threads (and one binary on a.b.s.), started
>by bobm...@cultofscientology.net, who does not PGP-sign his
>posts and may or may not be you, I feel I would be remiss in
>my role as a.r.s. token ballbusting feminist if I didn't ask
>you to knock off the sexist/sexual slurs. It's offensive -
>not just to the woman in question, but also to sex workers,
>feminists and women in general.
>
>If you wouldn't use the word to describe a man who did the
>exact same thing, don't use it for a woman.
Mike Rinder, Marty Rathbun, Norman Starkey, David Miscivage--they are all
whores! And anyone else, male or female, that sells out to scientology
perversion of humanity for evil in order to destroy lives for money is also a
whore.
I in no way mean whore is a sexist way and I am sorry if it has offended
anyone.
>You didn't particularly appreciate it when OSA referred
>to Stacy as a whore, and I'm sure Stacy didn't either.
>No matter what this woman has or hasn't done to you, please
>consider how such labels feel before applying them to
>another human being.
>
>Thank you.
>
And thank you for drawing your concerns to my attention so that I could
clarify my position.
Bob Minton
Diane Richardson
wrote:
>In article <hkhensonF...@netcom.com>,
>Keith Henson <hkhe...@netcom.com> wrote:
>>Rebecca Hartong <har...@erols.com> wrote:
>>
>>: Keith Henson wrote in message ...
>>: >mom...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>>: >
>>: >snip
>>: >
>>: >: On this Dorian thing: If I wanted to know who someone was, and he
>>: wouldn't
>>: >: tell me but I had his address, I would go to the County of that address
>>: and
>>: >: look up the ownership records of the address. Now, anyone in the
>>: >
>>: >Bob has never had "Dorian's" address.
>>
>>: Hasn't Bob claimed that he's been to Dorian's mansion? That he's seen the
>>: windowless room with all the original Scientology manuscriptis? If he's
>>: been there, how did he get there? Was he picked up at some location,
>>: blindfolded, and driven there?
>>
>>Yes. This has been widely known for months. I think in postings.
>
>I've neither seen nor heard it before.
>
>Where was the pickup site, and how long was the drive? Even without an
>address, he must have some idea of where. (There are other questions
>here, too, which could lead to an identity--like, who made the pickup,
>what was the make/model/year/license plate number of the pickup vehicle,
>etc.)
The most interesting thing about this claim to me was that it was not
voiced by Stacy Young (who told me about it in a phone call) until
*after* it was suggested by others on a.r.s.
I asked Stacy why Bob Minton would be willing to place himself in
such a vulnerable position (being blindfolded and taken to an unknown
location by people unknown to him) when, after all, he calls himself
Scientology's Public Enemy Number One. After all, it doesn't seem to
be very prudent to put yourself in such danger when you have the CoS
as an enemy.
Stacy could not answer the question adequately. Her only response was
that Bob was just "that kind of a guy" or something like that.
Diane Richardson
ref...@bway.net
M. Ouimette
wrote:
>On Tue, 19 Jan 1999 05:17:25 GMT, sta...@ix.netcom.com (Stacy Brooks)
>wrote:
>
>Bob's apparent repeated posts of Dorian's insane rants, and Bob's
>apparent complete intransigence when it comes to answering or even
>recognizing criticisms has caused one of the worst rifts I've seen in
>all my years on ARS.
>
>If you and Bob want to see some healing of wounds and some solidarity
>then it's time to get down here with the ground-troops and have a
>little Q&A session, full of honesty and free of innuendo, guilt-trips,
>and holier-than-thou pronouncments. Serious. Work to undo the rift,
>or see it continue to get wider.
Bingo. Very well said, Zane. Thank you.
I agree, Stacy, Bob. I've seen entirely too much DAing and not nearly
enough evidence, when you're politely asked, (then rather pointedly
asked :), to provide it.
I'm seeing 'Always Attack, Never Defend', DA, and unsubstantiated rumors
instead the documentation necessary to convince a large and very
unorganized group of critical thinkers with similar goals.
If you want us all to work together, (I'd very much like to!), you're
going to have to talk WITH us, not TO us.
We haven't ever exchanged more than a few words in person, and I don't
know if you've ever read the reasons why I post here. I don't do it
because I hate the CO$ members. I don't do it because I think they're
satanic or godless. I don't do it because I think the CO$ uses mind
control.
I post, read, and picket, because I watched the critics stand up and
document their evidence, with police records, FBI reports, and the CO$'s
own documents. Then I watched the CO$ do -exactly- what they critics
said they would, getting caught in lie after lie when the facts were
actually checked.
How can I NOT continue to look for the facts, to keep my path sure
amidst the billowing flames? How can you, as someone privy to those
very lies during your time in the CO$, how can you not expect that from
all of the critics?
I'd love to be on your side - as long as I'm sure you're still on mine.
Ermine!
Boudewijn van Ingen
wrote:
>On Mon, 18 Jan 1999 20:50:02 -0700, Mek...@ix.netcom.com (Meklar)
>wrote thusly:
>
>}In article <36a3ec05...@news.tiac.net>, b...@minton.org (Bob
>Minton) wrote:
>}
>}<snipped>
>}
>}> Need you think I am being alarmist, FACTNet, yes FACTNet,
>discovered an OSA
>}> operative who had been run in on Stacy back in May 1998 for the
>express
>}> purpose of gathering intelligence on my activities and Stacy's. OSA
>was
>}> successful. They had unfettered access to information about me and
>my
>}> whereabouts, Stacy's inner circle of friends, FACTNet records, Dan
>Leipold's
>}> office, Graham Berry's office and other juicy bits of info. Not
>only that,
>}> this plant had worked for the Cult Awareness Network for years and
>was an
>}> intimate friend of Cynthia Kisser, Craig Branch and a number of
>others active
>}> in the counter-cult movement.
>}>
>}> Her name is Laura Terepin. She is a whore who works for the devil
>named
>}> Scientology. Jesse Prince will post details of how we came to
>discover her
>}> activities and her daily reports to OSA in LA when he leaves
>Wellspring in a
>}> couple of days.
>}
>} If you have proof that Laura Terepin is an OSA plant you need to
>}present it. If you have no evidence that she is a plant for OSA, at
>the
>}very least you should apologize to her. At the most you have libeled
>}her.
>
>Bob Minton doesn't need to present anything more on this forum than he
>already has.
Says who? Because he is "Bob Minton"? Why should "Bob Minton" be
allowed to present apparently unfounded allegations on this forum (a
worldwide public medium) without a challenge??
> To do so, as he stated, would violate attorney-client
>privilege and possibly interfere with whatever legal recourse he might
>seek.
Can anyone explain to me in what way providing evidence for his claims
could possibly "interfere with whatever legal recourse he might seek"?
Perhaps you mean to say that it could "interfere" with his defense
when this "Laura Terepin" presses charges??
>So unless you're a District Attorney within a jurisdiction pertinent
>to this matter don't hold your breath while waiting for Ms. Terepin's
>dossier.
Why did Bob publish these allegations, then?
>} In any case using the very same Dead Agent tactics that
>Scientology uses
>
>
>You're resorting to an ad hominem here. Were's YOU'RE freeking
>proof?!
No see only evidence of DA tactics used. I see no proof. Or it must be
yours. ;-)
>}is distastefull. Pot........kettle.......black
>
>Sure jump on the bandwagon, oh clueless one.
>You........idiot........established
That indeed proves me wrong... NOT!
>} <Snip>
>}
>}> Think about it: who has the most to gain from creating a mob
>mentality that
>}> will cause the critics on ars to turn against critics and FACTNet,
>the only
>}> counter cult group willing to confront scientology?
>}
>} The critics have always been a loose confederation, not a
>federation as
>}some would think.
>
>Finally a statement based on reality. You might consider that if OSA
>is extremely frightened of the power that a "loose confederation" has
>in exposing their crimes and abuses wouldn't it make sense that they
>would ardently desire to destroy the aforementioned "confederation" in
>the event that it becomes more organized?
>
>I believe that Bob Minton's effects on scientology goe light years his
>money. He's an organizer and he would still be an organizer if he was
>broke. And I'll guarantee you (and OSA) this: if Bob Minton woke up
>tomorrow without a dime to his name he would not want for anything
>that his friends could provide.
I do not have any desire for anything that Bob can "provide". I also
tend to think that Bob is not such a good "organizer" as you claim him
to be. Stacy could probably teach him a bit or two about "herding
cats"... ;-)
Boudewijn van Ingen
wrote:
>John M. Vreeland (Vreejack) <jmv...@infi.net> wrote:
>
>: Ralph Hilton wrote:
>: >
>: > Who the F is Laura Terepin? I missed quite a few posts amidst the spamming.
>
>: I asked the same question online. A lot of people know her although she never
>: posts here. I hear (second-hand) that Cinthia Kisser asked Bob Minton what the
>: evidence was but that he was not forthcoming. I also hear (from a different
>: ear) that this is old news that has finally leaked. A few people knew but only
>: Bob failed to keep the secret.
>
>Actually, Bob (and a considerable number of other people) have known this
>for several months. I have not talked to Bob about this recently, but the
>last I knew about it the group involved had come to the conclution that it
>there was nothing more to be gained from keeping it secret and it would be
>usefull to make the information public. It is solid evidence from the
>limited amount I know about it.
Why has't this "information" been made public, then? (If any such
"information" exists?)
>snip
>
>: Personally I suspect that he just got really upset with someone else who
>: found some buttons to push. No excuse. Never lose your cool. Flame wars
>: never earn you any respect.
>
>: -Vreejack
>
>*Might* have been . . . . On the other hand, when you consider Bob's
>background . . . . and the games he has played which involved more money
>than I am likely to see in a lifetime, you really have to wonder.
This tells me more about you than about Bob. I've been "playing
around" with large sums of money (yes, millions of dollars) enough to
know how that *should* feel. I also know the feeling of not having any
money. If Bob loses his "cool" this easily, he shouldn't be in the
"front" he is in currently. And, yes, I *am* really wondering...
> I can
>remember times that Dr. Timothy Leary played really deep games with people
>and even governments. He usually got the results he was looking for,
>though sometimes the side effects were personally dire. Maybe "Dorian"
>had some significance besides tending to liven things up. Keith Henson
Suuure. "Playing games" with people and even governments is allright,
when done by Bob Minton, but not when done by $cientology...
Spiritual Research Workgroup
>Plus, I don't ever want you to communicate with me again in any way,
>shape or form. Personally I think you're disgusting. I don't care
>about you Dead Agenting *me*, but my God, to DA a person that none of
>us have ever heard of...well, that's the height of meanness.
I'm a bit surprised about the violence of these emotions.
Bob has offered his money so often that it shouldn't be considered
impudence if somebody decides to take him up at his offer - neither
by himself nor by others whom he tells about such an attempt.
It also should be clear that while his fortune might be a lot of
money for a single person, it's still peanuts compared with the
funds of the church, or compared with the magnitude of money which
would be needed to set up a worldwide FZ net which could
efficiently compete with the church, so that their members
had an easy alternative. (I believe that this is the only thing
which would stop the church's abuses with tone 40).
Bob's contributions can NEVER cover everything which is needed -
whether he likes it or not, he has to apply them with the same
justness you have left if there is only one watering can
for a whole field which needs water in order to grow.
Which plants do you water, and which will not be able to grow
up because you had only one watering can?
I don't think it's a solution to insult the guy with the one
watering can. He DID his share. My question is, where are all
the others who have water too, but don't bother to bring it
out to the field? What about THEIR shares?
Heidrun Beer
Workgroup for Fundamental Spiritual Research and Mental Training
http://www.sgmt.at
Deana Marie Holmes
>In article <36a4c69...@enews.newsguy.com>, mir...@newsguy.com says...
>>
>>
>>I lived for
>>six years in an off-campus cooperative at the University of Texas.
>>Some of my co-residents were drug users, and at least three were
>
>Hey - I never did drugs!
>
>-Edwin Arkie
>
>P.S. I hope your tummy is feeling better.
Hey!
Who are you! This is amazing! It's been years since I've heard from
Edwin Arkie!
kEvin
>>>: Hasn't Bob claimed that he's been to Dorian's mansion? That he's seen the
>>>: windowless room with all the original Scientology manuscriptis? If he's
>>>: been there, how did he get there? Was he picked up at some location,
>>>: blindfolded, and driven there?
>>>Yes. This has been widely known for months. I think in postings.
Word of mouth. I've never seen a description of the incident on ars, but
I do remember being told about it at a Mountain View picket. (not the
most recent one either.) Keith tends to think that if he knows it, it
must be common knowledge.
kEvin
m...@primenet.com
G. SCARFF
anyone knows how I could possibly get an internship at a comic book
publisher's/studio. I'm into illustration and comic book art and would love
to get one (I live in western MA.) Of course, I WAS in art school and could
have gotten one through the school but i hated the school and dropped out
(beware of the School of Visual Arts, kids!) If anyone's got a clue I'd love
to hear it. Thanks. -Baker
Martin Hunt
>Let me set the record straight on a couple of points because I'm fed-up with
>the carping, sanctimonious bullshit and hypocrisy by a handful of carpers,
>sanctimonious bullshitters and hypocrites on ars.
Fast and loose with the names; better check that mirror, Bob.
You whine about Scientology being a Bad Thing[tm], then go
and engage in the same behaviour as they do: threatening people
with physical harm, dead-agenting them and assaulting them. Now,
what's that big word that begins with "h" that describes this
kind of behaviour? Hi-something. No, not "hip" or "hippy".
>Deana at best mis-remembered or at worst lied. She did ask me for work (I
>told her that I personally had nothing for her to do) but that FACTNet had a
>number of projects that needed volunteers. That was not good enough for
>Ms. Holmes -- she needed money. I told her FACTNet could not afford to pay
>people at that stage because of a lack of resources. She had the solution
>- - - --"Bob, why don't you fund a position for me at FACTNet"?
>
>A few others on ars who are among my most virulent critics have also asked
>for outright handouts from me and I have declined. They have e-mailed me
>praising my efforts and sucking up big time.
Oh, is this another Bob Dorian message? It's so hard to tell what
with all the garbage spewing from this account. And so many people
use it that the personality portrayed by the account is positively
schizophrenic. Or is that MPD? Whatever.
Hey, Bob, I asked you for some bucks to buy a CD burner (guess what
for) and other equipment; am I your "most virulent critic" and did
I "suck up to you big time"? Gee, I'm sorry; you could have said
"no". Instead, what i got was dead air, from you, from Stacy, twice.
If someone asks you for something, the least you could do is tell
them to fuck off, but I guess you're such a big man, so important
(or is that self-important?) that you don't feel the need to be
even close to polite.
Frankly, I don't consider you an asset to the anti-Scientology
movement; your picket signs alluding to the Holocaust are a
disgusting afront, your behaviour varies from violent to hostile
to bizarre, this Bob Dorian thing makes me question your sanity,
and you're a hypocrite to boot.
"Slapped the dog shit" out of any victims of Scientology recently?
>That is not why I do what I do
>vis-a-vis Co$. I declined to assist some of these people. They then went back
>door via Stacy to try and convince her that I should listen more carefully to
>the merits of their needs or case.
Ah; you're probably alluding to me. When you totally fucking ignored
my email twice, I asked Stacy to forward it to you: you had said
on ars, as I recall, that you were too full of yourself to answer
your email or something.
>I cannot help everyone who needs help for God's sake. There are hypocrites at
>work here on ars and we all need to ask who they are really working for.
I work for Scientology; day and night for the past half decade, I
have worked to support this wonderful organization. Get a fucking
grip, Bob. And lose all contact with Garry Scarff, if you know
what's good for ya (frankly, I doubt you do).
>Need you think I am being alarmist, FACTNet, yes FACTNet, discovered an OSA
>operative who had been run in on Stacy back in May 1998 for the express
>purpose of gathering intelligence on my activities and Stacy's.
Yeah? Do tell; what's this person's name, Bob Dorian? ROTFL!
>OSA was successful.
Yeah, in freaking you out.
>They had unfettered access to information about me and my
>whereabouts, Stacy's inner circle of friends, FACTNet records, Dan Leipold's
>office, Graham Berry's office and other juicy bits of info. Not only that,
>this plant had worked for the Cult Awareness Network for years and was an
>intimate friend of Cynthia Kisser, Craig Branch and a number of others active
>in the counter-cult movement.
>
>Her name is Laura Terepin. She is a whore who works for the devil named
>Scientology.
Careful with those religious allusions; you might break your nail
on one. Scientology isn't the "devil"; it's just some minor corrupt
organization. You sound like Hubbard with all your proselytizing.
>Jesse Prince will post details of how we came to discover her
>activities and her daily reports to OSA in LA when he leaves Wellspring in a
>couple of days.
Sure.
>Now I will point out the obvious: Nothing could make OSA happier than to
>watch the critics on a.r.s. trash FACTNet and the people who are trying to
>move FACTNet in the direction of helping former scientologists recover from
>their experience in the cult.
FACTNet doesn't exist; it's just a gourp of people. A group of
people, imnsho, that are often wrong, misguided, engage in spamming
and fiscal irregularities, are somewhat dishonest, but do certainly
hate Scientology. A group of career critics, if you will. I think
they could use some perspective. It would also help if they were
more forthcoming; in the early days of ars, they simply would not
confront direct questions or answer minor criticism. Some of us have
never quite forgiven them this attitude - particularly since it
never really went away.
>Indeed, I have to wonder about the timing of
>this latest attack on FACTNet, coming as it does so soon after our
>announcement that our emphasis in 1999 will be on helping former
>scientologists recover.
Yeah? Well, I'm a former Scientologist; help me recover. :-) I
guess I'm just nto ready for prime time, eh? Not quite in the loop.
That suits me just fine. Tight knit groups that don't permit of
any criticism just aren't something I'm into any more; I left
that environment for good a decade ago, and have no intention
of returning to it.
Oh, like the picture of the bloody samurai sword, btw; is that
meant to indicate you're out to kill victims of Scientology?
Nice imagery; everyone I know who saw it thought you were a
real fucking asshole. Tell me it ain't so.
>This kind of attack is straight out of scientology's play book.
Yeah; and the boogeyman lives under your bed. Bob, you're mentally
unfit to be a critic or an activist; could you please drop the
anti-Scientology movement and go on to do something else? Go and
fight for some important issue close to your heart; maybe the
environment or overpopulation or civil rights. There's plenty of
causes - you're not doing this one any good.
>Someone
>is deliberately instigating this attack on FACTNet, just as someone is
>deliberately trying to turn critic against critic on ars.
Who gives a flying fuck? Strength in diversity; just remember those
words.
>Does anyone on
>ars doubt that scientology views the situation on the internet as a war?
Does anyone on ars doubt that you've done bizarre things lately?
Maybe you've got a brain tumour; I've heard of people wigging out
when they get one of those. Go get a check-up; I think there's
something wrong with you. Your post is tantamount to a paranoid
rant, and you seem to spend most of your energy attacking critics.
>Does anyone doubt that scientology is prepared to do whatever it takes to
>destroy ars and its critics?
Yes; I don't think, for example, that they'll take up weapons and
descend on us poor critics and wipe us all out.
>Does anyone seriously doubt that scientology is
>behind the protracted spam attack on ars?
I believe they're behind it, but evidence is slim.
>Think about it: who has the most to gain from creating a mob mentality that
>will cause the critics on ars to turn against critics and FACTNet, the only
>counter cult group willing to confront scientology?
Ars is as it ever was - and ever will remain. The day no disenting
voice is allowed, the day no self-criticism is allowed, the day
we're all forced to row together, I'm outta here, man!
>I urge Deana, Anti-Cult and Martin Hunt to consider whose hands they are
>playing into by leading this assault against FACTNet.
I'm not "leading" any "assault" against FACTNet; you're suffering
from paranoid delusions. There's absolutely no doubt in my mind
that Scientology has gotten to you. The problem is, it's gotten
too far, and done too much damage to you. This is really only
a battle for the strong minded; I frankly do not believe you were
prepared for all that has been done to you - and make no mistake,
a lot of evil shit has indeed been done to you. But Scientology
has succeeded; it has fucked with you until you are no longer
who you once were. I sincerely believe you should spend some of
your millions on yourself and fly to Bali and chill out on the beach
for a couple months - and don't take along any means of contact
with the internet or Scientology critics.
>Scientologists are
>experts in the art of manipulation, and that is exactly what they are doing
>here.
They're certainly manipulating you.
>Imagine the glee David Miscavige will feel when he receives the
>compliance report to his order to turn ars against FACTNet.
I don't do this for/against DM's glee. Frankly, DM's glee is a
non-issue with me.
You see this all as some grand battle with these people, don't you?
When I see DM, I see a victim, someone who wasn't given a chance at
a normal life, someone who was mindfucked by the master when only
a child, and who will never recover. He may be your nemesis, but
to me, he's a pathetic figure, deserving only of my sympathy. He
will never have what I have, and I feel sorry for that.
>His operatives
>in OSA are doing an excellent job of wreaking havoc on this newsgroup.
Who cares? Nothing they do can stop the global ass-reaming the cult
is getting *right now*, and will continue to get for the forseeable
future.
>And
>the ars critics who are going along with this attack like puppets on a string
>are giving Miscavige and his OSA lieutenants a real chuckle lately.
You're the puppet; DM's got you dancing the paranoid jig all over
the place, going off half-cocked and making an ass of yourself.
You're divisive as hell; if DM has any immediate source of glee,
it is over your own behaviour, and how easy you are to manipulate.
>Don't you
>realize how contemptuous they are of you? Can't you see how you are being
>manipulated?
Take a long look in a full-length mirror. Then take a deep breath.
Then depart for a well-earned rest; you're stressed out, and it
shows.
>But I'm afraid OSA has whipped these people into such a frenzy of hatred at
>this point that there is not much chance my appeal to reason will be heard by
>them.
"Isn't it ironic?" - Alanis Morisette.
>My message is really to the rest of the people who are watching this
>lynching, undoubtedly horrified by it, and wondering what is going on.
Here's what's going on, for the confused: ars is now as it ever was,
and ever will be: a free for all where any opinion and any fact is
posted. Bob has engaged in some pretty irrational behaviour, and has
been chided for it. The source of Bob's irrational behaviour is the
stress the cult of Scientology has so artfully applied to him. Bob
needs a rest.
>Have
>no doubt that you are seeing a classic black PR caper in action here. Their
>attempts to destroy me, Stacy, Jesse, Grady and Lawrence individually have
>failed miserably.
Their attempt to destroy me has failed even more miserably. :-)
>Now they are trying a new tactic: Destroy FACTNet, thereby
>destroying the work all of us are trying to do to help scientologists.
I don't believe FACTNet is in any new danger; certainly not from
anything I might have said.
>None of us in FACTNet will let this happen. FACTNet will continue its work to
>help former scientologists, no matter what kinds of attacks scientology
>launches to stop us. This current strategy will not stop us any more than
>their earlier strategies have.
You have carefully lumped Sten, Deana, myself, and other critics
in with Scientology; was that your intention?
>I urge all of you to join us in our work to defuse scientology's evil. I
>particularly urge Deana, Anti-Cult and Martin to recognize that FACTNet is
>not the enemy here. We should all be working together.
No, we shouldn't. In any case, FACTNet didn't take me up on my
offer to volunteer to create a media index of thousands of newspaper
articles, citing possible legal constraints. How can we possibly
"work together", then? Better we work apart.
I have no problem with people working for FACTNet; the more the
merrier - just as long as they aren't wrecking themselves in the
process, which is what I honestly believe you are doing to yourself.
You know, if the whole of FACTNet disappeared tomorrow and everyone
went on vacation, things would go on much as they always have. No
one is indispensable, not even the great Bob Minton.
--
Cogito, ergo sum. Just the FAQs: http://scientologysucks.lron.com
"...you are replying to an off-topic forged message that was posted
by a 'bot. The person whose name appears in the From: header of that
message almost certainly did not post it. Many regulars on a.r.s.,
including me, have been victims of these forgeries.
This appears to be a CoS plot to discredit critics by associating us
with racist and pro-Nazi statements that we did not in fact make."
- Ron Newman
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Martin Hunt
til...@berlin.snafu.de (Tilman Hausherr) wrote:
>I wish FACTNet would remove the Dorian and the Fable stuff - this is
>indeed not in character for an organisation that has the word FACT in
>it. Think about the second one - should it be called FABLENet ?
Seconded.
Just the facts, ma'am.
Martin Hunt
sta...@ix.netcom.com (Stacy Brooks) wrote:
>This is not a matter of using dead agent tactics. I am the one Laura was run
>in on. I was extremely unwilling to believe that Laura was an agent, because I
>had come to consider her a very good friend and confidant and I was telling
>her literally everything that was going on.
All of which makes me question your judgment!
it absolutely floors me who people will trust these days; people
are *far* too free and loose with their deepest level of trust.
What's the gain in finding some stranger, someone who's hardly
known at all, and just giving all your trust to them?
I've had Scientology agents in my house, as well as some of
the the cult's most well-known critics; there's no *way* I would
trust some stranger and just tell them everything off the top
of my head like that! There's many things that I simply have not
told anyone here. Why should I? There's risk, and no possible
gain. Things remain a secret just so long as you don't tell
anyone else; you should be harder and tougher, Stacy. Don't be
so free with your trust when it comes to matters Scientological.
It's probably not just you that you burn, but others who trusted
you. I guess they learned a hard lesson here too.
>I was presented with evidence that
>was incontrovertible and still I refused to believe it. It was impossible for
>me to believe that this person whom I had trusted so completely could really
>be betraying me so terribly.
It's impossible for me to believe that you would trust some stranger
so completely! You surely lack judgment in these matters, and after
all you've been through, that's amazing.
>But several things happened that finally made it impossible for me to deny it
>any longer.
>
>There have been two women run in on me before her. Both followed the same
>pattern she did. Both totally disappeared once they discovered they were
>blown. Laura did the same thing.
In future, trust no one. Why bother trusting them? I don't trust
anyone when it comes to this. In other matters, it's not so
important, but when it comes to Scientology, I'd ask Nan McLean
for photo ID and have a nagging doubt in the back of me 'ead about
Gerry Armstrong. Frankly, there's simply no good reason to trust
anyone. Obviously double agents are apparently very trustworthy
people, so why trust anyone?*
*Don't apply to matters outside this domain, of course. I'm
talking about Scientology only.
>There is no way ever to be one hundred percent sure that someone is an agent.
Right!
>Any kind of evidence can be explained away.
Our minds are good at that.
>All I can say is that, to my
>dismay, there were finally so many indications that she was an agent that I
>very reluctantly had to conclude that she was.
And you might be right and you might be wrong, but be more
circumspect in the future, OK?
--
Cogito, ergo sum. Just the FAQs: http://scientologysucks.lron.com
"...you are replying to an off-topic forged message that was posted
by a 'bot. The person whose name appears in the From: header of that
message almost certainly did not post it. Many regulars on a.r.s.,
including me, have been victims of these forgeries.
This appears to be a CoS plot to discredit critics by associating us
with racist and pro-Nazi statements that we did not in fact make."
- Ron Newman
Martin Hunt
Arnie Lerma <Ar...@newsguy.com> wrote:
> Another operative for osa has been confirmed by me today.
Hope you have some good, solid evidence.
> Details tommarro night.
OK.
And, if anyone's wondering if I'm an operative, well, I'm not. :-)
You see, they wouldn't pay my fee of $10,000.
Martin Hunt
rne...@thecia.net (Ron Newman) wrote:
>In article <36a3ec05...@news.tiac.net>, b...@minton.org (Bob Minton) wrote:
>
>> Her name is Laura Terepin. She is a whore who works for the devil named
>> Scientology. Jesse Prince will post details of how we came to discover her
>> activities and her daily reports to OSA in LA when he leaves Wellspring in a
>> couple of days.
>
>Say, if you have such evidence, why didn't you post it now instead
>of promising it 2 days later?
It sounds more dramatic this way. Keeps us all in suspense.
Laura, if you're out there, I'd like to hear your side of the
story; email me, please.
I've heard too many loose-flung accusations for one day. Arnie
says there's another operative that's been "confirmed". Say,
how do you confirm an operative, anyways? What's the usual
MO for that?
--
Cogito, ergo sum. Just the FAQs: http://scientologysucks.lron.com
"...you are replying to an off-topic forged message that was posted
by a 'bot. The person whose name appears in the From: header of that
message almost certainly did not post it. Many regulars on a.r.s.,
including me, have been victims of these forgeries.
This appears to be a CoS plot to discredit critics by associating us
with racist and pro-Nazi statements that we did not in fact make."
- Ron Newman
.
.
.
Martin Hunt
ra...@hilton.org (Ralph Hilton) wrote:
>Who the F is Laura Terepin? I missed quite a few posts amidst the spamming.
Never heard her name before. Apparently, a few morons and idiots
misplaced their trust in her. Of course, she's a nobody, so they
get what they deserve.
>Is Bob going to respond to questions?
Not effing likely. He's as difficult to elicit a response from
as a clam.
>Is Jesse going to respond to questions?
See above.
>Or are such exalted beings above the need for communication?
Yes. All we get is pronouncements from on high in the most
condescending of terms with vague aspersions cast on our
characters for, like, asking if Bob was into buying me some
computer equipment I was going to use to distribute Scientology's
retarded bullshite secrets all over the effing world. He wasn't
into it, but didn't have the balls to tell me to fuck off when I
asked, several months ago. It would have been the polite thing to
do. But gods are seldom polite, are they? Too full of themselves,
I guess. <shrug>
Well, the project will have to wait until I scrape up the
bucks for myself. :-)
Martin Hunt
"John M. Vreeland (Vreejack)" <jmv...@infi.net> wrote:
>LOL Not every odd thing implies a conspiracy, Deana Holmes.
She didn't say any such thing:
>If Jesse's in Wellspring, how come I got an email from him today about
>something posted in a.r.s? If he's on a retreat in Wellspring, I
>would imagine he wouldn't have much access to the Net, but I could be
>wrong. It just struck me as passing odd.
"Passing odd" is a long way from "conspiracy", John. It strikes
me as passing odd, too; I thought Wellspring was a retreat? Ah,
well; whatever.
Martin Hunt
sta...@ix.netcom.com (Stacy Brooks) wrote:
>This attack on FACTNet has all the earmarks of an OSA black PR operation, and
>so far it has been working very well.
I doubt it. Working in what sense?
[Snip Hubbard's paranoid ranting]
>The point is not whether this is true or not, or whether Hubbard was
>delusional or whether his hyperbolic writing style was even worth the paper it
>was printed on. The point is that scientologists believe this Third Party Law
>to be utterly and unfailingly true.
But I don't. People fight for all kinds of reasons, few of them
having anything to do with other people.
>And what they call "Third Party tech" is
>one of the main intelligence tools they use to break up any organized
>resistance against them.
But the tool doesn't work. It's invalid "tech". Take a look at
Usenet someday. Not just ars, but just any old newsgroup. What
you see is flames everywhere, conflict, argument, debate, criticism.
Is Scientology behind all the flamewars on Usenet's thousands of
newsgroups, or just this one?
Just because there's conflict on ars doesn't mean that the
cult is behind it. No causal link has been established. For
example, I might be arguing in my spare time.
>This is what is being done on ars.
Prove it. You made a claim, now back it up. Prove that anything
other than Bob's sheer fucking arrogance and weird behaviour has
made me slightly critical of him.
>For those who remember COINTELPRO, this is
>how the FBI broke up organizations like the Black Panther Party. They used
>agents provocateurs. They created rifts between the leaders. They got them at
>each other's throats, and then let them destroy their own organization. The
>FBI just sat back and watched them destroy themselves.
Yeah, but this ain't like no other organization you've ever seen,
or the world's ever seen. It has a life of its own, a mind of its
own, and is decentralized, not dependent on "leaders".
>What I am trying to say is that scientology has a new strategy.
I thought it was the same old crap which hasn't done a thing for
them except manufacture enemies for the past half century?
>It is to use
>ars to destroy FACTNet so that FACTNet will be powerless to help anyone coming
>out of scientology. Please don't assist them in this srategy.
ROFL. I think's Scn's new strategy is to drive you and Bob and
the hard-working FACTNet crew 'round the bend. :-)
>If you have a disagreement with something FACTNet has done, or something that
>an associate of FACTNet has done, we should get together to discuss our
>differences.
If I have a disagreement with something FACTNet, Bob, or God
hisself has done, I'm posting it to alt.religion.scientology.
>But don't let scientology manipulate us into becoming enemies. We
>aren't enemies. We have common goals.
I'm skeptical. What goal do we have in common?
>Don't let scientology drive a wedge between us. We should be working together.
No, we should be working apart. You do your thang, and I do mine.
Arnie's rowing together didn't work, and this latest attempt at
conformity is a waste of precious typing.
Let's all do our own thing, OK? I'm just not happy with Nazi
signs, blood-dripping samurai swords, slapping the dog shit out
of people, shotguns, threats of beatings, DA attacks, Bob Dorian,
and arrogant, self-obsessed fuckwads.
YMMV.
--
Cogito, ergo sum. Just the FAQs: http://scientologysucks.lron.com
"...you are replying to an off-topic forged message that was posted
by a 'bot. The person whose name appears in the From: header of that
message almost certainly did not post it. Many regulars on a.r.s.,
including me, have been victims of these forgeries.
This appears to be a CoS plot to discredit critics by associating us
with racist and pro-Nazi statements that we did not in fact make."
- Ron Newman
Martin Hunt
bobm...@cultofscientology.net (Bob Minton) wrote:
>Take my word for it Deana--the proof is in my hands.
I thought that was a blood-soaked sword?
Steve A
>
> Standard counter intelligence practice in WWII was to uniquely feed a
> suspected spy a very specific piece of disinformation and watch to see
> if it is passed on. Did you try this?
Known it the trade (British) as a "marked fiver", referring to a piece
of currency with a mark on it, used to determine its source.
Tom Clancy also talks about "canary traps" - several versions of a
report with slight variations in wording, used to determine which copy
of a report the leak originated from.
All good standard counter-espionage stuff.
--
Steve A, SP4++, GGBC, KBM, Unsalvageable PTS/SP #12,
pitiable little Dennie (plD) #1, non-Mintonista.
Banned by Windows 1984 ScienoSitter (2e+isp)
"Where don't they want you to go today?" - http://www.xenu.net
Steve A
Holmes) wrote:
> On Tue, 19 Jan 1999 05:17:25 GMT, sta...@ix.netcom.com (Stacy Brooks)
> wrote:
>
> >Don't let scientology drive a wedge between us. We should be working together.
>
> Where's your proof, Stacy Brooks?
>
> We want to see your proof, not your DAs.
Please, Deana, give it a rest...
roger gonnet
Tilman Hausherr wrote:
>
> In <36a58161...@enews.newsguy.com>, mir...@newsguy.com (Deana
> Marie Holmes) wrote:
>
> >Plus, I don't ever want you to communicate with me again in any way,
> >shape or form. Personally I think you're disgusting. I don't care
> >about you Dead Agenting *me*, but my God, to DA a person that none of
> >us have ever heard of...well, that's the height of meanness.
>
> Why should OSA send an undercover person everyone knows? Maybe people
> applying for the position of webmaster while still having their personal
> spam page?
>
> Get real!!! In Germany an undercover guy was exposed last year. His name
> had been removed from all official lists decades ago.
Though i cannot prove it, I think that some of those people can be still
on recent lists; the reason for this is logical: people become clams:
they write success letters; they are in the course's lists (can escape
to the possible vigilance of the OSA goons and Gold's cretins who have
to cross-check them for I/A - issue authority -, so we can have them
sometimes on lists where they could be suppressed.
Not certain, but a possibility!
roger
roger gonnet
Tilman Hausherr wrote:
>
> In <36a5f717...@enews.newsguy.com>, mir...@newsguy.com (Deana
> Marie Holmes) wrote:
>
> >Where's your evidence, you fucking sanctimonious bastard?
>
> A)
> What do you expect? That he taped the phone call where you allegely said
> "Bob, why don't you fund a position for me at FACTNet"?
>
> If this is true, it is really silly of you. Bob isn't the employment
> office for a.r.s. members.
>
> B)
> Now about this Laura Terepin - Bob/Stacy, please consider a setup by OSA
> in reverse, i.e. that they try to make it appear that she is a plant.
> (They did this with Michael Flynn - teling him that one of his clients
> was a plant, while actually plant(s) were working in his office)
>
> In germany, there is a critic who has already accused several people of
> being pseudo-ex-scientologists or OSA plants. Among them is even one guy
> who published an anti-scientology book.
I'd bet "they" could as well try this with me... not only they did not
sued me for now for the multiple crimes adocumented in the book, but as
well, they did not do many moves toward me till now. Fear of
consequences? Or preparing some DA pack? or trying to make me appear an
imbecile or an osa-friend! That would be so good !
roger
>
> The best if you think that someone is a plant is 1. make a setup, i.e.
> tell an information to the plant only and see the reaction, 2. if it is
> confirmed, profit from the plant by having it work. For example, in
> Clearwater the plants help to increase our picketing stats.
>
> C)
> I wish FACTNet would remove the Dorian and the Fable stuff - this is
> indeed not in character for an organisation that has the word FACT in
> it. Think about the second one - should it be called FABLENet ?
I dunno if it's needed as long as neither part is well documented; like
the veritas site: lack of pieces does not mean untrue.
roger
roger gonnet
"G. SCARFF" wrote:
>
> Keith wrote:
>
> > I want to beat you to the punch Arnie here is a list of OSA
> > spies:
> >
> > 1. Bob Minton
> > 2. Vaughn Young
> > 3. Grady Ward
> > 4. Steve Allen
> > 5. Stacy Brooks
> > 6. Cynthia Kisser
> > 7. Rick Ross
> > 8. Keith Henson
> > 9. Bill Clinton
> > 10. Oprah Winfrey
> >
> > I hired a PI to follow them and get there phone records and they have
> > been reporting into Mike Rinder weekly, submitting KR on all of you.
>
> You forgot Larry Flynt!
and Graham Berry! or adfi french president! etc...
;-))
roger
>
> >
> >
William Barwell
Boudewijn van Ingen <bo...@xs4all.nl> wrote:
>On Tue, 19 Jan 1999 06:29:05 GMT, bobm...@cultofscientology.net (Bob
>Minton) wrote:
>
>>>
>>>Where's your proof, Stacy Brooks?
>>>
>>>We want to see your proof, not your DAs.
>>>
>>
>
>So I guess it's "true for you", huh?
>
I am going to take it as a given that OSA ran an op through a PI.
They have done stuff like it before. And that they used info
to harrass Bob and Stacy. And that raised suspicians. And that
Bob hired a PI and the proof was dug up quickly enough.
It's not that hard. I take it as a given that Bob has good
hard evidence.
And that Terpin is the agent that wormed her way into Stacy's confidence.
I'll give Bob that.
I do hope that he sues. And I'd like to hear from him he is actively
pursuing something on this front. Which I have not.
Scientology keeps doing this. And escaping punishment.
That is why they do it. But the manner in which the inadequately
apparently have dealt with Cynthia Kisser in this leaves a bad taste
in my mouth.
I am more 'n a little POd' in fact about it.
And this leaves me wondering if FACTnet, Bob, Stacy et al
know what they are doing.
If I had been scammed like this, knowing Scientology's reputation
for trickery and fair gaming people ect., I'd be getting injunctions,
cease and desist orders and TROs against Scientology.
It's easy enough. Scientology gets them all the time against critics on
flimsy grounds.
I wonder then at the lack of such efforts.
And what else is going on and what else obvious is not being done.
Pope Charles
SubGenius Pope Of Houston
Slack!
William Barwell
Rob Clark <xe...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>On 19 Jan 1999 20:53:35 -0600, wbar...@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM (William Barwell)
>wrote:
>
*********************** DELETED *********************
>
>>If you all cannot handle THAT, and we know little more than
>>that this has not been competently dealt with, how can we trust
>>that you all will handle anything else competently?
>
>>Settle this please. And get TROs on the cult.
>
>>If Minton has time to post here about the Dorian crap, and he has, he has
>>time to call the PI and tell him it is OK to talk to Cynthia Kisser.
>>Cynthia asked for this and it was not done and your PI, quite properly
>>refused to talk to Cynthia when she called.
>
>>This is garbage.
>
>>Fix it. Now.
>
>i have to admit i'm getting skeptical. i am still doing my best to cut slack to
>this, but anyone not completely an idiot would resolve this situation, one way
>or the other, IMMEDIATELY.
>
>either this person is an OSA agent or she is not. either this person has phone
>records indicating phone calls to OSA or she doesn't.
>
>in either case, i get increasingly suspicious when people make increasingly
>elaborate claims, and at all steps UTTERLY REFUSE EVEN THE SLIGHTEST BIT OF
>ACTUAL GODDAMN FUCKING EVIDENCE!
We little net people are one thing, Cynthia Kisser and CAN are another.
The way this was handleed so far does give me pause as to the competence
of Factnet, Bob, Stacy et al. Actually reading how Cynthia waited for
that call, didn't get it, called the PI, only to find Bob had NOT
contacted him as requested, has ticked me off.
Things like this should NOT be.
And no more nonsense like this should occur.
Tommy
> It's gotten pretty conventional to call Hogan "a cock sucking whore".
> Ditto for Moxon. ARS seems to be remarkably non-sexist is it's use of
> the "whore" rank. ("xxxx is a whore of $cientology", "xxxx, whore of
> $cientology", etc. Sounds like a ranking somewhere below captain.)
Lieutenant-commandwhore?
(ducks quickly)
Tommy
--
"Ja, cobber! Tell them send us hoors! Tousands and tousands of hoors! I
marry them all, you betcha!!"
from 'The Moon is a harsh mistress' R.A.H.
Rebecca Hartong
Keith Henson wrote in message ...
>: >Bob has never had "Dorian's" address.
>
>: Hasn't Bob claimed that he's been to Dorian's mansion? That he's seen
the
>: windowless room with all the original Scientology manuscriptis? If he's
>: been there, how did he get there? Was he picked up at some location,
>: blindfolded, and driven there?
>
>Yes. This has been widely known for months. I think in postings.
I'm confused, then, about why you wrote "Bob has never had "Dorian's"
address." If he's been there--and had his eyes open the whole time--then it
ought to be a simple enough matter to go on back and make a note of the
street address. Wouldn't you think so?
Rebecca Hartong
Keith Henson wrote in message ...
>: Hasn't Bob claimed that he's been to Dorian's mansion? That he's seen
the
>: windowless room with all the original Scientology manuscriptis? If he's
>: been there, how did he get there? Was he picked up at some location,
>: blindfolded, and driven there?
>
>Yes. This has been widely known for months. I think in postings.
Ignore my last post if it makes it to your server, Keith. When I wrote it,
I didn't understand that you were confirming the part about being
blindfolded.
Thanks.
Rob Clark
>bo...@xs4all.nl (Boudewijn van Ingen) wrote:
>>On Tue, 19 Jan 1999 19:43:14 GMT, ishma...@yahoo.com (Ishmael)
>>wrote:
> ... snipt ...
>>>So unless you're a District Attorney within a jurisdiction pertinent
>>>to this matter don't hold your breath while waiting for Ms. Terepin's
>>>dossier.
>>Why did Bob publish these allegations, then?
>Bob's probably got his own map, but I imagine it might be fun to watch
>the vermin run for cover. IIRC, there were 12 other phones being
>billed to the $cientology PI's office. Wonder who's walking around
>with those other 12 phones?
>In a game of cards, is it good style to show all your cards to the
>table before making your play? Maybe just enough, just casually
>enough, to back your next play? Personally, I never show cards,
>relying instead on my smirk (self-absorbed, "swallowed a bumble bee",
>"hostess has her hands in my pants", or evil smirk, and some others,
>according to need) to drive things where I want 'em.
yeah, well, basically what minton has done is already blown a good portion of
his "hand" to the cult by talking about these cell phones in the first place.
the cult already *KNOWS* what cell phones they were using and i'd be surprised
if they don't just dump them all and start over.
the only people being kept in the dark here are US. cynthia kisser is being
denied information she needs for REAL, IMPORTANT reasons affecting the whole
anti-cult movement.
bob has just made his bet. now it's time to turn over the cards.
rob