bts2free on Marty Rathbun
Out_Of_The_Dark
movin' on up - Page 20 - Ex Scientologist Message Board
Feb 10, 2009, Today 04:36 PM
bts2free
I posted this over at Clambake and it should be posted here as well.
I've been watching this thread to see if any other info would surface
from Marty before making any comments.
First off, I think it's pretty damn rude that the first thing Marty
has to say in his first post is the fact that he'd like to "treat us"
with "Tech" to help get us out of the morass and obviously make some
money from it. What a douche.
For years, Marty's post at the base was to make sure that people
didn't blow or escape. He monitored everyone on the base through
Perimiter Council minutes, reports, MAAs and the Guards. Marty kept
people like Twin A and I over at OGH, literally imprisoned behind
cameras, razor wire topped fences and had us sec checked for hours and
hours every day to "find out our crimes" so we wouldn't blow. I spent
nearly a year and a half at OGH and restricted to the base all because
this Douche Bag along with DM ordered it to be that way for us.
Or hey Marty, how about you tell us how you actually manufactured
"crimes" about other Sea Org members that you reported to Dave that
resulted in innocent people getting humiliated at all-base briefings,
busted and sent to the decks for months on end. I know that for a fact
and it was confirmed to me buy other members who worked with you in
RTC.
What do you have to say about this Marty?
It is also true that RTC staff get paid a lot more than other Sea Org
members because RTC is a "corporation" and "not part of the CoS." I
know this because my wife was in RTC and I knew how much she was
getting paid.
RTC members are also instructed to not fraternize with members from
lower orgs or public. RTC staff were the biggest snobs and rudest
people I'd ever met except for maybe one or two I can think of. So it
makes sense that Marty would come out with this particular brand of
thinking and attitude towards us.
Marty, you worked for years with the upper dirty dogs. You know a lot
more than a lot of us know. You were one of the ones that just
happened to walk into the IRS office with Dave that fine day to give
Scientology its tax exempt status.
I think it's great that you're out of the Sea Org, but that doesn't
really mean anything until you take responsibility for the things you
did and do something about the shit you know about and were involved
in.
Maybe you need to go to the FBI and get immunity.
I was there when you were having Bruce Bromley held against his will
at the Int Ranch and YOU were the one running his program and coming
by to Sec Check him. I was there when he was physically restrained by
the guards there on a number of occasions because he just wanted to
leave. Remember, I was his "baby sitter" and lived with him for
several months. There are witnesses out here to things like THAT
Marty. How about you come clean before people like me and others start
airing your dirty laundry before you even have a chance to.
For starters, how about you start by telling us why you left the Sea
Org and what your intentions are before you start peddling any of your
services around here.
Cheers,
BTs2Free
http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=9794&page=20
This post says it all. Trying to be diplomatic about it is like
minimizing what the Nazis did to the Jews. There's no way around it
and being courteous about addressing him on it just minimizes all that
he seems to want to bypass. Thank you Marc & Claire Headley, for all
that you are doing to expose Scientology and the people who
represented the evil within it.
~ Mary McConnell
t_shuffle
"Out_Of_The_Dark" <formerl...@yahoo.com> wrote in
message
news:40e9e5c9-daa6-4e0a...@l16g2000yqo.googlegroups.com
Fuck him. I hope in ends up jail.
t_shuffle
"t_shuffle" <thorazin...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:7_2dnRJ_z8r63g_U...@giganews.com
Damn, I don't know what happened there. Let me rephrase that:
Fuck him. I hope he ends up in jail.
Quaoar
Ol' Marty wants to emulate the corrupted vesion of Claus von
Stauffenburg in Cruise's Valkyrie as the "good Nazi". Von Stauffenburg,
in real life, had no intention of disowning the Nazi party and their
excesses, but did have intention of taking out Hitler so that Germany
and the Nazi party had negotiating room with the Brits, Americans,
French, and Russians. He wanted to minimize the losses and preserve
Nazi Germany for the German Nazis.
Ol' Marty wants everyone to think that he is the "good Scientologist".
Frankly, if there were an opening on Davie's demise, Marty would be the
first in line to take over waving "Hey, ME!". Marty has the mindset
that every wog on the planet is Hubbard's wog on the planet and that SO
minions are SO minions. He has no intention of taking any action to
prevent his availability as Davie's successor.
Marty has no more conscience than does anyone else in the Exec Strata.
He should be waterboarded, imprisoned in Guantanamo, and treated like
any other terrorist until he confesses his crimes.
Q
barbaralov...@gmail.com
> On Feb 10, 8:48 pm, Out_Of_The_Dark <formerlyfoo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> movin' on up - Page 20 - Ex Scientologist Message Board
> Feb 10, 2009, Today 04:36 PM
What is good about the Headley's? They infiltrated Scientology, Marc
Headley is a liar, and they work for the German government. The
Headley's never should have been allowed on staff. Org ethics is
completely out when an impostor can take over somebody's identity for
years and nobody turns him over to the authorities and nobody looks to
help the real Marty who is somewhere wrongfully locked up.
This is not L. Ron Hubbard's Scientology. This is German
"Scientology".
But it happened even to L. Ron Hubbard. After L. Ron Hubbard was
murdered by doctors, Germany paid forgers to forge an affidavit, and
impostor Jack, posing as L. Ron Hubbard assigns "the tech" to DM as
the Germans thoughts they can control him as they want. The real Marty
and I were pushed out of Scientology while DM was promoted. Why?
Because we would not allow the Germans to alter Scientology and to
take over and create such situations as they exist now.
All troubles of Scientology will end when somebody finally publishes
the real story of L. Ron Hubbard and Scientology. It will also defeat
the psychs who have so much dirt and murder on their hands. That's
what I would do. The truth will set Scientology and this planet free.
THE TRUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH!
Scientologists could have it so much better if they would turn those
in who secretely control the orgs. There is still a way to recover any
original material that Ron wrote. There is still a way to get him
back. There is still a way to become real OTs. There is still a way to
stop illness, aging, and dying and new implants and destroyal of
thetans but if anybody protects his or her case officer and the fact
how German p$ychs controls anybody, they will have the same sad fate
as any non-Scientologists on Earth.
And when the Scientologists die and are born again (if they are lucky
and no psychs destroys the thetans who have no rights in the world
because no authority recognizes thetans and German p$ychs do what
they want with them), Scientology will be even more watered down and
changed, and a church like the Christian churches who do not set
anybody free.
I am no coward, I speak it out despite the psychiatric defamation
campaign that is run against one telling the truth. And according to
the Code of Honor, I do not fear for my immediately life either. I
rather never ever take a body again than ever again be tailed and
targeted by the competely perverted, mentally retarded, insane
monsters, the German psychs. I swear, I come after them and convict
them on anything they did to me or anybody else who has not deserved
it. I come after them dead or alive. I am sick and tired of their
inhumanities and how they destroy good people's lives with their
conspiracies and set ups and how they rule any corner of the world.
They are a lot more insane than their mental patients that they
"treat". I will forgive NOTHING, there will be no forgiving, and there
will be no mercy on butchers. They will be handled with most servere
justice in the universe. If they come away, if they are not punished
hard so that they learn the lesson of their entire existance, there
will be never peace in the universe. Never.
You don't understand any of this, right, Mary?
Anyway, the impostor of Mark Rathbun will not answer you
either.
He is the one who walked with DM to the IRS but he is not the original
Marty Rathbun. I wish he would use his own name or at least make one
up who doesn't belong to any instead of taking the original Marty
Rathbun's name. I really suffer under how Marty Rathbun's (the real
one) name is thrown in the mud and stomped on since the impostor
decided to post.
I am sure that the real Marty would never have paid the IRS any sum
because he knew that Scientology as written by L. Ron Hubbard is a
true religion and entitled to tax exemption. One can just shake one's
head. When Scientology was most religious when Ron was around, it got
no tax exemption. But when an impostor and DM who likely never met the
real L. Ron Hubbard walk in the IRS and throw some millions on the
table, they suddenly get the tax exemption.
Also, be reminded that pretty all Scientology money is in Europe to
make Europe and their leader Germany rich. That is why this tax deal
came through because the Germans don't want to pay US taxes and want
the Sea Org reserves close to them in Europe and not in the USA. The
German secret service determines who runs the show and they have the
control over all Sea Org money. Very convenient. The money was in
Luxembourg, which is a little German poodle, and I bet the money is
still in Europe. I know so because I once was on the Board of all SO
reserves.
Wanna bet that despite Scientology is tax exempted that the SO
reserves are still in Europe and not where they should be, in the
USA?
Understand me right, the religion Scientology deserves to be tax
exempted but not to pay for it and how the deal was handled and not to
make Europa and Germany richer.
Barbara Schwarz
barbaralov...@gmail.com
> Out_Of_The_Dark wrote:
> > movin' on up - Page 20 - Ex Scientologist Message Board
> > Feb 10, 2009, Today 04:36 PM
> > bts2free
I hate that you call the impostor Marty Rathbun. Give him another
name. He is not the original Marty.
To him happen to what happened to L. Ron Hubbard. Other's take his
personality and his name is smeared.
I am absolutely sure that I was right and that this impostor took
Marty's identity after Marty was wrongfully arrested.
Jason Beghe's friend is another person than the Marty who I know. The
real Marty disappeared by the end of 1988 and is still missing.
Barbara Schwarz
> Q- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Out_Of_The_Dark
> "t_shuffle" <thorazineshuf...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:7_2dnRJ_z8r63g_U...@giganews.com
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Out_Of_The_Dark" <formerlyfoo...@yahoo.com> wrote in
>
> - Show quoted text -
righteous Marty rathbun to step up to the plate and take
responsibility for his actions by talking, despite his most assured
gag agreement . We want him testifying to the gov't about all the
illegalities and harmful acts Miscaviage orchestrated against members
all over the world.
I have good reason to hate him for some things that were done to me
but hate does nothing to right wrongs. Jail is a last resort.
realpch
<snip>
> That is not what we (former members) want. We want a humble and
> righteous Marty rathbun to step up to the plate and take
> responsibility for his actions by talking, despite his most assured
> gag agreement . We want him testifying to the gov't about all the
> illegalities and harmful acts Miscaviage orchestrated against members
> all over the world.
>
> I have good reason to hate him for some things that were done to me
> but hate does nothing to right wrongs. Jail is a last resort.
As my older sister says, "It's good to want things."
People are so inconvenient. They insist upon being themselves. If you
want a good laugh, read "The Greatest Man in the World" by James Thurber.
Peach
--
Extra! Extra! Read All About It!
Save some dough, save some grief:
http://www.xenu.net
http://www.scientology-lies.com
t_shuffle
"Out_Of_The_Dark" <formerl...@yahoo.com> wrote in
message
news:c4737120-af52-4070...@k8g2000yqn.googlegroups.com
Don't get me wrong. I'd love nothing more than for him to remember a time
when he had a conscience and knew right from wrong. This man's testimony
could damn near destroy the cult and the cult's leadership.I just don't see
that happening. He's not sorry, and in fact he's still arrogant as hell.
anothers...@hotmail.com
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFGgbT_VasI
Keep on keepin' on...
Another Surfer
Eldon
> On Feb 10, 9:56 pm, Quaoar <qua...@marcabfleet.net> wrote:
>
> > Out_Of_The_Dark wrote:
> > > movin' on up - Page 20 - Ex Scientologist Message Board
> > > Feb 10, 2009, Today 04:36 PM
> > > bts2free
>
> I hate that you call the impostor Marty Rathbun. Give him another
> name. He is not the original Marty.
> To him happen to what happened to L. Ron Hubbard. Other's take his
> personality and his name is smeared.
>
> I am absolutely sure that I was right and that this impostor took
> Marty's identity after Marty was wrongfully arrested.
>
> Jason Beghe's friend is another person than the Marty who I know. The
> real Marty disappeared by the end of 1988 and is still missing.
That's more than 20 years ago, Barbara. I wasn't aware it was that
long. Have you considered the possibility that the real Marty dropped
his body in the meantime? Or do you "just know" telepathically that
he's still alive? If so, how do you know it's not your ear implants
telling you that?
Eldon
>
> This post says it all. Trying to be diplomatic about it is like
> minimizing what the Nazis did to the Jews. There's no way around it
> and being courteous about addressing him on it just minimizes all that
> he seems to want to bypass. Thank you Marc & Claire Headley, for all
> that you are doing to expose Scientology and the people who
> represented the evil within it.
> ~ Mary McConnell
Thank you for bringing it over here. I wasn't aware of all the details
of Rathbun's crimes for some reason. I knew about a lot of the nasty
stuff Rinder pulled because he was more in the public eye.
They both deserve to be brought to justice, and if they refuse to
disclose what they did while in Scientology, it should be done for
them.
Out_Of_The_Dark
>
> - Show quoted text -
^^^^
THIS
chuckbeatty77 @aol.com
that some ASI staff were rooting for OJ.
Marty talks about dichotomies. This human desire to survive, even
after having done illegal stuff, splits public opinion neatly, along
lines pro and con people's right to keep their skeletons to
themselves, and the public's demand for the truth and for fair
punishment for those that have done real harm and wrong in the world.
There's bitter public feelings for those that get away with
illegalities that are truly wrong.
It goes back from Marty to Hubbard, and to the damn Hubbard laid in
concrete ideas/rules like "Clean Hands Make a Happy Life" and the
"only honest people have rights" policy by Hubbard.
I wish Marty would write on THIS EXACT observation of John Peeler, and
further I urge Marty take up these Hubbard laid in concrete
policies: "Clean Hands Make a Happy Life" and "only honest people
have rights."
I urge Marty to write about those dicotomies, and on whether Marty and
Mike Rinder are just Scientology versions of OJ Simpson, the "Simpson
twins".
Eldon
wrote:
Chuck,
Marty and Mike got too far up the executive ladder in Scientology, and
became too corrupted, to be affected by any urge you might have. So
why are you telling them what you "urge" them to do? They are beyond
that.
To be more specific, they are a couple of evil motherfuckers, and you
probably would have been too had you advanced that far within the
organization. Lucky you, and unlucky them.
But it doesn't matter. ;-)
You'll feel better if you stop making it so fucking desperately
important. No shit. It isn't that important anyway at this point.
It's nearly over.
Zogmorton
suggest a couple of questions that you might put to him that would be
relatively non-confrontational (since, for better or worse, he's clearly
not ready to respond to the "what are your crimes?" line of questioning
that so many aggrieved ex-members are calling for). From my perspective
as a curious internet onlooker, never a scientologist, I think it would
be helpful to know his response to the following:
At the time of his departure, how many Sea Org members were there? How
many active church members worldwide?
He mentions "SP Hall" in one of his internet posts. Can he confirm it's
existence and briefly describe what goes on there?
And I'd suggest you ask permission to post his response.
realpch
Those are pretty sensible suggestions.
Out_Of_The_Dark
>
> This post says it all. Trying to be diplomatic about it is like
> minimizing what the Nazis did to the Jews. There's no way around it
> and being courteous about addressing him on it just minimizes all that
> he seems to want to bypass. Thank you Marc & Claire Headley, for all
> that you are doing to expose Scientology and the people who
> represented the evil within it.
> ~ Mary McConnell
oops, That was John Peeler who wrote that.
So Thank you John for all YOU are doing. This is an excellent letter.
Mary
barbaralov...@gmail.com
Thanks, sibling-like hugs will be accepted.
Barbara Schwarz
http://s633.photobucket.com/albums/uu59/BarbaralovesMartyyes/
barbaralov...@gmail.com
> On Feb 11, 5:46 am, barbaralovesmarty...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Feb 10, 9:56 pm, Quaoar <qua...@marcabfleet.net> wrote:
>
> > > Out_Of_The_Dark wrote:
> > > > movin' on up - Page 20 - Ex Scientologist Message Board
> > > > Feb 10, 2009, Today 04:36 PM
> > > > bts2free
>
> > I hate that you call the impostor Marty Rathbun. Give him another
> > name. He is not the original Marty.
> > To him happen to what happened to L. Ron Hubbard. Other's take his
> > personality and his name is smeared.
>
> > I am absolutely sure that I was right and that this impostor took
> > Marty's identity after Marty was wrongfully arrested.
>
> > Jason Beghe's friend is another person than the Marty who I know. The
> > real Marty disappeared by the end of 1988 and is still missing.
>
> That's more than 20 years ago, Barbara. I wasn't aware it was that
> long. Have you considered the possibility that the real Marty dropped
> his body in the meantime? Or do you "just know" telepathically that
> he's still alive? If so, how do you know it's not your ear implants
> telling you that?
You are older than 20, how come you are still alive?
You have the ear implants, Eldon, unlike you, I do not hear any
voices.
But yes, my OT perceptions tell me that he is alive and that will find
him.
You won't be invited when we renew our commitment.
Barbara Schwarz
http://s633.photobucket.com/albums/uu59/BarbaralovesMartyyes/
barbaralov...@gmail.com
wrote:
> In the early 1990s, when OJ's trial was just starting, I was astounded
> that some ASI staff were rooting for OJ.
The real Marty committed no crimes. You should always make clear that
you speak about his impostor.
And you should also confess your own crimes, Chuck. I know they are
ugly but when you don't confess them, they will eat you completely up
one day.
Barbara Schwarz
http://s633.photobucket.com/albums/uu59/BarbaralovesMartyyes/
barbaralov...@gmail.com
> Chuck,
He should be asked who put him up to impostor the original Marty and
how it came that Marty's real photo was published on the RTC website
and not his.
Barbara Schwarz
http://s633.photobucket.com/albums/uu59/BarbaralovesMartyyes/
Eldon
> Zogmorton wrote:
>
> > Chuck, since you have successfully corresponded with Mr. Rathbun, I will
> > suggest a couple of questions that you might put to him that would be
> > relatively non-confrontational (since, for better or worse, he's clearly
> > not ready to respond to the "what are your crimes?" line of questioning
> > that so many aggrieved ex-members are calling for). From my perspective
> > as a curious internet onlooker, never a scientologist, I think it would
> > be helpful to know his response to the following:
>
> > At the time of his departure, how many Sea Org members were there? How
> > many active church members worldwide?
>
> > He mentions "SP Hall" in one of his internet posts. Can he confirm it's
> > existence and briefly describe what goes on there?
>
> > And I'd suggest you ask permission to post his response.
>
> Those are pretty sensible suggestions.
Yes, they are. Just the facts sort of neutral stuff. I would also
suggest:
* What explanation was given to the troops when Mike Rinder left?
* Where was D.M. during the New Year's Eve event?
chuckbeatty77 @aol.com
>
> You'll feel better if you stop making it so fucking desperately
> important. No shit. It isn't that important anyway at this point.
>
"Comprehending Cults",LorneL.Dawson, Oxford Univ Press, 1998,
p31-32.
"...most of the cults studied in any depth during the recent
controversy about NRMs [New Religious Movements] are actually
atypical. Scienotlogy, Krishna Consciousness, and the Unification
Church, for example, are relatively long-lived and relatively large.
Accordingly, many of their features are rather sect-like. They are
more highly organized and are more ideologically and practically
sophisticated in their relations with the larger world. And except in
the case of the Unificiation Church, they have managed to survive the
death of their charismatic leader. Originally, though, each of these
groups displayed markedly the traits of a cult. Moreover, they
continue to display many cult-like attitutdes and practices, such as
the emphasis on esoteric teachings and the satisfaction of individual
needs. Perhaps, then, yet another category should be added to the
church-sect typology, that of 'established cult'."
http://www.arts.uwaterloo.ca/arts/ugrad/profiles_professors/dawson.html
Out_Of_The_Dark
wrote:
keep posting that and some where along the line, you might get
agreement, but the evidence is clear theat it's just a matter of time
before scientology folds.
chuckbeatty77 @aol.com
>
> It's nearly over
I doubt it.
Let's see who's right on that one.
Remember this exchange, in 2020, let's see who was right.
R. Hill
Yeah. That was more than 20 years ago, 1984:
"Scientology: A collapsing empire?"
http://www.xenu-directory.net/news/images/thecompiler-newspaper_jan-jun-84-4.pdf#page=8
After Snow White, at a time of landscape trials (Latey,
Armstrong/Breckenridge, and shortly thereafter, Wollersheim, then a few
years after, TIME in 1991, etc.)
However, nowadays, information travels in a very low-viscosity medium,
unforeseen by Hubbard: teh internet. Bad time for scams, but I wouldn't
dare saying "it's over." I wish to be proven wrong any time though.
--
Ray.
banchukita
> chuckbeatty77 @aol.com wrote:
> >> ....snip...
>
> >> It's nearly over
>
> > I doubt it.
>
> > Let's see who's right on that one.
>
> > Remember this exchange, in 2020, let's see who was right.
>
> Yeah. That was more than 20 years ago, 1984:
>
>
> After Snow White, at a time of landscape trials (Latey,
> Armstrong/Breckenridge, and shortly thereafter, Wollersheim, then a few
> years after, TIME in 1991, etc.)
>
> However, nowadays, information travels in a very low-viscosity medium,
> unforeseen by Hubbard: teh internet. Bad time for scams, but I wouldn't
> dare saying "it's over." I wish to be proven wrong any time though.
>
> --
> Ray.
I remember thinking it would be over soon in the mid 90s when they
raided Arnie, Dennis and Bob Penny's homes and took their computers
with federal marshals standing by. I thought, people will not stand
for this!
But they did. Social change is a tortoise.
-maggie, human being
Android Cat
> On Feb 13, 11:51 pm, "R. Hill" <rh...@xenu-directory.net> wrote:
>> chuckbeatty77 @aol.com wrote:
>>>> ....snip...
>>
>>>> It's nearly over
>>
>>> I doubt it.
>>
>>> Let's see who's right on that one.
>>
>>> Remember this exchange, in 2020, let's see who was right.
>>
>> Yeah. That was more than 20 years ago, 1984:
>>
>> "Scientology: A collapsing
>> empire?"http://www.xenu-directory.net/news/images/thecompiler-newspaper_jan-j...
>>
>> After Snow White, at a time of landscape trials (Latey,
>> Armstrong/Breckenridge, and shortly thereafter, Wollersheim, then a
>> few
>> years after, TIME in 1991, etc.)
>>
>> However, nowadays, information travels in a very low-viscosity
>> medium,
>> unforeseen by Hubbard: teh internet. Bad time for scams, but I
>> wouldn't
>> dare saying "it's over." I wish to be proven wrong any time though.
>
> raided Arnie, Dennis and Bob Penny's homes and took their computers
> with federal marshals standing by. I thought, people will not stand
> for this!
>
> But they did. Social change is a tortoise.
Oh, but that was so long ago, ancient history, they don't do that any more,
and the people responsible for those raids have been kicked out of the
organization... ;-P
(I love how Scientology claims that the people purged in the 80s were due to
Snow White and not Davey's power-grab over Hubbard's dead body.)
--
Ron of that ilk.
Eldon
> chuckbeatty77 @aol.com wrote:
> >> ....snip...
>
> >> It's nearly over
>
> > I doubt it.
>
> > Let's see who's right on that one.
>
> > Remember this exchange, in 2020, let's see who was right.
>
> Yeah. That was more than 20 years ago, 1984:
>
>
> After Snow White, at a time of landscape trials (Latey,
> Armstrong/Breckenridge, and shortly thereafter, Wollersheim,
1984 was indeed a scary year for DM's Scientology, what with Mayo (the
former tech heir) setting up shop in Santa Barbara backed with
adequate financing, and Hubbo deteriorating in his hideout.
then a few
> years after, TIME in 1991, etc.)
And don't forget the major IRS victory in 1993, which was 15 years
ago. But it's pretty much been all downhill since then.
The Internet War started in 1994, and what has Scientology done since
then except shrink in population, and build, buy and renovate a bunch
of "landmark" buildings at way inflated prices?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I tend to think they've lost 25-35% of
the money they invested in those properties over the past year, and
they still have to finish the Super Power building and that decrepit
campus in San Diego if they even want to occupy them.
Call me a bloomin' optimist, but I cannot buy Chuck's proposiition
that there's an endless supply of Scientology kids who will happily
join the Sea Org or org staff, and figure out how to keep the cult
going. Hell, Sea Org members aren't even allowed to have kids, so you
can forget about their progeny restocking the labor pool.
Or are we talking about kids of public Scienos like Kendra? Oh, BTW,
has DM declared her parents Suppressive for attending her wedding? Do
you think they'll talk her into joining staff? LOL.
Just look at how long Rinder, Rathbun and other escapees were in as
True Believers. A few months of reading LRH policy isn't going to
enable some kids to replace them, even if the kids can be recruited.
My theory is that it doesn't depend on the public Scieno members, or
how famous or rich they are. It depends on having enough staff members
just to handle day-to-day operations with a modicum of efficiency and
credibility. As in paying the electricity bills, renewing the URL
registrations and washing the windows.
I can't wait to see David Miscavige sitting out there on the sidewalk
manning a stress test table one of these days, simply because there's
nobody left to do it.
Monica Pignotti
Well, Mary, Marty is not here to do your bidding or fall into lockstep
with your agenda or the agenda of the "we" you presume to speak for.
You are alleging illegalities but as of yet, there is not enough
evidence to convict anyone and you have no evidence that Marty has
such evidence. It is all based on assumptions. If you or anyone else
has actual evidence that would hold up in a court of law, then and
only then can you have him tried, convicted, and thrown in jail.
However, in this country people are presumed innocent until shown to
be guilty. You stayed in Scientology for many years yourself. Are your
own hands clean? That was a rhetorical question -- I don't expect you
to answer that, but I do have difficulty believing you are a complete
victim in all this.
Monica Pignotti
I predict you will be shown to be right on this, Chuck. People have
been saying "it's nearly over" for years so I wouldn't hold my breath.
Eldon
Hey Monica, since both you and Chuck both seem bent on perpetuating
Scientology, why don't you volunteer to take over Marty Rathbun's
vacant position? That job might suit you just fine.
Mark Thorson
The Edgar Cayce cult continues to sputter on,
64 years after the death of their prophet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgar_Cayce
It's hard to see Hubbard's creation ever
disappearing completely.
barbaral...@gmail.com
> "chuckbeatty77 @aol.com" wrote:
L. Ron Hubbard's Scientology will stay, p$ychiatry, the cult in white
will go because when people find out what they secretly did and do,
Earth population will be so mad about them that will not find a dirt
hole anymore to hide in.
Barbara Schwarz
chuckbeatty77 @aol.com
> Hey Monica, since both you and Chuck both seem bent on perpetuating
> Scientology,
You're so smart on other things, why don't you see that all I'm doing
is re-educating myself, and agreeing with the most realistic of long
term cult/new religon observers, who likewise see these movements has
having unfortunately long dreary slowly descending lives.
I only think the worst should cease immediately, and that longer range
the cult falls apart, splinters, just like new religious movement and
religion historians note over time that religions ebb and flow,
splinter, new denonminations build up.
I'm also starting to read Scott Atran's "In Gods We Trust" 2002 Oxford
Univ Press, and coming to grips with the fact that religions are
pretty much a very slowly descending part of human life, that are so
complex they just are not falling completely out of use.
I think Scientology is trying to be people's "religion" and even if it
is a foul foul joke substitute of real religion, the Scientologists
who claim they are a religion have convinced themself of that.
I don't support a bit of Scientology nor the freezone. It's fraud
unregulated mental therapy.
I'm an extreme atheist, I believe in materialism in the extreme. All
is matter and nothingness spots.
But scholars do think this religion business is here and not going
away anytime soon.
Thus, I wish to get ex members at least exposing the crap that goes on
in Scientology while Scientology slowly descends into its splintering
phase.
To splinter Scientology will take focus on the worst aspects of it,
and also I have to read up on how similar groups have splintered in
history.
Hey Eldon, why don't you read up on how new religious movements and
similar cult groups to Scientology have in the past splintered and
collapsed.
Why doesn't someone of the smart people here on ARS do some research
into what books are on the subject of how new religious movements/
mystical cult like fraud groups actually splinter and disintegrate,
and find out what are Scientology's similar weaknesses.
I'm in the ex members camp, and support all ex members exposing the
harmful parts of the movement, to bring at least an end to the most
foul aspects of Hubbard's Scientology.
That at least is something.
How to bigger splinter them back to just groups of new age seekers who
buy all manner of "alternative" crap theory, I support whatever
realistic path leads there.
You are completely wrong thinking I support Scientology or freezone
which is the same Hubbard fantasy belief in Hubbard's therapy
processing procedures.
I sympathize with all the brainwashed victims of Hubbard's fraud con
religious spiritual therapy Scientology and it's "body thetan"
exorcism practice, which Hubbard truly believed and Hubbard absolutely
believed that Xenu murdered zillions of aliens and those alien souls
float still everywhere today, and for that alone, I cannot EVER
support Scientology or Hubbard, for that fantastic fantasy fraud sold
as a spiritual new religion.
Hubbard was clearly a charlatan con artist just like Russell Miller
said in his all time excellent book, "Bare-Faced Messiah". Hubbard
charmed and exploited people's support.
I don't support any new age crap fraud practices, I am a subscriber to
the Skeptics Magazine, and I'm a hardcore atheist materialist.
Chuck Beatty
chuckbeatty77 @aol.com
> ... snip
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I tend to think they've lost 25-35% of
> the money they invested in those properties over the past year, and
> they still have to finish the Super Power building and that decrepit
> campus in San Diego if they even want to occupy them.
>
> Call me a bloomin' optimist, but I cannot buy Chuck's proposiition
> that there's an endless supply of Scientology kids who will happily
> join the Sea Org or org staff, and figure out how to keep the cult
> going. Hell, Sea Org members aren't even allowed to have kids, so you
> can forget about their progeny restocking the labor pool.
You're correct, they are declining, staff numbers are declining left
right and center.
In another post I mentioned Kitchener Org, because Kitchener is
unmanned with NO ONE holding any posts, and it is still kept on the
books as a Canadian Org.
The other post about Toronto, shows how pitifully they will let an org
collapse.
This has gone on, for decades, in Canada, in Africa, in the UK, in
fact this is standard practice.
They cannot keep ANY of these orgs booming.
Orgs have been mainly almost always on steady downtrending patterns
all through their history.
They are experts and propping things up, for show, and they lure
enough people in, they pay the staff nothing in effect, and staff
eventually quit, return to parishioner status, hooked by the
freeloader fraud grip of them, there are numerous complex sociological
psychological reasons why Hubbard's crap setup works to keep things
barely scraping along, and that is what Hubbard perfected.
This scraping along bare minimum fraud con new religion, that feeds
itself with gullible people.
Hubbard's forte is hype, his writings are hype fantasy.
Enough people are lured along.
I've seen it, I lived it, from 1975 until 2003, upclose, I ate the
damn food, I slept in the RPF dorms in PAC (LA complex). I watched
as us slave RPFers reno'd endlessly this or that office or building,
ALWAYS having the scraped up money coming in.
I think you need to talk without the prejudices of doom doom doom for
them, they simply have mastered the art of deceiving their followers,
Hubbard has, and Hubbard believed this crap Xenu body thetans stuff,
and he's sold them all on it, and sold them on all their rules that
keep them scraping along.
They have mastered exploiting themselves in their brainwashed
mindsets.
Roy Wallis pointed out Hubbard's Sea Org setup is a perfect model of
the most efficient heartless bureaucracy, and that observation I agree
with.
Hubbard's heartless system I target is why they are carrying on, it is
their "strength" even as this bureaucracy always roots out
disaffection, dishes out injustices which eventually the staff cannot
withstand and staff quit.
Hubbard's got rules for replacing staff who eject. There are
priorities of replacing this or that post. Lots of posts are left
vacant.
The recent HGB defectors said more and more posts are vacant, and even
OSA was way way less than they used to be.
I think smart Scientology observers like you, if you have the time,
you should ask detailed questions of the most recent defectors, and
build up the realistic figures from their memories, and fill in the
details.
You and a few others seem capable of grasping so many intricacies of
life, I wish you would take the time to interview in depth some of the
recent defectors, and build up the real raw scene.
I think then, your smarts would end up with the BEST current views.
But you and the smarter ARS Scientology observers need to make
yourselves contactable, and I'll glady encourage the people to talk
with you, backchannel, publicly, however you want.
But you smart ARS people need to goddamn talk and get the real
details, and please goddamn don't back off from getting the details
when the dull details start to disprove your own pet ideas of how
things are NOT gonna result in some dramatic collapse. Hubbard's been
there done that on reviving dead organizations he's brainchilded.
He's written policy saying never close a Class 5 org, and they only
got around that order with technicalities, like they combined some
orgs and said that some orgs were not really orgs to begin with, to
try to pretend they were complying with Hubbard's rule on never
closing an org. They will let orgs be tiny for decades, they let
bigger orgs collapse, and then will rebuild them slowly, let them
collapse, rebuild them, collapse, rebuild.
That's Hubbard's realistic scraping policy. It's a decades long
dreary story of big hopes, some show peaks and spikes of statistics,
then collapse, since there is just no public support out there for
Scientology.
They spruce up their buildings, the public don't come, and they switch
out executives, and the freeloader rules, the ethics rules, the family
disconnection rules, keep the communities under the gun, and
connected, and they exploit each other, bilk their failed staff for
money for services, once they bilk them for their freeloader debts,
and this whole dismal operation goes on and on.
I again, think it is the rules.
They have spikes, then collapses, then more spikes.
I posted on Clambake asking for recent Central Files Clerk defectors,
since a Central Files clerk will have seen ALL of the new people who
bought services, since the CF Clerk's job is to file copies of the
invoices in CF files.
We need some long term CF clerks to defect and be interviewed
knowledgably.
If we had access to a church's CF files ourselves, and to the
statistics of the orgs an conts around the world, we could see what is
actually going on, where the money comes from, like which types of
parishioners.
You are right, we don't have the stats.
We have just the impressions of the defectors, and I give those
managerial defectors the best weight for giving us the true scene.
I'm just beginning to read cult expert books.
I subscribe to the "Cultic Studies Review" ICSA's journal and I'm a
member of them.
I support however we can do peer reviewable cult research of the
Scientology operation.
Chuck Beatty
Eldon
wrote:
> >...snip...
> > Hey Monica, since both you and Chuck both seem bent on perpetuating
> > Scientology,
>
> You're so smart on other things, why don't you see that all I'm doing
> is re-educating myself, and agreeing with the most realistic of long
> term cult/new religon observers, who likewise see these movements has
> having unfortunately long dreary slowly descending lives.
>
> I only think the worst should cease immediately,
There is one point where we differ, Chuck. I think the worst should
become so nefarious that a significant political rebellion results, or
perhaps some frustrated SO member or parishioner like Mario offs David
MIscavige. He is the ONLY person holding Scientology together these
days, using spit and chewing gum or whatever, and I don't think he do
it for much longer.
Without him, Scientology will be like the Nazi movement post Hitler.
Or maybe I should discuss Rajneesh? Do read all about that movement
and tell me how it's doing today. Yes, a small Ashram in India or
whatever remains, sort of like the neo-Nazi movement in the western
world today.
BTW, those were "established" cults. Weren't they?
> and that longer range
> the cult falls apart, splinters, just like new religious movement and
> religion historians note over time that religions ebb and flow,
> splinter, new denonminations build up.
>
> I'm also starting to read Scott Atran's "In Gods We Trust" 2002 Oxford
> Univ Press, and coming to grips with the fact that religions are
> pretty much a very slowly descending part of human life, that are so
> complex they just are not falling completely out of use.
>
> I think Scientology is trying to be people's "religion" and even if it
> is a foul foul joke substitute of real religion, the Scientologists
> who claim they are a religion have convinced themself of that.
>
> I don't support a bit of Scientology nor the freezone. It's fraud
> unregulated mental therapy.
Actually, I support certain aspects of the Freezone. When half the
Amsterdam org walked out several years ago causing a major emergency
for the SO, I cheered. Not only did the happy parishioners rebel and
set up their own thing, but the "handlers" who were shipped in were
totally confused as to what they should do.
I think most of the Freezone automatically reverts back to decency in
time. The Mission people prior to the big Miscavige takeover of 1982
tended to be pretty positive and decent overall, despite Hubbard's
toxicity. They bought into the good stuff and sort of blanked out the
bad stuff. They had their own network communications, and most of them
hated the Sea Org.
>
> I'm an extreme atheist, I believe in materialism in the extreme. All
> is matter and nothingness spots.
Maybe Ayn Rand will be your next guru? Just being sarcastic here, of
course.
>
> But scholars do think this religion business is here and not going
> away anytime soon.
You are a bit reactionary if you put all or even most of your trust in
scholars -- at least parasites like J.G. Melton, for example. They
mainly try to impress other scholars. Literary figures and film makers
probably have more clout these days.
>
> Thus, I wish to get ex members at least exposing the crap that goes on
> in Scientology while Scientology slowly descends into its splintering
> phase.
>
> To splinter Scientology will take focus on the worst aspects of it,
> and also I have to read up on how similar groups have splintered in
> history.
As I said, check out how Rajneesh's empire disintegrated.
The death of Muktenanda also triggered an interesting power play
between Guru Mai and her brother, who went and established a schism
group in upstate New York, much as David Mayo did in Santa Barbara.
Now, that Freezone event was the scariest time ever for Scientology.
David Mayo was a true believer and an experimental researcher who
believed he had "saved" Hubbard by figuring out a new twist on the
body thetan mythology.
>
> Hey Eldon, why don't you read up on how new religious movements and
> similar cult groups to Scientology have in the past splintered and
> collapsed.
What makes you think I haven't?
>
> Why doesn't someone of the smart people here on ARS do some research
> into what books are on the subject of how new religious movements/
> mystical cult like fraud groups actually splinter and disintegrate,
> and find out what are Scientology's similar weaknesses.
>
> I'm in the ex members camp, and support all ex members exposing the
> harmful parts of the movement, to bring at least an end to the most
> foul aspects of Hubbard's Scientology.
>
> That at least is something.
>
> How to bigger splinter them back to just groups of new age seekers who
> buy all manner of "alternative" crap theory, I support whatever
> realistic path leads there.
>
> You are completely wrong thinking I support Scientology or freezone
> which is the same Hubbard fantasy belief in Hubbard's therapy
> processing procedures.
Well, I'm glad I at least pissed you off about that. At this point,
it's probably good for you. But in fact, I think the Freezone can play
at least a transitional role in sucking the life blood out of official
Scientology. ;-)
>
> I sympathize with all the brainwashed victims of Hubbard's fraud con
> religious spiritual therapy Scientology and it's "body thetan"
> exorcism practice, which Hubbard truly believed and Hubbard absolutely
> believed that Xenu murdered zillions of aliens and those alien souls
> float still everywhere today, and for that alone, I cannot EVER
> support Scientology or Hubbard, for that fantastic fantasy fraud sold
> as a spiritual new religion.
Well, I think you are taking the whole shebang a bit seriously at this
point, but maybe you will lighten up within a few years and find some
sense of retrospective humor in what you endured. Jeff Hawkins has as
one example.
>
> Hubbard was clearly a charlatan con artist just like Russell Miller
> said in his all time excellent book, "Bare-Faced Messiah". Hubbard
> charmed and exploited people's support.
Yeah, and so was Christian Merkert or whatever his name was. I refer
to the kraut fraudster who bamboozled the Buffalo org, and then placed
himself under the protection of Ursula Caberta and yourself.
When that sleazeebag said he had a book ready to sell in German and
English, I "innocently" said I would help out with a final edit on the
English version and enlisted Beth to say she would help. After which
he simply disappeared because there was no book. I just corresponded
with someone who ordered a copy, paid for it and didn't receive zip.
>
> I don't support any new age crap fraud practices, I am a subscriber to
> the Skeptics Magazine, and I'm a hardcore atheist materialist.
Well Chuck, if you lightened up a bit, you might notice that such
venerable schools of thought as meditation and psychotherapy can
easily be relegated to the category of new age crap fraud practices,
because they aren't hard science. However, that doesn't mean there is
something inherently wrong with them.
chuckbeatty77 @aol.com
> become so nefarious that a significant political rebellion results, or
> perhaps some frustrated SO member or parishioner like Mario offs David
> MIscavige.
Better to do all legal procedures against cult leaders. I think it is
irresponsible and wrong to publicly state one's hope for members of a
cult to murder their cult leader in frustration or martyrdom, that
kind of talk can be taken as real suggestion by unbalanced ex cult
members who might think there is support for that.
I wouldn’t go there, it might foment a premeditated felony.
I think discussing the moments when cult leadership of Scientology
almost ended in a fatal scenario, namely had Miscavige NOT softened
and relented to Jesse Prince's challenge against Miscavige's goons and
Miscavige that day at the Int Base when Jesse holding two loaded
weapons stood off against Miscavige and Miscavige's goons, discussing
that moment, publicly, is okay.
But NOT suggest it as even a joking wish, or even get into a dialogue
any further on that.
What I find alarming about you, is you say such sane wise things,
intersperse with totally irrational joking comments.
I loved Dennis Erlich’s old Tubbo joking, and plenty of other joking,
but I’m not good at it myself.
>...He [Miscavige] is the ONLY person holding Scientology together these
> days, using spit and chewing gum or whatever, and I don't think he do
> it for much longer.
>
> Without him, Scientology will be like the Nazi movement post Hitler.
I differ. Leaders under Hubbard were a dime a dozen. Had Hubbard
lived longer, ALL persons who were in the top ranks would wager
Miscavige would NOT have survived as top leader bureaucrat.
Miscavige has won the after the fact race to lead the movement.
Miscavige barely escaped being knocked off the top spot while Hubbard
was alive.
There was a slow disintegration of the Exec Strata and WDC the last 25
years.
Hubbard's final 1980s years of orders and policies left power in the
top two managerial bodies, Exec Strata and WDC (with CMO Int as WDC’s
execution arm).
Hubbard's final writings for those two bodies, included policies on
coordinating committees.
Hubbard envisioned those two bodies interacting, and during the 80s
there were routine daily and weekly major committee meetings mixed
with Exec Strata and WDC/CMO Int top management people, coordinating
the big strategic plans., micromanaging up the ying yang.
That is still how the movement was supposed to be top managed.
Miscavige has over the last 20 years slowly broken down that Hubbard
managerial setup.
Little Bear Victor and others have said that new Exec Strata and WDC
members are slated to someday go up and assume their positions, and
that’s been the plan for years, it’s stalled, like all strategic stuff
is stalled, best explained in Jeff Hawkins’ writings.
But even though it is stalled, that is what is supposed to happen, and
when Miscavige ever departs the top dominating tyrant role, those two
bodies, WDC and Exec Strata will reform. That is Hubbard’s managerial
top marching orders, waiting for them to someday re-execute.
I get blamed for supporting the mess, I’m only trying to explain their
Hubbard marching orders for the top echelon.
Why do I even say all this, because there’s no one out here who gets
it.
Only have I found ONE person who gets this.
Roy Wallis got it, and wrote this, in 1976, based on what he’d
researched up to then of Hubbard’s intense bureaucracy policies.
Why am I so serious? Because no one even gets this.
The movement runs on an intense bureaucratic setup, Hubbard’s
managerial writings tell them what to do, whenever they have no one
preemptively telling them to do something else, like Miscavige is
doing.
Minus Miscavige cross ordering them to not do Hubbard’s managerial
policies, they will revert to Hubbard’s managerial policies.
That is the Hubbard setup.
The Hubbard setup is what they will fall back to read and follow, when
DM finally departs the stage.
tI have been working to put this reality out here, and get some of the
former members who can even think with what Hubbard wrote, to defend
my views, and my goddamn views are all just restating the Hubbard
writings.
Fine to have a sense of humor about it, and that’s the EP of being an
advanced dupe, and sure maybe I haven’t had that EP yet, but I’m stuck
on what Wallis and other sociologists say about cults.
This cult, this Scientology/Hubbard mess is strong on auto-pilot
internal staff managerial rules and regulations that tell them what to
do in all cases, so much so, they are told NOT to do anything else.
Most ex WDC and ex Exec Strata members failed to even get what Hubbard
was telling them, they themselves were unfortunately NOT even able to
keep their heads above all the day to day maulings and jockeying that
goes on to even grasp their role in running the movement.
They’ve all been busted and blown and bashed around, and the top
management of the movement has been shot to shreds the last two
decades, I think partly due to Scientology/Hubbard’s goals being
utterly unobtainable, and ultimate it goes back to Hubbard’s
completely unrealistic goals for the movement, but also due to the
henchman scapegoatism that Hubbard put into the rules, the “Eval Tech”
is always about finding a “WHY” and a “WHO” and the “Who’s” are the
scapegoats, and that’s how one by one the Exec Strata and WDC/CMO Int
execs one by one are scapegoat ed.
I think it’s a Hubbard mental defection manifested in his movement, he
destroys anything that is incapable of fulfilling his unrealistic
fantasies.
Miscavige is just playing Hubbard.
I think whoever is next, will just morph into a Miscavige like role,
not that they like Miscavige, but because Hubbard’s managerial rules
direct the top leader to always order and execute the “eval tech” to
find a “WHO” and scapegoat that person, when things go wrong.
The point is when Miscavige is gone, the leftover people will return
to what Hubbard wrote.
Re-establish Exec Strata and WDC, and get into mauling each other,
when things go wrong, and they go wrong because the world does NOT
want Scientology, and new variations of Miscavige like leaders will
rise up to the unscapgoatable top dog position and play mini Hubbard.
But this process, they won’t see they are stuck in this never ending
“game” of aspiring towards Hubbard’s managerial policy solutions (that
only create the repeating mauling scapegoat making of each other).
They will re-invent similar patterned messes over and over following
Hubbard's blueprint policies.
That is what they will do.
That's what will happen.
I don't support it, all I'm doing sharing the reality on the ground,
over my 27 years in the mess.
Hubbard even has a Basic Staff Hat OEC Volume 0 policy, that says
"when you don't know what to do" then "do what LRH would do". And
other Vol 0 policy about doing what "Ron Says!"
Scientology is a "Do what Ron Says" organization.
Right now, it's been warped into a "Do what Miscavige Says"
organization.
The writings are Hubbard's. The basic books are NOT Miscavige
bastardizations, they are glorified typo refined Hubbard ideas. NOT
Miscavigeisms!
Tyrants will warp the movement, but the movement will not collapse.
Once the tyrant jerk bastard Miscavige is gone, those left standing,
like Starkey, Wilhere, Yager, Leserve, if they hang in there and
outlive Miscavige, or Miscavige goes to jail, or, or or, however
Miscavige leaves the scene first, THEN, my guess is Yager will emerge
the top leader.
Yager's been pretty brutal in years past, but no where as bad as
Miscavige.
When Miscavige is gone, Scientology will get all enthusiastic again,
when the totalitarian crap DM is doing comes off of them.
I stand by these opinions.
I don't support this movement, I think all that is foul and wrong
exposed and cease.
I don't support your irrational hatred.
I don't support Scientology, all I'm saying is they will follow
Hubbard's blueprints for their future.
> Or maybe I should discuss Rajneesh? Do read all about that movement
> and tell me how it's doing today. Yes, a small Ashram in India or
> whatever remains, sort of like the neo-Nazi movement in the western
> world today.
>
I'll check into this, it'll be a while for me to get into them
properly. Thanks.
> BTW, those were "established" cults. Weren't they?
>
>
Dawson does not include any others, only 3 as "established
cults" : Moonies, Hare Krishnas and Scientology. If those guys you
mentioned were Hare Krishnas, then Dawson was wrong on the Hare
Krishnas then, if they are the same ones you are saying splintered
already.
>.... snip....
>
> Actually, I support certain aspects of the Freezone. When half the
> Amsterdam org walked out several years ago causing a major emergency
> for the SO, I cheered. Not only did the happy parishioners rebel and
> set up their own thing, but the "handlers" who were shipped in were
> totally confused as to what they should do.
>
> I think most of the Freezone automatically reverts back to decency in
> time. The Mission people prior to the big Miscavige takeover of 1982
> tended to be pretty positive and decent overall, despite Hubbard's
> toxicity. They bought into the good stuff and sort of blanked out the
> bad stuff. They had their own network communications, and most of them
> hated the Sea Org.
>
I used to think this also. But then, I have to admit that even the
freezone is unpeer reviewed therapy. They are back to where Hubbard
was in Dianetics. They should be trained at university so as to
become scientific.
And I read a great viewpoint on Wikipedia, that I think sorted out a
lot for me.
It's the article on the lady named Marcia Angell, Harvard lecturer,
former Editor in Chief of the New England Journal of Medicine, and her
view is there should only be one medicine.
Not "alternative" medicine.
But just one group of practitioners all working scientifically on the
best treatments.
That interested me, see her Wikipedia article.
Same I think with mental therapy. There should be legitimate
concensus amongst sane rational scientifically minded therapists.
When therapy turns into religious unchallengable dogma, Hubbard's
whole goddamn outlook, it's Hubbard Hubbard Hubbard, only Hubbard's
views are supreme, all others are hurtful and wrong and ruinous for
mankind's future.
I see NOTHING good in Hubbard's gooey mess, not even a scrap of it.
Better to avoid it all, freezone as well.
Rather let someone reinvent the same principles completely outside of
any Hubbard influence.
>
> > I'm an extreme atheist, I believe in materialism in the extreme. All
> > is matter and nothingness spots.
>
> Maybe Ayn Rand will be your next guru? Just being sarcastic here, of
> course.
>
>
No more gurus for me. Screw them all, and all new age crap.
I like John Searle, Steven Pinker, Scott Atran, Richard Dawkins, Sam
Harris, Marcia Angell, and I have gotten used to the fact that people
who are smart don't go overboard on themselves, and those that do,
that's a bad point.
Richard Feynman.
I like the guy who discovered fractals.
I am reading a bit of the physicists, Sean Carroll and his blog
interests me.
http://thesciencenetwork.org/programs/beyond-belief-enlightenment-2-0/sean-carroll
But no gurus, no enlightenment crap.
>
> > But scholars do think this religion business is here and not going
> > away anytime soon.
>
> You are a bit reactionary if you put all or even most of your trust in
> scholars -- at least parasites like J.G. Melton, for example. They
> mainly try to impress other scholars. Literary figures and film makers
> probably have more clout these days.
>
>
I put no trust in any of our existing scholars. Remember, I urge ex
members to write their raw info, for the future scholars that come
along, long after we're all dead!
Roy Wallis is dead, and no scholar has attempted an update of Wallis'
type of more indepth interviewing like Wallis did.
I think Scientology will slither on and on, despite the bad boy and
bad girl personalities that play king of the mountain games inside the
existing Hubbard official Scientology mess.
What I said above, is what I think will be what is discovered, once
someone does trudge through all the Hubbard "techs" and sees how those
techs are all flawed but keep the members locked down and dumb and
limited, and chewing each other up, and never faulting Hubbard, and
Hubbard gives them false hope, and they fall for it, since only
gullible types get suckered in the door in the first place.
I'l admit, if they downsize too much, so as to forget what's printed
in their Hubbard managerial books, but I don't think Miscavige is
removing Hubbard's managerial writings from their usage.
The Hubbard books are out there, even though the managerial books need
another recall due to massive typos in the 1991 editions.
There are so many interconnecting issues, I think what I don't see on
ARS, nor in current scholarship, is how interconnecting all of
Hubbard's prolific cult writings make this operation slumber along.
Despite ANY of the characters.
Wallis saw this, in the "substitutibility" factor that is given a HIGH
score by Wallis, due to Hubbard's near perfect bureaucracy setup that
keep the members fighting the Hubbard cause to their own detriment
(thinking the "Eval Tech" is so wonderful, when it essentially turns
the Evaluator into a mini Hubbard, authorizing scapegoating).
>.... snip...
> As I said, check out how Rajneesh's empire disintegrated.
>
He is NOT in the "established cult" group. Only the Moonies, Hare
Krishna and Scientology are ian the "established cult" category. Your
guy above is the fly by night cult.
Here's what Wikipedia says about Hare Krishna people or ISKON:
"ISKCON today is a worldwide confederation of more than 400 centres,
including 60 farm communities some aiming for self-sufficiency, 50
schools and 90 restaurants. In recent decades the movement's most
rapid expansions in terms of numbers of membership have been within
Eastern Europe (especially, since the collapse of the USSR) and
India..."
ISKCON is a big cut above your small time cult guru flakes.
> The death of Muktenanda also triggered an interesting power play
> between Guru Mai and her brother, who went and established a schism
> group in upstate New York, much as David Mayo did in Santa Barbara.
>
> Now, that Freezone event was the scariest time ever for Scientology.
> David Mayo was a true believer and an experimental researcher who
> believed he had "saved" Hubbard by figuring out a new twist on the
> body thetan mythology.
>
>
I don't know what direction they would go, I guess Mayo was a secular,
not a religious group.
I just can't agree with unpeer reviewable anyone, Mayo turned
Hubbardism back to sort of new age alternative therapy, is all.
I don't support that now myself.
>
> > Hey Eldon, why don't you read up on how new religious movements and
> > similar cult groups to Scientology have in the past splintered and
> > collapsed.
>
> What makes you think I haven't?
>
>
You never quote Wallis. Read Roy Wallis, he's the best scholar to
take on Scientology.
And no one, except Kent, has done as extensive of research on
Scientology, but Kent hasn't done a book on the years of Scientology
history from when Wallis left off, which was in 1976.
Please buy and read the hardback "The Road to Total Freedom." by Roy
Wallis.
>
>
>,,,,snip
>
> Well, I'm glad I at least pissed you off about that. At this point,
> it's probably good for you. But in fact, I think the Freezone can play
> at least a transitional role in sucking the life blood out of official
> Scientology. ;-)
>
>
I agree.
And Marcia Angell's viewpoint, to me, leads me to what I think the
future of mental therapy should aspire to, in parallel to medicine.
Which simply is one scientifically agreed upon subject, of the mind.
Fantasy beliefs without proof, should not be part of mental health
efforts to help people.
Scientology was built of a considerable initial base of people from
the alternative health groups (Wallis gets into this).
How many vitamin nuts and so inclined persons have been involved with
Scientology? Lots!
Alternative health people are suckers for alternative this's and
alternative that's.
The only "guru" I sort of incline to today, is "science"
methodology.
>....snip....
> Well, I think you are taking the whole shebang a bit seriously at this
> point, but maybe you will lighten up within a few years and find some
> sense of retrospective humor in what you endured. Jeff Hawkins has as
> one example.
>
>
Well, how'd I do, in the Radar Magazine article I got quoted in:
"Members of the general public know more about Scientology than
decades-long members do," says Chuck Beatty, a 27-year veteran who
worked for Author Services, Inc., …”
and
"Celebrities are gaining them exposure and ridicule," says Beatty,
"but they're not gaining them members."
and
“At the top ranks, there's a very high blow rate," says Beatty. "They
can't take it anymore." “
and
"I got in it because I thought the out-of-body experience was real,"
says Beatty. "And after 20 years, I found out, it's not. But by the
time you've gotten there, you've dumped a couple hundred thousand
dollars, or like me, 20 years of your life into it. You don't want to
give up. It's a group fantasy."
and
"Rinder leaving Scientology is like Goebbels leaving the Nazis," says
Beatty, who speculates that Rinder couldn't put up with Miscavige any
longer. Miscavige is notorious, former Scientologists say, for
mistreating and screaming at underlings.”
http://radaronline.com/from-the-magazine/2008/03/scientology_anonymous_protests_tom_cruise_01.php
>…snip….
>
> Yeah, and so was Christian Merkert or whatever his name was. I refer
> to the kraut fraudster who bamboozled the Buffalo org, and then placed
> himself under the protection of Ursula Caberta and yourself.
>
yea, agreed. He’s a smoothie, er con artist type. I grilled him
about 20 hours, while he stayed at my sister’s house, and I was
shocked when I later read he later invented all sorts of interesting
events, that had to be edited OUT of Andrew’s book at the last minute
because Christian made some outrageous claims about what he’d
supposedly seen and done. That was too bad, it is part of the
territory of the fragile people lured into Scientology in the first
place.
> When that sleazeebag said he had a book ready to sell in German and
> English, I "innocently" said I would help out with a final edit on the
> English version and enlisted Beth to say she would help. After which
> he simply disappeared because there was no book. I just corresponded
> with someone who ordered a copy, paid for it and didn't receive zip.
>
I warned people privately, that was the best I could do. His,
Christian’s, heart seemed to be in the right place, but he would NOT
contain himself when it came to his resume. He inflated what he’d
done and where he’d been and who he had worked for.
>…. snip….
> Well Chuck, if you lightened up a bit, you might notice that such
> venerable schools of thought as meditation and psychotherapy can
> easily be relegated to the category of new age crap fraud practices,
> because they aren't hard science. However, that doesn't mean there is
> something inherently wrong with them
fine. Marcia Angell’s views, are about as far as I’ll go. Let those
doing other research discipline themselves within the scientific peer
reviewed community.
I’m for no one pulling the wool and over hyping their “tech” until
it’s really peer supported.
The same views that rejected Hubbard and told him to go let his
“science” grow and prove itself.
It hasn’t. There are no “body thetans” no “Xenu” and no proof of
either. And Hubbard I believe will be the one who is clearly behind
this 1980s “revision” of the Bridge to beef up all the “body thetan”
removal extra work in the “new” OT levels 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7.
Hubbard died with “body thetans” still flaring, I recall being told he
was auditing himself on “body thetan” removal stuff in December 1985,
a month before he died.
That says it all for me, there’s just no way scientists are gonna
prove and thus never buy “body thetans” removal as a mental therapy,
spiritual mental therapy practice.
I’m serious, because I am a bad writer, way undereducated, struggle to
try to get my thoughts into words, and I may never become unserious,
since I’m just not that bright, sorry about that.
Chuck Beatty
realpch
<snip>
> > Hubbard was clearly a charlatan con artist just like Russell Miller
> > said in his all time excellent book, "Bare-Faced Messiah". Hubbard
> > charmed and exploited people's support.
>
> Yeah, and so was Christian Merkert or whatever his name was. I refer
> to the kraut fraudster who bamboozled the Buffalo org, and then placed
> himself under the protection of Ursula Caberta and yourself.
>
> When that sleazeebag said he had a book ready to sell in German and
> English, I "innocently" said I would help out with a final edit on the
> English version and enlisted Beth to say she would help. After which
> he simply disappeared because there was no book. I just corresponded
> with someone who ordered a copy, paid for it and didn't receive zip.
<snip>
You smelled some baloney, then? Nose working good?
: )
Peach
--
chuckbeatty77 @aol.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
My guess is the decline of Scientology will be longer and slower than
people think, is all.
Agreed the quicker they splinter, the better for those suckered into
the Hubbard con operation.
I'm all for full refunds for all people duped by the Scientology cult.
And I am NOT for letting ex members be preyed upon by freezone
"experts" who will do it "right."
Better to go to university, or get more degrees in universities if
one's already gone.