Re: A Statement Of Facts About Scientology
Kevin Brady
<coff...@aussieisp.com> wrote in message
news:1152923821.4...@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> Scientology works, can and does free people from their
> reactive and unconscious mind.
Scientology has an array of processes, Coffee. Not all of them "work" if
the intent is a person who is empowered to follow his own sense of ethics
intelligently and with resilience. CC-OTIII are, in my opinion,
delusion-inducing at worst, and a complete waste of time (other than
accidentally stirring up something real and connected) at best.
> What Scientology does with this technology, and how it
> applies it, and how it promotes L.Ron Hubbard is a problem.
I agree.
> When Scientology as defined by L.Ron Hubbard sets about
> to conquer the world, then you have a problem.
Luckily, most of the world isn't interested in science-fiction mythology,
and has smartened up enough to start to realize when they are being
"worked".
> To fight this 'domination game' as setup by L.Ron Hubbard,
> you have one vehicle of attack, and that is the Confidential
> & Copyrighted materials as owned by RTC.
No, but that's an effective way to defeat the bullshit line that scientology
doesn't have dogma and is non-denominational.
>You have to
> post these things on the Internet, & not get caught doing it.
Certainly I am happy when this occurs, but it doesn't defeat the Church.
Free flow of opinion about the Church defeats it, as does exposing
criminality and abuse.
> Everything else you do to Scientology, is like water off a duck's
> back. It is ineffective. Scientology is a law-bound entity, it
> only matters when you can undermine their control over their
> materials.
If scientology were bound to the law, there wouldn't be any trouble with
them at all. Sadly, they try to operate outside the law, or to corrupt its
processes to serve perverse aims.
> That's why the OSA leads the attack against Scientology on
> the Internet, they lead it, and they lead it astray. Don't be
> caught out by the agents of Hubbard. Talking about honour &
> such, and 'learning them some rules'. Most of these people,
> if not all of them are PTS to L.Ron Hubbard, as they are other-
> determined by L.Ron Hubbard. They lose the ability to go up
> the Bridge if they don't obey Hubbard to the letter. Their confront
> of the being L.Ron Hubbard as this being really is, is low.
I don't think that's true. I think they are just so full of False Data that
they cannot accept the accurate picture. The fix is false data stripping
about Hubbard, as well as getting true data from articles on this newsgroup,
at www.xenu.net, or by perusing their local library on the subject of
Hubbard and Scientology.
> Hubbard confronted the MEST universe, and in so doing became
> MEST like, highly structured & machine like, full of rules & laws,
> and punishments and penalties.
>
> Scientology is like a vast legal system,
Or illegal system, more like.
> setup to give out punishments,
> and serve unto them loses, ARCXs, and group mind control.
That's not a "legal system", that's a Pavlovian MindFuck. And Hubbard knew
it. Now you do, too! Yay!
>
Out_Of_The_Dark
> Scientology works, can and does free people from their
> reactive and unconscious mind.
>
> applies it, and how it promotes L.Ron Hubbard is a problem.
>
> to conquer the world, then you have a problem.
>
> you have one vehicle of attack, and that is the Confidential
> post these things on the Internet, & not get caught doing it.
> back. It is ineffective. Scientology is a law-bound entity, it
> only matters when you can undermine their control over their
> materials.
>
> the Internet, they lead it, and they lead it astray. Don't be
> caught out by the agents of Hubbard. Talking about honour &
> such, and 'learning them some rules'. Most of these people,
> if not all of them are PTS to L.Ron Hubbard, as they are other-
> determined by L.Ron Hubbard. They lose the ability to go up
> the Bridge if they don't obey Hubbard to the letter. Their confront
> of the being L.Ron Hubbard as this being really is, is low.
> MEST like, highly structured & machine like, full of rules & laws,
> and punishments and penalties.
>
> and serve unto them loses, ARCXs, and group mind control. <
I disagree that the technology works to free people from their reactive
and unconscious mind.
Scientology 'technology' is a faith dependent play on words designed to
control the believers who are seeking spiritual freedom. That
'technology' contains only bits of natural self-evident truths, which
are then incorporated into writings have the goal of leading the reader
astray from the spiritual path they thought would lead to freedom
This is the purpose of the technology. It's power comes only from a
false belief that it works, that it can do the things it says it can
do.
People walking on this path 'to spiritual freedom' ( with or without
sanction from the 'church') do so hoping that the next level will
produce what one failed to achieve with or maintain from the previous
level. This is blind faith lead by false hopes.
The net result is that the path leads to spiritual death - the emphasis
being on control of people places and things, exactly what Hubbard
wanted to achieve
One can have more gain just smiling at another human being in need of a
smile, than one can have with hubbard's pseudopsychology trash.
The 'technology' is already on the internet. I got alot of laughs
reading it, especially when reading it was supposed to kill us if we
we're at the appropriate level. Hogwash.
thorazine shuffle
> reactive and unconscious mind.
>
Look, you made it this far. You can make it the rest of the way
Pull your head out of your ass, admit you got completely screwed, and move
on with your life.
You can do it.
godrousin...@hotmail.com
Kevin Brady
<godrousin...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1152941484....@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
> Scientology works as well as any placebo effect.
http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/neuro/neuro99/web1/Kinser.html
K Palmer
These quotes from Star Trek V always remind me of the cult mindset:
Sybok: Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It
must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness
and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me...
and gain strength from the sharing.
Kirk: Damn it, Bones, you're a doctor. You know that pain and guilt
can't be taken away with a wave of a magic wand. They're the things we
carry with us, the things that make us who we are. If we lose them, we
lose ourselves. I don't want my pain taken away! I need my pain!
This has always reminded me of scientologists who talk of rfreeing
themselves of their reactive mind. It is my belief that every
experience we have, every memory, every event (even if we do not
actually remember it) is part of who we are - to "free" ourselves of it
is to dismiss our experience and invalidate who we are. We are who we
are because of what we have experienced - painful experiences teach us
something about who we are - tragedies happen - loss happens - should I
abandon who I am for some flaky philosophy that says free yourself from
your reactive mind. What would I become? An empty shell of who I was -
and all that pain and experience will still be there regardless of how
many hours I spend auditing. It is who I am - how I came to be - you
cannot "free" yourself from that. You can change how you react to
things but you cannot free yourself - there is no such thing as a state
of clear - or OT. We are who we are because of what we have experienced.
Hubbard tapped into the great human need to be in control of one's
entire life - but that is a fallacy - one cannot be in control of one's
entire life - we all have connections to others - many superficial but
they exist and we cannot control everyone in our enviroment - ever. It
is why kids rebel and families break apart - from enforced control - it
cannot work - to invalidate ourselves is to invalidate others and that
is not conducive to communication.
Fundamentalist groups provide simple straightforward answers for life -
simple steps to create a perfect life - just apply these steps, this
prayer, this ritual, this much money and life will be perfect. What
these groups are in fact doing is creating people who cannot feel, have
no compassion, and who hate anyone who stands up to them in any way.
Fear is a grand control mechanism within any group and is used to keep
the flock in line.
Not thinking for yourself, not questioning anything the leader teaches
as fact, not being able to talk to people about what you are learning,
not being able to freely communicate thoughts and feelings means you are
invalidating yourself and your experience. No one experiences the same
event the same way - not ever and being unable to talk about your "case"
except for your "wins" means you are being handled to make sure you
follow the party line always.
This is the true face of coercive groups and how they suppress the
natural human ability to learn and grow. Everything is neatly packaged
and laid out for you and all you have to do is follow the rules exactly
and you will be happy. What they do not bother to tell you is that the
rules will change arbitrarily and without notice and you better be
prepared to follow those changes too or else...
That is why cults are dangerous - they strip people of their individual
identity and ability to think freely and for themselves.
Kim P
banchukita
Kim, this is an excellent, thoughtful post.
How can you 'free' yourself of a reactive mind when it's not really
imprisoning you in the first place?
Religion serves a human need for individuals to participate in a larger
community -- think fellowship --but Scn, Inc. isolates and introspects
individuals while providing them with a false sense of community,
augmented by the 'we're at war' mindset.
How can you be in a constant state of war when there is no enemy?
-maggie, human being
>
> Kim P
Playfullminx
Human existance: we are more than the sum of our parts.
Take away the parts - and we become less than we are, and grow to
become less than what we can achieve.
You don't need to remove anything. As you grow, your perspective on
the world around you changes based on your experiences. A major part
of being human isn't in what we exerience...it's how we deal with the
experience.
Bad things happen. Period. Or stated a different way: Good things
happen to bad people. Bad things happen to good people. Shit happens.
Some people have better expenses...some people are "prettier" than
others. Some people are overweight, some are skinny as a rail. It's
all over the place.
Try and take an a people as diverse as humans and place them in a tiny
one-size-fits-all box, and you end up with a bunch of crazy people. Oh
wait a tick - that's like people in CoS. Hmmmm. I wonder how that
happened.
I'd much rather keep my memories in tact. Painfull memories can be
dealt with. Some easier than others - others are a bitch to deal with.
But that is what also makes people stronger. Unfortunately, some
people don't want to or can't deal with it so try and take an easy way
out - which can lead to more problems.
Not me, boy. You can keep your space aliens and occult luvin lunatic
who can't write a piece of truth if it were written for him. You can
keep your mind altering checklists that lead to morale, spiritual and
financial bankruptcy.
The sum of my parts more than makes up who I am - and I'm pretty happy
with that.
(besides, "the tech"....is stupid garblegook!)
Kevin Brady
news:44b8d95f$1...@news2.lightlink.com...
Well, I agree that many scientologists might hold such an ideal. However,
those who have studied the Tech (auditing tech, minus perverse, corrupted
implant levels [bows to Muldoon]) know that this is a misunderstanding. The
idea isn't to forget experiences we have had, or to eliminate them from our
minds. Instead, it is to "discharge" those memories or triggers
("buttons"), so that they can occupy a position in our memory, without
acting like a computer virus in our mind, and without causing flashbacks, or
"misemotion" to be attached to them.
> What would I become? An empty shell of who I was - and all that pain and
> experience will still be there regardless of how many hours I spend
> auditing. It is who I am - how I came to be - you cannot "free" yourself
> from that. You can change how you react to things but you cannot free
> yourself - there is no such thing as a state of clear - or OT. We are who
> we are because of what we have experienced.
There's a lot of truth to what you say, IMO. Certainly, the Church of
Scientology would rather have you an empty shell than possessing a mind
capable of critical thought. And this is a tricky area, because I think
many of their procedures, minus all the space opera crap and the implant
"suggestions", are capable of helping a person integrate their past and
become more flexible about their future (in terms of what their identity and
goals will be). Breaking someone down might be the Church's goal, but it
isn't mine. One of the theories that Hubbard blended into scientology from
other sources is that people tend to identify with the aggressor in abusive
situations. This is not the only situation in which people "unconsciously"
are changed by others and their environment, where they identify with some
situation or role. Parts of "the Tech" (auditing tech, minus perverse,
corrupted implant levels [bows to Muldoon]) can be used to help a person
cease to identify with that situation or role, and this doesn't infer that
they lose any understanding that they gained in that experience. They
simply cease unconsciously identifying and falling into a role that they
don't even realize they are doing, although others might point out to them
that they are acting different, etc. Of course, then the Church hits them
with the whammy of suggesting possible pasts that they then INSIST they
identify with, such that people believe all sorts of absurd things about
their history: they ARE crusaders against the evil psychs and their
off-planet masters after the mind-fuck is complete. They are completely
identified with this new role, it gives them a sense of purpose and meaning,
and it's completely horrible to see. That's why I cut off any sort of
support for "the Tech" (auditing tech, minus perverse, corrupted implant
levels [bows to Muldoon]) after R6EW, which I see as helpful in breaking a
person out of compulsive roles/identities. After that point, it's a
mind-fuck. Prior to that, the Church might use parts as bait to compel
people to do their bidding, but from that point forward, it really is
nothing but a "soft implant" operation.
> Hubbard tapped into the great human need to be in control of one's entire
> life - but that is a fallacy - one cannot be in control of one's entire
> life - we all have connections to others - many superficial but they exist
> and we cannot control everyone in our enviroment - ever. It is why kids
> rebel and families break apart - from enforced control - it cannot work -
> to invalidate ourselves is to invalidate others and that is not conducive
> to communication.
Agreed. The fantasy of control of the wide universe and the other occupants
in it is a dangerous power trip. It is the left-handed black magician path
that Hubbard was on. I owe a debt to Caroline Letkeman for pointing that
out to me. It broke the "benevolent wildman" spell Hubbard had sold me.
One can learn increasing control of the role one occupies, and become better
at executing such roles ("hats"), but aspiring to control others in this
enterprise is a wrong emphasis. While control is necessary in pretty much
any activity, it should be subordinate to the rights and sanctity of the
other people involved in that activity.
> Fundamentalist groups provide simple straightforward answers for life -
> simple steps to create a perfect life - just apply these steps, this
> prayer, this ritual, this much money and life will be perfect. What these
> groups are in fact doing is creating people who cannot feel, have no
> compassion, and who hate anyone who stands up to them in any way. Fear is
> a grand control mechanism within any group and is used to keep the flock
> in line.
True enough. Certainly the Church teaches demonization of those who don't
accept their message, particularly those who are evil psychs (as these are
the most resistant to their methods). However, it would be a wrong
assumption to imagine that scientologists cannot or don't feel, don't have
compassion, or are otherwise less than human. It's just
"counter-demonization". While there are people in this NG whose role it is
to act in exactly that manner, and might even have been crushed into a
viewpoint that actually doesn't have compassion or feeling, that is RARE in
scientology, and is a specialized function. It is a symptom of a disease
that does exist in smaller measure amongst "garden-variety" scientologists:
very quickly they are trained to spot disagreement, and pursue it as though
it were evidence of ill-intention, and this becomes second-nature (thanks to
heavy emphasis of an enforced interpretation of KSW and to a lesser extend
the Verbal Tech policies).
> Not thinking for yourself, not questioning anything the leader teaches as
> fact, not being able to talk to people about what you are learning, not
> being able to freely communicate thoughts and feelings means you are
> invalidating yourself and your experience. No one experiences the same
> event the same way - not ever and being unable to talk about your "case"
> except for your "wins" means you are being handled to make sure you follow
> the party line always.
I concur, with a caveat. The first part, about "not thinking for yourself"
is factually impossible. While you might adopt the leaders views, there is
no time when he actually thinks for you. The rest is drilled in, and it may
happen that people eventually get to a point where they cease questioning.
I never did. I didn't question with the intent to prove something false, I
just didn't accept things as necessarily so, just because Hubbard said them.
I did notice that others had suspended their disbelief, and were accepting
Hubbard's story on everything. I put it all in a "maybe" bin, except for
those things that I saw as "definitely so", which weren't all that many.
You might consider such an argument just semantics, but it's actually the
key to breaking the mind-fuck, if a person is a scientologist. At ANY time,
they can suddenly decide to cease suspending their disbelief, or re-examine
their beliefs and the sources of those beliefs. And while they may have
been acting as if another were thinking for them, they were actually
following a script that was drilled into them ("the Dissemination Drill",
handling antagonistic persons, obeying Verbal Tech policies, etc.): the
whole time they were thinking for themselves, even if they had abdicated
responsibility to another for the thoughts that they entertained. Devil is
in the details, if we want to help such people or understand them.
> This is the true face of coercive groups and how they suppress the natural
> human ability to learn and grow. Everything is neatly packaged and laid
> out for you and all you have to do is follow the rules exactly and you
> will be happy.
This packaging was attractive to me. However, as soon as parts of the
package break down, and you realize you aren't happy, they run the danger of
you deciding that the whole package is bullshit, if any part of it is. So,
while it's a good sales tactic, it causes major upsets and problems, and
they try then to handle these by forcing the person to see the fault in
themselves rather than the package. This was what was done with me. For a
while, I believed it. I believed I must be a suppressive person, because
the package was so impressive to me, since it wasn't working, the only
answer in the package was that suppressives were unresponsive: ergo, I must
be suppressive. This had me suicidal for a while, until I decided that
there WERE flaws in the package. This was a defense mechanism kicking in,
which I guard against identifying too strongly with. While I resent the
attempted mind-fuck, giving in to the reaction to give my life over to
hating the Church or making my life about being a protestant, etc., could be
consuming and unhealthy. We all find our own balance. I'm still sliding
around, deciding where it is healthy for me to help, and where it is just a
victim twitching at their attacker.
> What they do not bother to tell you is that the rules will change
> arbitrarily and without notice and you better be prepared to follow those
> changes too or else...
>
> That is why cults are dangerous - they strip people of their individual
> identity and ability to think freely and for themselves.
>
> Kim P
That's the illusion that they want the adherent to believe: that they are
now within a new system, that they must bow before that systems "source",
that they have no meaning outside that system, etc. And they are dangerous
to the extent that they get people to believe that illusion. But it is an
illusion. We are all as free as we decide to be.
--
http://www.myspace.com/clear_objectives
http://www.tir.org
http://www.esgs.org/uk/art/sands.htm
http://www.futurepsychiatry.com