"Reverse auditing"
Povmec
are the detail of this "process". If somebody can give me a explanation
of it, I will add it to the glossary.
Thanks,
Ray.
Warrior
Povmec says...
There are many "processes" that can be applied. The purpose for
applying "reverse auditing" is to induce a psychotic break in a
person. Some key words to Google: 'black dianetics' and Tabayoyon.
Warrior - Sunshine disinfects
"Scientology: it's about deception."
http://warrior.xenu.ca
Eldonbraun
> In article <1136481527.1...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> Povmec says...
> >
> >I saw the term a few times, but I'm not sure what this means, and
> >what are the detail of this "process". If somebody can give me a
> >explanation of it, I will add it to the glossary.
> >
> >Thanks,
> >Ray.
>
> There are many "processes" that can be applied. The purpose for
> applying "reverse auditing" is to induce a psychotic break in a
> person. Some key words to Google: 'black dianetics' and Tabayoyon.
Yeah, it is basically a guilt trip inducing thing. Positive processing
asks neutral questions designed to let the person find "stuff" and look
at it more or less objectively. Negative or "reverse" processing asks
questions containing an implicit accusation that will introvert the
person into mental quicksand.
I'll give you a specific example I heard about recently. A former
Scientologist took Harry Palmer's Avatar Master course some time ago.
She pissed off Avra, Harry's wife and chief trainer for some reason, so
dear Avra gave her the assignment of walking around a nearby lake in
the late Florida summertime, repeatedly asking herself the question,
"Why do I hate myself?"
That was reverse auditing with a vengeance. The former Scientologist
knew enough to question the origin of the process, which Avra said
"hadn't been published yet." So instead of running the process, she
walked around the lake trying to figure out why Avra wanted to demolish
her.
That might partially explain the difference.
Povmec
Thanks for the answers. I added both your definition to the glossary.
So mainly a process that induce guilt to the point of mental breakdown
if I understand correctly.
Ray.
Eldonbraun
You're welcome, and I would say that is an accurate enough definition.
It might also have to do with "failure" or "unworthiness" as well as
guilt. It's definitely intended to produce the opposite of self-esteem
or a sense of personal worth. Can anyone else help us out here?
>
> Ray.
Warrior
>> > Povmec says...
>> > >
>> > >I saw the term a few times, but I'm not sure what this means, and
>> > >what are the detail of this "process". If somebody can give me a
>> > >explanation of it, I will add it to the glossary.
>> Warrior wrote:
>> >
>> > There are many "processes" that can be applied. The purpose for
>> > applying "reverse auditing" is to induce a psychotic break in a
>> > person. Some key words to Google: 'black dianetics' and Tabayoyon.
>Eldonbraun wrote:
>>
>> Yeah, it is basically a guilt trip inducing thing. Positive processing
>> asks neutral questions designed to let the person find "stuff" and look
>> at it more or less objectively. Negative or "reverse" processing asks
>> questions containing an implicit accusation that will introvert the
>> person into mental quicksand.
>>
>> I'll give you a specific example I heard about recently. A former
>> Scientologist took Harry Palmer's Avatar Master course some time ago.
>> She pissed off Avra, Harry's wife and chief trainer for some reason, so
>> dear Avra gave her the assignment of walking around a nearby lake in
>> the late Florida summertime, repeatedly asking herself the question,
>> "Why do I hate myself?"
>>
>> That was reverse auditing with a vengeance. The former Scientologist
>> knew enough to question the origin of the process, which Avra said
>> "hadn't been published yet." So instead of running the process, she
>> walked around the lake trying to figure out why Avra wanted to demolish
>> her.
>>
>> That might partially explain the difference.
In article <1136492977....@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
Povmec says...
>
>Thanks for the answers. I added both your definition to the glossary.
>So mainly a process that induce guilt to the point of mental breakdown
>if I understand correctly.
The intent is to cause harm to an individual. I could write a book
on this subject and the abuses I know Scientology to have committed.
Maybe we should talk. Send me your phone number if you'd like me to
call you.
Eldonbraun
Oh, please do write a book or at least document it however. I only have
sporadic and secondhand knowledge of this insidious practice. I was
only a Scientology public, paying money, so they didn't do much of it
to me, so I have to (thankfully) admit that my definitions are
superficial.
Phil Scott
"Povmec" <pov...@xenu-directory.net> wrote in message
news:1136481527.1...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
'processing' is defined by Hubbard as a tactic applied that
makes a person better.
'Reverse processing' is designed to make a person worse...
it can take many forms.
In scn it is false accusations, then enforced. Saying
something discreditable read on the e meter when it didnt read
...then pursuing the protest as a sign that the bogus issue is
legitimate...demanding the person answer up etc...as you
accuse them. That sort of thing.... until the person is
driven to complete insanity as described by Andre Tabayoyan
(comonly practiced in Scn upper managment against its own
staff when they began to notice the fraud)
There are limitless variations. Asking a question then
never letting the person answer for instance.. If its a
minor question then its minor reverse processing... it its on
a hot subject, such as some tragedy or threat in the persons
life then the damage can be major... depending on how its done
and how persistently and with what vigor the person is accused
etc. (scn used gangs of people to accuse a person in what was
called a 'gang bang security check')
On a less obvious level... for the sake of this definition
lets assume that there really are no Marcabian fleets of jerks
circling the earth in mothah ships... issuing bogus mental
thought patterns intended to control people as Hubbard had
claimed.... you can make your victim go insane by
convincing him that there *is this Marcabian invasion under
way, and prove it to him by planting the suggestion
earlier.... then convince the guy that if 'marcabian invasion'
reads on the meter... thats it true. You have now generated
another scientologist nut case...but he looks normal.
Thats also reverse processing, it turns the dupe into your
slave since you are the one offering a solution to the
'Marcabian invalsion'... Hubbard created the lie, then the
threat, then enforced both, then offered a solution. Thats
all 'processing'...it has bad effects... so to use Hubbards
term... its 'reverse processing' actually... masked as a good
thing, processing, by Hubbard. the man lied a lot.
Lying is a dead give away... people with decent intentions
don't lie. Hubbard lived life lying pathologically.. and
advocating that as 'a way to control people'.
Lying is also 'reverse processing'.
if the dupe wakes up on the science fiction baloney... then
the cult reverse processes the person in ways that drive him
into a nervous wreck......by these enforced bogus read tactics
Ive mentioned...
The victim ends up foaming at the mouth driven into a state of
blubbering non comprehension your target is in no position to
expose the crap he used to control people... the marcabian
invasion sort of thing.. Hubbard specialized in the use of
both tactics.
Phil Scott
>
> Thanks,
> Ray.
>
great...@peoplepc.com
narrow things down to their simplest terms. With regards to "reverse
auditing" the cause and insanity the result, my first thought was
"Placebo Effect." You'd first have to be convinced that auditing had
validity to begin with, wouldn't you? As EldonBraun mentioned earlier
in this thread about a person being reverse audited, that person
apparently wised up and rejected it. But had this person believed
entirely in the process' efficacy (s)he might have very well gone
insane.
This is the first I've heard of this "process" and it reminds me of a
Star Trek episode (go figure!) where a small probe thinks Kirk is the
creator, and thus infallible. When Kirk tells the probe "I am lying,
including what I'm telling you now" (paraphrased for brevity), the
probe begins to self-destruct. I suppose that episode came to mind
while I was reading this thread because of the parallels to what is
being described... Here's a supposed "self help" group with clearly
written instructions for doing harm. Guess we'll never see a
Hippocratic Oath among $cientology "practitioners."
Hubbard was right about one thing though... "Truth" is what's true for
you. Thus his (and $cientology's) power is only as strong as you
believe it to be.
Great thread, and food for thought.
Cheers,
Brian Jackson/James
wbarwell
>>> > In article <1136481527.1...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
>>> > Povmec says...
>>> > >
>>> > >I saw the term a few times, but I'm not sure what this means, and
>>> > >what are the detail of this "process". If somebody can give me a
>>> > >explanation of it, I will add it to the glossary.
>
>>> Warrior wrote:
>>> >
>>> > There are many "processes" that can be applied. The purpose for
>>> > applying "reverse auditing" is to induce a psychotic break in a
>>> > person. Some key words to Google: 'black dianetics' and Tabayoyon.
>
It would be nice if you would do a report on this
and signs to look for for those in Scientology who
may encounter it.
"Things that should not be".
If a lot of this goes on, them it should be high on the
list of objectionable aspects of Scientology.
This should perhaps pen a more thoughful discussion
among old timers who have witnessed such, and a start
on delineating just what is reverse processing, and
how long it has been a Scientology habit.
This of course overlaps mean spirited practices
meant to break a person's will such as the "running
program" and other Scientology habits.
--
"A dead religion is like a dead cat -- the stiffer and
more rotten it is, the better it is as a missile weapon."
- H.G. Wells
Cheerful Charlie
Phil Scott
<great...@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
news:1136517427.8...@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Interesting, and thanks for posting this. As an engineer I
> tend to
> narrow things down to their simplest terms. With regards to
> "reverse
> auditing" the cause and insanity the result, my first
> thought was
> "Placebo Effect." You'd first have to be convinced that
> auditing had
> validity to begin with, wouldn't you?
IN some cases yes you would have to believe in the
efficacy...in most cases you need believe in nothing to be
ruined by such tactics...only present. Examples are seen in
all sorts of brainwash and torture strategies seen in history.
Everyone is succeptible to durress, or various combinations
..lies and duress etc. See my examples. Belief has nothing
to do with the strategy used on Lisa McPherson.. silent
treatment, restraint and drugs for 2 weeks...guarantees
insanity for most people. No belief required.
Phil Scott
Kevin Brady
> Interesting, and thanks for posting this. As an engineer I tend to
> narrow things down to their simplest terms. With regards to "reverse
> auditing" the cause and insanity the result, my first thought was
> "Placebo Effect." You'd first have to be convinced that auditing had
> validity to begin with, wouldn't you?
No. However, no one goes to see a counselor without having the idea
that it might help him. It's not a belief in any particular ideas
validity, it's your belief that something (anything) might help that is
the placebo. The specific thing offered by your counselor or sugar pill
from a doctor has this "placebo" transferred upon it by you, but it is
not inherent in that thing or it's validity (so long as you don't
DISBELIEVE, which would be a total sabotage of that effect). There is
no doubt that he placebo is a part of auditing. There's no harm in
that, because the placebo is an actual, real effect, which helps the
person recover or "get better". This is not because their "illness" or
condition was faked in the first place, or something less than a real
condition, it's because the mind has the power to contribute either to
your decline or to your recovery. Employing the placebo is not
unethical, although lying would be. The process of abreaction is not a
placebo, and is beneficial for people. This benefit can be amplified by
the placebo, and it can be minimized by it, should the person
disbelieve, or have his "gains" minimized or invalidated.
> As EldonBraun mentioned earlier
> in this thread about a person being reverse audited, that person
> apparently wised up and rejected it.
I certainly did!
> But had this person believed
> entirely in the process' efficacy (s)he might have very well gone
> insane.
If all that was involved was belief in the process, that would be true.
Luckily it is not.
> This is the first I've heard of this "process" and it reminds me of a
> Star Trek episode (go figure!) where a small probe thinks Kirk is the
> creator, and thus infallible. When Kirk tells the probe "I am lying,
> including what I'm telling you now" (paraphrased for brevity), the
> probe begins to self-destruct. I suppose that episode came to mind
> while I was reading this thread because of the parallels to what is
> being described... Here's a supposed "self help" group with clearly
> written instructions for doing harm. Guess we'll never see a
> Hippocratic Oath among $cientology "practitioners."
No, but they do have the Auditor's Code. That Code, however, is not
binding upon people who are not auditing. Scientologists who are not
auditing are bound by the Code of a Scientologist, which is another
matter altogether.
> Hubbard was right about one thing though... "Truth" is what's true for
> you. Thus his (and $cientology's) power is only as strong as you
> believe it to be.
Oversimplified. The Church, and Hubbard's, power are real, ask people
who have tangled with them. However, those powers aren't OT Powerz
(tm), they are chicanery, threats and harassing practices.
> Great thread, and food for thought.
>
> Cheers,
> Brian Jackson/James
>
--
"Our war has been forced to become 'To take over absolutely the field of
mental healing on this planet in all forms.' [...]
By showing him to be brutal, venal and plotting we get him discarded.
Our direct assault will come when they start to arrest his principals
and troops for crimes (already begun).
Our total victory will come when we run his organisations, perform his
functions and obtain his financing and appropriations."
-- L. Ron Hubbard
"The WAR", 2 Dec 69
Lisa Ruby
>if the dupe wakes up on the science fiction baloney... then
>the cult reverse processes the person in ways that drive him
>into a nervous wreck......by these enforced bogus read tactics
>Ive mentioned...
I wonder if Lisa McPherson was reverse processed?
Lisa Ruby
http://www.libertytothecaptives.net
Kim Palmer
She was reported to be on the Introspection RUndown:
http://www.lisamcpherson.org/introspe.htm
"The first step of the rundown is "isolate the person wholly with all
attendants completely muzzled (no speech)." [1] Auditing sessions are
given infrequently to search for the cause of the psychotic break during
this rundown, otherwise the person is isolated in complete silence."
This is done by untrained, unprofessional, and unqualified persons and
is,as written, dangerous and obviously fatal. This is not the way
to treat someone who is suffering a mental breakdown - nor is it
humane to shove drugs down her throat with a turkey baster - drugs
prescribed by a doctor over the phone without ever having seen the
patient.
THis is scientology in action - 100% standard tech delivered at FLAG
and it is about as useful as tits on a bull.
KimP
Ralph Hilton
<1136481527.1...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, :
Reverse processing means applying the tech backwards with harmful intent.
It could be done by, for instance, taking the introspection rundown questions and causing
the items listed rather than correcting them. The book of E-meter drills gives a drill on
cleaning and dirtying a needle. The things listed in there could be used to deliberately
introvert someone. A good indication that it is being done is to notice anything a person
says that causes one to introspect or suddenly feel smaller.
A "Why?" question is one sometimes used to introvert in general society. e.g. "Why do you
keep on doing stupid things?"
--
Ralph Hilton
http://www.ralphhilton.org
C-Meter: http://www.cmeter.org
FZAOINT http://www.fzaoint.net
Eldonbraun
Thank you, Ralph. That is a simple and obvious key word I was groping
around for. "Why?" is often a dumb and misleading question to begin
with. Many if not most things that happen weren't causative to begin
with. Accidents happen. So did Lisa McPherson "create" her
incarceration in the Fort Harrison?
This is the fallacy that underlies the reverse processing statement by
LRH, "You are totally responsible for the condition you are in." It's
also the evil and misleading intention that underlies A Course in
Miracles, Bashar, Avatar and a lot of other New Age bullshit that guilt
trips people into "taking repsonsibility" for everything that goes
wrong with their lives.
It's a bit simpler and more accurate just to believe that sometimes
shit happens and make the best of it.
"Why do I hate myself?" Well, in the first place, nobody taught me to,
and in the second place, I don't create all my own experiences. Other
naked apes contribute, and a few are complete assholes.
Phil Scott
"Lisa Ruby" <Commis...@groupmail.com> wrote in message
news:1136521999.3...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Phil Scott wrote:
>
>>if the dupe wakes up on the science fiction baloney... then
>>the cult reverse processes the person in ways that drive him
>>into a nervous wreck......by these enforced bogus read
>>tactics
>>Ive mentioned...
>
> I wonder if Lisa McPherson was reverse processed?
Others have posted on that...it appears she was after she
anounced she was going back to Dallas..then came the heavy
security checking etc... that is mostly applied abusively, and
would be a form of reverse processing... strapping her to a
bed, and jamming turkey basters full of drugs down her throat
while giving her the silent treatment for two weeks would be
among the worst possible forms of reverse processing... in
that case probably half a deliberate attempt to silence
her...and half following Hubbards idiocy with mix of vicious
sociopaths and idiots behind the scenes issuing orders, and a
few simple idiots on the front lines with the turkey baster
and straps.
Phil Scott
>
> Lisa Ruby
> http://www.libertytothecaptives.net
>
Eldonbraun
> great...@peoplepc.com wrote:
> > Interesting, and thanks for posting this. As an engineer I tend to
> > narrow things down to their simplest terms. With regards to "reverse
> > auditing" the cause and insanity the result, my first thought was
> > "Placebo Effect." You'd first have to be convinced that auditing had
> > validity to begin with, wouldn't you?
>
> No. However, no one goes to see a counselor without having the idea
> that it might help him. It's not a belief in any particular ideas
> validity, it's your belief that something (anything) might help that is
> the placebo. The specific thing offered by your counselor or sugar pill
> from a doctor has this "placebo" transferred upon it by you, but it is
> not inherent in that thing or it's validity (so long as you don't
> DISBELIEVE, which would be a total sabotage of that effect). There is
> no doubt that he placebo is a part of auditing. There's no harm in
> that, because the placebo is an actual, real effect, which helps the
> person recover or "get better". This is not because their "illness" or
> condition was faked in the first place, or something less than a real
> condition, it's because the mind has the power to contribute either to
> your decline or to your recovery. Employing the placebo is not
> unethical, although lying would be.
Sure, Milton Erickson was quite the master at "implanting" positive
suggestions that would encourage people to get better, or at least
minimize negative influences. I'm reminded of an anecdote related by a
clinical psychologist. When he had a wisdom tooth extracted, the
dentist (who had studied hypnosis and used it in his practice) said:
"There'll be a little bleeding and just enough pain to kick-start the
healing process. If it bothers you much, take one of these
painkillers." The psychologist, of course, knew what was going on
because of his training, and thought it was pretty cool. It also worked
just fine. It's the intent that counts.