Nearly every human being on this planet that is in trouble because
   ethics are out. Their lives are lives of misery -- just becasue of
   that. When you see three, five, ten million troops being killed in
   a war, they're being killed in a war just because there was an SP
   in some government nobody took out. And I think that's too many
   men to kill off just because there's one SP. It would only take
   one bullet, one beam, you know? I don't say we would go into it on
   that level. I don't wish to frighten you.

   I had poor John -- I had him -- I had him... He was't worried. He
   wasn't flustered or anything like that, but he was just a little
   bit protesty, slightly and so on. I was teasing him. I was saying,
   "I reserve the right to be able to tip over the White House." And
   nobody was to tip over the White House but me. I was snarling
   about something that had happened in America. He naturally took
   me seriously and it disturbed him. It disturbed him. I had to
   point out to him however I was not yet Clear, and therefore I
   had a right to want to tip over the White House. But what I
   didn't tell him is after the amount of trouble I was caused in
   '63 and so forth, I earned the right to tip over the White House!

   (excerpt from SHSBC lecture "About Rhodesia", 19 July 1966)

I could quote more surrounding material, but honestly, it doesn't
shed any light on this. Hubbard is talking about getting Ethics in
on the planet as the purpose of the OT Base he wants to establish.
His attempt in Rhodesia was unsuccessful because he said he had
not first properly identified the mission of OT Base before setting
out "barefooted to take a country". This lecture was presented just
3 days after he was kicked out.

In any even, "tipping the White House" sounds threatening to me,
especially coming just after Hubbard talked about "taking out" an
evil SP. It's entirely possible that he was joking -- he does say
he was teasing "John" (John McMaster?) but without the actual tape
to listen to his voice inflections, it's hard to tell from the
transcript. "John" took him seriously, though, so even someone
(apparently) well acquainted with Hubbard found it alarming.

Was the 1963 trouble he referred to when the Food and Drug
Administration raided the Washington, DC, Org over the e-meter?

        Keshet

--
x0h04rv02(at)sneakemail.com * http://solitarytrees.net/racism/
 Where prejudice exists it always discolors our thoughts -MT

Yes, I think he means as an "OT", doing some telekinetic act of
causing the White House building to literally tip over.

I think in contest, this was intended thought, and NOT literally.

LRH in lectures of that period talks about also being an OT, pure OT,
on a planet where bodiless OTs acted roles for the leaders on some
planets.  LRH in one lecture tells of pulling down the walls at a
theatre performance, on the crowd, killing some of the humans, and LRH
states in that lecture that this type of incident was why pure
bodiless OTs were NOT popular in meat body governed civilizations,
since a powerful OT could get into mischieveous situations or worse.

Again, LRH spread all over his doctrines talked about how an OT had to
be Clear, otherwise they'd do mischevious things or worse, and also
his doctrines about how an OT restrains himself, it all fits together,
namely an OT will shut their own power right down, since they see they
can just cause things in the physical universe.

This is all just fantasy and carefully layered to "make sense" but
there are NO OTs and no person has been like these floating gods.

But I mean, Greek gods weren't visible most of the time to humans
unless the Greek gods intended to take a human form or if they
intended to be seen by humans, and the Greek gods did all sorts of
physical intervention.

I mean, Hubbard's Scientology OTs are just like the minor gods who in
humankind's history did all sorts of fantastic things.

By tipping over the White House, when I read that quote, when I was a
Scientologist, I thought of the lecture when LRH talked of the pure OT
(bodiless OT) of that ancient civilization which collapsed the wall on
the audience at a theatre performance.

Another example of an OT doing planet leve mischief (genocide or
planeticide) is the tapes LRH mentions an OT "pulling the atmosphere"
off a planet and killing all life on a planet.

If you've listend to the tape lectures in the "Whole Track" lecture
series, I think there is one or two mentions of largescale descructive
power of one of these past track OTs.

Some freezone Scientologists should be able to give the lectures.

Best, Chuck Beatty
412-260-1170 Pittsburgh, USA
ex Sea Org (1975-2003)

Thanks for your input, but I think that is highly unlikely. Had JFK
heard LRH talking about "tipping the White House", I think JFK would
have sent the Secret Service around to LRH's door, particularly since
a little later in that same lecture, Hubbard tells his listeners that
if a real SP shows up in a Scientology group, "shoot them!"

Also, Hubbard was quite fond of name-dropping, you know, like he
called Aleister Crowley "my very good friend" and Hendrik Verwoerd
"a great guy". If he were referring to Kennedy, there's no doubt he
would have called him "Jack", and not John, to impress upon his
listeners how close they (JFK & LRH) were.

  > > Was the 1963 trouble he referred to when the Food and Drug
  > > Administration raided the Washington, DC, Org over the e-meter?
  > >
  > >         Keshet
  >        '63,  I think so.  The SP I think he was referring to was J.
  > Edgar Hoover,  director of the Federal Bureau of investagation and a
  > homosexual.

Well, if I were a Scientologist, I would certainly consider Hoover
an SP, on a number of levels. :-)

        Keshet

--
x0h04rv02(at)sneakemail.com * http://solitarytrees.net/racism/
 Where prejudice exists it always discolors our thoughts -MT

<snip>

  > In my opinion, yes to this being LRH's delusion "OT" reaction, being
  > not yet Clear, and being mad at the White House, which LRH in policy
  > writings blames Kennedy for the raid on the Scientology DC
  > organization.

I thought this might be the case, but wouldn't Hubbard have already
been Clear? I've always ASSumed he was actually Clear#1, as a result
of his "researches" before the release of Dianetics??

  > Yes, I think he means as an "OT", doing some telekinetic act of
  > causing the White House building to literally tip over.
  >
  > I think in contest, this was intended thought, and NOT literally.

That was my initial feeling as well. As I mentioned, it's hard to
tell when he is joking and when he is serious without *listening* to
his tapes (I don't have the SHSBC tapes, just some of the
transcripts). I tend to ASSume he is joking in matters like this,
until I get confirmation otherwise from elsewhere.

  > LRH in lectures of that period talks about also being an OT, pure OT,
  > on a planet where bodiless OTs acted roles for the leaders on some
  > planets.  LRH in one lecture tells of pulling down the walls at a
  > theatre performance, on the crowd, killing some of the humans, and LRH
  > states in that lecture that this type of incident was why pure
  > bodiless OTs were NOT popular in meat body governed civilizations,
  > since a powerful OT could get into mischieveous situations or worse.

I certainly would. :-)

  > Again, LRH spread all over his doctrines talked about how an OT had to
  > be Clear, otherwise they'd do mischevious things or worse, and also
  > his doctrines about how an OT restrains himself, it all fits together,
  > namely an OT will shut their own power right down, since they see they
  > can just cause things in the physical universe.

Is it possible to be OT without being clear??

  > This is all just fantasy and carefully layered to "make sense" but
  > there are NO OTs and no person has been like these floating gods.
  >
  > But I mean, Greek gods weren't visible most of the time to humans
  > unless the Greek gods intended to take a human form or if they
  > intended to be seen by humans, and the Greek gods did all sorts of
  > physical intervention.
  >
  > I mean, Hubbard's Scientology OTs are just like the minor gods who in
  > humankind's history did all sorts of fantastic things.
  >
  > By tipping over the White House, when I read that quote, when I was a
  > Scientologist, I thought of the lecture when LRH talked of the pure OT
  > (bodiless OT) of that ancient civilization which collapsed the wall on
  > the audience at a theatre performance.
  >
  > Another example of an OT doing planet leve mischief (genocide or
  > planeticide) is the tapes LRH mentions an OT "pulling the atmosphere"
  > off a planet and killing all life on a planet.

This reminds me of Hubbard's story of the Venuzuelan dictator who
wiped out leprosy by blowing up all the beggars (some of whom
presumably did not have leprosy). At the end of that tale, Hubbard
says he's not advocating violence but simply relating an historical
note. However, for me, the story comes across as a veiled threat.
I've come across a couple other instances where he's done something
like this, and I think he does it on purpose--actually intending the
threat (like in your planeticide story, as an example of the power of
of OTs) but making a joke of it, so he couldn't actually be accused
of making threats. It's creepy.

  > If you've listend to the tape lectures in the "Whole Track" lecture
  > series, I think there is one or two mentions of largescale descructive
  > power of one of these past track OTs.

I have the Whole Track tapes and have listened to a couple. I guess
I need to listen to more.

  > Some freezone Scientologists should be able to give the lectures.

Thanks for your input.

        Keshet

--
x0h04rv02(at)sneakemail.com * http://solitarytrees.net/racism/
 Where prejudice exists it always discolors our thoughts -MT

I think he honestly felt himself a "natural" clear of pretty immense
status already.  Reference Keeping Scientology Working, where he gives
himself the unstated "....we will not speculate here how I rose above
the bank..."  (I paraphrase Keeping Scientology Working policy of
1965)

I think also David Mayo may have more to say, or others like Paulette
Ausley, or some others who audited LRH, maybe Reg Sharpe even audited
LRH, I don't recall who all audited him, and what LRH actually said
privately to his auditors about his status as regards to Clear and OT.

In the late 1970s, like 1978 or so, when LRH came out with the
"Dianetic" Clear he also came out with the "natrual Clear" (someone
clear already before, someone who naturally has been Clear all along).

If you have the opportunity, go onto ESMB, the Ex Scientologist
message board and strike up a conversation with Alan Walter, since
Alan was a contemporary or LRH, and had numerous frank "tech"
conversations with LRH over the years, and Alan's probably got some
important firsthand undeniably historical details of LRH saying this
or that about who LRH conceived of LRH's own case state, or not, but
Alan can talk about the whole crew of top tech people of the 1960s.

Paulette Ausley and David Mayo, both have studied LRH's case folders,
so they should know reams about LRH's conception of himself
privately.  And until Hubbard's case folders find their way into the
public domain, I urge people to somehow get into the public domain as
many anecdotal accounts of these tech people who tried to care
Scientologically for Hubbard's "case."   I think there's no way the
details will become public, not unless these people write privately
and hold their writings or recorded views until after they are pass
away, so as not to cause legal difficulties for them.

Otto Roos also, I recall, tried hard to help handle Hubbard's "case",
so might know what Hubbard privately thought of himself around this
time in 1963 when Hubbard was making these comments you quote.

I hope Otto likewise someday privately writes or allows some in depth
interviews about Hubbard, even privately, for release after Otto
passes away if need be.

Example, I read the 1981 or 1982 jab comment by Hubbard about the
administrator who screwed up handling the Missions, a man named John
Acxel.   LRH said in this 1982 advice, I paraphrase (but I've
confirmed this with the Messenger on Duty level trusted former CMO
Messenger person who also read this Hubbard advice/order) LRH said:
"...and if you see John Acxel, spit on him for me....."   (I've asked
Roger Barnes, who was there when John was spit on by Miscavige if it
was true, Roger said yes, it happened, and Roger was also spat on.)
(John Acxel is a mild mannered Englishman, sort of a Harvey Cox
lookalike, with thick dark rimmed glasses, and John was asked to take
his glasses off before Miscavige struck him and spat on him, this was
1981 or 1982 at Gilman Hot Springs.)

That "...spit on him for me...." was entirely figurative in my
librarian lower echelon person's viewpoint.  I know Larry Brennan,
much higher, much more on the spot when the "...spit on him or
me...."  LRH order/advice was issued, Larry was in the thick of
executing top level corporate solutions for the "fanatical" top
players, working cheek and jowel with David Miscavige, not quite as
closely as was Jesse Prince who was even closer to David Miscavige,
but the point is Larry saw this same LRH advice/order and Larry
thought that the top players, Miscavige, Jesse, Steve Marlowe, Wendell
Reynolds, Mark Yager, thought this was to be taken literally.

I from the lower level sort of librarian expert view, could clearly
see the LRH comment was meant as figuratively.   I think Larry is
probably more right, but I hope others who were there at the moment of
John Acxel's spitting/hitting incident speak up for the record.

But in the top level world, at that time, amongst these new "young
turks" taken the reigns, the "....spit on him for me...." comment was
taken literally, and that was date coincident, in my opinion, with
that early 1980s fad David Miscavige and others felt was an "ethics
gradient" so sptting on staff occurred.    Homer Schomer's being spit
on by the majority of the Author Services Inc staff in 1982 was an
example.

Miscavige in one church event lays it out that even if the CIA get all
the churches L rundown and high level rundowns, like the superpower
rundowns, that an evil person gaining the OT abilities won't be able
to use those abilities for long, since the person being evil will
automatically shut themselves down, Hubbard claiming there is a built
in "ethics" that thetans (us as souls) have to limit us even using our
latent OT power!   Conviently believable plausible explanation
acceptable to the faithful who want to keep believing in the OT
powers, and it's a built in explanation for why no one can demonstrate
their pure OT horsepower, in that it is due to each of our low ethics/
moral state we prevent ourselves from getting back our OT
superpowers!

I don't think Hubbard is the first in stating this about the high
supposed spiritual horsepower abilities, but I think even this dodge
excuse also existed for thousands of years with all the eastern
spiritual guru powerful mystics as well.  (I'm not a trained religious
historian, but that's my guess.)

read more »

Yeah right.  In truth, he had cow flops flowing from both sides of his
orifice.

--
Ron of that ilk.