Do you believe the truth is out there and why ?
Pat
humorous
or serious (philosophical, religious, or non-religious) definition of
that is, is
really out there (or not) and please why.
Pat
Jack
"Pat" <puni...@earthling.net> wrote in message
news:51e6d72b-b492-43bd...@m3g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
Yes the truth is right outside the window. It's 68 degrees already this
morning.
Sir Frederick
Yes, but :
1. it may be stranger than we humans CAN conceive.
2. it will take working through too many levels of self deceit.
3. the stories we have, work well enough.
4. hubris is more important than truth.
5. the putative gods prefer us "believing" in this charade.
6. charades require contextual and method acting immersion.
7. "Mother Deceit Nature" doesn't care about "truth".
8. etc.
bigfl...@gmail.com
What sort of truth would you expect to find out there?
Do yo think that something must happen 'in there' to recognise
whatever it was? After all, you are looking at it, it is not looking
at you.
BOfL
Peacenik
news:51e6d72b-b492-43bd...@m3g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
The truth is that which accurately describes reality, and reality is the
only thing that exists. So, yes. The truth is out there.
John Baker
wrote:
>To use X-Files lingo, do you believe the truth - whatever your
The universe operates according to consistent laws. Those laws are, at
least in theory, understandable. So yes, the truth is out there. We've
already learned enough of it to have a pretty fair idea of how things
work and how they got here. Whether we're smart enough to figure out
the rest is another matter.
Leon Hoeneveld
The only thing real enough to accept is patterns Pat.
Out there could be all just virtual, illusional, fiction, but the
patterns are real enough to accept as truth. They don't need material to
exist.
However some would say a pattern needs material to be noticable.
You could also say that material is a noticable pattern.
What was first the dino or the egg?
Tim
"John Baker" <nu...@bizniz.net> wrote in message
news:ngq3749udkgtcu2qc...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 7 Jul 2008 05:49:35 -0700 (PDT), Pat <puni...@earthling.net>
> wrote:
>
>>To use X-Files lingo, do you believe the truth - whatever your
>>humorous
>>or serious (philosophical, religious, or non-religious) definition of
>>that is, is
>>really out there (or not) and please why.
>
>
> The universe operates according to consistent laws.
People come up with laws to give meaning to the phenomenon they observe.
> Those laws are, at
> least in theory, understandable. So yes, the truth is out there. We've
> already learned enough of it to have a pretty fair idea of how things
> work and how they got here. Whether we're smart enough to figure out
> the rest is another matter.
>
>
Until we figure out the rest, how can we be certain that what it is we are
trying to explain and find the truth about operates according to consistent
laws?
Perhaps the truth is chaos! That is there is no truth other than what we
manufacture as such.
John Locke
wrote:
>To use X-Files lingo, do you believe the truth - whatever your
At the quantum level, the truth does not always apply. If you ask a
quantum particle where it is, it cannot say. It can be either here or
there but the particle itself doesn't know. We can never know.
That is the nature of the quantum world.
On the other hand, it is true that quantum particles
behave in a random fashion and that a particle can behave
as a wave or a particle or that a particle can be in two places
at once.
The truth is that truth itself is limited. We are limited by the
natural fundamental structure and function of our universe.
If not, we would cease to exist.
"There is not enough love and kindness in the world
to give any of it away to imaginary beings." - Friederich Nietzsche
Thurisaz, Germanic barbarian
We still know precious little about the universe, and we may well never be
able to know it all. So yeah, there is definitely much truth out there
still waiting to be found out.
--
"To his friend a man a friend shall prove, and gifts with gifts requite;
But men shall mocking with mockery answer, and fraud with falsehood meet."
(The Poetic Edda)
Must have been written with fundies in mind...
My personal judgment of monotheism:
http://www.carcosa.de/nojebus
MarkA
Because it sure as hell isn't what lives in your head.
--
MarkA
Keeper of Things Put There Only Just The Night Before
About eight o'clock
SkyEyes
I have no use for "truth." Everybody has their own version of "the
truth." The christians have their version, the muslims have their
version, the scientologists have *their* version, etc., etc. ad
nauseum.
I care about *facts*. That's why I have no use for religion - I have
yet to encounter a religion that has a good grasp of the facts.
Brenda Nelson, A.A.#34
BAAWA Knight
EAC Professor of Feline Thermometrics and Cat-Herding
skyeyes nine at cox dot net
Bill M
"SkyEyes" <skye...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:a2f2ab58-0706-4be4...@e53g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
Dubh Ghall
Can you be a little more specific?
"The truth is out there", is at best, vague.
Wordsmith
Why bother to seek it? Let it find you.
W : )
Jonathon Barbera
wrote:
>To use X-Files lingo, do you believe the truth - whatever your
The true Supreme Being loves, forgives, and accepts us all
unconditionally, now and forever without exception!
The true Supreme Being is exterior to the physical universe. People
cannot locate, measure, or weigh the Supreme Being because the Supreme
Being is not within objective reality.
The true Supreme Being has no desires or karmic entanglements, being
wholly detached from the physical universe and everything that occurs
within it. The Supreme Being remains forever in a perpetual state of
perfection.
Any god with names and characteristics, taking action within the
physical universe, communicating desires, or demanding worship is a
false god. Why ask forgiveness from a false god? They are guiltier
than any of us!
Learn to love, forgive, and accept yourself unconditionally. Only then
can you learn to love, forgive, and accept others. The distance that
we falsely perceive between ourselves and the Supreme Being is a
direct result of the guilt, regret, and shame to which we cling. When
the crust of karma is broken through, the light of pure sunshine can
penetrate the layers and reach the true self buried deep below.
bigfl...@gmail.com
> "John Baker" <nu...@bizniz.net> wrote in message
>
> news:ngq3749udkgtcu2qc...@4ax.com...
>
> > wrote:
>
> >>To use X-Files lingo, do you believe the truth - whatever your
> >>humorous
> >>or serious (philosophical, religious, or non-religious) definition of
> >>that is, is
> >>really out there (or not) and please why.
>
> > The universe operates according to consistent laws.
>
> People come up with laws to give meaning to the phenomenon they observe.
>
> > Those laws are, at
> > least in theory, understandable. So yes, the truth is out there. We've
> > already learned enough of it to have a pretty fair idea of how things
> > work and how they got here. Whether we're smart enough to figure out
> > the rest is another matter.
>
> Until we figure out the rest, how can we be certain that what it is we are
> trying to explain and find the truth about operates according to consistent
> laws?
>
> Perhaps the truth is chaos! That is there is no truth other than what we
> manufacture as such.
Some have discovered that, ome havnt.
Can you imagine a day where the scientists says "stop everything,its
all chaos, nothing to discover"?
Some are here to figure, some all ready have.
And the beat goes on...........
BOfL
bigfl...@gmail.com
Who's head.....?
BOfL
bigfl...@gmail.com
> > wrote:
>
> >>To use X-Files lingo, do you believe the truth - whatever your
> >>humorous
> >>or serious (philosophical, religious, or non-religious) definition of
> >>that is, is
> >>really out there (or not) and please why.
>
> > The universe operates according to consistent laws.
>
> People come up with laws to give meaning to the phenomenon they observe.
>
> > Those laws are, at
> > least in theory, understandable. So yes, the truth is out there. We've
> > already learned enough of it to have a pretty fair idea of how things
> > work and how they got here. Whether we're smart enough to figure out
> > the rest is another matter.
>
> Until we figure out the rest, how can we be certain that what it is we are
> trying to explain and find the truth about operates according to consistent
> laws?
>
> Perhaps the truth is chaos! That is there is no truth other than what we
> manufacture as such.
Some have discovered that, some havnt.
Jonnie Tyler
news:kfa5741hlfq0t9f4r...@4ax.com...
> Any god with names and characteristics, taking action within the
> physical universe, communicating desires, or demanding worship is a
> false god. Why ask forgiveness from a false god? They are guiltier
> than any of us!
That's why they have that think call the "Logos" (or Christ), man . It is
supposed to act as go-between the unreachable God and the poor mortals.
Preventer of Work
I have a large supply of truths and am ready to take offers.
A sampling:
"From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs."
A truth known as communism, and one particular well suited to species
such as hymenoptera (ants and bees).
"Goddidit"
A truth made for two kinds of people. The first, one with a wish to
dominate the thoughts of others. The second, one too lazy to
work out the details of the real world and is willing to be told
what to think. Comes in many incompatible flavors and levels
of violent zealotry.
"A million men are wiser than one man"
A truth known as democracy, though often hijacked by SIGs (special
interest groups) and SIFs (Single Issue Fanatics). Requires a
strong Constitution and a willingness to kick butt for it.
"One man is wiser than a million men"
Occasionally a truth, but not reliable due to specialization issues.
"the proper moral purpose of one's life is the pursuit of one's own
happiness or "rational self-interest"; that the only social system
consistent with this morality is full respect for individual rights,
embodied in pure, consensual laissez-faire capitalism."
A truth called objectivism which works well with species that are mildly
social and not prone to much jealousy. May work well for cats if
the 'consensual' part is de-emphasized.
Each is wonderful for those who embrace them.
The trouble is that "truth" is in the mind of the holder, while
objective reality does what it does and you just have to deal
with it.
Immortalist
Maybe "forms" as in Plato's forms are out there in some sense, not as
actual things but as possible event and interactions in processes. If
the self is identical to a process, or its activity of processing,
then who is to say that this particular self cannot continue on with
some other machinery?
Imagine a library which contained all possible books which could
possibly be written with 26 or more letters, numbers or markings
For every sensible line of straightforward statement in the readable
books there are leagues of senseless cacophonies, verbal jumbles and
incoherence. Nonsense is normal in the this hypothetical Library. The
reasonable (and even humble and pure coherence) would be an almost
miraculous exception.
Nearly all the books are full of random letters. One book might be
made up of the letters MCV, perversely repeated from the first line to
the last. Another (very much consulted, by the way) is a mere
labyrinth of letters, but the next-to-the last page says Oh time thy
pyramids.
All the books, no matter how diverse they might be, are made up of the
same elements: the space, the period, the comma, the twenty-two
letters of the alphabet. He also alleged a fact which travelers have
confirmed: In the vast Library there are no two identical books. From
these two incontrovertible premises he deduced that the Library is
total and that its shelves register all the possible combinations of
the twenty-odd orthographical symbols (a number which, though
extremely vast, is not infinite).
So, in other words, any book you could possibly write, in any
language, could be found (theoretically) in the library. It contains
all past and future books! Everything: the minutely detailed history
of the future, the archangels' autobiographies, the faithful catalogue
of the Library, thousands and thousands of false catalogues, the
demonstration of the fallacy of the true catalogue, the Gnostic gospel
of the Basilides, the commentary on that gospel, the commentary on the
commentary on that gospel, the true story of your death, the
translation of every book in all languages, the interpolations of
every book in all books.
All possible books exist in this library of form.
Re-arranged from OutOfControlKevinKelly;
http://www.kk.org/outofcontrol/ch14-a.html
http://www.kk.org/books/index.php
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0201483408/
So replace the letters, numbers and punctuation marks with the table
of elements or different atoms. Then when these atoms are combined we
get words, phrases, sentences, paragraphs, etc... so that human selves
or souls woul be not actual but always possible as long as the laws of
hysics remain the same. Plato's immortal and existence forms may then
be immortal and persitent "possibilities."
In mathematics and physics, a phase space is a space in which all
possible states of a system are represented, with each possible state
of the system corresponding to one unique point in the phase space.
For mechanical systems, the phase space usually consists of all
possible values of position and momentum variables. A plot of position
and momentum variables as a function of time is sometimes called a
phase diagram.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_space
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/quantum/phase.html
The Theory of Forms typically refers to Plato's belief that the
material world as it seems to us is not the real world, but only a
shadow of the real world. Plato spoke of forms (sometimes capitalized
in translations: The Forms) in formulating his solution to the problem
of universals. The forms, according to Plato, are roughly speaking
archetypes or abstract representations of the many types and
properties (that is, of universals) of things we see all around us.
Form and idea are terms used to translate the Greek word (eidos).
According to Plato's view, there is a form for every object or quality
in reality: forms of dogs, human beings, mountains, colors, courage,
love, and goodness. Indeed, for Plato, "god" is identical to the Form
of the Good. Forms exist in a "Platonic heaven," and when people die
(or, as by contemplation, become detached from the material world),
their souls achieve reunion with the forms. Plato makes it clear that
souls originate in this "Platonic heaven" and have recollection of it
even in life.
Jonnie Tyler
news:b0a0859a-619b-4fd8...@d1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> The Theory of Forms typically refers to Plato's belief that the
> material world as it seems to us is not the real world, but only a
> shadow of the real world. Plato spoke of forms (sometimes capitalized
> in translations: The Forms) in formulating his solution to the problem
> of universals. The forms, according to Plato, are roughly speaking
> archetypes or abstract representations of the many types and
> properties (that is, of universals) of things we see all around us.
>
> Form and idea are terms used to translate the Greek word (eidos).
> According to Plato's view, there is a form for every object or quality
> in reality: forms of dogs, human beings, mountains, colors, courage,
> love, and goodness. Indeed, for Plato, "god" is identical to the Form
> of the Good. Forms exist in a "Platonic heaven," and when people die
> (or, as by contemplation, become detached from the material world),
> their souls achieve reunion with the forms. Plato makes it clear that
> souls originate in this "Platonic heaven" and have recollection of it
> even in life.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_forms
I don't understand well the difference between Forms, Ideas, Archetypes -
are these different words for he same concept?
Hephaestus
> On Mon, 7 Jul 2008 05:49:35 -0700 (PDT), Pat <punis...@earthling.net>
My guess is we probably never will, it's impossible to ascertain what
other new fields of science will develop in the future, just as it was
a century ago before they discovered molecules.
C3
Well if you stand in the corner of a room and then cross it to the
other corner, is it not the truth that you stood in the other corner?
Does this mean you are still there? Some truths seem to come and go
as such but supposedly there is a truth and it does exist somewhere
"out there". I get this from my faith in God.
C3
Roger Larsson
The truth about Ron Hubbard and his dangerous cult of scientology is
what's working in the real world and all the lies he stood for are
still working in scientology. It's just a matter of time before his
lies stops to work in scientology also.
ZerkonX
> do you believe the truth ...is
> really out there (or not) and please why.
The truth you speak of is not 'out there'. It is. Using 'it' is dodgy
because this can imply a separateness from something for instance a lie
or a falsehood. If a lie is told or a falsehood believe they are as true
as their opposites. Everything that exists is truth. Belief, knowledge
and understanding about what does and does not exist have nothing to do
with this other than being as much a part of it as everything else.
Virtue and vice, truths and lies have their own consequences. If one
believes a brick wall does not exist then runs into it, both the belief
and the wall are true. If there is a continued belief that this wall does
not exist, that belief is also continues to be true as does the wall as
do the consequences of this.
If this same person now believes the wall to be there this does not
negate their previous belief as being true or as having existed. Value,
virtue or falsehood is determined by consequence or process.
Uncle Vic
> To use X-Files lingo, do you believe the truth - whatever your
> humorous
> or serious (philosophical, religious, or non-religious) definition of
> that is, is
Believing the truth is not necessary. Truth is known. There is
evidence for truth. The rest is just speculation.
--
Uncle Vic
2011
bigfl...@gmail.com
wrote:
> "Immortalist" <reanimater_2...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> - Show quoted text -
We have ideas (speculations) 'about ' forms, some of which take the
shape of archetypes.
BOfL
Wordsmith
His paradigm of deceit is still going strong.
W : )
Immortalist
> "Immortalist" <reanimater_2...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
Idealism is the doctrine that ideas, or thought, make up either the
whole or an indispensable aspect of any full reality, so that a world
of material objects containing no thought either could not exist as it
is experienced, or would not be fully "real." Idealism is often
contrasted with materialism, both belonging to the class of monist as
opposed to dualist or pluralist ontologies.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idealism
The differences are easy to find, unless your an idealist.;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_Forms
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Form_%28philosophy%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idea
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archetype
JT
I know but it takes a long time to read all these Wikipedia article. I was
hoping someone could summarize the differences in a few lines.
My understanding is this.
Ideas are the ultimate reality of what is projected on the wall of the cave.
The forms here are but the shadow of the real Form, with a big F. These are
unique Archetypes of things which exist in a multitude, derived, various of
these Archetypes.
In this respect, Ideas, Forms and Archetypes would be just the same.
Still, it seems to me that there are subtle differences between them.
An Archetype seems to me to be a sort of blueprint, like "something that has
hot blood, that breathes and moves around" could be an Archetype of many
animals.
A Form would just be a higher reality of something, like the perfect Form of
a dog would be what dogs down on earth aim for.
As for an Idea, it seems to me to allude to something more abstract, like
the Idea of Beauty...
Day Brown
18th century Bengalese Saint Ramprasad, still at the apex of the Vedic
canon before the Brits took over, said that everything you see is part
of a "projected matrix" out of the mind of the Goddess.
The findings of quantum physics seems to support him. In the Bagavad
Gita it says that some of what you encounter are divinely created and
animated forms that only exist as a challenge to the fulfillment of your
kharma. Like the monsters in a 3D video game. The Gita calls these forms
"Avatars". Hello?
The thing about an Avatar, as you see so often here, is that while you
may learn from one, you cant teach him anything. He is programmed to
know what he seems to know and responds accordingly. When you exceed the
parameters of his programming ad hominum subroutines commonly kick in.
Whether you get to know the truth is a matter of your Kharma. There's no
necessity for you or anyone else to ever get it. What passes for reality
is a 3D movie that most attend without any thot at all as to why it is
being presented or how. They came to watch the show.
If you stand up to face the source of the light, you'll be somewhat
blinded and annoy those around you. But if you persist in stumbling
around in the dark, you may make it all the way back to the projection
booth. However, when you open the door, you'll see systems at work that
you do not really understand, and for which you have no nomenclature to
describe. And when you get back to your friends, if you try to explain
to them, they will tell you to sit down and shut up. They are here to
watch the show, not listen to your rantings.
JT
news:487658af$0$15528$ec3e...@unlimited.usenetmonster.com...
> If you stand up to face the source of the light, you'll be somewhat
> blinded and annoy those around you. But if you persist in stumbling around
> in the dark, you may make it all the way back to the projection booth.
> However, when you open the door, you'll see systems at work that you do
> not really understand, and for which you have no nomenclature to describe.
> And when you get back to your friends, if you try to explain to them, they
> will tell you to sit down and shut up. They are here to watch the show,
> not listen to your rantings.
Anyone seen the Truman Show with Jim Carrey? And what about The Matrix?
These film pick up on those ideas.
Day Brown
about Saint Ramprasad, over 200 years ago, describe the Matrix was
really spooky. And of course, the zeitgeist on some of the Matrices does
not permit certain ideas to exist in the minds of those there.
pba...@worldonline.nl
> To use X-Files lingo, do you believe the truth - whatever your
> humorous
> or serious (philosophical, religious, or non-religious) definition of
> that is, is
The truth about what?
In fact information is only true as far as it is usefull.
like "what goes up must come down" is usefull if it prevents us from
throwing an iron ball straight up over our head.
So what do you want to know, and for what purpose?
:-)
Love
Peter van Velzen
July 2008
Amstelveen
The Netherlands