Fair game again....conveniencies and leaving out data....Armstrong, Rice & Heldal-Lund (repost from nov 25 2004)
Spacetraveler
Their earlier responses were just defending their stance, without adding or
changing anything at all on their websites. Andreas never responded in spite
of various reposts. But he has apparently been busy with other things. May
be he will address it now...
The points made in this post are as valid as ever!
Spacetraveler
Fair game again....conveniencies and leaving out data....Armstrong, Rice &
Heldal-Lund
Gerry Armstrong:
http://www.gerryarmstrong.org/50grand/cult/sp/pl-1968-10-21-cancel-fair-game
.html
Fredric L. Rice:
http://www.fairgamed.org/fairgame.htm
Andreas Heldal-Lund:
http://www.xenu.net/fairgame-e.html
*********************************************************************
It appears that attackers of Scientology continue to be dishonest about some
things. It seems popular to just leave out some data when it is found
convenient to back up some claim made, how incredibility convenient!
Now, what is being left out?
They say that "HCO PL 18 Oct 67 Issue IV "Penalties for Lower Conditions""
was only cancelled for the use of the name 'fair game'. And that L. Ron
Hubbard meant it to be that fair game in reality never was cancelled.
This then would be: "HCO PL 21 Oct 68 "Cancellation of Fair Game""
And that is simply not true!
The issue they very conveniently leave out is:
"HCO PL 21 July 68 "Penalties for Lower Conditions"", which is predating the
reference that they are quoting.
HCO PL 21 July 68 cancelled the 1967 issue that they are upholding this very
day as being in use!!!! My God, it was cancelled already 36 YEARS AGO!!!!
You'll find the whole story on following links:
http://fair-game-law.notlong.com &
http://hcopl-cancellation-fair-game.notlong.com
Gerry Armstrong makes the claim:
"But Hubbard was just fair gaming his "enemies" with his "cancellation,"
just playing a trick on them. He "cancelled" the use of the term "fair game"
when declaring people "enemies" or "SPs," with the cynical excuse that it
caused bad PR, but he ordered that the same "treatment" of those "enemies"
continue as before. The Scientologists in the Hubbard regime knew that the
same violent, antisocial and criminal actions were to be taken against these
"enemies," the "SPs."
Fair game would continue, but it would not be called by that name."
The ever 'honest' Fredric Rice says something similar.
Andreas Heldal-Lund however does not in particular make this claim, and he
seems only to have been misled. Do you see!
Would they acknowledge the existence of: "HCO PL 21 July 68 "Penalties for
Lower Conditions"", then they will lose an argument. "No!", say Armstrong
and Rice, "it is better to simply ignore this issue, and we then simply will
mislead our readers!"
Previously I have had various discussions about this on the ARS, and both
Gerry Armstrong and Fredric Rice were approached at many occasions. Well,
their websites are still not quoting this reference.
And they are still telling the same dishonest claims (not to say 'lies').
And don't forget: "Gerry Armstrong is the expert on 'fair game'."
Yeah, let us not forget that! He wrote that to me at various locations! I
haven't had contact with Andreas Heldal-Lund about this, however he must
have seen the discussions about this matter. I would strongly urge him to
adjust his webpage.
Spacetraveler
Rev Norle Enturbulata
"Spacetraveler" <spacetra...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:LIqNd.16614$d5.1...@newsb.telia.net...
| Here we have it again...
Yes, your denial of the truth of Fair Game, in adherence to the Scientology
agenda insisting that what it continues to do has not been done for years,
is self-evident.
Address this if you can or are not afraid:
Why can't you confront those articles in the Buffalo News that gave your
cult such a tarring this week?
The Man Behind the Church: How Scientology Began
http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20050130/1056545.asp
Defending Against its Critics
http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20050130/1055254.asp
What Scientologists Believe - and What Critics Say
http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20050130/1056579.asp
The Star Treatment
http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20050131/1067682.asp
Addiction Specialists Criticize Detoxification Program
http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20050201/1051251.asp
Scientology Tests' Purpose and Validity are Questioned
http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20050202/1008269.asp
And, unlike Scientology in any published form, which is never allowed in the
cult to be thought of as less than PERFECT, the Buffalo News has published a
Corrections listing at
http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20050201/1067437.asp .
Ever seen a "Corrections" listing in a Scientology tract?
Four-Part Series:
Enlightenment's Dark Side (1/4)
http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20050130/1056567.asp
Being In, Breaking Out (2/4)
http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20050131/1060672.asp
Helping Spread the Word (3/4)
http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20050201/1064780.asp
Outside Critics are Unacceptable (4/4)
http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20050202/1064176.asp
Your comments on the above would be useful, assuming that you're allowed to
read them, or not too afraid.
Hip hip hooray!
http://www.xenu.net
http://www.xenutv.net
http://www.scientology-lies.com
http://www.whyaretheydead.net
Rev. Norle Enturbulata
"Church" of Cartoonism
* "You can write that down in your book in great big letters. The only way
you can control anybody is to lie to them."
* - L. Ron Hubbard, "Technique 88"
*
* "Radiation is apparently enormously water-soluble as well as water
removable. According to researchers, one merely has to take a hose to a
building surface or a road to wash the radiation off of it. This factor is
well known to defense trained personnel."
* - L. Ron Hubbard, Clear Body, Clear Mind, page 47
*
"You're supposed to eat vegetables, not listen to them."
- UK Review of Hubbard's "Thank You For Listening"
*
"Scientology is evil; its techniques evil; its practice a serious threat to
the community medically, morally and socially; and its adherents sadly
deluded and often mentally ill."
- 1965 Report into Scientology by Australian Government
Magoo
"Spacetraveler" <spacetra...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:LIqNd.16614$d5.1...@newsb.telia.net...
"Spacetraveler" <spacetra...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:gKqNd.16616$d5.1...@newsb.telia.net...
> Andreas Heldal-Lund:
> http://www.xenu.net/fairgame-e.html
>
> ******************************************
>
> An additional comment can be made on Andreas Heldal-Lund. He claims on
> that
> page:
> "I personally got a copy of the course manual "PTS/SP COURSE - How to
> Confront and Shatter Suppression" as printed by the cult in 1989. This
> extract is from page 128 and shows that not even the wording was really
> changed after all."
>
> Referred is to the following:
> "The ex-student should realize this makes him Fair Game and outside our
> Justice Codes."
>
> I intended to verify this, and was able to locate 4 copies of this 1989
> edition from different sources. None of them carried the texture as shown
> above. It is also to be noted that these 'packs' were binders. You can put
> in or take out pages as you please, just make sure they have those 4 holes
> on the sides. So how do we know that not someone else purposely fed
> Andreas
> with this information? Photocopies are also quickly made, who would see
> the
> difference.
>
> Personally I can add that this was either a mistake this mentioning of
> 'fair
> game' in the 1989 pack, or it is simply a fake! I have been familiar with
> things and happenings in this organization for many years and to claim
> that
> fair game would be so openly in use that they would print that in a 1989
> pack, is utterly ridiculous!
>
> Please add this information on your webpage Andreas! You can either
> mislead
> people or inform them, Let THEM do the judging!
>
> Spacetraveler
I find it amazing that "The Church <<Spit!>> of Scientology TO THIS DAY
continues to practice "Fair Game", yet ST continues to grind away at his
program to black pr various critics, trying over and over to insist this
issue was cancelled.
IF the Hilton Hotel was fined for harming it's members by serving old,
crummy food that made them sick,
would it make it OK with you if they'd posted some BS flyer saying their
food was better, and still served the same bad food?
That is what you say, over and over.
The flyers don't cut it, dooooooooood.
Tell um to knock of the Fair Game, totally.
People will still talk about it, however at least you can prove the food is
better. This was the flies are surrounding you AND the food, darlin.
Tory/Magoo~
.
T
>
>
>
>
Jommy Cross
<spacetra...@hotmail.com> wrote in msg
<LIqNd.16614$d5.1...@newsb.telia.net>:
<snip>
>It appears that attackers of Scientology continue to be dishonest about some
>things. It seems popular to just leave out some data when it is found
>convenient to back up some claim made, how incredibility convenient!
>
>Now, what is being left out?
>
>They say that "HCO PL 18 Oct 67 Issue IV "Penalties for Lower Conditions""
>was only cancelled for the use of the name 'fair game'. And that L. Ron
>Hubbard meant it to be that fair game in reality never was cancelled.
>This then would be: "HCO PL 21 Oct 68 "Cancellation of Fair Game""
>And that is simply not true!
>
>The issue they very conveniently leave out is:
>"HCO PL 21 July 68 "Penalties for Lower Conditions"", which is predating the
>reference that they are quoting.
>
>HCO PL 21 July 68 cancelled the 1967 issue that they are upholding this very
>day as being in use!!!! My God, it was cancelled already 36 YEARS AGO!!!!
I think it's you who's dishonest, Space.
HCO PL 21 July 68 Penalties for Lower Conditions clearly does *not*
explicitly cancel Hubbard's repellant Fair Game policy.
You choose to *infer* that from the changes in the list of things that
Hubbard wants done to people he doesn't like, from
ENEMY - SP Order. Fair game. May be deprived of property or injured by
any means by any Scientologist without any discipline of the Scientologist.
May be tricked, sued or lied to or destroyed.
L Ron Hubbard, 18 Oct 67
to
ENEMY - Suppressive Person order. May not be communicated with by anyone
except an Ethics Officer, Master at Arms, a Hearing Officer or a Board or
Committee. May be restrained or imprisoned. May not be protected by any
rules or laws of the group he sought to injure as he sought to destroy or
bar fair practices for others. May not be trained or processed or admitted
to any org.
L Ron Hubbard 21 July 68
Is that an explicit cancellation 36 years ago? No. It's your wishful
thinking today, Space.
It's you thinking with corkscrews, pretzels and string.
Incident zero: Ron trolled you
Ever yours in fandom,
Jommy Cross
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Fredric L. Rice
>On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 15:28:43 GMT, "Spacetraveler"
><spacetra...@hotmail.com> wrote in msg
>>day as being in use!!!! My God, it was cancelled already 36 YEARS AGO!!!!
><snip>
>I think it's you who's dishonest, Space.
He's been trying to play pretend with Hubbard's embarrassing written
policies for maybe a couple of years now, trying to pretend that the
policy which orders ringleaders not to use the name of the policy due
to it being reported in the media and in court rooms some how means
that the policy of Fair Game has some how been canceled.
He's well aware that he's lying only to himself.
>to
---
Stop Elmer Fudd web site: http://www.ElmerFudd.US/
Covert text file server: http://www.notserver.com/
Scientology crooks: http://sf.irk.ru/www/ot3/otiii-gif.html
FRice Antiwar: http://www.skeptictank.org/antiwar.htm
Another Scientology murder: http://PerkinsTragedy.org
Spacetraveler
"Fredric L. Rice" <FR...@SkepticTank.ORG> wrote in message
news:110dlim...@corp.supernews.com...
> jommycross@[127.1] (Jommy Cross) wrote:
> >On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 15:28:43 GMT, "Spacetraveler"
> ><spacetra...@hotmail.com> wrote in msg
> >>HCO PL 21 July 68 cancelled the 1967 issue that they are upholding this
very
> >>day as being in use!!!! My God, it was cancelled already 36 YEARS
AGO!!!!
> ><snip>
> >I think it's you who's dishonest, Space.
It is this simple dear Fredric. You don't quote "HCO PL 21 July 68 Penalties
for Lower Conditions" on your site. This issue that factually cancels your
Fair Game issue. I repeat, you DON'T make ANY mention of it. This makes you
a liar and a manipulator...
People DO see what you are doing, and I point it also out to them...
Spacetraveler
Rev Norle Enturbulata
|
| "Fredric L. Rice" <FR...@SkepticTank.ORG> wrote in message
| news:110dlim...@corp.supernews.com...
| > jommycross@[127.1] (Jommy Cross) wrote:
| > >On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 15:28:43 GMT, "Spacetraveler"
| > ><spacetra...@hotmail.com> wrote in msg
| > >>HCO PL 21 July 68 cancelled the 1967 issue that they are upholding
this
| very
| > >>day as being in use!!!! My God, it was cancelled already 36 YEARS
| AGO!!!!
| > ><snip>
| > >I think it's you who's dishonest, Space.
|
| It is this simple dear Fredric. You don't quote "HCO PL 21 July 68
Penalties
| for Lower Conditions" on your site. This issue that factually cancels your
| Fair Game issue. I repeat, you DON'T make ANY mention of it. This makes
you
| a liar and a manipulator...
|
| People DO see what you are doing, and I point it also out to them...
Try this for a change. You can't seem to confront them! FLUNK!
Why can't you confront those articles in the Buffalo News that gave your
cult such a tarring this week?
The Man Behind the Church: How Scientology Began
http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20050130/1056545.asp
Defending Against its Critics
http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20050130/1055254.asp
What Scientologists Believe - and What Critics Say
http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20050130/1056579.asp
The Star Treatment
http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20050131/1067682.asp
Addiction Specialists Criticize Detoxification Program
http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20050201/1051251.asp
Scientology Tests' Purpose and Validity are Questioned
http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20050202/1008269.asp
Four-Part Series:
Enlightenment's Dark Side (1/4)
http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20050130/1056567.asp
Being In, Breaking Out (2/4)
http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20050131/1060672.asp
Helping Spread the Word (3/4)
http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20050201/1064780.asp
Outside Critics are Unacceptable (4/4)
http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20050202/1064176.asp
...or perhaps this operative is just chicken.
Rev Norle Enturbulata
"Church" of Cartoonism
*
"The anti-drug campaign sounds like a red herring to me - they are just
trying to promote Scientology in our schools. I really do not know why the
police are supporting them."
- A parent of a 15-year-old attending Secondary School in Westminster UK,
2004
*
"We would not for a moment consider allowing Scientologists to come into our
school."
- Joe Heggarty, governor of St Vincent's RC primary school, Westminster UK
*
from The Wood & Vale newspaper, at http://tinyurl.com/5qmg4
Chezwick T. Feeglebrox III esquire
have been cancelled(I'm not saying it was) simply because the general
public sees it as an extremely repugnant idea, and therefore the
cancellation was a practical tactic to relieve the pressure of having
to present Scientology as such a paradigm shift from society's accepted
ethics. Cancelling "fair game" of course doesn't mean the organization
or it's philosophy has changed significantly. The question is whether
A "fair game" policy exists in practice and permeates the philosophy of
Scientology, regardless of any one specific written policy.
I and 3 others had the opportunity to be invited to watch a 30 minute
film that essentially made an assertion that Scientology is a religion,
at the large Royal Oak Michigan Scientology building a few years ago.
It was 30 minutes of a few movie stars and others simply asserting that
Scientology was a religion. Never in the movie did they say anything
about what Scientologists believe. I thought the film was a bizarre
type of stylized repetition. Nice music and production quality, I
might add. The four of us were then taken aside individually and
paired with a staff member. I was paired with the general manager
woman who was in charge of the entire office there.
She said "You've seen the film...Here's a paper to sign saying you've
seen the film". I took the paper and read it. It said nothing about
seeing the film - it said I personally believed Scientology is a
religion!
I said, "This paper says that I think Scientology is a religion. I
don't know what Scientology is, the film said nothing about what
Scientology is."
She then said, "Well, you've seen the film. It's obviously a religion.
Just sign this paper saying you've seen the film."
I said, "The film apparently was just movie actors saying that
Scientology was a religion. I don't know what Scientology is. Maybe
if you explained what scientology was then..." It was evident I wasn't
easily going to sign the document.
She then interrupted and asked "what religion are you, what's your
background?" I said I was raised Catholic. She then got audibly angry
and raised her voice, leaned forward, and sneered "You want me to tell
you what to do?!!" For a moment I was stunned and didn't move. This
freaked me out and I got out of the building, as soon as I got done
gasping. She was in an instant able to change her demeanor from
friendly to extremely hostile, as soon as she realized the organization
wasn't going to be served. She didn't want me to understand, she
wanted me to produce a valuable signature. I suppose that piles of
those "testimonials" were coersed out of people and collected, then
used to "prove", in court or otherwise, that so many people believe
Scientology was a religion.
Time and again, as I read firsthand accounts of experiences with
Scientology, there seems to be two universes that the individual
Scientologists and their organization operate in. In the first
universe the Scientologist may appear as a typical member of society,
and may even share values and ethics more similar to mine than a member
of my immediate family. I may even aspire to be as ethical as the
Scientologist in that arena. But once an issue of Scientology's
benefit is brought up, the Scientologist/organization shifts to the
universe in which benefit for the organization is the imperative.
Therefore, Jekyl and Hyde type behavior might be an expected symptom in
these shifts. The "fair game" policy might not therefore, be the/a
driving force in shaping Scientology's philosophy, rather that policy
might then be a symptom of the Scientology philosophy. I have to
imagine that one could find quite a bit of other "fair game" type
philosophy in much of Scientology's teachings. I believe then, that
possibly the woman manager who so quickly turned on me at the Royal Oak
Scientology building, may not typically turn hostile when challenged or
not getting her way. There are people whose personality dictates they
get nasty when not getting their way, but she may not be one of those
people. In fact, she may show extreme deference and grace, so long as
the issue is not Scientology's benefit. Maybe it was only when
Scientology didn't get it's way did she shift to the hostility. Also,
her hostility may not have been frustration, but a last ditch effort to
coerse the signature, therefore serve the Great Ethic of serving
Scientology.
I had been lifelong friends with a staff member at that Scientology
location, the one who invited me to see the film, until in our very
early twenties we lived apart and I later found out he got immersed in
Scientology. Scientology seemed to consume most of his time. His name
is Tom Bright, and I don't know if he's still active at that location,
although he was management at the time I last contacted him. I hope
the best for Tom and everyone in Scientology, but I hope most of all
that they question, and are able to question, their situation and how
they might be adversely affecting others or of course themselves. I
ask Scientologists to question why there are incidents in Scientology
such as the financial scam scandal that happened with the management in
Royal Oak just before my friend Tom got into management there. I ask
them to question why it seems they are able to demand straightforward
communication with others, while at the same time enabling themselves
the license to do "whatever it takes" to attack those who "attack"
Scientology, and to define simple criticism as an attack.
- Bill H.
Fredric L. Rice
>"Fredric L. Rice" <FR...@SkepticTank.ORG> wrote in message
>news:110dlim...@corp.supernews.com...
>> jommycross@[127.1] (Jommy Cross) wrote:
>>>On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 15:28:43 GMT, "Spacetraveler"
>>><spacetra...@hotmail.com> wrote in msg
>>>>HCO PL 21 July 68 cancelled the 1967 issue that they are upholding this very
>>>>day as being in use!!!! My God, it was cancelled already 36 YEARS AGO!!!!
>>><snip>
>>>I think it's you who's dishonest, Space.
>It is this simple dear Fredric.
You've posted your theories before and I suppose it's marginally possible
that you actually believe them. What you haven't attempted to address,
however, is why Fair Game is still an on-going, active, officially
sanctioned program if you think Hubbard wrote that it was canceled. It
could be that since you can't lie your way out of the written policy, you
might start trying to explain how Scientology has been infiltrated and
taken over or something to explain why Fair Game is still going.
Incidentally we also see that Operation Snow White is still going, and
it's for the same reasons Fair Game is.
Spacetraveler
"Fredric L. Rice" <FR...@SkepticTank.ORG> wrote in message
> "Spacetraveler" <spacetra...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >"Fredric L. Rice" <FR...@SkepticTank.ORG> wrote in message
> >news:110dlim...@corp.supernews.com...
> >> jommycross@[127.1] (Jommy Cross) wrote:
> >>>On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 15:28:43 GMT, "Spacetraveler"
> >>><spacetra...@hotmail.com> wrote in msg
> >>>>HCO PL 21 July 68 cancelled the 1967 issue that they are upholding
this very
> >>>>day as being in use!!!! My God, it was cancelled already 36 YEARS
AGO!!!!
> >>><snip>
> >>>I think it's you who's dishonest, Space.
> >It is this simple dear Fredric.
>
> You've posted your theories before and I suppose it's marginally possible
> that you actually believe them. What you haven't attempted to address,
> however, is why Fair Game is still an on-going, active, officially
> sanctioned program if you think Hubbard wrote that it was canceled. It
> could be that since you can't lie your way out of the written policy, you
> might start trying to explain how Scientology has been infiltrated and
> taken over or something to explain why Fair Game is still going.
>
> Incidentally we also see that Operation Snow White is still going, and
> it's for the same reasons Fair Game is.
FACT REMAINS that you do NOT quote HCO PL 21 July 68 on your site!!!!!!!
This continues to point you out as a manipulator, and also a liar, because
you have been made aware fo the existence of this very issue. It DOES NOT
MATTER if you say that it cancels Fair Game or not as per you personal
opinion. You DON'T MENTION THE ISSUE AT ALL.
Meaning you DON'T want people to find out and judge for themselves!!!
And there we have it, THIS is what Fredric Rice, Gerry ARmstrong are all
about... And it's these same persons who are accusing the CoS for a variety
of things, which they in fact commit themselves.
Spacetraveler
Spacetraveler
"Chezwick T. Feeglebrox III esquire" <bil...@twmi.rr.com> wrote in message
news:1107809933....@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
Interesting story, this is how it often goes, I agree. Seen it happening
lots of times.
Spacetraveler
Fredric L. Rice
>"Fredric L. Rice" <FR...@SkepticTank.ORG> wrote in message
>> What you haven't attempted to address, however, is why Fair Game is
>> still an on-going, active, officially sanctioned program
>FACT REMAINS that you do NOT quote HCO PL 21 July 68 on your site!!!!!!!
<heh> You're a one-scream pony, Spaced. Aren't you even going to try
to attempt to claim that Fair Game isn't an on-going, official policy?
Silence on the datum indicates agreement.
Spacetraveler
"Fredric L. Rice" <FR...@SkepticTank.ORG> wrote in message
> "Spacetraveler" <spacetra...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >"Fredric L. Rice" <FR...@SkepticTank.ORG> wrote in message
> >> What you haven't attempted to address, however, is why Fair Game is
> >> still an on-going, active, officially sanctioned program
> >FACT REMAINS that you do NOT quote HCO PL 21 July 68 on your site!!!!!!!
>
> <heh> You're a one-scream pony, Spaced. Aren't you even going to try
> to attempt to claim that Fair Game isn't an on-going, official policy?
>
> Silence on the datum indicates agreement.
You attempt to weasel yourself out of things. You don't explain why you
don't mention the 21 July 68 issue on your site...
YOUR intend is clear, thank you...
Spacetraveler