Valkyrie: "Nazi Apologia"
Tom Klemesrud
better.
[...]
Roger Friedman, film critic for Fox News, said the movie appeared to
intentionally minimise the impact of Nazism.
"I'm concerned that Valkyrie could represent a new trend in filmmaking:
Nazi apologia. Not once in Valkyrie do any of the 'heroes' mention
what's happening around them. Hitler has systemically killed millions,"
said Friedman.
"Valkyrie opens the door to a dangerous new thought: that the Holocaust
and all the other atrocities could be of secondary importance to the
cause of German patriotism."
[...]
Hartley Patterson
> "I'm concerned that Valkyrie could represent a new trend in filmmaking:
> Nazi apologia. Not once in Valkyrie do any of the 'heroes' mention
> what's happening around them. Hitler has systemically killed millions,"
> said Friedman.
Could it be that - gasp - it was being Historically Accurate instead of
Politically Correct? Oh dear me no, we can't have that.
> "Valkyrie opens the door to a dangerous new thought: that the Holocaust
> and all the other atrocities could be of secondary importance to the
> cause of German patriotism."
Total and utter nonsense.
--
Hartley Patterson
http://www.newsfrombree.co.uk/
http://news-from-bree.blogspot.com
Barbara Schwarz
wrote:
> W
I have a big problem with that too.
I think that the only reason why the Germans allowed that film and
supported it and even in part financed it is because they want another
image, the image of good Nazis.
This here rather how it was and is in Germany:
http://www.passau-wiki.de/index.php/Anna_Elisabeth_Rosmus
Already Schindler's list was a move in the direction to find apologies
for people who were involved in the gruesome Third Reich activities.
Schindler profited from Jews slave work. It doesn't make him a good
person. He saved Jews because wanted them for the free labor. He made
business by producing weapons for Hitler. He was made into a hero too
through that movie.
Stauffenberg was a high official in Hitler's regime. A person of
character would have never come that far under Hitler as Stauffenberg
did. That he decided one day that Hitler should go still doesn't put
him on my list of heroes.
I saw on TV that Tom Cruise said that when he read the script, his
first thoughts were that this Stauffenberg story can't be the truth.
His first impression could have been the right one.
Assassination plots could have been staged to send a message to the
world that killing Hitler fails all the time. The "hero" could have
been told that he might be arrested but not executed or that he is
shot with blanks and later revived. In any case, still intolerant,
insane, and brutal Germany works on its image and that movie does help
them.
Perhaps the trend to make movies about "good Germans or Austrians"
during the Third Reich started already with the "Sound of Music"? But
this guy at least didn't make a career under Hitler.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georg_Ludwig_von_Trapp
There are probably also other examples.
I sure hope that the next movie that Tom Cruise makes about the Nazi
era is a movie about the men behind Hitler, his psychiatric case
officers! This is the movie that we really need no Nazi apologia!
Barbara Schwarz
Monica Pignotti
wrote:
> When Nazis are made to look not that bad, Scientology looks a whole lot
> better.
>
>
> [...]
>
> Roger Friedman, film critic for Fox News, said the movie appeared to
> intentionally minimise the impact of Nazism.
>
> "I'm concerned that Valkyrie could represent a new trend in filmmaking:
> Nazi apologia. Not once in Valkyrie do any of the 'heroes' mention
> what's happening around them. Hitler has systemically killed millions,"
> said Friedman.
>
> "Valkyrie opens the door to a dangerous new thought: that the Holocaust
> and all the other atrocities could be of secondary importance to the
> cause of German patriotism."
>
> [...]
I have no idea how he could have gotten that idea from the movie. I
saw it and in no way was it in any way minimizing Nazis. On the
contrary, the movie was about someone with the courage to overthrow
the Nazi government. I've given up trying to figure out Fox news and
how they come to many of the conclusions they come to, though, so that
review fits right in over there, I suppose.
Barbara Schwarz
wrote:
P.S. You, Tom Klemensrude don't get it either. The German secret
service changed L. Ron Hubbard's Scientology through their
infiltrators.
Whatever happened within the orgs that wasn't absolutely good is not
Scientology but German set ups.
I know, because I myself experienced the infiltration.
Barbara Schwarz
Calculon
> P.S. You, Tom Klemensrude don't get it either. The German secret
> service changed L. Ron Hubbard's Scientology through their
> infiltrators.
> Whatever happened within the orgs that wasn't absolutely good is not
> Scientology but German set ups.
> I know, because I myself experienced the infiltration.
> Barbara Schwarz
Ooooohhhh. Sounds sexy.
Any pics????
Tom Klemesrud
> tom...@netscape.delete.net quoted:
>
>> "I'm concerned that Valkyrie could represent a new trend in filmmaking:
>> Nazi apologia. Not once in Valkyrie do any of the 'heroes' mention
>> what's happening around them. Hitler has systemically killed millions,"
>> said Friedman.
>
> Could it be that - gasp - it was being Historically Accurate instead of
> Politically Correct? Oh dear me no, we can't have that.
>
>> "Valkyrie opens the door to a dangerous new thought: that the Holocaust
>> and all the other atrocities could be of secondary importance to the
>> cause of German patriotism."
>
> Total and utter nonsense.
>
It's nonsense to me that these upper-level Nazis--and they were
Nazis--didn't know the Jews were being exterminated. Are you saying
that in the interest of historical accuracy--that they didn't know it;
or that they didn't care to mention it in this historically accurate film?
Hartley Patterson
> It's nonsense to me that these upper-level Nazis--and they were
> Nazis--didn't know the Jews were being exterminated.
Go read some history books on the subject, don't make assumptions. Some
knew more than others, most didn't want to know. To slap a 'Nazi' label on
all of them is too simplistic. Evil doesn't work like that.
They knew the Nazis sent anyone they didn't like to slave labour camps
certainly. They were not by our standards nice guys. Plots in the German
military to overthrow the Nazis went back a long way, and intensified as
it became obvious that Germany was going to lose the war. That was their
focus, with firestorms in German cities and barbarians advancing from the
East the fate of the slave workers was simply not THE priority to them. To
US it is, but it was not to them. They worried about the people they knew
who were dying - families back home, comrades on the battlefront.
> Are you saying
> that in the interest of historical accuracy--that they didn't know it;
> or that they didn't care to mention it in this historically accurate film?
Neither. It would have been anachronistic to have them discuss the
atrocities, since as plotters they had already decided to risk their lives
to overthrow the government.
Eldon
wrote:
> tomk...@netscape.delete.net:
>
> > It's nonsense to me that these upper-level Nazis--and they were
> > Nazis--didn't know the Jews were being exterminated.
>
> Go read some history books on the subject, don't make assumptions. Some
> knew more than others, most didn't want to know.
Hey, the US had its own concentration camps (euphemistically called
"relocation camps") for citizens during WW II.
www.english.uiuc.edu/maps/poets/g_l/haiku/camps.htm
It's worth noting that the Germans didn't really get into
extermination until 1942, and the camps were pretty much off limits to
the public and most of the military. The worst death camps, including
Auschwitz-Birkenau, weren't in Germany but Poland. So it's likely that
few of these people knew what was really going on there. They could
have easily dismissed any rumors they heard.
The Nazis were good at propaganda. They even had a model "settlement"
that fooled the Red Cross.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradise_Camp
"Rev" Norle Enturbulata, OD, DTS
"Eldon" <Eldo...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1ce3c7e1-24e3-4410...@l33g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
> On Dec 28, 5:49 am, Hartley Patterson <hptt...@daisy.freeserve.co.uk>
> wrote:
>> tomk...@netscape.delete.net:
>>
>> > It's nonsense to me that these upper-level Nazis--and they were
>> > Nazis--didn't know the Jews were being exterminated.
>>
>> Go read some history books on the subject, don't make assumptions. Some
>> knew more than others, most didn't want to know.
>
> Hey, the US had its own concentration camps (euphemistically called
> "relocation camps") for citizens during WW II.
> www.english.uiuc.edu/maps/poets/g_l/haiku/camps.htm
>
> It's worth noting that the Germans didn't really get into
> extermination until 1942,
There are mixed reviews from historians about the minuses and pluses of the
US Internment Camps, as they were actually called. Some of the loudest
activists claim there were no convictions of any spy activities on the part
of Japanese-Americans, and some of the less-loud on the other side of the
debate claim that there were convictions of spying. It is logically unsound
to assume innocence or guilt of the complete population of
Japanese-Americans, just like anyone else. And of course this is not what
the thread is about at all, now is it? It's not about how the US certainly
didn't get into extermination at all, either.
Speaking of misinformation, how about those fake death threats the Cruise
camp cooked up? Do you think it's an effort to rein Katie in from having
too good a time in NYC? Or a buildup to Anonymous showing up at the
Valkyrie premiere on 21 January? Perhaps the cult thinks that the UK is as
much of a police state as the Prime Minister seems to want it to become.
There's been a police helicopter hovering over the Kensington Town Hall now
for nearly an hour. I didn't think those things carried that much fuel, for
all the engine feathering they're doing to show someone they're There.
Maybe they're performing surveillance on the empty house of the family of
that dangerous individual, Otis Ferry, who led a storm on the Commons as a
protest against the Labour 'government's campaign against Those People In
The Country.
There. That's better.
--
SP Goodman
Usually Right "Reverend" Norle Enturbulata DTS, OD KTC
*
http://www.youtube.com/Enturbulata
http://tinyurl.com/yre7c6
http://www.xenu.net
http://www.xenutv.com
http://www.scientology-lies.com
http://www.whyaretheydead.net
http://www.scientology-kills.org
*
" You can write that down in your book in great big letters. The only way
you can control anybody is to lie to them."
-- L. Ron Hubbard, "Technique 88"
*
"...Never discuss Scientology with the critic. Just discuss his or her
crimes, known and unknown. And act completely confident that those crimes
exist...."
- L. Ron Hubbard, "Critics of Scientology", November 5, 1967
*
"Rather than give psychotics such treatment it would be far kinder to kill
them immediately and completely..."
- L. Ron Hubbard, "Science of Survival", p117
*
"5. invalidation is force applied. You apply enough force to anybody and
you've invalidated him. How invalidated can he get? Dead!"
- Dianetics and Scientology Tech. Dictionary by L. Ron Hubbard
Tom Klemesrud
> tom...@netscape.delete.net:
>
>> It's nonsense to me that these upper-level Nazis--and they were
>> Nazis--didn't know the Jews were being exterminated.
>
> Go read some history books on the subject, don't make assumptions. Some
> knew more than others, most didn't want to know. To slap a 'Nazi' label on
> all of them is too simplistic.
Then with this dichotomy of those leading the Nazi war effort--the good
German Patriots, and the bad Nazis; which do you suspect of bombing and
shooting V1's at your country, Hartley? The good Germans, or the Nazis?
A mix of the two?
> Evil doesn't work like that.
Evil works to hide itself with apologetics.
Tom Klemesrud
> On Dec 28, 5:49 am, Hartley Patterson <hptt...@daisy.freeserve.co.uk>
> wrote:
>> tomk...@netscape.delete.net:
>>
>>> It's nonsense to me that these upper-level Nazis--and they were
>>> Nazis--didn't know the Jews were being exterminated.
>> Go read some history books on the subject, don't make assumptions. Some
>> knew more than others, most didn't want to know.
>
> Hey, the US had its own concentration camps (euphemistically called
> "relocation camps") for citizens during WW II.
> www.english.uiuc.edu/maps/poets/g_l/haiku/camps.htm
>
> It's worth noting that the Germans didn't really get into
> extermination until 1942, and the camps were pretty much off limits to
> the public and most of the military. The worst death camps, including
> Auschwitz-Birkenau, weren't in Germany but Poland. So it's likely that
> few of these people knew what was really going on there. They could
> have easily dismissed any rumors they heard.
So you are saying the good Germans like von Stauffenberg, with his
ability to get a bomb past the Waffen SS, and place it right at Hitler's
feet, hijack "Project Valkyrie" to take control of the government;
somehow lacked the intelligence of what the SS did with 6 million
misplaced Jews?
Hartley Patterson
> There's been a police helicopter hovering over the Kensington Town Hall now
> for nearly an hour.
A black helicopter? I get them quite often in the summer, wandering about
the valley to no apparent purpose. Then when they leave Richard Branson's
airship comes over at night, doing a passable imitation of a UFO with a
lawn mower engine.
Barbara Schwarz
> On Dec 27, 4:48 pm,BarbaraSchwarz<BarbaraSchwarz2...@excite.com>
> wrote:
>
> > On Dec 27, 6:40 pm,BarbaraSchwarz<BarbaraSchwarz2...@excite.com>
> > wrote:
> > P.S. You, Tom Klemensrude don't get it either. The German secret
> > service changed L. Ron Hubbard's Scientology through their
> > infiltrators.
> > Whatever happened within the orgs that wasn't absolutely good is not
> > Scientology but German set ups.
> > I know, because I myself experienced the infiltration.
> >BarbaraSchwarz
>
> Ooooohhhh. Sounds sexy.
> Any pics????
You are a disturbed guy.
Barbara Schwarz
Eldon
> Eldon wrote:
> > On Dec 28, 5:49 am, Hartley Patterson <hptt...@daisy.freeserve.co.uk>
> > wrote:
> >> tomk...@netscape.delete.net:
>
> >>> It's nonsense to me that these upper-level Nazis--and they were
> >>> Nazis--didn't know the Jews were being exterminated.
> >> Go read some history books on the subject, don't make assumptions. Some
> >> knew more than others, most didn't want to know.
>
> > Hey, the US had its own concentration camps (euphemistically called
> > "relocation camps") for citizens during WW II.
> >www.english.uiuc.edu/maps/poets/g_l/haiku/camps.htm
>
> > It's worth noting that the Germans didn't really get into
> > extermination until 1942, and the camps were pretty much off limits to
> > the public and most of the military. The worst death camps, including
> > Auschwitz-Birkenau, weren't in Germany but Poland. So it's likely that
> > few of these people knew what was really going on there. They could
> > have easily dismissed any rumors they heard.
>
> So you are saying the good Germans like von Stauffenberg, with his
> ability to get a bomb past the Waffen SS, and place it right at Hitler's
> feet, hijack "Project Valkyrie" to take control of the government;
> somehow lacked the intelligence of what the SS did with 6 million
> misplaced Jews?
Or maybe Displaced Jews shipped off to work camps in Poland. But I
didn't call him and his coterie "good Germans." They were patriotic
enough, but the national ethos was pretty bent at the time.
Just as a point of of reference, why don't you go ask Tom Cruise and
Kirstie Alley if they know that Scientology's RPF is actually run as a
slave labor camp with its inmates subject to various forms of inhumane
treatment and deprivation?
What the do you think they'll say?
Barbara Schwarz
> Hartley Patterson wrote:
> > tomk...@netscape.delete.net quoted:
All the Nazis knew that Jews and other minorities were killed.
Stauffenberg supported Hitler all the way. He "turned around" when he
understood that the Third Reich will be defeated. That is not a hero.
Barbara Schwarz
Barbara Schwarz
wrote:
> tomk...@netscape.delete.net:
>
> > It's nonsense to me that these upper-level Nazis--and they were
> > Nazis--didn't know the Jews were being exterminated.
>
> Go
Hartley Patterson, stop defaming me all over the Internet. If you have
mental problems, handle them but do not lie that I have your mental
problems.
Get a life and stop behaving like a psych controlled Nazi.
Barbara Schwarz
Hartley Patterson
> Then with this dichotomy of those leading the Nazi war effort--the good
> German Patriots, and the bad Nazis; which do you suspect of bombing and
> shooting V1's at your country, Hartley? The good Germans, or the Nazis?
The Nazis were a political party. Joining the Party in a totalitarian
state like Soviet Russia or modern China is what you do to get on,
especially if you don't do politics or ethics or morality.
That's what evil does. It doesn't divide people into good and bad and then
try to convert the good guys into bad ones, it slimes its way into our
lives without us noticing, corrupts us, compromises us, causes dissent and
disruption. If we could spot it easily and avoid it - well there wouldn't
be a Church of Scientology for a start.
Barbara Schwarz
> On Dec 28, 5:49 am, Hartley Patterson <hptt...@daisy.freeserve.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
> > tomk...@netscape.delete.net:
>
> > > It's nonsense to me that these upper-level Nazis--and they were
> > > Nazis--didn't know the Jews were being exterminated.
>
> > Go read some history books on the subject, don't make assumptions. Some
> > knew more than others, most didn't want to know.
>
> Hey, the US had its own concentration camps (euphemistically called
> "relocation camps") for citizens during WW II.www.english.uiuc.edu/maps/poets/g_l/haiku/camps.htm
A Nazi-p$ych infiltrated U.S. government makes bad things happen.
Anyway, unlike Eldon, I lived in Germany, and knew many people who
lived through the Third Reich. They knew of the exterminations.
It is ridiculous to imply that Stauffenberg didn't knew. He changed
very late to be anti-Hitler, likely not because he suddenly turned
human but afraid that the Allies would kick his behind. What a "hero".
And Eldon impresses me just as little.
Barbara Schwarz
Barbara Schwarz
wrote:
> Hartley Patterson wrote:
> > tomk...@netscape.delete.net:
There is no good Nazi. If Stauffenberg were a good man, he never would
have worked for Hitler (and he men behind him) in the first place.
Period.
Barbara Schwarz
Eldon
<notearthligh...@nothotmail.com> wrote:
> "Eldon" <EldonB...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1ce3c7e1-24e3-4410...@l33g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > On Dec 28, 5:49 am, Hartley Patterson <hptt...@daisy.freeserve.co.uk>
> > wrote:
> >> tomk...@netscape.delete.net:
>
> >> > It's nonsense to me that these upper-level Nazis--and they were
> >> > Nazis--didn't know the Jews were being exterminated.
>
> >> Go read some history books on the subject, don't make assumptions. Some
> >> knew more than others, most didn't want to know.
>
> > Hey, the US had its own concentration camps (euphemistically called
> > "relocation camps") for citizens during WW II.
> >www.english.uiuc.edu/maps/poets/g_l/haiku/camps.htm
>
> > It's worth noting that the Germans didn't really get into
> > extermination until 1942,
>
> There are mixed reviews from historians about the minuses and pluses of the
> US Internment Camps, as they were actually called. Some of the loudest
> activists claim there were no convictions of any spy activities on the part
> of Japanese-Americans, and some of the less-loud on the other side of the
> debate claim that there were convictions of spying. It is logically unsound
> to assume innocence or guilt of the complete population of
> Japanese-Americans, just like anyone else. And of course this is not what
> the thread is about at all, now is it? It's not about how the US certainly
> didn't get into extermination at all, either.
Well yes, that is tangentially what this thread is about, at least by
a pretty direct analogy. It doesn't matter what the Japanese camps
were called, or whether there were a few Japanese spies in Hawaii. The
initiative was based on the same rationale used as an excuse for
sequestering Jews in Europe; surely some were Communists reporting
home to Russia as well as subverting the German state. So let's round
'em up!
>
> Speaking of misinformation, how about those fake death threats the Cruise
> camp cooked up?
I think there were a few genuine death threats; celebrities always get
some from deranged people. I find it interesting that Scientology
feels it necessary to continue coming off with ridiculous, alarmist
bullshit. Just goes to show that Anonymous is pretty effective
overall.
> Do you think it's an effort to rein Katie in from having
> too good a time in NYC? Or a buildup to Anonymous showing up at the
> Valkyrie premiere on 21 January? Perhaps the cult thinks that the UK is as
> much of a police state as the Prime Minister seems to want it to become.
> There's been a police helicopter hovering over the Kensington Town Hall now
> for nearly an hour. I didn't think those things carried that much fuel, for
> all the engine feathering they're doing to show someone they're There.
> Maybe they're performing surveillance on the empty house of the family of
> that dangerous individual, Otis Ferry, who led a storm on the Commons as a
> protest against the Labour 'government's campaign against Those People In
> The Country.
>
> There. That's better.
>
> --
> SP Goodman
> Usually Right "Reverend" Norle Enturbulata DTS, OD KTC
unsurrea...@yahoo.com
wrote:
Mental problems? LOLOLOL. He's not claiming most people have ear
implants. But someone else is...hmmm...that would be YOU.
Barbara Schwarz
wrote:
> Eldon wrote:
> > On Dec 28, 5:49 am, Hartley Patterson <hptt...@daisy.freeserve.co.uk>
> > wrote:
> >> tomk...@netscape.delete.net:
Stauffenberg was a Nazi. He was not good. He decided to get rid of
Hitler when he noticed that the Nazis will lose the war. I don't think
that he would have opposed Hitler if he would not have noticed that
Germany will be defeated. He just went with the flow in an attempt to
save his own skin.
His attempt to get rid of Hitler also failed.
I am so "impressed" of this "hero".
Barbara Schwarz
Eldon
wrote:
> tomk...@netscape.delete.net:
>
> > Then with this dichotomy of those leading the Nazi war effort--the good
> > German Patriots, and the bad Nazis; which do you suspect of bombing and
> > shooting V1's at your country, Hartley? The good Germans, or the Nazis?
>
> The Nazis were a political party. Joining the Party in a totalitarian
> state like Soviet Russia or modern China is what you do to get on,
> especially if you don't do politics or ethics or morality.
>
> That's what evil does. It doesn't divide people into good and bad and then
> try to convert the good guys into bad ones, it slimes its way into our
> lives without us noticing, corrupts us, compromises us, causes dissent and
> disruption. If we could spot it easily and avoid it - well there wouldn't
> be a Church of Scientology for a start.
That's an intelligent, succinct and eloquent description of the
phenomenon.
Heil Hartley!
Barbara Schwarz
infiltration, it is possible that the Germany decided not to outlaw
Scientology because of this Nazi-friendly Tom Cruise movie.
The Sueddeutsche Zeitung is celebrating this movie. It does a
wonderful job in rehabilitating Germany's Nazi reputation, they
wrote.
It really creeps me out.
Again, Stauffenberg supported Hitler's insane system and ideology for
many years and just turned around when he noticed that Germany will be
defeated. That is still a Nazi.
I really are scratching my head here. Scientologists know that not the
Nazis needed the psychiatrists but the psychs needed the Nazis. They
know that the Nazis and Hitler were brought into power by p$ychs.
But instead of documentaries and movies about these facts, we see one
that is Nazi-friendly and helps the Germans to recover from their Nazi-
past, DESPITE THAT THEY ARE STILL BEHAVING LIKE NAZIS TO
SCIENTOLOGISTS!
What is going on? I am the only one thinking here or what?
Barbara Schwarz
Tom Klemesrud
> tom...@netscape.delete.net:
>
>> Then with this dichotomy of those leading the Nazi war effort--the good
>> German Patriots, and the bad Nazis; which do you suspect of bombing and
>> shooting V1's at your country, Hartley? The good Germans, or the Nazis?
>
> The Nazis were a political party. Joining the Party in a totalitarian
> state like Soviet Russia or modern China is what you do to get on,
> especially if you don't do politics or ethics or morality.
I could have swore I read the dictatorship of Adolph Hitler was called
"Nazi Germany" and inclusive for everyone there--except of course, the
Jews, not mentioned in the film.
>
> That's what evil does. It doesn't divide people into good and bad and then
> try to convert the good guys into bad ones, it slimes its way into our
> lives without us noticing, corrupts us, compromises us, causes dissent and
> disruption. If we could spot it easily and avoid it - well there wouldn't
> be a Church of Scientology for a start.
>
If a person wears a Sea Organization uniform, engages in the war on Wogs
to "clear the planet" for Scientology to "expand into", then I would
call that person a Scientologist; even if they might have made threats
against their Goebbels or their Hitler. I would look at that as a
simple attempt to take power by the insurgent Scientologists.
"Rev" Norle Enturbulata, OD, DTS
"Hartley Patterson" <hpt...@daisy.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:MPG.23c1eeca9...@news.thundernews.com...
> noteart...@nothotmail.com:
>
>> There's been a police helicopter hovering over the Kensington Town Hall
>> now
>> for nearly an hour.
>
> A black helicopter? I get them quite often in the summer, wandering about
> the valley to no apparent purpose. Then when they leave Richard Branson's
> airship comes over at night, doing a passable imitation of a UFO with a
> lawn mower engine.
Turns out it was the Israeli Embassy, over by Kensington Gardens. Who'd
have thought someone would protest their use of drone missiles against
mainly rock-throwing people?
"Rev" Norle Enturbulata, OD, DTS
Ah, there's a difference between interning people because of an absence of
information and trust, and deciding to exterminate people because they're
declared by the government to be inferior.
; surely some were Communists reporting
> home to Russia as well as subverting the German state. So let's round
> 'em up!
Which wasn't the main reason in the least.
Hartley Patterson
> I could have swore I read the dictatorship of Adolph Hitler was called
> "Nazi Germany" and inclusive for everyone there--except of course, the
> Jews, not mentioned in the film.
'Nazi' is short for National Socialist Party, the political party that
Hitler founded. Fascism is a wider term for that political philosophy. Not
everyone in Germany was a member or supported the nasty side of Nazism,
any more than every Russian was a Communist.
I'm not even going to *start* on the 5 million non-Jews killed in the
camps and elsewhere that you are ignoring. You need to read some up to
date history on the period and on Germany - try Wikipedia for references.
Hartley Patterson
> Turns out it was the Israeli Embassy, over by Kensington Gardens. Who'd
> have thought someone would protest their use of drone missiles against
> mainly rock-throwing people?
Mainly unguided rocket firing these days - rocks don't reach across
borders. Didn't think the Israelis had drones, the news reports said F-
15s. In any case when ever martyr generates several more, utterly
pointless.
Hartley Patterson
> Ah, there's a difference between interning people because of an absence of
> information and trust, and deciding to exterminate people because they're
> declared by the government to be inferior.
It happened in the UK too. All German nationals were rounded up and sent
to the Isle of Man, between Ireland and Britain. Most were refugees from
the Nazis, including one of my schoolteachers. It was a pragmatic and
sensible move that protected them from idiots who thought Germans not the
Nazis were the enemy and it left any actual German spies more exposed.
Tom Klemesrud
> tom...@netscape.delete.net:
>
>> I could have swore I read the dictatorship of Adolph Hitler was called
>> "Nazi Germany" and inclusive for everyone there--except of course, the
>> Jews, not mentioned in the film.
>
> 'Nazi' is short for National Socialist Party, the political party that
> Hitler founded. Fascism is a wider term for that political philosophy. Not
> everyone in Germany was a member or supported the nasty side of Nazism,
> any more than every Russian was a Communist.
Then for Stauffenberg to save Germany, all he had to do was to get the
good German people to vote this political party out of power. I see, it
was a matter like the Democrats verses the Republicans here in the
states. Couldn't Stauffenberg get enough votes? (Of course this
"political party" dealt out the death penalty for not giving the nazi
salute, among many other acts of dissent.)
There is a statue in Germany of a naked man with his hands bound, in
tribute to all the reluctant Nazis in Germany that were deprived of
their civil rights and made to commit atrocities, after forced to take
an oath of loyalty to Hitler himself, or risk high treason; but,
reluctant Nazis or not, every one in a uniform carrying on the will of
Hitler, is, alas, a Nazi.
Valkyrie, in my opinion, is Nazi apologia, selected by Tom Cruise to
ingratiate himself with the German People--people who can only look back
at this insurgent group in the war, with a sense of national pride.
Cruise injects himself right in the middle of this pride--for
Scientology's benefit.
Stauffenberg was well aware of the plight of the Jews. One of the
conspirators overheard participants of these acts talk about it on a
commuter train. Stauffenberg was repulsed by it. But, the filmmakers
thought better of putting anything about this in the film--putting it in
would have lessened the ingratiation factor for Cruise, and his
Scientology cult.
Germany is a large concern for Cruise. After all, he badgered U.S.
Under Secretary of State, Richard Armitage, until he got a personal
audience with him at Armitage's office in Washington D.C., at which time
Cruise is said to have complained that the Germans are reluctant to
accept Scientology, and could the State Department do something about it.
Maybe the Germans see Scientologists as that striped-naked man with his
hands bound, and they just don't want to go down that path again?
>
> I'm not even going to *start* on the 5 million non-Jews killed in the
> camps and elsewhere that you are ignoring. You need to read some up to
> date history on the period and on Germany - try Wikipedia for references.
>
I've actually learned about it from German professors at Wartburg
College, that were witness to many of these events personally.
Eldon
Yes, there certainly is.
>
> ; surely some were Communists reporting
>
> > home to Russia as well as subverting the German state. So let's round
> > 'em up!
>
> Which wasn't the main reason in the least.
No, it wasn't the main underlying reason. But it was one of the
"acceptable truths" that could be fed to the German public without
alarming them too much. The SS might have run into some resistance had
they initially announced, "We're going to exterminate every Jew we can
get our hands on!"
BTW, did you know that the Nazi eugenics laws were originally modeled
after those of California?
> >> *http://www.youtube.com/Enturbulatahttp://tinyurl.com/yre7c6http://www...
Hartley Patterson
> That's an intelligent, succinct and eloquent description of the
> phenomenon.
Not my idea - see Genesis Chapter 1!
"Rev" Norle Enturbulata, OD, DTS
> noteart...@nothotmail.com:
>
>> Ah, there's a difference between interning people because of an absence
>> of
>> information and trust, and deciding to exterminate people because they're
>> declared by the government to be inferior.
>
> It happened in the UK too. All German nationals were rounded up and sent
> to the Isle of Man, between Ireland and Britain. Most were refugees from
> the Nazis, including one of my schoolteachers. It was a pragmatic and
> sensible move that protected them from idiots who thought Germans not the
> Nazis were the enemy and it left any actual German spies more exposed.
Yes, but you're showing a safety or security-oriented reason there, as was
the case in the US. I think the comparison with this and the plights of
Jews and Armenians at the hands of Nazis or Russians is repeatedly specious.
Eldon
<notearthligh...@nothotmail.com> wrote:
> "Hartley Patterson" <hptt...@daisy.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
>
> news:MPG.23c264e9a...@news.thundernews.com...
>
> > notearthligh...@nothotmail.com:
>
> >> Ah, there's a difference between interning people because of an absence
> >> of
> >> information and trust, and deciding to exterminate people because they're
> >> declared by the government to be inferior.
>
> > It happened in the UK too. All German nationals were rounded up and sent
> > to the Isle of Man, between Ireland and Britain. Most were refugees from
> > the Nazis, including one of my schoolteachers. It was a pragmatic and
> > sensible move that protected them from idiots who thought Germans not the
> > Nazis were the enemy and it left any actual German spies more exposed.
>
> Yes, but you're showing a safety or security-oriented reason there, as was
> the case in the US. I think the comparison with this and the plights of
> Jews and Armenians at the hands of Nazis or Russians is repeatedly specious.
The outcome only depends on the motives of those doing the interning,
concentrating, imprisonment, or whatever you want to call it. But the
rationale presented to the public at large was pretty much the same in
all those cases --which was my point to begin with.
"Rev" Norle Enturbulata, OD, DTS
Got any examples of posters from the US making Japanese out to be animals
and a denigration to society, as was done in Germany about the "Juden"?
"Bugs Nips the Nips" is not sufficient.
Eldon
<notearthligh...@nothotmail.com> wrote:
> "Eldon" <EldonB...@aol.com> wrote in message
I don't really have the time or inclination to do this research for
you, and if I did, I'm sure it wouldn't meet your unrevealed
specifications anyway.
Would you settle for some Coon Song lyrics instead?
>
> --
> SP Goodman
> Usually Right "Reverend" Norle Enturbulata DTS, OD KTC
Hartley Patterson
> tom...@netscape.delete.net quoted:
>
> > "I'm concerned that Valkyrie could represent a new trend in filmmaking:
> > Nazi apologia. Not once in Valkyrie do any of the 'heroes' mention
> > what's happening around them. Hitler has systemically killed millions,"
> > said Friedman.
I've just watched the first couple of minutes of the film thanks to the
link to a pirate copy Fred Durks posted. In his opening monologue Cruise's
character gives the atrocities including "the mass execution of Jews" as
THE justification for his actions. It is preceded by the German Army Oath
of Loyalty, thereby setting out the central ethical dilemma of the story.
My mistake for assuming that movie critics actually watch movies. What was
he doing - still buying his popcorn in the foyer?
"Rev" Norle Enturbulata, OD, DTS
Shame, you seemed to have such conviction it would appear you had the docs
right there, or hovering on the top of your mind.
Eldon
wrote:
> hptt...@daisy.freeserve.co.uk:
>
> > tomk...@netscape.delete.net quoted:
>
> > > "I'm concerned that Valkyrie could represent a new trend in filmmaking:
> > > Nazi apologia. Not once in Valkyrie do any of the 'heroes' mention
> > > what's happening around them. Hitler has systemically killed millions,"
> > > said Friedman.
>
> I've just watched the first couple of minutes of the film thanks to the
> link to a pirate copy Fred Durks posted. In his opening monologue Cruise's
> character gives the atrocities including "the mass execution of Jews" as
> THE justification for his actions. It is preceded by the German Army Oath
> of Loyalty, thereby setting out the central ethical dilemma of the story.
Yeah, it was there at the beginning, but it went by pretty fast. Easy
to miss.
>
> My mistake for assuming that movie critics actually watch movies. What was
> he doing - still buying his popcorn in the foyer?
Or maybe snorting cocaine in the restroom -- who knows?
>
> Hartley Pattersonhttp://www.newsfrombree.co.uk/http://news-from-bree.blogspot.com
Eldon
You mean Coon Song lyrics? Yeah, I can find some on the Internet if I
do a search.
But *such* conviction... of what? You demanded archival propaganda
posters out of the blue for some strange reason. I was talking about
sociological principles and political messages. On that note, how
about if I just tell you to go fuck yourself? That should save us both
some time.
> >> --
> >> SP Goodman
> >> Usually Right "Reverend" Norle Enturbulata DTS, OD KTC
> >> *http://www.youtube.com/Enturbulatahttp://tinyurl.com/yre7c6http://www...
"Rev" Norle Enturbulata, OD, DTS
How evasive! "Conviction" in the sense of your own self-righteous
definition of Being Right, of course.
Your abusive, basically-obscene non-answer is an unfortunate coda by
yourself, and nobody else.
--
SP Goodman
Usually Right "Reverend" Norle Enturbulata DTS, OD KTC
*
http://www.youtube.com/Enturbulata
http://tinyurl.com/yre7c6
http://www.xenu.net
http://www.xenutv.com
http://www.scientology-lies.com
http://www.whyaretheydead.net
http://www.scientology-kills.org
Keshet
(noteart...@nothotmail.com) wrote in <gjaroh$stf$1...@news.motzarella.org>:
<snip>
> Got any examples of posters from the US making Japanese out to be animals
> and a denigration to society, as was done in Germany about the "Juden"?
>
> "Bugs Nips the Nips" is not sufficient.
<http://mason.gmu.edu/~jboggs/hist697/designassignment.html>
<http://www.bookmice.net/darkchilde/japan/posters.html>
<http://www.ww2homefront.com/junkie9.html>
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Japanese_sentiment>
Keshet
--
x0h04rv02(at)sneakemail.com * http://solitarytrees.net/racism/
Where prejudice exists it always discolors our thoughts -MT
"Rev" Norle Enturbulata, OD, DTS
"Keshet" <x0h0...@sneakemail.invalid> wrote in message
news:slrnglkdbj.u...@shell.dhp.com...
> on Mon, 29 Dec 2008 15:52:37 -0000, \"Rev\" Norle Enturbulata, OD, DTS
> (noteart...@nothotmail.com) wrote in
> <gjaroh$stf$1...@news.motzarella.org>:
>
> <snip>
>
> > Got any examples of posters from the US making Japanese out to be
> animals
> > and a denigration to society, as was done in Germany about the "Juden"?
> >
> > "Bugs Nips the Nips" is not sufficient.
>
> <http://mason.gmu.edu/~jboggs/hist697/designassignment.html>
> <http://www.bookmice.net/darkchilde/japan/posters.html>
> <http://www.ww2homefront.com/junkie9.html>
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Japanese_sentiment>
>
And I'm still looking for something put up in the streets by the US
Government that does something similar. I'm not sure the above material
holds up to outright accusations of Jews BEING animals, and of course the
Germans weren't attacked by Jews either, now, were they? Comparisons
offered are still not valid to the gist of this argument, that has still not
shown how the efforts on the part of companies potentially funded by the US
Government, and individuals, are the same as the posters Nazis put up about
the "Juden".
Keshet
(noteart...@nothotmail.com) wrote in <gjdhth$9v$1...@news.motzarella.org>:
>
> "Keshet" <x0h0...@sneakemail.invalid> wrote in message
> news:slrnglkdbj.u...@shell.dhp.com...
> > on Mon, 29 Dec 2008 15:52:37 -0000, \"Rev\" Norle Enturbulata, OD, DTS
> > (noteart...@nothotmail.com) wrote in
> > <gjaroh$stf$1...@news.motzarella.org>:
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > > Got any examples of posters from the US making Japanese out to be
> > animals
> > > and a denigration to society, as was done in Germany about the "Juden"?
> > >
> > > "Bugs Nips the Nips" is not sufficient.
> >
> > <http://mason.gmu.edu/~jboggs/hist697/designassignment.html>
> > <http://www.bookmice.net/darkchilde/japan/posters.html>
> > <http://www.ww2homefront.com/junkie9.html>
> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Japanese_sentiment>
> >
>
> And I'm still looking for something put up in the streets by the US
> Government that does something similar.
I'm confused. Similar to what? I thought you wanted government
posters that made the Japanese look like animals, like the Nazi
(German government) posters did for the Jews.
>I'm not sure the above material
> holds up to outright accusations of Jews BEING animals, and of course the
Then you didn't look at the above material because it is about the
Japanese, not Jews. There are several posters depicting Japanese as
rats or snakes, if you're being literal.
> Germans weren't attacked by Jews either, now, were they?
Americans weren't attacked by Issei or Nisei either, now, were they?
>Comparisons
> offered are still not valid to the gist of this argument, that has still not
> shown how the efforts on the part of companies potentially funded by the US
> Government, and individuals, are the same as the posters Nazis put up about
> the "Juden".
I'm sorry, I don't understand what you're saying here. What is the
gist of this argument? I thought it was U.S. propaganda that made
the Japanese look like animals. What companies are you talking about?
From <http://mason.gmu.edu/~jboggs/hist697/designassignment.html>
"The increase in anti-Japanese propaganda--in comic strips, animated
cartoons, posters, and magazines--makes it apparent that 'open
season' had indeed been declared on anyone of Japanese descent.
Thus, while the U.S. fought a war with Japan in the Pacific, the
U.S. also fought a war on the homefront against anyone who 'looked'
or 'acted' Japanese. The ammunition for the homefront war, however,
involved distorted images and broad, unabashedly racist
characterizations."
As most of the posters at the sites I provided are government
issues, obviously it is the U.S. Government who was inciting
Americans to hate all Japanese, even U.S. citizens of Japanese
ancestry.
Skipper
Regarding something actually relevant to the group, how about Elwrong's
snickering use of the term "wog"? He convinced himself and others that
he'd been Cecil Rhodes in a former life, going so far as to have a
picture taken of himself standing on Rhodes grave, only to abandon the
conceit when someone pointed out that Rhodes was homosexual.
Until then, Elwrong assumed he was a reincarnated member of the English
"elite" that lorded over India during the Raj. And he happily
indoctrinated any $cientologist who would buy into the sneering idea
that non-$cientologists were "wogs" and therefore barely above animal.
Eldon
Hey, why don't you go research Nazi research on the genetic frailties
of the Japanese with regards to their value as Axis allies and get
back to me? Thanks a lot for spending the time to do that.
>
> Your abusive, basically-obscene non-answer is an unfortunate coda by
> yourself, and nobody else.
Well, why don't you just try to go fuck yourself and tell us all
whether you enjoyed it or found it limiting or whatever? Maybe take a
weekend trip to Berlin for the experiment and tour a few museums while
you're at it?
You are so fucking tedious on this topic that I can't believe it. In
the past, I thought you occasionally had something interesting to
say.
> SP Goodman
> Usually Right "Reverend" Norle Enturbulata DTS, OD KTC
Eldon
> on Tue, 30 Dec 2008 16:22:55 -0000, \"Rev\" Norle Enturbulata, OD, DTS
> >
> > "Keshet" <x0h04r...@sneakemail.invalid> wrote in message
> >news:slrnglkdbj.u...@shell.dhp.com...
> > > on Mon, 29 Dec 2008 15:52:37 -0000, \"Rev\" Norle Enturbulata, OD, DTS
> > > <gjaroh$st...@news.motzarella.org>:
> > >
> > > <snip>
> > >
> > > > Got any examples of posters from the US making Japanese out to be
> > > animals
> > > > and a denigration to society, as was done in Germany about the "Juden"?
> > > >
> > > > "Bugs Nips the Nips" is not sufficient.
> > >
> > > <http://mason.gmu.edu/~jboggs/hist697/designassignment.html>
> > > <http://www.bookmice.net/darkchilde/japan/posters.html>
> > > <http://www.ww2homefront.com/junkie9.html>
> > > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Japanese_sentiment>
> > >
> >
> > And I'm still looking for something put up in the streets by the US
> > Government that does something similar.
>
> I'm confused. Similar to what? I thought you wanted government
> posters that made the Japanese look like animals, like the Nazi
> (German government) posters did for the Jews.
Hey Keshet, thanks for finding this stuff. I simply didn't have the
patience, since knew he'd say "It's not good enough!" and demand more
gratuitous proof.
That's why I told him to go fuck himself, and am repeating that
advice.
> x0h04rv02(at)sneakemail.com *http://solitarytrees.net/racism/
Eldon
> >
> > "Keshet" <x0h04r...@sneakemail.invalid> wrote in message
> >news:slrnglkdbj.u...@shell.dhp.com...
> > > on Mon, 29 Dec 2008 15:52:37 -0000, \"Rev\" Norle Enturbulata, OD, DTS
> > > <gjaroh$st...@news.motzarella.org>:
I thought this one was really cute.
www.bookmice.net/darkchilde/japan/posters/ph5.jpg
So what if one substituted some Jewish motifs and translated the
poster into German? Ah, but that wouldn't count, would it?
>
> As most of the posters at the sites I provided are government
> issues, obviously it is the U.S. Government who was inciting
> Americans to hate all Japanese, even U.S. citizens of Japanese
> ancestry.
>
> Keshet
>
> --
> x0h04rv02(at)sneakemail.com *http://solitarytrees.net/racism/
"Rev" Norle Enturbulata, OD, DTS
It's difficult when you can't back yourself up, isn't it?
"Rev" Norle Enturbulata, OD, DTS
"Keshet" <x0h0...@sneakemail.invalid> wrote in message
> on Tue, 30 Dec 2008 16:22:55 -0000, \"Rev\" Norle Enturbulata, OD, DTS
> (noteart...@nothotmail.com) wrote in
> <gjdhth$9v$1...@news.motzarella.org>:
> >
> > "Keshet" <x0h0...@sneakemail.invalid> wrote in message
> > news:slrnglkdbj.u...@shell.dhp.com...
> > > on Mon, 29 Dec 2008 15:52:37 -0000, \"Rev\" Norle Enturbulata, OD,
> DTS
> > > (noteart...@nothotmail.com) wrote in
> > > <gjaroh$stf$1...@news.motzarella.org>:
> > >
> > > <snip>
> > >
> > > > Got any examples of posters from the US making Japanese out to be
> > > animals
> > > > and a denigration to society, as was done in Germany about the
> "Juden"?
> > > >
> > > > "Bugs Nips the Nips" is not sufficient.
> > >
> > > <http://mason.gmu.edu/~jboggs/hist697/designassignment.html>
> > > <http://www.bookmice.net/darkchilde/japan/posters.html>
> > > <http://www.ww2homefront.com/junkie9.html>
> > > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Japanese_sentiment>
> > >
> >
> > And I'm still looking for something put up in the streets by the US
> > Government that does something similar.
>
> I'm confused. Similar to what? I thought you wanted government
> posters that made the Japanese look like animals, like the Nazi
> (German government) posters did for the Jews.
There IS a difference between making someone look like an animal, and saying
they ARE one.
> >I'm not sure the above material
> > holds up to outright accusations of Jews BEING animals, and of course
> the
>
> Then you didn't look at the above material because it is about the
> Japanese, not Jews. There are several posters depicting Japanese as
> rats or snakes, if you're being literal.
Depictions, thankfully, aren't statements as if to appear to be fact.
> > Germans weren't attacked by Jews either, now, were they?
>
> Americans weren't attacked by Issei or Nisei either, now, were they?
Hm, dividing Japanese into classes, divisions, or locations doesn't compare
yet.
> >Comparisons
> > offered are still not valid to the gist of this argument, that has
> still not
> > shown how the efforts on the part of companies potentially funded by
> the US
> > Government, and individuals, are the same as the posters Nazis put up
> about
> > the "Juden".
>
> I'm sorry, I don't understand what you're saying here. What is the
> gist of this argument? I thought it was U.S. propaganda that made
> the Japanese look like animals. What companies are you talking about?
Defense contractors especially. What there seems to be a problem of
understanding here involves the difference between US 'wartime posters' and
those put up by the Nazis in Germany, before and after they assumed power in
government. One is a depiction for probable anti-demotivational /
war-effort-think. The other is more than a mere depiction of someone as an
animal, they were statements that a people WERE a sub-species. Isn't there
a difference?
> From <http://mason.gmu.edu/~jboggs/hist697/designassignment.html>
>
> "The increase in anti-Japanese propaganda--in comic strips, animated
> cartoons, posters, and magazines--makes it apparent that 'open
> season' had indeed been declared on anyone of Japanese descent.
> Thus, while the U.S. fought a war with Japan in the Pacific, the
> U.S. also fought a war on the homefront against anyone who 'looked'
> or 'acted' Japanese. The ammunition for the homefront war, however,
> involved distorted images and broad, unabashedly racist
> characterizations."
>
> As most of the posters at the sites I provided are government
> issues, obviously it is the U.S. Government who was inciting
> Americans to hate all Japanese, even U.S. citizens of Japanese
> ancestry.
By your assumption. It's so easy in a day and age quite removed from 1941
to assume quite a lot of crap based on the leftist opinions of academics.
Talk to people who were actually alive in the US during WWII. I'd say the
bombing at Pearl Harbor, the Bataan Death March, and known Japanese
vivisection of prisoners were pretty much motivators to hate the Japanese on
their own. Or do you also think that the Japanese were justified in their
actions, and those awful Americans were just Empire-hungry Industrialists
who deserved everything they got?
"Rev" Norle Enturbulata, OD, DTS
It still wouldn't say the same thing.
You have a humor deficiency, don't you?
Jockey full of Bourbon
wrote:
Taken from;
"The Mark Twain Encyclopedia" (Google Books; page 637)
snip>
Cecil Rhodes is featured recurrently in Twain's "Following the Equator"
(1897)
snip>
Rhodes's most important role in the text, however, comes in concluding
sections of the second volume, which, we know with certainty, were
required at the last minute to pad out an already finished work. Of
these, Twain wrote to henri Huttleston Rogers, his publisher. "I have
added 30,000 words. Part of it has been most enjoyable work to
me---chaffing Rhodes and making fun of his Jameson raid." And in the
text itself, albeit after a rather dubious late justification of the
relative benefits of law and stability promised by colonial rule around
the globe. Rhodes's own imperial person finally gets both
anti-colonialist barrels. Despite his geopolitical raiding, robbing, and
intriguing, observes Twain, "there he stands, to this day, upon his
dizzy summit under the dome of the sky, and apparent permanency, the
marvel of the time, the mystery of the age, an Archangel with wings to
half the world, Satan with a tail to the other half." He concludes: "I
admire him. I frankly confess it; and when his time comes -- I shall buy
a piece of the rope for a keepsake."
**
Rhodes wanted to expand the British Empire because he believed that the
Anglo-Saxon race was destined to greatness. In his last will and
testament, Rhodes said of the British, "I contend that we are the finest
race in the world and that the more of the world we inhabit the better
it is for the human race." He wanted to make the British Empire a
superpower in which all of the white countries in the empire, including
Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and Cape Colony, would be represented in
the British Parliament. Rhodes included Americans in the Rhodes
scholarships and said that he wanted to breed an American elite of
philosopher-kings who would have the USA rejoin the British Empire.
Rhodes also respected the Germans and admired the Kaiser, and allowed
Germans to be included in the Rhodes scholarships. He believed that
eventually Great Britain, the USA and Germany together would dominate
the world and ensure peace together".
Flint, John (November 1974). Cecil Rhodes.
Find a Grave:
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=2313
Cecil John Rhodes
Birth:
Jul. 5, 1853
Death:
Mar. 26, 1902
Imperialist, Entrepreneur, Colonialist.
Burial:
World's View Lookout
http://tinyurl.com/a7fee4
Matapos, Zimbabwe
Maintained by: Find A Grave
Record added: Jan 1 2001
Find A Grave Memorial >># 2313
**
Lafayette 'Cecil Rhodes' Hubbard:
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Library/Shelf/miller/rhodes.jpg
Beany and Cecil:
http://www.abumazin.net/pics/TV/super-cecil.jpg
snip>
Cecil's medallion reads: "HERO by Trade".
>Until then, Elwrong assumed he was a reincarnated member of the English
>"elite" that lorded over India during the Raj.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhodes-Milner_Round_Table_Groups
Round Table movement
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Society of the Elect
Some people believe that the Round Table Groups were connected to a
secret society called the Society of the Elect, which South African
diamond baron Cecil Rhodes is believed to have set up with similar
goals. Rhodes was believed by some to have formed this secret society in
his lifetime. Others believe that his project failed to attract
converts, and was stillborn at its inception. Rhodes first formalised
his idea with William T. Stead, editor of the Pall Mall Gazette, when he
and Stead agreed on the structure of the secret society. This proposed
secret society had an elaborate hierarchical structure, based on that of
the Jesuits, which comprised: at the top, the position of "General of
the Society"預 position modelled on the General of the Jesuits葉o be
occupied by Rhodes, with Stead and Lord Rothschild as his designated
successors; an executive committee called the "Junta of Three",
comprising Stead, Milner and Reginald Baliol Brett (Lord Esher); then a
"Circle of Initiates", consisting of a number of notables including
Cardinal Manning, Lord Arthur Balfour, Lord Albert Grey and Sir Harry
Johnston; and outside of this was the "Association of Helpers", the
broad mass of the Society. One of the puzzles surrounding this meeting
is whether the "Society of the Elect" actually came into being. Carroll
Quigley claims in Tragedy and Hope (1966) that Rhodes's "Society of the
Elect" was not only "formally established" in 1891, but also that its
"outer circle known as the 'Association of Helpers'" was "later
organised by Milner as the Round Table".
In several of his wills, Rhodes left money for the continuation of the
project. However in his later wills, Rhodes abandoned the idea and
instead concentrated on what became the Rhodes scholarships, which
enabled American, German and English Scholars to study for free at
Oxford University.
>And he happily
>indoctrinated any $cientologist who would buy into the sneering idea
>that non-$cientologists were "wogs" and therefore barely above animal.
Piltdown Man
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piltdown_Man
The fossil was sufficiently influential for Clarence Darrow to introduce
it as evidence in defense of Scopes during the Scopes Monkey Trial.
Darrow died in 1938, more than ten years before Piltdown Man was exposed
as a fraud. Scientology founder L. Ron Hubbard listed a mammal similar
to Piltdown Man as one of the ancestors of humanity in his book
Scientology: A History of Man and borrowed the Piltdown moniker. His
text states that "it is so named not because it is accurately the real
Piltdown Man, but because it has some similarity"; Piltdown Man would be
exposed as a hoax just months after the publication of Hubbard's book.
Piltdown man memorial stone.jpg/
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8f/Piltdown_man_memorial.jpg
Jockey full of Bourbon
[i need more than sherry]
//
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Skipper
It's not pretty watching Eldoom flail and fail.
Keshet
(noteart...@nothotmail.com) wrote in <gjdu4v$9ai$1...@news.motzarella.org>:
I will grant that few, if any, of the government posters use the
words "Japanese are animals" or "Japanese are sub-human", though
the pictures clearly convey that message. Racism's intent is to make
its targets "less than human", which these posters obviously do.
> > >I'm not sure the above material
> > > holds up to outright accusations of Jews BEING animals, and of course
> > the
> >
> > Then you didn't look at the above material because it is about the
> > Japanese, not Jews. There are several posters depicting Japanese as
> > rats or snakes, if you're being literal.
>
> Depictions, thankfully, aren't statements as if to appear to be fact.
If they're official government issue, why not?
> > > Germans weren't attacked by Jews either, now, were they?
> >
> > Americans weren't attacked by Issei or Nisei either, now, were they?
>
> Hm, dividing Japanese into classes, divisions, or locations doesn't compare
> yet.
Doesn't compare (to) what?
I was merely drawing a parallel to your comment by pointing out that
the Japanese Americans did not attack the U.S. and therefore, like
the Jews, did not deserve the government's propaganda. That was your
point about Germany and the Jews, wasn't it?
> > >Comparisons
> > > offered are still not valid to the gist of this argument, that has
> > still not
> > > shown how the efforts on the part of companies potentially funded by
> > the US
> > > Government, and individuals, are the same as the posters Nazis put up
> > about
> > > the "Juden".
> >
> > I'm sorry, I don't understand what you're saying here. What is the
> > gist of this argument? I thought it was U.S. propaganda that made
> > the Japanese look like animals. What companies are you talking about?
>
> Defense contractors especially. What there seems to be a problem of
> understanding here involves the difference between US 'wartime posters' and
> those put up by the Nazis in Germany, before and after they assumed power in
> government. One is a depiction for probable anti-demotivational /
> war-effort-think. The other is more than a mere depiction of someone as an
> animal, they were statements that a people WERE a sub-species. Isn't there
> a difference?
Yes, there is a difference between "Buy War Bonds" and "Jap Trap" (a
rat with a caricatured Japanese face approaching a big U.S. military
mouse trap). Why are we talking about motivational posters now?
> > From <http://mason.gmu.edu/~jboggs/hist697/designassignment.html>
> >
> > "The increase in anti-Japanese propaganda--in comic strips, animated
> > cartoons, posters, and magazines--makes it apparent that 'open
> > season' had indeed been declared on anyone of Japanese descent.
> > Thus, while the U.S. fought a war with Japan in the Pacific, the
> > U.S. also fought a war on the homefront against anyone who 'looked'
> > or 'acted' Japanese. The ammunition for the homefront war, however,
> > involved distorted images and broad, unabashedly racist
> > characterizations."
> >
> > As most of the posters at the sites I provided are government
> > issues, obviously it is the U.S. Government who was inciting
> > Americans to hate all Japanese, even U.S. citizens of Japanese
> > ancestry.
>
> By your assumption.
No, by the action of the U.S. Government in sending American
citizens to internment camps. Clearly the government made little
distinction between Japanese who were the enemy and Japanese who
were American citizens (if they did, please point out such posters).
As the L.A. Times said in 1942: "A viper is a viper, wherever the
egg is hatched--so a Japanese-American, born of Japanese parents,
grows up Japanese, not an American."
That is the trouble with racist propaganda: all "Japs" look alike.
>It's so easy in a day and age quite removed from 1941
> to assume quite a lot of crap based on the leftist opinions of academics.
Why do you assume academics are leftists, that their research is
crap, or that they are quite removed from the war? Google "Gordon
Prange". I may be wrong--and probably am--but you seem to be putting
forth the Scientological idea that unless you try something, you
can't know it.
> Talk to people who were actually alive in the US during WWII.
Why do you assume I have not? In fact, why do you assume that I did
not LIVE through WWII?
>I'd say the
> bombing at Pearl Harbor, the Bataan Death March, and known Japanese
> vivisection of prisoners were pretty much motivators to hate the Japanese on
To be sure, those events are inspiration for hating the enemy; they
are not reason to hate the Japanese Americans who did not support such
actions, much less participate in them. Even the Japanese Americans
of the 442nd Regimental Combat Team (one of the most decorated units
of the war) were detested--their homes were vandalized or destroyed
and their property stolen by the very people they were fighting for.
> their own. Or do you also think that the Japanese were justified in their
> actions, and those awful Americans were just Empire-hungry Industrialists
> who deserved everything they got?
Why do you assume that is the only choice?
"Rev" Norle Enturbulata, OD, DTS
"Keshet" <x0h0...@sneakemail.invalid> wrote in message
No need, since that's not what this extended, over-tired argument you're
extending is about.
> As the L.A. Times said in 1942: "A viper is a viper, wherever the
> egg is hatched--so a Japanese-American, born of Japanese parents,
> grows up Japanese, not an American."
>
> That is the trouble with racist propaganda: all "Japs" look alike.
To you perhaps. You keep leaving out that the posters-in-question are about
the Japanese - a real enemy of the US, giddit? - and not the
Japanese-Americans.
> >It's so easy in a day and age quite removed from 1941
> > to assume quite a lot of crap based on the leftist opinions of
> academics.
>
> Why do you assume academics are leftists, that their research is
> crap, or that they are quite removed from the war? Google "Gordon
> Prange". I may be wrong--and probably am--but you seem to be putting
> forth the Scientological idea that unless you try something, you
> can't know it.
The right-wingers I know who consider themselves intellectually superior to
others are just assholes, because they don't want to turn everyone into
miserable people like them. There's a difference, neh?
> > Talk to people who were actually alive in the US during WWII.
>
> Why do you assume I have not? In fact, why do you assume that I did
> not LIVE through WWII?
You're highly opinionated and either uninformed or senile, then.
> >I'd say the
> > bombing at Pearl Harbor, the Bataan Death March, and known Japanese
> > vivisection of prisoners were pretty much motivators to hate the
> Japanese on
> To be sure, those events are inspiration for hating the enemy; they
> are not reason to hate the Japanese Americans who did not support such
> actions, much less participate in them. Even the Japanese Americans
> of the 442nd Regimental Combat Team (one of the most decorated units
> of the war) were detested--their homes were vandalized or destroyed
> and their property stolen by the very people they were fighting for.
>
> > their own. Or do you also think that the Japanese were justified in
> their
> > actions, and those awful Americans were just Empire-hungry
> Industrialists
> > who deserved everything they got?
>
> Why do you assume that is the only choice?
I didn't. You do seem to want to take this tack, without wanting to appear
to do so, though.
Happy New Year anyway. You're not too late to hear some fun music.
http://radio.electro-music.com:8050/listen.pls
Keshet
(noteart...@nothotmail.com) wrote in <gjgm9q$os7$1...@news.motzarella.org>:
>
> "Keshet" <x0h0...@sneakemail.invalid> wrote in message
> news:slrnglnf3p.5...@shell.dhp.com...
> > on Tue, 30 Dec 2008 19:51:56 -0000, \"Rev\" Norle Enturbulata, OD, DTS
> > (noteart...@nothotmail.com) wrote in
> > <gjdu4v$9ai$1...@news.motzarella.org>:
> > >
> > > "Keshet" <x0h0...@sneakemail.invalid> wrote in message
> > > news:slrnglkm5o.v...@shell.dhp.com...
<big snip>
> > > > As most of the posters at the sites I provided are government
> > > > issues, obviously it is the U.S. Government who was inciting
> > > > Americans to hate all Japanese, even U.S. citizens of Japanese
> > > > ancestry.
> > >
> > > By your assumption.
> >
> > No, by the action of the U.S. Government in sending American
> > citizens to internment camps. Clearly the government made little
> > distinction between Japanese who were the enemy and Japanese who
> > were American citizens (if they did, please point out such posters).
>
> No need, since that's not what this extended, over-tired argument you're
> extending is about.
OK. Obviously you and I are on different wavelengths. Since it was I
who jumped into the middle of this thread without reading all of it,
it is probably my fault that I'm confused and can't follow your
arguments.
> > As the L.A. Times said in 1942: "A viper is a viper, wherever the
> > egg is hatched--so a Japanese-American, born of Japanese parents,
> > grows up Japanese, not an American."
> >
> > That is the trouble with racist propaganda: all "Japs" look alike.
>
> To you perhaps. You keep leaving out that the posters-in-question are about
> the Japanese - a real enemy of the US, giddit? - and not the
> Japanese-Americans.
I'm sorry but I do "giddit". I don't think you do, however. According
to the Wikipedia article about Japanese-American internment (link
below), the "United States had already classified all people of
Japanese ancestry as 'enemy aliens.'" I suppose you could argue that
they were not "a real enemy" because the government did not require
their immediate deaths, nonetheless, they were officially identified
as enemies.
The same article also says "that, because of their race, it was
impossible to determine the loyalty of Japanese Americans. The
original version ['Final Report: Japanese Evacuation from the West
Coast - 1942'] was so offensive -- even in the atmosphere of the
wartime 1940s -- that Bendetsen ordered all copies to be destroyed."
Official government stance: Japanese-Americans are untrustworthy
and "enemy aliens", i.e., the government made little distinction
between the enemy Japanese that our servicemen were fighting
overseas and the American citizens of Japanese ancestry living in
the U.S. "All 'Japs' look alike."
> > >It's so easy in a day and age quite removed from 1941
> > > to assume quite a lot of crap based on the leftist opinions of
> > academics.
> >
> > Why do you assume academics are leftists, that their research is
> > crap, or that they are quite removed from the war? Google "Gordon
> > Prange". I may be wrong--and probably am--but you seem to be putting
> > forth the Scientological idea that unless you try something, you
> > can't know it.
>
> The right-wingers I know who consider themselves intellectually superior to
> others are just assholes, because they don't want to turn everyone into
> miserable people like them. There's a difference, neh?
I swear, we speak different languages. I do not understand what you
are saying.
> > > Talk to people who were actually alive in the US during WWII.
> >
> > Why do you assume I have not? In fact, why do you assume that I did
> > not LIVE through WWII?
>
> You're highly opinionated and either uninformed or senile, then.
Thanks. First you assume that my knowledge is leftist crap "book
learning" with no personal knowledge and when I call your attention
to the baselessness of that assumption, you accuse me of being
opinionated (of course I am! you're not?!) and ignorant or senile.
Obviously you consider my opinions inconsequential but you keep
coming back so let me put an end to this: I am stupid and you are
smart. You win, OK?
> > >I'd say the
> > > bombing at Pearl Harbor, the Bataan Death March, and known Japanese
> > > vivisection of prisoners were pretty much motivators to hate the
> > Japanese on
> > To be sure, those events are inspiration for hating the enemy; they
> > are not reason to hate the Japanese Americans who did not support such
> > actions, much less participate in them. Even the Japanese Americans
> > of the 442nd Regimental Combat Team (one of the most decorated units
> > of the war) were detested--their homes were vandalized or destroyed
> > and their property stolen by the very people they were fighting for.
> >
> > > their own. Or do you also think that the Japanese were justified in
> > their
> > > actions, and those awful Americans were just Empire-hungry
> > Industrialists
> > > who deserved everything they got?
> >
> > Why do you assume that is the only choice?
>
> I didn't. You do seem to want to take this tack, without wanting to appear
> to do so, though.
You did not ask what I thought, you offered that particular choice
and no other. There is no body language, voice inflection, or facial
expressions to clue me in to your intended meaning so I depend upon
the words you use (and don't use).
> Happy New Year anyway. You're not too late to hear some fun music.
> http://radio.electro-music.com:8050/listen.pls
Thank you. To you, too. Apologies for jumping into this thread where
my assistance and insight were not wanted.
Eldon
> on Wed, 31 Dec 2008 20:56:23 -0000, \"Rev\" Norle Enturbulata, OD, DTS
> >
> > "Keshet" <x0h04r...@sneakemail.invalid> wrote in message
> >news:slrnglnf3p.5...@shell.dhp.com...
> > > on Tue, 30 Dec 2008 19:51:56 -0000, \"Rev\" Norle Enturbulata, OD, DTS
> > > <gjdu4v$9a...@news.motzarella.org>:
> > > >
> > > > "Keshet" <x0h04r...@sneakemail.invalid> wrote in message
Hey, I'm sure glad you jumped in. I didn't have the time or patience
to deal with his nonsensical research assignments. Besides, this
entire thread is pretty well moot, since the screenwriters did toss in
a line for Tom Cruise right at the middle bemoaning the "mass
execution of Jews." It slid past quickly, but it was there to belie
the reviewer's dumb comment that started this in the first place.
>
> Keshet
>
> --
> x0h04rv02(at)sneakemail.com *http://solitarytrees.net/racism/