Demand for Refund
Caroline Letkeman
104-9275 Mary Street
Chilliwack, B.C., Canada V2P 4H5
caro...@telus.net
November 13, 2001
David Miscavige
Religious Technology Center
1710 Ivar Avenue, Suite 1100
Los Angeles, California 90028
E-Mail: in...@scientology.net (Please forward)
Dear Mr. Miscavige:
This is a request for a refund of all money I paid any Scientology
organization or entity for any service from 1975 to the present.
According to my calculations, I paid a total of $61,500 to your
organizations, as follows:
Church of Scientology of British Columbia (1975-2001)...CDN
$10,225/USD $7,000
American Saint Hill Organization (ASHO) (1978-2001)...USD $2,000
Foothills Mission (ca 1985)...USD $500
Flag Service Organization (1988-2001)...USD $50,000
International Association of Scientologists (IAS) - 2001)...USD
$2,000 (Lifetime Membership)
Total...USD $61,500
According to L. Ron Hubbard's policy, it is command intention to
"promptly and immediately cause to be refunded every penny of the
money paid by any person who was dissatisfied with his or her
processing." -- HCO PL 23 October 1963 REFUND POLICY © 1963 L. Ron
Hubbard
This refund policy was broadened by Hubbard to apply to not just
processing, but to all Scientology services. He wrote, e.g., "No
refund may be applied for successfully after three months from the end
of the last service rendered." -- HCO PL 1 August 1966 REFUND
ADDITION © 1966 L. Ron Hubbard.
I am completely dissatisfied with all services I have ever taken in
Scientology, and wish to let this letter serve as my demand for a full
and complete refund. My last service was at the Vancouver
Organization (CSBC) on Sunday, November 11, 2001.
Included in the table above is an entry in the amount of $2,000 for
IAS Lifetime Membership. I recognize that the IAS membership is not
a "service;" nevertheless, I believe a refund of the full amount I
paid for such "Lifetime Membership" is warranted as well. The act of
demanding a refund will cause all Scientology organizations to refuse
to train or process me at any time in the future. (Ref. HCO PL 23
October 1963 REFUND POLICY © 1963 L. Ron Hubbard) Thus my "Lifetime
Membership" will not be a membership at all, and in that I am
completely dissatisfied.
As I am completely dissatisfied with all my services, and as I am
confident that this dissatisfaction is permanent and will remain in
effect up to and including the end of this lifetime, I will also never
be able to receive any of the discounts I paid for and am promised as
an IAS member. This too is completely dissatisfying to me.
I am sending copies of this letter to the various Scientology
organizations where I paid for services and which must participate in
this refund demand. I'm writing directly to you, Mr. Miscavige, so
that this refund process goes expeditiously and in accordance with the
stated command intention of L. Ron Hubbard. (Ref: HCO PL 23 October
1963 REFUND POLICY © 1963 L. Ron Hubbard), since you are in a managing
position over all the organizations or entities involved.
In advance of the suggestion, please be advised that I will not submit
to any further handlings by Scientologists, as I am dissatisfied with
all handlings I have ever received at any Scientology organization. I
will not go into any Scientology organization nor will I do any
routing form as a condition for your refund of my money.
I look forward to your prompt handling of my refund.
Sincerely,
Caroline Letkeman
Copies to:
Church of Scientology of British Columbia
401 West Hastings Street
Vancouver, British Columbia
Canada V6B 1L5
E-mail: churchofscient...@telus.net
American Saint Hill Organization
1413 L. Ron Hubbard Way
Los Angeles, CA 90027
E-Mail: as...@earthlink.net
Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization
210 South Fort Harrison Avenue
Clearwater, FL 33756
E-Mail: flagser...@earthlink.net
International Association of Scientologists
Saint Hill Manor
East Grinstead, West Sussex
England RH19 4JY
E-Mail: in...@scientology.net
US IAS Members Trust
1311 N. New Hampshire Avenue
Los Angeles, California 90027
E-Mail: in...@scientology.net
Church of Scientology Mission of The Foothills
2254 Honolulu Avenue
Montrose, CA 91020
E-mail: cofsfooth...@earthlink.net
Usenet: alt.religion.scientology
________________________________________
decoding scientology propaganda
http://www.entheta.ca/caroline/
caroline letkeman *antivirus*
________________________________________
DilbertPerkins
I think you may have to explain WHY you are dissatisfied though.
Being a critic, I can well imagine why. But Miss Cabbage may require further
explaination.
Feisty
Welcome back.....been wondering where you've been.
I hope you get a response to your letter and a full refund.
You have surely given more of yourself than the money,
and that is alot.
You have much to give and your insight has opened many eyes here.
The world will benefit from your goodness. Here's hoping you
receive much more than you ever wished for!
Feisty
Caroline Letkeman <caro...@telus.net> wrote in message
news:su24vtonhl6ibehkm...@4ax.com...
Caroline Letkeman
wrote:
Well, thanks Dilbert! I thought and thought about the very question
you brought up. Fortunately there is an LRH reference that covers
this issue exactly!
From HCO PL 23 October 1963 REFUND POLICY © 1963 L. Ron Hubbard,
<start fair use quote>
In 13 years involving hundreds of thousands of hours of processing and
millions of dollars in income, in any organization where I was
assuming direct command I have always promptly and immediately caused
to be refunded every penny of the money paid by the person who was
dissatisfied with his or her processing. This has been the consistent
policy I have worked with.
<end quote>
I may very well tell DM why I was completely dissatisfied but he can't
use that as the criterion for refund. It is sufficient that I am
dissatisfied. And I'm getting more and not less dissatisfied with
every hour of delay.
Caroline
Caroline Letkeman
>
>Welcome back.....been wondering where you've been.
>
bin ootnaboot, eh?
>I hope you get a response to your letter and a full refund.
>You have surely given more of yourself than the money,
>and that is alot.
>
>You have much to give and your insight has opened many eyes here.
>The world will benefit from your goodness. Here's hoping you
>receive much more than you ever wished for!
Aw, Feisty.
Caroline
>
>
>Feisty
>
<snip>
©Anti-Cult® - www.users.wineasy.se/noname/
In Message-ID: <su24vtonhl6ibehkm...@4ax.com>
From: Caroline Letkeman <caro...@telus.net>.
Organization: Lightlink Internet.
Wrote on the subject: Demand for Refund:
Eh, your last service was 3 days ago? Well Caroline, either you meant
Sunday, November 11, 2000, or perhaps you were OSA all the time after
all, as I said.
SAZ
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"The court record is replete with evidence that Scientology is
nothing in reality but a vast enterprise to extract the maximum
amount of money from its adepts by pseudo scientific theories... and
to exercise a kind of blackmail against persons who do not wish to
continue with their sect...The organization clearly is schizophrenic
and paranoid, and this bizarre combination seems to be a reflection
of its founder, L.Ron Hubbard."
Judge Paul Breckenridge, Los Angeles Superior Court
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Michael 'Mike' Gormez - www.taxexemptchildabuse.net
<caro...@telus.net> wrote:
Hi. I am fascinated to hear how you did fall back again and came out so
quickly!
Good luck with the refund. The IAS should be no problem at all. Tory and
Tom Padgett got it back too.
> caroline letkeman *antivirus*
http://www.lisatrust.net/literaticontest/contest2000/00antivirus.html
Mike
--
"Ron once said that if you make a person confront themselves it
would make them sick. I did, one day in conversation and after
about five minutes my guinea pig vomited. Validation by Ron!"
http://members.ams.chello.nl/mgormez/fun/pig.txt
Caroline Letkeman
www.users.wineasy.se/noname/ <Anti...@galacticfederation.homeip.net>
wrote:
Yeah, well my last service *was* like 3 days ago, eh.
When I joined Scn in 1975, I did not join a church, and so you can
imagine what an interesting thing it would be to actually attend a
Sunday service after all this time. It was indeed fascinating to see
how Scn management is trying to incorporate the illusion of corporate
religiosity into the scn inc. experience. (But ultimately, of
course, this too is dissatisfying.)
In 1977 I married a Sea Org member who was then stationed at the
Vancouver Organization as a "Flag Representative". The best man was
the Executive Director of Vancouver Org. And the "preacher" was
someone with an OSA post. [Sharpen your pencil, Anticult. ;-) ]
There was no chapel at the org--I had to rent a nearby church for the
wedding ceremony. The wedding reception was held in the Academy of
the Van org. Da-ta-taDA!
...so anyway, you can imagine my delight upon being ushered 24 years
later into an actual chapel with actual pews for an "actual" Sunday
service. But, as the service itself turned out to be very
unsatisfactory, my thoughts quickly returned from an excursion into
the possibilities for a repeat performance. My cognition was that
a) pews doth not a church make, and
b) a) above would not FN at the examiner, and
c) hoo girl, you have a wild sense of humor.
Sunday happened to be Remembrance Day, and there was some kind of an
event going on at a cenotaph near the org--marching band etc. At the
same time the "preacher" started in on the miscreants who don't follow
Hubbard's "code of honor", the marching band outside started in on
some old-time Dixie propaganda tune. I could not keep my TRs in to
save my life--it was very unholy, and as such, quite unsatisfactory.
The group processing part of the service suffered repeated marching
band distractions as well, and I fear that my psyche will be forever
compromised with these mangled thoughts of religious militarism.
As much as I was completely dissatisfied with the Sunday service
however, I would not discourage anyone from attending Sunday services
in their own areas. Looking over the religious book they apparently
mass produce for standard chapel trappings is worth the price of
admission, imo. It is a gilt edge, black leatherette Bible-looking
thing. It appears that the form of the sunday service is like a
"model session" as well. As could be expected from Golden Age of Tech
drilling procedures, there is nothing arbitrary about a Sunday
sermon--everything is done by the same "book". From it, the
"preacher" also gives the group processing commands, exactly as
Hubbard gave them at his own "sermons" (yeah, right) way back when.
Caroline Letkeman
ladayla
Woo Woo!!! What a great letter!
I am assuming that you went to a Sunday Service at CSBC.
If this doesn't go as you wish it, you should know that Val Stansfield will
expedite a refund for you.
I hope that you will pursue it on your own. It is a most interesting cycle.
Should you wish to contact me, my email is mor...@prodigy.net
all best, jana moreillon (aka ladayla)
Caroline Letkeman
Dear "Info" and "Missions",
I attempted to send a copy of the letter below to the Foothill
Mission. I obtained their e-mail address
cofsfooth...@earthlink.net from the mission locator at the
Scientology Missions International (SMI) site:
http://www.smi.org/address/wus02.htm. However, the address is
apparently not good. Would you please ensure that the Foothill
Mission receives a copy of this Demand for Refund letter? I would
also appreciate it if you would forward me the updated e-mail address
for that mission, so I can communicate with them directly.
<start paste>
From: Mail Administrator
Sent: Tue 11/13/2001 10:29 PM
Subject: Mail System Error - Returned Mail
This Message was undeliverable due to the following reason:
Each of the following recipients was rejected by a remote mail server.
The reasons given by the server are included to help you determine why
each recipient was rejected.
Recipient: <cofsfooth...@earthlink.net>
Reason: cofsfooth...@earthlink.net... User unknown
<end paste>
Thanks,
Caroline Letkeman
cc: Usenet: alt.religion.scientology
James W. Glass
OK, I'm confused. Was the above "actual" Sunday service a Scientology
service
or another church service? I think the former from your comments below.
>
> Sunday happened to be Remembrance Day, and there was some kind of an
> event going on at a cenotaph near the org--marching band etc. At the
> same time the "preacher" started in on the miscreants who don't follow
> Hubbard's "code of honor", the marching band outside started in on
> some old-time Dixie propaganda tune. I could not keep my TRs in to
> save my life--it was very unholy, and as such, quite unsatisfactory.
Please, more on what "group processing" is all about. Is it different than
the
homily in an Catholic Church or the sermon in a Protestant Church?
> The group processing part of the service suffered repeated marching
> band distractions as well, and I fear that my psyche will be forever
> compromised with these mangled thoughts of religious militarism.
>
> As much as I was completely dissatisfied with the Sunday service
> however, I would not discourage anyone from attending Sunday services
> in their own areas.
Why not discourage anyone? You left for some reason, after all. I
understand,
because I have done it, about just walking away, not wanting to make
value judgements on my former association.
Zinj
jwgl...@home.com says...
<snip to keep this short. Those who haven't should read Caroline's post>
> Please, more on what "group processing" is all about. Is it different than
> the
> homily in an Catholic Church or the sermon in a Protestant Church?
The simple answer is yes.
Scientology belief can only be 'infused' on what they call a 'gradient',
meaning, you can't reveal the 'beliefs' of Scientology until you have
properly treated the mind to receive them. Otherwise, and in complete
contradiction to other forms of Scientology 'research' this one is for
real, people start laughing.
RC or Protestant 'sermons, rituals or homilies' are delivered on a 'take
it or leave it approach.
Hubbard was, of course, no slacker in the area of mealy-mouthed homilies,
but his goal went far beyond the 'doesn't this sound nice and sweet?' of
run-of-the-mill hypocricy.
There are a couple of reports of 'Sunday Services' floating around, but
right off-hand I don't have one. They do seem to resemble more 60's style
'sensitivity training' exercises, once the mealy-mouthed-isn't-the-world-
horrible-and-hubbard-insightful balderdash is over.
There's a reason they resemble 'sensitivity training' and even EST group
gatherings, with all the 'imagine......' 'feel your.....'
They're deliberately hypnotic. And yes, although in general the reported
reactions have been 'god I was bored', most likely sometimes it works.
Hypnosis works. (if unreliably)
The *primary* purpose of 'Sunday Services' for the Church of Scientology
is to allow itself to take advantage of 'mistaken identification' with
mainstream religions.
The *secondary* purpose is to serve as a filter for people likely to be
receptive to 'scientology training'.
The *tertiary* purpose is an actual religious (if you consider
Scientology a religion, which I'm willing to do) experience that actually
*is* experienced by Scientologists who attend.
A true Scientologist actually *can* achieve a 'win' at the 'Sunday
Service'; and it's the only win they or anyone else can ever get free.
Zinj
>
>
> > The group processing part of the service suffered repeated marching
> > band distractions as well, and I fear that my psyche will be forever
> > compromised with these mangled thoughts of religious militarism.
> >
> > As much as I was completely dissatisfied with the Sunday service
> > however, I would not discourage anyone from attending Sunday services
> > in their own areas.
<snip end>
LronsScam
In article ID <MPG.165cab699...@news2.lightlink.com>,
On or about Wed, 14 Nov 2001 16:25:48 -0800,
In this thy group <alt.religion.scientology> cometh;
Zinj says...
SNIP
>
>The *primary* purpose of 'Sunday Services' for the Church of Scientology
>is to allow itself to take advantage of 'mistaken identification' with
>mainstream religions.
>
>The *secondary* purpose is to serve as a filter for people likely to be
>receptive to 'scientology training'.
>
>The *tertiary* purpose is an actual religious (if you consider
>Scientology a religion, which I'm willing to do) experience that actually
>*is* experienced by Scientologists who attend.
You forget the most important reason: to raise stats, namely reging.
Boudewijn van Ingen
Hash: SHA1
Will there be any picket in Vancouver over the next few weeks? Please
let me know. ;-)
On Wed, 14 Nov 2001 11:57:10 -0800, Caroline Letkeman
<caro...@telus.net> wrote:
>On Wed, 14 Nov 2001 12:16:57 +0100, ?Anti-Cult? -
>>>processing." -- HCO PL 23 October 1963 REFUND POLICY ? 1963 L.
>>>Ron Hubbard
>>>
>>>This refund policy was broadened by Hubbard to apply to not just
>>>processing, but to all Scientology services. He wrote, e.g., "No
>>>refund may be applied for successfully after three months from the
>>>end of the last service rendered." -- HCO PL 1 August 1966 REFUND
>>>ADDITION ? 1966 L. Ron Hubbard.
>>>future. (Ref. HCO PL 23 October 1963 REFUND POLICY ? 1963 L.
>>>Ron Hubbard) Thus my "Lifetime Membership" will not be a
>>>membership at all, and in that I am
>>>completely dissatisfied.
>>>
>>>As I am completely dissatisfied with all my services, and as I am
>>>confident that this dissatisfaction is permanent and will remain
>>>in effect up to and including the end of this lifetime, I will
>>>also never be able to receive any of the discounts I paid for and
>>>am promised as an IAS member. This too is completely dissatisfying
>>>to me.
>>>
>>>I am sending copies of this letter to the various Scientology
>>>organizations where I paid for services and which must participate
>>>in this refund demand. I'm writing directly to you, Mr.
>>>Miscavige, so that this refund process goes expeditiously and in
>>>accordance with the stated command intention of L. Ron Hubbard.
>>>(Ref: HCO PL 23 October 1963 REFUND POLICY ? 1963 L. Ron
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Groeten,
Boudewijn.
"Faith doesn't move mountains: it levels buildings." -- David Rice
Caroline Letkeman
Yes it was a service--I attended what the CSBC (Vancouver org) calls
"Sunday service."
>>
>> Sunday happened to be Remembrance Day, and there was some kind of an
>> event going on at a cenotaph near the org--marching band etc. At the
>> same time the "preacher" started in on the miscreants who don't follow
>> Hubbard's "code of honor", the marching band outside started in on
>> some old-time Dixie propaganda tune. I could not keep my TRs in to
>> save my life--it was very unholy, and as such, quite unsatisfactory.
>
>Please, more on what "group processing" is all about. Is it different than
>the
>homily in an Catholic Church or the sermon in a Protestant Church?
I am not familiar with homily in a Catholic Church, but group
processing is very different from a sermon in a Protestant Church.
Scn's sermon part of the service was the reading of Hubbard's "Code of
Honor." The minister also read from a Research and Discovery Volume
transcript, a lecture that had some relevance to the Code of Honor.
The "Code of Honor" script was read from the new scn bible-equivalent.
Group processing is something altogether different from the sermon,
although it is very definitely now a standard part of "Sunday
service." Group processing is an auditing session where the whole
audience complies with a series of verbal instructions given to them
by the group auditor. (In this case, the minister acts as the "group
auditor." The auditing commands themselves are typically taken from
transcripts of group sessions that Hubbard ran on his audiences in the
early days. The commands for the group processing on Sunday were
along the lines of, "Find the right wall." Find the left wall."
"Find the space between you and the wall." "Find something acceptable
about yourself." "Touch someone on the nose." "Touch someone else on
the nose." "Find the floor." And so on. That went on for probably
the better part of half an hour at least. The minister read the
auditing commands from scn's bible-equivalent.
In past days, before the cult tried to pass itself off as a religion,
group processing was not couched in religious terms at all, but was
done by the house speaker, or in any case, a trained person delegated
to conduct the session. There is no essential technical difference in
the group processing procedure when done under the guise of religious
ritual, as in sunday service. Group processing is done to get the
audience into "present time", or to in some way improve the emotional
tone of the group, and to bring it under control of the speaker.
From Group Auditors Handbook by L. Ron Hubbard © 1992 L. Ron Hubbard
Library
<start fair use quote>
The function of Group Processing is to help bring someone out of past
moments he is stuck in and into present time by directing his
attention to the present environment.
<end quote>
From HCOB 8 April 1957 Group Auditing © 1992 L. Ron Hubbard Library
<start fair use quote>
Group Auditing is as effective as we can continue control over the
group. As therapeutic as the control can be bettered.
Control can be of attention, person (body) and thinkingness. Should
any of these break down, auditing value stops.
Attention is easiest--thinkingness is hardest.
Order of control factors available to the auditor--group or individual
auditor, are:
1. ATTENTION
2. PERSON
3. THINKINGNESS
Thus the Group Auditor has only available to him in any group which
contains new or unclear people:
1. ATTENTION
2. PERSON
<end quote>
I would guess that a trained psychologist would classify these group
sessions simply as group hypnosis.
>> The group processing part of the service suffered repeated marching
>> band distractions as well, and I fear that my psyche will be forever
>> compromised with these mangled thoughts of religious militarism.
>>
>> As much as I was completely dissatisfied with the Sunday service
>> however, I would not discourage anyone from attending Sunday services
>> in their own areas.
>
>Why not discourage anyone? You left for some reason, after all. I
>understand,
>because I have done it, about just walking away, not wanting to make
>value judgements on my former association.
Imo, scn is about as religious as a rice cake. If it takes observing
first hand what a sunday service entails, I would think that a
discerning person would walk away with little agreement with scn as to
their claim of religiosity for heaven's sake. Does seem plausible
that direct observation of scn in action could be a valuable
experience for some. Not that it's necessary to attend Sunday
service in order to come to learn the truth about scn.
I'm glad that there are more resources nowadays for people who want to
find out the truth about Scientology, and that people are using those
resources. The danger is not that one attends Sunday service. The
danger is in not finding out the truth.
Zinj
says...
> The addy of Zinj <zinj...@yahoo.com>,
> In article ID <MPG.165cab699...@news2.lightlink.com>,
> On or about Wed, 14 Nov 2001 16:25:48 -0800,
> In this thy group <alt.religion.scientology> cometh;
>
> Zinj says...
>
> SNIP
>
>
> >
> >The *primary* purpose of 'Sunday Services' for the Church of Scientology
> >is to allow itself to take advantage of 'mistaken identification' with
> >mainstream religions.
> >
> >The *secondary* purpose is to serve as a filter for people likely to be
> >receptive to 'scientology training'.
> >
> >The *tertiary* purpose is an actual religious (if you consider
> >Scientology a religion, which I'm willing to do) experience that actually
> >*is* experienced by Scientologists who attend.
>
>
> You forget the most important reason: to raise stats, namely reging.
I would no more mention that *any* scientologist 'action' is done for
'stats' than I mentioned that a prerequisite to a 'Sunday Service' was an
oxygen level over 16%
Other than that, the 'secondary' purpose mentions it. Ya goddam
hypercritic! :)
Zinj
Christopher Wood
here in C$ or US$? Mind if I web this?
On Wed, 14 Nov 2001 01:30:22 -0500, Caroline Letkeman wrote:
> Caroline Letkeman
> 104-9275 Mary Street
> Chilliwack, B.C., Canada V2P 4H5
> caro...@telus.net
> November 13, 2001
(SNIP)
--
-- Scientology's gate is down. --
Canadian Scientology information is now at:
http://xenu.ca/
Gerry Armstrong
Ingen) wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
>Will there be any picket in Vancouver over the next few weeks? Please
>let me know. ;-)
Yes there will. Are you coming out west?
(c) Gerry Armstrong
Anonymous Coredump
And you expect this will be interpreted by anyone to mean you can get a
refund for services taken years ago? Idiot.
Phil Scott
Well it sure looks like you qualify for a refund, having done services within
the time limit to demand a refund, and being fully dissatisfied.
Ted Mayette managed a full refund you know by picketing the Las Vegas Org until
they shook loose. He got partial payments but kept on picketing until he got
it all.
You could do an hour a day, say between the time students get off course for
dinner and the time they come back at 7... with informative signs etc. The raw
meats will then wonder about the validity of the refund policy...and why so many
class 8's and OT 7's are leaving.
So many questions.
You may have to hand out some fliers to address them.
Phil Scott
On Wed, 14 Nov 2001 18:08:21 -0800, Caroline Letkeman <caro...@telus.net>
wrote:
>On Wed, 14 Nov 2001 23:54:25 GMT, "James W. Glass"
Nick Andrew
>On Thu, 15 Nov 2001 04:42:15 +0100 (CET), Anonymous Coredump
><mixm...@remailer.segfault.net> wrote:
>>>This refund policy was broadened by Hubbard to apply to not just
>>>processing, but to all Scientology services. He wrote, e.g., "No
>>>refund may be applied for successfully after three months from the end
>>>of the last service rendered." -- HCO PL 1 August 1966 REFUND
>>>ADDITION (C) 1966 L. Ron Hubbard.
>>
>>And you expect this will be interpreted by anyone to mean you can get a
>>refund for services taken years ago? Idiot.
>If it said, no refund may be applied for any service after three
>months had elapsed, that would be clear, but it says "three months
>from the end of the last service".
Actually, it says "...last service rendered.". That impliees a paid-for
service, not a religious service. Caroline attended a religious service
recently, and if it's been a long time since her last _paid_ service
(e.g. auditing or course) then this paragraph could be used against her
claim of a refund.
> In English, that would be a
>direct statement that refunds may be applied to services well
>outside the limit if the _last_ service was within the three month
>limit.
Nope. That's a logical fallacy. Denying refunds within certain conditions
is not equivalent to permitting refunds outside those same conditions.
There's nothing in that sentence which _requires_ them to give a refund
under _any_ circumstances!
>Like any con game, if you see through the con, you're not a good
>target.
Indeed. And like any con game, there's always the stigma of FRAUD
hanging around. It is this, and not any of Hubbard's one-liners which
will deliver a refund to Caroline. I can but echo the advice of others -
be persistent, noisy, get in their face, create bad PR, and keep doing
it until you get all your money back. Don't sign anything.
Nick.
--
Do not send me email copies of postings. Keep it in USENET please.
Tom Padgett
Good letter! VWD!!!!
Don't give up. Be persistent. Quote Hubtoad's
policy on "giving money back" to dissatisfied
customers.
And remember ....... your 61.5 G's was NEVER "tything" as in traditional
or mainstream religions.
Tom
------------------------------
http://community.webtv.net/tommyboy508/TomPadgetts
Caroline Letkeman
<cw...@NOSPAMxenu.ca> wrote:
>Damn, didn't realize you were Canadian and all. Are the amounts quoted
>here in C$ or US$? Mind if I web this?
The $61,500 would be USD. Web away. :-)
Caroline
>On Wed, 14 Nov 2001 01:30:22 -0500, Caroline Letkeman wrote:
>
>> Caroline Letkeman
>> 104-9275 Mary Street
>> Chilliwack, B.C., Canada V2P 4H5
>> caro...@telus.net
>> November 13, 2001
>
>(SNIP)
________________________________________
Caroline Letkeman
>Brent Stone <bst...@kudonet.com> writes:
>
>>On Thu, 15 Nov 2001 04:42:15 +0100 (CET), Anonymous Coredump
>><mixm...@remailer.segfault.net> wrote:
>
>>>>This refund policy was broadened by Hubbard to apply to not just
>>>>processing, but to all Scientology services. He wrote, e.g., "No
>>>>refund may be applied for successfully after three months from the end
>>>>of the last service rendered." -- HCO PL 1 August 1966 REFUND
>>>>ADDITION (C) 1966 L. Ron Hubbard.
>>>
>>>And you expect this will be interpreted by anyone to mean you can get a
>>>refund for services taken years ago? Idiot.
>
>>If it said, no refund may be applied for any service after three
>>months had elapsed, that would be clear, but it says "three months
>>from the end of the last service".
>
>Actually, it says "...last service rendered.". That impliees a paid-for
>service, not a religious service. Caroline attended a religious service
>recently, and if it's been a long time since her last _paid_ service
>(e.g. auditing or course) then this paragraph could be used against her
>claim of a refund.
Except that Scn is essentially trying to say that *all* their services
are religious services, whether or not they are paid. My question
becomes either:
a) "What makes a _paid_ service less religious than a Sunday service?"
(**helloo-oo**??)
or
b) "What is a Sunday service, if not 'rendered'?"
Caroline
>
>> In English, that would be a
>>direct statement that refunds may be applied to services well
>>outside the limit if the _last_ service was within the three month
>>limit.
>
>Nope. That's a logical fallacy. Denying refunds within certain conditions
>is not equivalent to permitting refunds outside those same conditions.
>
>There's nothing in that sentence which _requires_ them to give a refund
>under _any_ circumstances!
>
>>Like any con game, if you see through the con, you're not a good
>>target.
>
>Indeed. And like any con game, there's always the stigma of FRAUD
>hanging around. It is this, and not any of Hubbard's one-liners which
>will deliver a refund to Caroline. I can but echo the advice of others -
>be persistent, noisy, get in their face, create bad PR, and keep doing
>it until you get all your money back. Don't sign anything.
>
>Nick.
________________________________________
Zinj
caro...@telus.net says...
According to Hubbard, the only reason for the cost of Scientology
'services' is that they won't be taken seriously if they're 'given' away.
(a blatant Heinlein theft, but what the hell, Scientology has been
stealing from a true master for decades)
Therefore the 'free' Sunday service shouldn't be taken seriously.
Oh! Wait!
Therefore it's not the 'religion' of Scientology.
Oh! Wait!
They're not religious, they're secular, since they're meant as
'marketing/PR' for the wogs.
Ahhhh... that makes more sense.
Since 'Sunday Services' are'nt really 'religious' they're not services
per se, and Caroline is shit outta luck.
Hubbard knows everything!
Zinj
Caroline Letkeman
Au contraire! I visited Vancouver org for one reason and one reason
only: to attend a Sunday service. I was very much *in luck*--others
also referred to the event as a Sunday *service*, and by the end of
the service, I had indeed accomplished my purpose.
;-)
Caroline
>
>Hubbard knows everything!
>
>
>Zinj
Christopher Wood
service the L. Ron Hubbard money machine any more. =-)
Caroline Letkeman
<cw...@NOSPAMxenu.ca> wrote:
>At least by attending that one last service means you won't have to
>service the L. Ron Hubbard money machine any more. =-)
All kinds of plus points, aren't there? <g>
Caroline
BadDebtLoan
>>stealing from a true master for decades)
Why not? Don't most science fiction writers use other people's ideas? Isn't
that where scientology came from, a series of SF books? I think people just
lost the quotes that let them know where the ideas came from.
BadDebtLoan
Yes, I'm a .com
Boudewijn van Ingen
wrote:
>On Thu, 15 Nov 2001 18:05:50 -0800, Zinj <zinj...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Hehe. ;-)
>;-)
>Caroline
>
>
>>
>>Hubbard knows everything!
>>
>>
>>Zinj
>
>________________________________________
> decoding scientology propaganda
>http://www.entheta.ca/caroline/
> caroline letkeman *antivirus*
>________________________________________
Zinj
caro...@telus.net says...
Oh, I'd say in another heinleinism, you made your own luck :)
But it's fun to make fun of Co$' 'contradictions'.
Zinj
Zinj
badde...@aol.com says...
Just a reflection, not even a serious criticism. And Heinlein, although
superior in originality himself, made no bones about using anything good
he found.
Of course, he didn't set himself up as 'source' and claim 'discovery', or
try to sell his speculations as Xenu's Honest Truth (with the capital T)
There was one point when barb and I were working on 'Scientology - The
Musical', which had as its premise that Heinlein and some other prankster
SF types decided to pull a fast one, and 'invented' Hubbard as a joke.
I mean, anyone who's looked at Hubbard's spurious personal history has to
have sometime thought 'is this some kind of a joke?'
So, the theory went, they hired this out of work actor (a 'la Double
Star) and set him up with a fictional history (Hubbard's fake history has
so many parallels to Heinlein's *real* one that it's uncanny) then sent
him on his way to make fools of the pseudo-self-help-therapy crowd.
It goes further that somewhere around the late 50's Hubbard was getting
antsy just being the sock puppet for his creators, and they magnanimously
set him free, since there seemed to be no end to the willing gullability
of the 'I want to believe!' mooches.
Of course, Hubbard stayed on friendly terms, even stealing all the basic
OT bull from Heinlein's 'Stranger in a Strange Land', while at the same
time, making sure he kept the Old Master in the dark about his growing
paranoid schizophrenia, drug addiction and horrific internal abuse.
It's a fun idea for the musical, and means you get to have chorus lines
of Seo Orgers in sailor moon outfits singing song parodies.
Zinj
Caroline Letkeman
Appreciated the chain of <cough> logic. Now if I could only get rid
of this cough--sans PTS handling, OW writeups, or the next step on
the bridge--that would really "pin my luck meter." Betcha the
resolution is somewhere in the wog catechism--lemme know if you come
up with it first. In the meantime, I must say that Picket Art 101 is
proving to be quite therapeutic.
c
Phil Scott
Regarding refunds... there are also the criminal statutes on fraud. and those
start running from the time the fraud was discovered, not the time of the rip
off.
You have discovered only recently that fraud was involved. So from that
standpoint you still have a valid legal claim. The cults fraud goes well
beyond the sci fi 'religious' aspects... they have violated the terms under
which you agreed to pay them, that they would follow thier own codes, and
promises of ethical behavior, instead they have been hiring whores, hit men and
thugs, lying and murdering people.... all new to you, and counter to what you
were promised for your investment.
Fraud.
They wont want to loose a case like that. Or even have it hit the papers. Id
start with a small picket sign, say only 24" square and just a few hundred one
page fliers. If that doesnt fly you could go to a larger sign, maybe in neon
glow wire for night time picketing, say 4 feet square... and get your fliers
done off shore by the hundreds of thousands bound into booklets with floppy
discs attached.
You could also choose to picket some of the rather rich areas with missions that
have so far not seen a single picket...and are still loaded with rich raw meat.
One of those places can be emptied in two weeks with good fliers.
Cost to the cult...Oh about $60,000 with the first new recruit that gets a
clue..then all his friends, and the others that follow him.
Phil Scott
On Fri, 16 Nov 2001 10:57:16 -0800, Caroline Letkeman <caro...@telus.net>
wrote:
>On Fri, 16 Nov 2001 09:44:24 -0800, Zinj <zinj...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Zinj
caro...@telus.net says...
<snip>
Sometimes picketing itself is more important than the Art, but, that's
part of the 'art of picketing :)
If I remember right, Ted Mayett discovered the enturbulating effect of
his 'blank' sign by accident.
When he went picketing the Las Vegas org, he found on arrival that the
only sign he had, was one intended for an electronics store he had a beef
with.
Ted, in good 'art of picketing' fashion proceeded to picket the org with
his, in context, nonsensical sign; much to the enturbulation of his
handlers.
Being a person of quick insight, his next visit was with a blank sign.
To even greater effect.
Signs, no matter the art, are too small to encompass the horror of
Scientology, but may get enough attention that someone asks or looks for
more information.
My favorite at this point is an octaganal *stop-sign* shaped one, but in
warning sign yellow instead of red, which says 'Danger! - Cult Zone'.
I first saw it, made by someone else at a picket in DC with Arnie; don't
remember whose it was, but it was very effective.
The stop-sign shape with the warning yellow says things on many levels.
Very good art.
Zinj
Rev. Norle Enturbulata
"Zinj" <zinj...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.165ef6013...@news2.lightlink.com...
Would they get to sing "Springtime for Hitler"? :)