Diana wrote:
>>>Ah, yes...you might want, however, to read Juanita Brooks' account of the
MMM.....
Randy wrote:
>>Diana, I have read, and am fully conversant in Brooks' book, and she
corroborates what James Hughes quoted above. Perhaps YOU should read it.
> I have read it. James claimed that Buchanan sent the army against the
Mormons as a result of the MMM.
I've already pointed out that James was mistaken in that assertion. And if you
are endorsing Brooks, perhaps you'd like to comment on what she wrote on page
xiii.
>>I explained in another post that Buchanan sent such a large army contingent
out
in part to PREVENT the Mormons from committing such atrocities as the MMM.
>No he didn't.
Yes, he did. To repeat my documentation which you have dishonestly snipped
without comment:
They were official reports, not "rumors," and they most certainly were NOT
"unfounded," as evidenced by the fact that the Mormons harassed and drove off
federal officials, and Young, a federally-appointed territorial governor,
anounced that he was declaring "independence" from the United States:
"President B. Young in his sermon declared that the thread was cut between us
and the U. S. and that the Almighty recognized us as a free and independent
people and that no officer appointed by the government should come and rule
over us from this time forth." (Diary of Hosea Stout, September 6, 1857.)
"Difficulties arose when the first appointments were made by President Fillmore
to federal offices in the territory. Scarcely had these appointees taken their
oath of office when three of them: Chief Justice Brandenberry, Associate
Justice Brocchus and the Territorial Secretary, Broughton D. Harris, refused to
stay longer in the Territory and returned to the Eastern States. There they
spread the report that first, they had been compelled to leave Utah because of
the lawless and seditious acts of Governor Young; second, that Governor Young
was wasting federal funds allotted to the Territory; third, that the Saints
were immoral, and were practicing polygamy." ("The Restored Church," William
R. Berrett, p.321.)
In 1855, one of the succeeding associate justices, William W. Drummond,
tendered his resignation, and included among his reasons:
"That Brigham Young is the head of the Mormon Church; and, as such head, the
Mormons look to him, and to him alone, for the law by which they are to be
governed; therefore no law of congress is by them considered binding in any
matter; that he [Drummond] knew that a secret, oath-bound organization existed
among all the male members of the Church to resist the laws of the country, and
to acknowledge no law save the law of the priesthood, which came to the people
through Brigham Young; that there were a number of men 'set apart by special
order of the Church', to take both the lives and property of any person who may
question the authority of the Church." [Drummond was undoubtedly referring to
Young's "Avenging Angels" such as Porter Rockwell and "Wild Bill" Hickman.]
"That the records, papers, etc., of the supreme court have been destroyed by
order of the Church, with the direct knowledge and approbation of Governor
Young, and the federal officers grossly insulted for presuming to raise a
single question about the treasonable act. That the federal officers of the
territory are constantly insulted, harassed, and annoyed by the Mormons, and
for these insults there is no redress. That the federal officers are daily
compelled to hear the form of American government traduced, the chief
executives of the Nation, both living and dead, slandered and abused from the
masses as well as from all the leading members of the Church. The judge also
charged discrimination in the administration of the laws as against Mormon and
Gentile; that Captain John W. Gunnison and his party were murdered by Indians,
but under the orders, advice and direction of the Mormons; that the Mormons
poisoned Judge Leonidas Shaver, Drummond's predecessor; that Almon W. Babbitt,
secretary of the Territory, had been killed on the plains by a band of Mormon
marauders, who were 'sent from Salt Lake City for that purpose, and that only';
under direct orders of the presidency of the Church of the Latter-Day Saints,
and that Babbitt was not killed by Indians, as reported from Utah."
"Judge Stiles forwarded an affidavit affirming much of Drummond's charges.
These charges were further substantiated by a letter to President Buchanan,
written by Mr. W. F. Magraw.....'In relation to the present social and
political condition of the territory of Utah.....There is no disguising the
fact that there is no vestige of law and order, no protection for life or
property; the civil laws of the territory are overshadowed and neutralized by a
so-styled ecclesiastical organization, as despotic, dangerous, and damnable, as
has ever been known to exist in any country, and which is ruining, not only
those who do not subscribe to their religious code, but is driving the Mormon
community to desperation." (Berrett, p. 322-23.)
"It was now established, on sufficient evidence, that the Mormons refused
obedience to gentile law, that federal officials had been virtually driven from
Utah, that one, at least, of the federal judges had been threatened with
violence while his court was in session, and that the records of the court had
been destroyed or concealed. With the advice of his cabinet, therefore, and
yielding perhaps not unwilingly to the outcry of the republican party,
President Buchanan determined that Brigham should be superseded as governor,
and that a force should be sent to the territory, ostensibly as a posse
comitatus, to sustain the authority of his successor." (History of Utah,
Hubert Bancroft, p. 495.)
>Do read history books written by someone who is neither Mormon
nor anti-Mormon.
<chuckle> Care to recommend one that deals specifically with this incident that
isn't written either by a "Mormon or an anti-Mormon?" Hey, Will Bagley's about
to publish a new book on the MMM called "Blood of the Prophets." Care to tell
us whether he's "Mormon," "anti-Mormon," or "non-Mormon," so that we can know
whether or not to rely on his work?
The problem with your suggestion is that if anyone writes a book that tells the
version of events that is unfavorable to the LDS Church, Mobots like you simply
brand them as "anti-Mormon," and you discredit them on that basis---just as you
have wholesale branded every single federal official who fled Utah in the
1850's and '60's as a horrible person, simply because they published
information that was unfavorable to Brigham Young and his people.
>Try a couple of military history books. "Buchanan's Blunder' is not one of the
USA's more shining moments.
Neither are the MMM or Brigham Young's forced removal as governor shining
moments of Mormon history.
>>Unfortunately, Brigham Young prevented Johnston's army from entering SLC by
having his men harass them, drive off their stock, and burn their supply
wagons. If Young had not committed that act of treason, the army might have
entered Utah in time to escort the Fancher and Duke trains through the
territory so the Mormons couldn't attack them.
>Wasn't treason, you idiot.
Was, you Mormon. "Governor Cumming attempted to establish his authority from
Camp Scott, on Black's Fork.....A grand jury, called for the purposes of the
court, returned indictments for treason against Brigham Young and sixty of his
associates.....In April, President Buchanan appointed a peace
commission.....the commission carried with them a proclamation of pardon, under
date of April 6, 1858. The proclamation declared the Church leader to be in a
state of 'rebellion' and 'treason', yet in order to prevent the shedding of
blood, granted a pardon to all who would submit to the authority of the federal
government." ("The Restored Church," William R. Berrett, pp. 331-333.)
>Buchanan gauranteed that one when he "forgot" to tell Young that he was being
replaced, and simply sent the army.
I've already explained that
a) Buchanan had no requirement to send Young advance notice of his replacement,
because Young's term was up in 1854, and Buchanan could replace him at his
pleasure
b) Young's declarations that he was severing ties with the United States and
intended to establish an independent kingdom in Utah Territory made him a
traitor to his office, and thus invalidated his authority as governor
c) Young's declaration of martial law, prohibition of "foreign troops" from
entering the valley, and his orders to attack the army contingent prevented
Cumming or army officials from communicating their intent to him.
>As it turned out, the only person he had to send was Cummings, the
replacement.
Nonsense. If Cummings had gone in alone, the Mormons would have harassed him
and driven him off just like they did all the other federally-appointed
officials before him.
> After all, that's who ended up doing the job anyway, without help, you will
remember, from the army.
More nonsense. If the army hadn't been present, the Mormons might have
continued to interfere with federal officials' duties, and run them off, for
years. It was Van Vliet's promise that Washington would send a much larger
army contingent the next spring that forced Young to re-think his position and
cut a plea bargain the following April. And Cumming's resignation in disgust
in 1861 shows that the Mormons were still incorrigible at that time.
<snip to end, as Randy really makes my blood boil>
Aw dang, you snipped the documentation that refutes your contention that Young
didn't know why the army was coming. No problem, I'll just restore it. If you
don't like it, just take a Prozac, calm down, and delete it:
>Buchanan sorta forgot to let Brigham Young KNOW this small detail, that he was
being replaced.
This is another oft-repeated lie of Mormon apologists. Young knew VERY WELL
that the army's mission was to replace him as governor, as evidenced by Young's
remarks in a letter to Jacob Hamblin of August 4, 1857:
"Continue the conciliatory policy towards the Indians.....for they must learn
that they have got to help us or the United States will kill us both......We
have an abundance of 'news.' The government have appointed an entire set of
officials for the Territory. These Gentry are to have a bodyguard of 2500 of
Uncle's [Sam's] regulars.....They were to start from Fort Leavenworth July
15th.....There errand is entirely peaceful. The current report is that they
somewhat query whether they will hang me with or without trial. There are
about 30 others that they intend to deal with. They will then proclaim a
general jubilee and afford means and protection to those who wish to go back to
the States." (As quoted in Brooks, "Mountain Meadows Massacre," p. 34.)
Not only does Young's letter of August 4 indicate that he knew the army's
mission was to escort "an entire set of officials for the territory," his
sardonic remark about not knowing whether he would be hung "with or without
trial" demonstrates consciousness of guilt for his rebellion. The very reason
Young prosecuted a guerrilla war to prevent the Army from entering the valley
was because he feared being found guilty of treason and hanged.
>so all the Mormons knew was that, for the FIFTH time, they were about to be
driven out of their homes and forced to go somewhere else.
The Mormons deserved to be booted out of all the places they had been, and if
Young had not capitulated and given up his governorship, the Mormons would have
been run out of Utah as well, and they would have deserved it.
>This time, however, they decided that they were bloody
well not going to go.
To the contrary, Young looked for other places to emigrate to---even sending
his men out on a mission to find a non-existent lush habitat south of Utah that
he had claimed to have seen "in a vision"---and Young even went so far as to
evacuate SLC and tell the Mormons to gather seven years' worth of grain to live
on in the desert, if necessary. Young only decided to capitulate after Captain
Van Vliet informed him:
"In the course of my conversation with the governor and the influential men of
the territory, I told them plainly and frankly what I conceived would be the
result of their present course. I told them that they might prevent the small
military force now approaching Utah from getting through the narrow defiles and
rugged passes of the mountains this year, but that next season the United
States Government would send troops sufficient to overcome all opposition."
Young realized that if he continued his rebellion against the government, and
his efforts to make Utah Territory his own independent kingdom, that the
government would eventually send enough troops out to overthrow him. So he
caved in.
>There is NO historian who acts purely on fact that blames the Mormons for
Buchanan's Blunder.
All you're telling us here is that you haven't even studied the history, but
instead you are relying on the propaganda dispensed by Mormon apologists.
>None. The rumors upon which Buchanan acted were just
that, unfounded rumors.
That is exactly what deceitful Mormon apologists claim, but the evidence says
otherwise.
"These troops had been ordered to Utah by John B. Floyd, Secretary of War in
the administration of President James Buchanan. The order to Harney from the
Commanding General of the Army, dated June 29, 1857, explained the move as
follows: 'The community and, in part, the civil government of Utah Territory
are in a state of substantial rebellion against the laws and authority of the
United States. A new civil governor is about to be designated, and to be
charged with the establishment of law and order.' (Arrington, "Great Basin
Kingdom," p. 171.)
Randy J.
