Have Stone. Will Travel.
TJ
by Kathleen Baldwin and Sharon Lindbloom
Young Joseph Smith had an entrepreneurial spirit. While he waited for the
angel Moroni to hand over the golden plates, he started a business. That
business was gazing into a chocolate-colored seer-stone.
Joseph hired himself out as a "glass-looker" -- a consultant of sorts --
promising to peer in his stone and discern the location of "hidden treasures
in the bowels of the earth." 1 He would then tell his employer the best
place to dig in order to find the riches. By doing this Joseph earned a
reputation for being a "money digger." 2
According to contemporary witnesses, Joseph was "gifted" in the use of magic
peep-stones. Unfortunately for the enterprising young man, Joseph's clients
often became annoyed when his peep-stone would reveal angry spirits moving
the hidden treasure deeper into the earth and far out of reach. At other
times the "enchantment" surrounding the treasure would become so powerful
Joseph could no longer see in his stone and the search would have to be
abandoned. Such was the case when Josiah Stowell hired Joseph to find a mine
believed to have been hidden by Spaniards.
After several months of digging, Stowell's nephew, Peter Bridgman, became
concerned that his uncle was being swindled. Peter brought a formal charge
against Joseph, resulting in Joseph's arrest for being "a disorderly person
and an imposter." 3
Existing affidavits reveal that Joseph was engaged in money-digging from the
early 1820s until at least 1826. This is the same time period which, in
later years, Joseph claimed to have been communing with God, angels and
other heavenly beings.
Court records from Chenango County, New York4 evidence that Joseph appeared
before Justice Albert Neely for examination5 on March 20th, 1826. The court
heard from witnesses and the defendant himself, all of whom testified of
Joseph's use of a seer-stone in attempting (and failing) to acquire buried
treasure. The record shows Justice Neely found Joseph guilty, but no penalty
was ever administered.
Within a year Joseph eloped with Emma Hale, whom he had met while working
for Josiah Stowell. Emma's father, Isaac, was very upset. In an effort to
quell his father-in-law's fears, Joseph told Isaac that he "had given up
what he called 'glass-looking,' and that he expected to work for a living."
6 If this reassured Isaac, his peace was short-lived. Later that year (1827)
Joseph claimed to have retrieved gold plates out of the earth and began his
"work" of translating what would become the Book of Mormon. The translation
was achieved, said his friends and helpers, with the aid of Joseph's magic,
chocolate-colored seer-stone. 7
Joseph Smith's defense statement from Justice Neely's court record as
reported in Fraser's Magazine, quoted in H. Michael Marquardt and Wesley P.
Walters, Inventing Mormonism, 72. A concise and well-documented report of
Smith's money-digging career can be found in Inventing Mormonism, 63-87
See Joseph Smith稀istory 1:55 for this designation
New York law defined "Disorderly Persons" in various ways, including "those
who pretended to discover where lost goods could be found." Marquardt and
Walters, 71
"State of New York vs. Joseph Smith"
i.e., a pre-trial hearing
Affidavit of Isaac Hale, Harmony, PA, March 20, 1834, quoted in E.D. Howe,
Mormonism Unvailed, 264
David Whitmer, An Address to All Believers In Christ, 12; Andrew Jensen,
Historical Record, 216
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Woody Brison
TJ wrote:
>
> by Kathleen Baldwin and Sharon Lindbloom
>
> Young Joseph Smith had an entrepreneurial spirit.
No, he did not.
>...While he waited for the
> angel Moroni to hand over the golden plates, he started a business. That
> business was gazing into a chocolate-colored seer-stone.
He was a farmer and farm laborer, per the people that knew
him. Folks that didn't know him said he had a stone. One
said it was brown, another said it was green. Another said
it was striped. It was shaped like a shoe. It was the size
of a hen's egg. These "witnesses" could have made themselves
a lot more believable if they had collaborated and fixed up
a consistent description of the stone.
> Joseph hired himself out as a "glass-looker" -- a consultant of sorts --
> promising to peer in his stone and discern the location of "hidden treasures
> in the bowels of the earth." 1
No, he did not. Nor does the number one provide any evidence
that he is; it's only useful in counting very small sets, or
in getting to the number 2.
>...He would then tell his employer the best
> place to dig in order to find the riches. By doing this Joseph earned a
> reputation for being a "money digger." 2
He did not earn this reputation; it was patched onto his
memory by gossips and liars, who adapted stories of real
scam artists who had worked the gullible in the area earlier.
Every detail of the stories they told about Joseph can be
found in the stories about the con artists earlier. See
http://web.lds.net/pages/wwbrison/jschar.htm
> According to contemporary witnesses, Joseph was "gifted" in the use of magic
> peep-stones.
Actually, it's not necessary to go thru this entire exercise;
the grain of truth behind this whole story is discernable
in Joseph's own history <http://scriptures.lds.org/js_h/1>.
He was visited by an Angel from God, who showed him where
the Book of Mormon was cached. Along with it was an
instrument of knowledge, the Urim and Thummim. This
instrument was of God, you can find several mentions of it
in the Bible. We don't how know it worked exactly, but it
facilitated communication with the heavens. It was the
origin of the stories that Joseph had some kind of stone.
The people in general not being familiar with the Bible,
had no tools for trying to understand it other than the
stories of peepstones generated by the scam artists earlier.
Wood
Posted from NetWORLD Connections, Inc.
Markg91359
>him. Folks that didn't know him said he had a stone. One
>said it was brown, another said it was green. Another said
>it was striped. It was shaped like a shoe.
>It was the size
>of a hen's egg. These "witnesses" could have made themselves
>a lot more believable if they had collaborated and fixed up
>a consistent description of the stone.
Woody....give me a break. Oliver Cowdery, Martin Harris, Lucy Mack Smith, all
talk about Joseph's seer stone. Even if you don't believe he was found guilty
in the Bainbridge trial in 1826, you have to accept that Josiah Stowel and
other witnesses testified that he claimed he could look underground with the
seer stone and see buried treasure. (If you want a citation on this point, I've
got one to an issue of BYU Studies--Gordon Madsen Article) Not all of these
people just made the whole thing up. The evidence in the trial was that Smith
would put the stone in a hat and than place the hat over his eyes. Than he
supposedly could see treasure under the ground.
>No, he did not. Nor does the number one provide any evidence
>that he is; it's only useful in counting very small sets, or
>in getting to the number 2.
Lucy Mack Smith recites in her book that Josiah Stowell came all the way from
Bainbridge, NY to Palmyra to find Smith for the purpose of hunting for buried
treasure on his property. There is some dispute over how profitable this
really was for Smith. It may not have paid much more than room and board, but
even his mother admits he hired himself out to Stowell for this purpose (Want
the citation to this event, in her biography?)
>He did not earn this reputation; it was patched onto his
>memory by gossips and liars
How did Stowell "know" to come to Palmyra and ask Smith to hunt for buried
treasure? Did this just come to him out of the blue? Or, was it because Smith
had acquired a reputation--somehow--for doing this sort of work? Unless
Stowell had a revelation to come to Palmyra and hunt Smith down, it had to have
been the result of what was known about him.
Most defenders of Smith nowadays concede the business about the seer stones and
than go on to argue that treasure digging was a respected occupation in that
day and time. Certainly it is true that simply because Smith hunted for buried
treasure does not invalidate his story about finding the Golden Plates or
anything else.
It amazes me to hear people still argue that the seerstone business never
occurred. There is overwhelming evidence to the contrary and much of it is
from pure LDS sources.
Mark
TheJordan6
>Lucy Mack Smith recites in her book that Josiah Stowell came all the way from
>Bainbridge, NY to Palmyra to find Smith for the purpose of hunting for buried
>treasure on his property.
I've only posted that information about a dozen times over the last four years
for Woody, but he doesn't let things like facts get in the way of his
self-delusion.
Randy J.
Woody Brison
Markg91359, you wrote:
>
[I, Woody, had written]
>
> >... Folks that didn't know him said he had a stone. One
> >said it was brown, another said it was green. Another said
> >it was striped. It was shaped like a shoe. It was the size
> >of a hen's egg. These "witnesses" could have made themselves
> >a lot more believable if they had collaborated and fixed up
> >a consistent description of the stone.
>
> Woody....give me a break. Oliver Cowdery, Martin Harris, Lucy Mack Smith, all
> talk about Joseph's seer stone. Even if you don't believe he was found guilty
> in the Bainbridge trial in 1826, you have to accept that Josiah Stowel and
> other witnesses testified that he claimed he could look underground with the
> seer stone and see buried treasure. (If you want a citation on this point, I've
> got one to an issue of BYU Studies--Gordon Madsen Article)
Yep, I want it. I've never heard that Lucy talked about the
seer stone.
>...Not all of these
> people just made the whole thing up.
Possible... who were they, how did they know, etc. I want to
try to evaluate it myself. Sometimes all the scholars get
fooled, as with the Kinderhook plates; for many years it was
thought that Joseph said he had translated a portion of them,
but this was a statement erroneously attributed to him.
Joseph's wife Emma never saw the plates; that was reserved for
certain witneses (2 Ne. 11:3, 27:12, Ether 5:4). Yet she
talked about how he translated them. If she never saw the plates
then how does she know how he translated them?
As I remember, Emma said that she would move the plates around
the table as she was dusting, but I don't think this proves
that she saw them, they may have been wrapped in a cloth.
In previous years, artists generally depicted Joseph on one
side of a curtain translating from the plates, dictating to his
scribe on the other side. This is consistent with several things
I know of:
1) that no one was to see the plates, see the above scriptures;
2) Charles Anthon called Joseph "the young man behind the
curtain", and he got his information from Martin Harris, see
http://web.lds.net/pages/wwbrison/anthon31.htm
http://web.lds.net/pages/wwbrison/anthon41.htm
3) that Lucy said her son Joseph was extremely relieved once
the three witness had seen the plates, as follows:
=========================================================
History of Joseph Smith by his Mother, Lucy Mack Smith p. 152-3
Lucy described how Joseph exhorted Martin to repent of all his
sins, then took him and the other two out to the woods, where
they saw the angel and the plates.
"When they returned to the house it was between three and
four o'clock p.m. Mrs. Whitmer, Mr. Smith and myself, were
sitting in a bedroom at the time. On coming in, Joseph threw
himself down beside me, and exclaimed, "Father, mother, you
do not know how happy I am: the Lord has now caused the
plates to be shown to three more besides myself. They have
seen an angel, who has testified to them, and they will have
to bear witness to the truth of what I have said, for now
they know for themselves, that I do not go about to deceive
the people, and I feel as if I was relieved of a burden which
was almost too heavy for me to bear, and it rejoices my soul,
that I am not any longer to be entirely alone in the world."
Upon this, Martin Harris came in: he seemed almost overcome
with joy, and testified boldly to what he had both seen and
heard. And so did David and Oliver, adding that no tongue
could express the joy of their hearts, and the greatness of
the things which they had both seen and heard.
She then quotes their written testimony from the Book of
Mormon.
=========================================================
If for instance Oliver Cowdery had never seen the plates,
how does he know how Joseph worked with them?
Steven Ricks stated that the Urim and Thummim were hard to use,
they were made for a very large man, and they gave Joseph
headaches, so when he found the seerstone he was able to use it
instead and things went better, but I don't know Ricks' source
of this information. He has finally revised the little
transcript of that talk he gave, turned it into a more formal
paper:
http://www.farmsresearch.com/free/transcripts/tmpl.asp?content=ricksJST
And he's removed the bit about the U&T being too large for
Joseph. But I notice he seems a lot more undiscriminating
in his sources than I would be. Some of the people he cites
were apostates, bitterly so, or reminiscing about things that
happened many years previous. It seems that popular rumor
often put the Jaredites as being giants.
He makes a good point, that the notions recited by perfectly
good witnesses who should have known, about him reading off
a ghostly parchment with the exact English already composed,
doesn't make sense in light of the grammar of the 1830 edition.
It seems to me possible that the seerstone was a fiction, made
out of rumors. Or maybe not. Joseph did talk about seerstones,
DC 130:6-11. Maybe this cemented the idea in people's minds
that he had used a small seerstone to translate the Book of
Mormon, so they assumed that they could just recite the rumors
they had heard as if they had actually seen him do this.
>...The evidence in the trial was that Smith
> would put the stone in a hat and than place the hat over his eyes. Than he
> supposedly could see treasure under the ground.
My impression of the trial notes was that the various accounts
don't agree, some of them were likely forged, and the witnesses
at the trial were raking their imaginations and what they had
heard for their descriptions of the stone, not their own
observations. It is definitely something I want to understand,
which I do not now. It might be fun to compile a table of the
various descriptions of this stone, try to deduce how many
different seer stones Joseph had and estimate their total
weight.
> Lucy Mack Smith recites in her book that Josiah Stowell came all the way from
> Bainbridge, NY to Palmyra to find Smith for the purpose of hunting for buried
> treasure on his property. There is some dispute over how profitable this
> really was for Smith. It may not have paid much more than room and board, but
> even his mother admits he hired himself out to Stowell for this purpose (Want
> the citation to this event, in her biography?)
I have heard this story told differently. It was said that
Josiah Stoal came wanting Joseph to use his seer gifts to
locate the treasure on his property, but Joseph declined. After
some insistence on both sides, Stoal offered to hire Joseph as
a digger, for wages, to which Joseph consented, and went with
him. I know of two places where Joseph commented on this event,
and it's also in Lucy's book:
===========================================================
History of the Church Vol 1:16 ---
As my father's worldly circumstances were very limited, we were
under the necessity of laboring with our hands, hiring out by
day's work and otherwise as we could get opportunity. Sometimes
we were at home, and sometimes abroad, and by continued labor,
were enabled to get a comfortable maintenance. In the year 1824
my father's family met with a great affliction by the death of
my eldest brother, Alvin.
In the month of October, 1825, I hired with an old gentleman by
the name of Josiah Stowel, who lived in Chenango County, state
of New York. He had heard something of a silver mine having
been opened by the Spaniards in Harmony, Susquehanna county,
state of Pennsylvania; and had, previous to my hiring to him,
been digging, in order, if possible, to discover the mine.
After I went to live with him, he took me, with the rest of his
hands, to dig for the silver mine, at which I continued to work
for nearly a month, without success in our undertaking, and
finally I prevailed with the old gentleman to cease digging
after it. Hence arose the very prevalent story of my having
been a money digger.
During the time that I was thus employed, I was put to board
with a Mr. Isaac Hale, of that place; it was there I first saw
my wife (his daughter), Emma Hale. On the 18th of January, 1827
we were married, while I was yet employed in the service of Mr.
Stoal. Owing to my continuing to assert that I had seen a
vision, persecution still followed me, and my wife's father's
family were very much opposed to our being married. I was,
therefore, under the necessity of taking her elsewhere; so we
went and were married at the house of Squire Tarbill, in South
Bainbridge, Chenango county, New York. Immediately after my
marriage, I left Mr. Stoal's and went to my father's, and
farmed with him that season.
===========================================================
Elders' Journal, Joseph Smith, Jr., Editor., Far West,
Missouri, July, 1838, p. 38, repeated several other places:
13 Question 10th. Was not Jo Smith a money digger?
14 Answer. Yes, but it was never a very profitable job to him,
as he only got fourteen dollars a month for it.
===========================================================
History of the Prophet Joseph Smith by His Mother, Lucy Mack
Smith, 1958, p.91-92:
"A short time before the house was completed, a man by the name
of Josiah Stoal came from Chenango county, New York, with the
view of getting Joseph to assist him in digging for a silver
mine. He came for Joseph on account of having heard that he
possessed certain means by which he could discern things
invisible to the natural eye.
"Joseph endeavored to divert him from his vain pursuit, but he
was inflexible in his purpose and offered high wages to those
who would dig for him in search of said mine, and still
insisted upon having Joseph to work for him. Accordingly,
Joseph and several others returned with him and commenced
digging. After laboring for the old gentleman about a month,
without success, Joseph prevailed upon him to cease his
operations, and it was from this circumstance of having worked
by the month, at digging for a silver mine, that the very
prevalent story arose of Joseph's having been a money digger.
"While Joseph was in the employ of Mr. Stoal, he boarded a short
time with one Isaac Hale, and it was during this interval that
Joseph became acquainted with his daughter, Miss Emma Hale, to
whom he immediately commenced paying his addresses, and was
subsequently married.
"When Mr. Stoal relinquished his project of digging for silver,
Joseph returned to his father's house."
===========================================================
Lucy's account here underwent some revision from the way she
told it to her amanuensis. I don't know the full details, but
the above quotation exhibits some artifacts from the HC quote
higher above:
Lucy: ...the very prevalent story arose of Joseph's having
been a money digger.
HC: Hence arose the very prevalent story of my having been a
money digger.
It is known that the HC borrowed rather freely from numerous
documents, so I don't know which one was copied from the other.
Both were being written about the same time.
However, as it stands, it agrees with what I'd heard: that
Joseph declined to go as a hired seer, but went as a hired
digger.
> >He did not earn this reputation; it was patched onto his
> >memory by gossips and liars
>
> How did Stowell "know" to come to Palmyra and ask Smith to hunt for buried
> treasure?
He heard the gossip, obviously.
>...Did this just come to him out of the blue? Or, was it because Smith
> had acquired a reputation--somehow--for doing this sort of work? Unless
> Stowell had a revelation to come to Palmyra and hunt Smith down, it had to have
> been the result of what was known about him.
Or what was repeated about him. It was the common scuttlebut
that numerous "seers" in the area claimed to be able to find
things. Lucy even talks about one that was hired by the rogues
to try to find the gold plates. She was able to pinpoint the
spot where was hidden the chest, but Joseph had taken them out
of the chest and put them in the loft. Apparently her crystal
ball could see wood thru wood, but gold was completely invisible
to her, kinda opposite from Superman's xray vision...
> Most defenders of Smith nowadays concede the business about the seer stones and
> than go on to argue that treasure digging was a respected occupation in that
> day and time. Certainly it is true that simply because Smith hunted for buried
> treasure does not invalidate his story about finding the Golden Plates or
> anything else.
Right, the Prophet Elisha used his priesthood power to recover
a lost axhead, 2 Kings 6:1-7, and the Prophet Samuel used his
to declare that the asses Saul was searching for were found, in
fact they were going to pay him to tell where they were, a
longstanding custom among them in dealing with seers. 1 Sam. 9
> It amazes me to hear people still argue that the seerstone business never
> occurred. There is overwhelming evidence to the contrary and much of it is
> from pure LDS sources.
Good to hear it, I care not for arguing, but I seem to find
some weaknesses in the evidence that Joseph Smith had a seer
stone in addition to his Urim & Thummim. For one thing, /he/
never says a word about it in any quotation I've ever read or
heard of. He did describe the Urim and Thummin as a pair of stones,
JSH 35. It was always others who said he had a 'stone' he looked
in, who insisted they knew all about it, but they did not see
him translating. Did they see him using it to find things? or
did they hear this from others and kind of assume he did this.
TJ
Woody Brison wrote in message <3ac8cebf$1...@nntp.networld.com>...
>
>....He did not earn this reputation; it was patched onto his
>memory by gossips and liars, who adapted stories of real
Excuse me........BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
Woody, old pal, you are delusional. The whole Mormon scam was dreamed up by
an alcoholic sexual predator/scam artist to satisfy his lusts--and had a few
men who wanted to join in on his scam for obvious reasons.
Bottom line, Woody--you are going to burn in hell for eternity because of
your belief in a false God. Deal with it, or repent.
SG1
TJ <kind...@ibm.net> wrote in message
news:tcv1qko...@corp.supernews.com...
ibapain2000
>
>
>Woody Brison wrote in message <3ac8cebf$1...@nntp.networld.com>...
>>
>>....He did not earn this reputation; it was patched onto his
>>memory by gossips and liars, who adapted stories of real
>>scam artists who had worked the gullible in the area earlier...
>
>Excuse me........BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
>
>Woody, old pal, you are delusional.
This post indicates that you, not him, are dilusional
The whole Mormon scam was dreamed up by
>an alcoholic sexual predator/scam artist to satisfy his lusts--and had a few
>men who wanted to join in on his scam for obvious reasons.
I'm not sure you realize how rediculous this type of statement makes you look.
Any honest critic of our Church would have to admit that this "scam" (as you so
distortedly referred to it) was not "dreamed up" by anyone but a young man with
no perversions of any type. -- And even this is incorrect.
What is obvious from this type of fanatical rant is that you are obsessed beyond
rational expression. You are just another extremist unabled to deal with the
obvious success and acceptance of ths LDS Church. Get used to it, we're winning
and crackpots like you are becoming more and more marginalized.
>
>Bottom line, Woody--you are going to burn in hell for eternity because of
>your belief in a false God. Deal with it, or repent.
Wow, your a real nutcase!
Rick
>
>
Jim Allison
Proof by assertion, can't argue with that, huh?
CommUnitarian
writes:
>Woody, old pal, you are delusional. The whole Mormon scam was dreamed up by
>an alcoholic sexual predator/scam artist to satisfy his lusts--and had a few
>men who wanted to join in on his scam for obvious reasons.
>
>Bottom line, Woody--you are going to burn in hell for eternity because of
>your belief in a false God. Deal with it, or repent.
>
Actually, Tim, your presence on the newsgroup justifies LDS doctrine of
the afterlife. After all, the fact that you are here telling us about hellfire
means that you were there but got out somehow like Hamlet's papa.
What you should be doing is trying to get Wood baptized on your behalf
you so that you won't have to start upon that fearful summons and return. And
yes, I know that we Communitarians don't believe in baptism for the dead, but
you are the denizen of hell wandering over the earth, advertizing the truth of
LDS doctrine. I am just an outsider looking in at the faith you and Woody
ardently share. (Woody is a little more reverent about it, though.)
Raleigh
Do you see persons wise in their own eyes?
There is more hope for fools than for them.
--Proverbs 26:12 NRSV
TJ
ibapain2000 wrote in message <4TPz6.492$F93....@www.newsranger.com>...
>
>...Wow, your a real nutcase!
>
>Rick
>
Me? The nutcase? How about a young alcoholic man, adept in using
"peepstones" to read "plates from the sky" who was able to trick people to
part with their money and young virgins?
Ricky, had this absurd event (Smith's scam) happened a mere 50 years later,
he would've been laughed into an asylum. What Smith was shielded from then
was modern anthropology, which would've allowed him about 5 minutes of fame,
then 20 years in prison for fraud.
Deal with the Truth, Ricky. Read John 3:16 and realize that there is only
one Jesus--the Jesus of Matthew, and not the Jesus of Joseph Smith.
CommUnitarian
writes:
>>
>Me? The nutcase? How about a young alcoholic man, adept in using
>"peepstones" to read "plates from the sky" who was able to trick people to
>part with their money and young virgins?
That is very faulty logic to assume that because Joseph Smith may have been
a nutcase that you automatically aren't. The last time I looked up nutcase in
the dictionary, there was a picture of you next to the definition.
>
>Ricky, had this absurd event (Smith's scam) happened a mere 50 years later,
>he would've been laughed into an asylum. What Smith was shielded from then
>was modern anthropology, which would've allowed him about 5 minutes of fame,
>then 20 years in prison for fraud.
I don't think so, Tim. You have been on this newsgroup pretending to be both
sane and human for over two years now, and no one that I know of is prosecuting
you for fraud.
>
>Deal with the Truth, Ricky. Read John 3:16 and realize that there is only
>one Jesus--the Jesus of Matthew, and not the Jesus of Joseph Smith.
I could not find any reference to Joseph Smith in John 3:16. And if the
Jesus of Matthew is the only real one, why would you bother to read about the
Jesus of John? I just don't understand you or your Playtex Living Bible.
ibapain2000
>
>
>ibapain2000 wrote in message <4TPz6.492$F93....@www.newsranger.com>...
>>
>>...Wow, your a real nutcase!
>>
>>Rick
>>
>Me? The nutcase?
Since you failed to provide my entire post, let me provide your specific comment
to which I was replying:
">
>Bottom line, Woody--you are going to burn in hell for eternity because of
>your belief in a false God. Deal with it, or repent.
Wow, your a real nutcase!
Rick"
> How about a young alcoholic man, adept in using
>"peepstones" to read "plates from the sky" who was able to trick people to
>part with their money and young virgins?
>
Joseph Smith was not an alcoholic. Yes he did use the Urim and Thumim to
translate the Book of Mormon. Joseph Smith was never wealthy, and if he
possessed the skills and flaws you assert he could have used them to really
become rich, like the good old - Bible thumping - tele-evangelists of today.
>Ricky,
Who's Ricky? You must have me confused with someone your own mental age.
> had this absurd event (Smith's scam) happened a mere 50 years later,
>he would've been laughed into an asylum.
Oh really???? I used to get letters all the time from Robert Tilton. The facts
of Joseph Smiths life, and a lot of accusations and rumors that are probably not
facts, are all known. The Church continues to grow and progress, based on the
Truth of it's teachings. The Church was never a "personality cult" and you guys
who are insecure in your own faith try to claim.
> What Smith was shielded from then
>was modern anthropology, which would've allowed him about 5 minutes of fame,
>then 20 years in prison for fraud.
Is this statement supposed to make sense? Have you been taking classes at the
Fawn School of Apologetics?
>
>Deal with the Truth, Ricky.
I deal with the Truth on a daily basis, you may want to give it a try!
Read John 3:16 and realize that there is only
>one Jesus--the Jesus of Matthew, and not the Jesus of Joseph Smith.
>
They are the same, the Jesus of John, Matthew and Joseph Smith. I have no
reason to doubt you sincerity in following Christ, but you need to attack the
faith of others does seem to indicate a lack of security in your own beliefs.
Rick
>
TJ
CommUnitarian wrote in message
<20010408190446...@nso-cd.news.cs.com>...
TJ
ibapain2000 wrote in message ...
>...The Church continues to grow and progress, based on the
>Truth of it's teachings. The Church was never a "personality cult" and you
guys who are insecure in your own faith try to claim....
Yes, Rick, your Cult grows because of the money (billion$) built up by the
faithful will always be there--and the power weilded by the Cult's leaders
will never be relinquished.
The Devil is wicked, and wise--and stops at nothing to get hapless souls.
God Bless you, Rick.
TheJordan6
>Date: 4/2/2001 4:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <3ac8cebf$1...@nntp.networld.com>
Those readers who might still mistakenly think that Woody has a smidgen of
credibility in his opinions concerning Joseph Smith's "pre-prophetic" days
should go the www.lds.org, click on "Ensign magazine," find the February 2001
issue, and read the article entitled "Joseph Smith's Susquehanna Years," which
includes the following statements:
"Joseph Comes to the Susquehanna
"Local tradition and folklore surrounding the possible existence of an old
Spanish silver mine created a condition in the 1820s which led to a decided
change for the Hales. An enterprising farmer by the name of Josiah Stowell came
30 miles from his farm in Bainbridge Township, Chenango County, New York,
carrying a purported treasure map and accompanied by a digging crew. The
company took their room and board with the Hale family. On the crew were Joseph
Smith Jr. and his father. Lucy Mack Smith records that Josiah “came for
Joseph on account of having heard that he possessed certain keys, by which he
could discern things invisible to the natural eye.” The Smiths had initially
refused Josiah’s invitation in October 1825. However, the reality of the
family’s difficulty in meeting the $100 annual mortgage payment on their farm
and Stowell’s promise of “high wages to those who would dig for him”
finally persuaded them both to join in the venture."
End quote. As I have written countless times here on ARM, and as another
poster recently wrote to Woody---Lucy Mack Smith asserted that her son Joseph
Smith claimed to possess supernatural means to discern invisible or buried
items as early as 1825. His alleged powers were the very reason Stowell hired
him to "see" buried treasure.
The import of this is that Smith later claimed to have received the "Urim and
Thumim" from the "angel Moroni" in September of 1827---two years after his
"seeing" for Stowell (with its resultant arrest and fraud trial.) That means
that Smith's 1825 "means" couldn't have been the alleged "Urim and Thummim"; it
had to be the "seer stone."
Woody Brison's efforts center around trying to discredit accounts of Smith's
possession and use of a "seer stone" before he received the alleged "gold
plates," but unfortunately for Woody's line of (ahem)"reasoning," the "Ensign"
magazine, February 2001 issue, once again affirms Lucy Mack Smith's story,
making Woody's attempts to debunk Smith's 1820's "seer stone" use futile.
Mormon apologists have attempted to assert that the reports of Smith's 1820's
"peep-stoning" and money-digging were the inventions of "anti-Mormons," but
seeing as how the LDS church's own official magazine affirms the practice,
those attempts are meaningless.
The "Ensign" article also states:
"Isaac Hale said that Stowell and his men arrived at his home in November 1825.
Their dig located up Flat Brook beneath Oquago Mountain was short lived,
reported by Isaac to have ended about 17 November. 6".....
"At last Joseph summoned sufficient courage to request the hand of Emma in
marriage. Isaac Hale was adamant in his refusal, saying that Joseph “was a
stranger, and followed a business that I could not approve. 8".....
"Isaac Hale reported that while he was absent from home Joseph “carried off
my daughter, into the state of New York, where they were married without my
approbation or consent. 9".....
End quotes. For the origin of the quotes from Isaac Hale, the notes in the
article refer the reader to his notarized affidavit of March 1834, which was
published in the "Susquehanna Register" on May 1, 1834. Hale's affidavit was
requested by, and published in Eber D. Howe's "Mormonism Unvailed" later in
1834.
The import of this information is that numerous Mormon apologists, including
Woody Brison on ARM, have attempted to discredit Howe's entire "Mormonism
Unvailed" on the assertion that the affidavits included therein were recorded
by Philastus Hurlbut, and because he had an alleged "axe to grind", he either
embellished the testimonies or invented them out of whole cloth.
But the "Ensign" magazine's use of Hale's affidavit as a credible source in a
recent article upsets the applecart of those Mormons, including Woody, who seek
to discredit Howe and/or Hurlbut. Obviously, Mormon apologists cannot honestly
dismiss "Mormonism Unvailed," while the LDS church's official magazine is
quoting from it as though it were credible!
The "Ensign" article further states:
"From Manchester, Emma wrote to her father in Harmony asking “whether she
could take her property, consisting of clothing, furniture, cows.” Isaac
responded that “her property was safe, and at her disposal.” 11 Peter
Ingersoll, a neighbor of the Smiths, was hired to take them to Pennsylvania in
his wagon during August 1827. Peter said that as they drove into the yard,
Father Hale came out in an agitated state and amidst a “flood of tears”
confronted Joseph for having “carried away” his daughter."
End quote. I've posted the following numerous times on ARM, but for the
benefit of newbies, it bears repeating: Although many Mormon apologists seek
to discredit "Mormonism Unvailed" because of Hurlbut, in fact Hurlbut only
interviewed Palmyra/Manchester acquaintances of Smith. He did not go to the
Harmony/Bainbridge area, so therefore he could not have invented or "corrupted"
the affidavits of Isaac Hale or other Harmony area testators. However, one of
Hurlbut's Palmyra witnesses was Peter Ingersoll, quoted above in the "Ensign"
magazine. Once again, Mormon apologists cannot honestly cast out Hurlbut's
Palmyra testators as "incredible", while the LDS Church's own official monthly
magazine is simultaneously QUOTING from them, as credible historical sources!
Of course, the "Ensign's" quotes from Hale and Ingersoll are severely redacted,
using only a few snippets to keep the story running. The "Ensign" does not
recount the portions of their testimonies where they tell of Smith's
"peep-stoning" and money-digging; of Ingersoll's claim that Smith filled a
cloth bag with white sand from a creek to make locals think that it contained
the "golden plates"; that Isaac Hale affirmed that Smith had admitted that his
"peep-stoning" powers were all a fraud, and that he promised to give it up and
get an honest job; or Hale's assertion that Smith's method of "translating the
gold plates" was the exact same process that he had previously used to "look
for the money-diggers, with the stone in his hat, and his face buried in the
hat, while the book of plates were hidden in the woods!"
Various Mormons on ARM have quoted from publications of Mormon apologists such
as Hugh Nibley, John Wise, Francis W. Kirkham, and Joseph Fielding Smith, all
intended to debunk reports of Smith's pre-1827 "peep-stoning" and
money-digging, and assassinate the characters of those who so reported.
But now we have the "Ensign" in the year 2001, quoting from the very documents
that Mormon apologists since the days of Joseph Smith have attempted to
discredit!
Those who wish to read the uncensored, unedited, notarized affidavits of Hale,
Ingersoll, and numerous other 1820's acquaintances of Joseph Smith may find
them in "Mormonism Unvailed", at Bill Williams' website www.concordance.com.
The unintiated might be interested to read the parts that the "Ensign" would
never publish.
And in the future, when Woody or any other Mormon on ARM writes that Hurlbut
and/or Howe's work isn't to be trusted, I'll simply remind them that the
"Ensign" magazine thinks they are.
Randy J.
TheJordan6
>He was a farmer and farm laborer, per the people that knew
>him. Folks that didn't know him said he had a stone.
Here is another of Woody's infamous attempts to discredit an entire line of
documented history, because it makes his hero Joseph Smith look bad.
Below are a few quotes about Joseph Smith's possession and use of "seer stones"
from people who knew him very well, and from other documented historical
sources:
Brigham Young tells how Joseph Smith found his seer stone.
Willford Woodruff, a prophet of the Mormon church, wrote that on 11 September
1859, at a meeting of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles: "Preside[n]t Young
also said that the seer stone which Joseph Smith first obtained He got in an
Iron kettle 25 feet under ground. He saw it while looking in another seers
stone which a person had. He went right to the spot & dug & found it" (Willford
Woodruff's journal, 5:382-83).
Joseph Smith claimed that when he was a teenager, in 1823, that an American
Indian by the name of Moroni, who had died over 1000 years ago, visited him in
his bedroom at night. The Indian told Joseph that there was a cache of
valuable items buried together in a hill near Joseph's house.The items included
a book made of gold, a breastplate, and two seer stones. From Joseph's own
description:
"Also, that there were two stones in silver bows - and these stones, fastened
to a breastplate, constituted what is called the Urim and Thummim - deposited
with the plates; and the possission and use of these stones were what
constituted "seers" in ancient or former times; and that God had prepared them
for the purpose of translating the book.
(History of Joseph Smith, the Prophet, 2:35)
Orson Pratt, an early church leader, made clear Joseph's use of a seer stone:
"sometimes Joseph used a seer stone when enquiring of the Lord, and receiving
revelation"
("Report of Elders Orson Pratt and Joseph F. Smith, Concluded", Deseret Evening
News, 23 Nov, 1878)
Church leader George Q. Cannon writing in his book "Life of Joseph Smith", told
of Joseph's use of the seer stone.
"One of Joseph's aids in searching out the truths of the [Book of Mormon] was a
peculiar pebble or rock which he called a seer stone, and which was sometimes
used by him in lieu of the Urim and Thummim"
(Life of Joseph, 1888, 56).
Mormon Historian B.H. Roberts wrote:
“The SEER STONE referred to here was a chocolate-colored, somewhat egg-shaped
stone which the Prophet found while digging a well in company with his brother
Hyrum, for a Mr. Clark Chase, near Palmyra, N.Y. It possessed the qualities of
Urim and Thummim, since by means of it—as described above—as well as by
means of the Interpreters found with the Nephite record, Joseph was able to
translate the characters engraven on the plates.”
(Comprehensive History of the Church, Vol. 1, p. 129)
In an 1873 account, published in Frasers Magazine, Joseph was arrested, tried,
and found guilty by a justice of the peace in Bainbridge, New York, in 1826.
Here is an excerpt from that published court record:
“STATE OF NEW YORK v. JOSEPH SMITH.
“Warrant issued upon written complaint upon oath of Peter G. Bridgeman, who
informed that one Joseph Smith of Bainbridge was a disorderly person and an
impostor. “Prisoner brought before Court March 20, 1826. Prisoner examined:
says that he came from the town of Palmyra, and had been at the house of Josiah
Stowel in Bainbridge most of time since; had small part of time been employed
by said Stowel on his farm, and going to school. That he had a certain stone
which he had occasionally looked at to determine where hidden treasures in the
bowels of the earth were; that he professed to tell in this manner where gold
mines were a distance under ground, and had looked for Mr. Stowel several
times, and had informed him where he could find these treasures, and Mr. Stowel
had been engaged in digging for them. That at Palmyra he pretended to tell by
looking at this stone where coined money was buried in Pennsylvania, and while
at Palmyra had frequently ascertained in that way where lost property was of
various kinds; that he had occasionally been in the habit of looking through
this stone to find lost property for three years, but of late had pretty much
given it up on account of its injuring his health, especially his eyes, making
them sore; that he did not solicit business of this kind, and had always rather
declined having anything to do with this business.
The veracity of this article was unsubstantiated until 1971, when Wesley P.
Walters found among county records a bill showing the cost of several trials
held in Bainbridge in 1826. Included on this bill is the following entry:
same vs
Joseph Smith Misdemeanor
the Glass looker
March 20 1826 To my fees in examination
of the above cause 2.68
To see a copy of the actual bill, click here
In the July, 1838, issue of the Elders' Journal, Joseph Smith attempted to
answer the questions that were most frequently asked him. Question No. 10 read
as follows:
“Question 10. Was not Jo Smith a money digger.
“Answer. YES, but it was never a very proffitable job to him, as he only got
fourteen dollars a month for it.”
(Elders' Journal, July, 1838, p.43; reprinted in the History of the Church,
Vol. 3, page 29)
Joseph's wife Emma remembered the stone as:
"a small stone, [which was] not exactly, black, but was rather a dark color."
(Emma Smith Bidamon to Mrs. Charles Pilgrim, Nauvoo, Illinois, March 27, 1871.
Original letter in the library of the Reorganized LDS Church)
In 1879, Emma, widow of Joseph Smith, described the process of translating the
golden plates thus:
"In writing for your father I frequently wrote day after day, often sitting at
the table close by him, he sitting with his face buried in his hat, with the
stone in it, and dictating hour after hour with nothing between us"
(Emma Bidamon Smith interview, 1879, available in Vogel, Early Mormon
Documents, Volume 1, p. 541)
In a letter written March 27, 1876, Emma Smith acknowledged that the entire
Book of Mormon, that we have today, was translated by the use of the seer
stone. James E. Lancaster wrote:
How can the testimonies of Emma Smith and David Whitmer, describing the
translation of the Book of Mormon with a seer stone, be reconciled with the
traditional account of the church that the Book of Mormon was translated by the
"interpreters" found in the stone box with the plates? It is the extreme good
fortune of the church that we have testimony by Sister Emma Smith Bidamon on
this important issue… a woman… wrote to Emma Bidamon, requesting
information as to the translation of the Book of Mormon. Emma Bidamon
replied… March 27, 1876. Sister Bidamon’s letter states in part:
"Now the first that my husband translated, was translated by the use of the
Urim and Thummim, and that was the part that Martin Harris lost, after that he
used a small stone, not exactly black, but was rather a dark color…"
Sister Bidamon’s letter indicated that at first the Book of Mormon was
translated by the Urim and Thummim. She refers to the instrument found with the
plates. However, this first method was used only for the portion written on the
116 pages of foolscap, which Martin Harris later lost. After that time the
translation was done with the seer stone. (Saints’ Herald, November 15, 1962,
page 15; Emma’s letter is also reproduced in Early Mormon Documents, Vol. 1,
p.532)
David Whitmer frankly admitted that he never did see Joseph Smith use what
was later known as the Urim and Thummim (the two stones set in silver bows).
This information is found in an article in the Saints’ Herald:
According to the testimony of Emma Smith and David Whitmer, the angel took
the Urim and Thummim from Joseph Smith at the time of the loss of the 116
pages. This was in June 1828, one year before David became involved with the
work of translation. David Whitmer could never have been present when the Urim
and Thummim were used. All of this he clearly states in his testimony to
Brother Traughber:
"With the sanction of David Whitmer, and by his authority, I now state he
does not say that Joseph Smith ever translated in his presence by aid of Urim
and Thummim, but by means of one dark colored, opaque stone called a ‘Seer
Stone,’ which was placed in the crown of a hat, into which Joseph put his
face, so as to exclude the external light. Then, a spiritual light would appear
before Joseph, upon which was a line of characters from the plates, and under
it, the translation in English; at least, so Joseph said." (Saints’ Herald,
November 15, 1962, page 16)
The Book of Mormon refers to God giving his servant a stone:
"And the Lord said: I will prepare unto my servant Gazelem, a stone, which
shall shine forth in darkness unto light, that I may discover unto my people
who serve me" (Alma 37:23)
Brigham Young told how in 1841 Joseph Smith exhibited his seer stone to some
followers and taught that every man is entitled to a seer stone:
"Every man who lived on the earth," Joseph said to them, "was entitled to a
seer stone, and should have one, but they are kept from them in consequence of
their wickedness, and most of those who do find one make evil use of it."
(Brigham Young's journal, as quoted in Latter-day Millennial Star, 26:118,119)
Joseph Smith taught that God lives on a giant crystal ball:
"The place where God resides is a great Urim and Thummin."
(Doctrine and Covenants 130:8)
Joseph also taught that the Earth would become a giant crystal ball, and those
residing on it would be able to look into it and see things happening on
inferior planets:
"This earth, in it's sanctified and immortal state, will be made like unto
crystal and will be a Urim and Thummim to the inhabitants who dwell thereon,
whereby all things pertaining to an inferior kingdom, or all kingdoms of a
lower order, will be manifest to those who dwell on it; and this earth will be
Christ's. (Doctrine and Covenants 130:9)
On February 25, 1856, Brigham Young displayed the seer stone to the regents at
the University of the State of Deseret (Later re-named University of Utah), one
of which was Hosea Stout. He described it that night in his journal:
"a silecious granite dark color almost black with light colored stripes some
what resembling petrified poplar or cotton wood bark…about the size but not
the shape of a hen's egg." (Stout Diary, February 25, 1856)
On June 17th, 1877 in Farmington, Utah, Brigham Young made these comments
concerning Joseph Smith's treasure hunting. It was believed that an unseen
power moved the treasure deeper into the earth after the hunters had partially
uncovered it.
Or[r]in P. Rockwell is an eye-witness to some powers of removing the treasures
of the earth. He was with certain parties that lived near by where the plates
were found that contain the records of the Book of Mormon. There were a great
many treasures hid up by the Nephites. Porter was with them one night where
there were treasures, and they could find them easy enough, but they could not
obtain them.… He said that on this night, when they were engaged hunting for
this old treasure, they dug around the end of a chest for some twenty inches.
The chest was about three feet square. One man who was determined to have the
contents of that chest, took his pick and struck into the lid of it, and split
through into the chest. The blow took off a piece of the lid, which a certain
lady kept in her possession until she died. That chest of money went into the
bank. Porter describes it so [making a rumbling sound]; he says this is just as
true as the heavens are. I have heard others tell the same story. I relate this
because it is marvelous to you. But to those who understand these things, it is
not marvelous.
(Journal of Discourses 19: 37-38)
Though Brigham young acknowledged Joseph's use of a seer stone, he didn't claim
the same talent. John Taylor, addressing a church congregation, made these
comments:
"Brigham Young in saying that He did not profess to be a prophet seer &
Revelator as Joseph Smith was, was speaking of men being born Natural Prophets
& seers. Many have the gift of seeing through seer stones without the
Priesthood at all. He had not this gift [of using seer stones] naturally yet He
was an Apostle & the President of the Church and Kingdom of God on Earth".
(Wilford Woodruff Journal, 5:550).
In an 1890 interview, William Smith, brother of Joseph Smith, described the
"Urim and thummin".
Explaining the expression as to the stones in the Urim and thummim being set in
two rims of a bow he said: A silver bow ran over one stone, under the other,
arround over that one and under the first in the shape of a horizontal figure 8
much like a pair of spectacles. That they were much too large for Joseph and he
could only see through one at a time using sometimes one and sometimes the
other. By putting his head in a hat or some dark object it was not necessary to
close one eye while looking through the stone with the other. In that way
sometimes when his eyes grew tires [tired] he releaved them of the strain. He
also said the Urim and Thummim was attached to the breastplate by a rod which
was fastened at the outer shoulde[r] edge of the breastplate and to the end of
the silver bow. This rod was just the right length so that when the Urim and
thummim was removed from before the eyes it woul<d> reac<h> to a pocked
[pocket?] on the left side of the [p.509] breastplate where the instrument was
kept when not in use by the Seer. I was not informed whether it was
de=tacha<bl>e from the breastplate or not. From the fact that Joseph often had
it with him and sometimes when at work<,> <I> am of the opinion that it could
be detached. He also informed us that the rod served to hold it before the eyes
of the Seer.
(William Smith interview with J.W. Peterson and W.S. Pender, 1890, from
"Statement of J. W. Peterson Concerning William Smith," 1 May 1921,
Miscellaneous Letters and Papers, RLDS Church Library-Archives, Independence,
Missouri. Available in "Early Mormon Documents, Vol 1, Vogel)
In a supposed "revelation from god", Joseph Smith reveals how those who attain
glory in the afterlife will receive a seer stone of their own:
"Then the white stone mentioned in Revelation 2:17, will become a Urim and
Thummim to each individual who receives one, whereby things pertaining to a
higher order of kingdoms will be made known. And a white stone is given to
each of those who come into the celestial kingdom, whereon is a new name
written, which no man knoweth save he that receiveth it. The new name is the
key word"
(Doctrine and Covenants 130:10-11)
Within months of the organization of the Mormon church in 1830, a church member
started giving revelations by his own stone. The credulous nature of many
early church members is apparent in their ease in believing whatever someone
says they receive via the stone. In Joseph Smith's History of the Church, he
writes thus:
To our great grief however, we soon found that Satan had been lying in wait to
deceive, and seeking whom he might devour. Brother Hirum Page had in his
possession a certain stone, by which he had obtained certain "revelations"
concerning the upbuilding of Zion, the order of the Church, etc., all of which
were entirely at variance with the order of God's house, as laid down in the
New Testament, as well as in our late revelations. As a conference meeting had
been appointed for the 26th day of September, I thought it wisdom not to do
much more than converse with the brethren on the subject, until the conference
should meet. Finding however, that many, especially the Whitmer family and
Oliver Cowdery were believing much in the things set forth by this stone, we
thought best to inquire of the Lord concerning so important a matter...
(History of the Church, Vol 1, p. 109-110)
Joseph Smith then had another "revelation from God" that put Hirum Page in his
place:
"And again, thou shalt take thy brother, Hiram Page, between him and thee
alone, and tell him that those things which he hath written from that stone are
not of me and that Satan deceiveth him; for behold, these things have not been
appointed unto him, neither shall anything be appointed unto him, neither shall
anything be appointed unto any of this church contrary to the church
covenants". (Doctrine and Covenants 30:11-12)
A long-running irritant to the authority of the church was the boy prophet
James Collins Brewster. When he was 11 he claimed to have received the "Book
of Moroni" by revelation. Several members of his family and others were
dis-fellowshipped from the larger church due to their belief in these
revelations. Five years later, in 1842, Brewster was still receiving
revelations. The following notice was published in the church newspaper:
We have lately seen a pamphlet, written, and published by James C. Brewster;
purporting to be one of the lost books of Esdras; and to be written by the gift
and power of God. We consider it a perfect humbug, and should not have noticed
it, had it not been assiduously circulated, in several branches of the church.
This said Brewster is a minor; but has professed for several years to have the
gift of seeing and looking through or into a stone; and has thought that he has
discovered money hid in the ground in Kirtland, Ohio. His father and some of
our weak brethren, who perhaps have had some confidence in the ridiculous
stories that are propagated concerning Joseph Smith, about money digging, have
assisted him in his foolish plans, for which they were dealt with by the
church.
(Times and Seasons, Vol.4, No.2, p.32)
In Britain in 1841, devout Mormon William Mountford claimed to conjure images
in his crystals. Local church leader Alfred Cordon made a detailed record of
the circumstances, including quotes from Mountford himself:
"This bro Mountford had in his possession several Glasses or Chrystals, as he
called them: they are about the size of a Goose's egg made flat at each end.
He also had a long list of prayers wrote down which he used. The prayers was
[sic] unto certain Spirits which he said was in the Air." Then, quoting
Mountford: "When I pray to them in the name of the Father, Son, Holy Ghost, any
thing that I want will come into the Glass." Cordon then described how
Mountford divined the future for a young woman: "He brought out his Chrystals
and prayed unto a certain Spirit [---] then she must peep into the Chrystal and
in it she would see the young man that woul[d] become her husband."
(Alfred Cordon diary, 151-152 (27 Mar 1841) LDS Archives)
In December of 1835, Bishop Edward Partridge was visiting Kirtland from
Missouri when he met the daughter of John Thorp. This young girl had her own
stone and was known as a seeres. He describes the circumstances:
"She told me she saw a seer's stone for me, it was a small blue stone with a
hole in the corner, that it was 6 or 8 feet in the ground".
(The Journal of Bishop Edward Partridge, 1818, 1835-1836, transcribed by Lyman
DePlatt, a great-great-great grandson, 34 (27 Dec, 1835), LDS Archives)
LDS settler Priddy Meeks described in his journal the proliferation of seer
stones in the southern Utah town of Parowan. He said he "...kept the seer
stones under my immediate control". He described a foster child living in his
home by the name of William Titt: "...was born a natural seer. He was the best
hand to look in a seer stone that I was ever aquainted with." His journal
expounds that Titt:
"Did a great deal of good by finding lost property and by telling people how
their kinfolks were getting along, even in England." "He would satisfy them
that he could see correctly by describing things correctly."
(Journal of Priddy Meeks, 200)
Christian Anderson, a former Millard Stake high councilman, councilor in the
Fillmore Ward bishopric, Fillmore city councilman, justice of the peace, and
city recorder, wrote in 1890 that he:
...saw a Sister Russell of Salt Lake City who has a seersstone, and she told me
that the future was bright for me; that the Lord loved me and that I should
gain much power and influence among my brethren."
(The Personal Journal of Christian Anderson, Book IV, 56. Book V, 20, copy in
LDS Church Library)
Three years later, this same Sister Russell (Sophia Romriell Russell) was
sanctioned by the church authorities. Glass looking was a priesthood
responsibility, so only men were allowed to do it. James E. Talmage and Salt
Lake Stake president Angus M. Cannon visited her in February of 1893. Talmage
wrote that she:
"...claims a standing in the church, and also asserts her ability and right to
discern great things through seer stones in her possession." Cannon
"...reminded her that she was acting in defiance of the Priesthood, for the
High Council before whom she had been tried, had forbidden her using the stone
for such hidden purposes, except as she was directed by the Priesthood." (James
E. Talmage 1892-93 diary, 182)
In 1887, a body guard of church president John Taylor reported that he had seen
and handled the seer stone:
"On Sunday last I saw and handled the seer stone that the Prophet Joseph Smith
had. It was a dark color, not round on one side. It was shaped like the top of
a baby's shoe, one end like the toe of the shoe, and the other round" (Samuel
Bateman diary, 17 Aug, 1887, Lee library)
Wilford Woodruff, as new president of the church in 1888, dedicated the Manti,
Utah temple. While there, Woodruff had the stone upon the alter:
"Before leaving I Consecrated upon the Altar the seers Stone that Joseph Smith
found by Revelation some 30 feet under the Earth [and] Carried By him through
life" (Wilford Woodruff's journal, 18 May, 1888)
Joseph Fielding Smith confirmed that the seer stone is in the possession of the
Mormon church:
“The statement has been made that the Urim and Thummim was on the altar in
the Manti Temple when that building was dedicated. The Urim and Thummim so
spoken of, however, was the SEER STONE which was in the possession of the
Prophet Joseph Smith in early days. This seer stone is NOW in the possession of
the Church.”
(Doctrines of Salvation,Vol. 3, p. 225)
Mormon Bishop Fredrick Kesler wrote in his diary in 1899 that church president
Lorenzo Snow showed him the seer stone:
...showed me the Seerers [sic] Stone that the Prophet Joseph Smith had by which
he done some of the Translating of the Book of Mormon with. I handeled [sic] it
with my own hands. I felt as though I see & was handling a very Sacred thing. I
trust & feel that it will work in his hands as it did in the Prophet Joseph
Smiths hands."
(Fredrick Kesler diary, 1 Feb, 1899, Marriott Library)
Modern Church authority Bruce R. McConkie confirmed the use of the stone by
Joseph:
"The Prophet also had a seer stone which was separate and distinct from the
Urim and Thummim, and which (speaking loosely) has been called by some a Urim
and Thummim" (McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 1966, 818)
In about 1982, a descendent of Brigham Young, Mary Brown Firmage was told by
the First Presidency's secretary that there were 3 seer stones in First
Presidency's vault. She was allowed to see one when she visited that office.
She reported:
"The stone was not chocolate brown but rather the color of brown sugar. It was
3-4 inches long, 2 inches wide, and had a hump in the middle which made it
perhaps 2 inches thick at the thickest point. It was fiat on the bottom and had
three black, concentric circles on the top 1/2 inch. Below the circles were
many small black circles. The stone was not transparent."
(Mary Brown Firmage interview with Richard S. VanWagoner, 11 Aug 1986. Van
Wagoner papers, Marriott Library)
ibapain2000
>
>
>ibapain2000 wrote in message ...
>
>>...The Church continues to grow and progress, based on the
>>Truth of it's teachings. The Church was never a "personality cult" and you
>guys who are insecure in your own faith try to claim....
>
>Yes, Rick, your Cult grows because of the money (billion$) built up by the
>faithful will always be there--and the power weilded by the Cult's leaders
>will never be relinquished.
Traditional Christianity has built up this lie to shield people like you from
the truth. The LDS Chruch grows because 1) it provides the power of Faith in
Christ to it's members so powerfully that they are willing to spend a portion of
their lives proclaiming it to a world in desparate need of His Light. 2) when
sincere people (not necesarily all) are willing to study and ask God, they have
receive a Spiritual confirmation that the LDS Church is the path they are to
follow to Him.
I've been able to help people find Him. I don't know of a single person
converted as a result of the financial status of the Church.
Look at your own beliefs right now. We teach that a person should ask God about
their spiritual future - traditional Christianity says "No, you need to accept
our interpretation of the Bible." Traditional Christianity has built up a wall
of lies to keep people from examining our beliefs - your assertion that the
Church converts and grows because of money is a perfect example.
Why do those you follow have to rely on lies to 'protect' the faithful? If the
truth is not enough, maybe they are not telling you the Truth.
Rick
donm
> Woody Brison wrote:
>
> >He was a farmer and farm laborer, per the people that knew
> >him. Folks that didn't know him said he had a stone.
>
I suppose woody will caution everyone now that the ensign article might be
"altered".
Or that gb hinckley was out of town when then issue was put together without his
approval.
dangerous1
<------------------------------------------------------------------------------>
<http://www.users.qwest.net/~dmarchant1/index.htm>
slowly being upgraded for the 21st century
<------------------------------------------------------------------------------>
CommUnitarian
writes:
>Yes, Rick, your Cult grows because of the money (billion$) built up by the
>faithful will always be there--and the power weilded by the Cult's leaders
>will never be relinquished.
>
Tell me, Tim, since you claim to be United Methodist. What is the dollar
value of the United Methodist building at 5212 Main street in downtown Houston?
Religion is indeed a money-making proposition for all concerned, isn't it?
>The Devil is wicked, and wise--and stops at nothing to get hapless souls.
Yes. He even claims to be a Methodist, and sneaks in and out of the
preaching house, hoping to catch one or two now and then.
Clifford D. Statum
Don't tell me Raleigh went to Ole Miss, too ??
TJ
Clifford D. Statum wrote in message <3ad1f9e...@news.netdoor.com>...
Hey, pal...they made it the Sweet Sixteen this year....didn't see any
cowbells in San Antonio, did you?????????
Clifford D. Statum
Given your previously documented racial views on those of
African descent, your sudden embrace of a basketball team
which is predominantly black (and a game in which whites
invariably are outnumbered and outplayed by blacks) is curious.
And I went to Cal Poly, not Mississippi State.