Blacks and the Priesthood
STEGNER94
thoughts would be appreciated. I have heard so many conflicting things
regarding this issue.....I just want to get a clear picture.
Thanks
fritz
blacks were denied the priesthood based on joseph smith's teaching that
those with dark skin were those who had, in the pre-existence, rebelled
against God and were cast out with the devil.
that teaching was reversed so that the mormon church could appeal to a
wider demographic, avoid discrimination suits, get more $$$, and
continue to foster the appearance of validity in the modern age.
--
fritz
the mud and mayhem society
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Gerald G. Fuller
it that way, or at least the men He had placed in authority under Him on
earth thought that He wanted it that way. Simple enough.
Gene
--
Gerald G. Fuller
gfu...@advant.com
Mattoon, Illinois
STEGNER94 <steg...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990608132012...@ng-fq1.aol.com...
FAWNSCRIBE
Blacks of African descent were denied the priesthood because the Lord wanted
it that way, or at least the men He had placed in authority under Him on
earth thought that He wanted it that way. Simple enough.
Gene
>
AT least you imply that the men THOUGHT the Lord wanted it that way...some wont
even do that..the OLD Prophets though KNEW what God wanted because He TOLD them
and there were penalties for those who spoke their OWN thoughts as Gods
thoughts.There are no penalties today..people just say what they want and when
it doesnt seem to wash..they dip the doctrine in Clorox and move on with NO
accountability.
Fawn
Gerald G. Fuller
fritz <bobt...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:7jjo7g$srp$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> Any
> > thoughts would be appreciated. I have heard so many conflicting things
> > regarding this issue.....I just want to get a clear picture.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
>
> those with dark skin were those who had, in the pre-existence, rebelled
> against God and were cast out with the devil.
>
> that teaching was reversed so that the mormon church could appeal to a
> wider demographic, avoid discrimination suits, get more $$$, and
> continue to foster the appearance of validity in the modern age.
>
>
> --
> fritz
You could not be more wrong, Fritz, in either of your claims.
Gene
Gerald G. Fuller
news:19990608155139...@ng-fw1.aol.com...
The Old Testament prophets spoke what they _THOUGHT_ God wanted them to
speak. For example, Jonah _THOUGHT_ God wanted him to tell the people of
Nineveh that God was going to destroy Nineveh. Later events proved that He
just wanted Jonah to tell them that if they did not repent He was going to
destroy the city.
But my initial statement was that God wanted it that way. The fallback was
to pay homage to your disbelief and make the claim that at least the men
thought or believed that. Not that it was some racist thing.
But I agree that you and others do exactly as you said. You speak your own
thoughts and when you are wrong you dip your thoughts in Clorox and move on,
having no accountability in the first place. Well, that is at least as true
as your claim above, anyway. <G>
Gene
Michael D. Richey
> Blacks of African descent were denied the priesthood because the Lord wanted
> it that way, or at least the men He had placed in authority under Him on
> earth thought that He wanted it that way. Simple enough.
Or maybe the men just wanted it that way.
>
>
> Gene
>
> --
> Gerald G. Fuller
> gfu...@advant.com
> Mattoon, Illinois
> STEGNER94 <steg...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:19990608132012...@ng-fq1.aol.com...
> > Can anyone tell me why Blacks were denied the Priesthood for so long? Any
> > thoughts would be appreciated. I have heard so many conflicting things
> > regarding this issue.....I just want to get a clear picture.
> >
> > Thanks
--
Mike Richey
Eschew obfuscation.
FAWNSCRIBE
But I agree that you and others do exactly as you said. You speak your own
thoughts and when you are wrong you dip your thoughts in Clorox and move on,
having no accountability in the first place. Well, that is at least as true
as your claim above, anyway. <G>
Gene
>
bah Humbug gene..LOL..first off the prophets had to at least have prophecy come
true..and we did the whole routine on Jonah sweetcheeks..and Im STILL waiting
for us folks of *color*..(GGG.to get lighter....ummmmmmm..when that happens
Ill let ya know..pinky..<G>
Fawn
TheJordan6
>Date: Tue, Jun 8, 1999 13:20 EDT
>Message-id: <19990608132012...@ng-fq1.aol.com>
>
>Can anyone tell me why Blacks were denied the Priesthood for so long? Any
>thoughts would be appreciated. I have heard so many conflicting things
>regarding this issue.....I just want to get a clear picture.
>
>Thanks
Here are a few quotes on the subject. Maybe Darrick can put them on a really
big sign. :-)
Randy J.
Blacks and the Curse of Cain:
"Now WE ARE GENEROUS WITH THE NEGRO. WE ARE WILLING that the Negro
have the highest kind of education. I WOULD BE WILLING to LET every Negro
DRIVE A CADILLAC IF THEY COULD AFFORD IT. I WOULD BE WILLING that they have
all the advantages they can get out of life in the world. BUT LET THEM ENJOY
THESE THINGS AMONG THEMSELVES." LDS "Apostle" Mark E. Petersen, "Race
Problems - As They Affect The Church," Address delivered at Brigham Young
University, August 27, 1954, as quoted in Jerald and Sandra Tanner's book
entitled, "The Changing World of Mormonism," p. 307, emphasis added.
"Those who were LESS VALIANT IN PRE-EXISTENCE and who thereby had
certain spiritual restrictions imposed upon them during mortality are known
to us as the NEGROES." LDS "Apostle" Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p.
527, 1966 edition, emphasis added.
"THE NEGROES ARE NOT EQUAL WITH OTHER RACES where the receipt of
certain spiritual blessings are concerned, ...but this inequality is not of
man's origin. IT IS THE LORD'S DOING, is based on his eternal laws of
justice, and grows out of the LACK OF SPIRITUAL VALIANCE OF THOSE CONCERNED
IN THEIR FIRST ESTATE [the Mormon pre-existence]." LDS "Apostle" Bruce R.
McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 527 - 528, 1966 edition, emphasis added.
"...[T]hrough their INDIFFERENCE or LACK OF INTEGRITY TO
RIGHTEOUSNESS, [blacks] rendered themselves UNWORTHY of the Priesthood and
its powers...." LDS "Historian" B. H. Roberts, The Contributor, vol. 6, pp.
296-297, as quoted in Jerald and Sandra Tanner's book entitled "The Changing
World of Mormonism," p. 293, emphasis added.
"Is there reason then why the type of birth we receive in this life is
not A REFLECTION OF OUR WORTHINESS or LACK OF IT IN THE PRE-EXISTENT LIFE?
...[C]an we account in any other way for the birth of some of the children
of God in DARKEST AFRICA, or in FLOOD-RIDDEN CHINA, or among the STARVING
HORDES OF INDIA, while some of the rest of us are born here in the United
States? We cannot escape the conclusion that BECAUSE OF PERFORMANCE IN OUR
PRE-EXISTENCE some of us are born as CHINESE, some as JAPANESE, some as
Latter-day Saints. ...A CHINESE, BORN IN CHINA WITH A DARK SKIN, and with
all the HANDICAPS OF THAT RACE seems to have little opportunity. But think
of the mercy of God to Chinese people who are willing to accept the gospel.
IN SPITE OF WHATEVER THEY MIGHT HAVE DONE IN THE PRE-EXISTENCE TO JUSTIFY
BEING BORN OVER THERE AS CHINAMEN, if they now, in this life accept the
gospel and live it the rest of their lives they can have the Priesthood, go
to the temple and receive endowments and sealings, and that means they can
have exaltation. Isn't the mercy of God marvelous? Think of the Negro,
cursed as to the priesthood.... THIS NEGRO, WHO, IN THE PRE-EXISTENCE LIVED
THE TYPE OF LIFE WHICH JUSTIFIED THE LORD IN SENDING HIM TO EARTH IN THE
LINEAGE OF CAIN WITH A BLACK SKIN, AND POSSIBLY BEING BORN IN DARKEST
AFRICA.... IN SPITE OF ALL HE DID IN THE PRE-EXISTENT LIFE, the Lord is
willing, if the Negro accepts the gospel with real, sincere faith, and is
really converted, to give him the blessings of baptism and the gift of the
Holy Ghost. IF THAT NEGRO IS FAITHFUL ALL HIS DAYS, he can and will enter
the celestial kingdom. HE WILL GO THERE AS A SERVANT, but he will get
celestial glory." LDS "Apostle" Mark E. Petersen, "Race Problems - As They
Affect the Church," Address delivered at Brigham Young University, Provo,
Utah, August 27, 1954, as quoted in Jerald and Sandra Tanner's book entitled
"The Changing World of Mormonism," p. 294. Note: Allegedly, even "if that
Negro is faithful all his days," he will never achieve equality with his
"white and delightsome" Mormon brethren. Instead he allegedly will go to the
celestial kingdom "AS A SERVANT!"
"You see some classes of the human family that are BLACK, UNCOUTH,
UNCOMELY, DISAGREEABLE and LOW in their habits, WILD, and seemingly DEPRIVED
OF NEARLY ALL THE BLESSINGS OF THE INTELLIGENCE that is generally bestowed
upon mankind. The first man that committed the odious crime of killing one
of his brethren will be cursed the longest of any one of the children of
Adam. Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been KILLED, and THAT WOULD
HAVE PUT A TERMINATION TO THAT LINE OF HUMAN BEINGS. This was not to be, and
the Lord put A MARK upon him, which is THE FLAT NOSE AND BLACK SKIN. Trace
mankind down to after the flood, and then another curse is pronounced upon
the same race -- that they should be the "servants of servants;" and they
will be, until that curse is removed; and the Abolitionists cannot help it,
nor in the least alter that decree." LDS "Prophet" Brigham Young, Journal of
Discourses, Vol. 7, p. 290, 1859, emphasis added.
"Though he was a rebel and an ASSOCIATE OF LUCIFER IN PRE-EXISTENCE,
...Cain managed to attain the privilege of mortal birth.... [H]e came out in
open rebellion, fought God, worshiped Lucifer, and slew Abel.... AS A RESULT
OF HIS REBELLION, CAIN WAS CURSED WITH A DARK SKIN; HE BECAME THE FATHER OF
THE NEGROES, and THOSE SPIRITS WHO ARE NOT WORTHY to receive the priesthood
are born through his lineage." LDS "Apostle" Bruce McConkie, Mormon
Doctrine, pp. 108-109, 1966 edition, emphasis added.
"...[F]rom Ham sprang the race which preserved the curse in the land."
LDS Pearl of Great Price, Abraham 1:24.
"Noah's son Ham married Egyptus, a descendant of Cain, thus preserving
the Negro lineage through the flood." LDS "Apostle" Bruce McConkie, Mormon
Doctrine, p. 527, 1966 edition, emphasis added.
"And after the flood we are told that the curse that had been
pronounced upon Cain was continued through Ham's wife, as he had married a
wife of that seed. And why did it pass through the flood? Because it was
necessary that THE DEVIL SHOULD HAVE A REPRESENTATION UPON THE EARTH as well
as God...." LDS "Prophet" John Taylor, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 22, p.
304, 1881, emphasis added.
Note: Taylor claimed that blacks were Satan's representatives on Earth.
"Ham will continue to be servant of servants, as the Lord decreed,
until the curse is removed. Will the present struggle [the U.S. civil war]
free the slave? No.... Can you destroy the decrees of the Almighty? You
cannot." LDS "Prophet" Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 10, p.
250, 1863.
"For behold, the Lord shall curse the land with much heat, and the
barrenness thereof shall go forth forever; and there was a BLACKNESS came
upon all the children of Canaan, that they were DESPISED AMONG ALL PEOPLE."
LDS Pearl of Great Price, Moses 7:8, emphasis added.
"And it came to pass that Enoch continued to call upon all people,
SAVE IT WERE THE PEOPLE OF CANAAN, to repent." LDS Pearl of Great Price,
Moses 7:12, emphasis added. Note: Mormonism long considered blacks unworthy
of its missionary efforts, essentially unworthy of the Gospel message.
"The gospel message of salvation is NOT CARRIED AFFIRMATIVELY TO THEM
[blacks]...." LDS "Apostle" Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 527, 1966
edition, emphasis added.
"Negroes IN THIS LIFE are denied the priesthood; UNDER NO
CIRCUMSTANCES can they hold this delegation of authority from the Almighty."
LDS "Apostle" Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 527, 1966 edition,
emphasis added. (See also LDS Pearl of Great Price, Abraham 1:20-27)
"Not only was Cain called upon to suffer, but because of his
wickedness he became THE FATHER OF AN INFERIOR RACE. A curse was placed upon
him and that curse has been continued through his lineage and must do so
WHILE TIME ENDURES. Millions of souls have come into this world cursed with
a BLACK SKIN and have been DENIED THE PRIVILEGE OF PRIESTHOOD and the
fulness of the blessings of the Gospel. These are the descendants of Cain.
Moreover, they have been made to FEEL THEIR INFERIORITY and have been
SEPARATED from the rest of mankind from the beginning. Enoch saw the people
of Canaan, descendants of Cain, and he says, 'and there was a blackness came
upon all the children of Canaan, that they were DESPISED AMONG ALL PEOPLE.'"
LDS "Prophet" Joseph Fielding Smith, The Way to Perfection, pp. 101-102,
1931, emphasis added.
"I tell you, this people that are commonly called negroes are the
children of old Cain. I know they are, I know that THEY CANNOT BEAR RULE IN
THE PRIESTHOOD, for the curse on them was to REMAIN upon them, until the
resedue (sic) of the posterity of Michal (sic) and his wife receive the
blessings...and hold the keys of the priesthood.... In the kingdom of God ON
THE EARTH THE AFFRICANS (sic) CANNOT HOLD ONE PARTICAL (sic) OF POWER IN
GOVERNMENT [within the LDS church]." LDS "Prophet" Brigham Young, Brigham
Young Addresses, Ms d 1234, Box 48, folder 3, Feb. 5, 1852, as quoted in Bob
Witte's book entitled "Where Does It Say That?," p. 2-9, emphasis added.
"How long is that race to endure the dreadful curse that is upon them?
That curse will REMAIN UPON THEM, and THEY NEVER CAN HOLD THE PRIESTHOOD or
share in it until all the other descendants of Adam have received the
promises and enjoyed the blessings of the Priesthood and the keys thereof.
Until the last ones of the residue of Adam's children are brought up to that
favourable position, THE CHILDREN OF CAIN CANNOT RECEIVE THE FIRST
ORDINANCES OF THE PRIESTHOOD. They were the first that were cursed, and they
will be the last from whom the curse will be removed. When the residue of
the family of Adam come up and receive their blessings, then the curse will
be removed from the seed of Cain, and they will receive blessings in like
proportion." LDS "Prophet" Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7, pp.
290-291, 1859, emphasis added.
"When all the other children of Adam have had the privilege of
receiving the Priesthood, and of coming into the kingdom of God, and of
being redeemed from the four quarters of the earth, and HAVE RECEIVED THEIR
RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD, then it will be time enough to remove the curse
from Cain and his posterity." LDS "Prophet" Brigham Young, Journal of
Discourses, Vol. 2, p. 143, 1854, emphasis added. Note: Young taught that
blacks would not receive the Mormon priesthood until AFTER the resurrection.
"They [blacks] will GO DOWN TO DEATH. And when all the rest of the
children have received their blessings in the Holy Priesthood, then that
curse will be removed from the seed of Cain, and they will then come up and
possess the priesthood, and receive all the blessings which WE now are
entitled to." LDS "Prophet" Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 11,
p.272, 1866, emphasis added.
"In the spirit of SYMPATHY, MERCY and faith, we will also hope that
blessings may eventually be given to our negro brethren, for they are our
brethren - children of God - NOTWITHSTANDING THEIR BLACK COVERING
EMBLEMATICAL OF ETERNAL DARKNESS." LDS "Prophet" Joseph Fielding Smith, The
Way to Perfection, p. 102, 1931, emphasis added. Note: Even as LDS "Prophet"
Joseph Fielding Smith professed "sympathy" and "mercy" toward blacks, he
continued to preach condemnation and contempt for them.
"But let me tell you further. Let my seed mingle with the seed of
Cain, that brings the curse upon me, and upon my generations.... On that
very day, and hour we should do so, the priesthood is taken from this church
and kingdom [,] and God leaves us to our fate." LDS "Prophet" Brigham Young,
Brigham Young Addresses, Ms d 1234, Box 48, folder 3, Feb. 5, 1852, as
quoted in Bob Witte's book entitled "Where Does It Say That?", p. 2-9.
"Shall I tell you the LAW OF GOD in regard to the AFRICAN race? If the
WHITE MAN who belongs to the CHOSEN SEED mixes his blood with the seed of
Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is DEATH ON THE SPOT. This will
ALWAYS be so." LDS "Prophet" Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 10,
p.110, 1863, emphasis added.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
SRLowther
One of the best treatments of the subject I know of is Arden Eby's FAQ:
http://www.teleport.com/~arden/mormrace.htm
>Can anyone tell me why Blacks were denied the Priesthood for so long? Any
>thoughts would be appreciated. I have heard so many conflicting things
>regarding this issue.....I just want to get a clear picture.
>
>Thanks
_____________________________________________
Steve Lowther
"The fruit of silence is prayer. The fruit of prayer is faith.
The fruit of faith is love. The fruit of love is service.
The fruit of service is peace." -- Mother Theresa
SRLowther
>blacks were denied the priesthood based on joseph smith's teaching that
>those with dark skin were those who had, in the pre-existence, rebelled
>against God and were cast out with the devil.
>
>that teaching was reversed so that the mormon church could appeal to a
>wider demographic, avoid discrimination suits, get more $$$, and
>continue to foster the appearance of validity in the modern age.
>
>
>--
>fritz
>
>the mud and mayhem society
_____________________________________________
dar...@my-deja.com
Blacks of African descent were denied the Priesthood because of the
long-standing LDS Church DOCTRINE that they were the descendants of
Cain, and inherited his "curse". Because Cain killed his brother he was
marked with a black skin. But the Curse of Cain refers to the fact that
his descendants would be denied the Priesthood in this life; until the
Curse was removed. In _The Book of Abraham_ chapter one it talks about
Pharoah being of "that lineage" which was cursed as pertaining to the
Priesthood. It also identifies himself as a descendant of Ham. Joseph
Smith taught that Ham married Zeptah (Egyptus); a Cainite woman. Thus,
all Hamite peoples would thus also be Cainites. Brigham Young and others
said that the Curse would be removed from the posterity of Cain "when
the children of Abel come forward and take up their blessing first".
This led to the speculation that Negroes wouldn't get the Priesthood
until the end of the Millennium; since Abel would be resurrected and
have children all through the Resurrection, and they all would have to
have the Priesthood before any of Cain's descendants did.
Also, LDS Prophets have said that it is "a reasonable supposition" that
Negroes were "less valiant" in the Pre-Existence than other spirits;
when the War in Heaven raged against Lucifer and his hosts and Jehovah
and us. Because these spirits were "less valiant" in the WAr, they
were born in the lineage of Cain. This was based upon an article
LDS Apostle Orson Pratt wrote in his publication _The Seer_ back in
the early 1850s. Other of Pratts "doctrines" were not accepted. While
MOST LDS apostles and prophets called this "a reasonable supposition"
(i.e. speculation), a FEW called it fact: like Joseph Fielding Smith and
his son-in-law Bruce R. McConkie.
Since Bruce R. McConkie's *Mormon Doctrine* (last edition in 1979, the
Church has not "openly" taught the Curse of Cain doctrine. Many young
Mormons under 25 have NEVER heard of it, and, in fact, many of them call
me a "liar" when I said that Church taught it as DOCTRINE for 150 years.
Older Mormons know better, but even many of them don't believe it; being
racked with "white guilt" over it for years.
Today, the Church basically ignores it. When the question comes up,
they use evasions and equivocations. Some Church representatives
actually LIE about it; claiming the Church "never taught it". This is a
LIE. It was not only taught, but taught as DOCTRINE!!! You can read
*Mormonism and the Negro* on the Internet; especially the LETTERS FROM
THE FIRST PRESIDENCY that call it over and over again a DOCTRINE, and
deny that it is NOT mere speculation or opinion. Today, the First
Presidency is under a policy that not talking about it will make it
someday just "go away". When confronted by it, they use evasions and
equivocations. Again, certain Church Spokesman (like Don LeFevre and
Brooke Hales) actually come right out and LIE THROUGH THEIR TEETH!
Here are some points regarding the Curse of Cain doctrine:
1) It NEVER said that Negroes were "inferior". Both Genesis and the Book
of Moses declare that Cainites formed the first cities, were the first
to use musical instruments, and the first to work in metal. The Book of
Abraham identifies the "superior in wisdom" Egyptians as Hamites.
2) It ALSO says that the Hamites were "blessed with wisdom".
3) God both blessed and CURSED his own people Israel many times. This
did not mean they were evil or inferior; just that He corrects those He
needs to correct.
Of course, Mormon writers throughout the years have usually done one of
two things:
#1) Incorporated the racist Philosophies of Men into the Curse of Cain
doctrine to try to show that Negroes were indeed "inferior" in
intelligence, or
#2) Incorporated the Politically-Correct anti-Racist Philosophies of Men
to deny the Curse of Cain was ever a correct interpretation of LDS
Scripture.
In both cases, they are WRONG; because both of them make FALSE
ASSUMPTIONS:
The Mormon Racists falsely assumed that the Curse of Cain affirmed
Negro inferiority. IT does just the opposite (as explained above)!
The Mormon Liberals falsely assume THE SAME THING, and try to say today
that it was a "mistake"; a false interpretation by former Mormon
Prophets.
In fact, the Curse of Cain IF ANYTHING preaches Negro Superiority;
since it identifies "NEGROES" as the founders of civilization; with all
it's arts and sciences.
This just goes to show that Mormons (in general) cannot separate the
popular Philosophies of Men of their particular day with the Scriptures.
They _constantly_ intermingle the two.
The First Presidency today apparently believes that by not talking
about it, and by using evations to answer questions about it, it will
all just slowly fade away into oblivion. Of course, the advent of the
INTERNET will make sure this "fading away" never happens. Indeed, it
will become even more well-known than before.
Darrick Evenson
In article <19990608132012...@ng-fq1.aol.com>,
steg...@aol.com (STEGNER94) wrote:
> Can anyone tell me why Blacks were denied the Priesthood for so long?
Any
> thoughts would be appreciated. I have heard so many conflicting things
> regarding this issue.....I just want to get a clear picture.
>
> Thanks
>
dar...@my-deja.com
dar...@my-deja.com
Wrong. LDS teaching has always been that all who come to earth to gain
a body fought against Lucifer, and with Jehovah, in the War in Heaven.
The "Less Valiant Theory" was never DOCTRINE, but, as President David O.
McKay called it, "a reasonable supposition". Unfortunately, Joseph
Fielding Smith called it "doctrine"; as did Bruce R. McConkie.
The Church had no lawsuits against it for this reason in 1978. While
you may claim that the Church gave blacks the Priesthood just so as to
get more money, the more probable cause is because of the Sao Paulo
Temple, and the "Brasilian Situation". By 1978, thousands of
white-skinned "Negroes" had already been given the Priesthood in Brasil.
When President Kimball was made aware of this, he had a choice of
revoking their Priesthood, preventing them and their families from going
to a temple they sacrificed to build, or ask the LORD for the
Revelation.
Darrick Evenson
In article <7jjo7g$srp$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
fritz <bobt...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> In article <19990608132012...@ng-fq1.aol.com>,
> steg...@aol.com (STEGNER94) wrote:
> > Can anyone tell me why Blacks were denied the Priesthood for so
long?
> Any
> > thoughts would be appreciated. I have heard so many conflicting
things
> > regarding this issue.....I just want to get a clear picture.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
>
> blacks were denied the priesthood based on joseph smith's teaching
that
> those with dark skin were those who had, in the pre-existence,
rebelled
> against God and were cast out with the devil.
>
> that teaching was reversed so that the mormon church could appeal to a
> wider demographic, avoid discrimination suits, get more $$$, and
> continue to foster the appearance of validity in the modern age.
>
> --
> fritz
>
> the mud and mayhem society
>