"The Mormon Conspiracy" -- Best selling book reveals TRUTH about this dangerous sect
NoMo's
"The Mormon Conspiracy" A Review of Present Day and Historical
Conspiracies by the Mormon (also known as LDS) Church to Mormonize
America and the World.
A very comprehensive volume dealing with issues that most others who
have written about the Mormon Church have left untouched, namely the
political ambitions of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints
and how they have become successful toward this goal, unnoticed by the
majority of Americans. He has captured the "spirit of Mormonism" and
understood the internal structure amazingly well without ever having
been a Mormon. Dr. Wood's research and conclusions show originality and
give helpful conclusions which open the reader's mind to see the true
nature and plan of the Mormon Church for America-and the world.
Excerpts From “The Mormon Conspiracy”
* It is estimated that the assets of the Mormon Church have increased
from about $15 billion in 1983 to over 50 billion in 2000.
* Over sixty thousand fully-trained, adequately financed and prepared
Mormon missionaries are serving in all parts of the United States and in
over 124 countries around the world.
* Because young Mormon men have served in and studied the languages of
foreign countries throughout the world, large numbers of them have been
hired by the federal Central Intelligence Agency and therefore are in
control of a significant amount of CIA activities.
* A top leader of the Mormon Church has stated: “When our leaders speak
the thinking has been done. When they propose a plan--it is God’s plan.
When they point the way, there is no other way that is safe. When they
give direction, it should mark the end of controversy.”
* A Mormon Church radio network is in operation that is both national
and worldwide. The Mormon Church-owned Brigham Young University airs
church promoting broadcasts throughout the world. The basketball games
of BYU are especially attractive to South American listeners.
* The church utilizes radio and television stations throughout the
United States to broadcast “Home Front Series” offering to send
listeners free copies of the KJV of the Bible or the “Book of Mormon and
family-value videos. They are given toll-free phone numbers to call for
these. When they arrive, they come with two Mormon missionaries
“attached,” wanting an appointment to talk to families.
* Since the church hierarchy “hold the keys to the temple,” members must
remain loyal and obedient to the church in order to get a temple
recommend that allows entrance therein. Even parents of the bride and
groom must have a temple recommend to attend weddings of their sons or
daughters. And since members must have a temple recommend from their
bishop (a trusted, faithful servant of the church), also signed by the
stake president in order to be allowed to enter the temple, a recommend
becomes a powerful tool that the Authorities use in obtaining compliance
with the laws and rules of the church, including the required ten
percent tithing. This explains why Church Authorities have been building
temples at a record pace in recent years.
* The CES (Church Educational System) and the higher education system
which are shaping church members and church leaders to be “obedient,
intensely loyal, disciplined, submissive to ecclesiastical authority,
committed to official orthodoxy as defined by the hierarchy,” are just
what the Church Authorities intend.
* We live in a pluralistic society encompassing many nationalities,
religions and cultures. Most of us believe in individualism and free
thinking. From this pluralistic society our laws have been developed.
That may not be pleasing to all, but our laws have been accepted by the
majority. Within this society, we have individuals with the necessary
leadership abilities to maintain and improve our freedoms. Hopefully, we
have the capability to prevent the control of our society by an
organization that would limit our individual freedoms and democracy.
Since it is believed that the Mormon General Authorities conspire to
turn this country into their kingdom, we must expose them and insure
that they will not succeed.
* Joseph Smith taught that a man who took ten wives with him to heaven
had ten times as much chance of becoming God of his own planet than a
man who took only one wife.
*Students who are admitted and professors who are employed at Brigham
Young University must adhere to the university policy that requires
annual recommendation letters from local Mormon bishops verifying that
these persons have continuing temple recommends. Receiving and
continuing the temple recommend requires that the member certify that
one is loyal to church leaders and is faithful to church teachings.
Since nine of the First presidency and the Quorum of Twelve Apostles are
members of the thirteen-member BYU Board of Trustees, the church
hierarchy insures that the university professors and students comply
with church doctrine.
* Few foreign citizens are aware that the Mormon Church is not
predominantly “The American Church,” but only a minority church. It is
not a mainstream American church, nor does the Mormon “American church
uphold the American democratic ideals that many foreigners admire.
Instead of American democratic ideals, the Mormon Church is governed by
a monarchical style of administration, in which the head of the church,
the “President,” assisted by apostles and other General Authorities,
makes all appointments and decisions of the church.
* Mormon women are taught that men, through the power of the priesthood,
also provide the path for them to communicate with God. Men, who are the
priesthood holders, according to doctrine, have mystical powers (not
given to women) to heal the sick and to remove evil spirits from them.
*Spirits waiting to enter mortal existence was another one of Joseph
Smith’s creations arising from his remarkable imagination. The idea, no
doubt, had the ulterior motive of increasing membership in his church by
encouraging members to have large families. Smith’s desire to expand the
membership of his church has resulted in great burdens being place upon
young married women, who need this time to gain an education or training
for a vocation that would improve their economic positions in life.
Instead, they are tied down to bearing and raising more children.
* By creating the priesthood, Joseph Smith was able to provide a
framework from which the church would grow and also prevent defectors.
Within this organization is a system that provides constant vigilance
upon members to pressure them to remain in the church. It is not unlike
the Communist spying system which held the Russian and surrounding
smaller nations’ peoples under the Communist dictatorship of the
Proletariat for almost a century.
* Because of long indoctrination, frequent social interaction in the
church, and overseeing by the priesthood, former members find leaving
the Mormon Church accompanied by trauma, psychological problems and
social disorganization. This is especially so if a member of the church
has been born into a family that is active in the church, and has grown
to adulthood while a member. To understand why it is so difficult to
leave the church, even if one has a strong desire to do so, it is
important to know about the intense propagandizing, reinforcement,
social controls and the priesthood “watch” that insure members “toe the
line” regarding church regulations and doctrine.
GRaleigh345
wrote:
>
>"The Mormon Conspiracy" A Review of Present Day and Historical
>Conspiracies by the Mormon (also known as LDS) Church to Mormonize
>America and the World.
That is a basic doctrine of Christianity--that the planet earth has been
conquered by a rebel enemy, and that the Christians must covertly win it back
through evangelism.
Raleigh
"Why don't you just be what you are, and let us be what we are."
--Will Robinson
€R.L. Measures
<no...@bibletrueteachings.com> wrote:
> http://www.mormonconspiracy.com/
>
> "The Mormon Conspiracy" A Review of Present Day and Historical
> Conspiracies by the Mormon (also known as LDS) Church to Mormonize
> America and the World.
>
> A very comprehensive volume dealing with issues that most others who
> have written about the Mormon Church have left untouched, namely the
> political ambitions of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints
> and how they have become successful toward this goal, unnoticed by the
> majority of Americans. ...
> * Joseph Smith taught that a man who took ten wives with him to heaven
> had ten times as much chance of becoming God of his own planet than a
> man who took only one wife.
>
** Joseph Smith did not teach this. His somewhat lecherous son, Joseph
Smith, Jr., taught it in 1843.
--
Rich, AG6K, 805 386 3734, www.vcnet.com/measures
remove ^ from e-mail address
Diana
"NoMo's" <no...@bibletrueteachings.com> wrote in message
news:3EF15F...@bibletrueteachings.com...
> http://www.mormonconspiracy.com/
<snip to>
> Excerpts From "The Mormon Conspiracy"
>
> * It is estimated that the assets of the Mormon Church have increased
> from about $15 billion in 1983 to over 50 billion in 2000.
Good. It means that we can care for more people, build more churches. Wow,
a church that wants to build churches and feed people. What a concept.
> * Over sixty thousand fully-trained, adequately financed and prepared
> Mormon missionaries are serving in all parts of the United States and in
> over 124 countries around the world.
Wow; a church that actually asks its' young people to give of themselves for
a couple of years; not as a laudable and unusual calling, but as something
that should happen in the life of everyone; a dedication to God and care for
others. Why, SOME people serve two or three; one when they are young, and
another when they are older, with their spouses. Of course the later
missions are often slightly different types, like medical, dental,
administrative, farming, research...you know, helping people? How awful of
us.
> * Because young Mormon men have served in and studied the languages of
> foreign countries throughout the world, large numbers of them have been
> hired by the federal Central Intelligence Agency and therefore are in
> control of a significant amount of CIA activities.
Smart CIA. So Mormons tend to speak more languages and be a little more
aquainted with the peoples of the world than the normal, average American.
Wow. How horrible of us. How insular of you.
> * A top leader of the Mormon Church has stated: "When our leaders speak
> the thinking has been done. When they propose a plan--it is God's plan.
> When they point the way, there is no other way that is safe. When they
> give direction, it should mark the end of controversy."
Which top leader, where and when was this said, what was the context? I'm a
little tired of this.
However..........When Paul wrote something in the bible, is not what he
wrote considered the final say on whatever the topic is?
> * A Mormon Church radio network is in operation that is both national
> and worldwide. The Mormon Church-owned Brigham Young University airs
> church promoting broadcasts throughout the world. The basketball games
> of BYU are especially attractive to South American listeners.
Ah, conspiracy theorists are fun, aren't they? SOUTH AMERICA LIKES BYU
BASKETBALL!!!!! THE WORLD ENDS IN THE MORNING!!!!
> * The church utilizes radio and television stations throughout the
> United States to broadcast "Home Front Series" offering to send
> listeners free copies of the KJV of the Bible or the "Book of Mormon and
> family-value videos. They are given toll-free phone numbers to call for
> these. When they arrive, they come with two Mormon missionaries
> "attached," wanting an appointment to talk to families.
Uh, yeah. That's called missionary work.
> * Since the church hierarchy "hold the keys to the temple," members must
> remain loyal and obedient to the church in order to get a temple
> recommend that allows entrance therein. Even parents of the bride and
> groom must have a temple recommend to attend weddings of their sons or
> daughters. And since members must have a temple recommend from their
> bishop (a trusted, faithful servant of the church), also signed by the
> stake president in order to be allowed to enter the temple, a recommend
> becomes a powerful tool that the Authorities use in obtaining compliance
> with the laws and rules of the church, including the required ten
> percent tithing. This explains why Church Authorities have been building
> temples at a record pace in recent years.
Yes. We pay tithing. I think it's a commandment. Biblical. Even Jesus yelled
at the Pharisees about it....He criticised them for doing nothing BUT hand
over tithing; He said that they should be charitable and loving and faithful
to others; "this do", He said, and "not leave the other [that would be
tithing and offerings..] undone".
> * The CES (Church Educational System) and the higher education system
> which are shaping church members and church leaders to be "obedient,
> intensely loyal, disciplined, submissive to ecclesiastical authority,
> committed to official orthodoxy as defined by the hierarchy," are just
> what the Church Authorities intend.
Unlike every OTHER church that has official church SCHOOLS, not simply hour
a day religious training outside the main high school campuses? (snort)
This is getting better and better.
>
> * We live in a pluralistic society encompassing many nationalities,
> religions and cultures. Most of us believe in individualism and free
> thinking. From this pluralistic society our laws have been developed.
> That may not be pleasing to all, but our laws have been accepted by the
> majority. Within this society, we have individuals with the necessary
> leadership abilities to maintain and improve our freedoms. Hopefully, we
> have the capability to prevent the control of our society by an
> organization that would limit our individual freedoms and democracy.
> Since it is believed that the Mormon General Authorities conspire to
> turn this country into their kingdom, we must expose them and insure
> that they will not succeed.
While you are at it, would you mention that MORMON women had the vote a full
generation before the women of the rest of the world, and that MORMON women
were among the first to become doctors, lawyers, professions forbidden to
most American women?
Would you mention that MORMONS are among the most patriotic of people,
whatever nation they happen to live in?
>
> * Joseph Smith taught that a man who took ten wives with him to heaven
> had ten times as much chance of becoming God of his own planet than a
> man who took only one wife.
(sigh)
> *Students who are admitted and professors who are employed at Brigham
> Young University must adhere to the university policy that requires
> annual recommendation letters from local Mormon bishops verifying that
> these persons have continuing temple recommends.
.........or that they are faithful members of whatever church they happen to
belong to. Or if atheist, nothing at all. BYU is a RELIGIOUS UNIVERSITY.
Hello?
> Receiving and
> continuing the temple recommend requires that the member certify that
> one is loyal to church leaders and is faithful to church teachings.
> Since nine of the First presidency and the Quorum of Twelve Apostles are
> members of the thirteen-member BYU Board of Trustees, the church
> hierarchy insures that the university professors and students comply
> with church doctrine.
If you profess to belong to a religion, then it's a good idea to believe in
the tenets, and behave according to the rules of, that organization. It's
simply the ethical thing to do. you have forgotten again that this is a
requirement for people of all faiths who work at and attend BYU. Yes, it is
mostly LDS, but not all by any means. I'd say that a full third of my
professors were NOT Mormon.
> * Few foreign citizens are aware that the Mormon Church is not
> predominantly "The American Church," but only a minority church.
Few foreign citizens are aware that we exist at all, bub. But we ARE
attempting to change that.
>It is
> not a mainstream American church, nor does the Mormon "American church
> uphold the American democratic ideals that many foreigners admire.
> Instead of American democratic ideals, the Mormon Church is governed by
> a monarchical style of administration, in which the head of the church,
> the "President," assisted by apostles and other General Authorities,
> makes all appointments and decisions of the church.
Have you EVER heard of the separation of church and state? And have you EVER
heard of God asking His people to ELECT a prophet?
......and there is that LDS women voting earlier than other women thing...
> * Mormon women are taught that men, through the power of the priesthood,
> also provide the path for them to communicate with God. Men, who are the
> priesthood holders, according to doctrine, have mystical powers (not
> given to women) to heal the sick and to remove evil spirits from them.
That's not quite right, y'know, but why quibble about one 'not quite right'
thing among this bouquet of inaccuracy and spin?
> *Spirits waiting to enter mortal existence was another one of Joseph
> Smith's creations arising from his remarkable imagination. The idea, no
> doubt, had the ulterior motive of increasing membership in his church by
> encouraging members to have large families. Smith's desire to expand the
> membership of his church has resulted in great burdens being place upon
> young married women, who need this time to gain an education or training
> for a vocation that would improve their economic positions in life.
> Instead, they are tied down to bearing and raising more children.
......and yet there is that bit about Mormon women voting earlier than any
other women, and the part about being doctors and lawyers and business
leaders before it was considered OK for, say, Baptist women in other areas
of the country.
>
> * By creating the priesthood, Joseph Smith was able to provide a
> framework from which the church would grow and also prevent defectors.
It's also.....the priesthood.
> Within this organization is a system that provides constant vigilance
> upon members to pressure them to remain in the church. It is not unlike
> the Communist spying system which held the Russian and surrounding
> smaller nations' peoples under the Communist dictatorship of the
> Proletariat for almost a century.
>
> * Because of long indoctrination, frequent social interaction in the
> church, and overseeing by the priesthood, former members find leaving
> the Mormon Church accompanied by trauma, psychological problems and
> social disorganization. This is especially so if a member of the church
> has been born into a family that is active in the church, and has grown
> to adulthood while a member. To understand why it is so difficult to
> leave the church, even if one has a strong desire to do so, it is
> important to know about the intense propagandizing, reinforcement,
> social controls and the priesthood "watch" that insure members "toe the
> line" regarding church regulations and doctrine.
It is difficult to leave any church or belief system that one's family is
involved in, be it Methodist, Catholic, Islaam, Jewish, Mormon or the
Democratic Party. The trauma is the same. The DIFFERENCE is that while many
other religions officially shun and cast out members who leave, WE are told
that love, understanding and contact are the best ways to handle situations
like this. People are often hurt when loved ones leave, since sometimes the
one leaving gets nasty about it....but in general if there is a shunning, it
is from the one leaving, not those staying behind.
So far I see a church described that has much in common with every other
church on the planet. We teach our children about honor, and service to
others, to be faithful to God and our words, to work hard and give glory to
the Lord.
Such conspiracies should be universal among people of faith......and when I
look around me at the faithful members of other religions, I believe that I
can say that they are. Thank God.
Lee Paulson
"Diana" <di...@harmonremoveworksthis.com> wrote in message
news:bcsefo$6p5$1...@news.chatlink.com...
>
> "NoMo's" <no...@bibletrueteachings.com> wrote in message
> news:3EF15F...@bibletrueteachings.com...
> > http://www.mormonconspiracy.com/
> <snip to>
> > Excerpts From "The Mormon Conspiracy"
> >
> > * It is estimated that the assets of the Mormon Church have increased
> > from about $15 billion in 1983 to over 50 billion in 2000.
>
> Good. It means that we can care for more people, build more churches.
Wow,
> a church that wants to build churches and feed people. What a concept.
>
Or not. You don't know what happens to the money.
> > * Over sixty thousand fully-trained, adequately financed and prepared
> > Mormon missionaries are serving in all parts of the United States and in
> > over 124 countries around the world.
>
snip
> > * Because young Mormon men have served in and studied the languages of
> > foreign countries throughout the world, large numbers of them have been
> > hired by the federal Central Intelligence Agency and therefore are in
> > control of a significant amount of CIA activities.
>
> Smart CIA. So Mormons tend to speak more languages and be a little more
> aquainted with the peoples of the world than the normal, average American.
> Wow. How horrible of us. How insular of you.
It's also not a truth, I don't believe (re the CIA). LDS don't tend to
speak more languages fluently or to be more acquainted with the world that I
know of.
>
> > * A top leader of the Mormon Church has stated: "When our leaders speak
> > the thinking has been done. When they propose a plan--it is God's plan.
> > When they point the way, there is no other way that is safe. When they
> > give direction, it should mark the end of controversy."
>
> Which top leader, where and when was this said, what was the context? I'm
a
> little tired of this.
Then you know where the quotes came from. You can easily find them on
Google if not.
> However..........When Paul wrote something in the bible, is not what he
> wrote considered the final say on whatever the topic is?
I don't think so, simply because it can be interpreted differently for any
occasion. In any case, Paul is dead. The prophet is not.
>
> > * A Mormon Church radio network is in operation that is both national
> > and worldwide. The Mormon Church-owned Brigham Young University airs
> > church promoting broadcasts throughout the world. The basketball games
> > of BYU are especially attractive to South American listeners.
>
> Ah, conspiracy theorists are fun, aren't they? SOUTH AMERICA LIKES BYU
> BASKETBALL!!!!! THE WORLD ENDS IN THE MORNING!!!!
It is pretty stupid, but then most of the post was.
snip
> Yes. We pay tithing. I think it's a commandment. Biblical. Even Jesus
yelled
> at the Pharisees about it....He criticised them for doing nothing BUT hand
> over tithing; He said that they should be charitable and loving and
faithful
> to others; "this do", He said, and "not leave the other [that would be
> tithing and offerings..] undone".
I've never heard that interpretation. Tithing was an OT law, anyway.
You're suppose to give everything to God these days.
>
> > * The CES (Church Educational System) and the higher education system
> > which are shaping church members and church leaders to be "obedient,
> > intensely loyal, disciplined, submissive to ecclesiastical authority,
> > committed to official orthodoxy as defined by the hierarchy," are just
> > what the Church Authorities intend.
>
> Unlike every OTHER church that has official church SCHOOLS,
A bit of an exaggeration, don't you think?
not simply hour
> a day religious training outside the main high school campuses? (snort)
> This is getting better and better.
In any case, other parochial schools don't necessarily require religious
instruction. I know my niece goes to a Catholic high school and goes to
study hall during religious classes.
snip
snip voting women part, which we've been over before
> Would you mention that MORMONS are among the most patriotic of people,
> whatever nation they happen to live in?
Evidence of that?
snip
> ......and there is that LDS women voting earlier than other women thing...
>
Not true, Diana, and you know it. Wyoming women must have been better women
and a better state and have a better religious composition by this
rationale.
snip
> ......and yet there is that bit about Mormon women voting earlier than any
> other women,
Diana, we talked about this a couple of years ago when you claimed Utah
women had the first right to vote in the Nation. It's not true.
and the part about being doctors and lawyers and business
> leaders before it was considered OK for, say, Baptist women in other areas
Provide some references, Diana.
> of the country.
> >
> > * By creating the priesthood, Joseph Smith was able to provide a
> > framework from which the church would grow and also prevent defectors.
>
> It's also.....the priesthood.
Which is denied to those liberated women.
>
snip
> like this. People are often hurt when loved ones leave, since sometimes
the
> one leaving gets nasty about it....but in general if there is a shunning,
it
> is from the one leaving, not those staying behind.
I've certainly seen ex-LDS shunned by TBMs. I suspect it's painful for both
sides, but the TBMs seem to feel betrayed and the ex-LDS seem to feel they
have no commonality.
snip
--
Regards,
Lee, the James, uM, feminist
"It is undesirable to believe a proposition when
there is no ground whatever for supposing it true."
Bertrand Russell, 1928
Diana
"Lee Paulson" <lrpa...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:bcsgnm$mp4d4$1...@ID-146277.news.dfncis.de...
>
> "Diana" <di...@harmonremoveworksthis.com> wrote in message
> news:bcsefo$6p5$1...@news.chatlink.com...
> >
> > "NoMo's" <no...@bibletrueteachings.com> wrote in message
> > news:3EF15F...@bibletrueteachings.com...
> > > http://www.mormonconspiracy.com/
> > <snip to>
> > > Excerpts From "The Mormon Conspiracy"
> > >
> > > * It is estimated that the assets of the Mormon Church have increased
> > > from about $15 billion in 1983 to over 50 billion in 2000.
> >
> > Good. It means that we can care for more people, build more churches.
> Wow,
> > a church that wants to build churches and feed people. What a concept.
> >
>
> Or not. You don't know what happens to the money.
yes I do. I have faith, Lee. Tithing goes to building and administration
costs. Other 'offerings' go to the welfare system and to the other systems
that you designate on the wee form that you fill out every time you write a
check.
> > > * Over sixty thousand fully-trained, adequately financed and prepared
> > > Mormon missionaries are serving in all parts of the United States and
in
> > > over 124 countries around the world.
> >
> snip
>
> > > * Because young Mormon men have served in and studied the languages of
> > > foreign countries throughout the world, large numbers of them have
been
> > > hired by the federal Central Intelligence Agency and therefore are in
> > > control of a significant amount of CIA activities.
> >
> > Smart CIA. So Mormons tend to speak more languages and be a little more
> > aquainted with the peoples of the world than the normal, average
American.
> > Wow. How horrible of us. How insular of you.
>
> It's also not a truth, I don't believe (re the CIA). LDS don't tend to
> speak more languages fluently or to be more acquainted with the world that
I
> know of.
It IS true that there is a disproportionate number of LDS FBI and CIA
operatives than would be usual, given the relative numbers involved. I think
it's because we like initials.
As to the languages.......well, the part about Mormons speaking more foreign
languages than any other group of Americans of similar size is also true. It
sorta goes along with sending our kids to other countries to teach the
gospel.
On the other hand, I don't know if that's more a compliment to the Mormons
or an indictment of the rest of America. I don't know of any OTHER country
where the citizens are almost 100% unilingual; other nations have a much
higher rate of bi-and multilingual citizens. 'Course, that second language
is generally English, which may be the answer to the US attitude about it..
> > > * A top leader of the Mormon Church has stated: "When our leaders
speak
> > > the thinking has been done. When they propose a plan--it is God's
plan.
> > > When they point the way, there is no other way that is safe. When they
> > > give direction, it should mark the end of controversy."
> >
> > Which top leader, where and when was this said, what was the context?
I'm
> a
> > little tired of this.
>
> Then you know where the quotes came from. You can easily find them on
> Google if not.
yes...and it's still out of context.
>
> > However..........When Paul wrote something in the bible, is not what he
> > wrote considered the final say on whatever the topic is?
>
> I don't think so, simply because it can be interpreted differently for any
> occasion. In any case, Paul is dead. The prophet is not.
The guy who said it is.
> > > * A Mormon Church radio network is in operation that is both national
> > > and worldwide. The Mormon Church-owned Brigham Young University airs
> > > church promoting broadcasts throughout the world. The basketball games
> > > of BYU are especially attractive to South American listeners.
> >
> > Ah, conspiracy theorists are fun, aren't they? SOUTH AMERICA LIKES BYU
> > BASKETBALL!!!!! THE WORLD ENDS IN THE MORNING!!!!
>
> It is pretty stupid, but then most of the post was.
>
>
> snip
>
> > Yes. We pay tithing. I think it's a commandment. Biblical. Even Jesus
> yelled
> > at the Pharisees about it....He criticised them for doing nothing BUT
hand
> > over tithing; He said that they should be charitable and loving and
> faithful
> > to others; "this do", He said, and "not leave the other [that would be
> > tithing and offerings..] undone".
>
>
> I've never heard that interpretation.
You haven't? Both Matthew and Luke mentioned this:
Matt:23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe
of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the
law, judgment, mercy, and faith; these ought ye to have done, and not to
leave the other undone.
Luke 11:42: But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all
manner of herbs, and pass over judgement and the love of God: these ought ye
to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
First, Christ castigated the scribes and the Pharisees for paying attention
to the letter of tithes, but not the spirit; for not being righteous of
judgment, merciful, faithful and loving......but then He added "and not to
leave the other UNDONE" Seems to me that if the Pharisees were being
neglectful in mercy and in love even as they paid tithing, so are we who are
shifting the balance the other way; that if we are merciful, there is no
need to tithe. It may be more important to be merciful than to tithe, but we
ARE to tithe. Balance, and obedience to all of God's commandments, not just
to the ones that are popular at the moment, is important. We are not to
leave 'the other undone', whether 'the other' is mercy....or tithing.
> Tithing was an OT law, anyway.
> You're suppose to give everything to God these days.
If Jesus said to do it, then it's an NT commandment. And yes, we ARE
supposed to give everything to God these days.
How many actually do that? Seems to me that the least we can do, if we are
supposed to be giving everything, is hand back 10%.
It also seems to me that many people use the 'we are supposed to give
everything' as an excuse to give nothing.
> > > * The CES (Church Educational System) and the higher education system
> > > which are shaping church members and church leaders to be "obedient,
> > > intensely loyal, disciplined, submissive to ecclesiastical authority,
> > > committed to official orthodoxy as defined by the hierarchy," are just
> > > what the Church Authorities intend.
> >
> > Unlike every OTHER church that has official church SCHOOLS,
>
> A bit of an exaggeration, don't you think?
No. There isn't one single church in this community of 300,000 people that
doesn't have a private school affiliated with it, or doesn't promote the
private schools affiliated with another Christian school.
We even have a mosque that has a private school attached.
Except the Mormons. WE have 'seminary', an hour of religious instruction
given at 6AM on weekday mornings, before high school starts.
Wait; I think that the two local synagogues have a system very much like
ours. Their program is after school.
By the way, I have no problem at all with this, I think it's a good thing,
and I sometimes wish that we DID have a private high school to which I could
have sent my children.
>
> not simply hour
> > a day religious training outside the main high school campuses? (snort)
> > This is getting better and better.
>
> In any case, other parochial schools don't necessarily require religious
> instruction. I know my niece goes to a Catholic high school and goes to
> study hall during religious classes.
That's good.
> snip
> snip voting women part, which we've been over before
yes we have.
>
>
> > Would you mention that MORMONS are among the most patriotic of people,
> > whatever nation they happen to live in?
>
> Evidence of that?
You are kidding here, right? Look at the history of Utah, for crying out
loud! Can you think of ANY other people that would have put up with what we
did, and long so much to be a part of the nation that not only kicked it
out, but sent an ARMY after it?
Speaking of women voting, can you think of another people who would
voluntarily give up that right to vote just to be able to join that nation,
having faith that they would get that right back when their territory became
a state?
THAT, Lee, is patriotism above and beyond most examples of the concept.
> snip
>
> > ......and there is that LDS women voting earlier than other women
thing...
> >
>
> Not true, Diana, and you know it. Wyoming women must have been better
women
> and a better state and have a better religious composition by this
> rationale.
I didn't say UTAH women. I said MORMON women, and MORMON women have been
voting since the early 30's. 1830.
> snip
>
> > ......and yet there is that bit about Mormon women voting earlier than
any
> > other women,
>
> Diana, we talked about this a couple of years ago when you claimed Utah
> women had the first right to vote in the Nation. It's not true.
I SAID MORMON WOMEN, NOT UTAH WOMEN!!! Many of the Wyoming women were also
Mormon, Lee.
However, Utah and Wyoming were neck and neck in that area.......and only
Utah women were required to GIVE UP THAT RIGHT in order to become a state.
> and the part about being doctors and lawyers and business
> > leaders before it was considered OK for, say, Baptist women in other
areas
>
> Provide some references, Diana.
Good grief. We HAVE been over this, Lee. I think it's a little disengenuous
of you to pretend that you aren't quite aware of the program Brigham Young
had of sending women back east to medical school in a time when women
elsewhere in the nation were actively discouraged from becoming doctors,
when most medical schools did not admit women.
> > of the country.
> > >
> > > * By creating the priesthood, Joseph Smith was able to provide a
> > > framework from which the church would grow and also prevent defectors.
> >
> > It's also.....the priesthood.
>
> Which is denied to those liberated women.
Yes.
And giving birth is denied to men. What do you think the priesthood IS, Lee?
Basically, it's the right and ability to be of service to others in a
specific and special way. No priesthood holder can give himself a blessing,
or baptise himself, or confirm himself, or even bless and serve himself the
sacrament. For all these ordinances he must, as I must, ask another
priesthood holder. His ability to hold the priesthood doesn't make him
better, or more free, or smarter, or appreciated more than me any more than
my ability to give birth makes me better, stronger, more caring than him.
(well, stronger maybe..)
It's a division of time, as far as I can see, and I honestly believe that
giving the priesthood to men is God's way of attempting to make up for the
differences between us. What would men have if women held ALL the cards?
What on earth would we need 'em for? It's only bluff that's got 'em this
far, y'know. (so ok, that's a little tongue in cheek, but only a little)
> snip
> > like this. People are often hurt when loved ones leave, since sometimes
> the
> > one leaving gets nasty about it....but in general if there is a
shunning,
> it
> > is from the one leaving, not those staying behind.
>
> I've certainly seen ex-LDS shunned by TBMs. I suspect it's painful for
both
> sides, but the TBMs seem to feel betrayed and the ex-LDS seem to feel they
> have no commonality.
Unfortunately, I have seen this too. People are people. In truth though, I
have seen FAR more shunning from those who leave than from those who are
left.
dangerous 1
Diana wrote:
LOL.
D1
Lee Paulson
>
> "Lee Paulson" <lrpa...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:bcsgnm$mp4d4$1...@ID-146277.news.dfncis.de...
> >
> > "Diana" <di...@harmonremoveworksthis.com> wrote in message
> > news:bcsefo$6p5$1...@news.chatlink.com...
> > >
> > > "NoMo's" <no...@bibletrueteachings.com> wrote in message
> > > news:3EF15F...@bibletrueteachings.com...
> > > > http://www.mormonconspiracy.com/
> > > <snip to>
> > > > Excerpts From "The Mormon Conspiracy"
> > > >
> > > > * It is estimated that the assets of the Mormon Church have
increased
> > > > from about $15 billion in 1983 to over 50 billion in 2000.
> > >
> > > Good. It means that we can care for more people, build more churches.
> > Wow,
> > > a church that wants to build churches and feed people. What a concept.
> > >
> >
> > Or not. You don't know what happens to the money.
>
> yes I do.
Okay. How much money did the church spend on building materials last year?
I have faith, Lee. Tithing goes to building and administration
> costs. Other 'offerings' go to the welfare system and to the other systems
> that you designate on the wee form that you fill out every time you write
a
> check.
You don't know where the money goes, Diana. The church does not publish
financial statements for the membership to read.
Huh? There are not, to my knowledge. Can you provide a statement from
somewhere?
>
> As to the languages.......well, the part about Mormons speaking more
foreign
> languages than any other group of Americans of similar size is also true.
It
> sorta goes along with sending our kids to other countries to teach the
> gospel.
How many students major in foreign languages, Diana? How many go to school
abroad? How many have multilingual parents? You have no evidence of LDS
speaking more languages fluently than you do for what your church spends
money on or how many join the CIA.
>
..
>
> > > > * A top leader of the Mormon Church has stated: "When our leaders
> speak
> > > > the thinking has been done. When they propose a plan--it is God's
> plan.
> > > > When they point the way, there is no other way that is safe. When
they
> > > > give direction, it should mark the end of controversy."
> > >
> > > Which top leader, where and when was this said, what was the context?
> I'm
> > a
> > > little tired of this.
> >
> > Then you know where the quotes came from. You can easily find them on
> > Google if not.
>
> yes...and it's still out of context.
Then explain how.
>
> >
> > > However..........When Paul wrote something in the bible, is not what
he
> > > wrote considered the final say on whatever the topic is?
> >
> > I don't think so, simply because it can be interpreted differently for
any
> > occasion. In any case, Paul is dead. The prophet is not.
>
> The guy who said it is.
>
But you have a living prophet who could expound, expunge or exalt such
teachings.
snip
> >
> > > Yes. We pay tithing. I think it's a commandment. Biblical. Even Jesus
> > yelled
> > > at the Pharisees about it....He criticised them for doing nothing BUT
> hand
> > > over tithing; He said that they should be charitable and loving and
> > faithful
> > > to others; "this do", He said, and "not leave the other [that would be
> > > tithing and offerings..] undone".
> >
> >
> > I've never heard that interpretation.
>
> You haven't? Both Matthew and Luke mentioned this:
Seems to say other things are more important than tithing.
And why don't you? (That's a generic you.)
> How many actually do that? Seems to me that the least we can do, if we are
> supposed to be giving everything, is hand back 10%.
>
Why not do what you're supposed to? Isn't that the argument for tithing?
> It also seems to me that many people use the 'we are supposed to give
> everything' as an excuse to give nothing.
I've never seen that. But it still doesn't excuse not doing what you're
supposed to.
> snip
> > > Unlike every OTHER church that has official church SCHOOLS,
> >
> > A bit of an exaggeration, don't you think?
>
> No. There isn't one single church in this community of 300,000 people that
> doesn't have a private school affiliated with it, or doesn't promote the
> private schools affiliated with another Christian school.
I know of at least 10 churches here that don't have schools attached to
them. E.g., the Church of the Brethren don't. The Mennonites don't. The
Episcopalians don't. The synagogue for born-again Jews doesn't.
You exaggerated. Either that or your world is your community alone.
>
> We even have a mosque that has a private school attached.
>
> Except the Mormons. WE have 'seminary', an hour of religious instruction
> given at 6AM on weekday mornings, before high school starts.
>
> Wait; I think that the two local synagogues have a system very much like
> ours. Their program is after school.
>
snip
.
> >
> > In any case, other parochial schools don't necessarily require religious
> > instruction. I know my niece goes to a Catholic high school and goes to
> > study hall during religious classes.
>
> That's good.
>
> > snip
> > snip voting women part, which we've been over before
>
> yes we have.
> >
> >
> > > Would you mention that MORMONS are among the most patriotic of people,
> > > whatever nation they happen to live in?
> >
> > Evidence of that?
>
> You are kidding here, right? Look at the history of Utah, for crying out
> loud! Can you think of ANY other people that would have put up with what
we
> did, and long so much to be a part of the nation that not only kicked it
> out, but sent an ARMY after it?
Evidence, Diana? You said among the most patriotic of people in any nation.
Your thoughts and observations are not evidence.
>
> Speaking of women voting, can you think of another people who would
> voluntarily give up that right to vote just to be able to join that
nation,
> having faith that they would get that right back when their territory
became
> a state?
>
> THAT, Lee, is patriotism above and beyond most examples of the concept.
>
THAT Diana, is not only skewed, but it's not particularly patriotic.
> > snip
> >
> > > ......and there is that LDS women voting earlier than other women
> thing...
> > >
> >
> > Not true, Diana, and you know it. Wyoming women must have been better
> women
> > and a better state and have a better religious composition by this
> > rationale.
>
> I didn't say UTAH women. I said MORMON women, and MORMON women have been
> voting since the early 30's. 1830.
Oh, so it was the LDS in Wyoming that got the vote out. I see. All the
women were LDS. Get real.
>
> > snip
> >
> > > ......and yet there is that bit about Mormon women voting earlier than
> any
> > > other women,
> >
> > Diana, we talked about this a couple of years ago when you claimed Utah
> > women had the first right to vote in the Nation. It's not true.
>
> I SAID MORMON WOMEN, NOT UTAH WOMEN!!! Many of the Wyoming women were
also
> Mormon, Lee.
All of them? The LDS get the credit everywhere?
>
> However, Utah and Wyoming were neck and neck in that area.......and only
> Utah women were required to GIVE UP THAT RIGHT in order to become a state.
>
> > and the part about being doctors and lawyers and business
> > > leaders before it was considered OK for, say, Baptist women in other
> areas
> >
> > Provide some references, Diana.
>
> Good grief. We HAVE been over this, Lee. I think it's a little
disengenuous
> of you to pretend that you aren't quite aware of the program Brigham Young
> had of sending women back east to medical school in a time when women
> elsewhere in the nation were actively discouraged from becoming doctors,
> when most medical schools did not admit women.
And you ended the conversation by saying you might have exaggerated but they
were well educated. You have no evidence, Diana.
>
> > > of the country.
> > > >
> > > > * By creating the priesthood, Joseph Smith was able to provide a
> > > > framework from which the church would grow and also prevent
defectors.
> > >
> > > It's also.....the priesthood.
> >
> > Which is denied to those liberated women.
>
> Yes.
>
> And giving birth is denied to men. What do you think the priesthood IS,
Lee?
It's not childbirth, which is a feature of biology. Holding the priesthood
is a feature of the church.
> Basically, it's the right and ability to be of service to others in a
> specific and special way. No priesthood holder can give himself a
blessing,
> or baptise himself, or confirm himself, or even bless and serve himself
the
> sacrament. For all these ordinances he must, as I must, ask another
> priesthood holder. His ability to hold the priesthood doesn't make him
> better, or more free, or smarter, or appreciated more than me any more
than
> my ability to give birth makes me better, stronger, more caring than him.
> (well, stronger maybe..)
This is addressed in another thread. It's alternately called a curse and a
burden or a blessing. But whatever it is, none of those liberated women are
good enough to hold it.
>
> It's a division of time, as far as I can see, and I honestly believe that
> giving the priesthood to men is God's way of attempting to make up for the
> differences between us. What would men have if women held ALL the cards?
> What on earth would we need 'em for? It's only bluff that's got 'em this
> far, y'know. (so ok, that's a little tongue in cheek, but only a little)
That is a false comparison. Childbirth and the priesthood indeed.
>
> > snip
> > > like this. People are often hurt when loved ones leave, since
sometimes
> > the
> > > one leaving gets nasty about it....but in general if there is a
> shunning,
> > it
> > > is from the one leaving, not those staying behind.
> >
> > I've certainly seen ex-LDS shunned by TBMs. I suspect it's painful for
> both
> > sides, but the TBMs seem to feel betrayed and the ex-LDS seem to feel
they
> > have no commonality.
>
> Unfortunately, I have seen this too. People are people. In truth though, I
> have seen FAR more shunning from those who leave than from those who are
> left.
>
Once again, your opinion.
Diana, I know you are proud to be LDS. I think that's great. I'm glad you
get satisfaction out of it. But I think you go overboard trying very hard
to make the LDS out to be some sort of super people who do more better and
more often than anyone else of any persuasion. I know that could just be
your opinion. But to state these things as fact is foolishness.
Lee Paulson
"dangerous 1" <dange...@dangerous1.com> wrote in message
news:3EF1EBE3...@dangerous1.com...
>
>
> Diana wrote:
>
> > "Lee Paulson" <lrpa...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> > news:bcsgnm$mp4d4$1...@ID-146277.news.dfncis.de...
> > >
> > > "Diana" <di...@harmonremoveworksthis.com> wrote in message
> > > news:bcsefo$6p5$1...@news.chatlink.com...
> > > >
> > > > "NoMo's" <no...@bibletrueteachings.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:3EF15F...@bibletrueteachings.com...
> > > > > http://www.mormonconspiracy.com/
> > > > <snip to>
> > > > > Excerpts From "The Mormon Conspiracy"
> > > > >
And full of citations and evidence too.
Wait! I think I feel a chorus of "Oh, Columbia the Gem of the Ocean,"
coming on! I know all the words to it by virtue of going to a public school
because my mother's church didn't have a school attached to it. We had to
stand and face the flag in our nonpatriotic way, but at least we didn't have
to pray.
dangerous 1
Lee Paulson wrote:
We've seen before that Diana's version of history is slightly skewed. The
mormons weren't kicked out of the U.S. of course. They left so they could do
their goofy polygamy thing without having the law scowling at them. And having
the army traveling out here to kick brigham young's butt is hardly proof of
patriotism either.
Next, she'll probably claim that the MMM was an indication that we just wanted
to be a part of this great US of A.
D1
Diana
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Paulson" <lrpa...@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: alt.religion.mormon,alt.religion.christian
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 10:34 AM
Subject: Re: "The Mormon Conspiracy" -- Best selling book reveals TRUTH
about this dangerous sect
<snip to>
>
> And full of citations and evidence too.
You didn't like my reference to the facts here, about the US sending and
army after the Mormons (Johnsons' Army) or Brigham Young sending women back
east to medical school, or the fact that Utah women gave up their right to
vote in order to become a state, having faith that the guys would give it
right back once statehood was achieved (a faith that wasn't misplaced,
btw..) or the fact that the guy who wrote that quote to which you refered
(the one you didn't give a source for, by the way, yourself) is as dead as
Paul is, or any thing else?
The thing is, Lee, I've GIVEN you all the stats behind the medical school
and Mormon women voting before others and all the other things. YOU are the
one pretending here, not me.
> Wait! I think I feel a chorus of "Oh, Columbia the Gem of the Ocean,"
> coming on! I know all the words to it by virtue of going to a public
school
> because my mother's church didn't have a school attached to it. We had to
> stand and face the flag in our nonpatriotic way, but at least we didn't
have
> to pray.
How nice. I learned the same song in precisely the same way, from public
schools in Idaho and Utah and California. What the flip are you attempting
to pull here?
Diana
<snip>
>
> We've seen before that Diana's version of history is slightly skewed. The
> mormons weren't kicked out of the U.S. of course.
Gov. Boggs Extermination Order? Ring a bell?
> They left so they could do
> their goofy polygamy thing without having the law scowling at them. And
having
> the army traveling out here to kick brigham young's butt is hardly proof
of
> patriotism either.
No. Wanting to join a country that would DO that is patriotism. You have a
reading problem? I didn't say having the army being sent after us was an
indication of patriotism. I SAID that wanting to join a nation even after
they sent an army after them is patriotism. You might want to dial back the
'skewed history' charge if you can't even get the post of five minutes ago
right, especially when you quoted the whole thing in your reply.
Just to remind you, here 'tis again:
"You are kidding here, right? Look at the history of Utah, for crying out
loud! Can you think of ANY other people that would have put up with what we
did, and long so much to be a part of the nation that not only kicked it
out, but sent an ARMY after it?"
> Next, she'll probably claim that the MMM was an indication that we just
wanted
> to be a part of this great US of A.
>
> D1
(snort)
Now I know I won the debate here; your response is to not respond with
reason or civil discourse; the only thing you can do is put the "LOL" in.
That really is an admission that you have no argument to make, no logical,
reasonable or intelligent response. The final kicker here is that you put
the MMM in. I figure that you are skunked; you have no response. Now all it
lacks is that you will bring Hitler into this and bam.......you will have
admitted total, complete and ignoble defeat.
Good grief.
Not Important
book about it. (Unless it is a work of fiction, with a made up name.)
"NoMo's" <no...@bibletrueteachings.com> wrote in message
news:3EF15F...@bibletrueteachings.com...
Diana
"Not Important" <anon...@secret.org> wrote in message
news:vf42e2...@news.supernews.com...
> Anyone who thinks there is a "Mormon Church" is not qualified to write a
> book about it. (Unless it is a work of fiction, with a made up name.)
<snip>
Oh, I don't know. I think that there may be a "Mormon" church, that group of
churches who share either a belief either in the Book of Mormon or in Joseph
Smith Jr as a prophet. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints would
be, by far, the largest sect among them, but not the only one.
Now me, I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints,
call myself a 'Mormon" for short just like a Baptist would call himself a
Christian.....
So for me it would be Christian/Mormon/LDS, just as it would be,
oh..Christian/Baptist/Southern Baptist or Christian/Episcopalian(or Church
of England..)/ high (or low) church... it's all sets and subsets.
exmo
>
> Anyone who thinks there is a "Mormon Church" is not qualified to write a
> book about it. (Unless it is a work of fiction, with a made up name.)
Right. And I bet you have a couple of CDs at home containing favorite
hymns sung by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints Tabernacle
Choir.
Jason Hardy
> http://www.mormonconspiracy.com/
>
> "The Mormon Conspiracy" A Review of Present Day and Historical
> Conspiracies by the Mormon (also known as LDS) Church to Mormonize
> America and the World.
>
> A very comprehensive volume dealing with issues that most others who
> have written about the Mormon Church have left untouched, namely the
> political ambitions of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints
> and how they have become successful toward this goal, unnoticed by the
> majority of Americans. He has captured the "spirit of Mormonism" and
> understood the internal structure amazingly well without ever having
> been a Mormon. Dr. Wood's research and conclusions show originality and
> give helpful conclusions which open the reader's mind to see the true
> nature and plan of the Mormon Church for America-and the world.
>
>
> Excerpts From “The Mormon Conspiracy”
>
<snip>
I have a simple policy--if your conspiracy theory does not involve black
helicopters, I can't take it seriously. And I did not see so much as a
single mention of them here.
Jason H.
--
łYou know that youąre dead?˛ I managed to stammer.
łOf course. Died of a heart attack, February 23rd, 1890.˛ He smiled slyly.
łItąs in all the history books.˛
--"Alone With Rittenhouse's Ghost," in _Ghostbreakers: Sinister Sleuths_.
Winslow
> "Lee Paulson" <lrpa...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:bcsgnm$mp4d4$1...@ID-146277.news.dfncis.de...
> >
> > "Diana" <di...@harmonremoveworksthis.com> wrote in message
> > news:bcsefo$6p5$1...@news.chatlink.com...
> > >
> > > "NoMo's" <no...@bibletrueteachings.com> wrote in message
> > > news:3EF15F...@bibletrueteachings.com...
> > > > http://www.mormonconspiracy.com/
> <snip to>
> > > > Excerpts From "The Mormon Conspiracy"
> > > >
> > > > * It is estimated that the assets of the Mormon Church have increased
> > > > from about $15 billion in 1983 to over 50 billion in 2000.
> > >
> > > Good. It means that we can care for more people, build more churches.
> Wow,
> > > a church that wants to build churches and feed people. What a concept.
> > >
> >
> > Or not. You don't know what happens to the money.
>
> yes I do. I have faith, Lee.
Newsflash: "faith" isn't "knowing", despite the twisted vernacular of Utah.
-W
gatsby
>this dangerous sect
>Date: 6/19/03 14:01 Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <3EF225...@freeatlast.com>
Did you ever read "A Mormon From Cradle to Grave". A very good book supportive
of the LDS Church. LDS members use "Mormon" to refer to themselves quite a
bit.
Even missionaries refer to themselves, at first, as "Mormon" missionaries. I
have never heard an LDS Church member refer to the "Mormon Church" however.
BTW I have several CDs, cassettes and vinyl LPs by the Mormon Tabernacle Choir.
I love their singing, especially "A Mighty Fortress is Our God", "Battle Hymn
of the Republic" and "Come Come Ye Saints".
I also think that some Mormon Temples are beautiful from the outside,
especially the one in Washington D.C.
But that doesn't make me a believer in any LDS doctrine.
Cheers.
G. (gatsby)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------
All countries are good. Some are better than others. That's all.
All people are good. Some are better than others. That's all.
Gary Nichols
Diana
"Winslow" <winsl...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:30f591be.03061...@posting.google.com...
><snip>
> > >
> > > Or not. You don't know what happens to the money.
> >
> > yes I do. I have faith, Lee.
>
> Newsflash: "faith" isn't "knowing", despite the twisted vernacular of
Utah.
You are correct. I don't have access to the account books, and therefore I
don't KNOW, the way you seem to insist we should.
On the other hand, I don't KNOW that the money Lockheed has paid me every
month for the last ten years is going to be paid to me next month, but I am
going to act as if it will, based on my past experience with the bank and
with Lockheed. That is faith, based on evidence. I can, without much
contradiction, state that I know it's going to be there. Even you wouldn't
be too upset at my statement of trust in this.
In the same manner, I believe the evidence regarding where my tithing money
goes is adequate to base my actions upon, and to be able to say 'I know'
where it goes. We pay tithing. Buildings get built, missionaries get sent
and paid for, the church pays the bills. If they don't get that from
tithing, then where do they get it? (shrug) Since there is very little
evidence that the church spends that money elsewhere, I think that there is
enough here for a jury verdict of where tithing monies go....where the
church says it goes.....and less than no evidence to show that it goes
elsewhere.
Methinks you people are looking a little too hard for something to
criticize.
AnthonyPaul
>this dangerous sect
>Date: 6/19/03 5:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <30f591be.03061...@posting.google.com>
*Faith* is as much *knowing* as we are allowed to possess without out-and-out
*knowing* first hand.
Anthony
>-W
Dangerous1
di...@harmonremoveworksthis.com wrote on 6/19/03 12:31 PM:
>
> "dangerous 1" <dange...@dangerous1.com> wrote in message
> news:3EF1F7EC...@dangerous1.com...
> <snip>
>
>>
>> We've seen before that Diana's version of history is slightly skewed. The
>> mormons weren't kicked out of the U.S. of course.
>
> Gov. Boggs Extermination Order? Ring a bell?
A state governor can kick a group of people out of the U.S.?
LOL.
>
>> They left so they could do
>> their goofy polygamy thing without having the law scowling at them. And
> having
>> the army traveling out here to kick brigham young's butt is hardly proof
> of
>> patriotism either.
>
> No. Wanting to join a country that would DO that is patriotism. You have a
> reading problem? I didn't say having the army being sent after us was an
> indication of patriotism. I SAID that wanting to join a nation even after
> they sent an army after them is patriotism. You might want to dial back the
> 'skewed history' charge if you can't even get the post of five minutes ago
> right, especially when you quoted the whole thing in your reply.
>
> Just to remind you, here 'tis again:
>
> "You are kidding here, right? Look at the history of Utah, for crying out
> loud! Can you think of ANY other people that would have put up with what we
> did, and long so much to be a part of the nation that not only kicked it
> out, but sent an ARMY after it?"
A governor of a state can kick a group of people out of the U.S.?
LOL
>
>
>> Next, she'll probably claim that the MMM was an indication that we just
> wanted
>> to be a part of this great US of A.
>>
>> D1
>
> (snort)
>
> Now I know I won the debate here; your response is to not respond with
> reason or civil discourse; the only thing you can do is put the "LOL" in.
> That really is an admission that you have no argument to make, no logical,
> reasonable or intelligent response. The final kicker here is that you put
> the MMM in. I figure that you are skunked; you have no response. Now all it
> lacks is that you will bring Hitler into this and bam.......you will have
> admitted total, complete and ignoble defeat.
>
> Good grief.
>
>
LOL
--
Best,
Dangerous1
Don Marchant
Nothing defines humans better than their willingness
to do irrational things in the pursuit of phenomenally
unlikely payoffs. This is the principle behind lotteries,
dating, and religion.
-- "The Dilbert Principle"
Stormin Mormon
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
www.mormons.org
.
.
"NoMo's" <no...@bibletrueteachings.com> wrote in message
news:3EF15F...@bibletrueteachings.com...
http://www.mormonconspiracy.com/
<http://www.Latter-day Saintconspiracy.com/>
"The Latter-day Saint Conspiracy" A Review of Present Day and Historical
Conspiracies by the Latter-day Saint (also known as LDS) Church to
Latter-day Saintize
America and the World.
A very comprehensive volume dealing with issues that most others who
have written about the The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints have
left untouched, namely the
spiritual manefestations of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints
and how they have become successful toward this goal, unnoticed by the
majority of Americans. He has captured the "spirit of Latter-day Saintism"
and
understood the internal structure amazingly well without ever having
been a Latter-day Saint. Dr's research and conclusions show originality and
give helpful conclusions which open the reader's mind to see the true
nature and plan of the The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints for
America-and the world.
Excerpts From "The Latter-day Saint Conspiracy"
* It is estimated that the assets of the The Church of Jesus Christ of
Latter-day Saints have increased
from about $15 billion in 1983 to over 50 billion in 2000.
* Over sixty thousand fully-trained, adequately financed and prepared
Latter-day Saint missionaries are serving in all parts of the United States
and in
over 124 countries around the world.
* Because young Latter-day Saint men have served in and studied the
languages of
foreign countries throughout the world, large numbers of them have been
hired by the federal Central Intelligence Agency and therefore are in
control of a significant amount of CIA activities.
* A top leader of the The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has
stated: "When our leaders speak
the thinking has been done. When they propose a plan--it is God's plan.
When they point the way, there is no other way that is safe. When they
give direction, it should mark the end of controversy." (We won't give you a
date, or reference, though).
* A The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints radio network is in
operation that is both national
and worldwide. The The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints-owned
Brigham Young University airs
church promoting broadcasts throughout the world. The basketball games
of BYU are especially attractive to South American listeners.
* The church utilizes radio and television stations throughout the
United States to broadcast "Home Front Series" offering to send
listeners free copies of the KJV of the Bible or the "Book of Latter-day
Saint and
family-value videos. They are given toll-free phone numbers to call for
these. When they arrive, they come with two Latter-day Saint missionaries
"attached," wanting an appointment to talk to families.
* Since the church hierarchy "hold the keys to the temple," members must
keep the commandments in order to get a temple
recommend that allows entrance therein. Even parents of the bride and
groom must have a temple recommend to attend weddings of their sons or
daughters. And since members must have a temple recommend from their
bishop (a trusted, faithful servant of the church), also signed by the
stake president in order to be allowed to enter the temple, a recommend
becomes a powerful tool that the Authorities use in determining compliance
with the laws and rules of the church, including the required ten
percent tithing. This explains why Church Authorities have been building
temples at a record pace in recent years. Temples help LDS members improve
their spirituality.
* The CES (Church Educational System) and the higher education system
which are shaping church members and church leaders to be "schooled in the
ways of the Lord" are just
what the Church Authorities intend.
* We live in a pluralistic society encompassing many nationalities,
religions and cultures. Most of us believe in individualism and free
thinking. From this pluralistic society our laws have been developed.
That may not be pleasing to all, but our laws have been accepted by the
majority. Within this society, we have individuals with the necessary
leadership abilities to maintain and improve our freedoms. Hopefully, we
have the capability to prevent the control of our society by an
organization that would limit our individual freedoms and democracy.
Since it is believed that the Latter-day Saint General Authorities recognize
agency and free choice, we must hope that they will succeed.
*Students who are admitted and professors who are employed at Brigham
Young University must adhere to the university policy that requires
annual recommendation letters from local Latter-day Saint bishops verifying
that
these persons have continuing temple recommends. Receiving and
continuing the temple recommend requires that the member certify that
one is loyal to church leaders and is faithful to church teachings.
Since nine of the First presidency and the Quorum of Twelve Apostles are
members of the thirteen-member BYU Board of Trustees, the church
hierarchy insures that the university professors and students comply
with church doctrine.
* Few foreign citizens are aware that the The Church of Jesus Christ of
Latter-day Saints is not predominantly "The American Church," but only a
minority church. It is
not a mainstream American church, nor does the Latter-day Saint "American
church
uphold the American democratic ideals that many foreigners admire.
Instead of American democratic ideals, the The Church of Jesus Christ of
Latter-day Saints is governed by
a monarchical style of administration, in which the head of the church,
the "President," assisted by apostles and other General Authorities,
makes all appointments and decisions of the church.
* Latter-day Saint women are taught that men, through the power of the
priesthood,
oversee and guide the church. However, women are also quite capable to
communicate with God. Women can pray and read and study scriptures and
receive personal revelation as well as men. Men, who are the priesthood
holders, have powers (not
given to women) to heal the sick and to remove evil spirits from them.
*Spirits waiting to enter mortal existence was another one of Joseph
Smith's revelations. The revelation had the effect of increasing membership
in his church by encouraging members to have large families. Smith's desire
to expand the
membership of his church has resulted in great blessings for
young married women, who are not seeking secular fame by education or
training
for a vocation that would improve their secular economic positions in life.
Instead, they are engaging in the most important calling on Earth, bearing
and raising more children.
* By receiving the priesthood from previous priesthood holders, Joseph Smith
was able to provide a framework from which the church would grow and also
help retain converts.
Within this organization is a system that provides constant vigilance
upon members to encourage them to remain in the church. .
* Because of long contact, former members find leaving
the The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints accompanied by trauma,
psychological problems and
social disorganization. This is because of the loss of the Spirit. This is
especially so if a member of the church
has been born into a family that is active in the church, and has grown
to adulthood while a member. To understand why it is so difficult to
leave the church, even if one has a strong desire to do so, it is
important to know about the intense gifts of the Spirit which members enjoy.
Steve Dufour
with lots of others including those saying the Scientologists,
Moonies, and lizard people from outer space are conspiring to take
over the world.
> http://www.mormonconspiracy.com/
>
> "The Mormon Conspiracy" A Review of Present Day and Historical
> Conspiracies by the Mormon (also known as LDS) Church to Mormonize
> America and the World.
>
> A very comprehensive volume dealing with issues that most others who
> have written about the Mormon Church have left untouched, namely the
> political ambitions of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints
> and how they have become successful toward this goal, unnoticed by the
> majority of Americans. He has captured the "spirit of Mormonism" and
> understood the internal structure amazingly well without ever having
> been a Mormon. Dr. Wood's research and conclusions show originality and
> give helpful conclusions which open the reader's mind to see the true
> nature and plan of the Mormon Church for America-and the world.
>
>
> Excerpts From ?The Mormon Conspiracy?
>
> * It is estimated that the assets of the Mormon Church have increased
> from about $15 billion in 1983 to over 50 billion in 2000.
>
> * Over sixty thousand fully-trained, adequately financed and prepared
> Mormon missionaries are serving in all parts of the United States and in
> over 124 countries around the world.
>
> * Because young Mormon men have served in and studied the languages of
> foreign countries throughout the world, large numbers of them have been
> hired by the federal Central Intelligence Agency and therefore are in
> control of a significant amount of CIA activities.
>
> * A top leader of the Mormon Church has stated: ?When our leaders speak
> the thinking has been done. When they propose a plan--it is God?s plan.
> When they point the way, there is no other way that is safe. When they
> give direction, it should mark the end of controversy.?
>
> * A Mormon Church radio network is in operation that is both national
> and worldwide. The Mormon Church-owned Brigham Young University airs
> church promoting broadcasts throughout the world. The basketball games
> of BYU are especially attractive to South American listeners.
>
> * The church utilizes radio and television stations throughout the
> United States to broadcast ?Home Front Series? offering to send
> listeners free copies of the KJV of the Bible or the ?Book of Mormon and
> family-value videos. They are given toll-free phone numbers to call for
> these. When they arrive, they come with two Mormon missionaries
> ?attached,? wanting an appointment to talk to families.
>
> * Since the church hierarchy ?hold the keys to the temple,? members must
> remain loyal and obedient to the church in order to get a temple
> recommend that allows entrance therein. Even parents of the bride and
> groom must have a temple recommend to attend weddings of their sons or
> daughters. And since members must have a temple recommend from their
> bishop (a trusted, faithful servant of the church), also signed by the
> stake president in order to be allowed to enter the temple, a recommend
> becomes a powerful tool that the Authorities use in obtaining compliance
> with the laws and rules of the church, including the required ten
> percent tithing. This explains why Church Authorities have been building
> temples at a record pace in recent years.
>
> * The CES (Church Educational System) and the higher education system
> which are shaping church members and church leaders to be ?obedient,
> intensely loyal, disciplined, submissive to ecclesiastical authority,
> committed to official orthodoxy as defined by the hierarchy,? are just
> predominantly ?The American Church,? but only a minority church. It is
> not a mainstream American church, nor does the Mormon ?American church
> uphold the American democratic ideals that many foreigners admire.
> Instead of American democratic ideals, the Mormon Church is governed by
> a monarchical style of administration, in which the head of the church,
> the ?President,? assisted by apostles and other General Authorities,
> makes all appointments and decisions of the church.
>
> * Mormon women are taught that men, through the power of the priesthood,
> also provide the path for them to communicate with God. Men, who are the
> priesthood holders, according to doctrine, have mystical powers (not
> given to women) to heal the sick and to remove evil spirits from them.
>
> *Spirits waiting to enter mortal existence was another one of Joseph
> Smith?s creations arising from his remarkable imagination. The idea, no
> doubt, had the ulterior motive of increasing membership in his church by
> encouraging members to have large families. Smith?s desire to expand the
> membership of his church has resulted in great burdens being place upon
> young married women, who need this time to gain an education or training
> for a vocation that would improve their economic positions in life.
> Instead, they are tied down to bearing and raising more children.
>
> * By creating the priesthood, Joseph Smith was able to provide a
> framework from which the church would grow and also prevent defectors.
> Within this organization is a system that provides constant vigilance
> upon members to pressure them to remain in the church. It is not unlike
> the Communist spying system which held the Russian and surrounding
> smaller nations? peoples under the Communist dictatorship of the
> Proletariat for almost a century.
>
> * Because of long indoctrination, frequent social interaction in the
> church, and overseeing by the priesthood, former members find leaving
> the Mormon Church accompanied by trauma, psychological problems and
> social disorganization. This is especially so if a member of the church
> has been born into a family that is active in the church, and has grown
> to adulthood while a member. To understand why it is so difficult to
> leave the church, even if one has a strong desire to do so, it is
> important to know about the intense propagandizing, reinforcement,
> social controls and the priesthood ?watch? that insure members ?toe the
> line? regarding church regulations and doctrine.
exmo
> Even missionaries refer to themselves, at first, as "Mormon" missionaries. I
> have never heard an LDS Church member refer to the "Mormon Church" however.
Eh. Six of one, half dozen of the other.
> BTW I have several CDs, cassettes and vinyl LPs by the Mormon Tabernacle Choir.
> I love their singing, especially "A Mighty Fortress is Our God", "Battle Hymn
> of the Republic" and "Come Come Ye Saints".
Oh yeah. Great make-out music. ;)
> I also think that some Mormon Temples are beautiful from the outside,
> especially the one in Washington D.C.
Whited sepulchres, my friend, whited sepulchres . . .
exmo
>
> Changed a few of the typos.
Thanx a bunch.
Lee Paulson
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lee Paulson" <lrpa...@earthlink.net>
> Newsgroups: alt.religion.mormon,alt.religion.christian
> Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 10:34 AM
> Subject: Re: "The Mormon Conspiracy" -- Best selling book reveals TRUTH
> about this dangerous sect
> <snip to>
> >
> > And full of citations and evidence too.
>
> You didn't like my reference to the facts here, about the US sending and
> army after the Mormons (Johnsons' Army) or Brigham Young sending women
back
> east to medical school, or the fact that Utah women gave up their right to
> vote in order to become a state, having faith that the guys would give it
> right back once statehood was achieved (a faith that wasn't misplaced,
> btw..) or the fact that the guy who wrote that quote to which you refered
> (the one you didn't give a source for, by the way, yourself) is as dead as
> Paul is, or any thing else?
>
> The thing is, Lee, I've GIVEN you all the stats behind the medical school
> and Mormon women voting before others and all the other things. YOU are
the
> one pretending here, not me.
>
You, Diana, rarely post any facts at all. Where are the facts above, Diana?
Because you say it's true makes it true? Okay. How many LDS women became
lawyers and doctors before any other women in the US? Just one fact, Diana.
Give me one fact to corroborate your statements.
> > Wait! I think I feel a chorus of "Oh, Columbia the Gem of the Ocean,"
> > coming on! I know all the words to it by virtue of going to a public
> school
> > because my mother's church didn't have a school attached to it. We had
to
> > stand and face the flag in our nonpatriotic way, but at least we didn't
> have
> > to pray.
>
> How nice. I learned the same song in precisely the same way, from public
> schools in Idaho and Utah and California. What the flip are you attempting
> to pull here?
>
You snipped your very own comments about parochial schools. Good work,
Diana.
Diana
"Dangerous1" <dange...@dangerous1.com> wrote in message
news:BB17C7DD.3D91%dange...@dangerous1.com...
In actuality, he shouldn't be able to, but he did. Remember that the
Extermination Order, which was not rescinded until 1976, stated that it was
legal to kill on sight any Mormon in the state after a certain date. There
was no mention of waiting to see if the Mormon was armed, or adult....if it
was a Mormon, you could kill it.
"The Mormons must be treated as enemies, and must be exterminated or driven
from the State if necessary"
......and then he sent the state militia. I would call that 'kicking people
out", especially since at the time, the United States pretty much ended at
the Missourri state border.
In 1976 Governor Bond rescinded and apologized for this order with the
following words:
WHEREAS, on October 27, 1838, the Governor of the State of Missouri, Lilburn
W. Boggs, signed an order calling for the extermination or expulsion of
Mormons from the State of Missouri; and
WHEREAS, Governor Boggs' order clearly contravened the rights to life,
liberty, property and religious freedom as guaranteed by the Constitution of
the United States, as well as the Constitution of the State of Missouri; and
WHEREAS, in this bicentennial year as we reflect on our nation's
heritage, the exercise of religious freedom is without question one of the
basic tenets of our free democratic republic;
Now, THEREFORE, I, CHRISTOPHER S. BOND, Governor of the State of
Missouri, by virtue of the authority vested in me by the Constitution and
the laws of the State of Missouri, do hereby order as follows: Expressing on
behalf of all Missourians our deep regret for the injustice and undue
suffering which was caused by the 1838 order, I hereby rescind Executive
Order Number 44, dated October 27, 1838, issued by Governor W. Boggs.
Now.....g'head, giggle.
Diana
From the Salt Lake Tribune:
"Brigham Young took an enlightened view of women physicians. As early as
January 1868, he recommended training women in anatomy, surgery, chemistry
and physiology.
"The time has come for women to come forth as doctors in these valleys,"
Young announced in a general epistle to the church."
"We want sister physicians that can officiate in any capacity that the
gentlemen are called upon to officiate," said Eliza Roxey Snow Smith Young,
"and unless they educate themselves the gentlemen that are flocking in our
midst will do it."
A few Mormon women already had remarkable medical careers. Patty
Bartlett Sessions, famous as the "Mother of Mormon Midwifery," delivered
3,997 babies in her career -- and lost few of them.
Swiss convert Nette Anna Furrer Cardon graduated as a physician from
Geneva Hospital and later studied at Leipzig and Constantinople before
crossing the plains in 1856.
Women founded their first formal medical organization in Utah in 1851 as
the Female Council of Health. It met at least twice a month at the home of
Brigham Young's first mother-in-law.
At October conference in 1873, Young announced he was sending Utah women
to eastern universities to train as physicians. Some of the most remarkable
women in the territory answered the call, and the next fall Romania Pratt,
widow of Apostle Parley P. Pratt, enrolled in the Woman's Medical College of
Pennsylvania. Ellis Shipp joined her in 1875, working her way through school
as a seamstress until graduation in 1883.
The thing that makes this remarkable isn't the numbers; it's the support.
Eastern and non-Mormon women who wished to be doctors had to fight the
'system' to become so. Mormon women were supported, encouraged and honored
for doing so.
And I have told you this before, Lee, WITH the facts to back it up, just as
I have done right here, right now. Your claiming that I don't is simply
false to fact.
> > > Wait! I think I feel a chorus of "Oh, Columbia the Gem of the Ocean,"
> > > coming on! I know all the words to it by virtue of going to a public
> > school
> > > because my mother's church didn't have a school attached to it. We
had
> to
> > > stand and face the flag in our nonpatriotic way, but at least we
didn't
> > have
> > > to pray.
> >
> > How nice. I learned the same song in precisely the same way, from public
> > schools in Idaho and Utah and California. What the flip are you
attempting
> > to pull here?
> >
>
> You snipped your very own comments about parochial schools. Good work,
> Diana.
You mean, the part where I said that the church didn't HAVE parochial
schools, but that I sometimes wish it did so that I could have sent my kids
to one? THOSE comments?
I am confused. But then YOU snipped the part about your niece attending a
Catholic high school but not being required to take religious classes.
Lee Paulson
No it's not. You have yet to post factual evidence.
Numbers please. Not a Trib article. How many Mormon women were awarded MDs
compared with women from other religious faiths?
A simple question, the answer to which might substantiate your claim. But
you have NEVER posted those sorts of numbers. Just apologetic silliness in
the vein of if it's Mormon it's got to be good.
Diana
> >
> > You didn't like my reference to the facts here, about the US sending and
> > army after the Mormons (Johnsons' Army) or Brigham Young sending women
> back
> > east to medical school, or the fact that Utah women gave up their right
to
> > vote in order to become a state, having faith that the guys would give
it
> > right back once statehood was achieved (a faith that wasn't misplaced,
> > btw..) or the fact that the guy who wrote that quote to which you
refered
> > (the one you didn't give a source for, by the way, yourself) is as dead
as
> > Paul is, or any thing else?
> >
> > The thing is, Lee, I've GIVEN you all the stats behind the medical
school
> > and Mormon women voting before others and all the other things. YOU are
> the
> > one pretending here, not me.
> >
>
> You, Diana, rarely post any facts at all. Where are the facts above,
Diana?
> Because you say it's true makes it true? Okay. How many LDS women became
> lawyers and doctors before any other women in the US? Just one fact,
Diana.
> Give me one fact to corroborate your statements.
Lee, do you really mean to tell me that you don't believe that "Johnson's
Army" existed, or that Brigham Young sent women back to medical school at a
time when most other American churches and American society as a whole was
rather disapproving of the idea of women physicians? I HAVE provided the
facts for you on these things, y'know, a couple of years ago. We had quite a
conversation about 'em. You know about Ellis Ship, for instance.
......and if you don't know about Johnsons' Army, you certainly have no
business criticizing Mormons for any act of theirs. A leeetle knowledge of
history is a good thing when you are discussing it, don't you think? As to
when the Mormon women got the vote.....I've told you this one too, but here
it is AGAIN.
On February 12th, 1870, with Young's backing, the Utah territorial
legislature granted women the right to vote. Two days later, they exercised
it. Young's niece voted first, followed by one of his daughters.
"Utah became only the second state or territory to give women the right to
vote, trailing Wyoming by just two months. But it was first in the nation to
provide the chance. Just two days after the act was approved, Seraph Young,
a niece of Brigham Young, cast her ballot during municipal elections in Salt
Lake City to become the first woman in the U.S. legally to vote."--David L.
Bigler, ed. Forgotten Kingdom: The Mormon Theocracy in the American West,
1847-1896. Spokane: The Arthur H. Clark Company, 1998, 283.
Of course, the real difference between the two states, Wyoming and Utah, is
that Wyoming refused to become a state unless women could vote and the US
Congress and Senate went along with it. Statehood AND the right of Wyoming
women to vote happened in 1890. However, in 1896 that same Congress refused
to allow Utah to become a state unless the right of women to vote was
rescinded first. The women VOTED to give that right up so that Utah could
become a state...and once the state was accepted into the union, the right
was given back to them at the state constitutional convention.
Oh....finally....the writer of that obscure message in the home teaching
lesson of the 1945 Ward teachers message and the Improvement Era of the same
date is most definitely dead. Just like Paul.
these are FACTS, Lee. indisputable facts that I have mentioned before. Do I
have to put all of them in a signature file so that they will appear in
every single post before you will admit that I have TOLD you these things,
and PROVEN them to be true?
(looking) yes, I believe I covered everything.
Winslow
Not at all. Words mean specific things. "Having faith" simply isn't
the same as "Knowing". Utahnics has blurred the difference, because
every Sunday in F&T you get some whimpering, teary-eyed mobot standing
up and saying "I KNOW the church is true!" because for some reason (I
suspect one-upsmanship) "Believing with all my heart" just isn't good
enough. Fact is, knowledge and faith aren't equivalent.
-W
Diana
<snip>
> Not at all. Words mean specific things. "Having faith" simply isn't
> the same as "Knowing". Utahnics has blurred the difference, because
> every Sunday in F&T you get some whimpering, teary-eyed mobot standing
> up and saying "I KNOW the church is true!" because for some reason (I
> suspect one-upsmanship) "Believing with all my heart" just isn't good
> enough. Fact is, knowledge and faith aren't equivalent.
>
If you are going to be that picky, then we have a problem. Nobody can know
anything to the extent you want, Winslow. We don't know that the sun is
going to rise in the morning, for instance, until it actually does.
Still, considering the amount of evidence we have regarding the laws of
physics, the odds are REAL good that it will. Still, we don't KNOW it until
it does.
So where do we draw the line between faith and knowledge? If in reality we
cannot KNOW something until it has happened, then everything we do in life
is based on faith; faith in greater or lesser amounts of evidence. The
difference between you and the lady in Fast and Testimony meeting who stands
up and says 'I know the church is true".....is that you demand more evidence
than she does.
That doesn't mean that you are automatically correct. It's still a matter of
faith, yours and hers.
By the way, that's how I put it when I stand in Testimony meeting and talk.
I say "I believe that the church is true the way I believe that the sun will
rise in the morning". Most people would call that equivalent to saying 'I
know the church is true'...just wordier.
(grin)
AnthonyPaul
>this dangerous sect
>Date: 6/20/03 4:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <bcvpi2$di0$1...@news.chatlink.com>
Yeah, anything to eat up time :)
Anthony
"I have become the man that I have hated the most - the man in the mirror."
charles
snip
> > Methinks you people are looking a little too hard for something to
> > criticize.
>
> Not at all. Words mean specific things. "Having faith" simply isn't
> the same as "Knowing".
You are correct, but you are also incorrect. You can have knowledge
of certain things and still have faith abt others. I can know that
prayer works, but still not have that level of knowledge regarding
tithing.
You might want to check out Alma 32, starting with verse 17.
Dangerous1
di...@harmonremoveworksthis.com wrote on 6/20/03 7:19 AM:
LOL.
In Texas it is illegal to shoot a a buffalo from the second story of a
hotel.
Were there any mormon missionaries in MO. between 1838 and 1976?
You've hardly proven that the mormons were / kicked out / of the United
States of America. That was the point you were trying to make wasn't it?
People shouldn't drink and post.
--
Cheers,
Don Marchant
dangerous 1
D1 at Dangerous1.com
think global, act loco
Dangerous1
di...@harmonremoveworksthis.com wrote on 6/20/03 7:29 AM:
Yeah, that's why they had a Woman's Medical College of Pennsylvania and the
mormon women had to return back east to go to school
LOL.
Dangerous1
lrpa...@earthlink.net wrote on 6/20/03 8:39 AM:
Indeed. Everyone knows the Trib was hatched in Hell and delivered by
Lucifer himself.
--
Cheers,
Don M
Dangerous 1
I was only joking. Really.
Diana
<snip>
> > The thing that makes this remarkable isn't the numbers; it's the
support.
> > Eastern and non-Mormon women who wished to be doctors had to fight the
> > 'system' to become so.
>
> Yeah, that's why they had a Woman's Medical College of Pennsylvania and
the
> mormon women had to return back east to go to school
>
> LOL.
Don, you truly are an ass. There WERE no medical schools in Utah territory.
Of any stripe, male or female. There weren't enough physicians to teach one.
MOST women who wished to be physicians at this time had to attend a woman's
only college; Elizabeth Blackwell, the first woman to graduate from medical
school in the United States, became a doctor in 1848; she was the only woman
accepted in her university, and that university did not accept another
woman, not even Ms. Blackwells' sister, for many years after that.
And Elizabeth Blackwell graduated at the head of her class.
There WERE medical schools closer, I believe; St. Louis and San Francisco
had them. Sorta. BUT they did not admit women, Mormon or not.
Just a question; do you actually have a point to make or are you being inane
on purpose?
Dangerous1
di...@harmonremoveworksthis.com wrote on 6/20/03 9:10 AM:
LOL.
> As to
> when the Mormon women got the vote.....I've told you this one too, but here
> it is AGAIN.
>
> On February 12th, 1870, with Young's backing, the Utah territorial
> legislature granted women the right to vote. Two days later, they exercised
> it. Young's niece voted first, followed by one of his daughters.
>
> "Utah became only the second state or territory to give women the right to
> vote, trailing Wyoming by just two months.
How does that prove your claim:
"While you are at it, would you mention that MORMON women had the vote a
full generation before the women of the rest of the world, " ?
> But it was first in the nation to
> provide the chance. Just two days after the act was approved, Seraph Young,
> a niece of Brigham Young, cast her ballot during municipal elections in Salt
> Lake City to become the first woman in the U.S. legally to vote."--David L.
> Bigler, ed. Forgotten Kingdom: The Mormon Theocracy in the American West,
> 1847-1896. Spokane: The Arthur H. Clark Company, 1998, 283.
>
> Of course, the real difference between the two states, Wyoming and Utah, is
> that Wyoming refused to become a state unless women could vote and the US
> Congress and Senate went along with it. Statehood AND the right of Wyoming
> women to vote happened in 1890.
> However, in 1896 that same Congress refused
> to allow Utah to become a state unless the right of women to vote was
> rescinded first. The women VOTED to give that right up so that Utah could
> become a state...and once the state was accepted into the union, the right
> was given back to them at the state constitutional convention.
>
> Oh....finally....the writer of that obscure message in the home teaching
> lesson of the 1945 Ward teachers message and the Improvement Era of the same
> date is most definitely dead. Just like Paul.
>
>
> these are FACTS, Lee. indisputable facts that I have mentioned before. Do I
> have to put all of them in a signature file so that they will appear in
> every single post before you will admit that I have TOLD you these things,
> and PROVEN them to be true?
New Jersey granted women the vote in it's state constitution in 1776.
Have a nice day.
Dangerous1
di...@harmonremoveworksthis.com wrote on 6/20/03 8:34 PM:
>
> "Dangerous1" <dange...@dangerous1.com> wrote in message
> news:BB191A61.3E78%dange...@dangerous1.com...
> <snip>
>
>>> The thing that makes this remarkable isn't the numbers; it's the
> support.
>>> Eastern and non-Mormon women who wished to be doctors had to fight the
>>> 'system' to become so.
>>
>> Yeah, that's why they had a Woman's Medical College of Pennsylvania and
> the
>> mormon women had to return back east to go to school
>>
>> LOL.
>
> Don, you truly are an ass. There WERE no medical schools in Utah territory.
I know. That's why I said they had to go back east.
> Of any stripe, male or female. There weren't enough physicians to teach one.
> MOST women who wished to be physicians at this time had to attend a woman's
> only college;
I know. Pennsylvania had one, as I noted. Back where women had to "fight
the system" and go to the Woman's Medical College.
Are you thru arguing with youself now?
So where are we? Eastern women and non mormon women had to "fight the
system" and attend colleges that were set up specifically for them to take
advantage of while the mormon gals, who had all this wonderful support for
their endeavors had to return to the country they were "kicked out of" and
go to school with a bunch of evildoers, away from home and family .
Does that about sum up your "argument"?
fromtheearth
ROFL!
It's all about the money...so obvious a 3 year old can tell...s h a l l o w
is what it is called...LOL
peace man
"Steve Dufour" <stevej...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:744cc401.03061...@posting.google.com...
Diana
<snip to>
> So where are we? Eastern women and non mormon women had to "fight the
> system" and attend colleges that were set up specifically for them to take
> advantage of while the mormon gals, who had all this wonderful support
for
> their endeavors had to return to the country they were "kicked out of" and
> go to school with a bunch of evildoers, away from home and family .
>
> Does that about sum up your "argument"?
Yes.
The 'system' that non-Mormon women had to face included the disapproval of
their families, generally, CERTAINLY of the society around them including
their religious leaders and peer groups. Mormon women were actively
encouraged by THEIR religious leaders and peer groups and families. In other
words, they were encouraged by the society in which they lived, while
non-Mormon women were actively discouraged by the society in which they
lived.
It is not the fault of the MORMONS that they had to go to a women's only
medical school in Pennsylvania, Don. Were it up to Brigham Young and the
people who formed the society in which these women lived, they could have
gone to Harvard or any other of the medical schools available at the time.
So YOUR laughter, being at the thought that Mormons had any redeeming
qualities at all, your inference that I am lying about Brigham Young sending
women to medical school.....and why is that, Don? I have proven that this
happened, with dates and names. What's your problem? Is it that you don't
believe that we did that, or that we did and were somehow laughable because
we did?
You really need to make your mind up exactly what it is you don't like.
Is it that you don't BELIEVE that we sent women to medical school and
approved of such activity AS A CULTURE considerably before the rest of the
country, and thus is flying in the face of the propaganda that Mormons women
don't think for themselves and have always been downtrodden and second class
citizens or something?
Or is it that you don't like the idea that this was done?
Or does it matter? Do you dislike Mormonism because of what you think we
have done, or do you dislike what we do because we are Mormons? Seems to
me, considering your reaction to this subject, it's the latter; doesn't seem
to matter to you whether Mormon women could vote or not, or became doctors
or not; you'd find something risible about either thing; not because there
is anything wrong with either attitude, but simply because Mormons held it.
..............and that, Don, is bigotry, pure, simple and classic.
Dangerous1
di...@harmonremoveworksthis.com wrote on 6/21/03 4:25 PM:
>
> "Dangerous1" <dange...@dangerous1.com> wrote in message
> news:BB193755.3E95%dange...@dangerous1.com...
> <snip to>
>
>> So where are we? Eastern women and non mormon women had to "fight the
>> system" and attend colleges that were set up specifically for them to take
>> advantage of while the mormon gals, who had all this wonderful support
> for
>> their endeavors had to return to the country they were "kicked out of" and
>> go to school with a bunch of evildoers, away from home and family .
>>
>> Does that about sum up your "argument"?
>
> Yes.
LOL.
> The 'system' that non-Mormon women had to face included the disapproval of
> their families, generally, CERTAINLY of the society around them including
> their religious leaders and peer groups.
Even though special colleges were built for them.
Got it.
> Mormon women were actively
> encouraged by THEIR religious leaders and peer groups and families. In other
> words, they were encouraged by the society in which they lived, while
> non-Mormon women were actively discouraged by the society in which they
> lived.
So why didn't they build them colleges?
>
> It is not the fault of the MORMONS that they had to go to a women's only
> medical school in Pennsylvania, Don. Were it up to Brigham Young and the
> people who formed the society in which these women lived, they could have
> gone to Harvard or any other of the medical schools available at the time.
>
> So YOUR laughter, being at the thought that Mormons had any redeeming
> qualities at all, your inference that I am lying about Brigham Young sending
> women to medical school.....and why is that, Don? I have proven that this
> happened, with dates and names. What's your problem? Is it that you don't
> believe that we did that, or that we did and were somehow laughable because
> we did?
>
> You really need to make your mind up exactly what it is you don't like.
I've never said that I didn't like anything. I'm finding your whole
argument quite humorous, actually.
>
> Is it that you don't BELIEVE that we sent women to medical school and
> approved of such activity AS A CULTURE considerably before the rest of the
> country,
No, not at all.
>and thus is flying in the face of the propaganda that Mormons women
> don't think for themselves and have always been downtrodden and second class
> citizens or something?
I've never claimed that. LOL
>
> Or is it that you don't like the idea that this was done?
You like to jump to conclusions alot, don't you?
>
> Or does it matter?
No, it doesn't matter. I simply am amused at your always trying to paint
mormons as perfect even if you have to make up stories.
> Do you dislike Mormonism because of what you think we
> have done,
I know what you've done.
> or do you dislike what we do because we are Mormons?
That's stupid. What do mormons do that others don't? Very little.
> Seems to
> me, considering your reaction to this subject, it's the latter; doesn't seem
> to matter to you whether Mormon women could vote or not, or became doctors
> or not; you'd find something risible about either thing; not because there
> is anything wrong with either attitude, but simply because Mormons held it.
You're an idiot.
>
> ..............and that, Don, is bigotry, pure, simple and classic.
My reaction to this subject is humor at your argument that non mormons had
to "buck the system" while special schools were built for them, while at
the same time the mormons who were wonderfully supported by their culture
had no schools and had to go elsewhere. And your trying to turn my
amusement into hatred and bigotry shows what an idiot you are.
Diana
> in article bcv7k2$4k6$1...@news.chatlink.com, Diana at
> di...@harmonremoveworksthis.com wrote on 6/20/03 9:10 AM:
>
> > As to
> > when the Mormon women got the vote.....I've told you this one too, but
here
> > it is AGAIN.
> >
> > On February 12th, 1870, with Young's backing, the Utah territorial
> > legislature granted women the right to vote. Two days later, they
exercised
> > it. Young's niece voted first, followed by one of his daughters.
> >
> > "Utah became only the second state or territory to give women the right
to
> > vote, trailing Wyoming by just two months.
>
>
>
> How does that prove your claim:
>
> "While you are at it, would you mention that MORMON women had the vote a
> full generation before the women of the rest of the world, " ?
Pay attention; LDS women had the vote in 1870.
I HOPE that we both agree on this date.
According to
http://www.thewbalchannel.com/womenshistory/1979287/detail.html,
1920: The 19th Amendment is adopted on Aug. 26 and the women of the United
States are finally granted suffrage.
You may also check the Constitution of the United States of America,
specifically the 19th amendment, for further corroboration.
According to
http://www.adams.edu/academics/art_letters/hgp/civ/111/5suffragegb.html.
Women were given the right to vote in Great Britain for the first time in
1918.
According to the Grollier encyclopedia, the first country in the world to
grant women the right to vote in national elections was New Zealand, in
1893. According to the same article, Canada gave women the vote in 1918,
Mexico in 1953, Scandanavia (which was considerably more forward thinking
that most countries in regard to women's rights...) gave women the right to
vote in municiple elections in 1863, but not in national elections until the
years 1916-1919, depending upon the individual country.
Germany: after WWI, but women could not run for office in Nazi controlled
Germany.
Italy: the end of WWII.
France: 1944
all other nations either gave women the right to vote in the latter half of
the twentieth century or else still haven't given them the right to vote.
Let's do the math here: mormon women voted at LEAST 23 years before the
women of New Zealand, before any other country of the world except
Scandanavia,
That is a generation. You know, birth to the age of giving birth to another
generation?
They voted approximately fifty years earlier than the women of the rest of
the United States, Great Britain and Germany.
that's TWO generations.
Everybody else had to wait yet another generation.
That's how it proves my claim.
Good for them. Scandinavian women could vote in municipal elections in 1863.
Which means absolutely nothing to the point, does it?
Dangerous1
di...@harmonremoveworksthis.com wrote on 6/21/03 5:25 PM:
>
> "Dangerous1" <dange...@dangerous1.com> wrote in message
> news:BB1926FD.3E7C%dange...@dangerous1.com...
>> in article bcv7k2$4k6$1...@news.chatlink.com, Diana at
>> di...@harmonremoveworksthis.com wrote on 6/20/03 9:10 AM:
>>
>> <snip>
>
>>> As to
>>> when the Mormon women got the vote.....I've told you this one too, but
> here
>>> it is AGAIN.
>>>
>>> On February 12th, 1870, with Young's backing, the Utah territorial
>>> legislature granted women the right to vote. Two days later, they
> exercised
>>> it. Young's niece voted first, followed by one of his daughters.
>>>
>>> "Utah became only the second state or territory to give women the right
> to
>>> vote, trailing Wyoming by just two months.
>>
>>
>>
>> How does that prove your claim:
>>
>> "While you are at it, would you mention that MORMON women had the vote a
>> full generation before the women of the rest of the world, " ?
Isn't wyoming part of the rest of the world? Bigotry against us cowboys?
(snip a bunch of stuff that doesn't relate)
>> New Jersey granted women the vote in it's state constitution in 1776.
>> Have a nice day.
>
> Good for them. Scandinavian women could vote in municipal elections in 1863.
>
> Which means absolutely nothing to the point, does it?
It means everything to the point.
Your claim that mormon women had the vote a full generation before the rest
of the world is wrong.
Aren't scandinavian women women? Mine is.
Aren't Jew Jersey women women? Didn't 1776 come before 1879?
Is this too simple for your superior mormon intellect?
Steve Dufour
> LOL Steve....HAHAHAHA....lizard people???
>
> ROFL!
>
> It's all about the money...so obvious a 3 year old can tell...s h a l l o w
> is what it is called...LOL
>
> peace man
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm................
Steve Dufour
> Your claim that mormon women had the vote a full generation before the rest
> of the world is wrong.
>
> Aren't scandinavian women women? Mine is.
> Aren't Jew Jersey women women? Didn't 1776 come before 1879?
>
>
> Is this too simple for your superior mormon intellect?
I think she meant "the rest of the world with a few minor exceptions".
But then I'm not a Mormon so I don't have that superior mormon
intellect. :-) Didn't women in Iceland have the vote in Medieval
times?
Diana
<snip to>
> No, it doesn't matter. I simply am amused at your always trying to paint
> mormons as perfect even if you have to make up stories.
Actually, Don, I don't. I neither believe that Mormons are perfect. Far from
it. However, considering that people like you are so fond of portraying
Mormons as the scum of the earth, a little defense of a pretty good batch of
people isn't out of line.Nor do I MAKE UP STORIES. Every word I have written
here is not only absolutely true, but I have backed it up with dates and
times.
However, I have finally figured out that my annoyance with your amusment is
simply fueling that amusement, and that your laughter isn't a bona fide
reaction to anything funny, but merely a noise to make when you have nothing
to say.....
But then I have never portrayed MYSELF as being especially brilliant or
quick on the uptake.
<snip>
> > Seems to
> > me, considering your reaction to this subject, it's the latter; doesn't
seem
> > to matter to you whether Mormon women could vote or not, or became
doctors
> > or not; you'd find something risible about either thing; not because
there
> > is anything wrong with either attitude, but simply because Mormons held
it.
>
>
> You're an idiot.
]
You are right. I am, letting you get to me.
.........but I am also correct. You have amply proven here in this
conversation that it doesn't matter WHAT they do, you will not give Mormons
credit for anything. Whatever it was we have done, your position on it will
be that if WE did it, then it wasn't a good thing, or if you can't say that
you will claim that we did it too little, or too late, or because of
pressure from outside.
Did you think before you wrote that bit of silliness, Don? You DID just
infer that the existance of a womens medical college proved that society in
general supported and approved of women physicians during that era. ...and
you tell me *I'M* making up stories? (snort)
>
> >
> > ..............and that, Don, is bigotry, pure, simple and classic.
>
>
>
> My reaction to this subject is humor at your argument that non mormons had
> to "buck the system" while special schools were built for them, while at
> the same time the mormons who were wonderfully supported by their culture
> had no schools and had to go elsewhere. And your trying to turn my
> amusement into hatred and bigotry shows what an idiot you are.
Say WHAT???
That's a little bit like saying that apartheid was done out of respect for
the South African natives. Are you a proponent of the 'separate but equal'
idea of schools, Don? Separate drinking fountains? The only reason there was
a women's medical college was because no other university would accept women
into their medical programs. The reason Mormon women went back east to
medical school was the same reason every other westerner, male or female,
went back east to medical school; there weren't any in the west, except for
a 10 student 'pilot' program in San Francisco and one in New Orleans...that
didn't accept women..
The big difference here is two phrases, "because of' and 'in spite of'.
The women's medical college of Pennsylvania was built BY WOMEN to educate
women who wanted to become doctors in spite of public and religious
disapproval and the refusal of medical schools to admit women. Mormon women
went there BECAUSE OF the support and encouragement they got from THEIR
society and religion. Medical schools are not something you found in
pioneering society, ANY pioneering society, Don. That's something that has
to wait until there are enough doctors to actually teach in one?
......but the Mormons did, indeed, establish a medical school in Utah.
Sister Pratt, one of the women who went back east, began the first medical
school in Salt Lake City in 1877. For women. The MEN still had to go back
east.
It took awhile for Utah to get a first tier medical school going. Another 45
years, actually. However, that's not bad, comparatively. Not the best record
for a pioneer society, but not awful, either.
Diana
Actually, ENGLISH women had the vote in Medieval times. Well, as much of a
vote as any other property owner had...Didn't last long, but for awhile
there......(sigh)
Dangerous1
di...@harmonremoveworksthis.com wrote on 6/22/03 8:25 AM:
>
> "Dangerous1" <dange...@dangerous1.com> wrote in message
> news:BB1A3E6B.3F7D%dange...@dangerous1.com...
> <snip to>
>> No, it doesn't matter. I simply am amused at your always trying to paint
>> mormons as perfect even if you have to make up stories.
>
> Actually, Don, I don't. I neither believe that Mormons are perfect. Far from
> it. However, considering that people like you are so fond of portraying
> Mormons as the scum of the earth,
"People like you" is the talk of a bigot.
>a little defense of a pretty good batch of
> people isn't out of line.Nor do I MAKE UP STORIES. Every word I have written
> here is not only absolutely true, but I have backed it up with dates and
> times.
Mormon women did not have the vote a full generation before the rest of the
world, Diana. Correcting you on this is not portraying mormons as the scum
of the earth. It is simply pointing out that you are wrong about something.
Get over it.
--
Best,
Dangerous1
Don Marchant
Nothing defines humans better than their willingness
to do irrational things in the pursuit of phenomenally
unlikely payoffs. This is the principle behind lotteries,
dating, and religion.
-- "The Dilbert Principle"
Diana
> > times.
>
> Mormon women did not have the vote a full generation before the rest of
the
> world, Diana. Correcting you on this is not portraying mormons as the
scum
> of the earth. It is simply pointing out that you are wrong about
something.
>
> Get over it.
OK, Mormon women had the vote a full generation before all all the women of
the world but Scandanavia and New Zealand. Mormon women had the vote only
thirteen years before New Zealand and Scancanavian women could vote in
municipal elections (but not national ones..) a few years earlier.
Mormon women had the vote a full generation before all the rest of the women
of the world.
.........and that, my dear Don, is still pretty remarkable.
And I'm not the bigot. You are......you are the one who isn't willing to
give Mormons credit for anything at all.
Gary Moore
and are hungry for more sensationalized crap.
Dangerous1
di...@harmonremoveworksthis.com wrote on 6/22/03 11:34 AM:
> <snip>
>
>
>>> times.
>>
>> Mormon women did not have the vote a full generation before the rest of
> the
>> world, Diana. Correcting you on this is not portraying mormons as the
> scum
>> of the earth. It is simply pointing out that you are wrong about
> something.
>>
>> Get over it.
>
> OK, Mormon women had the vote a full generation before all all the women of
> the world but Scandanavia and New Zealand. Mormon women had the vote only
> thirteen years before New Zealand and Scancanavian women could vote in
> municipal elections (but not national ones..) a few years earlier.
You forgot Wyoming.
TheJordan6
> > Would you mention that MORMONS are among the most patriotic of people,
> > whatever nation they happen to live in?
Lee Paulson asked:
> Evidence of that?
Diana wrote:
>You are kidding here, right? Look at the history of Utah, for crying out
>loud! Can you think of ANY other people that would have put up with what we
>did, and long so much to be a part of the nation that not only kicked it
>out, but sent an ARMY after it?
Diana, you continue to display your ignorance of Mormon history. The Mormons
were "kicked out" of Missouri and Illinois not because of "religious
persecution," but because of their 14-year culture of criminal activity and
civil disobedience.
When the Mormons left Illinois in 1846, they did not "long to be a part of the
nation." They had opportunities to settle in Texas, Oregon, or California, but
Brigham Young picked Utah specifically because it was outside of U. S.
territory at the time. Young chose the area because he wanted to practice
polygamy, which was illegal in the U. S., and so he could build an empire with
him as its theocratic dictator.
Even though Utah territory became U. S. property in 1848 as a result of the
Mexican War---and Brigham Young had been appointed territorial governor by
President Millard Fillmore in 1850---Young and his Mormon minions refused to
accept the authority of federal overseers from that time forward.
Because of Young's insubordination, the U. S. government began taking steps to
remove Young as governor as early as 1855. In response to those moves, Brigham
Young haughtily declared:
"It is reported that I have said that whoever the President appoints, I am
still governor. I repeat it, all hell cannot remove me. I am still your
governor. I will still rule this people until God himself permits another to
take my place." ("New York Herald," May 4, 1855.)
As Young and the Mormons continued to defy, harass, and intimidate federal
officials---while also overseeing the Mormon system of hostility, robbery, and
murders upon American citizens, which culminated in the Mountain Meadows
Massacre---President James Buchanan sent 2500 Army troops to depose the
insurrectionist Young and escort a new governor into the territory. Young
responded to that by declaring the Mormons' "independence" from the United
States on September 6, 1857 (the day before the MMM):
"President B. Young in his sermon declared that the thread was cut between us
and the U. S. and that the Almighty recognized us as a free and independent
people and that no officer appointed by government should come and rule over us
from this time forth." (Diary of Hosea Stout, Sept. 6, 1857.)
And of course, to prevent his ejection from office, Young directed his men to
keep the Army contingent and the new governor from entering the SL valley by
burning their supply wagons and running off their stock, which nearly caused
the death of some 2500 troops who were forced to winter in the Wyoming
mountains.
But the following spring, the troops and the new governor arrived; Young and 60
of his subordinates were charged with treason against the United States, and
were allowed to remain free upon promising to end their insurrection.
But after serving only three years, the new governor, Alfred Cumming, resigned
in disgust. Historian David Bigler relates:
"When Sir Richard Burton came to Great Salt Lake in 1860, the English explorer
and writer found Governor Cumming disheartened because his 'scrupulous and
conscientious impartiality' had only served to alienate other federal
officials, who considered him to be a pacifist and had won no acceptance of him
from the people. Still firmly in command was the territory's true governor,
Brigham Young, while other federal officials, civil and military, had either
quit in disgust or were getting ready to go. That year, Cumming reported that
Utah was 'bordering on anarchy'.....Deeply disillusioned, the federal
bureaucrat later reported his labors had been 'onerous and embarrassing' and
asked for a leave of absence until a new appointee 'shall have arrived and
qualified.' When asked how a successor would get along, he replied, 'Get
along?
Well enough, if he will do nothing. There is nothing to do. Alfred Cumming is
Governor of the Territory, but Brigham Young is Governor of the people.' "
(Bigler, "Forgotten Kingdom," p. 197-98.)
Thus we see that Brigham Young was still the dictator of the Mormon people even
though he was no longer governor, and he remained so until his death in 1877.
These facts belie your claims that the Mormons "are among the most patriotic of
people, whatever nation they happen to live in."
And after Young's death, Mormon church leaders continued to rebel against the
government in many other instances, such as practicing polygamy for some 40
years after it had been made illegal, by using a system of marked electoral
ballots which guaranteed a nearly 100% vote for candidates which had been
picked by church leaders, and by censuring and/or excommunicating church
members who dissented from church leaders' political positions and exercised
their constitutional rights to vote for whom they chose to (such as apostle
Moses Thatcher, who was kicked out of the Q12 in 1897 and disfellowshipped for
that very reason.)
In fact, Mormons in general did not even begin to become "patriotic" until the
"Great Accommodation" era, which began in 1890 with the bogus "Manifesto" and
the achievement of statehood in 1896.
In short, for the first 70 or so years of the LDS church's existence, the
organization was characterized more as lawless, insurrectionist, and defiant,
more than it could be described as "patriotic."
The reason early-20th-century church leaders decided to remake their church's
image into a law-abiding, "patriotic" entity was because they realized they
could attract more potential converts that way.
The fact that you, a lifelong Mormon, are so ignorant of these facts is
testament to the power of Mormon-written revisionist history.
Randy J.
>Speaking of women voting, can you think of another people who would
>voluntarily give up that right to vote just to be able to join that nation,
>having faith that they would get that right back when their territory became
>a state?
>
>THAT, Lee, is patriotism above and beyond most examples of the concept.
>
>> snip
>>
>> > ......and there is that LDS women voting earlier than other women
>thing...
>> >
>>
>> Not true, Diana, and you know it. Wyomin
TheJordan6
>Date: 6/19/2003 1:31 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: <bct15a$grr$1...@news.chatlink.com>
>
>
>"dangerous 1" <dange...@dangerous1.com> wrote in message
>news:3EF1F7EC...@dangerous1.com...
><snip>
>
>>
>> We've seen before that Diana's version of history is slightly skewed. The
>> mormons weren't kicked out of the U.S. of course.
>Gov. Boggs Extermination Order? Ring a bell?
Readers,
Diana Newman, a lifelong Mormon, continues to operate under the delusion that
Governor Lilburn Boggs ordered the Mormons evicted from Missouri for no other
reasons than "religious persecution."
I have provided Diana with the historical documentation numerous times which
clearly shows that Boggs issued his "extermination order" specifically because
the Mormons were "waging open war against the people of this state."
For those readers who suffer the same delusions as Diana, here once again is a
synopsis of the events:
Gordon B. Hinckley offered the following comments in the
April 1984 General Conference:
"According to the account given by George A. Smith, while the Saints were in
Far West, Missouri, 'the wife of Thomas B. Marsh, who was then President of the
Twelve Apostles, and Sister Harris concluded they would exchange milk, in order
to make a little larger cheese than they otherwise could. To be sure to have
justice done, it was agreed that they should not save the strippings (to
themselves), but that the milk and strippings should go all together.....Mrs.
Harris, it appeared, was faithful to the agreement and carried to Mrs. Marsh
the milk and strippings, but Mrs. Marsh, wishing to make some extra good
cheese, saved a pint of strippings from each cow and sent Mrs. Harris the milk
without the strippings. A quarrel arose, and the matter was referred to the
home teachers. They found Mrs. Marsh guilty of failure to keep her agreement.
She and her husband were upset and, 'an appeal was taken from the teacher to
the bishop, and a regular church trial was held. President Marsh did not
consider that the bishop had done him and his lady justice for they (that is,
the bishop's court) decided that the strippings were wrongfully saved, and that
the woman had violated her covenant.
'Marsh immediately took an appeal to the High Council, who investigated the
question with much patience, and,' says George A. Smith, .....'Marsh.....made
a desperate defence, but the High Council finally confirmed the bishop's
decision.....This little affair,' Brother Smith continues, 'kicked up a
considerable breeze, and Thomas B. Marsh then declared that he would sustain
the character of his wife even if he had to go to hell for it. The then
President of the Twelve Apostles, the man who should have been the first to do
justice and cause reparation to be made for wrong.....went before a magistrate
and swore that the 'Mormons' were hostile towards the state of MIssouri. That
affidavit brought from the government of Missouri an exterminating order, which
drove some 15,000 Saints from their homes and habitations.....
What a very small and trivial thing--a little cream over which two women
quarreled. But it led to, or at least was a factor in, Governor Boggs' cruel
exterminating order which drove the Saints from the state of Missouri."
("Ensign" Magazine, May 1984, p. 83.)
Note how Hinckley asserts that the "milk strippings" incident (if it even
occurred at all) was a major factor in Marsh's defection, and the resulting
Extermination Order. But were Hinckley's remarks (via George A. Smith)
anywhere close to the truth? Let's compare Hinckley's assertions to the
documented facts of history:
A "revelation" Smith produced, and published in his 1833 "Book of
Commandments," read as follows:
"For it shall come to pass, that which I spake by the mouths of my prophets
shall be fulfilled; for I will consecrate the riches of the Gentiles, unto my
people which are of the house of Israel." (BOC 44:32.)
In Smith's 1835 revision of the BOC, re-titled the "Doctrine and Covenants,"
Smith altered this verse to read:
"for I will consecrate of the riches of those who embrace my gospel among the
Gentiles unto the poor of my people who are of the house of Israel." (D&C
42:39.)
David Whitmer explained why the original version of this "revelation" had
enraged Missourians against the Mormon immigrants in 1833:
"In the spring of 1832, in Hiram, Ohio, Brothers Joseph and Sidney, and others,
concluded that the revelations should be printed in a book. A few of the
brethren -- including myself --objected to it seriously. We told them that if
the revelations were
published, the world would get the books, and it would not do; that it was not
the will of the Lord that the revelations should be published. But Brothers
Joseph and Sidney would not listen to us, and said they were going to send them
to Independence to be published. I objected to it and withstood Brothers Joseph
and Sidney to the face. Brother Joseph said as follows: "Any man who objects to
having these revelations published, shall have his part taken out of the Tree
of Life and out of the Holy City." The Spirit of God came upon me and I
prophesied to them in the name of the Lord: "That if they sent those
revelations to Independence to be published in a book, the people would come
upon them and tear down the printing press, and the church would be driven out
of Jackson county." Brothers Joseph and Sidney laughed at me. Early in the
spring of 1833, at Independence, Mo., the revelations were printed in the Book
of Commandments. Many of the books were finished and distributed among the
members of the church, and through some of the unwise brethren, the world got
hold of some of them. From that time the ill-feeling toward us began to
increase; and in the summer of 1833 the mob came upon us, tore down the
printing press, and drove the church out of Jackson county." ("An Address to
all Believers in Christ")
It's obvious that Smith altered the verse which called for the "consecration of
the riches of the Gentiles unto the house of Israel" because the publication of
such a policy had gotten the Mormons booted out of Jackson County.
Nonetheless, he and Rigdon secretly continued their advocacy of "consecrating"
the personal property of non-Mormons, as well as those of Mormon dissenters,
into his "kingdom," and that was the ultimate cause of the Mormons' final
expulsion from Missouri in 1838.
To today's Mormons, "consecration" means giving of their money or goods to the
church. In 1838, upon the failure of their Kirtland Bank and "United Order,"
Smith and Rigdon went to Missouri and again tried to institute an economic
commune. The Missouri Mormons, who had been expelled from Jackson County in
1834, were living in relative (albeit temporary) peace in Clay County, buying
land and starting farms. But the arrival of Smith and Rigdon in the spring of
1838 brought an influx of thousands more Mormons from Kirtland as well,
spilling them over into "Gentile" areas, causing new tensions. Mormon
population increased from 1,200 to 15,000 in just a few months. Having been
stung by the Kirtland failure, Smith and Rigdon implemented new policies that
they hoped would make the new commune succeed. The policy mandated that all
Mormons sign their lands over to the church, and then the church
would lease the land back to them as "stewardships." The Mormons who had
bought and developed
their lands and farms balked at the idea---among them being Cowdery, the
Whitmers, Phelps, Lyman Johnson, etc. They correctly perceived that the new
"consecration" policy was nothing more than Smith and Rigdon's latest scheme to
fleece the flock. Their refusal to sign lands over to the church prompted
Rigdon's "Salt Sermon" (which was heartily endorsed by Smith), and Rigdon's
resulting letter informing the dissenters that they must "depart before a more
fatal calamity" befell them. While the dissenters had gone to procure legal
aid to prevent Smith and Rigdon from taking their land (or their lives), the
"Danites" invaded and plundered their homes and property. So, for those
Mormons, "consecration" meant having their goods taken away by force, upon the
order of church leaders.
"A proposition was made and supported by some as being the best policy to kill
these men that they would not be capable of injuring the church. All their
measures were strenuously opposed by John Corrill and T. B. Marsh one of the
twelve apostles of the church and in consequence nothing could be effected
until the matter was taken up publicly BY THE PRESIDENCY the following (June
17th) in a large congregation..." ("Reed Peck Manuscript")
Thus, according to Peck, Marsh was already opposing Smith's and Rigdon's
heinous policies as early as June 17----four months before Marsh swore his
affidavit. That fact alone destroys the "milk strippings" business.
As many witnesses (including Thomas B. Marsh) testified in court, Smith's
intention was to "take this State,...the United States and ultimately the whole
world" for his theocratic empire. The swelling Mormon population disturbed
the non-Mormons, who had heard that the "Gentiles" were to be evicted and the
land become the Mormons' "New Jerusalem." One Missourian, William Peniston,
remarked in August that the Mormons "are a set of horse thieves, liars, and
counterfeiters. They'll swear a false oath on any occasion to save another
Mormon....no property is safe in Daviess County if they continue to pour into
this area." Tensions soon erupted into violence, with beatings, lootings and
burnings being committed on both sides. By October, believing that they had
enough manpower to "take the state," Smith and Rigdon then sent their "Danite"
forces to begin "consecrating"
from the "Gentiles" as well as the dissident "Saints," with the loot going to
support their war effort. Church historian John Whitmer reported that the
Mormon leaders claimed the stealing was justified because they were the "chosen
people":
"After they had driven us and our families, they commenced a difficulty in
Daviess County, adjoining this county, in which they began to rob and burn
houses, etc. etc., took honey which they, (the Mormons) call sweet oil, and
hogs which they call bear, and cattle which they called buffalo. Thus they
would justify themselves by saying, "We are the people of God, and all things
are God's; therefore, they are ours." (John Whitmer's "History of the Church")
John Whitmer's remarks revealed Smith's and Rigdon's true attitude: they viewed
their organization as the literal "House of Israel," and "the Kingdom of God on
Earth"; they taught the imminent return and millenial reign of Christ, wherein
all the "enemies" of the "true church" would be defeated. Since, in the
"millenium," all things on earth would be theirs, they haughtily taught their
subordinates to appropriate the property of the "Gentiles."
Mormon historian Leland Gentry admits to Mormon thefts: "The Danites were
taught to take from the Gentiles and consecrate to the Church. Nearly every
person who testified at the trial against the Mormon leaders made mention of
this fact. John Clemenson stated that 'it was frequently observed among the
troops at Diahman that the time had come when the riches of the Gentiles should
be consecrated to the Saints.' Jeremiah Myers testified that 'the consecrated
property...was dealt out to those in need' by Bishop Vinson Knight." (A
History of the Latter-Day Saints in Northern Missouri, p. 385-387.)
"Danites struck at Gallatin and two other towns, Millport and Grinding Fork.
The three onslaughts occurred simultaneously and had a crushing impact on the
Missourians who were unaccustomed to Mormon resistance. When Captains Lyman
Wight, David W. Patten, and Seymour Brunson rode into Far West at the head of
their companies, the sight of wagonloads of plunder was offensive to a number
of less aggressively inclined Saints. That night they gathered their families
together and abandoned the settlement. Among the defectors were two of
Joseph's most trusted followers, Thomas B. Marsh and Orson Hyde, both members
of the Council of Twelve Apostles. The two men fled to nearby Richmond and
blurted out everything they knew." ("Orrin Porter Rockwell," Harold Schindler,
p. 54.)
"The Mormons were two hundred and fifty men by the time they reached Daviess
County...The bulk of the forces went out in search of the gentile opposition.
They marched through three settlements, including Gallatin, repaying the
Missourians in kind, looting and firing stores, homes, and barns, before their
anger spent itself.....When they returned with their loot, many of their own
people were appalled and frightened. Thomas B. Marsh, Brigham Young's superior
as President of the Twelve, let it be known that he did not approve such
retaliation, and he left the church." ("Kingdom of the Saints", Ray B. West, p.
86.)
"There was much mysterious conversation in camps, as to plundering, and
house-burning; so much so, that I had my own notions about it; and, on one
occasion, I spoke to Mr. Smith, Jr., in the house, and told him that this
course of burning houses and plundering, by the Mormon troops, would ruin us;
that it could not be kept hid, and would bring the force of the state upon us;
that houses would be searched, and stolen property found. Smith replied to me,
in a pretty rough manner, to keep still; that I should say nothing about it;
that it would discourage the men...I saw a great deal of plunder and bee-steads
brought into camp; and I saw many persons, for many days, taking the honey out
of them; I understood this property and plunder were placed into the hands of
the bishop at Diahmon....The general teachings of the presidency were, that the
kingdom they were setting up was a temporal kingdom...that the time had come
when this kingdom was to be set up by
forcible means, if necessary. It was taught, that the time had come when the
riches of the Gentiles were to be consecrated to the true Israel."
(Testimony of George M. Hinkle, "Senate Document 189".)
"Smith replied, the time had come when he should resist all law...I heard J.
Smith remark, there was a store at Gallatin, and a grocery at Millport; and in
the morning after the conversation between Smith and Wight about resisting the
law, a plan of operations was agreed on, which was: that Captain Fearnaught,
who was present, should take a company of 100 men, or more, and go to Gallatin,
and take it that day; to take the goods out of Gallatin, bring them to Diahmon,
and burn the store...On the same day, in the evening, I saw both these
companies return; the foot company had some plunder..." (Testimony of WW
Phelps, "Senate Document 189").
From Marsh's own sworn legal affidavit of October 24, 1838:
"At the request of citizens of Ray County, I make the following
statement...Joseph Smith, the prophet, had preached a sermon in which he said
that all the Mormons who refused to take up arms, if necessary, in the
difficulties with the citizens, should be shot or otherwise put to death; and
as I was there with my family, I thought it most prudent to go and did go with
my wagon as the driver. We marched to Adam-ondi-Ahman and found no troops or
mob in Davies County....a company of about eighty Mormons, commanded by a man
fictitiously named Captain Fearnaught [apostle and Danite David Patten],
marched to Gallatin...I afterwards learned from the Mormons that they had burnt
Gallatin and that it was done by the aforesaid company
that marched there. The Mormons informed me that they had hauled away all the
goods from the store in Gallatin and deposited them at the Bishop's storehouse
at Diahmon. On the same day, [apostle and Danite] Lyman Wight marched about
eighty horsemen for Millport...The same evening a number of footmen came up
from the direction of Millport laden with property which I was informed
consisted of beds, clocks, and other household furniture...During the same
time, a company called the Fur Company were sent out to bring in fat hogs and
cattle, calling the hogs 'bears', and the cattle 'buffaloes.' They have among
them a company consisting of all that are considered true Mormons, called the
Danites, who have taken an oath to support the heads of the church in all
things that they say or do, whether right or wrong.....The plan of said Smith,
the prophet, is to take this State, and he professed to his people to intend
taking the United States, and ultimately the whole world. This is the belief
of the church, and my own opinion of the prophet's plans and intentions.....The
prophet inculcates the notion, and it is believed by every true Mormon, that
Smith's prophecies are superior to the law of the land. I have heard the
prophet say that he should yet tread down his enemies and walk over their dead
bodies; that if he was not let alone he would be a second Mahomet to this
generation, and that he would make it one gore of blood from the Rocky
Mountains to the Atlantic Ocean....."
I don't find anything about "milk strippings" in Marsh's, or any other
eyewitnesses' testimony of those events; and I have failed to find even one
mention of the alleged "milk strippings" incident in any history on the subject
by any reputable scholar. To the contrary, they all concur that the reason the
Mormons were booted out of Missouri was because of Smith and Rigdon's haughty,
belligerent attitudes and teachings; their calls for violence, their
"revelations" that "justified" their followers stealing from their neighbors;
and their boasts that their organization had a "divine right" to take the state
of Missouri for themselves, by any means necessary, including force.
Late LDS author Harold Schindler recounted the series of events that caused
Governor Boggs to issue his "Extermination Order," which came the day after the
skirmish between Missouri militiamen and Mormon "Danites" at Crooked River:
"Twenty-four hours after the Crooked River fight, Boggs, armed with the
affidavits of Marsh and Hyde plus complaints from frightened settlers
describing a wholesale Mormon rebellion, ordered two thousand militiamen from
five divisions into the field...Then Boggs received a message confirming an
earlier report of Bogart's defeat but compounding the rumors of a
massacre...this report prompted Boggs to issue his infamous 'Extermination
Order' of October 27 to General John B. Clark. In effect, the order challenged
Sidney Rigdon's Fourth of July address in which he defied the Gentiles and
threatened a 'war of extermination.' It was more than coincidence that Boggs
chose that particular word in his instruction to General Clark."
("Orrin Porter Rockwell: Man of God, Son of Thunder," Harold Schindler, pp.
56-58.)
Thus we see that the major incident which spurred Boggs to issue his
"Extermination Order" was the Crooked River skirmish, wherein several men on
both sides were killed. That event made Boggs realize that the Mormons would
not peacefully cohabit the state with non-Mormons, and since many Mormons had
taken a secret oath to obey Smith's every order, even those which called on
them to commit crimes, Boggs was forced to evict all of the Mormons from the
state.
So, in view of the documented facts, can anyone honestly believe that Thomas B.
Marsh's "real gripe" was a fight between two women over "milk strippings"?
And, was Gordon B. Hinckley being "honest with his fellow man" by using George
A. Smith's "faith-promoting" version of events, rather than objectively
relating the numerous testimonies of first-hand eyewitnesses and participants?
Of course he wasn't. Hinckley, as well as most other LDS leaders and
apologists, are not interested in relating the actual history of Mormonism;
their agenda is to spin "faith-promoting" tales that attempt to "teach a
lesson," while simultaneously obfuscating the actual facts. The average
rank-and-file Mormon, upon learning that the first president of the Q12 had
"apostasized," would naturally inquire as to the reasons for his "apostasy";
and the "milk strippings" story is propagated to conceal the actual reasons,
and to
provide an "object lesson" for Mormons sitting in Sunday School class.
>> They left so they could do
>> their goofy polygamy thing without having the law scowling at them. And
>having
>> the army traveling out here to kick brigham young's butt is hardly proof
>of
>> patriotism either.
>
>No. Wanting to join a country that would DO that is patriotism. You have a
>reading problem? I didn't say having the army being sent after us was an
>indication of patriotism. I SAID that wanting to join a nation even after
>they sent an army after them is patriotism. You might want to dial back the
>'skewed history' charge if you can't even get the post of five minutes ago
>right, especially when you quoted the whole thing in your reply.
>
>Just to remind you, here 'tis again:
>
TheJordan6
>> They left so they could do
>> their goofy polygamy thing without having the law scowling at them. And
>having
>> the army traveling out here to kick brigham young's butt is hardly proof
>of
>> patriotism either.
Diana Newman replied:
>No. Wanting to join a country that would DO that is patriotism. You have a
>reading problem? I didn't say having the army being sent after us was an
>indication of patriotism. I SAID that wanting to join a nation even after
>they sent an army after them is patriotism.
Diana, one more time:
Utah territory was made part of the U. S. in 1848. Brigham Young was appointed
governor of Utah territory by President Millard Fillmore in 1850.
After years of Mormon defiance and insurrection against the federal government,
and numerous crimes committed by Mormons against American citizens, President
James Buchanan sent Army troops to depose Young in 1857 and escort a new
governor into the territory.
Thus, contrary to your ignorant views expressed above, Utahns did not "want to
join the nation even after they sent an army after them"; Utah Territory was
ALREADY part of the nation since 1848, nine years before Buchanan sent the
army.
In fact, it was Mormon leaders who worked to have Utah made a state for
decades, in the hopes that once they acheived statehood, an all-Mormon state
legislature could make polygamy legal in the state. But the federal
government refused to make Utah a state until the Mormons promised to end
polygamy. Mormon leaders made their first motions towards that end in 1890, and
Utah was made a state in 1896.
Randy J.
You might want to dial back the
>'skewed history' charge if you can't even get the post of five minutes ago
>right, especially when you quoted the whole thing in your reply.
>
>Just to remind you, here 'tis again:
>
> "You are kidding here, right? Look at the history of Utah, for crying out
>loud! Can you think of ANY other people that would have put up with what we
>did, and long so much to be a part of the nation that not only kicked it
>out, but sent an ARMY after it?"
>
>
>> Next, she'll probably claim that the MMM was an indication that we just
>wanted
>> to be a part of this great US of A.
>>
>> D1
>
>(snort)
>
>Now I know I won the debate here; your response is to not respond with
>reason or civil discourse; the only thing you can do is put the "LOL" in.
>That really is an admission that you have no argument to make, no logical,
>reasonable or intelligent response. The final kicker here is that you put
>the MMM in. I figure that you are skunked; you have no response. Now all it
>lacks is that you will bring Hitler into this and bam.......you will have
>admitted total, complete and ignoble defeat.
>
>Good grief.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
TheJordan6
>> A governor of a state can kick a group of people out of the U.S.?
>>
>> LOL
Diana Newman wrote:
>In actuality, he shouldn't be able to, but he did. Remember that the
>Extermination Order, which was not rescinded until 1976, stated that it was
>legal to kill on sight any Mormon in the state after a certain date. There
>was no mention of waiting to see if the Mormon was armed, or adult....if it
>was a Mormon, you could kill it.
>
>"The Mormons must be treated as enemies, and must be exterminated or driven
>from the State if necessary"
Diana, please provide the total number of Mormons, and their names, who were
"killed on sight" in the state of Missouri because of Boggs' order.
>......and then he sent the state militia. I would call that 'kicking people
>out", especially since at the time, the United States pretty much ended at
>the Missourri state border.
No, the militia escorted the Mormons out of the state peacefully, ensuring that
caches of corn were provided for them to the Illinois border.
a few Mormon leaders who headed the insurrection against the state, including
Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon, were incarcerated in Liberty Jail to await
trial on murder and treason charges. However, they bribed the jailer with $600
and a jug of whiskey to let them escape to Illinois.
>In 1976 Governor Bond rescinded and apologized for this order with the
>following words:
>
>WHEREAS, on October 27, 1838, the Governor of the State of Missouri, Lilburn
>W. Boggs, signed an order calling for the extermination or expulsion of
>Mormons from the State of Missouri; and
> WHEREAS, Governor Boggs' order clearly contravened the rights to life,
>liberty, property and religious freedom as guaranteed by the Constitution of
>the United States, as well as the Constitution of the State of Missouri; and
> WHEREAS, in this bicentennial year as we reflect on our nation's
>heritage, the exercise of religious freedom is without question one of the
>basic tenets of our free democratic republic;
> Now, THEREFORE, I, CHRISTOPHER S. BOND, Governor of the State of
>Missouri, by virtue of the authority vested in me by the Constitution and
>the laws of the State of Missouri, do hereby order as follows: Expressing on
>behalf of all Missourians our deep regret for the injustice and undue
>suffering which was caused by the 1838 order, I hereby rescind Executive
>Order Number 44, dated October 27, 1838, issued by Governor W. Boggs.
>
>Now.....g'head, giggle.
<giggle giggle giggle>
Diana, please tell us:
If it was legal to "kill Mormons on sight" in Missouri until 1976, then pray
tell, how has the LDS church maintained visitors' centers, chapels,
missionaries, and thousands of church members in Missouri for decades before
that time?
Can you offer any explanation as to why my Mormon family, including my mother
and four children, were able to tour the Independence and Liberty Jail
visitors' centers in 1967, when I was 12 years old, without being shot to death
"lawfully" by Missourians?
And how about those thousands of Whitmerite, Hedrickite, and Reorganite Mormons
who have maintained churches and members in the Independence area since the
1830s, with no harm whatsoever coming to them?
Did the eeee-villll Missourians somehow forget to "shoot them on sight" all
those years?
Randy J.
TheJordan6
>Date: 6/22/2003 10:52 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: <BB1B2CCF.4002%dange...@dangerous1.com>
>
>in article bd4epn$4rv$1...@news.chatlink.com, Diana at
>di...@harmonremoveworksthis.com wrote on 6/22/03 8:25 AM:
>
>>
>> "Dangerous1" <dange...@dangerous1.com> wrote in message
>> news:BB1A3E6B.3F7D%dange...@dangerous1.com...
>> <snip to>
>>> No, it doesn't matter. I simply am amused at your always trying to paint
>>> mormons as perfect even if you have to make up stories.
>>
>> Actually, Don, I don't. I neither believe that Mormons are perfect. Far
>from
>> it. However, considering that people like you are so fond of portraying
>> Mormons as the scum of the earth,
>"People like you" is the talk of a bigot.
<chuckle> Especially when "you" is a lifelong Mormon, born and bred in the
Salt Lake Valley, a descendant of one of Joseph Smith's "plural wives," and a
former home teaching companion of Wilford Wood.
Randy J.
Dangerous1
thejo...@aol.com wrote on 6/22/03 7:07 PM:
Diana has been pretty wild this time around. She could be one of those
weepy, clingy drunks that get all sauced up and starts bawling and pounding
on the keyboard as big crocodile tears are flowing while she writes about
the persecution and trials of being a mormon.
Who knows........
Dangerous1
thejo...@aol.com wrote on 6/22/03 6:54 PM:
> Don Marchant wrote:
>
>>> They left so they could do
>>> their goofy polygamy thing without having the law scowling at them. And
>> having
>>> the army traveling out here to kick brigham young's butt is hardly proof
>> of
>>> patriotism either.
>
> Diana Newman replied:
>
>> No. Wanting to join a country that would DO that is patriotism. You have a
>> reading problem? I didn't say having the army being sent after us was an
>> indication of patriotism. I SAID that wanting to join a nation even after
>> they sent an army after them is patriotism.
>
> Diana, one more time:
It's gonna take more than that.
Dangerous1
thejo...@aol.com wrote on 6/22/03 7:11 PM:
>> From: Dangerous1 dange...@dangerous1.com
>> Date: 6/22/2003 10:52 AM Central Daylight Time
>> Message-id: <BB1B2CCF.4002%dange...@dangerous1.com>
>>
>> in article bd4epn$4rv$1...@news.chatlink.com, Diana at
>> di...@harmonremoveworksthis.com wrote on 6/22/03 8:25 AM:
>>
>>>
>>> "Dangerous1" <dange...@dangerous1.com> wrote in message
>>> news:BB1A3E6B.3F7D%dange...@dangerous1.com...
>>> <snip to>
>>>> No, it doesn't matter. I simply am amused at your always trying to paint
>>>> mormons as perfect even if you have to make up stories.
>>>
>>> Actually, Don, I don't. I neither believe that Mormons are perfect. Far
>> from
>>> it. However, considering that people like you are so fond of portraying
>>> Mormons as the scum of the earth,
>
>
>> "People like you" is the talk of a bigot.
>
> <chuckle> Especially when "you" is a lifelong Mormon, born and bred in the
> Salt Lake Valley, a descendant of one of Joseph Smith's "plural wives," and a
> former home teaching companion of Wilford Wood.
>
> Randy J.
My daughter was married in the Salt Lake temple yesterday.
I, of course, had to stand out in the rain with the rest of the wicked, but
they tell me that the deed was done.
Diana
> in article bd4pra$d53$1...@news.chatlink.com, Diana at
> di...@harmonremoveworksthis.com wrote on 6/22/03 11:34 AM:
>
> > <snip>
> >
> >
> >>> times.
> >>
> >> Mormon women did not have the vote a full generation before the rest of
> > the
> >> world, Diana. Correcting you on this is not portraying mormons as the
> > scum
> >> of the earth. It is simply pointing out that you are wrong about
> > something.
> >>
> >> Get over it.
> >
> > OK, Mormon women had the vote a full generation before all all the women
of
> > the world but Scandanavia and New Zealand. Mormon women had the vote
only
> > thirteen years before New Zealand and Scancanavian women could vote in
> > municipal elections (but not national ones..) a few years earlier.
>
>
> You forgot Wyoming.
Ah hem. I said MORMON women. Not UTAH women. There were many Mormon women in
Wyoming. Don, are you truly that insular and DUMB? UTAH was given all sorts
of hard times because the government of the United States looked at things
the same way you do; that Utah = Mormonism, and Mormonism = Utah. Therefore,
UTAH was forced to take the vote away from the women before it could become
a state. Therefore UTAH was forced to make polygamy a state constitutional
issue, the only state in the union that makes polygamy unconstitutional, by
the way.....while her neighbor to the north and east (Idaho and Wyoming)
wasn't required to do either.
But there were a bunch of Mormon women in both states. If non-Mormon women
got to vote because the Mormon women in their states got to do so,
well...that's a very good thing.
..........and don't you think for one minute that if the Mormon women in
Utah, Idaho and Wyoming weren't a major part of the economy, society and the
voting lives of the communities of all three states, the rest of the women
would have been able to vote as soon as they did. In Wyoming the campaign
for women's vote was not led by the LDS, but the women in the fore front of
the battle there certainly were supported by the LDS women in their
communities. AND the men. The pioneer society of those states was such that
frankly, if the women were NOT given that right, all hell would have broken
loose.......and that was in large part because of the influence of the
Mormons.
It has been suggested that the independent nature of the pioneer spirit is
responsible for the "early" right to vote that western women got, and that
is quite probably true. However, most of the rest of the western territories
had to wait until the early nineteen hundreds for their vote; Oregon,
Alaska, Nevada, Arizona, Montana..none of these states gave women the right
to vote before 1911. The only western territories and states that had women
voters were Wyoming, Utah and the Washington Territory.
Now WHAT did these territories and states have in common that most of the
others didn't?
Oh. yeah. Mormons.
So, OK, California had a bunch of 'em but we weren't supposed to STAY here!
Now I am not saying that Mormons are the reason Wyoming and the Washington
territory thought about and accomplished this, but it had to help that the
Mormons in those territories were not only NOT fighting it the way other
religious leaders of the area were, but were actually promoting it.
Diana
"TheJordan6" <thejo...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030622210704...@mb-m14.aol.com...
> Don Marchant wrote:
>
> >> A governor of a state can kick a group of people out of the U.S.?
> >>
> >> LOL
>
> Diana Newman wrote:
>
> >In actuality, he shouldn't be able to, but he did. Remember that the
> >Extermination Order, which was not rescinded until 1976, stated that it
was
> >legal to kill on sight any Mormon in the state after a certain date.
There
> >was no mention of waiting to see if the Mormon was armed, or adult....if
it
> >was a Mormon, you could kill it.
> >
> >"The Mormons must be treated as enemies, and must be exterminated or
driven
> >from the State if necessary"
>
> Diana, please provide the total number of Mormons, and their names, who
were
> "killed on sight" in the state of Missouri because of Boggs' order.
The TOTAL NUMBER? You are asking too much. Even one is too many. However,
'Hauns Mill" comes immediately to mind...
Do you deny that the order was written? Do you deny that the militia was
sent, first to PREVENT their leaving, and then to make certain that they
did?
The point is, the order said "eliminated or driven from the state'. Since
they LEFT, I would call that being driven. Certainly in today's courts,
being told to leave a place at gunpoint, with a written statement saying
that there would be an open season on anybody who didn't leave would be
considered coercion...and being forced out, even if nobody actually got
shot.
My point is made and you know it.
> >......and then he sent the state militia. I would call that 'kicking
people
> >out", especially since at the time, the United States pretty much ended
at
> >the Missourri state border.
>
> No, the militia escorted the Mormons out of the state peacefully, ensuring
that
> caches of corn were provided for them to the Illinois border.
Oh, they PEACEFULLY held guns on them, took their property with little or no
compensation........and left 'caches of corn'? GUESS WHOSE CORN IT WAS!!!
Because the LDS Church hasn't done so. The RLDS church did. The LDS church
went BACK some time later. The order was not enforced after the first time.
It was certainly enforced at the time it was written; the Saints were thrown
out.
>
> Can you offer any explanation as to why my Mormon family, including my
mother
> and four children, were able to tour the Independence and Liberty Jail
> visitors' centers in 1967, when I was 12 years old, without being shot to
death
> "lawfully" by Missourians?
Because Missouri was ashamed of itself? Because they chose to forget that
nasty little bit of history and thought it would simply go away?
> And how about those thousands of Whitmerite, Hedrickite, and Reorganite
Mormons
> who have maintained churches and members in the Independence area since
the
> 1830s, with no harm whatsoever coming to them?
See above.
>
> Did the eeee-villll Missourians somehow forget to "shoot them on sight"
all
> those years?
yep, that's about right. They swept the whole incident under the rug and
tried VERY hard to forget it. Just like you are trying to do now. "Gee,
Diana, After Boggs moved all those people out of the state, they haven't
done anything SINCE, right? Doesn't that mean that the original offence
wasn't done either? "
WHAT are you trying to pull?
dangerous 1
Diana wrote:
Diana is projecting again. I, being aware that voting regulations differ by
jurisdiction and not religion, would have never made a stupid claim like
"mormon women......".
You seem to be the one that is confused on that. You are the guilty one
thinking that mormonism = utah. Or do you think that voting regulations are
determined by religion instead of political boundaries?
> Therefore,
> UTAH was forced to take the vote away from the women before it could become
> a state. Therefore UTAH was forced to make polygamy a state constitutional
> issue, the only state in the union that makes polygamy unconstitutional, by
> the way.....while her neighbor to the north and east (Idaho and Wyoming)
> wasn't required to do either.
>
> But there were a bunch of Mormon women in both states. If non-Mormon women
> got to vote because the Mormon women in their states got to do so,
> well...that's a very good thing.
Wow. You think that mormon women living in Idaho were able to vote in Idaho but
non mormon women couldn't??
>
>
> ..........and don't you think for one minute that if the Mormon women in
> Utah, Idaho and Wyoming weren't a major part of the economy, society and the
> voting lives of the communities of all three states, the rest of the women
> would have been able to vote as soon as they did.
Give us a percentage breakdown of non mormon vs. mormon women during that time
period for both states and prove that you know what you are talking about.
> In Wyoming the campaign
> for women's vote was not led by the LDS, but the women in the fore front of
> the battle there certainly were supported by the LDS women in their
> communities.
No shit. That's why I laugh at your statement that the mormon women were a
major part of the "voting lives of the communities of all three states".
> AND the men. The pioneer society of those states was such that
> frankly, if the women were NOT given that right, all hell would have broken
> loose.......and that was in large part because of the influence of the
> Mormons.
Yeah, right. This is the same right that they gave away, right? The one that
"all hell would have broken loose" if they didn't have it.
I love these wacky mormons!!
>
>
> It has been suggested that the independent nature of the pioneer spirit is
> responsible for the "early" right to vote that western women got, and that
> is quite probably true. However, most of the rest of the western territories
> had to wait until the early nineteen hundreds for their vote; Oregon,
> Alaska, Nevada, Arizona, Montana..none of these states gave women the right
> to vote before 1911. The only western territories and states that had women
> voters were Wyoming, Utah and the Washington Territory.
>
> Now WHAT did these territories and states have in common that most of the
> others didn't?
>
> Oh. yeah. Mormons.
How many mormons were in Washington in time period we are discussing?
>
>
> So, OK, California had a bunch of 'em but we weren't supposed to STAY here!
>
> Now I am not saying that Mormons are the reason Wyoming and the Washington
> territory thought about and accomplished this,
That's exactly what you're saying.
> but it had to help that the
> Mormons in those territories were not only NOT fighting it the way other
> religious leaders of the area were, but were actually promoting it.
Yup, she's drunk. Fighting it and promoting it.
D1
Diana
That's your POV. It's not mine. Nor is it the view of any respectable
historian. Only those who are stuck in their own bigotry have THAT
particular interpretation. Remember, WE call it "Johnson's Army" AT THE
TIME, it was called 'Buchanans' Folly', a VERY obvious 'wag the dog' ploy to
get Buchanan out of political hot water.
Didn't work.
However, it doesn't matter whether your POV is truth, or whether mine is;
the fact is, the Mormons of the time certainly didn't feel that they
deserved an army sent after them. Looking back, is there a military expert
in the world that would have said that the army sent after us could have,
had we resisted the way they were told we would, or the way we could, have
won? Yet they still wanted to become a state in the nation. THAT, my friend,
is patriotism.
> Thus, contrary to your ignorant views expressed above, Utahns did not
"want to
> join the nation even after they sent an army after them"; Utah Territory
was
> ALREADY part of the nation since 1848, nine years before Buchanan sent the
> army.
My apologies, I meant AS A STATE.
Utah tried twice to do this. They gave up more than ANY other state has had
to in order to gain this privilege, and it was considered a privilege even
by those who felt unjustly persecuted by the very nation they wanted to join
AS A STATE...
> In fact, it was Mormon leaders who worked to have Utah made a state for
> decades,
DIDN'T I JUST SAY THAT???? Wasn't that my whole point, that WE wanted in,
in spite of the fact that the US was doing us a great deal of DIRT??
>in the hopes that once they acheived statehood, an all-Mormon state
> legislature could make polygamy legal in the state. But the federal
> government refused to make Utah a state until the Mormons promised to end
> polygamy. Mormon leaders made their first motions towards that end in
1890, and
> Utah was made a state in 1896.
Randy. I know that. I have STATED that. you are writing this as if it were
big news to me, when in fact it supports my point!
ONLY Utah was required to make polygamy unconstitutional as a prerequisite
for becoming a state. ONLY UTAH was required to take the vote away from the
women in order to become a state. ONLY UTAH.
And it takes a very patriotic people to belong to a country that did all
that to them. Which was my point.
Diana
<snip>
> >>
> >> Actually, Don, I don't. I neither believe that Mormons are perfect. Far
> >from
> >> it. However, considering that people like you are so fond of portraying
> >> Mormons as the scum of the earth,
>
>
> >"People like you" is the talk of a bigot.
>
> <chuckle> Especially when "you" is a lifelong Mormon, born and bred in
the
> Salt Lake Valley, a descendant of one of Joseph Smith's "plural wives,"
and a
> former home teaching companion of Wilford Wood.
Is Don currently Mormon, or is he one of those who 'leave the church, but
cannot leave the church alone"??
Diana
> Diana has been pretty wild this time around. She could be one of those
> weepy, clingy drunks that get all sauced up and starts bawling and
pounding
> on the keyboard as big crocodile tears are flowing while she writes about
> the persecution and trials of being a mormon.
>
Please point to ONE thing I have written in this thread that isn't 100%
accurate.
You may not believe any more. That's fine and up to you. But these things
did happen, whether that makes YOU comfortable in your apostasy or not.
€R.L. Measures
<di...@harmonremoveworksthis.com> wrote:
> <snip>
>
>
> > > times.
> >
> > Mormon women did not have the vote a full generation before the rest of the
> > world, Diana. Correcting you on this is not portraying mormons as the scum
> > of the earth. It is simply pointing out that you are wrong about
> something.
> >
> > Get over it.
>
> OK, Mormon women had the vote a full generation before all all the women of
> the world but Scandanavia and New Zealand. Mormon women had the vote only
> thirteen years before New Zealand and Scancanavian women could vote in
> municipal elections (but not national ones..) a few years earlier.
>
> Mormon women had the vote a full generation before all the rest of the women
> of the world.
>
€ It matters not since male and female Mormons pretty much vote the way
they are told by their infallible prophet.
> .........and that, my dear Don, is still pretty remarkable.
>
> And I'm not the bigot. You are......you are the one who isn't willing to
> give Mormons credit for anything at all.
€ the Mormon hierarchy deserves credit for convincing lay Mormons to let
the leaders do their thinking.
--
Rich, AG6K, 805 386 3734, www.vcnet.com/measures
remove ^ from e-mail address
Clovis Lark
Ignorance without documentation...
> Didn't work.
> However, it doesn't matter whether your POV is truth, or whether mine is;
> the fact is, the Mormons of the time certainly didn't feel that they
> deserved an army sent after them. Looking back, is there a military expert
> in the world that would have said that the army sent after us could have,
> had we resisted the way they were told we would, or the way we could, have
> won? Yet they still wanted to become a state in the nation. THAT, my friend,
> is patriotism.
It is no secret that BY's agenda was to create a sovereign kingdom(sic)
with a seaport at San Bernadino. Now why don't you please tell us where
they first expressed a need for statehood?
Clovis Lark
> "TheJordan6" <thejo...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20030622211157...@mb-m14.aol.com...
> <snip>
>> >>
>> >> Actually, Don, I don't. I neither believe that Mormons are perfect. Far
>> >from
>> >> it. However, considering that people like you are so fond of portraying
>> >> Mormons as the scum of the earth,
>>
>>
>> >"People like you" is the talk of a bigot.
>>
>> <chuckle> Especially when "you" is a lifelong Mormon, born and bred in
> the
>> Salt Lake Valley, a descendant of one of Joseph Smith's "plural wives,"
> and a
>> former home teaching companion of Wilford Wood.
> Is Don currently Mormon, or is he one of those who 'leave the church, but
> cannot leave the church alone"??
Are you trying to deflect a point of argument into a personal attack?
Dangerous1
di...@harmonremoveworksthis.com wrote on 6/22/03 7:52 PM:
I thought you said that they were kicked out of the United States?
--
Cheers,
dangerous1
Don Marchant
It is the business of the future to be dangerous....
Alfred North Whitehead
Dangerous1
di...@harmonremoveworksthis.com wrote on 6/22/03 8:53 PM:
>
> "Dangerous1" <dange...@dangerous1.com> wrote in message
> news:BB1BB117.4066%dange...@dangerous1.com...
>> in article 20030622210704...@mb-m14.aol.com, TheJordan6 at
> <snip>
>> Diana has been pretty wild this time around. She could be one of those
>> weepy, clingy drunks that get all sauced up and starts bawling and
> pounding
>> on the keyboard as big crocodile tears are flowing while she writes about
>> the persecution and trials of being a mormon.
>>
>
> Please point to ONE thing I have written in this thread that isn't 100%
> accurate.
1- "Don, you truly are an ass. "
2- "Good for them. Scandinavian women could vote in municipal elections in
1863. Which means absolutely nothing to the point, does it?"
3- "Actually, Don, I don't. I neither believe that Mormons are perfect. Far
from it. However, considering that people like you are so fond of portraying
Mormons as the scum of the earth, a little defense of a pretty good batch of
people isn't out of line."
4-"Nor do I MAKE UP STORIES."
5-" Every word I have written here is not only absolutely true, but I have
backed it up with dates and times."
6- "However, I have finally figured out that my annoyance with your amusment
is simply fueling that amusement, and that your laughter isn't a bona fide
reaction to anything funny, but merely a noise to make when you have nothing
to say....."
7-".........but I am also correct. "
8- "You have amply proven here in this conversation that it doesn't matter
WHAT they do, you will not give Mormons credit for anything."
9- "Whatever it was we have done, your position on it will be that if WE did
it, then it wasn't a good thing, or if you can't say that you will claim
that we did it too little, or too late, or because of pressure from
outside."
10- "OK, Mormon women had the vote a full generation before all all the
women of the world but Scandanavia and New Zealand. "
11- "Mormon women had the vote a full generation before all the rest of the
women of the world."
12-"And I'm not the bigot. You are......you are the one who isn't willing to
give Mormons credit for anything at all."
13- "UTAH was given all sorts of hard times because the government of the
United States looked at things the same way you do; that Utah = Mormonism,
and Mormonism = Utah."
14- "The pioneer society of those states was such that frankly, if the women
were NOT given that right, all hell would have broken loose.......and that
was in large part because of the influence of the Mormons."
15- "The TOTAL NUMBER? You are asking too much."
16- "My point is made and you know it."
17- "Because the LDS Church hasn't done so."
18- "The LDS church went BACK some time later."
19- "yep, that's about right. They swept the whole incident under the rug
and tried VERY hard to forget it. Just like you are trying to do now."
20- "That's your POV. It's not mine. Nor is it the view of any respectable
historian. "
21- " Only those who are stuck in their own bigotry have THAT
particular interpretation."
22- "However, it doesn't matter whether your POV is truth, or whether mine
is; the fact is, the Mormons of the time certainly didn't feel that they
deserved an army sent after them."
23- " Wasn't that my whole point, that WE wanted in,
in spite of the fact that the US was doing us a great deal of DIRT??"
24- " But these things did happen, whether that makes YOU comfortable in
your apostasy or not. "
Dangerous1
cl...@steel.ucs.indiana.edu wrote on 6/22/03 9:08 PM:
> Diana <di...@harmonremoveworksthis.com> wrote:
>
>> "TheJordan6" <thejo...@aol.com> wrote in message
>> news:20030622211157...@mb-m14.aol.com...
>> <snip>
>>>>>
>>>>> Actually, Don, I don't. I neither believe that Mormons are perfect. Far
>>>> from
>>>>> it. However, considering that people like you are so fond of portraying
>>>>> Mormons as the scum of the earth,
>>>
>>>
>>>> "People like you" is the talk of a bigot.
>>>
>>> <chuckle> Especially when "you" is a lifelong Mormon, born and bred in
>> the
>>> Salt Lake Valley, a descendant of one of Joseph Smith's "plural wives,"
>> and a
>>> former home teaching companion of Wilford Wood.
>
>> Is Don currently Mormon, or is he one of those who 'leave the church, but
>> cannot leave the church alone"??
>
>
> Are you trying to deflect a point of argument into a personal attack?
Yes, it is standard operating procedure for mormons since the time of Joseph
Smith Jr. himself.
--
Cheers,
don marchant
dangerous1
"Dangerous1, you have a typical mormon attitude."
--Patrick V.
€R.L. Measures
<gar...@NOSPAMattbi.com> wrote:
> Sounds like a great read for those who enjoyed the Deborah Laake book,
> and are hungry for more sensationalized crap.
** are mormons still pissed that Miss Laake (RIP) compared the Celestial
Kingdom to a boys' tree fort run by someone named God and his little pals
?
Lee Paulson
news:bd5la9$tot$1...@news.chatlink.com...
How many, Diana? What proportion of the women in Wyoming were Mormon,
Diana?
snip
>
> But there were a bunch of Mormon women in both states. If non-Mormon women
> got to vote because the Mormon women in their states got to do so,
> well...that's a very good thing.
>
> ..........and don't you think for one minute that if the Mormon women in
> Utah, Idaho and Wyoming weren't a major part of the economy, society and
the
> voting lives of the communities of all three states, the rest of the women
> would have been able to vote as soon as they did. In Wyoming the campaign
> for women's vote was not led by the LDS, but the women in the fore front
of
> the battle there certainly were supported by the LDS women in their
> communities.
And your evidence for this is?
AND the men. The pioneer society of those states was such that
> frankly, if the women were NOT given that right, all hell would have
broken
> loose.......and that was in large part because of the influence of the
> Mormons.
>
Evidence?
Diana, I suggest you read "Send Us a Lady Physician: Women Doctors in
America 1835-1920."
--
Regards,
Lee, the James, uM, feminist
"It is undesirable to believe a proposition when
there is no ground whatever for supposing it true."
Bertrand Russell, 1928
Lee Paulson
Simply dreadful and harmful to families, I'd think.
Lee Paulson
>
> "TheJordan6" <thejo...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20030622211157...@mb-m14.aol.com...
> <snip>
> > >>
> > >> Actually, Don, I don't. I neither believe that Mormons are perfect.
Far
> > >from
> > >> it. However, considering that people like you are so fond of
portraying
> > >> Mormons as the scum of the earth,
> >
> >
> > >"People like you" is the talk of a bigot.
> >
> > <chuckle> Especially when "you" is a lifelong Mormon, born and bred in
> the
> > Salt Lake Valley, a descendant of one of Joseph Smith's "plural wives,"
> and a
> > former home teaching companion of Wilford Wood.
>
> Is Don currently Mormon, or is he one of those who 'leave the church, but
> cannot leave the church alone"??
Diana, why repeat what someone else says? Why not put your own thought into
the discussion?
Clovis Lark
That's "hisseff", ya ignernt cuss...
Lee Paulson
> > in article bcv7k2$4k6$1...@news.chatlink.com, Diana at
> > di...@harmonremoveworksthis.com wrote on 6/20/03 9:10 AM:
> >
> > <snip>
>
> > > As to
> > > when the Mormon women got the vote.....I've told you this one too, but
> here
>
Diana, read up on world history. And while you're at it, read "Send Us a
Lady Physician: Women Doctors in America 1835-1970."
Diana
<snip>
> 16- "My point is made and you know it."
Ok, so you DON'T know it. OK, you win, I wrote something that isn't 100%
accurate. How was I supposed to know that you are in such complete denial?
Lee Paulson
Diana, what percentage of the women in Wyoming were Mormon when women were
given the vote?
Tom Taylor
<lrpa...@earthlink.net> writes:
>>
>> Unfortunately, I have seen this too. People are people. In truth though, I
>> have seen FAR more shunning from those who leave than from those who are
>> left.
>>
>
>Once again, your opinion.
>
>Diana, I know you are proud to be LDS. I think that's great. I'm glad you
>get satisfaction out of it. But I think you go overboard trying very hard
>to make the LDS out to be some sort of super people who do more better and
>more often than anyone else of any persuasion. I know that could just be
>your opinion. But to state these things as fact is foolishness.
>
>
>
>--
>Regards,
>Lee, the James, uM, feminist
>
I'm still waiting for Diana to provide an example of a poison readily
available to 19th century americans that is so powerful that when
used to poison a water source it not only kills the animal drinking the
water but will also kill a person eating the meat of the dead animal.
I suspect we will both have a long wait for Diana to provide valid
references. She seems to think that if she asserts something
that should be good enough for those of us among the benighted
masses.
Tom
Lee Paulson
news:20030623123840...@mb-m18.aol.com...
> In article <bcss2m$m0ld1$1...@ID-146277.news.dfncis.de>, "Lee Paulson"
> <lrpa...@earthlink.net> writes:
>
> >>
> >> Unfortunately, I have seen this too. People are people. In truth
though, I
> >> have seen FAR more shunning from those who leave than from those who
are
> >> left.
> >>
> >
> >Once again, your opinion.
> >
> >Diana, I know you are proud to be LDS. I think that's great. I'm glad
you
> >get satisfaction out of it. But I think you go overboard trying very
hard
> >to make the LDS out to be some sort of super people who do more better
and
> >more often than anyone else of any persuasion. I know that could just be
> >your opinion. But to state these things as fact is foolishness.
> >
> >
> >
> >--
> >Regards,
> >Lee, the James, uM, feminist
> >
>
> I'm still waiting for Diana to provide an example of a poison readily
> available to 19th century americans that is so powerful that when
> used to poison a water source it not only kills the animal drinking the
> water but will also kill a person eating the meat of the dead animal.
OH HO~ I forgot about that one. She is remarkably persistent in spouting
the party line via folklore.
>
> I suspect we will both have a long wait for Diana to provide valid
> references. She seems to think that if she asserts something
> that should be good enough for those of us among the benighted
> masses.
>
> Tom
I kind of like being among this particular crowd.
--
Regards,
Lee, the James, uM, feminist
"It is undesirable to believe a proposition when
Clovis Lark
> In article <bcss2m$m0ld1$1...@ID-146277.news.dfncis.de>, "Lee Paulson"
> <lrpa...@earthlink.net> writes:
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, I have seen this too. People are people. In truth though, I
>>> have seen FAR more shunning from those who leave than from those who are
>>> left.
>>>
>>
>>Once again, your opinion.
>>
>>Diana, I know you are proud to be LDS. I think that's great. I'm glad you
>>get satisfaction out of it. But I think you go overboard trying very hard
>>to make the LDS out to be some sort of super people who do more better and
>>more often than anyone else of any persuasion. I know that could just be
>>your opinion. But to state these things as fact is foolishness.
>>
>>
>>
>>--
>>Regards,
>>Lee, the James, uM, feminist
>>
> I'm still waiting for Diana to provide an example of a poison readily
> available to 19th century americans that is so powerful that when
> used to poison a water source it not only kills the animal drinking the
> water but will also kill a person eating the meat of the dead animal.
Perhaps there is an aqueous form of the Journal of Discourses?
> I suspect we will both have a long wait for Diana to provide valid
> references. She seems to think that if she asserts something
> that should be good enough for those of us among the benighted
> masses.
The continual revelations of Diana are only occasionally apparent to the
unwashed...
> Tom
dangerous 1
Lee Paulson wrote:
> "Diana" <di...@harmonremoveworksthis.com> wrote in message
> news:bd5qmr$1qj$1...@news.chatlink.com...
> >
> > "Dangerous1" <dange...@dangerous1.com> wrote in message
> > news:BB1BB117.4066%dange...@dangerous1.com...
> > > in article 20030622210704...@mb-m14.aol.com, TheJordan6 at
> > <snip>
> > > Diana has been pretty wild this time around. She could be one of those
> > > weepy, clingy drunks that get all sauced up and starts bawling and
> > pounding
> > > on the keyboard as big crocodile tears are flowing while she writes
> about
> > > the persecution and trials of being a mormon.
> > >
> >
> > Please point to ONE thing I have written in this thread that isn't 100%
> > accurate.
> >
> > You may not believe any more. That's fine and up to you. But these things
> > did happen, whether that makes YOU comfortable in your apostasy or not.
> >
> >
>
> Diana, what percentage of the women in Wyoming were Mormon when women were
> given the vote?
>
> --
> Regards,
> Lee, the James, uM, feminist
She said that she provided all of that, and that 100% of everything she wrote
was accurate. You must have missed it.
Of course, she also said I was an ass, and we know that I am really a
sweetheart of a guy.
D1
Jeff Shirton
> Ok, so you DON'T know it. OK, you win, I wrote something that isn't 100%
> accurate. How was I supposed to know that you are in such complete denial?
In ten years, you haven't changed a bit, Diana.
<sigh>
--
Jeff Shirton jshirton at cogeco dot
ca
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
"[T]he gospel is not that man can become God,
but that God became a man." -- James White
TheJordan6
>Date: 6/22/2003 9:49 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: <bd5qee$1l5$1...@news.chatlink.com>
<guffaw> Diana, below are some quotes from various historians who have written
about the reasons that Buchanan sent troops to Utah in 1857 to depose Brigham
Young. Please inform us as to which of these authors you consider to be
"bigots" or are not "respectable historians":
"President B. Young in his sermon declared that the thread was cut between us
and the U. S. and that the Almighty recognized us as a free and independent
people and that no officer appointed by the government should come and rule
over us from this time forth." (Diary of Hosea Stout, September 6, 1857.)
"It was now established, on sufficient evidence, that the Mormons refused
obedience to gentile law, that federal officials had been virtually driven from
Utah, that one, at least, of the federal judges had been threatened with
violence while his court was in session, and that the records of the court had
been destroyed or concealed. With the advice of his cabinet, therefore, and
yielding perhaps not unwillingly to the outcry of the republican party,
President Buchanan determined that Brigham should be superseded as governor,
and that a force should be sent to the territory, ostensibly as a posse
comitatus, to sustain the authority of his successor." (History of Utah,
Hubert Bancroft, p. 495.)
"Difficulties arose when the first appointments were made by President Fillmore
to federal offices in the territory. Scarcely had these appointees taken their
oath of office when three of them: Chief Justice Brandenberry, Associate
Justice Brocchus and the Territorial Secretary, Broughton D. Harris, refused to
stay longer in the Territory and returned to the Eastern States. There they
spread the report that first, they had been compelled to leave Utah because of
the lawless and seditious acts of Governor Young; second, that Governor Young
was wasting federal funds allotted to the Territory; third, that the Saints
were immoral, and were practicing polygamy." ("The Restored Church," Deseret
Book, 1974, William
R. Berrett, p. 321.)
"Judge Stiles forwarded an affidavit affirming much of Drummond's charges.
These charges were further substantiated by a letter to President Buchanan,
written by Mr. W. F. Magraw.....'In relation to the present social and
political condition of the territory of Utah.....There is no disguising the
fact that there is no vestige of law and order, no protection for life or
property; the civil laws of the territory are overshadowed and neutralized by a
so-styled ecclesiastical organization [the "Council of Fifty"], as despotic,
dangerous, and damnable, as
has ever been known to exist in any country, and which is ruining, not only
those who do not subscribe to their religious code, but is driving the Mormon
community to desperation." (Berrett, p. 322-23.)
As Berrett alluded to, in 1851, Utah Supreme Court Justice Broughton D. Harris
fled Utah Territory because of the unlawful and dangerous activities the
Mormons were engaging in: "Joining him in flight were Chief Justice
Brandebury, Associate Justice Brocchus, and U. S. Indian Agent Henry Day. They
were the first of at least sixteen federal officers who would abandon their
posts in Utah out of fright, frustration, or both, over the next dozen years.
In addition to Harris, Brandebury, Broccus, and Day in 1851, they included
Indian Agent Stephen B. Rose, also 1851; Secretary Benjamin G. Ferris and
Indian Agent Jacob Holeman, 1853; Surveyor General David H. Burr, Indian Agent
Garland Hurt, and Associate Justices George P. Stiles and W. W. Drummond, 1857;
Chief Justice Delano R. Eckles, 1858; Governor John W. Dawson, 1861; associate
justices H. R. Crosby and R. P. Flenniken and Indian Agent Henry Martin, 1862.
Three others, Chief Justice Lazarus Reid, Associate Justice Lenodias Shaver,
and Indian Agent Edward A. Bedell, died in office during this period......
"They said they found Mormon leaders to be disloyal to the national government
and in complete control of the 'opinions, the actions, the property, and even
the lives' of the people.
'Their conduct shows that they either disregard, or cannot appreciate, the
blessings of the present form of government established for them by the United
States,' they told President Fillmore.' "
("Forgotten Kingdom," David A. Bigler, pp. 59-60.)
"Justice Stiles reported that he was intimidated in his own court, and his
official records were stolen and burned. Justice Drummond also returned to
Washington, D. C., and in a long letter accompanying his grievances, among them
the charge that the court records had been destroyed with the knowledge and
approval of Brigham Young, and that the officers of the government were
constantly insulted and harassed. He insisted that affairs in Utah were in a
treasonable and disgraceful state. Mormon protestations that affairs had been
misrepresented had been ignored; proof that the records were safe did not
change the fact that they had been taken without sanction from the office of
the judge." (Juanita Brooks, "Mountain Meadows Massacre," p. 13.)
"A purposeful mob on December 29 [1856] broke into the law offices of
Associate Supreme Court Justice George P. Stiles and looted the federal
appointee's papers and library. The raiders pretended to dump his books and
court records into a nearby privy and set them on fire. An outspoken defender
of the primacy of the district courts, Stiles was so upset by the apparent
burning of government property and so fearful for his own safety that he soon
after fled the territory." (Bigler, p. 130.)
Diana, in a previous post, you quoted from Bigler's "Forgotten Kingdom," which
indicates that you apparently view him as a respected, credible historian
(which is ironic in light of the fact that your fellow Mobot, Red Davis, called
Bigler an "anti-Mormon with an axe to grind" about a month ago.)
But seeing as how Bigler, in addition to other historians I quoted above,
published details of the reason why Buchanan sent the Army which I summarized
above, will you now claim that Bigler is not a "respectable historian", or is a
"bigot"?
As far as crimes against citizens which Mormons were committing which I
mentioned above, Bigler had this to say about the MMM:
"[Jacob] Hamblin and some twelve Indian chiefs on September first met with
Brigham
Young and his most trusted interpreter, 49-year-old Dimick Huntington, at Great
Salt Lake. Taking part in this pow-wow were Kanosh, the Mormon chief of the
Pahvants; Ammon, half-brother of Walker; Tutsegabit, head chief of the Piedes;
Youngwuds, another Piede chieftain, and other leaders of desert bands along the
Santa Clara and Virgin Rivers.
"Little was known of what they talked about until recently when it came to
light that Huntington (apparently speaking for Young) told the chiefs that he
'gave them all the cattle that had gone to Cal[ifornia by] the south rout[e].'
The gift 'made them open their eyes,' he said. But 'you have told us not to
steal,' the Indians replied. 'So I have,' Huntington said, 'but now they have
come to fight us & you for when they kill us they will kill you.' The chiefs
knew what cattle he was giving them. They belonged to the Baker-Fancher
train." ("Forgotten Kingdom: The Mormon Theocracy in the American West," David
Bigler, pp. 167-168.)
Now, Diana, in case you didn't comprehend that, Bigler related that Brigham
Young bestowed the cattle which belonged to the Baker-Fancher emigrant train to
12 southern Indian chiefs who met with Young in SLC on September 1, 1857---six
days before those same Indian chiefs were leading their tribes in attacking the
Baker-Fancher train at Mountain Meadows on September 7.
Diana, do you now believe Bigler to be "not a respectable historian" or a
"bigot" for relating this information?
>Remember, WE call it "Johnson's Army" AT THE
>TIME, it was called 'Buchanans' Folly', a VERY obvious 'wag the dog' ploy to
>get Buchanan out of political hot water. Didn't work.
Diana, the only reason it was called "Buchanan's Folly" is because it took
money and troops away from the impending American civil war.
However, the historical record clearly shows that the Mormons were in defiance
of the government, that they harassed and threatened numerous federal
officials, that they carried out an institutional policy of robbing and killing
passing emigrants, and that Buchanan was perfectly justified in sending the
army to depose Young and end the Mormons' crime spree.
"To justify his decision to send an American army to Utah, President james
Buchanan later submitted to Congress nearly five dozen letters and reports
written over a six-year period, alleging treason, disloyalty, or other serious
offenses. Pointing up the importance of Indian relations in Utah's early
years, forty-six of the number came from the Office of Indian Affairs, six
written by Garland Hurt.
"Especially inflammatory was the list of charges leveled in the fiery
resignation on March 30, 1857, of Associate Justice William Drummond. Among
other things, Drumond said there were men 'set apart' by the Mormon church [the
"Danites"] to 'take both the lives and property' of dissenters, that American
citizens were illegally imprisoned, and that Brigham Young told grand juries
'whom to indict and whom not.' " (Bigler, p. 143.)
(Incidentally, Garland Hurt himself escaped murder by Young's "Danites" with
the aid of friendly Indians.)
>However, it doesn't matter whether your POV is truth, or whether mine is;
Diana, I'm not expressing my "POV"; I'm relating the actual history of the
events.
>the fact is, the Mormons of the time certainly didn't feel that they
>deserved an army sent after them.
The reason most rank-and-file Mormons believed that is because Brigham Young
and his cronies kept their illegal, insurrectionist activies from their
knowledge. Young caused his people to believe that the army was coming to
"annihilate" them, when in fact, the army's only mission was to unseat Young,
escort the new governor, and put down the Mormons' insurrection.
The very fact that when the army and new officials finally arrived in SLC in
the spring of 1858, they mercifully spared Young and his fellow traitors from a
firing squad, shows that they had no intention of "annihilating" the Mormons.
Young merely planted that lie into his minions' minds as an attempt to prevent
his being deposed from office, and to prevent investigations into the Mormons'
secret criminal culture.
>Looking back, is there a military expert
>in the world that would have said that the army sent after us could have,
>had we resisted the way they were told we would, or the way we could, have
>won?
Captain Stewart van Vliet informed Young that even though the Mormons succeeded
in preventing the army from entering the valley that fall, they would most
assuredly arrive in force the next spring, which they did.
>Yet they still wanted to become a state in the nation. THAT, my friend,
>is patriotism.
<Groan> Diana, the record shows that Young and the Mormons were far from
"patriotic"; in fact, as I've cited above, Young "seceded" from the Union on
September 6, 1857, which is the most unpatriotic act by a territorial governor
in the entire history of the U. S.
The only reason the Mormons made efforts to become a state *later* was to try
to make polygamy legal. Aside from that, Mormon leaders maintained an attitude
of defiance, disloyalty, and insurrection against the government until the
early 1900's.
>> Thus, contrary to your ignorant views expressed above, Utahns did not
>"want to
>> join the nation even after they sent an army after them"; Utah Territory
>was
>> ALREADY part of the nation since 1848, nine years before Buchanan sent the
>> army.
>My apologies, I meant AS A STATE.
But that still doesn't negate the Mormons' long record of defiance, disloyalty,
and Young's "declaration of independence" from the Union in 1857. Utah was
only allowed to become a state in 1896 AFTER Mormon leaders made promises to
dismantle their theocratic dictatorship and submit themselves to the same laws
all other states operated under.
>Utah tried twice to do this. They gave up more than ANY other state has had
>to in order to gain this privilege, and it was considered a privilege even
>by those who felt unjustly persecuted by the very nation they wanted to join
>AS A STATE...
The problem with your comment is that the Mormons were not "unjustly
persecuted." They deserved all the governments' actions against them, as I've
documented above.
>> In fact, it was Mormon leaders who worked to have Utah made a state for
>> decades,
>DIDN'T I JUST SAY THAT????
>Wasn't that my whole point, that WE wanted in,
>in spite of the fact that the US was doing us a great deal of DIRT??
<groan> To repeat: The Mormons only tried to become a state so their leaders
could legislate polygamy. IOW, their efforts were underhanded and not in good
faith. The fed only granted statehood after church leaders made public
statements disavowing the practice of polygamy.
The federal government was not "doing the Mormons a great deal of dirt." The
Mormons deserved all the punishment and sanctions leveled against them.
>>in the hopes that once they acheived statehood, an all-Mormon state
>> legislature could make polygamy legal in the state. But the federal
>> government refused to make Utah a state until the Mormons promised to end
>> polygamy. Mormon leaders made their first motions towards that end in
>1890, and
>> Utah was made a state in 1896.
>Randy. I know that. I have STATED that. you are writing this as if it were
>big news to me, when in fact it supports my point!
If you believe that, then you obviously aren't understanding what I'm writing.
>ONLY Utah was required to make polygamy unconstitutional as a prerequisite
>for becoming a state.
Du-uh, what other territories beside Utah were headed by theocrats who believed
that practicing polygamy was a legal right?
>ONLY UTAH was required to take the vote away from the
>women in order to become a state. ONLY UTAH.
Du-uh, Utah only gave their women the vote in order to guarantee that
Mormon-picked candidates would be elected, particularly ones who were
pro-polygamy.
The 1887 Edmunds-Tucker Act temporarily banned Utah women from voting as part
of the government's dismantling of the Mormon theocratic dictatorship.
The vote was returned to Utah women in the fist state constitution enacted on
May 6, 1895.
Thus, Utah women were only banned from voting for eight years, and for a
specific temporary purpose.
>And it takes a very patriotic people to belong to a country that did all
>that to them. Which was my point.
One more time: The historical record clearly shows that the Mormons were
unpatriotic and disloyal from 1830 to the 1890s.
They only became "patriotic" when church leaders realized that their hopes of
maintaining an independent "kingdom," not subject to federal laws, were being
dashed
by the fact that the nation had created states from coast to coast; the
Mormons' decision to turn "patriotic" was a concession to reality.
Randy J.
TheJordan6
>Date: 6/22/2003 8:16 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: <BB1BB117.4066%dange...@dangerous1.com>>thejo...@aol.com wrote on 6/22/03 7:07 PM:
>
>> Don Marchant wrote:
>>
>>>> A governor of a state can kick a group of people out of the U.S.?
>>>>
>>>> LOL
>>
>> Diana Newman wrote:
>>
>>> In actuality, he shouldn't be able to, but he did. Remember that the
>>> Extermination Order, which was not rescinded until 1976, stated that it
>was
>>> legal to kill on sight any Mormon in the state after a certain date. There
>>> was no mention of waiting to see if the Mormon was armed, or adult....if
>it
>>> was a Mormon, you could kill it.
>>>
>>> "The Mormons must be treated as enemies, and must be exterminated or
>driven
>>> from the State if necessary"
>>
>> Diana, please provide the total number of Mormons, and their names, who
>were
>> "killed on sight" in the state of Missouri because of Boggs' order.
>>
>people
>>> out", especially since at the time, the United States pretty much ended at
>>> the Missourri state border.
>>
>> No, the militia escorted the Mormons out of the state peacefully, ensuring
>> that
>> caches of corn were provided for them to the Illinois border.
>>
>mother
>> and four children, were able to tour the Independence and Liberty Jail
>> visitors' centers in 1967, when I was 12 years old, without being shot to
>> death
>> "lawfully" by Missourians?
>>
>> Mormons
>> who have maintained churches and members in the Independence area since the
>> 1830s, with no harm whatsoever coming to them?
>>
>all
>> those years?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>Diana has been pretty wild this time around. She could be one of those
>weepy, clingy drunks that get all sauced up and starts bawling and pounding
>on the keyboard as big crocodile tears are flowing while she writes about
>the persecution and trials of being a mormon.
>
>
>
>--
>Cheers,
>Don Marchant
>dangerous 1
Naw, I don't think Diana's like that.
I just think she's naive anough to believe that what she learned in seminary
and Sunday School about Mormon history is the truth.
Randy J.
Dangerous1
thejo...@aol.com wrote on 6/23/03 8:11 PM:
It was not for show that JS Jr. made himself (by "revelation") Secretary Of
War over the "church's" War Department and that foreign ambassadors were
sent out looking for support.
Very patriotic people my ass. Diana can quote me on that.
--
Cheers,
Don M
Dangerous1
"That which edifies is of God and that which does
not is not. Rock and Roll edifies, saith the Lord."
Art Bulla
TheJordan6
>Date: 6/22/2003 8:52 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: <bd5n4u$v1l$1...@news.chatlink.com>>news:20030622210704...@mb-m14.aol.com...
>> Don Marchant wrote:
>>
>> >> A governor of a state can kick a group of people out of the U.S.?
>> >>
>> >> LOL
>>
>> Diana Newman wrote:
>>
>> >In actuality, he shouldn't be able to, but he did. Remember that the
>> >Extermination Order, which was not rescinded until 1976, stated that it
>was
>> >legal to kill on sight any Mormon in the state after a certain date.
>There
>> >was no mention of waiting to see if the Mormon was armed, or adult....if
>it
>> >was a Mormon, you could kill it.
>> >
>> >"The Mormons must be treated as enemies, and must be exterminated or
>driven
>> >from the State if necessary"
>>
>> Diana, please provide the total number of Mormons, and their names, who
>were
>> "killed on sight" in the state of Missouri because of Boggs' order.
>The TOTAL NUMBER? You are asking too much. Even one is too many.
Okay, then provide just one.
>However,
>'Hauns Mill" comes immediately to mind...
I'm sorry, Diana, but no one at Haun's Mill was killed because of Boggs' order.
Militia officers in the field didn't even receive Boggs' order until after the
Haun's Mill tragedy occurred.
The Haun's Mill massacre was committed on October 30 by an unauthorized militia
band who acted in retaliation for the Mormon Danite raids on their towns of
Millport, Gallatin, and Grinder's Fork (which had been ordered directly by
Joseph Smith, Jr.,) and the Danites' attack on other state militia troops at
Crooked River on October 25.
"No one knows who ordered the attack on Haun's Mill. The militia companies
that participated in the assault belonged to General Parks' brigade, but he did
not issue the order. The troops were organized under the command of Col.
Thomas Jennings, who apparently acted on his own initiative in leading the
attack. It is possible that the Missourians received word of Governor Boggs'
extermination order and took it upon themselves to carry out the decree, but
they never offered this as a reason for the raid.
(One problem with this theory is that there is no evidence indicating when
Governor Boggs' order became known to the Missourians. Generals Jackson,
Doniphan, and Lucas did not receive their orders from the governor until the
afternoon of 30 October, and they did not receive an official copy of the
extermination order until 31 October.)
"One of the attackers, Charles Ashby, a state legislator from Livingston, said
the Missourians attacked because Mormon dissenters fleeing into Livingston
warned them that the Saints at Haun's Mill were planning an invasion of their
county. Local citizens decided they must act to prevent Mormon soldiers from
overruning Livingston County as they had done Daviess. 'We thought it best to
attack them first,' Ashby told fellow legislators. 'What we did was in our own
defence, and we had the right to do so.'
"The Livingston troops were joined by companies from Daviess and Carroll
counties, Many of the Daviess men wanted to even the score for Mormon
depradations in their county. Capts. Nehemiah Comstock and William Mann, whose
troops had been harassing Mormon emigrants and settlers, also brought their
troops into the field."
("The 1838 Mormon War in Missouri," Stephen LeSeuer, U. of Missouri Press, pp.
163-164.)
Diana, this makes the number of Mormons who were killed as a result of Boggs'
order "zero."
Care to try again?
>Do you deny that the order was written?
No, Diana. I have written numerous posts to you concerning Boggs' order, and
it is painfully obvious that I am ten times more educated on the issue than you
are.
>Do you deny that the militia was
>sent, first to PREVENT their leaving, and then to make certain that they
>did?
The only people the militia were instructed to prevent from leaving the state
were Danite leaders who had ordered depradations against non-Mormons.
>The point is, the order said "eliminated or driven from the state'.
No, it said "exterminated or driven from the state," just to correct your
ignorance.
Boggs issued his order after receiving reports of Mormon depradations, which
"places the Mormons in the attitude of an open and avowed defiance of the laws,
and of having made war upon the people of this state.....The Mormons must be
treated as enemies, and must be exterminated or driven from the state if
necessary for the public peace---their outrages are beyond all description."
"Twenty-four hours after the Crooked River fight, Boggs, armed with the
affidavits of [Thomas] Marsh and [Orson] Hyde plus complaints from frightened
settlers
describing a wholesale Mormon rebellion, ordered two thousand militiamen from
five divisions into the field...Then Boggs received a message confirming an
earlier report of Bogart's defeat but compounding the rumors of a
massacre...this report prompted Boggs to issue his infamous 'Extermination
Order' of October 27 to General John B. Clark. In effect, the order challenged
Sidney Rigdon's Fourth of July address in which he defied the Gentiles and
threatened a 'war of extermination.' It was more than coincidence that Boggs
chose that particular word in his instruction to General Clark."
("Orrin Porter Rockwell: Man of God, Son of Thunder," Harold Schindler, pp.
56-58.)
>Since
>they LEFT, I would call that being driven.
Boggs was forced to evict the entire body of Mormons, because many of them had
sworn secret oaths to obey the orders of church leaders above those, or
contrary to, the laws of the state.
Boggs realized that attempting to identify and arrest only the Mormons who were
giving the orders was impossible, and could possibly lead to all-out civil war,
with hundreds of deaths on both sides.
Since Joseph Smith had vowed to "wage a war of blood and gore from the Rocky
Mountains to the Atlantic," and had expressed his intention to "take this
state, then the United States, then the whole world" as his empire, Boggs had
no choice but to evict the entire fanatical cult from his jurisdiction.
>Certainly in today's courts,
>being told to leave a place at gunpoint, with a written statement saying
>that there would be an open season on anybody who didn't leave would be
>considered coercion...and being forced out, even if nobody actually got
>shot.
You are apparently ignorant of the Baghwan Rajneesh cult, which was evicted en
masse from Oregon a few years ago because they tried to dominate the region
just as Joseph Smith did in Missouri in 1838.
And nobody declared an "open season" on Mormons in Missouri. That is why I
asked you to tell us how many Mormons were killed as a result of Boggs'
order---there weren't any, and never have been.
>My point is made and you know it.
The only point you are making on ARM is that you are an utterly ignorant
religious fanatic, for whom facts and logic mean absolutely nothing.
>> >......and then he sent the state militia. I would call that 'kicking
>people
>> >out", especially since at the time, the United States pretty much ended
>at
>> >the Missourri state border.
>> No, the militia escorted the Mormons out of the state peacefully, ensuring
>that
>> caches of corn were provided for them to the Illinois border.
>Oh, they PEACEFULLY held guns on them, took their property with little or no
>compensation........
No one "held guns on them" as they left the state. Unfortunately, thousands of
rank-and-file Mormons bore the suffering of Joseph Smith's unwise, arrogant,
and illegal policies. Mormons lost their property in Missouri because of
Smith's orders and policies.
>and left 'caches of corn'? GUESS WHOSE CORN IT WAS!!!
It wasn't the Mormons' corn, because the route to Illinois headed away from
Mormon-settled country in far western MIssouri. My point is that the Mormons
were not "driven at the point of a gun", as you are ignorantly trying to
portray the situation.
General Lucas' order called for the Mormons to "give up their leaders to be
tried and punished" and "that the balance should leave the state, and be
protected out by the militia, but to be permitted to remain under protection
until further orders were received from the commander-in-chief."
"The non-Mormons were appealed to for aid and many came forward generously.
Agents were sent down the Missouri River to make caches of corn for the use of
the Saints while making their way out of the state. The agents were to arrange
for ferries and other necessary things."
("The Restored Church," Berrett, p. 144.)
>Because the LDS Church hasn't done so.
Yes they have, Diana. SLC Mormons have lived in Missouri for decades before
1976, and the SLC church built chapels and visitors' centers there long before
1976, with no "persecution" from non-Mormons there.
>The RLDS church did. The LDS church
>went BACK some time later.
But long before 1976, Diana.
>The order was not enforced after the first time.
>It was certainly enforced at the time it was written; the Saints were thrown
>out.
That's because Boggs' Extermination Order only applied for that specific time
and purpose.
Your belief that it was still legal to "shoot on sight" Mormons between 1838
and 1976, but simply wasn't "enforced," only continues to paint you as an
ignorant, blithering fanatic.
Boggs' order didn't even call for Mormons to be "shot on sight" in 1838. If it
had, then Missouri militiamen missed their chance to legally kill thousands of
Mormons while they were escorting them out of the state.
>> Can you offer any explanation as to why my Mormon family, including my
>mother
>> and four children, were able to tour the Independence and Liberty Jail
>> visitors' centers in 1967, when I was 12 years old, without being shot to
>death
>> "lawfully" by Missourians?
>Because Missouri was ashamed of itself? Because they chose to forget that
>nasty little bit of history and thought it would simply go away?
No, Diana. It's because it has never been legal to "shoot on sight" Mormons in
the state of Missouri, in 1838, in 1967, or any other time. That is not what
Boggs' order called for, nor did any Missouri militia officials do such a
thing. The idea is all purely in your diseased mind.
>> And how about those thousands of Whitmerite, Hedrickite, and Reorganite
>Mormons
>> who have maintained churches and members in the Independence area since
>the
>> 1830s, with no harm whatsoever coming to them?
>
>See above.
They were Mormons too, Diana. Why didn't Missourians shoot them on sight for
all those years?
>> Did the eeee-villll Missourians somehow forget to "shoot them on sight"
>all
>> those years?
>yep, that's about right. They swept the whole incident under the rug and
>tried VERY hard to forget it.
Really? Is that why Governor Boggs sent President van Buren an official report
of the Missouri War, now entitled "Senate Document 189," so that van Buren
could learn exactly what the Mormons did to get them booted from the
state---which is why van Buren refused to give the Mormons reparations for a
war they themselves started?
Is that what you call "sweeping it under the rug?"
>Just like you are trying to do now. "Gee,
>Diana, After Boggs moved all those people out of the state, they haven't
>done anything SINCE, right? Doesn't that mean that the original offence
>wasn't done either? "
Boggs' order wasn't an "offense," Diana. it was what the Mormons forced him to
do by their own illegal and anti-social actions.
>WHAT are you trying to pull?
I'm trying to pull some brain cells out of your ass and see if they will work
their way up to your head.
Randy J.
Lee Paulson
news:3EF741AF...@dangerous1.com...
Oh, I know that.
--
Regards,
Lee, the James, uM, feminist
"It is undesirable to believe a proposition when
Diana
"Jeff Shirton" <burli...@ontario.ca> wrote in message
news:D0IJa.36277$b67.4...@read2.cgocable.net...
> "Diana" <di...@harmonremoveworksthis.com> wrote in message
> news:bd76i9$d60$1...@news.chatlink.com...
>
> > Ok, so you DON'T know it. OK, you win, I wrote something that isn't 100%
> > accurate. How was I supposed to know that you are in such complete
denial?
>
> In ten years, you haven't changed a bit, Diana.
> <sigh>
I'm consistent.
YOU, my dear Jeff, are mulish and completely blind to the possibility that
you could be wrong.
So...I'll take that as a compliment. (grin)
Jeff Shirton
> YOU, my dear Jeff, are mulish
I'm "mulish", but you're "consistent".
We're both "stubborn", but you wish to self-servingly describe
me in a derogatory way, and yourself in a positive way.
I wouldn't call myself "mulish", but rather *steadfast*,
which as I hope you know, is a positive trait from the Bible.
It's actually quite a *good* thing to be (in your words), "mulish".
Indeed, the vast majority of LDS here are just as "mulish" in
their belief in the LDS church, but I never see you criticize
them for that. You seem to selectively and self-servingly only
criticize non-LDS.
> and completely blind to the possibility that you could be wrong.
That's simply not true, Diana (hardly a surprise) and as usual,
you refuse to allow me to speak for myself, and instead presume
to speak (derogatarily) for me.
I am just as much open to "the possibility that [I] could be wrong"
as LDS are to the possibility that *they* could be wrong.
What you mistake for close-mindedness is simply a lack of
evidence to any errors in my belief. Indeed, *YOU* seem
blind to the possibility that I could be right.
Indeed, I have gone through the school of hard knocks, and
have never been unwilling to admit when I was wrong. I
was wrong when I was an agnostic, and didn't believe in God.
I was wrong when I believed in "free will", and denied God's
sovereign election.
If and when you can show me some valid evidence (rather
than hypercalvinistic straw-men) which indicates that my
beliefs are in any way wrong, I will be more than willing,
even happy, to change my beliefs. After all, all I want is
to believe the truth. And anti-Calvinists such as yourself
bring up a very intesting point, albeit indirectly, in that
you criticize Calvinism for aspects of the belief that you
don't care for. That simply emphasizes the fact that I
hold my beliefs because I believe they're *true*, not because
I "want" to believe them. This can be contrasted with
Mormonism quite easily in that Mormonism is presented
as a belief people would "like", or "want" to hold.
Diana
> "Diana" <di...@harmonremoveworksthis.com> wrote in message
> news:bdcknl$7sm$1...@news.chatlink.com...
>
> > YOU, my dear Jeff, are mulish
>
> I'm "mulish", but you're "consistent".
> We're both "stubborn", but you wish to self-servingly describe
> me in a derogatory way, and yourself in a positive way.
It was a JOKE, Jeff. Irony.
Sheesh.......I hate having to explain punchlines.
> I wouldn't call myself "mulish", but rather *steadfast*,
> which as I hope you know, is a positive trait from the Bible.
OK, you are steadfast and I'm stubborn. Same idea.
> It's actually quite a *good* thing to be (in your words), "mulish".
> Indeed, the vast majority of LDS here are just as "mulish" in
> their belief in the LDS church, but I never see you criticize
> them for that. You seem to selectively and self-servingly only
> criticize non-LDS.
>
> > and completely blind to the possibility that you could be wrong.
>
> That's simply not true, Diana (hardly a surprise) and as usual,
> you refuse to allow me to speak for myself, and instead presume
> to speak (derogatarily) for me.
>
> I am just as much open to "the possibility that [I] could be wrong"
> as LDS are to the possibility that *they* could be wrong.
(snort)
Jeff Shirton
> > > YOU, my dear Jeff, are mulish
> >
> > I'm "mulish", but you're "consistent".
> > We're both "stubborn", but you wish to self-servingly describe
> > me in a derogatory way, and yourself in a positive way.
>
> It was a JOKE, Jeff. Irony.
>
> Sheesh.......I hate having to explain punchlines.
Yeah, right.
No smiley, no "<g>", you put me down (as usual), but
you expect me to interpret it as a "joke"?
Perhaps if you didn't take the opportunity to put me
down every chance you get (or was calling my beliefs
"Satanic" supposed to be a joke as well?), we might
actually be able to get along to the point where we
*could* have lighthearted posts to each other.