Joseph Smith's Mosiah 14 copied from KJV Isaiah 53 in fabrication of Book of Mormon
dfo...@gl.umbc.edu
Isaiah 53 in the King James Version of the Bible, and
Chapter 14 of the Book of Mormon's Book of Mosiah.
Comparison of the two items reveals extremely close similarity.
Joseph Smith alleged he translated the Book of Mormon from golden
tablets, when in actuality he fabricated it. In the case of the Book
of Mosiah, Chapter 14, Smith basically copied Isaiah 53 in the King
James Version of the Bible.
Isaiah 53 (King James Version)
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=isaiah%2053;&version=9;
1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD
revealed?
2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root
out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall
see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and
acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he
was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we
did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our
iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his
stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his
own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his
mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before
her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare
his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for
the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his
death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his
mouth.
10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief:
when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his
seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall
prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied:
by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall
bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall
divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul
unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare
the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
Book of Mormon's Book of Mosiah, Chapter 14
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/mosiah/14
1 Yea, even doth not Isaiah say: Who hath believed our report, and
to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?
2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root
out of dry ground; he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall
see him there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and
acquainted with grief; and we hid as it were our faces from him; he
was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he has borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows; yet we
did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our
iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his
stripes we are healed.
6 All we, like sheep, have gone astray; we have turned every one to
his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquities of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his
mouth; he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before
her shearers is dumb so he opened not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment; and who shall declare
his generation? For he was cut off out of the land of the living; for
the transgressions of my people was he stricken.
9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his
death; because he had done no evil, neither was any deceit in his
mouth.
10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief;
when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin he shall see his
seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall
prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied; by
his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall
bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he
shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his
soul unto death; and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he
bore the sins of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
hilton hotel pen
> Below appears
> Isaiah 53 in the King James Version of the Bible, and
> Chapter 14 of the Book of Mormon's Book of Mosiah.
> Comparison of the two items reveals extremely close similarity.
>
> Joseph Smith alleged he translated the Book of Mormon from golden
> tablets, when in actuality he fabricated it. In the case of the Book
> of Mosiah, Chapter 14, Smith basically copied Isaiah 53 in the King
> James Version of the Bible.
>
Wow. Mosiah there says it is from isa, and lo and behold, it looks
just like isa from the king james.
'hey oliver they are quoting isa here, can you grab that bible
in the other room, and bring it here ...'
Chief...@hotmail.com
> Below appears
> Isaiah 53 in the King James Version of the Bible, and
> Chapter 14 of the Book of Mormon's Book of Mosiah.
> Comparison of the two items reveals extremely close similarity.
>
> Joseph Smith alleged he translated the Book of Mormon from golden
> tablets, when in actuality he fabricated it. In the case of the Book
> of Mosiah, Chapter 14, Smith basically copied Isaiah 53 in the King
> James Version of the Bible.
>
I am NOT a Mormon apologist. But Mosiah 14 is quoting Isaiah 53
purposefully, and giving reference to it.
He is using Isaiah 53 as a lesson, as he opens with the question, the
equivalent of : "Doesn't Isaiah say:.." and then
goes on to quote Isaiah 53.
Etchelle
Is there a point here Chief, or is this just another loose arrow going
off into the wild blue yonder.
dfo...@gl.umbc.edu
Saints, Section 130
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/130
21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is
by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.
22 The Father has a body of flesh and bones as
tangible as man's; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost
has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a
personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost
could not dwell in us.
Compare with verse 24 below:
John 4 (New International Version)
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=4&version=31
21 Jesus declared, "Believe me, woman, a time is
coming when you will worship the Father neither on
this mountain nor in Jerusalem.
22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know;
we worship what we do know, for salvation is from
the Jews.
23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when
the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit
and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the
Father seeks.
24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in
spirit and in truth."
I AM
> The Doctrine and Covenants of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day
> 21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is
> by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.
> 22 The Father has a body of flesh and bones as
> tangible as man's; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost
> has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a
> personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost
> could not dwell in us.
>
> Compare with verse 24 below:
>
> 21 Jesus declared, "Believe me, woman, a time is
> coming when you will worship the Father neither on
> this mountain nor in Jerusalem.
> 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know;
> we worship what we do know, for salvation is from
> the Jews.
> 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when
> the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit
> and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the
> Father seeks.
> 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in
> spirit and in truth."
God is spirit, and we must worship him in spirit?
I guess we have to die to worship him "in
spirit" ...
dfo...@gl.umbc.edu
Do you think Huckabee:
belongs to [Joseph Smith]"the church of the devil"?
belongs to an [Smith]"abominable church"?
The First Book of Nephi
His Reign and Ministry
Chapter 14
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/1_ne/14
8 And it came to pass that when the angel had
spoken these words, he said unto me:
Rememberest thou the covenants of the Father
unto the house of Israel? I said unto him, Yea.
9 And it came to pass that he said unto me: Look,
and behold that great and abominable church,
which is the mother of abominations, whose founder
is the devil.
10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two
churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of
God, and the other is the church of the devil;
wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the
Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which
is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore
of all the earth.
11 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the
whore of all the earth, and she sat upon many
waters; and she had dominion over all the earth,
among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people.
12 And it came to pass that I beheld the church of
the Lamb of God, and its numbers were few,
because of the wickedness and abominations of the
whore who sat upon many waters; nevertheless, I
beheld that the church of the Lamb, who were the
saints of God, were also upon all the face of the
earth; and their dominions upon the face of the
earth were small, because of the wickedness of the
great whore whom I saw.
13 ....
14 ....
15 ....
16 And as there began to be wars and rumors of
wars among all the nations which belonged to the
mother of abominations, the angel spake unto me,
saying: Behold, the wrath of God is upon the mother
of harlots; and behold, thou seest all these things--
17 And when the day cometh that the wrath of God
is poured out upon the mother of harlots, which is
the great and abominable church of all the earth,
whose founder is the devil, then, at that day, the
work of the Father shall commence, in preparing the
way for the fulfilling of his covenants, which he hath
made to his people who are of the house of Israel.
dfo...@gl.umbc.edu
afterlife?
According to official LDS texts, will people be getting married in the
afterlife?
Do you disagree with anything below?:
The Doctrine and Covenants of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day
Saints
Section 132
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/132
61 And again, as pertaining to the law of the
priesthood-- if any man espouse a virgin, and desire
to espouse another, and the first give her consent,
and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins,
and have vowed to no other man, then is he
justified; he cannot commit adultery for they are
given unto him; for he cannot commit adultery with
that that belongeth unto him and to no one else.
62 And if he have ten virgins given unto him by this
law, he cannot commit adultery, for they belong to
him, and they are given unto him; therefore is he
justified.
Matthew 22 (New International Version)
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2022;&version=31;
29 Jesus replied, "You are in error because you do
not know the Scriptures or the power of God.
30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor
be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in
heaven.
I AM
> According to official LDS texts, will there be polygamy in the
> afterlife?
According to current LDS general authorities, those whose first wives
have passed on, they have been eternally sealed to others.
What do you think?
dfo...@gl.umbc.edu
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/1_ne/18
25 And it came to pass that we did find upon the
land of promise, as we journeyed in the wilderness,
that there were beasts in the forests of every kind,
both the cow and the ox, and the ass and the horse,
and the goat and the wild goat, and all manner of
wild animals, which were for the use of men. And
we did find all manner of ore, both of gold, and of
silver, and of copper.
Where did the "ox" referred to above come from?
ox
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ox
1: a domestic bovine mammal (Bos taurus);
broadly : a bovine mammal
2: an adult castrated male domestic ox
When did horses first appear in the Americas? (with the arrival of
the Spanish conquistadors? or earlier?)
What are the 3 strongest lines of archeological evidence helping to
demonstrate the validity of the Book of Mormon?
I AM
> The First Book of Nephi, Chapter 18http://scriptures.lds.org/en/1_ne/18
> 25 And it came to pass that we did find upon the
> land of promise, as we journeyed in the wilderness,
> that there were beasts in the forests of every kind,
> both the cow and the ox, and the ass and the horse,
> and the goat and the wild goat, and all manner of
> wild animals, which were for the use of men. And
> we did find all manner of ore, both of gold, and of
> silver, and of copper.
>
> Where did the "ox" referred to above come from?
Its parents ...
dfo...@gl.umbc.edu
in The Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/ether/15
29 Wherefore, he did pursue them, and on the
morrow he did overtake them; and they fought again
with the sword. And it came to pass that when they
had all fallen by the sword, save it were
Coriantumr and Shiz, behold Shiz had fainted with
the loss of blood.
30 And it came to pass that when Coriantumr had
leaned upon his sword, that he rested a little, he
smote off the head of Shiz.
31 And it came to pass that after he had smitten off
the head of Shiz, that Shiz raised up on his hands
and fell; and after that he had struggled for breath,
he died.
32 And it came to pass that Coriantumr fell to the
earth, and became as if he had no life.
dfo...@gl.umbc.edu
tablets, when in actuality he fabricated it.
King James Version of the Bible.
Below appears portions of:
Matthew 6 in the King James Version of the Bible, and
the Book of Mormon's 3 Nephi 13.
Comparison of the two entire chapters reveals extremely close
similarity.
Smith adds some text to verse 25,
deletes text from verses 32 and 10, and
deletes entirely KJV verse 11.
While doing his copying of Matthew 6, Smith neglected to include all
of the KJV rendition of the Lord's Prayer. How come?
3 Nephi 13
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/3_ne/13
9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father
who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name.
10 Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
11 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our
debtors.
12 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us
from evil.
13 For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the
glory, forever. Amen.
14 For, if ye forgive men their trespasses your
heavenly Father will also forgive you;
15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses neither
will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Matthew 6 (King James Version)
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew%206;&version=9;
9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father
which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as
it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our
debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us
from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power,
and the glory, for ever. Amen.
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your
heavenly Father will also forgive you:
15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither
will your Father forgive your trespasses.
//////////////////
Joseph Smith's Mosiah 14 copied from KJV Isaiah 53
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.mormon/msg/582d05f44690f6e6
dfo...@gl.umbc.edu
Asks questions that usually go unanswered.
When do you think there first were elephants running around in the
Americas?
What are cureloms and cumoms?
The Book of Ether, Chapter 9
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/ether/9
19 And they also had horses, and asses, and there
were elephants and cureloms and cumoms; all of
which were useful unto man, and more especially
the elephants and cureloms and cumoms.
/////////////////
Ten Lies I Told as a Mormon Missionary
by Loren Franck
http://www.mrm.org/topics/evangelism-issues/ten-lies-i-told-a-mormon-missionary
NickYoungh
> Asks questions that usually go unanswered.
What is the use of parotting anti mormon sites on an exantimo
discussiongroup ?
You think the others overhere did not have asked the same questions
many times before ?
Did you not read the postings of Darrick, he came to 18 lies.
> When do you think there first were elephants running around in the
> Americas?
Never, ever, which BoM verses gave you that ridicilous idea ?
>
> What are cureloms and cumoms?
JS dictated these things, with a thick tongue while in trance, he must
have said camels, bactian camels and Arabian camels, dromedars.
>
> The Book of Ether, Chapter 9http://scriptures.lds.org/en/ether/9
> 19 And they also had horses, and asses, and there
> were elephants and cureloms and cumoms; all of
> which were useful unto man, and more especially
The undated book of Ether recounts as well the story of a two million
men army of a king Coreantumr. The father of historywriting Herodotus
tells us that the Persian king Xerxes I invaded Greece with an army of
2 million men. In the army of Xerxes there were elephants, horses,
camels, dromedars and asses.
Xerxes is called Coresh, the blessed, in the bible.
So the BoM is situated in the old world middle east and the old world
animals should be dated about 350bC
dfo...@gl.umbc.edu
1 Nephi 16
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/1_ne/16
18 And it came to pass that as I, Nephi, went forth
to slay food, behold, I did break my bow, which was
made of fine steel; and after I did break my bow,
behold, my brethren were angry with me because of
the loss of my bow, for we did obtain no food.
Ether 7
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/ether/7
9 Wherefore, he came to the hill Ephraim, and he
did molten out of the hill, and made swords out of
steel for those whom he had drawn away with
him....
2 Nephi 5
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_ne/5
15 And I did teach my people to build buildings, and
to work in all manner of wood, and of iron, and of
copper, and of brass, and of steel, and of gold, and
of silver, and of precious ores, which were in great
abundance.
NickYoungh
> The First Book of Nephi, Chapter 18http://scriptures.lds.org/en/1_ne/18
> 25 And it came to pass that we did find upon the
> land of promise, as we journeyed in the wilderness,
> that there were beasts in the forests of every kind,
> both the cow and the ox, and the ass and the horse,
> and the goat and the wild goat, and all manner of
> wild animals, which were for the use of men. And
> we did find all manner of ore, both of gold, and of
> silver, and of copper.
>
> Where did the "ox" referred to above come from?
You should read 1 Nephi 18:23 and we arrived at "the promised
land" (Israel)
all those animals are common in the middle east.
Also the seeds taken from Jerusalem grew inabundance.
big deal, seeds of Jerusalem, did grow well Judea/
> When did horses first appear in the Americas? (with the arrival of
> the Spanish conquistadors? or earlier?)
with the Spanish under Mendoza in Argentinia.1537
With verses in the BoM say that these horses were in America
> What are the 3 strongest lines of archeological evidence helping to
> demonstrate the validity of the Book of Mormon?
The holy city Jerusalem
The Herodium
The fortifications of Mithridates 6 in Armenia
Historical evidence:
The destuction of Jerusalem (Lehi)
The murder of Gedalya by Ismael.(Ismael)
The circumnavigation of Africa by Pharao Necho (Nephi)
The linguist king Mithridate 6 of Pont who spoke 25 languages fluently
(Mosiah)
The 110 years old Ermanarich who died at the age of 110 at the Hun
battle.(Mormon)
NickYoungh
> morrow he did overtake them; and they fought again
> with the sword. And it came to pass that when they
> had all fallen by the sword, save it were
> Coriantumr and Shiz, behold Shiz had fainted with
> the loss of blood.
> 30 And it came to pass that when Coriantumr had
> leaned upon his sword, that he rested a little, he
> smote off the head of Shiz.
> 31 And it came to pass that after he had smitten off
> the head of Shiz, that Shiz raised up on his hands
> and fell; and after that he had struggled for breath,
> he died.
> 32 And it came to pass that Coriantumr fell to the
> earth, and became as if he had no life.
This king Coreantumr had an army of 2 million man, what makes him the
Persian king Xerxes, Coresh in the Bible.
The furious battle of 3 days and nights where only a few died, was the
battle of Thermopilae.
That makes Shiz the Spartan king Leonidas, who lost the battle but
continued fighting. When Xerxes learned that the dead body of Leonidas
was found on the battle field, he had him hanged on a cross and
personally smote off the head of the dead body.
That Leonidas kept on fighting without head will not be doubted by any
scholar.
I have answered the same questions several times before.
Your next questions I will answer by copying my previous postings
http://groups.google.nl/group/the-book-of-mormon-in-the-classical-historywriting?hl=en
NickYoungh
> Also, when was steel 1st made?
The trek of the people of Nephi around 550bC who became gold and
steelsword smiths sheppards, was the Thracian tribe of the Chalibes of
Exhalibur fame on their historical trek to north east of the Black
Sea.
> 2 Nephi 5http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_ne/5
dfo...@gl.umbc.edu
I dunno. Can you read Greek, or Hebrew?
(I can't read Greek-- nor Hebrew-- and am grateful that translators
prepared translations of the Bible.)
"someone re-wrote the Bible to make it more 'hip', more 'today',
more.... likeable"
Do you think that was the case with the King James translation?
The website
http://scriptures.lds.org
has the King James Version translation of the Old and New Testaments,
however, that website lacks several KJV-translated books from the Old
Testament.
To see the OT books that are missing, locate a Catholic Bible.
"I do not believe the NIV version of the bible is correct nor
inspired"
Do you think the KJV translation is reasonably accurate?
Which is more accurate:
1) the KJV translation of the Lord's Prayer,
or
2) Joseph Smith's rendition of the Lord's Prayer (which he lifted from
the KJV translation, and in the process left out some text thereof--
see
Matthew 6:9+
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/matt/6
and compare
3 Nephi 13:9+
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/3_ne/13
)?
"your arguments from it are bogus and not credible"
Do you disagree with any of this?:
Matthew 22 (KJV)
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/matt/22
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err,
not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor
are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God
in heaven.
Caleope
<dfo...@gl.umbc.edu> wrote in message
news:ccd0e7cc-9e8b-42ed...@c58g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
If you're a sexually perverted FLDS man who desires sex with underage girls
you don't want to know about that scripture.
dfo...@gl.umbc.edu
prevail against it."
Was that an accurate claim Jesus made?
Or was that claim by Jesus incorrect?
Matthew 16 (KJV)
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/matt/16
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed
art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath
not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in
heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter,
and upon this rock I will build my church; and the
gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
=============================
Where was Jesus born?
Alma 7
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/alma/7
10 And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at
Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, she
being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who
shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power
of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even
the Son of God.
Matthew 2 (KJV)
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/matt/2
1 Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of
Judaea in the days of Herod the king....
=============================
Do you think there is more than one God?
Alma 11
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/alma/11
26 And Zeezrom said unto him: Thou sayest there
is a true and living God?
27 And Amulek said: Yea, there is a true and living
God.
28 Now Zeezrom said: Is there more than one God?
29 And he answered, No.
30 Now Zeezrom said unto him again: How knowest
thou these things?
31 And he said: An angel hath made them known
unto me.
hilton hotel pen
> Jesus said this about His church: "the gates of hell shall not
> prevail against it."
>
> Was that an accurate claim Jesus made?
> Or was that claim by Jesus incorrect?
If you the below scripture you quote, the "it"
refers to revelation. Hell cannot prevail
against it.
>
> Matthew 16 (KJV)http://scriptures.lds.org/en/matt/16
> 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed
> art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath
> not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in
> heaven.
> 18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter,
> and upon this rock I will build my church; and the
> gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
>
> =============================
> Where was Jesus born?
>
> Alma 7http://scriptures.lds.org/en/alma/7
> 10 And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at
> Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, she
> being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who
> shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power
> of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even
> the Son of God.
>
> Matthew 2 (KJV)http://scriptures.lds.org/en/matt/2
> 1 Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of
> Judaea in the days of Herod the king....
>
I AM at Miami right now ...
dfo...@gl.umbc.edu
rumormongering re: God.
Do you think there "is one Eternal God"?
Also, is God a "Great Spirit"?
Alma 11
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/alma/11
44....and shall be brought and be arraigned before
the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and
the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be
judged according to their works, whether they be
good or whether they be evil.
Alma 22
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/alma/22
8 And now when Aaron heard this, his heart began
to rejoice, and he said: Behold, assuredly as thou
livest, O king, there is a God.
9 And the king said: Is God that Great Spirit that
brought our fathers out of the land of Jerusalem?
10 And Aaron said unto him: Yea, he is that Great
Spirit, and he created all things both in heaven and
in earth. Believest thou this?
Greg
<dfo...@gl.umbc.edu> wrote in message
news:b482e06e-e695-41b2...@f63g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> Jesus said this about His church: "the gates of hell shall not
> prevail against it."
> Was that an accurate claim Jesus made? > Or was that claim by Jesus
incorrect?
Of Course Jesus was perfectly correct. His Church is worshiping Him today
exactly the same way it did thousands of years ago.If the gates of hell had
prevailed His church would have disapeared.
The thing most people do not get is the difference between Christs Church
and man made religion. Christs church is not a religion nor a denomination
nor a building nor a chapel nor a Temple nor those within the
aforementioned. As sitting in MacDonalds does not make one a Big Mac,
sitting in a man made church does not make one a Christian. Nor beliving in
man made doctrines.
In fact the Bible is explicit that Christs Church is the body of people whom
know and worship the one True God in Spirit and in Truth through Jesus
Christ and whom follow His Comandments. The remnent of His Church are found
in many homes and even many are found in "churches".
As the Bible is explicit that The Church is thsoe found worshiping in Spirit
and in Truth in a house.
(Rom 16:5) Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Greet my
beloved Epenetus, who is the first-fruits of Achaia to Christ.
(1Co 16:19) The churches of Asia greet you. Aquila and Priscilla greet you
much in the Lord, with the church that is in their house.
(Col 4:15) Greet the brothers who are in Laodicea, and Nymphas, and the
church in his house.
Nothing has changed Christ Jesus Church is alive and well and found
worshiping Him in Spirit and In Truth despite persecution in homes from
China to Nigeria. His church is also found in people worshiping in "church"
buildings from Sydney to New York, His church is even found in the odd
person seeking Him and truth and rejecting heresy in LDS chapels around the
world though the falacy of mormonsim makes it difficult for man to Born
again as The Lord draws the elect to His Bride they will reject lies and
decide to seek truth alone. It those that decide to ignore truth to stay in
false religion as the Pharisees did that decide to reject the wonderful
Salvation that is in Christ alone for darkness. As the scripture states
(Pro 26:11) As a dog returns to its vomit, so a fool returns to his folly.
Greg
dfo...@gl.umbc.edu
John 2 (King James Version)
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%202;&version=9;
1 And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the
mother of Jesus was there:
2 And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage.
3 And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They
have no wine.
4 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour
is not yet come.
5 His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do
it.
6 And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of
the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece.
7 Jesus saith unto them, Fill the waterpots with water. And they
filled them up to the brim.
8 And he saith unto them, Draw out now, and bear unto the governor of
the feast. And they bare it.
9 When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine,
and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water
knew;) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom,
10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good
wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou
hast kept the good wine until now.
11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and
manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.
Do you think it was immoral for Jesus to, during the Last Supper:
drink wine?
distribute wine to His disciples?
Matthew 26 (KJV)
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2026;&version=9;
26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and
brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is
my body.
27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying,
Drink ye all of it;
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many
for the remission of sins.
29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of
the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's
kingdom.
Do you think it was immoral for the early church to drink wine during
remembrances of the Lord's Supper?
(see especially verse 21 below)
1 Corinthians 11
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20corinthians%2011;&version=9;
20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat
the Lord's supper.
21 For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one
is hungry, and another is drunken.
22 What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the
church of God, and shame them that have not? what shall I say to you?
shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.
23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto
you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took
bread:
24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat:
this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of
me.
25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped,
saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft
as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew
the Lord's death till he come.
27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the
Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread,
and drink of that cup.
29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh
damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
Do you think it's OK to use a little wine for medicinal purposes?
Luke 10 (KJV)
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke%2010;&version=9;
34 And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine,
and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care
of him.
1 Timothy 5 (KJV)
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20timothy%205;&version=9;
23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake
and thine often infirmities.
hilton hotel pen
> Do you think Jesus did anything immoral in turning water into wine?
>
> 26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and
> brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is
> my body.
> 27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying,
> Drink ye all of it;
> 28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many
> for the remission of sins.
> 29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of
> the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's
> kingdom.
>
> Do you think it was immoral for the early church to drink wine during
> remembrances of the Lord's Supper?
> (see especially verse 21 below)
>
> 34 And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine,
> and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care
> of him.
>
> 23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake
> and thine often infirmities.
Matt 26:29
dfo...@gl.umbc.edu
Is God the same yesterday, today, and forever?
Did God create the heavens and the earth, and all things that are in
them?
Moroni 8
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/moro/8
18 For I know that God is not a partial God, neither
a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from
all eternity to all eternity.
Mormon 9
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/morm/9
9 For do we not read that God is the same
yesterday, today, and forever, and in him there is no
variableness neither shadow of changing?
10 And now, if ye have imagined up unto yourselves
a god who doth vary, and in whom there is shadow
of changing, then have ye imagined up unto
yourselves a god who is not a God of miracles.
11 But behold, I will show unto you a God of
miracles, even the God of Abraham, and the God of
Isaac, and the God of Jacob; and it is that same
God who created the heavens and the earth, and all
things that in them are.
Jimmy Alpha
One can only wonder what the word "henceforth" means?
hilton hotel pen
>
> - Show quoted text -
It means from this point on ...
Jimmy Alpha
Oh, then it really wasn't addressing the question was it.
hilton hotel pen
>
> - Show quoted text -
No, it didn't address the question.
Just answered several.
One, jesus quit drinking wine.
Two, GOD will be drinking wine in heaven (how
is that possible if he is a spirit?)
etc etc
JohnH
You do realize that this was said at Passover, right? In a manner of
speaking, you're correct, He did quit drinking...and also eating, and
also living in a human body...after that Passover, which was to be His
last. So the overshadowing significance to all of this is not in
Jesus telling His disciples that He would quite drinking wine, but in
His saying that this would be His final Passover, on earth, with
them. You might also want to find a Messianic group in your area that
can explain in detail all of the special elements of a typical Jewish
Passover feast, including the significance of the cups.
JohnH
You do realize that this was said at Passover, right? In a manner of
speaking, you're correct, He did quit drinking...and also eating, and
also living in a human body...after that Passover, which was to be His
last. So the overshadowing significance to all of this is not in
Jesus telling His disciples that He would quite drinking wine, but in
His saying that this would be His final Passover, on earth, with
them. You might also want to find a Messianic group in your area that
can explain in detail all of the special elements of a typical Jewish
Passover feast, including the significance of the cups.
>
JohnH
You do realize that this was said at Passover, right? In a manner of
speaking, you're correct, He did quit drinking...and also eating, and
also living in a human body...after that Passover, which was to be His
last. So the overshadowing significance to all of this is not in
Jesus telling His disciples that He would quite drinking wine, but in
His saying that this would be His final Passover, on earth, with
them. You might also want to find a Messianic group in your area that
can explain in detail all of the special elements of a typical Jewish
Passover feast, including the significance of the cups.
>
dfo...@gl.umbc.edu
God"?
Do you agree that after death, "Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to
that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God"?
Alma 34
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/alma/34
31 Yea, I would that ye would come forth and
harden not your hearts any longer; for behold, now
is the time and the day of your salvation; and
therefore, if ye will repent and harden not your
hearts, immediately shall the great plan of
redemption be brought about unto you.
32 For behold, this life is the time for men to
prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life
is the day for men to perform their labors.
33 And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have
had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you
that ye do not procrastinate the day of your
repentance until the end; for after this day of life,
which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if
we do not improve our time while in this life, then
cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be
no labor performed.
34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful
crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God.
Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which
doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out
of this life, that same spirit will have power to
possess your body in that eternal world.
35 For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of
your repentance even until death, behold, ye have
become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he
doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord
hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you,
and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the
final state of the wicked.
////////////////////////////////////////
Compare
2 Nephi 9
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_ne/9
15 And it shall come to pass that when all men shall
have passed from this first death unto life, insomuch
as they have become immortal, they must appear
before the judgment-seat of the Holy One of Israel;
and then cometh the judgment, and then must they
be judged according to the holy judgment of God.
16 And assuredly, as the Lord liveth, for the Lord
God hath spoken it, and it is his eternal word, which
cannot pass away, that they who are righteous shall
be righteous still, and they who are filthy shall be
filthy still; wherefore, they who are filthy are the devil
and his angels; and they shall go away into
everlasting fire, prepared for them; and their torment
is as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flame
ascendeth up forever and ever and has no end.
The Book of Mormon was the fabrication of the con-man Joseph Smith.
Nevertheless, Smith did get some things right while fabricating his
Book of Mormon: compare the extracts above with:
Hebrews 9 (King James Version)
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%209;&version=9;
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but
after this the judgment:
2 Corinthians 6 (KJV)
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Corinthians%206;&version=9;
2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time
accepted, and in the day of salvation have I
succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time;
behold, now is the day of salvation.)
Hebrews 3
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=65&chapter=3&version=9;
6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose
house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the
rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye
will hear his voice,
8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in
the day of temptation in the wilderness:
Revelation 20 (KJV)
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2020;&version=9;
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat
on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled
away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand
before God; and the books were opened: and
another book was opened, which is the book of life:
and the dead were judged out of those things which
were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it;
and death and hell delivered up the dead which
were in them: and they were judged every man
according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.
This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the
book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
SongBookz
"JohnH" <johnhe...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:457742e7-c4cf-4dbc...@f24g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
This statement, "I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine" is a
Nazarite vow (Num. 8, If I recall the passage correctly) which is why He is
depicted in Revelations with long white hair.
Terrell
Jimmy Alpha
Wasn't that answered when you clarified "henceforth"?
> You do realize that this was said at Passover, right? In a manner of
> speaking, you're correct, He did quit drinking...and also eating, and
> also living in a human body...after that Passover, which was to be His
> last. So the overshadowing significance to all of this is not in
> Jesus telling His disciples that He would quite drinking wine, but in
> His saying that this would be His final Passover, on earth, with
> them. You might also want to find a Messianic group in your area that
> can explain in detail all of the special elements of a typical Jewish
> Passover feast, including the significance of the cups.
Did you have something you wanted to add, 2 or 3 times JohnH? 8-)
>> Two, GOD will be drinking wine in heaven
God the son Jesus will be perhaps, God the Holy God the Father can do as
He pleases.
>> (how is that possible if he is a spirit?)
Ya didn't answer that one, so lets keep it a mystery!
dfo...@gl.umbc.edu
http://www.journalofdiscourses.org/Vol_06/refJDvol6-1.html
I have an old edition of the New Testament in the
Hebrew, Latin, German, and Greek languages. I
have been reading the German, and find it to be the
most correct translation, and to correspond nearest
to the revelations which God has given to me for the
last fourteen years.
==
Now, I ask all who hear me, why the learned men
who are preaching salvation say that God created
the heavens and the earth out of nothing? The
reason is, that they are unlearned in the things of
God and have not the gift of the Holy Ghost. They
account it blasphemy in any one to contradict their
idea. If you tell them that God made the world out of
something, they will call you a fool. But I am
learned, and know more than all the world put
together.
==
Hear it, all ye ends of the world; for God has told me
so; and if you don't believe me, it will not make the
truth without effect. I will make a man appear a fool
before I get through, if he does not believe it.
==
....when I tell you of these things which were given
me by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, you are bound
to receive them as sweet, and I rejoice more and
more.
//////////////////////////
"Now, I ask all who hear me, why the learned men who are preaching
salvation say that God created the heavens and the earth out of
nothing?"
The Search for a Loophole to the Beginning of the Universe in the
creation out of nothing that was the Big Bang
http://groups.google.com/group/talk.origins/msg/443d6bc0b02dd25e?dmode=source
erroneous claims in the Babble
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1156770348.117388.43940%40i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
dfo...@gl.umbc.edu
truth. There must be faith."
I'll define 'faith' as 'the gap between evidence and belief'-- if
there's a large gap, there's much faith, and if the gap is small,
little faith is required to believe the claim.
LDS thought is a pack of lies, and it strongly goes contrary to the
evidence; to believe in LDS thought requires *much* faith.
There are strong lines of evidence and argument in support of
Christianity;
to believe in Christianity requires far less faith than believing in
the pack of lies that is LDS thought.
1 Thessalonians 5 (King James Version)
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Thessalonians%205;&version=9;
21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
1 Thessalonians 5 (New International Version)
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Thessalonians%205;&version=31;
21 Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Acts 17 (KJV)
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=acts%2017;&version=9;
10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto
Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they
received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the
scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
Acts 17 (NIV)
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=acts%2017;&version=31;
11 Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the
Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and
examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
Acts 26 (KJV)
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=acts%2026;&version=9;
25 But he [Paul] said, I am not mad, most noble Festus; but speak
forth the words of truth and soberness.
Acts 26 (NIV)
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=acts%2026;&version=31;
25 "I am not insane, most excellent Festus," Paul replied. "What I am
saying is true and reasonable.
dfo...@gl.umbc.edu
their truthfulness....
God Bless America!"
Do you think it's true that people can become Gods?
Do you think Romney will become a God?
Smith, Joseph. 6 April 1844. "King Follett Discourse"
http://www.journalofdiscourses.org/Vol_06/refJDvol6-1.html
Here, then, is eternal life-to know the only wise and
true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods
yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the
same as all Gods have done before you,-namely, by
going from one small degree to another, and from a
small capacity to a great one,-from grace to grace,
from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the
resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in
everlasting burnings and to sit in glory, as do those
who sit enthroned in everlasting power.
==
What is it? To inherit the same power, the same
glory, and the same exaltation, until you arrive at
the station of a God and ascend the throne of
eternal power, the same as those who have gone
before.
I AM
> "It's true that doctrines may be incomplete or incorrect according to
> their truthfulness....
> God Bless America!"
>
> Do you think it's true that people can become Gods?
Of course.
You should really open up that bible of yours.
>
> Do you think Romney will become a God?
Don't know. Never met him. He seems like
a cuddly teddy bear ...
David Morgan (MAMS)
"Greg" <grandall11@optusnet(dot)com(dot)au> wrote in message news:482ac688$0$13946$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
> Of Course Jesus was perfectly correct. His Church is worshiping Him today
> exactly the same way it did thousands of years ago.If the gates of hell had
> prevailed His church would have disapeared.
Unless, of course, your man-made churches *are* the gates of hell.
> The thing most people do not get is the difference between Christs Church
> and man made religion. Christs church is not a religion nor a denomination
> nor a building nor a chapel nor a Temple nor those within the
> aforementioned. As sitting in MacDonalds does not make one a Big Mac,
> sitting in a man made church does not make one a Christian. Nor beliving in
> man made doctrines.
Two very strangely juxtaposed paragraphs.... perfectly contradictory.
duke
>Do you think that "this life is the time for men to prepare to meet
>God"?
>
>Do you agree that after death, "Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to
>that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God"?
Absolutely. You make your choice when it could be made.
duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
dfo...@gl.umbc.edu
> On May 15, 9:07 am, dfo...@gl.umbc.edu wrote:
> > Do you think it's true that people can become Gods?
>
> Of course.
> You should really open up that bible of yours.
Do you disagree with anything here?:
Moroni 8
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/moro/8
18 For I know that God is not a partial God, neither
a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from
all eternity to all eternity.
Mormon 9
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/morm/9
9 For do we not read that God is the same
yesterday, today, and forever, and in him there is no
variableness neither shadow of changing?
10 And now, if ye have imagined up unto yourselves
a god who doth vary, and in whom there is shadow
of changing, then have ye imagined up unto
yourselves a god who is not a God of miracles.
11 But behold, I will show unto you a God of
miracles, even the God of Abraham, and the God of
Isaac, and the God of Jacob; and it is that same
God who created the heavens and the earth, and all
things that in them are.
> > Do you think Romney will become a God?
dfo...@gl.umbc.edu
> On May 12, 10:23 am, dfo...@gl.umbc.edu wrote:
> > According to official LDS texts, will there be polygamy in the
> > afterlife?
>
> have passed on, they have been eternally sealed to others.
>
> What do you think?
Who is "they"?
Meaning of "sealed"?
"LDS general authorities" looked at which LDS texts re: these matters?
John Manning
This is what it says in the Bible:
"I am the LORD, I change not."
Malachi 3:6
Then why does the LDS Church teach the lie that God was once a man like
us who *became* a god?
"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits
enthroned in yonder heavens. That is the great secret... It is the first
principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God and
to know...that he was once a man like us.
Here, then, is eternal life--to know that only wise and true God, and
you have got to learn how to become Gods yourselves, and to be kings and
priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you. .. God
himself, the father of us all dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ."
~~ The Prophet Joseph Smith Jr, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith
Jr, 342-345, also quoted heavily by the church, see Gospel Principles,
Chapter 47.
"The idea that the Lord our God is not a personage of tabernacle is
entirely a mistaken notion. He was once a man. Brother Kimball quoted a
saying of Joseph the Prophet, that he would not worship a God who had
not a Father; and I do not know that he would if be had not a mother;
the one would be as absurd as the other. If he had a Father, he was made
in his likeness. And if he is our Father we are made after his image and
likeness.
"He once possessed a body, as we now do; and our bodies are as much to
us, as his body to him. Every iota of this organization is necessary to
secure for us an exaltation with the Gods."
~~ Prophet Brigham Young, True Character of God, Salt Lake Tabernacle,
February 23, 1862, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 9, p.286
"What, is it possible that the Father of Heights, the Father of our
spirits, could reduce himself and come forth like a man? Yes, he was
once a man like you and I are and was once on an earth like this, passed
through the ordeal you and I pass through.
"He had his father and his mother and he has been exalted through his
faithfulness, and he is become Lord of all. He is the God pertaining to
this earth. He is our Father. He begot our spirits in the spirit world.
They have come forth and our earthly parents have organized tabernacles
for our spirits and here we are today. That is the way we came.
~~ Prophet Brigham Young, 14 July 1861, Recorded in "The Essential
Brigham Young", p.138
"Many religions teach that human beings are children of God, but often
their conception of Him precludes any kind of bond resembling a
parent-child relationship.
The Prophet Joseph Smith taught of a much simpler and more sensible
relationship: “God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted
man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. If
the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its
orbit … was to make himself visible … , you would see him like a man in
form—like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man;
for Adam was created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God, and
received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with Him, as
one man talks and communes with another.”"
~~ “Strengthening the Family: Created in the Image of God, Male and
Female,” Ensign, Jan. 2005, 48
"The doctrine that God was once a man and has progressed to become a God
is unique to this church."
~~ Official LDS Lesson Manual, 1997, page 34, "The Teachings of Brigham
Young"
"That exalted position was made manifest to me at a very early day. I
had a direct revelation of this. It was most perfect and complete. If
there ever was a thing revealed to man perfectly, clearly, so that there
could be no doubt or dubiety, this was revealed to me, and it came in
these words: "As man now is, God once was; as God now is, man may be."
This may appear to some minds as something very strange and remarkable,
but it is in perfect harmony with the teachings of Jesus Christ and with
His promises."
~~ Prophet Lorenzo R. Snow, Unchangeable Love of God, Sunday, September
18, 1898.
"We all know that like begets like and that for the offspring to grow to
the stature of his parent is a process infinitely repeated in nature. We
can therefore understand that for a son of God to grow to the likeness
of his Father in heaven is in harmony with natural law. We see this law
demonstrated every few years in our own experience. Sons born to mortal
fathers grow up to be like their fathers in the flesh. This is the way
it will be with spirit sons of God. They will grow up to be like their
Father in heaven. Joseph taught this obvious truth. As a matter of fact,
he taught that through this process God himself attained perfection.
From President Snow's understanding of the teachings of the Prophet on
this doctrinal point, he coined the familiar couplet: "As man is, God
once was; as God is, man may become." This teaching is peculiar to the
restored gospel of Jesus Christ."
~~ Elder Marion G. Romney, General Conference, October 1964
"We often say, and you have heard the expression as it has already been
referred to in this conference, that "as man now is, God once was, and
as God now is, man may become." The only way man may become as God now
is, is through fulfilling the laws of celestial marriage and the laws of
the gospel, as I have just read to you the word of the Lord from the
D&C. Can we afford to overlook such opportunities for exaltation? Temple
marriage is not just another form of church wedding; it is a divine
covenant with the Lord that if we are faithful to the end, we may become
as God now is."
~~ Elder Eldred G. Smith (Patriarch to the Church), General Conference,
October 1948
"Mormonism be it true or false, holds out to men the greatest
inducements that the human mind can grasp. And so it does... It teaches
men that they can become divine, that man is God in embryo, that God was
once man in mortality, and that the only difference between Gods, angels
and men is a difference in education and development.
Is such a religion to be sneered at? It teaches that the worlds on high,
the stars that glitter in the blue vault of heaven, are kingdoms of God,
that they were once earths like this, that they have been redeemed and
glorified by the same laws, the same principles that are applied to this
planet, and by which it will ascend to a perfected and glorified state.
It teaches that these worlds are peopled with human beings, God's sons
and daughters, and that every husband and father, may become an Adam,
and every wife and mother an Eve, to some future planet."
~~ Orson F. Whitney, Divine Evidences of Truthfulness, Y.M.M.I.A. Annual
Conference, June 9th, 1895.
"So the Prophet Joseph Smith, in this age, has added to this truth by
the assertion that "As man is God once was, and that as He is man may
became," because He is our Father, and like begets like, and inherent
within us are the attributes of divinity that shall lead us into
perfection, which Christ intended His Saints to attain unto."
~~ Elder Joseph E. Robinson, General Conference, April 1912
"God our Heavenly Father is still progressing. While He knows all that
is, all that has been, and possibly all things that He designs for the
future and what will be in the future, yet He is constantly adding to
His dominion, constantly increasing His power, constantly developing in
His resources and in His glorious aspirations. This, at least, is our
understanding of the condition of our Father in heaven.
The thought has been expressed and accepted as a truth, that as we are
now, God has been, and as God is now we may be; and if we admit this to
be a truth-and I have no disposition to dispute it-then I repeat that
even God our Heavenly Father has not reached the ultimatum of His
greatness, His power, or His capacity, but that He is continually
increasing and expanding in power, in dominion, in glory and in
greatness, if I may be permitted to use such terms as these which some
people who know no better would call blasphemous, in connection with the
Supreme Being, the Father of us all.
~~ Prophet Joseph F. Smith, Sustaining Each Other in the Gospel,
Sunday, February 16, 1896.
"We are His children in Very deed, having been born of Him in the
spirit, and we have inherited the very attributes which he possesses.
They are in us, and they make us God's embryo, We believe that as we are
now God once was, and by the practice of virtue and righteousness, by
obedience unto law and authority, He has become what He is, and as He
is, man may become, on the same principle."
~~ Elder George F. Richards, General Conference, April 1913
"The doctrine of the relationship between God and men, as made plain
through the word of revelation, is today as it was of old, though in the
light of later scripture we are enabled to read the meaning more
clearly. It is provided that we, the sons and daughters of God, may
advance until we become like unto our Eternal Father and our Eternal
Mother, in that we may become perfect in our spheres as they are in
theirs. That grand truth, taught by the Prophet Joseph and ridiculed for
the time, has now gripped the minds of the thinkers and philosophers of
the age... It was crystallized into what we may call an aphorism, by
President Lorenzo Snow: 'As man is God once was; as God is man may be'."
~~ Elder James E. Talmage, General Conference, April 1915
"Mormon prophets have continuously taught the sublime truth that God the
Eternal Father was once a mortal man who passed through a school of
earth life similar that through which we are now passing. He became God
- an exalted being - through obedience to the same eternal Gospel truths
that we are given opportunity today to obey."
~~ Elder Milton R. Hunter, The Gospel Through the Ages, p 104
"It is a Mormon truism that is current among us and we all accept it,
that as man is God once was and as God is man may become. That does not
signify that man will become God. I am sorry to say, and yet it is a
truth, that not many men will become what God is, simply because they
will not pay the price, because they are not willing to live up to the
requirements; and still all men may, if they will, become what God is,
but only those who are heirs of the celestial glory shall ever be
possible candidates, to become what God is."
~~ Elder Melvin J. Ballard, General Conference, April 1921
"We remember the numerous scriptures which, concentrated in a single
line, were said by a former prophet, Lorenzo Snow: "As man is, God once
was; and as God is, man may become." This is a power available to us as
we reach perfection and receive the experience and power to create, to
organize, to control native elements. How limited we are now! We have no
power to force the grass to grow, the plants to emerge, the seeds to
develop."
~~ Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, General Conference, April 1977
Steve Seagal
You *must* be a complete moronic jackass.
GOD was a spirit, named jehovah, who then
became flesh (OMFG he changed!), was a man,
died (OMFG his spirit left his physical body, another change!),
went to the spirits in prison, was then reunited with his body(OMFG
another change!), ascended to his father,and then appeared to
his disciples with a body of flesh and bone and decided
to eat, (after teleporting into their room, mind you )...
Etc etc ...
John Manning
But you're lying.
Why do Mormons feel they have to lie about what their church taught?
Why did you snip the clear evidence that the LDS Church taught that God
was a man just like you and me - and then he *became* a god?
You must be ashamed of what your LDS Church leaders actually taught, eh?
WILL YOU SNIP THE TRUTH *FROM OWN LDS CHURCH LEADERS* ... AGAIN?
Here it is again - the truth that the LDS Church taught that God was
once a man just like you and me:
Steve Seagal
The only one lying here is you ...
John Manning
Are you accusing the following leaders of the LDS Church of lying when
they say that God was once a man just like you and me?
It appears that it is YOU who has been caught lying about what your OWN
LDS CHURCH LEADERS TAUGHT, Mr Seagal:
Steve Seagal
Are you saying jesus wasn't a man?
dfo...@gl.umbc.edu
Smith, Joseph. 6 April 1844. "King Follett Discourse"
http://www.journalofdiscourses.org/Vol_06/refJDvol6-1.html
A question may be asked-"Will mothers have their
children in eternity?" Yes! yes! Mothers, you shall
have your children; for they shall have eternal life;
for their debt is paid. There is no damnation awaits
them, for they are in the spirit. But as the child dies,
so shall it rise from the dead, and be for ever living
in the learning of God. It will never grow: it will still
be the child, in the same precise form as it
appeared before it died out of its mother's arms, but
possessing all the intelligence of a God. Children
dwell in the mansions of glory and exercise power,
but appear in the same form as when on earth.
Eternity is full of thrones, upon which dwell
thousands of children reigning on thrones of glory,
with not one cubit added to their stature.
John Manning
No. I am saying you lied when you said the Mormons teach that God the
Father doesn't change.
See for yourself that the LDS [Mormon] Church has taught that God the
Father was once a man just like you and me who *became* a god. And that
the LDS [Mormon] Church has taught that we also may *become* gods just
like your Mormon god the father did.
dfo...@gl.umbc.edu
http://www.journalofdiscourses.org/Vol_06/refJDvol6-1.html
Open your ears and hear, all ye ends of the earth;
for I am going to prove it to you by the Bible, and to
tell you the designs of God in relation to the human
race, and why he interferes with the affairs of man.
God himself was once as we are now, and is an
exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens.
That is the great secret.
==
It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a
certainty the character of God and to know that we
may converse with him as one man converses with
another, and that he was once a man like us; yea,
that God himself the Father of us all, dwelt on an
earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did; and I
will show it from the Bible.
/////////////////////////////////
is God unchangeable from all eternity?;
Moroni 8:18 & Mormon 9:9
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.mormon/msg/188f9d10690ebc93
paid in full
i already addressed this; however, when I do, it appears you
ignore it and post some other alleged contradiction; you really
need to open your bible and put *EVERYTHING* in context ...
See, when you take *ONE* verse, this verse in neccessarily
out of context, as the rest is the context ...
Something you might want to learn ...
David Morgan (MAMS)
<dfo...@gl.umbc.edu> wrote in message...
> Does anybody currently believe this?
If you just like believing in Con men.... otherwise.... I think not.
It's a wonderful road to brainwashing a mourning mother, though,
and assuring her weekly tithe is generous.
dfo...@gl.umbc.edu
Do you think this was a correct prophecy?:
"the Lord Omnipotent... shall come down from heaven among the children
of men, and shall dwell in a tabernacle of clay"
Mosiah 3
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/mosiah/3
2 And the things which I shall tell you are made known unto me by an
angel from God. And he said unto me: Awake; and I awoke, and behold
he stood before me.
3 And he said unto me: ....
5 For behold, the time cometh, and is not far distant, that with
power, the Lord Omnipotent who reigneth, who was, and is from all
eternity to all eternity, shall come down from heaven among the
children of men, and shall dwell in a tabernacle of clay, and shall go
forth amongst men, working mighty miracles, such as healing the sick,
raising the dead, causing the lame to walk, the blind to receive their
sight, and the deaf to hear, and curing all manner of diseases.
6 And he shall cast out devils, or the evil spirits which dwell in the
hearts of the children of men.
7 And lo, he shall suffer temptations, and pain of body, hunger,
thirst, and fatigue, even more than man can suffer, except it be unto
death; for behold, blood cometh from every pore, so great shall be his
anguish for the wickedness and the abominations of his people.
8 And he shall be called Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of
heaven and earth, the Creator of all things from the beginning; and
his mother shall be called Mary.
//////////////////////////////////////////
Mosiah 7:27
Do you think this has a correct prophecy?:
"a prophet of the Lord.... said unto them that... God should come down
among the children of men, and take upon him flesh and blood"
Mosiah 7
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/mosiah/7
26 And a prophet of the Lord have they slain; yea, a chosen man of
God, who told them of their wickedness and abominations, and
prophesied of many things which are to come, yea, even the coming of
Christ.
27 And because he said unto them that Christ was the God, the Father
of all things, and said that he should take upon him the image of man,
and it should be the image after which man was created in the
beginning; or in other words, he said that man was created after the
image of God, and that God should come down among the children of men,
and take upon him flesh and blood, and go forth upon the face of the
earth—
28 And now, because he said this, they....
//////////////////////////////////////////
Mosiah 15:3-4
About "The Father... and the Son," do you think that "they are one
God"?
Mosiah 15
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/mosiah/15
1 And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand
that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall
redeem his people.
2 And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God,
and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the
Father and the Son—
3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the
Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son—
4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of
earth.
5 And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the
Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the
temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast
out, and disowned by his people.
6 And after all this, after working many mighty miracles among the
children of men, he shall be led, yea, even as Isaiah said, as a sheep
before the shearer is dumb, so he opened not his mouth.
//////////////////////////////////////////
I ask you, [Alma 11:38]"Is the Son of God the very Eternal Father?"
(compare Mosiah 7:27: "he ['a prophet of the Lord'] said unto them
that Christ was the God, the Father of all things")
Do you agree that [Alma 11:44]"Christ the Son, and God the Father, and
the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God"?
Alma 11
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/alma/11
38 Now Zeezrom saith again unto him: Is the Son of God the very
Eternal Father?
39 And Amulek said unto him: Yea, he is the very Eternal Father of
heaven and of earth, and all things which in them are; he is the
beginning and the end, the first and the last;
....
44 Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both
bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the
righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads
be lost; but every thing shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it
is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before
the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit,
which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works,
whether they be good or whether they be evil.
//////////////////////////////////////////
Is God "unchangeable from all eternity"?
Moroni 8
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/moro/8
18 For I know that God is not a partial God, neither
a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from
all eternity to all eternity.
////////////////////////////////////////////////
Do you think that "God is the same yesterday, today, and forever"?
Do you think "the God of Jacob... created the heavens and the earth,
and all things that in them are"?
Mormon 9
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/morm/9
9 For do we not read that God is the same
yesterday, today, and forever, and in him there is no
variableness neither shadow of changing?
10 And now, if ye have imagined up unto yourselves
a god who doth vary, and in whom there is shadow
of changing, then have ye imagined up unto
yourselves a god who is not a God of miracles.
11 But behold, I will show unto you a God of
miracles, even the God of Abraham, and the God of
Isaac, and the God of Jacob; and it is that same
God who created the heavens and the earth, and all
things that in them are.
////////////////////////////////////////////////
Do you think there is more than one God?
Alma 11
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/alma/11
26 And Zeezrom said unto him: Thou sayest there
is a true and living God?
27 And Amulek said: Yea, there is a true and living
God.
28 Now Zeezrom said: Is there more than one God?
29 And he answered, No.
30 Now Zeezrom said unto him again: How knowest
thou these things?
31 And he said: An angel hath made them known
unto me.
////////////////////////////////////////////////
Matthew 16:17: Father not flesh & blood
Matthew 16 (King James Version)
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew%2016;&version=9;
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed
art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath
not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in
heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter,
and upon this rock I will build my church; and the
gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Guy R. Briggs
dfo...@gl.umbc.edu wrote:
> Mosiah 3:5
>
> Do you think this was a correct prophecy?:
> "the Lord Omnipotent... shall come down from heaven among
> the children of men, and shall dwell in a tabernacle of clay"
>
Yes. Hand in hand with Isaiah's prophecy that a child born who
would be called Wonderful, Counsellor, the Mighty God, the Everlasting
Father, and the Prince of Peace".
<snip>
> Mosiah 7:27
>
> Do you think this has a correct prophecy?:
> "a prophet of the Lord.... said unto them that... God should
> come down among the children of men, and take upon him flesh
> and blood"
>
Yes. See above.
<snip>
> Mosiah 15:3-4
>
> About "The Father... and the Son," do you think that "they
> are one God"?
>
Ontologically? No. In mind and purpose? Yes.
"Neither pray I [Jesus] for these [disciples] alone,
but for them also which shall believe on me through
their word;
"That THEY ALL MAY BE ONE; as thou, Father, art in
me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us:
that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
"And the glory which thou gavest me I have given
them; that THEY MAY BE ONE, EVEN AS WE ARE ONE:
"I in them, and thou in me, that THEY MAY BE MADE
PERFECT IN ONE; and that the world may know that
thou hast sent me, and hast bloved them, as thou
hast loved me."
-- John 17:20-23 (emphasis mine)
Are the disciples ontologically one? No. Are they one in mind and
purpose? Yes.
<snip Mosiah 15, Alma 11:38,44 and Mosiah 7:27>
Perhaps the following would be helpful - it was published over the
signatures of the First Presidency of the Mormon church, almost a
century ago:
"The term "Father" as applied to Deity occurs in
sacred writ with plainly different meanings. Each of
the four significations specified in the following
treatment should be carefully segregated.
"1. 'Father' as Literal Parent
"Scriptures embodying the ordinary signification -
literally that of Parent - are too numerous and
specific to require citation. The purport of these
scriptures is to the effect that God the Eternal
Father, whom we designate by the exalted name-title
'Elohim,' is the literal Parent of our Lord and
Savior Jesus Christ, and of the spirits of the human
race. Elohim is the Father in every sense in which
Jesus Christ is so designated, and distinctively He
is the Father of spirits. Thus we read in the
Epistle to the Hebrews: 'Furthermore we have had
fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave
them reverence; shall we not much rather be in
subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?'
(Hebrews 12:9). In view of this fact we are taught
by Jesus Christ to pray: 'Our Father which art in
heaven, Hallowed be thy name.'
"Jesus Christ applies to Himself both titles, 'Son'
and 'Father.' Indeed, He specifically said to the
brother of Jared: 'Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am
the Father and the Son' (Ether 3:14). Jesus Christ
is the Son of Elohim both as spiritual and bodily
offspring; that is to say, Elohim is literally the
Father of the spirit of Jesus Christ and also of the
body in which Jesus Christ performed His mission in
the flesh, and which body died on the cross and was
afterward taken up by the process of resurrection,
and is now the immortalized tabernacle of the
eternal spirit of our Lord and Savior. No extended
explanation of the title 'Son of God' as applied to
Jesus Christ appears necessary.
"2. 'Father' as Creator
"A second scriptural meaning of 'Father' is that of
Creator, e.g. in passages referring to any one of
the Godhead as 'The Father of the heavens and of the
earth and all things that in them are' (Ether 4:7;
see also Alma 11:38,39 and Mosiah 15:4).
"God is not the Father of the earth as one of the
worlds in space, nor of the heavenly bodies in whole
or in part, nor of the inanimate objects and the
plants and the animals upon the earth, in the
literal sense in which He is the Father of the
spirits of mankind. Therefore, scriptures that refer
to God in any way as the Father of the heavens and
the earth are to be understood as signifying that
God is the Maker, the Organizer, the Creator of the
heavens and the earth.
"With this meaning, as the context shows in every
case, Jehovah, who is Jesus Christ the Son of Elohim,
is called 'the Father,' and even 'the very eternal
Father of heaven and of earth' (see passages before
cited, and also Mosiah 16:15). With analogous
meaning Jesus Christ is called 'The Everlasting
Father' (Isaiah 9:6; compare 2 Nephi 19:6). The
descriptive titles 'Everlasting' and 'Eternal' in
the foregoing texts are synonymous.
"That Jesus Christ, whom we also know as Jehovah, was
the executive of the Father, Elohim, in the work of
creation is set forth in the book 'Jesus the Christ'
Chapter 4. Jesus Christ, being the Creator, is
consistently called the Father of heaven and earth
in the sense explained above; and since His
creations are of eternal quality He is very properly
called the Eternal Father of heaven and earth."
-- The Father and the Son:
A Doctrinal Exposition,
30-June-1916
>
> Is God "unchangeable from all eternity"?
>
Yes, but probably not in the sense you do.
<snip Moroni 8>
> Do you think that "God is the same yesterday, today, and
> forever"?
>
> Do you think "the God of Jacob... created the heavens and
> the earth, and all things that in them are"?
>
Yes, and yes.
<snip Mormon 9>
> Do you think there is more than one God?
>
Ontologically? Yes. God the Father and God the Son, as examples.
Do I believe there is more than one God in terms of mind and purpose
(as described in John 17, above)? No. In the collective LdS opinion,
neither did Alma.
<snip Alma 11>
> Matthew 16:17: Father not flesh & blood
>
> Matthew 16 (King James Version)
> http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew%2016;&version=9;
> 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed
> art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath
> not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in
> heaven.
> 18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter,
> and upon this rock I will build my church; and the
> gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
>
"Flesh and blood" being synonymous with mortal mankind. It wasn't
because any mortal had convinced Peter that Christ was the son of God,
but rather, it was revealed to him that this was so.
"And upon this rock" - that is, the rock of revelation from God to
man - "I will build my church".
bestRegards, Guy.
dfo...@gl.umbc.edu
embarrassing material.
Below is 1857 D&C material that you might not have seen before.
Richards, Franklin D., ed. 1857. _A Compendium of the Faith and
Doctrines of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.:
Compiled from the Bible; and also from the Book of Mormon, Doctrine
and Covenants, and Other Publications of the Church._ (Liverpool and
London: published by Orson Pratt and L.D.S. Book Depot), 243pp.
Richards was "one of the twelve apostles of said church." A pic of
what's below is at
http://books.google.com/books?id=omwNAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA151&dq=%22the+Father+being+a+personage+of+spirit
On 151:
Doctrine and Covenants.
_Sec._ ii. 6 And the Lord God said unto the Only
Begotten who was with Him from the beginning, Let
us make man in our image, after our likeness; and it
was done.
_Sec._ v. 2 There are two personages who constitute
the great, matchless, governing, and supreme
power over all things-- by whom all things were
created and made, that are created and made,
whether visible or invisible-- whether in heaven, on
earth, or in the earth, under the earth, or throughout
the immensity of space. They are the Father and
the Son-- the Father being a personage of spirit,
glory, and power, possessing all perfection and
fulness-- the Son, who was in the bosom of the
Father, a personage of tabernacle, made or
fashioned like unto man, or being in the form and
likeness of man, or rather man was formed after his
likeness and in his image; he is also the express
image and likeness of the personage of the Father,
possessing all the fulness of the Father, or the
same fulness with the Father; being begotten of
Him, and ordained from before the foundation of the
world to be a propitiation for the sins of all those
who should believe on His name, and is called the
Son because of the flesh.
Jesus in Luke 24:39: "a spirit hath not flesh and bones"
Luke 24 (King James Version)
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke%2024;&version=9;
38 And he [Jesus] said unto them, Why are ye
troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your
hearts?
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself:
handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and
bones, as ye see me have.
40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them
his hands and his feet.
Duwaynea Anderson
<snip>
> > Do you think that "God is the same yesterday, today, and
> > forever"?
>
> > Do you think "the God of Jacob... created the heavens and
> > the earth, and all things that in them are"?
>
> Yes, and yes.
Guy may or may not personally believe that god doesn't change, but
prophets of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints have
taught that god does change. In fact, it's a core part of LDS
doctrine called "eternal progression." Mormon prophets have even
taught that god the father was once a mortal man who lived on another
planet, and so on and so forth.
Mormonism is a fractured, inconsistent, and sloppily built religion
that is going through an extended period of shedding some of its more
notorious doctrines. That's certainly not something folks would
expect from a religion that is lead by a "living prophet," but it does
help explain (some of the time) why church apologists act the way they
do.
<snip to end>
Duwayne Anderson
Author of "Farewell to Eden: Coming to terms with Mormonism and
science"
American Quarter Horse: The ultimate all-terrain vehicle
John Manning
> On May 21, 9:21 am, "Guy R. Briggs" <netz...@geocities.com> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>>>Do you think that "God is the same yesterday, today, and
>>>forever"?
>>
>>>Do you think "the God of Jacob... created the heavens and
>>>the earth, and all things that in them are"?
>>
>> Yes, and yes.
>
>
>
> Guy may or may not personally believe that god doesn't change, but
> prophets of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints have
> taught that god does change. In fact, it's a core part of LDS
> doctrine called "eternal progression." Mormon prophets have even
> taught that god the father was once a mortal man who lived on another
> planet, and so on and so forth.
Indeed, and here is what the LDS Church leaders have consistently taught
as doctrine:
"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits
enthroned in yonder heavens. That is the great secret... It is the first
principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God and
> Mormonism is a fractured, inconsistent, and sloppily built religion
The Poster Formerly Known as Craig Olson
Do you know the source this quoted material? Hint: It is not Doctrine
and Covenants sections 2 and 5.
<snip>
> Matthew 16 (King James Version)
> http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew%2016;&version=9;
> 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed
> art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath
> not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in
> heaven.
> 18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter,
> and upon this rock I will build my church; and the
> gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
On a tangential note - am I the only one that thinks most people wrest
this scripture completely out of context? The image that I have from
verse 18 is of the gates of hell attempting to protect hell from the
effects described in verse 17 (I'll leave to other sectarians to decide
how they want to define what those effects are).
Verse 18 says that the power of God (or whatever, from v 17) will
overcome the gates of hell - that, in the end, they shall not prevail.
This is, essentially, what John describes in Rev. 20:13 "...and death
and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged
every man according to their works."
I tire of people tying to make the point that the gates of hell were
going to somehow march out on to the battlefield and attempt to overcome
Peter, the church, revelation (or whatever). Gates just don't do that.
The image I see is exactly the opposite of what seems so often to be the
interpretation given to these verses.
Craig
Just James
<snip>
>> Do you think there is more than one God?
>>
> Ontologically? Yes. God the Father and God the Son, as examples.
> Do I believe there is more than one God in terms of mind and purpose
> (as described in John 17, above)? No. In the collective LdS opinion,
> neither did Alma.
<snip>
> bestRegards, Guy.
So, God is a Borg? I knew Star Trek had the answer to all questions. :-)
--
Just James
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know
peace."
- Jimi Hendrix
John Manning
The document "Lectures on Faith" is a set of seven lectures on the
doctrine and theology of the Latter Day Saint movement, first published
as the "doctrine" portion of the 1835 edition of the canonical Doctrine
and Covenants, but later removed from that work by both major branches
of the faith. It was presented by Joseph Smith, Jr. to a group of elders
in a course known as the "School of the Prophets" in the early winter of
1834-35 in Kirtland, Ohio...
For instance, in Lecture 5, paragraph 2, it defines the Father as a
"personage of spirit, glory and power."
Whereas in section 130 of the Doctrine and Covenants, verse 22 states
that "the Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's." In
addition, the Father and Son are said to possess the same mind, "which
mind is the Holy Spirit" (Lecture 5, paragraph 2).
The Holy Spirit is not a personage, as defined at the beginning of
paragraph 2: "There are two personages who constitute the great,
matchless, governing and supreme power over all things...They are the
Father and Son."
This could cause confusion when compared with Section 130 of the
Doctrine and Covenants "The Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and
bones, but is a personage of Spirit." Section 130 of the Doctrine and
Covenants was added in the 1876 edition and hence co-existed with the
Lectures on Faith.
Despite the Lectures' removal from the volume of scripture, the Lectures
remain an important doctrinal work in most Latter Day Saint
denominations. One theologian in the LDS Church has praised the Lectures
as follows:
"In my judgment, it is the most comprehensive, inspired utterance
that now exists in the English language - that exists in one place
defining, interpreting, expounding, announcing, and testifying what kind
of being God is. It was written by the power of the Holy Ghost, by the
spirit of inspiration. It is, in effect, eternal scripture; it is true."
~~ (Bruce R. McConkie, lecture at Brigham Young University).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lectures_on_Faith
[snip to end]
I AM
> The Poster Formerly Known as Craig Olson wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > [Newsgoups trimmed]
>
> > dfo...@gl.umbc.edu wrote:
>
> >> Apparently copies of the D&C published starting in 1921 left out some
> >> embarrassing material.
> >> Below is 1857 D&C material that you might not have seen before.
>
> >> Richards, Franklin D., ed. 1857. _A Compendium of the Faith and
> >> Doctrines of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.:
> >> Compiled from the Bible; and also from the Book of Mormon, Doctrine
> >> and Covenants, and Other Publications of the Church._ (Liverpool and
> >> London: published by Orson Pratt and L.D.S. Book Depot), 243pp.
> >> Richards was "one of the twelve apostles of said church." A pic of
> >> what's below is at
Again open up your bible troll:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is
a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. (1_Cor. 15:40-43.)
The "spiritual body" to which Paul refers is the resurrected physical
body which has been glorified.
>
> Whereas in section 130 of the Doctrine and Covenants, verse 22 states
> that "the Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's." In
> addition, the Father and Son are said to possess the same mind, "which
> mind is the Holy Spirit" (Lecture 5, paragraph 2).
>
> The Holy Spirit is not a personage, as defined at the beginning of
> paragraph 2: "There are two personages who constitute the great,
> matchless, governing and supreme power over all things...They are the
> Father and Son."
>
> This could cause confusion when compared with Section 130 of the
> Doctrine and Covenants "The Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and
> bones, but is a personage of Spirit." Section 130 of the Doctrine and
> Covenants was added in the 1876 edition and hence co-existed with the
> Lectures on Faith.
>
> Despite the Lectures' removal from the volume of scripture, the Lectures
> remain an important doctrinal work in most Latter Day Saint
> denominations. One theologian in the LDS Church has praised the Lectures
> as follows:
>
> "In my judgment, it is the most comprehensive, inspired utterance
> that now exists in the English language - that exists in one place
> defining, interpreting, expounding, announcing, and testifying what kind
> of being God is. It was written by the power of the Holy Ghost, by the
> spirit of inspiration. It is, in effect, eternal scripture; it is true."
>
> ~~ (Bruce R. McConkie, lecture at Brigham Young University).
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lectures_on_Faith
>
> [snip to end]- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Bret Ripley
Olson wrote:
> On a tangential note - am I the only one that thinks most people wrest
> this scripture completely out of context? The image that I have from
> verse 18 is of the gates of hell attempting to protect hell from the
> effects described in verse 17 (I'll leave to other sectarians to decide
> how they want to define what those effects are).
>
> Verse 18 says that the power of God (or whatever, from v 17) will
> overcome the gates of hell - that, in the end, they shall not prevail.
> This is, essentially, what John describes in Rev. 20:13 "...and death
> and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged
> every man according to their works."
>
> I tire of people tying to make the point that the gates of hell were
> going to somehow march out on to the battlefield and attempt to overcome
> Peter, the church, revelation (or whatever). Gates just don't do that.
> The image I see is exactly the opposite of what seems so often to be the
> interpretation given to these verses.
It is very common to perceive the church as on the defensive, divinely
protected from the power of hell -- but that's not at all what is meant
here. My father is a preacher, and I remember him addressing this very
topic in a sermon. At one point he did this quite amusing impression of
gates absurdly marching around on a battlefield.
You're absolutely correct, of course: the imagery meant to be invoked is of
the church on the offensive, assailing the gates of hell.
Bret
I AM
>
> - Show quoted text -
Do you honestly think there are literal gates in hell?
Guy R. Briggs
> net...@GeoCities.com (Guy R. Briggs) wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>>> Do you think that "God is the same yesterday, today, and
>>> forever"?
>>>
>>> Do you think "the God of Jacob... created the heavens and
>>> the earth, and all things that in them are"?
>>
>> Yes, and yes.
>
> Guy may or may not personally believe that god doesn't
> change, but prophets of the Church of Jesus Christ of
> Latter-day Saints have taught that god does change.
>
up of beings who progressed intelligence --> spirit --> mortal -->
resurrected being --> exalted being, and further posit that the purpose
of said council is (and always has been) "the exaltation and eternal
life" of the species, then we can say with confidence that God doesn't
change.
God has (1) always existed, (2) is made up of exalted beings, who (3)
are the product of eternal progression, and (4) have the same purpose.
There is no change in any of these aspects of God.
bestRegards, Guy (taking the eternal view)
I AM
>
> - Show quoted text -
See, you people need revelation from god to determine what is
literal and what to be taken symbolically, this is why you
have thousands of christian denominations.
I told you what brings unity of the faith, apostles.
Where are yours?
The Poster Formerly Known as Craig Olson
> Guy R. Briggs wrote:
> <snip>
>
>>> Do you think there is more than one God?
>>>
>> Ontologically? Yes. God the Father and God the Son, as examples.
>> Do I believe there is more than one God in terms of mind and purpose
>> (as described in John 17, above)? No. In the collective LdS opinion,
>> neither did Alma.
>
> <snip>
>
>> bestRegards, Guy.
>
> So, God is a Borg? I knew Star Trek had the answer to all questions. :-)
Resistance is futile. All will be assimilated.
Duwaynea Anderson
> DuwayneAnder...@gmail.com (Duwaynea Anderson) wrote:
> > netz...@GeoCities.com (Guy R. Briggs) wrote:
>
> > <snip>
>
> >>> Do you think that "God is the same yesterday, today, and
> >>> forever"?
>
> >>> Do you think "the God of Jacob... created the heavens and
> >>> the earth, and all things that in them are"?
>
> >> Yes, and yes.
>
> > Guy may or may not personally believe that god doesn't
> > change, but prophets of the Church of Jesus Christ of
> > Latter-day Saints have taught that god does change.
>
> If we posit (as have many LdS leaders) that "God" is a council
Posit all you want ... as long as it's clear you are preaching from
the book of Guy R. Briggs.
Mormon leaders taught that god was a man (singular) who was once
mortal and lived on a planet like earth.
Yes, I know you find the doctrine embarrassing. Yes, I know you wish
the prophets hadn't said it. But they did, and you're just going to
have to live with the fact that your prophets haven't been consistent
on god -- illustrating that they really don't know him (positing that
he exists, of course).
<snip remaining personal opinion>
dfo...@gl.umbc.edu
testimony."
Could you please provide details about that work?
Do you think the Holy Spirit consists of:
bird parts?
dove parts?
flesh and blood and bones?
spirit?
Luke 3 (King James Version)
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%203;&version=9;
21 Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus
also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened,
22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon
him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved
Son; in thee I am well pleased.
John 1 (King James Version)
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john;&version=9;
32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from
heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the
same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and
remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.
=================================
Do you think God the Father consists of:
fire?
burning wood?
water vapor?
cloud?
pillar of cloud?
flesh and blood and bones?
spirit?
Exodus 3 (King James Version)
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=exodus%203;&version=9;
1 Now Moses kept the flock of Jethro his father in law, the priest of
Midian: and he led the flock to the backside of the desert, and came
to the mountain of God, even to Horeb.
2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out
of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned
with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why
the bush is not burnt.
4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto
him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said,
Here am I.
5 And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy
feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.
6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham,
the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he
was afraid to look upon God.
Exodus 34 (King James Version)
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=exodus%2034;&version=9;
4 And he hewed two tables of stone like unto the first; and Moses rose
up early in the morning, and went up unto mount Sinai, as the LORD had
commanded him, and took in his hand the two tables of stone.
5 And the LORD descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and
proclaimed the name of the LORD.
6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The
LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in
goodness and truth,
God: Incorporeal & Invisible
http://home.flash.net/~thinkman/articles/invis.htm
The Poster Formerly Known as Craig Olson
> On Wed, 21 May 2008 13:11:45 -0400, The Poster Formerly Known as Craig
> Olson wrote:
>
>> On a tangential note - am I the only one that thinks most people wrest
>> this scripture completely out of context? The image that I have from
>> verse 18 is of the gates of hell attempting to protect hell from the
>> effects described in verse 17 (I'll leave to other sectarians to decide
>> how they want to define what those effects are).
>>
>> Verse 18 says that the power of God (or whatever, from v 17) will
>> overcome the gates of hell - that, in the end, they shall not prevail.
>> This is, essentially, what John describes in Rev. 20:13 "...and death
>> and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged
>> every man according to their works."
>>
>> I tire of people tying to make the point that the gates of hell were
>> going to somehow march out on to the battlefield and attempt to overcome
>> Peter, the church, revelation (or whatever). Gates just don't do that.
>> The image I see is exactly the opposite of what seems so often to be the
>> interpretation given to these verses.
>
> It is very common to perceive the church as on the defensive, divinely
> protected from the power of hell -- but that's not at all what is meant
> here. My father is a preacher, and I remember him addressing this very
> topic in a sermon.
Dusty Springfield sang a song about you, as I recall.
> At one point he did this quite amusing impression of
> gates absurdly marching around on a battlefield.
Cool. I would have loved to be there.
> You're absolutely correct, of course: the imagery meant to be invoked is of
> the church on the offensive, assailing the gates of hell.
I can only agree.
Craig
Guy R. Briggs
>>> net...@GeoCities.com wrote:
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>>>> Do you think that "God is the same yesterday, today, and
>>>>> forever"?
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you think "the God of Jacob... created the heavens and
>>>>> the earth, and all things that in them are"?
>>>>
>>>> Yes, and yes.
>>>
>>> Guy may or may not personally believe that god doesn't
>>> change, but prophets of the Church of Jesus Christ of
>>> Latter-day Saints have taught that god does change.
>>
>> If we posit (as have many LdS leaders) that "God" is a council
>
> Posit all you want ... as long as it's clear you are
> preaching from the book of Guy R. Briggs.
>
and true God. And you have got to learn how to be
Gods yourselves - to be kings and priests to God,
the same as all Gods have done - by going from a
small degree to another, from grace to grace, from
exaltation to exaltation, until you are able to sit
in glory as do those who sit enthroned in
everlasting power."
-- Joseph Smith, King Follett Discourse
Notice the plurals: to "know the only wise and true God" one must
"learn to be Gods ... as ALL Gods have done," blah, blah, blah, and "sit
in glory as do THOSE who are enthroned."
The "one true and wise God" is a council.
>
> Mormon leaders taught that god was a man (singular) who was
> once mortal and lived on a planet like earth.
>
You are confusing God the individual (who we reference by the exalted
name-title "Elohim") with God the eternal heavenly council.
>
> Yes, I know you find the doctrine embarrassing.
>
I'm not embarrassed by it in the slightest.
>
> Yes, I know you wish the prophets hadn't said it.
>
I'm very happy they said it. I wish they had elaborated, so that we
didn't have to posit so much.
bestRegards, Guy.
Duwaynea Anderson
> DuwayneAnder...@gmail.com (Duwaynea Anderson) wrote:
> > netz...@GeoCities.com (Guy R. Briggs) wrote:
> >>> netz...@GeoCities.com wrote:
>
> >>> <snip>
>
> >>>>> Do you think that "God is the same yesterday, today, and
> >>>>> forever"?
>
> >>>>> Do you think "the God of Jacob... created the heavens and
> >>>>> the earth, and all things that in them are"?
>
> >>>> Yes, and yes.
>
> >>> Guy may or may not personally believe that god doesn't
> >>> change, but prophets of the Church of Jesus Christ of
> >>> Latter-day Saints have taught that god does change.
>
> >> If we posit (as have many LdS leaders) that "God" is a council
>
> > Posit all you want ... as long as it's clear you are
> > preaching from the book of Guy R. Briggs.
>
> "Here, then, is eternal life - to know the only wise
> and true God. And you have got to learn how to be
> Gods yourselves - to be kings and priests to God,
> the same as all Gods have done - by going from a
> small degree to another, from grace to grace, from
> exaltation to exaltation, until you are able to sit
> in glory as do those who sit enthroned in
> everlasting power."
> -- Joseph Smith, King Follett Discourse
>
> Notice the plurals:
Yes, we all know about polytheism in Mormonism. But multiple gods
(plural) doesn't equate to "God = committee."
Where does it talk about God=committee? How does "you have got to
learn how to be Gods yourselves" even work in that context?
Are you trying to be a committee, Guy?
<snip to end>
Bret Ripley
Olson wrote:
> Bret Ripley wrote:
>> On Wed, 21 May 2008 13:11:45 -0400, The Poster Formerly Known as Craig
>> Olson wrote:
>>
>>> On a tangential note - am I the only one that thinks most people wrest
>>> this scripture completely out of context? The image that I have from
>>> verse 18 is of the gates of hell attempting to protect hell from the
>>> effects described in verse 17 (I'll leave to other sectarians to decide
>>> how they want to define what those effects are).
>>>
>>> Verse 18 says that the power of God (or whatever, from v 17) will
>>> overcome the gates of hell - that, in the end, they shall not prevail.
>>> This is, essentially, what John describes in Rev. 20:13 "...and death
>>> and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged
>>> every man according to their works."
>>>
>>> I tire of people tying to make the point that the gates of hell were
>>> going to somehow march out on to the battlefield and attempt to overcome
>>> Peter, the church, revelation (or whatever). Gates just don't do that.
>>> The image I see is exactly the opposite of what seems so often to be the
>>> interpretation given to these verses.
>>
>> It is very common to perceive the church as on the defensive, divinely
>> protected from the power of hell -- but that's not at all what is meant
>> here. My father is a preacher, and I remember him addressing this very
>> topic in a sermon.
>
> Dusty Springfield sang a song about you, as I recall.
<Sigh> If only my parents had named me "Billy".
>> At one point he did this quite amusing impression of
>> gates absurdly marching around on a battlefield.
>
> Cool. I would have loved to be there.
Dad used to get pretty animated when he preached -- I guess he probably
still does. If the preaching thing hadn't worked out, he could have done
stand-up.
>> You're absolutely correct, of course: the imagery meant to be invoked is of
>> the church on the offensive, assailing the gates of hell.
>
> I can only agree.
Wait-a-sec -- I agree with you, and you agree with me agreeing with you?
That can't be right -- after all, we're on opposite sides of this "aisle"
Guy and others are always talking about. Anyway, it must violate some
Usenet rule or other. I'll have to look it up in the ARM FAQ.
Bret
Guy R. Briggs
> net...@GeoCities.com (Guy R. Briggs) wrote:
<snip>
>>>> If we posit (as have many LdS leaders) that "God" is a council
>>>
>>> Posit all you want ... as long as it's clear you are
>>> preaching from the book of Guy R. Briggs.
>>
>> "Here, then, is eternal life - to know the only wise
>> and true God. And you have got to learn how to be
>> Gods yourselves - to be kings and priests to God,
>> the same as all Gods have done - by going from a
>> small degree to another, from grace to grace, from
>> exaltation to exaltation, until you are able to sit
>> in glory as do those who sit enthroned in
>> everlasting power."
>> -- Joseph Smith, King Follett Discourse
>>
>> Notice the plurals:
>
> Yes, we all know about polytheism in Mormonism. But
> multiple gods (plural) doesn't equate to "God = committee."
>
The Council is also called God. God seems to also be the collective
noun for God.
To be technically accurate, the name-title "Elohim" is nothing more
than the Hebrew "El" (God) + "hiym" (plural ending), and is frequently
rendered that way - as in Genesis 3:5 "For God (Elohim) doth know that
in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall
be as gods (Elohim), knowing good and evil.
"I shall comment on the very first Hebrew word in the
Bible; I will make a comment on the very first
sentence of the history of creation in the Bible -
Berosheit. I want to analyze the word. Baith - in,
by, through, and everything else. Rosh - the head,
Sheit - grammatical termination. When the inspired
man wrote it, he did not put the baith there. An old
Jew without any authority added the word; he thought
it too bad to begin to talk about the head! It read
first, 'The head one of the Gods brought forth the
Gods.' That is the true meaning of the words. Baurau
signifies to bring forth. If you do not believe it,
you do not believe the learned man of God. Learned
men can teach you no more than what I have told you.
Thus the head God brought forth the Gods in the
grand council.
"I will transpose and simplify it in the English
language. <rant snipped> The head God called
together the Gods and sat in grand council to bring
forth the world. The grand councilors sat at the
head in yonder heavens and contemplated the creation
of the worlds which were created at the time."
-- KFD, continued
>
> Where does it talk about God=committee? How does "you have
> got to learn how to be Gods yourselves" even work in that
> context?
>
If only Gods sit on the council, one would have to become a God to do
so, no? This ain't rocket science.
>
> Are you trying to be a committee, Guy?
>
I ain't trying to do anything but endure to the end. We'll see how it
works out after that.
Perhaps the committee will let me be the Executive Secretary? :0)
bestRegards, Guy.
Duwaynea Anderson
<snip>
> > Yes, we all know about polytheism in Mormonism. But
> > multiple gods (plural) doesn't equate to "God = committee."
>
> The Council is also called God.
Where? Where do Mormon prophets say God=Council?
> God seems to also be the collective
> noun for God.
Whether or not the word "god" has multiple meanings isn't the issue.
The fact is Mormon prophets taught that the common vernacular "God" is
an individual, a man with a physical body, a man who was once mortal
on another world, and who had a father.
It's simply dishonest to pretend that when Mormon leaders talk about
"God the Father" they really mean some committee somewhere. They
absolutely did not mean that. Mormonism literally teaches that god is
changeable, even to the extent that he was once a mortal man.
So when you replied "yes" in response to a question about god being
unchangeable you are quoting from the book of Guy R. Briggs, not
Mormonism. Mormonism teaches that god *is* changeable.
"Here, then, is eternal life - to know the only wise and true God.
And you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves - to be kings and
priests to God, the same as all Gods have done - by going from a small
degree to another, from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation,
until you are able to sit in glory as do those who sit enthroned in
everlasting power."
-- Joseph Smith, King Follett Discourse
Note that key phrase, Guy: "the same as all the Gods have done"
Got that? *All* the gods have done what Joseph Smith is telling
Mormons to do -- namely to go from mortality to being "Gods
yourselves."
I know you don't like the doctrine, but the fact that Mormons
misrepresent the doctrine is telling, as it shows that, deep down, you
understand that Mormonism is a fraud.
Just James
Is the KFD cannon? Why not JoD?
Just James
Seems that way sometimes. Perhaps that is what the creators of that
society had in mind.
The Poster Formerly Known as Craig Olson
> The Poster Formerly Known as Craig Olson wrote:
>> Just James wrote:
>>> Guy R. Briggs wrote:
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>>>> Do you think there is more than one God?
>>>>>
>>>> Ontologically? Yes. God the Father and God the Son, as examples.
>>>> Do I believe there is more than one God in terms of mind and purpose
>>>> (as described in John 17, above)? No. In the collective LdS opinion,
>>>> neither did Alma.
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>>> bestRegards, Guy.
>>>
>>> So, God is a Borg? I knew Star Trek had the answer to all questions. :-)
>>
>> Resistance is futile. All will be assimilated.
>
> Seems that way sometimes. Perhaps that is what the creators of that
> society had in mind.
Romans 14:11 "For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee
shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God."
Seems like Paul was thinking all will be assimilated.
Or, perhaps, all your base are belong to us.
Craig
Duwaynea Anderson
In the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, *everything*
spoken by the prophets is scripture (cannon) unless they are speaking
without the holy ghost.
Of course, if they are preaching without the holy ghost that obviously
begs the question "where is the holy ghost?" According to LDS
scripture, Mormons who are confirmed have the gift of the holy ghost
and the promise that he will be with them all the time -- unless they
are not worthy. And if a prophet is not worthy of the holy ghost, how
can he be worthy to be a prophet?
Bottom line: Mormons who try to dismiss teachings of the prophets as
just opinion are at odds with LDS scripture. But what to do? Mormon
prophets have said so many blitheringly stupid and hateful things;
what is a Mormon apologist to do if they have to deal with each of
those statements as scripture?
Vagabond
> In the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, *everything*
> spoken by the prophets is scripture (cannon) unless they are speaking
> without the holy ghost.
> Bottom line: Mormons who try to dismiss teachings of the prophets as
> just opinion are at odds with LDS scripture. But what to do? Mormon
> prophets have said so many blitheringly stupid and hateful things;
> what is a Mormon apologist to do if they have to deal with each of
> those statements as scripture?
>
Absolutely false. When a new prophet becomes the prophet, does
everything he ever said suddenly become "doctrine?" The only official
doctrine that comes forth from the prophet's mouth are those
statements that are then ratified by the church as doctrine. You have
shown a great knowledge of Mormon beliefs, but you totally missed this
one (conveniently). There is a LINE drawn that tells a member what is
really doctrine and what is not. That line is official declarations
from the church by the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve
Apostles. Even then, these statements are not really doctrine until
they are ratified by the entire church by a vote of approval. This is
how the book, "Jesus the Christ" was stopped from becoming official
cannon. It failed the final test, ratification by the church.
If new plates were found or another record discovered of another lost
tribe of Israel, then it would go through the same process to become
canonized.
Does this mean that what the prophets say is not true when they are
inspired? Maybe and maybe not. Official doctrine of the church is
not very large and is not contained in the lost discourses volume 430
or in what some "Elder" of the church somewhere in Albania said once
upon a time to Joe Shmoe. Much of that is opinion and speculation,
that is why it is not taught as doctrine in the Gospel Principles. So
PLEEEASE stop using this terrible rationalization to tell Mormons what
they believe.
The Poster Formerly Known as Craig Olson
Correct. The portions quoted by F.D. Richards (from a booklet he
compiled as a missionary aid, BTW) were from "Lecture the Second" and
"Lecture the Fifth".
> It was presented by Joseph Smith, Jr. to a group of elders
> in a course known as the "School of the Prophets" in the early winter of
> 1834-35 in Kirtland, Ohio...
"Presented by" Joseph Smith but almost certainly authored by Sidney Rigdon.
<snip to end>
Craig
dfo...@gl.umbc.edu
with someone who can help you."
Would that individual say that God the Father is invisible?
1 Timothy 1 (KJV)
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20timothy%201;&version=9;
17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God,
be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Colossians 1 (KJV)
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=collosians;&version=9;
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness
of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every
creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that
are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or
dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by
him, and for him:
John 1 (KJV)
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john;&version=9;
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the
Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made
that was made.
==
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world
knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the
sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of
the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his
glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace
and truth.
=============================
Do you think "the Word" referred to above:
refers to Jesus?
is a created being?
was involved in the creating of all that has been made?
John 1 (KJV)
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john;&version=9;
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the
Word was God.
.... 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us....
Compare
Philippians 2 (KJV)
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Philippians%202;&version=9;
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal
with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a
servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became
obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Duwaynea Anderson
> > In the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, *everything*
> > spoken by the prophets is scripture (cannon) unless they are speaking
> > without the holy ghost.
> > Bottom line: Mormons who try to dismiss teachings of the prophets as
> > just opinion are at odds with LDS scripture. But what to do? Mormon
> > prophets have said so many blitheringly stupid and hateful things;
> > what is a Mormon apologist to do if they have to deal with each of
> > those statements as scripture?
>
> Absolutely false.
Really? Which parts:
1) The prophet, as a baptized member of the church, has the gift of
the holy ghost, and the promise that the holy ghost will be his
constant companion as long as he lives worthy.
Do you deny the gift of the holy ghost? Is it false? Or, could you
mean this part:
2) D&C 68:3-4 "And whatsoever they shall speak when moved upon by the
holy ghost shall be scripture...." [ http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/68/3-4#3]
Do you deny the truthfulness of D&C 68: 3-4? Was god lying when he
supposedly said those words to Smith?
> When a new prophet becomes the prophet, does
> everything he ever said suddenly become "doctrine?"
If #1 is true and #2 is true, then yes. If either #1 or #2 is not
true, then no.
Since you disagree with the conclusion you must think that #1 is false
or #2 is false. So, which is it? Which one do you deny?
> The only official
> doctrine that comes forth from the prophet's mouth are those
> statements that are then ratified by the church as doctrine.
The church has never voted to sustain your statement. You just made
that up. You are just preaching your personal opinion.
So which do you think is false? #1 or #2?
<snip>
> There is a LINE drawn that tells a member what is
> really doctrine and what is not.
Really? Let's test your assertion. I'd like you to use this "line"
to tell us if the facsimiles in the Book of Abraham are scripture.
Please answer this simple question: "Are the facsimiles in the Book
of Abraham scripture?"
> That line is official declarations
> from the church by the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve
> Apostles.
Are you suggesting that god lied in D&C 68:3-4, when he said "And
whatsoever they shall speak when moved upon by the holy ghost shall be
scripture...." [ http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/68/3-4#3] ?
> Even then, these statements are not really doctrine until
> they are ratified by the entire church by a vote of approval.
There is no scripture that says that, and the church has never voted
to sustain your statement. You just made that up.
> This is
> how the book, "Jesus the Christ" was stopped from becoming official
> cannon. It failed the final test, ratification by the church.
So, apparently, you really do think that god lied in D&C 68:3-4, when
he said "And whatsoever they shall speak when moved upon by the holy
ghost shall be scripture...." [ http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/68/3-4#3]
Or, are you simply suggesting that LDS prophets sin so profusely that
they don't have the holy ghost with them?
<snip remainder of personal opinion>
Guy R. Briggs
> net...@GeoCities.com (Guy R. Briggs) wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>>> Yes, we all know about polytheism in Mormonism. But
>>> multiple gods (plural) doesn't equate to "God = committee."
>>
>> The Council is also called God.
>
> Where? Where do Mormon prophets say God=Council?
>
translation of the 1st verse of the Bible - "In the beginning, God created
..."
>>
>> God seems to also be the collective noun for God.
>
> Whether or not the word "god" has multiple meanings isn't
> the issue.
>
It's part and parcel of the issue. When Mormon prophets speak or write,
they use words. What they meant by those words is the very essence of these
debates.
Unless, of course, your name is Duwayne Anderson, and you've already
decided the exact and precise meaning of each and every word they uttered -
and if anybody has the temerity to actually disagree with your settled
opinion is lying. Right?
>
> The fact is Mormon prophets taught that the common vernacular
> "God" is an individual, a man with a physical body, a man who
> was once mortal on another world, and who had a father.
And, by inference, so did every member of the council. That's why all
the council members are also called Gods, by Smith. It also takes you right
off the ranch WRT any "common vernacular" for the word "God."
>
> It's simply dishonest to pretend that when Mormon leaders
> talk about "God the Father" they really mean some committee
> somewhere.
>
Whether they were talking about an individual or a committee is entirely
dependant on the context. Smith was certainly a Mormon leader - part of the
KFD deals with an individual, part deals with the Grand Council. Your one-
size-fits-all interpretation ain't makin' it.
<snip>
> "Here, then, is eternal life - to know the only wise and
> true God. And you have got to learn how to be Gods
> yourselves - to be kings and priests to God, the same as
> all Gods have done - by going from a small degree to
> another, from grace to grace, from exaltation to
> exaltation, until you are able to sit in glory as do those
> who sit enthroned in everlasting power."
> -- Joseph Smith, King Follett Discourse
>
> Note that key phrase, Guy: "the same as all the Gods have done"
>
Same paragraph I posted yesterday, asking you to look for the plurals.
In this same paragraph (the whole thing, not just this snippet), he
shows evidence from the New Testament that Christ did the same things he
saw his Father in Heaven do. So in this and the other snippets from the KFD
we have looked at, we see several definitions for God:
1) God, the Son, doing exactly what he saw his Father do
2) God, the Father, who was once a mortal.
3) Gods, in embryo - Mormons who "have got to learn to be
Gods" our ownselves.
4) God, the council, called together when the earth was
planned, the same council where those in #3 who "learn
how" will "sit in glory" with "those who sit enthroned"
currently.
And the common thread of all four is the idea of progression:
Intelligence --> spirit --> mortal --> resurrected --> exalted. Does God
change? Nope, the process is the same for God the Son, God the Father,
those learning to be God, and all who have completed the process.
>
> Got that? *All* the gods have done what Joseph Smith is
> telling Mormons to do -- namely to go from mortality to
> being "Gods yourselves."
>
Same process, eternally. Doesn't change.
Does the species Danaus plexippus (Monarh flutterby) change? No, it's
been doing the same thing for thousands of years. Does the Monarch
butterfly, the single example outside my window change? Yes, it went
through all the stages (caterpillar, chrysalis, adult, etc.)
Does God change? If you take the eternal view (as I specifically stated
I was doing) and are speaking of ALL of the members, then no, God does not
change. OTOH, if you look at a single example - LdS leaders speaking
specifically of God the Father, then yes, he goes through the process from
start to finish.
>
> I know you don't like the doctrine, ...
>
You're as wrong now as the lasat time you posted the same thing. I like
the doctrine a lot. Wish our leaders had said more, so we wouldn't have to
do so much positing.
>
> ... but the fact that Mormons misrepresent the doctrine ...
>
The fact that we look at the entire picture, in contrast to you,
focusing myopically on one little aspect, does not mean we are
misrepresenting anything.
Just the opposite, in fact.
Each one of your shrill, myopic tirades convinces me, more and more,
that /you/ sir, are the one intent on misrepresentation.
>
> ... is telling, as it shows that, deep down, you understand
> that Mormonism is a fraud.
>
Keep telling youself that, Duwayne. Perhaps you'll actually believe it
some day.
bestRegards, Guy.
Duwaynea Anderson
<snip>
> > Where? Where do Mormon prophets say God=Council?
>
> "Thus the head God brought forth the Gods in the grand council" as
> translation of the 1st verse of the Bible - "In the beginning, God created
> ..."
That says a committee consists of gods, not that the word "god" should
be read as "committee."
You wouldn't interpret "person" as committee, would you?
<snip personal insults>
> > The fact is Mormon prophets taught that the common vernacular
> > "God" is an individual, a man with a physical body, a man who
> > was once mortal on another world, and who had a father.
>
> And, by inference, so did every member of the council.
Okay, time to backup the radish truck. You started with the "council"
thing when it became clear that the LDS god changes. You tried to get
around the "change" problem by suggesting that while individual gods
might change, the god committee doesn’t change It's just the
committee that remains changeless, not the gods on the committee.
It's a rediculous explanation that's not taught by the LDS Church --
you just made it up.
<snip>
> > It's simply dishonest to pretend that when Mormon leaders
> > talk about "God the Father" they really mean some committee
> > somewhere.
>
> Whether they were talking about an individual or a committee is entirely
> dependant on the context.
This is where dishonesty enters in. When non-Mormons talk about a
"changeless" god they are not talking about a committee.
YOU said you believe that god is changeless. That's fine. You're
entitled to your personal opinion. But Mormonism does *not* teach
that "god" is changeless. They teach that god is progressing
according to the plan of eternal progression, that he was once a
mortal man living on another planet.
When you speak as a Mormon for the Mormon faith and say that “god” is
changeless you are misrepresenting Mormonism – particularly when you
make that statement to a traditional Christian who asks the question.
If the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS or Mormon) is
true, why would you need to misrepresent it?
<snip.
> > "Here, then, is eternal life - to know the only wise and
> > true God. And you have got to learn how to be Gods
> > yourselves - to be kings and priests to God, the same as
> > all Gods have done - by going from a small degree to
> > another, from grace to grace, from exaltation to
> > exaltation, until you are able to sit in glory as do those
> > who sit enthroned in everlasting power."
> > -- Joseph Smith, King Follett Discourse
>
> > Note that key phrase, Guy: "the same as all the Gods have done"
>
> Same paragraph I posted yesterday, asking you to look for the plurals.
>
> In this same paragraph (the whole thing, not just this snippet), he
> shows evidence from the New Testament that Christ did the same things he
> saw his Father in Heaven do.
Okay, you're missing the point. The citation you posted from Smith's
King Follett Discourse doesn’t support your suggestion that when
Mormons speak the word "god" they are talking about a committee and
not an individual.
The King Follett Discourse is about how individual people become
individual gods.
That's a perfect example of the changeable god that is at the core of
LDS theology. It's simply not true -- it's a lie -- to say that the
god of Mormonism is unchangeable. Sometimes he's described that way,
and sometimes not. The Mormon god is a mishmash of inconsistent and
contradictory theology that’s an embarrassment to any thinking person.
Guy R. Briggs
> net...@GeoCities.com (Guy R. Briggs) wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>>> Where? Where do Mormon prophets say God=Council?
>>
>> "Thus the head God brought forth the Gods in the grand
>> council" as translation of the 1st verse of the Bible -
>> "In the beginning, God created ..."
>
> That says a committee consists of gods, not that the word
> "god" should be read as "committee."
>
> You wouldn't interpret "person" as committee, would you?
>
the Bible, "God" talks about a Council of Gods being convened.
>
> <snip personal insults>
>
If the shoe fits ...
>>>
>>> The fact is Mormon prophets taught that the common vernacular
>>> "God" is an individual, a man with a physical body, a man who
>>> was once mortal on another world, and who had a father.
>>
>> And, by inference, so did every member of the council.
>
> Okay, time to backup the radish truck. You started with
> the "council" thing when it became clear ...
>
I started with the council thing, period.
<snip>
>>> It's simply dishonest to pretend that when Mormon leaders
>>> talk about "God the Father" they really mean some
>>> committee somewhere.
>>
>> Whether they were talking about an individual or a
>> committee is entirely dependant on the context.
>
> This is where dishonesty enters in. When non-Mormons talk
> about a "changeless" god they are not talking about a
> committee.
>
But Mormons, who can see it either way, must specify.
And so I indicated in the very beginning that I believed that God
didn't change, but probably not the same way that the OP did. I clearly
indicated that I was taking the eternal view. I specifically stated that
I was "positing" God as a council.
And even after all those disclaimers, you had to jump in with your
signature claim that I was lying.
>
> YOU said you believe that god is changeless.
>
And went so far as to explain WHY we believe that way and that it
differs from the mainstream concept. Imagine that - complete
disclosure!
>
> That's fine. You're entitled to your personal opinion.
>
Yes I am. I'm also entitled to explain how Mormons address the
"changeless God" passages of scripture.
>
> But Mormonism does *not* teach that "god" is changeless.
>
It most certainly does. All of those God-does-not-change scriptures
are in OUR scriptures, too.
>
> They teach that god is progressing according to the plan of
> eternal progression, that he was once a mortal man living
> on another planet.
>
When speaking one one /specific/ God, the one we worship and pray to,
that is completely correct. Yet, we still must expound on the God-does-
not-change passages of scripture.
>
> When you speak as a Mormon for the Mormon faith and say that
> “god” is changeless you are misrepresenting Mormonism – ...
>
I'm the guy trying to /explain/ Mormonism.
>
> ... particularly when you make that statement to a
> traditional Christian who asks the question.
>
Which is why I made all the disclaimers. You're the one who is
insisting that I must bend the Mormon definition to match the mainstream
Christian one.
>
> If the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS or
> Mormon) is true, why would you need to misrepresent it?
>
The only one doing any misrepresentin' is you.
>
> <snip.
>
>>> "Here, then, is eternal life - to know the only wise and
>>> true God. And you have got to learn how to be Gods
>>> yourselves - to be kings and priests to God, the same as
>>> all Gods have done - by going from a small degree to
>>> another, from grace to grace, from exaltation to
>>> exaltation, until you are able to sit in glory as do
>>> those who sit enthroned in everlasting power."
>>> -- Joseph Smith, King Follett Discourse
>>>
>>> Note that key phrase, Guy: "the same as all the Gods have
>>> done"
>>
>> Same paragraph I posted yesterday, asking you to look for
>> the plurals.
>>
>> In this same paragraph (the whole thing, not just this
>> snippet), he shows evidence from the New Testament that
>> Christ did the same things he saw his Father in Heaven do.
>
> Okay, you're missing the point.
>
One of us is, anyway. The one of us that isn't me.
>
> The citation you posted from Smith's King Follett Discourse
> doesn’t support your suggestion that when Mormons speak the
> word "god" they are talking about a committee and not an
> individual.
>
Which is why I made my disclaimers. So that the non-Mormon would
understand what I was talking about.
>
> The King Follett Discourse is about how individual people
> become individual gods.
>
It is so-o-o-o much more than that!
<snip>
bestRegards, Guy.
Duwaynea Anderson
> DuwayneAnder...@gmail.com (Duwaynea Anderson) wrote:
>
> > <snip>
>
> >>> Where? Where do Mormon prophets say God=Council?
>
> >> "Thus the head God brought forth the Gods in the grand
> >> council" as translation of the 1st verse of the Bible -
> >> "In the beginning, God created ..."
>
> > That says a committee consists of gods, not that the word
> > "god" should be read as "committee."
>
> > You wouldn't interpret "person" as committee, would you?
>
> Point is that Smith did EXACTLY that. He said the the first word of
> the Bible, "God"
Not true. Smith used the word "gods" to talk about the committee. He
didn't use the singular.
Again, there is nothing in Mormon doctrine that equates the word god
(singlar) with a committee. Mormonism teaches that god is a
changeable being -- something mortals can be come, and that god the
father was also once a mortal.
<snip remaining personal insults and opinion>
Vagabond
> > Absolutely false.
>
> Really? Which parts:
>
> 1) The prophet, as a baptized member of the church, has the gift of
> the holy ghost, and the promise that the holy ghost will be his
> constant companion as long as he lives worthy.
>
> Do you deny the gift of the holy ghost? Is it false?
Do I believe that the gift of the Holy Ghost is false? I assume
that's a rhetorical question, but in case you think otherwise, of
course not.
> 2) D&C 68:3-4 "And whatsoever they shall speak when moved upon by the
> holy ghost shall be scripture...." [http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/68/3-4#3]
>
> Do you deny the truthfulness of D&C 68: 3-4? Was god lying when he
> supposedly said those words to Smith?
God was not lying...again, I assume you're being rhetorical here.
However, I feel I must correct you regarding these verses in D&C. The
gift of the Holy Ghost means that he is your constant companion, but
that is different than being "moved upon by the Holy Ghost." Constant
companionship does not mean that the prophets are constantly being
"moved upon" so that they are in a constant nonstop state of epiphany
where they are constantly having visions in perpetuity. That's just
crazy and absurd.
> > When a new prophet becomes the prophet, does
> > everything he ever said suddenly become "doctrine?"
>
> If #1 is true and #2 is true, then yes. If either #1 or #2 is not
> true, then no.
???? Are you really trying to make that jump? So EVERYTHING a new
prophet EVER said is instantly official "doctrine" of the church? So
when he was 5 years old he would open his mouth and doctrine just
poured out? What kind of absurdity is this? You can't seriously be
reconciling this in your head without deceiving yourself. Its as if
you want to make that leap because it would justify not believing in
Mormonism.
> Since you disagree with the conclusion you must think that #1 is false
> or #2 is false. So, which is it? Which one do you deny?
A false dilemma in its perfect form as scientists love to state. Your
equivocation is off the charts here.
> > The only official
> > doctrine that comes forth from the prophet's mouth are those
> > statements that are then ratified by the church as doctrine.
>
> The church has never voted to sustain your statement. You just made
> that up. You are just preaching your personal opinion.
Really? I just made that up? Hmmm, I wonder if you ever did any
research into how official doctrine becomes official doctrine? How
did the official declarations become canonized and accepted as
official doctrine? Why don't you look that one up. While you're at
it, why don't you look up why changes are made to books like Gospel
Principles, why refraining from drinking caffeine is not official
doctrine, and why "Jesus the Christ" was denied becoming official
cannon of the church.
Where is the line YOU are drawing for official doctrine? Your problem
(or voluntary delusion) is you set the standard for official doctrine
so low that whatever missionaries or Laurels say is official
"doctrine." Absurd!
> So which do you think is false? #1 or #2?
*Sigh*
> > There is a LINE drawn that tells a member what is
> > really doctrine and what is not.
>
> Really? Let's test your assertion. I'd like you to use this "line"
> to tell us if the facsimiles in the Book of Abraham are scripture.
> Please answer this simple question: "Are the facsimiles in the Book
> of Abraham scripture?"
>
Was it canonized? Did the church ratify it? Were there official
declarations concerning it from the First Presidency and Quorum of the
Twelve Apostles? I'm too busy to look it up, do your own research and
if it fits all these criteria, then yes, they are.
> There is no scripture that says that, and the church has never voted
> to sustain your statement. You just made that up.
>
Wow. There's no scripture that says everything a prophet ever said
since birth is official doctrine of the church. There's no scripture
that expounds on the technicalities and responsibilities of the
Primary Presidency or the Pianist. I guess there's no need for modern
revelation or General Handbooks of Instruction. Everything is there
already.
> So, apparently, you really do think that god lied in D&C 68:3-4, when
> he said "And whatsoever they shall speak when moved upon by the holy
> ghost shall be scripture...." [http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/68/3-4#3]
>
> Or, are you simply suggesting that LDS prophets sin so profusely that
> they don't have the holy ghost with them?
>
When moved upon, when moved upon, when moved upon, etc, etc, etc.
Lets use an example shall we? Look up Alma 40 verse 20, never mind,
I'll post it here for you:
20 Now, my son, I do not say that their resurrection cometh at the
resurrection of Christ; but behold, I give it as my opinion, that the
souls and the bodies are reunited, of the righteous, at the
resurrection of Christ, and his ascension into heaven.
Prophets are imperfect people too you know. They are not magical
wizards that constantly spew official doctrine every time they open
their mouths every waking moment of every day. Furthermore, they are
entitled, as is everyone else, to their own opinions and speculation
based on the level of knowledge one has. They don't know everything
about God and His mysteries. To imply that they do is falsehood and
plain old-fashioned intentional deception.
THE END
Duwaynea Anderson
> > > Absolutely false.
>
> > Really? Which parts:
>
> > 1) The prophet, as a baptized member of the church, has the gift of
> > the holy ghost, and the promise that the holy ghost will be his
> > constant companion as long as he lives worthy.
>
> > Do you deny the gift of the holy ghost? Is it false?
>
> Do I believe that the gift of the Holy Ghost is false? I assume
> that's a rhetorical question, but in case you think otherwise, of
> course not.
No, it's not rhetorical. You seem to think that the prophet doesn't
have the gift of the holy ghost.
> > 2) D&C 68:3-4 "And whatsoever they shall speak when moved upon by the
> > holy ghost shall be scripture...." [http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/68/3-4#3]
>
> > Do you deny the truthfulness of D&C 68: 3-4? Was god lying when he
> > supposedly said those words to Smith?
>
> God was not lying...again, I assume you're being rhetorical here.
Not at all. You asserted that prophets don’t necessarily speak
scripture. But if they have the holy ghost and D&C 68:3-4 is true,
then it would be scripture.
Since you don't think it is scripture, you must think that:
1) D&C 68: 3-4 is not true
Or
2) They don’t really have the holy ghost
Or both.
Which is it?
> However, I feel I must correct you regarding these verses in D&C. The
> gift of the Holy Ghost means that he is your constant companion, but
> that is different than being "moved upon by the Holy Ghost."
Please quote the scripture that says that. You are just making this
stuff up.
<snip>
> > If #1 is true and #2 is true, then yes. If either #1 or #2 is not
> > true, then no.
>
> ???? Are you really trying to make that jump?
Hey, this is *your* crazy religion, not mine. I don't think your
prophets *ever* speak by the holy ghost.
<snip>
> > > The only official
> > > doctrine that comes forth from the prophet's mouth are those
> > > statements that are then ratified by the church as doctrine.
>
> > The church has never voted to sustain your statement. You just made
> > that up. You are just preaching your personal opinion.
>
> Really?
Really. Try to find a scripture that says what you just said.
> I just made that up?
Yep. We know that because you replied without a reference supporting
your assertion.
<snip>
> Where is the line YOU are drawing for official doctrine?
There's no such thing as "official" doctrine. Go ahead, try to find
an official definition of official doctrine. See if you can do it.
Make sure the definition is official, or it doesn't count, because you
can't have official doctrine defined by a non-official source.
<snip personal insult -- something frustrated Mormons do>
> > Really? Let's test your assertion. I'd like you to use this "line"
> > to tell us if the facsimiles in the Book of Abraham are scripture.
> > Please answer this simple question: "Are the facsimiles in the Book
> > of Abraham scripture?"
>
> Was it canonized?
That's what "scripture" means. Now stop stalling. Are the facsimiles
scripture, or not?
<snip>
> Prophets are imperfect people too you know.
Oh, I agree. Joseph Smith was an adulterer and con man -- a real
dirty rotten scoundrel. But he's *your* prophet, so you have to live
with his legacy, not me.
<snip to end>
Vagabond
wrote:
Wow, I rest my case your honor, no further questions.
Duwaynea Anderson
Just to remind folks, let's summarize:
1) Mormon doctrine says a person receives the gift of the holy ghost
upon baptism. This gift is supposedly a promise that the holy ghost
will be the "constant companion" as long as the person lives worthy.
2) Mormon scripture says every thing the prophet speaks when moved
upon by the holy ghost is scripture.
Mormon apologists -- embarrassed by some doctrines taught by LDS
prophets -- have tried to argue that the prophet wasn't speaking
scripture.
If this assertion is true then the prophet must not be moved by the
holy ghost; a violation of the promise at baptism or the result of
sin. In either case, it leaves the prophet an empty shell.
Mormon apologists try to wiggle out of the problem but inevitably end
up quoting themselves more often than LDS scripture. This particular
apologist (posting as Vagabond) asserted a definition of "official LDS
doctrine" that he can't support. He's also asserted a prophet can
have the holy ghost, be moved to pronounce doctrine, but not be
"moved" by the holy ghost. Queried to provide a scripture citation
he's left without response.
Mostly, Vagabond simply seems incredulous at the logical outcome of
LDS doctrine. He seems to know the prophets say false and misleading
things, but he's not sure how to deal with the issue because even
though the song says "follow the prophet, follow the prophet, follow
the prophet, he knows the way," Vagabond seems to realize the prophet
doesn't know which way he's going.
紐. L. Measures
<7392808b-fb69-4ee0...@56g2000hsm.googlegroups.com>,
Duwaynea Anderson <Duwayne...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On May 22, 5:12 pm, Vagabond <vagabo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > Absolutely false.
> >
> > > Really? Which parts:
> >
> > > 1) The prophet, as a baptized member of the church, has the gift of
> > > the holy ghost, and the promise that the holy ghost will be his
> > > constant companion as long as he lives worthy.
> >
> > > Do you deny the gift of the holy ghost? Is it false?
> >
> > Do I believe that the gift of the Holy Ghost is false? I assume
> > that's a rhetorical question, but in case you think otherwise, of
> > course not.
>
> No, it's not rhetorical. You seem to think that the prophet doesn't
> have the gift of the holy ghost.
>
** If the prophet really had the gift of the Holy Ghost. would not the
prophet have been able to discern that Mark Hofmann was a master forger?
Since the first person to make this discernment was Jerald Tanner, he
apparently had the gift of the Holy Ghost. RIP Jerald.
--
R.L. Measures. 805-386-3734, www.somis.org
"john p"
Wow, a mormon surrendered quickly. He must not be from these parts.
dfo...@gl.umbc.edu
> The trek of the people of Nephi around 550BC who became gold and
> steelsword smiths shepherds, was the Thracian tribe of the Chalibes of
> Exhalibur fame on their historical trek to north east of the Black
> Sea.
[someone]"How do you explain that the BOM lists the existence of
horses, elephants, barley, wheat, wheeled chariots, steel swords,
minted coins - all things that did not exist in the Americas until
they were introduced after Columbus?"
[another person]"NOWHERE in the Book of Mormon does it mention coins,
minted coins or anything described as coins, but let's not let FACTS
get in the way"
Alma 11
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/alma/11
3 And the judge received for his wages according to his time—a senine
of gold for a day, or a senum of silver, which is equal to a senine of
gold; and this is according to the law which was given.
4 Now these are the names of the different pieces of their gold, and
of their silver, according to their value. And the names are given by
the Nephites, for they did not reckon after the manner of the Jews who
were at Jerusalem; neither did they measure after the manner of the
Jews; but they altered their reckoning and their measure, according to
the minds and the circumstances of the people, in every generation,
until the reign of the judges, they having been established by king
Mosiah.
5 Now the reckoning is thus—a senine of gold, a seon of gold, a shum
of gold, and a limnah of gold.
6 A senum of silver, an amnor of silver, an ezrom of silver, and an
onti of silver.
7 A senum of silver was equal to a senine of gold, and either for a
measure of barley, and also for a measure of every kind of grain.
==
20 Now, it was for the sole purpose to get gain, because they received
their wages according to their employ, therefore, they did stir up the
people to riotings, and all manner of disturbances and wickedness,
that they might have more employ, that they might get money according
to the suits which were brought before them; therefore they did stir
up the people against Alma and Amulek.
/////////////////////////
how good are steel bows?; 1 Nephi 16:18
Also, when was steel 1st made?
1 Nephi 16
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/1_ne/16
18 And it came to pass that as I, Nephi, went forth
to slay food, behold, I did break my bow, which was
made of fine steel; and after I did break my bow,
behold, my brethren were angry with me because of
the loss of my bow, for we did obtain no food.
Ether 7
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/ether/7
9 Wherefore, he came to the hill Ephraim, and he
did molten out of the hill, and made swords out of
steel for those whom he had drawn away with
him....
2 Nephi 5
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_ne/5
15 And I did teach my people to build buildings, and
to work in all manner of wood, and of iron, and of
copper, and of brass, and of steel, and of gold, and
of silver, and of precious ores, which were in great
abundance.
"john p"
> On May 12, 5:53 pm, NickYoungh <dejonghn...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > The trek of the people of Nephi around 550BC who became gold and
> > steelsword smiths shepherds, was the Thracian tribe of the Chalibes of
> > Exhalibur fame on their historical trek to north east of the Black
> > Sea.
>
> [someone]"How do you explain that the BOM lists the existence of
> horses, elephants, barley, wheat, wheeled chariots, steel swords,
> minted coins - all things that did not exist in the Americas until
> they were introduced after Columbus?"
>
> [another person]"NOWHERE in the Book of Mormon does it mention coins,
> minted coins or anything described as coins, but let's not let FACTS
> get in the way"
>
> 18 And it came to pass that as I, Nephi, went forth
> to slay food, behold, I did break my bow, which was
> made of fine steel; and after I did break my bow,
> behold, my brethren were angry with me because of
> the loss of my bow, for we did obtain no food.
>
> 9 Wherefore, he came to the hill Ephraim, and he
> did molten out of the hill, and made swords out of
> steel for those whom he had drawn away with
> him....
>
> 15 And I did teach my people to build buildings, and
> to work in all manner of wood, and of iron, and of
> copper, and of brass, and of steel, and of gold, and
> of silver, and of precious ores, which were in great
> abundance.
The Native Americans didn't have metal coins as described there,
because they aren't the primary descendants [as the Book of Mormon
alledges] of a fictitious group of people mormons call "Lamanites."
They didn't have metal swords either. As a matter of fact, the Book
of Mormon cities never existed anywhere anymore than J. M. Barrie's,
"Never Never Land." Mormonism is a complete fabrication and anyone
who takes it seriously should have their head examined.
john p
--
Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione
NickYoungh
> On May 12, 5:53 pm, NickYoungh <dejonghn...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > The trek of the people of Nephi around 550BC who became gold and
> > steelsword smiths shepherds, was the Thracian tribe of the Chalybes of
> > Exhalibur fame on their historical trek to north east of the Black
> > Sea.
Did you realise that the Thracean Chalybes are real old world
history ?
It is nice to see myself on top of a collage of exantimo's citates
meant to prove that the BoM is a fraud and purely fatasies.
And why not, if my theory that the BoM are real historical records of
the exiled old world Jews in the Diaspora, get accepted by mainstream
historeans, it will be the end of the LDS church.
>
> [someone]"How do you explain that the BOM lists the existence of
> horses, elephants, barley, wheat, wheeled chariots, steel swords,
> minted coins - all things that did not exist in the Americas until
> they were introduced after Columbus?"
This question is allready answered by the top citation of my work.
If the people of Nephi were the real old world historical Thracians,
than all these exantmo's old cows grazed in Greece and Turkey
Alma 11http://scriptures.lds.org/en/alma/11
> 3 And the judge received for his wages according to his time—a senine
> of gold for a day, or a senum of silver, which is equal to a senine of
> gold; and this is according to the law which was given.
The Greek Jewish kingdom of the Bosporean is famous for their ancient
coins as far as from 550bC. The whole history of the Bosporean kingdom
is based on the hoards of coins found.
Books about it. however are, pity enough still in untranslated
Russian.
What is known anyway, is that the golden coins came from the Bosporan
kingdom and the silver ones from the Roman empire.
> 4 Now these are the names of the different pieces of their gold, and
> of their silver, according to their value. And the names are given by
> the Nephites, for they did not reckon after the manner of the Jews who
> were at Jerusalem; neither did they measure after the manner of the
> Jews; but they altered their reckoning and their measure, according to
> the minds and the circumstances of the people, in every generation,
> until the reign of the judges, they having been established by king
> Mosiah.
This points out to minted coins
> 5 Now the reckoning is thus—a senine of gold, a seon of gold, a shum
> of gold, and a limnah of gold.
> 6 A senum of silver, an amnor of silver, an ezrom of silver, and an
> onti of silver.
> 7 A senum of silver was equal to a senine of gold, and either for a
> measure of barley, and also for a measure of every kind of grain.
I f you set them in a row, you come to the 63/64 Egyptian
barleymeasure hequat.
Google for Hequat on ARMs and read my thread about it.
FARMS as well made later on a similar article about it.
> ==
> 20 Now, it was for the sole purpose to get gain, because they received
> their wages according to their employ, therefore, they did stir up the
> people to riotings, and all manner of disturbances and wickedness,
> that they might have more employ, that they might get money according
> to the suits which were brought before them; therefore they did stir
> up the people against Alma and Amulek.
It is a pity that you did not cite my posting Zeezrom was Cicero.
> /////////////////////////
> how good are steel bows?; 1 Nephi 16:18
> Also, when was steel 1st made?
>
> 1 Nephi 16http://scriptures.lds.org/en/1_ne/16
> 18 And it came to pass that as I, Nephi, went forth
> to slay food, behold, I did break my bow, which was
> made of fine steel; and after I did break my bow,
> behold, my brethren were angry with me because of
> the loss of my bow, for we did obtain no food.
Again the top citation of my work has allready given the answer.
The people of Nephi were the Thracian tribe of the Chalybes, who were
famous for their steelwork of Excalibur fame.
> Ether 7http://scriptures.lds.org/en/ether/7
> 9 Wherefore, he came to the hill Ephraim, and he
> did molten out of the hill, and made swords out of
> steel for those whom he had drawn away with him
The Chalybes lived at the eastern corner of the Black Sea
>
> 2 Nephi 5http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_ne/5
> 15 And I did teach my people to build buildings, and
> to work in all manner of wood, and of iron, and of
> copper, and of brass, and of steel, and of gold, and
> of silver, and of precious ores, which were in great
> abundance.
The Thracians, whose tombs and treasures have recently be found fit
very well in this decription
I know my comparison of BoM verses with old world history books, is a
far of your bed show, but Google on my main words like Thracians and
Chalybes and you will see the light through the windows of natural
glass in the Phoenician submarines.