There have been some who have asked just what problems I find with
Randy Jordan's reporting accuracy, credibility, etc. I am not going to
engage in a debate on this matter, but will post my observations with
supporting documentation and let those who read this article make up
their own minds, although I think that most minds are already made up.
   Randy has a self proclaimed "vast knowledge" of LDS history, which
should encompass facts/knowledge presenting both sides of an issue. I
invite any perusers of this article to examine Randy's past posts on
anything LDS and ascertain if he presents an impartial point of view. He
claims to be presenting the plain and unvarnished truth.

  My first example wll be concerning the Mountain Meadows Massacre. It
is Randy;s contention that Brigham Young had foreknowledge of the
Mountain Meadows Massacre, and actually was the planner of the deed. One
of the references that he uses is David Bigler's "Forgotten Kingdom".
This is what Bigler had to say on the subject:

 "Hamblin and some twelve Indian chiefs . . .met with Brigham Young and
his
 most trusted interpreter, 49-year-old Dimick B. Huntington, at Great
Salt
 Lake.  Taking part in this pow-wow were Kanosh, the Mormon chief of the

 Pahvants; Ammon, half-brother of Walker; Tutsegabit, head chief of the
 Piedes; Youngwuds, another Piede chieftain, and other leaders of desert

 bands along the Santa Clara and Virgin rivers.  Little was known of
what
 they talked about until recently when it came to light that Huntington
 (apparently speaking for Young) told the chiefs that he "gave them all
the
 cattle that had god to Cal[ifornia by] the south rout[e]." The gift
"made
 them open their eyes," he said.  But "you have told us not to steal,"
the
 Indians replied. "So I have," Huntington said, "but now they have come
to
 fight us & you for when they kill us they will kill you."  The chiefs
knew
 what cattle he was giving them. They belonged to the Baker-Fancher
train."
 (Bigler,  Forgotten Kingdom, 168)

   Bigler apparently got his information from Dimick Huntington's diary.
Here is the excerpt.

Tuesday Ist Sept.57. Konosh the Pahvant Chief, Ammon & wife (Walker's
brother) & 11 Pahvants CAME IN TO SEE B & D & FIND OUT ABOUT THE
SOLDIERS. Tutseygubbit, a Piede Chief over 6 Piedes bands, Youngwuols
[?] another Piede & I gave them all the cattle that had gone to Cal. the
south rout It made them open their eyes.  They sayed that you have told
us not to steal.  So I have, but now they have come to fight us & you,
for when they kill us then they will kill you.  They sayed the[y] was
afraid to fight the Americans & so would raise grain and we might fight.

   The purpose of this meeting as stated, was to find out about the
soldiers that were on their way to Utah at the time. But that part of
the excerpt is left out of Bigler's book. Excerpts from Dimmick's diary
are available for those who would like to get a clearer, contempoaneous
picture of what was the primary concern at the time.

   Another source that Randy uses is Hans P. Freece:

Former Mormon Hans B. Freece, in 1907, offered:

"The murdered emigrants were of the Methodist faith and were on their
way to
California to seek new homes. The chief cause of the massacre was a
desire on
the part of the Mormons to come into possession of the new wagons, fine
horses
and all the abundant farming implements which the emigrants had; all
valued at about $300,000

   How credible is Freece? How well did Randy check his sources? His
information would seem to have come from "Letters of an Apostate Mormon
to His Son", by Hans B. Freece, 1907. If that is Randy's source, he did
not read very much of it, because Hans himself tells us, in an indirect
way, that he was not in Utah at the time of the Mountain Meadows
Massacre. In a letter dated April of 1907, he tells of his early
experiences in Utah. Upon first arriving in Utah, he did not speak or
understand English very well, but was able to find a fellow countryman
(Denmark) who had been in Utah a while and was able to guide and
interpret for him. I will quote directly from the copy I have of the
letter.
" During our journey to San Pete County, this newly found friend told me
of his early experiences. He had been a tailor in a large city in
Denmark. He had come to Utah just before Johnston was ordered to march
here with his regiment. He had been sent with others to oppose
Johnston's entrance to Salt
Lake Valley."

   Hans does not give many dates or names in his letters, but from his
own narrative he tacitly acknowledges that he was not in Utah when the
Mountain Meadows massacre occurred. Randy does not seem to know this
(which someone with a vast knowledge of LDS history should), or if he
did, he did not point it out in his post. He just presented the excerpt
as an authoritative reference.

   Another aspect of Randy's investigative reporting is a seeming
blanket belief in any negative reports against concerning the LDS,
especially if they come from oficial sources. Let us take the case of
Judge W. W. Drummond, for example.
   Randy reports:
In 1855, one of the succeeding associate justices, William W. Drummond,
tendered his resignation, and included among his reasons:

"That Brigham Young is the head of the Mormon Church; and, as such head,
the
Mormons look to him, and to him alone, for the law by which they are to
be
governed; therefore no law of congress is by them considered binding in
any
matter; that he [Drummond] knew that a secret, oath-bound organization
existed
among all the male members of the Church to resist the laws of the
country, and
to acknowledge no law save the law of the priesthood, which came to the
people
through Brigham Young; that there were a number of men 'set apart by
special
order of the Church', to take both the lives and property of any person
who may
question the authority of the Church."  [Drummond was undoubtedly
referring to
Young's "Avenging Angels" such as Porter Rockwell and "Wild Bill"
Hickman.]
"That the records, papers, etc., of the supreme court have been
destroyed by
order of the Church, with the direct knowledge and approbation of
Governor
Young, and the federal officers grossly insulted for presuming to raise
a
single question about the treasonable act.  That the federal officers of
the
territory are constantly insulted, harassed, and annoyed by the Mormons,
and
for these insults there is no redress.  That the federal officers are
daily
compelled to hear the form of American government traduced, the chief
executives of the Nation, both living and dead, slandered and abused
from the
masses as well as from all the leading members of the Church.  The judge
also
charged discrimination in the administration of the laws as against
Mormon and
Gentile; that Captain John W. Gunnison and his party were murdered by
Indians,
but under the orders, advice and direction of the Mormons; that the
Mormons
poisoned Judge Leonidas Shaver, Drummond's predecessor; that Almon W. ,
secretary of the Territory, had been killed on the plains by a band of
Mormon
marauders, who were 'sent from Salt Lake City for that purpose, and that
only';
under direct orders of the presidency of the Church of the Latter-Day
Saints,
and that Babbitt was not killed by Indians, as reported from Utah."

   Randy does not tell you that Judge Drummond had abandoned his wife
and family upon his appointment as a Utah Territorial Judge and brought
with him a prostitute whom he passed off as his wife (CHC Vol 4-Chapter
CIII with quotes from H. H. Bancroft and Jules Remy). Even LDS critic
William A. Linn noted Drummond's complete lack of fitness for the
position.
    Randy does not tell you that Judge Drummond had a Fillmore merchant,
Isaac Abrhams, horsewhipped for publicly speaking out against this
charade. It apparently was the heat from the disclosure of his perfidy
and the horse whipping incident which were the motivating factors in
Judge Drummond leaving Fillmore for Carson County and then for
California where he began his editorial tirades against the Mormons (CHC
Vol 4-Chapter CIII)
   Randy also does not tell you that the allegations raised by Judge
Drummond concerning the records and papers of the Supreme Court were
refuted by the incoming Governor Cumming in his investigation.
   Randy does not tell you that : "died in Great Salt Lake City in June
1855 of an inflammation of the inner ear (compounded by the jurist's use
of opium)".(Harold Schindler, Salt Lake tribune article "Saints Invited
to Flock to Zion").
   Concerning the death of Almon Babbitt, Randy does not tell you that
no credible report report,  in any way implicates any whites, LDS or
not. But in fact the reports of Indian agent Thomas Twiss (Nebraska
Historical Society Vol 18, page 199), his brother-in-law, and his wife
affirm that it was the Cheyenne Indians who perpetrated this act. (CHC
Vol. 4, Chapter CIII)
   Of course, one of Randy's athoritative sources (although he did not
quote her on this one), Ann Eliza Young (Wife Number Nineteen) states
that Almon Babbitt was murdered by the Mormons because he was an
apostate fleeing to the East. However every other source that I have
offered on Babbitt aver that he was heading East to pick up the mail (he
was a mail carrier), when he was killed. Check it out. But it says much
about her credibility.

   And finally, on the Danite question, Randy does not understand why
and how the following list of names effectively refute his (and that of
many others) writings on the Danite question.

Philastus Hurlbut
John C. Bennett
William Law
Wilson Law
Thomas B. Marsh
Orson Hyde
Sampson Avard
Hans B. Freece
Charles Ivins
Charles Foster
Robert Foster
Francis Higbee
Chauncey Higbee
J. H. Beadle
William "Wild Bill" Hickman
Warren Parrish
W.W. Phelps
David Whitmer
William McLellin
Burr Riggs

   If any of you do not know, do a little research and the light might
dawn.

Glenn

   But he only presents one side. Which makes his knowledge of LdS
history only half-vast.

<ducking>

bestRegards, Guy.

Drummond used to lecture the Latter-day Saints on morals from
the bench when he handed down sentences.  Sometimes he had his
hooker sit next to him while he did this.

Wasn't this the gal that escaped BY's harem by leaping from an
upper window of the Salt Lake Temple into the Salt Lake?

Wood

Part 1 of 4

<There have been some who have asked just what problems I find with
 Randy Jordan's reporting accuracy, credibility, etc. I am not going to
 engage in a debate on this matter,

That's a wise decision, considering what happened the last time you attempted
to.

read this article make up their own minds, although I think that most minds are
already made up.

Translation:  "I'll post my material and run away, because I don't want to deal
with Randy's rebuttal."

Compared to yours, that's an accurate assessment, which I believe that the vast
majority of readers would agree with.

I am quite conversant on both sides of the issues, as is obvious from the
material I presented to you months ago.  You seem to forget that I was a Mormon
for the first 42 years of my life, and that I heard the Mormon "side of the
issues" constantly during that time.  

 anything LDS and ascertain if he presents an impartial point of view.

I'm not here to set out to "present an impartial point of view."  Most ARM
readers are familiar with the Mormon "point of view," and I find it unnecessary
to rehash what readers here have been taught all their lives.  My agenda is to
inform interested readers of the "side of the issues" that the LDS Church fails
to disclose.

I present material from documented historical sources, and draw logical
conclusions from them.  The conclusion drawn from pro-Mormon sources are
illogical, unforthcoming, and are clearly designed for purposes of propaganda,
rather than education.

Randy's contention that Brigham Young had foreknowledge of the Mountain Meadows
Massacre, and actually was the planner of the deed.

That's correct, as made obvious by the numerous items of information I
presented.  The MMM was merely one criminal act among many that Mormons engaged
in, upon the orders and policies of their leaders Joseph Smith and Brigham
Young, from 1838 to 1877.

This is what Bigler had to say on the subject:

 most trusted interpreter, 49-year-old Dimick B. Huntington, at GreatSalt Lake.
 Taking part in this pow-wow were Kanosh, the Mormon chief of the Pahvants;
Ammon, half-brother of Walker; Tutsegabit, head chief of the Piedes; Youngwuds,
another Piede chieftain, and other leaders of desert bands along the Santa
Clara and Virgin rivers.  Little was known of what they talked about until
recently when it came to light that Huntington (apparently speaking for Young)
told the chiefs that he "gave them all
 the cattle that had god to Cal[ifornia by] the south rout[e]." The gift "made
them open their eyes," he said.  But "you have told us not to steal,"  the
Indians replied. "So I have," Huntington said, "but now they have come to fight
us & you for when they kill us they will kill you."  The chiefs knew what
cattle he was giving them. They belonged to the Baker-Fancher train."  (Bigler,
 Forgotten Kingdom, 168)

the excerpt.

 brother) & 11 Pahvants CAME IN TO SEE B & D & FIND OUT ABOUT THE
 SOLDIERS. Tutseygubbit, a Piede Chief over 6 Piedes bands, Youngwuols
 [?] another Piede & I gave them all the cattle that had gone to Cal. the
 south rout It made them open their eyes.  They sayed that you have told
 us not to steal.  So I have, but now they have come to fight us & you,
 for when they kill us then they will kill you.  They sayed the[y] was
 afraid to fight the Americans & so would raise grain and we might fight.

were on their way to Utah at the time. But that part of the excerpt is left out
of Bigler's book.

As I made it perfectly clear via numerous documented sources, your idea that
this meeting in question was concerning the soldiers of Johnson's army is
invalid, because the particular Indians in attendance at that meeting lived in
Southern Utah, right on the trail that the Fancher party took, and some 300
miles southeast of where Johnson's Army was at the time.  Johnson's Army had no
intention of going any further west or south than Salt Lake City, and was no
threat to southern Indians in the least.

The thing that you cannot get through your thick skull is that Brigham Young
deceived the naive, trusting Indians into believing that the Fancher party were
ALSO soldiers, and thus the "enemies" of both the Mormons and the Indians.  It
was only Young's casting of the Fancher party as a threat that incited the
Indians to attack them.

The idea that Indian chiefs from Southern Utah, 200 miles south of SLC, would
be concerned about what Johnson's Army, 300 miles to the northeast was doing,
is preposterous.   The meeting with Young, (Indian agent) Hamblin, Huntington,
etc., served to incite the Indians to attack the Fancher party, and that is
exactly what they did.

clearer, contempoaneous picture of what was the primary concern at the time.

You already quoted the excerpts from Huntingdon's diary months ago.  I wrote a
two-part response to it.  I will re-post them under the title "Dimick
Huntington and the MMM."  Hopefully, you won't ignore them this time.

For another source that sheds more light on the situation, Juanita Brooks
wrote:

"Jacob Hamblin, faced with his new responsibility for the Indians and concerned
about making them understand their part in the approaching war, decided to take
a group of the chiefs to Great Salt Lake City for an interview with the great
Mormon chief, Brigham Young.  His handwritten diary, as yet unpublished, says:

'I started for Great Salt Lake City in company with Thales Haskell and
Tutsegabit [the Yannawant chief.]  He had felt anxiousfor a long time to visit
Brigham Young.  We fell in company with George A. Smith.  Conosh [the Puavant
chief] joined us.  Other Indian chiefs also joined our company.  When we
arrived in the City there were ten of them went up to see Brigham Young, the
Great Mormon chief.  We encamped on Corn Creek on our way up; near a company of
Emigrants from Arkansas, on the-----'

"Here the account stops abruptly, for the next leaf is torn out."  ("Mountain
Meadows Massacre," Juanita Brooks, pp. 40-41.)

Now, the inquisitive reader would naturally ask, "Why was the next page in
Hamblin's diary torn out?"  Considering the fact that the prior entry mentioned
the "company of Emigrants from Arkansas," it doesn't take a Sherlock Holmes to
answer that question.  Undoubtedly, either Hamblin, or some later Mormon,
ripped out whatever followed that entry, most likely to destroy the "paper
trail" of Hamblin's activities and Mormon involvement in the MMM following the
meeting with the Indians.

As Brooks continues:  "The previous Mormon policy had been to keep the natives
from stealing and plundering and to teach them the peaceful pursuits of farming
and cattle raising, but now Brigham Young seemed determined that he would no
longer 'hold them by the wrist,' as he told Captain van Vliet a few days later.
 The Indians must have started back immediately, for in seven days they were
harassing the emigrants at Mountain Meadows, and in ten days they participated
in the massacre of the company."
(ibid., pp. 41-42.)

If we believed Glenn Thigpen's line of apologetics, the southern Indians, after
meeting with Young, should have prepared to travel 300 miles northeast to
Wyoming and aid the Mormons in engaging Johnson's Army.  But to the contrary,
those Indians went right back to their land in southern Utah, and attacked the
Fancher party.  That again makes it obvious that the "cattle that had gone to
California by the south route", which Dimick Huntington wrote of, was the
cattle that belonged to the Fancher train, or perhaps of the Duke party which
followed.

Glenn, this is your first response to this issue in several months.  You might
one day realize that it would have been better for you to just remain silent.

Randy J.

Part 2 of 4

 California to seek new homes. The chief cause of the massacre was a desire on
the part of the Mormons to come into possession of the new wagons, fine horses
and all the abundant farming implements which the emigrants had; all valued at
about $300,000

 information would seem to have come from "Letters of an Apostate Mormon
 to His Son", by Hans B. Freece, 1907. If that is Randy's source, he did
 not read very much of it, because Hans himself tells us, in an indirect
 way, that he was not in Utah at the time of the Mountain Meadows
 Massacre. In a letter dated April of 1907, he tells of his early
 experiences in Utah. Upon first arriving in Utah, he did not speak or
 understand English very well, but was able to find a fellow countryman
 (Denmark) who had been in Utah a while and was able to guide and
 interpret for him. I will quote directly from the copy I have of the
 letter.
 " During our journey to San Pete County, this newly found friend told me
 of his early experiences. He had been a tailor in a large city in
 Denmark. He had come to Utah just before Johnston was ordered to march
 here with his regiment. He had been sent with others to oppose
 Johnston's entrance to Salt
 Lake Valley."

 own narrative he tacitly acknowledges that he was not in Utah when the
 Mountain Meadows massacre occurred. Randy does not seem to know this
 (which someone with a vast knowledge of LDS history should), or if he
 did, he did not point it out in his post. He just presented the excerpt
 as an authoritative reference.

It should be obvious to those of normal intelligence that Freece's account,
written in 1907, was secondhand.  That does not render it unauthoritative.
MANY dissident Mormons related accounts of secret, criminal acts of Mormonism
to friends, relatives, investigators, reporters, etc.  I only quoted from the
Freece account as supportive material, to give an idea of the wealth of the
Fancher party, and the financial motive for them to be attacked.  Your attempt
to discredit Freece's account is invalidated by the fact that other people also
gave details of the wealth of the Fancher party.  In my original post from
which you gleaned this snippet from Freece, I also quoted historian David
Bigler's remarks on the Fancher train's wealth.  I see that you declined to
comment on it.  Could that be because it corroborated Freece's remarks?  For
those interested, here is Bigler's comment:

"The Arkansas company was relatively affluent.  Most of its wealth took the
form of a large herd of cattle, estimated by various observers to number from
three hundred to a thousand head, not including other animals, work oxen,
horses, or mules. ... John W. Baker later placed the value of property his
father took on the journey at 'the full sum of ten thousand dollars.' Besides
animals, some thirty or forty wagons and equipment, members also carried
varying amounts of cash..." ("Forgotten Kingdom", p. 160.)

Glenn's tactic here is typical dishonest Mormon apologetics.  He tries to
discredit Freece's comments---which I only included as supplemental
information---on the basis that they were "secondhand."  But Glenn snips the
quote from Bigler without comment---which had appeared in my post immediately
before the Freece remarks---even though it was another source which gave
information as to the wealth of the Fancher train.  Thus, Glenn's attempt to
discredit the Freece quote is nullified by the fact that it is corroborated by
others.  Several other accounts, including John D. Lee's, detail the divvying
up of the Fancher party's large amount of cattle and goods among local Indians
and Mormons.

in any negative reports against concerning the LDS, especially if they come
from official sources. Let us take the case of Judge W. W. Drummond, for
example.

 tendered his resignation, and included among his reasons:

 "That Brigham Young is the head of the Mormon Church; and, as such head,
 the
 Mormons look to him, and to him alone, for the law by which they are to
 be
 governed; therefore no law of congress is by them considered binding in
 any
 matter; that he [Drummond] knew that a secret, oath-bound organization
 existed
 among all the male members of the Church to resist the laws of the
 country, and
 to acknowledge no law save the law of the priesthood, which came to the
 people
 through Brigham Young; that there were a number of men 'set apart by
 special
 order of the Church', to take both the lives and property of any person
 who may
 question the authority of the Church."  [Drummond was undoubtedly
 referring to
 Young's "Avenging Angels" such as Porter Rockwell and "Wild Bill"
 Hickman.]
 "That the records, papers, etc., of the supreme court have been
 destroyed by
 order of the Church, with the direct knowledge and approbation of
 Governor
 Young, and the federal officers grossly insulted for presuming to raise
 a
 single question about the treasonable act.  That the federal officers of
 the
 territory are constantly insulted, harassed, and annoyed by the Mormons,
 and
 for these insults there is no redress.  That the federal officers are
 daily
 compelled to hear the form of American government traduced, the chief
 executives of the Nation, both living and dead, slandered and abused
 from the
 masses as well as from all the leading members of the Church.  The judge
 also
 charged discrimination in the administration of the laws as against
 Mormon and
 Gentile; that Captain John W. Gunnison and his party were murdered by
 Indians,
 but under the orders, advice and direction of the Mormons; that the
 Mormons
 poisoned Judge Leonidas Shaver, Drummond's predecessor; that Almon W. ,
 secretary of the Territory, had been killed on the plains by a band of
 Mormon
 marauders, who were 'sent from Salt Lake City for that purpose, and that
 only';
 under direct orders of the presidency of the Church of the Latter-Day
 Saints,
 and that Babbitt was not killed by Indians, as reported from Utah."

 and family upon his appointment as a Utah Territorial Judge

Hmmm, that reminds me of the way Brigham Young abandoned his wife and children
on the frozen plains of Iowa in 1847, and made the journey to Utah in the
company of his 19-year-old "plural wife" Clara Decker.  Gee, I wonder why Young
didn't take one of his 50-year-old "wives" instead of a 19-year-old?  And this
tidbit of information about Drummond does not negate the issue of Mormon
atrocities in the least.

Hmmm, that reminds me of the 50+ women that comprised Brigham Young's harem,
whom he passed off as "wives."  And this tidbit of information about Drummond
does not refute the issue of Mormon atrocities in the least.

LDS critic William A. Linn noted Drummond's complete lack of fitness for the
position.

Under Brigham Young's dictatorial rule, no outsider was "fit" to be a federal
overseer.  And that tidbit of information about Drummond does not negate the
issue of Mormon atrocities in the least.

Abrhams, horsewhipped for publicly speaking out against this charade.

Hmmm, that reminds me of Joseph Smith's and Brigham Young's sermons advocating
that people should be beaten, whipped, or killed for various offenses.  And
that tidbit of information about Drummond does not negate the issue of Mormon
atrocities in the least.

 >It apparently was the heat from the disclosure of his perfidy and the horse
whipping incident which were the motivating factors in Judge Drummond leaving
Fillmore for Carson County and then for California where he began his editorial
tirades against the Mormons (CHC Vol 4-Chapter CIII)

Well, you have done an excellent job of quoting from the "Comprehensive History
of the Church."  Unfortunately, what you don't seem to understand is that the
"Comprehensive History of the Church" isn't "history," but is instead
propaganda, designed to make LDS Church history more palatable to the "flock."

Our hats off to Glenn for once again demonstrating Mopologists' tactic of
"discredit the message by destroying the messenger."   The basic activity of
Mopologists is to identify scapegoats on which they can blame the dubious
incidents in Mormon history.  Glenn's characterization of Drummond is a classic
example of this tactic---trashing the character,  reputation, or motives, of
those who criticize Mormonism, to attempt to negate their criticism.
Unfortunately for Glenn, his attempted "discreditation" of Drummond is
invalidated by two simple facts:  

First, Drummond's reports of the Mormons' alliances with the Indians, and
predictions of atrocities that they were likely to commit, became tragically
true in horrifying detail, in the incident of the MMM itself, mere weeks after
Rep. Stephen A. Douglas repeated them in a speech on June 11, 1857.  Thus, far
from being 'lies' spun by the supposedly  'disreputable' Drummond, his
prophetic report was dead on the money; and that being true, Glenn's attempt to
discredit Drummond's report by discrediting his character are futile.

Secondly, Drummond was not the only, nor the first, federal official to
experience the totalitarian rule of Brigham Young, or to make reports
concerning it.  I explained all of this to Glenn in my 15 posts
...

read more »

Part 3 of 4

< Concerning the death of Almon Babbitt, Randy does not tell you that no
credible report report,  in any way implicates any whites, LDS or not.

You still cannot get it through your head that the modus operandi of the Mormon
Danites of the day was to commit crimes while disguised as Indians, so that
they could blame such atrocities on the Indians.  To repeat, from Josiah Gibbs,
speaking of ten-year-old MMM survivor Charley Fancher:

" It was from the lips of Charley Fancher, soon after his arrival from the
vicinity of the tragedy, that I heard the first story of the massacre. In his
childish way he said that "some of the Indians, after the slaughter, went to
the little creek, and that after washing their faces they were white men."
(Josiah Gibbs, "The Mountain Meadows Massacre.")

Also, from Juanita Brooks, concerning the Duke train, which was attacked and
pillaged shortly after the Fancher train:

"[S. B.] Honea of Franklin County, Arkansas.....said that he passed through
Great Salt Lake City on August 17, that he was everywhere preparations for war,
that the company were harassed by Indians all the way, that in southern Utah
they hired Mormon guides and interpreters to the sum of $1,810, and then were
robbed on the Muddy of 375 head of cattle.  Davis described the Indians who
stole the cattle as having among them some with light, fine hair and blue eyes,
and light streaks where they had not used sufficient paint."  (Brooks,
"Mountain Meadows Massacre," pp. 125-126.)

Society Vol 18, page 199), his brother-in-law, and his wife affirm that it was
the Cheyenne Indians who perpetrated this act. (CHC Vol. 4, Chapter CIII)

For all Twiss knew, that was the truth.  However, the fact that Mormons
committed crimes while disguised as Indians makes Twiss' comments irrelevant.
Of course, there is no way to determine today who killed Babbitt; but we can
certainly examine conditions of the times, and the motives and operations of
the Mormons, and arrive at a more believable presumption than Babbitt's death
being a random murder by Cheyennes.  For starters, why would "Cheyennes" kill
this one single Mormon official, when the Mormons had made it a point to
befriend, feed, and make alliances with all local Indians?  If Cheyennes would
kill Babbitt, then why not numerous other Mormons over the years, as well?  It
simply doesn't add up.  What DOES add up is that a) Babbitt had quarreled with
Brigham Young for years over numerous issues and b) at the time of his death,
Babbitt was carrying the payroll of Utah Territorial officials from Washington.
 Now, would "Cheyennes" be interested in obtaining any U. S. currency?  Of
course not.  Then who WOULD?  Obviously, someone who needed U. S. currency.
Who, in the area, needed U. S. currency in 1856?  Obviously, a group of people
who were in the process of financing a war against the U. S.
Government---Brigham Young and his Mormons.

"Babbitt had been in and out of favor with the authorities of the church many
times, beginning as early as the Kirtland days.  Shortly after his death the
rumor was started in the East, and given prominent space in the Eastern press,
that he had quarreled with Brigham Young and that Brigham Young had ordered his
death.  It was also rumored in the East that Capatin Gunnison, a surveyor
originally with the Stansbury expedition, who had been killed by Indians on the
Sevier River in 1853, had really been put to death on orders of Brigham Young."
  ("Kingdom of the Saints," Ray B. West, p. 249.)

"During all the period from 1852 to 1856 numerous 'Gladdenites' and other
apostate and recusant Mormons were frequently slipping away and crossing to
California and Oregon; and many of these parties, as well as trains of Gentile
emigrants, were harassed in various ways which could hardly be accounted for by
Indian hostility.  Almon W. Babbitt, having quarreled with Brigham, started
across the plains in 1855 and was murdered 'by Indians who spoke good English;'
and of this case Brigham said, 'He lived a fool and died like a fool.  When
officers undertake to interefere with affairs that do not concern them, I will
not be far off.  He undertook to quarrel with me and soon after was killed by
the Indians.'  In 1852 Lieutenant Gunnison, M. Creuzfelt, the botanist, and
eight of their party were massacred near Sevier Lake, as then reported; but,
soon after escaped apostates stated that it was done by 'painted Mormons.' "
("Life in Utah, or the Mysteries and Crimes of Mormonism", J. H. Beadle.)

And from Pulitzer-prize winning historian Wallace Stegner:

"Whether or not Almon Babbitt, while bringing the pay of the territorial
officials back from Washington in the fall of 1856, was ambushed and killed
near Fort Kearney by Indians or, as the Gentiles said, 'by Indians who spoke
good English'---that is, by Porter Rockwell---is a troubling but insoluble
question.  Whether the many men who were "saved" by Rockwell, Hickman, Hanks,
and others were really rubbed out on Brigham Young's orders, or for purposes of
robbery, or while 'resisting arrest' like young Lot Huntington---these are
matters for several careful books of the kind that Juanita Brooks has written
about the Mountain Meadows Massacre, and they will not be written by tomorrow.
One thing is certain:  it was a time of much killing, when the streets of Zion
were hardly safer, at least for certain kinds of people, than the streets of
the wildest mining camp.  And a fair share of the killing was done by men of
God."  ("The Gathering of Zion---The Story of the Mormon Trail," p. 277.)

To repeat---We cannot, in 2001, determine if Babbit was killed by Cheyennes, or
by his fellow Mormons, who were Danites acting on Brigham Young's orders.  But
we CAN examine the conditions of the day and determine the most LIKELY
perpetrators.  Seeing as how Danites of the day took secret  oaths of loyalty
to each other, and of unquestioning obedience to Brigham Young, it's lucky that
we have any information on those mysterious deaths at all.  It's only through
courageous dissidents such as Ann Eliza Webb and John D. Lee that we can
understand what Mormonism under Brigham Young was truly like.  Most other
Mormons were afraid to tell anything.

 quote her on this one), Ann Eliza Young (Wife Number Nineteen)

To the contrary, I SPECIFICALLY cited Ann Eliza Webb as the source in my
original series of posts to you last June.  To repeat:  

In her "Wife No. 19", Ann Eliza Webb concurred with those statements concerning
the state of affairs in the territory:

"When a man left home and failed to return, the general
verdict, as a matter of course, was, "killed by the Indians." Did an exploring
party visit the Territory, and fail to leave it again, their fate, if it was
ever alluded to at all, was regarded as "massacred by Indians."
It is a significant fact that most of the persons who thus perished were
Gentiles, apostates, or people who, for some reason or other, were suspected
by, or disagreeable to, Brigham Young; and it came presently to be noticed
that if anyone became tired of Mormonism, or impatient of the increasing
despotism of the leader, and returned to the East, or started to do so, he
invariably was met by the Indians and killed before he had gone very far.
The effect was to discourage apostasy, and there was no one but knew that
the moment he announced his intention of leaving Zion and returning to
"Babylon," he pronounced his death sentence. He was never discouraged from his
plans, nor was any disapprobation of his course expressed. The faces were as
friendly that he met every day, the voices just as kind; his hand was shaken
at parting, and there was not a touch either of warning or sarcasm in the "God
speed" and bon voyage. But he knew he was a lucky man if, in less than
twenty-four hours after leaving Salt Lake City, he was not lying face downward
on the cold earth, shot to death by an unerring rifle ball, while the stars
looked sorrowfully down, silent witnesses, on this deed of inhuman butchery,
and a man rode swiftly cityward, carrying the news of the midnight murder to
his master, who had commanded him in the name of his religion to commit this
deed, and send an innocent soul before its Maker. "Ah, poor fellow; killed by
the Indians," said all his friends; but Brigham Young and Bill Hickman or
"Port" Rockwell knew better."

As you can read, Webb did not mention the Babbitt case here; therefore, your
mentioning of Webb's account is irrelevant concerning the Babbitt incident.

apostate fleeing to the East. However every other source that I have offered on
Babbitt aver that he was heading East to pick up the mail (he was a mail
carrier), when he was killed. Check it out.

Since Babbitt was carrying a government payroll, that was obviously a prime
reason for his murder.

Since Webb did not mention Babbitt, this says nothing about her credibility,
but it says much about yours.  Not that we didn't already know you have no
credibility concerning Mormon history.

Randy J.

Part 4 of 4

<< And finally, on the Danite question, Randy does not understand why
 and how the following list of names effectively refute his (and that of
 many others) writings on the Danite question.

 Philastus Hurlbut
 John C. Bennett
 William Law
 Wilson Law
 Thomas B. Marsh
 Orson Hyde
 Sampson Avard
 Hans B. Freece
 Charles Ivins
 Charles Foster
 Robert Foster
 Francis Higbee
 Chauncey Higbee
 J. H. Beadle
 William "Wild Bill" Hickman
 Warren Parrish
 W.W. Phelps
 David Whitmer
 William McLellin
 Burr Riggs

For those new to ARM, this is the second time Glenn has thrown out this list of
names.  I asked him previously to provide us with specific information as to
how these names relate to the origins of the Mormon Danite band, or how those
names refute the documentation I provided on the subject.  He has not done so.
 Instead, what Glenn is doing here is typical Mormon apologetic tactics:   He
thinks that by simply throwing out a list of characters from the annals of
Mormon history---some of whom abandoned Mormonism and exposed its secret,
criminal activities---that that will somehow, magically make readers believe he
knows what he is talking about.  Unfortunately, what Glenn doesn't realize is
that his tactic works only on dull-minded TBMs (two of whom have responded to
this thread with their typical ignorant comments).  But it doesn't work on
rational, independent thinkers.

Also, Glenn doesn't tell us---because he doesn't know---that the testimonies of
those dissident Mormons who told of Danite activities in Missouri in 1838 were
corroborated by other Mormons who remained active and faithful in the church.
For instance, Glenn includes Burr Riggs in his magic list; but Glenn has no
clue that Riggs' testimony of events is identical on many points to that of W.
W. Phelps, who remained a Mormon, and is a highly regarded figure in Mormon
history.  Glenn also doesn't list David Whitmer or John Whitmer (two of the
"Book of Mormon witnesses"), who also recounted the activities of the Missouri
Danite band; nor does Glenn list Bishop John Corrill, Reed Peck, George M.
Hinkle, Ebenezer Robinson, John D. Lee, or John Cleminson, all of whom figured
prominently in the early days of the Danite band, and who provided rich
testimony about Danite activities which led to the Mormons' expulsion from
Missouri.

Amusingly, Glenn includes Philastus Hurlbut in his magic list; however, Glenn
is too ignorant to understand that Hurlbut joined and left the Mormonite
movement in 1833, five years before the Danite band was even instituted.
Hurlbut knew nothing about the Danites, and he wrote nothing about the Danites.
 Glenn just included Hurlbut in his list because he thought he could fool some
dull-minded readers into believing Hurlbut had some relevance to the subject.

In my original series of posts to Glenn on the MMM, I documented the facts
surrounding the founding of the Danite band, including Smith's and Rigdon's
parts in it.  Since Glenn has provided nothing in rebuttal to contradict my
documentation, I'll merely re-post it below for new readers. Also, as Glenn has
included Thomas B. Marsh in his magical list of names---I recently wrote some
material on Marsh's activities in Missouri, which I will re-post in a separate
post entitled "Tom Marsh and the milk strippings."

Origin of the Danites

The secret teachings and practices that ultimately caused the MMM were
instituted by Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon in Missouri in 1838.  They started
the Danite band, which called for vengeance against dissenters and "Gentiles";
that same period also brought the Mormon culture of "theocratic ethics," which
held that it was proper for Mormons to "consecrate" (steal) goods from
"Gentiles".   Those practices were the main causes of the Mormons being driven
from Missouri and Illinois.  The Mormon depradations against the Aiken and
Fancher parties were merely a repetition of those earlier practices.

Nonsense.  I've written dozens of posts to ARM documenting the facts.  The
possibility that you haven't read them, or that you are in intellectual denial
of them, does not make them "assertions without documentation."

Nonsense.  I have researched and posted documented the FACTS from numerous
historians, including LDS ones.

"Danites". That is an entirely different subject and deserves a better
treatment
 than we have the space for.

To the contrary, the institution of the Mormon "Danites", and their activities,
is not a different subject from the MMM, but instead, the MMM was the natural
product of the Danite organization.  The causes for the MMM cannot be
understood without having a working knowledge of the "Danites," and their
origin, activities, and leadership.  

I'll assume that you, like most other brainwashed Mormons on ARM, believe that
the "Danites" were an unauthorized band, founded and led by Sampson Avard; and
that as soon as Joseph Smith discovered that they were committing crimes, he
ordered them to stop, and he excommunicated Avard.  That is the line of lies
that has been spread by Mormon apologists since 1838, beginning with Smith
himself.  Some time ago, I wrote of the origin of the "Danites":

To understand the root causes of the MMM, one must examine LDS teachings and
policies that were enacted in 1838, 19 years before the massacre.  In the
spring of 1838, LDS leaders Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon, having been run out
of Ohio because of the failure of their 'Anti-Banking Safety Society' and their
'United Order' communitarian system, escaped to the only other significant
group of Mormons, in western Missouri.  Upon arriving, they immediately
attempted to institute a new version of a communistic system among their
Missouri disciples.  Many of those disciples had been settled in Clay County,
after having been driven from Jackson County in 1834, and had bought land and
begun farms.  Several of them, including leaders such as David Whitmer, W. W.
Phelps, John Whitmer (who were the Missouri stake presidency), Oliver Cowdery,
Lyman Johnson and others, were not interested in joining another communitarian
plan, perceiving that it would produce the same failures and financial disaster
that plagued the Kirtland attempt.  Smith and Rigdon r