MORMON CHASING THE DEAD....
Sword of Laban
By Dan Waddell
The Independent
Monday, 24 August 2009
Ask most lay people what they know about the Mormon Church, or the
Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints to give them their
official title, and the chances are the first subject they will
mention is polygamy, despite the practice of taking more than one wife
being officially renounced around 120 years ago.
They might also mention the odd famous Mormon, like The Osmond family,
or The Killers, whose image seems to belie a religion that forbids
alcohol and caffeine. Then there’s Mitt Romney, failed challenger to
Senator John McCain for the Republican presidential nomination in
2008, and whose Mormon faith was believed to have hampered his cause.
The occasional celebrity aside, it’s staggering to think how little we
know about what is the fastest growing church on the planet, with a
global membership of more than ten million followers. The church
itself does little to dispel the air of secrecy that surrounds it,
quietly going about its professed business of saving souls.
What few people know is that the Latter-Day Saints aren’t only
interested in the living - they also seek to recruit the dead. Even
fewer know that this belief, a church doctrine no less, has fuelled
the present genealogical boom, which has seen unprecedented numbers of
us casting back through time in search of our family roots.
The Mormons are morally obligated to track down as many of their
ancestors as possible and convert them to their faith vicariously in a
temple ceremony, a ritual they know as proxy baptism but is also known
as Baptising the Dead.
To help their members in their ancestral quests, the church has spent
millions of dollars sending teams of men and women across the world to
access as many records as possible, from behind the veil of communist
China to the remote islands of the Pacific, as well as being granted
access to the archives of other churches and faiths. Never in the
history of organized religion has a doctrinal belief produced such an
ambitious, elaborate and expensive undertaking
The result of this mass pursuit is the closest we will get to a
catalogue of the dead; billions of birth, death, marriage, baptism and
burial records, stretching back hundreds of years, making it the most
exhaustive and complete archive extant. Its official name is the
International Genealogical Index and the good news for genealogists is
that it’s all available online, regardless of one’s faith, and it’s
all free. Millions of us are able to go to www.familysearch.org, type
in a name and kickstart our search, or help locate that elusive
missing ancestor.
Seeing the success of the IGI, rival websites have sprung up, seeking
to challenge its superiority, but few of them are free at the point of
use, and few of them have the same worldwide reach. However, their
presence means that an unprecedented amount of records and indexes are
available at the click of a button. Never has it been so easy to find
out so much about our ancestry from the comfort of our home, and for
that we have to thank the Mormons and their belief in claiming the
dead.
The practice is not without controversy. Most of us are happy to make
use of the genealogical resources provided by the LDS church while
being unaware about their real purpose. Yet when people of other
faiths are made aware that these records may be used to convert their
ancestors to Mormonism by proxy baptism, the response is different.
The religious right in the US are hardly President Obama’s natural
supporters, but when it was revealed last year that his deceased
mother had been converted by proxy baptism, they rose in anger,
seizing the chance to denounce an organization they see as no better
than a cult.
Closer to home, two Irish Catholic bishops wrote to the national
library in Dublin recently registering their disquiet that official
records were being handed to Mormon researchers and subsequently
"misused", meaning that dead Catholics were being converted to
Mormonism.
Jewish groups have been even more vociferous in their condemnation.
Controversy first reared when it was discovered that many Holocaust
victims had received proxy baptisms. As a consequence, the LDS church,
somewhat chastened by the row, agreed to remove the name of the
baptized victims from their records and agreed to refrain from
baptizing deceased Jews unless they were direct ancestors of LDS
members.
The public response from the LDS to most criticism of is one of quiet
bewilderment. They quote bible scripture to justify proxy baptism, and
point out they believe that in the afterlife people have the free will
to accept or reject the church’s approach.
"We believe that baptism by immersion is an earthly ordinance that
can’t be performed after this life so it is necessary to accomplish
this ordinance for those who never had the opportunity while in
mortality," a spokesman for the LDS church said. "If one of my
posterity desired to baptise me a Catholic or Baptist after my death,
I would view their action as a true act of love and devotion. Why
would I take any offense?"
Woody Brison
Laban" <mormoni...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Chasing the dead: genealogy and the art of recruitment
>
> By Dan Waddell
> The Independent
> Monday, 24 August 2009
>
> Ask most lay people what they know about the Mormon Church, or the
> Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints to give them their
> official title,
"The Mormon Church" is just a title that ignorant people give
it. Like ignorant reporters.
>... and the chances are the first subject they will
> mention is polygamy, despite the practice of taking more than one wife
> being officially renounced around 120 years ago.
So why would this be the first thing they'd think of then?
Ignorant reporters, again! Unaware of their own process -
hammering and hammering on a dead issue for over a hundred
years. Name one hate campaign in history that's gone on
longer, with less reason.
> They might also mention the odd famous Mormon, like The Osmond family,
> or The Killers, whose image seems to belie a religion that forbids
> alcohol and caffeine.
Had to look that one up. Now that I know who the Killers
are, I don't see any connection between them and the LDS.
Is there some? Are they bad people? I miss a lot not watching
TV, but then again I'm not convinced it's a valuable anything
that I miss.
>... Then there’s Mitt Romney, failed challenger to
> Senator John McCain for the Republican presidential nomination in
> 2008, and whose Mormon faith was believed to have hampered his cause.
And who made sure that happened? Ignorant reporters.
> The occasional celebrity aside, it’s staggering to think how little we
> know about what is the fastest growing church on the planet, with a
> global membership of more than ten million followers. The church
> itself does little to dispel the air of secrecy that surrounds it,
> quietly going about its professed business of saving souls.
More ignorant reporting.
The Church maintains a force of some 50,000 full time
missionaries. There's probably a pair in your town. Just
stop them and ask for information on the Church. They will
be happy to inform you. That is almost their entire mission.
Then we have a website, and there are books, many many books,
some published by the Church, some by members of the Church,
all about the Church, her history, her doctrines, her culture.
Further, we have meetinghouses everywhere, and anyone and
everyone is INVITED to come in and observe, enjoy, learn.
We run classes so that people can learn about our history
and our faith.
If someone (like a reporter) is ignorant on this, whose fault?
Is it really true that
"The church itself does little to dispel the air of secrecy
that surrounds it..."
Is there actually ANY air of secrecy about the Church?
What is an AIR of secrecy ?
At some point it ceases to be Ignorant reporting and becomes
Creative reporting doesn't it.
> What few people know is that the Latter-Day Saints aren’t only
> interested in the living - they also seek to recruit the dead.
Few people? We've been telling everyone this for about 170
years now.
>... Even
> fewer know that this belief, a church doctrine no less, has fuelled
> the present genealogical boom, which has seen unprecedented numbers of
> us casting back through time in search of our family roots.
Now this is a good one. Doctrine secretly held by the LDS
has caused millions of people who know nothing about the
Church (due to its air of secrecy) to have gone out and, in
response to those secret brain waves (because they didn't
wear their tinfoil helmets) have researched their ancestors,
so that as a topic of human study, genealogy now accounts
for the largest single topic in books and no. 2 on the
internet.
> The Mormons are morally obligated to track down as many of their
> ancestors as possible and convert them to their faith vicariously in a
> temple ceremony, a ritual they know as proxy baptism but is also known
> as Baptising the Dead.
We do not convert our ancestors to our faith, via temple
ceremonies, or by any other method. If they get converted
it's because they themselves decide to. We provide the
opportunity that they can be Latter-day Saints in the next
world, should they so choose. If they choose not, our work
does absolutely nothing for them, to them, or with them.
> To help their members in their ancestral quests, the church has spent
> millions of dollars sending teams of men and women across the world to
> access as many records as possible, from behind the veil of communist
> China to the remote islands of the Pacific, as well as being granted
> access to the archives of other churches and faiths. Never in the
> history of organized religion has a doctrinal belief produced such an
> ambitious, elaborate and expensive undertaking
Left out useful, fun, friendship-making, border-lowering,
cross-culture-communicating, fascinating, self-esteem-building,
educational, thrilling, fulfilling, enlightening, moving, and
stabilizing.
> The result of this mass pursuit is the closest we will get to a
> catalogue of the dead; billions of birth, death, marriage, baptism and
> burial records, stretching back hundreds of years, making it the most
> exhaustive and complete archive extant. Its official name is the
> International Genealogical Index and the good news for genealogists is
> that it’s all available online, regardless of one’s faith, and it’s
> all free. Millions of us are able to go towww.familysearch.org, type
> in a name and kickstart our search, or help locate that elusive
> missing ancestor.
Hmmm, that earlier "air of secrecy" claim seems to be slipping.
> Seeing the success of the IGI, rival websites have sprung up, seeking
> to challenge its superiority, but few of them are free at the point of
> use, and few of them have the same worldwide reach. However, their
> presence means that an unprecedented amount of records and indexes are
> available at the click of a button. Never has it been so easy to find
> out so much about our ancestry from the comfort of our home, and for
> that we have to thank the Mormons and their belief in claiming the
> dead.
You are welcome.
> The practice is not without controversy. Most of us are happy to make
> use of the genealogical resources provided by the LDS church while
> being unaware about their real purpose. Yet when people of other
> faiths are made aware that these records may be used to convert their
> ancestors to Mormonism by proxy baptism, the response is different.
In my experience, it has not been different. It has been
almost universally indifferent. Most people do not have a
conscious desire to investigate the Church, and when they
find that the Church has done Temple ceremonies for one of
their ancestors (who was probably also the ancestor of some
LDS person) the reaction continues to be indifference.
When they find out that the Temple ceremony must be ratified
by the dead person, this does not increase, but only
decreases, their agitation.
The only time that people get very agitated about it is
when Ignorant Reporters get the facts wrong, do Creative
Reporting, and in general continue the 19 decades of
persecution of the "Mormons".
Was there ever anything more pathetic? To harrass an innocent
people over and over and over, for no reason at all?
> The religious right in the US are hardly President Obama’s natural
> supporters, but when it was revealed last year that his deceased
> mother had been converted by proxy baptism, they rose in anger,
> seizing the chance to denounce an organization they see as no better
> than a cult.
And who fomented this?
Did a lot of people really denounce our organization?
Is our Ignorant Reporter even aware that our organization
did not do this, but that it was done by some individual
(probably as a prank) and that we reversed the item on
simple request?
In other words, is there any substance to this accusation
at all?
Answers: 1) Ignorant people 2) No 3) Don't be too sure
4) No.
> Closer to home, two Irish Catholic bishops wrote to the national
> library in Dublin recently registering their disquiet that official
> records were being handed to Mormon researchers and subsequently
> "misused", meaning that dead Catholics were being converted to
> Mormonism.
Again, if any dead Catholics are being converted to
Mormonism, it is because they themselves chose to do so. All
we do is say certain prayers and ceremonies over their names.
How can that possibly harm them? If the religion is real, it
won't harm them, it will help them. If the religion is bogus,
it won't do anything. So why the (alleged) disquiet?
> Jewish groups have been even more vociferous in their condemnation.
> Controversy first reared when it was discovered that many Holocaust
> victims had received proxy baptisms. As a consequence, the LDS church,
> somewhat chastened by the row, agreed to remove the name of the
> baptized victims from their records and agreed to refrain from
> baptizing deceased Jews unless they were direct ancestors of LDS
> members.
Sounds like a pretty reasonable behavior. Can you name any
group in all the world that has ever been so consistently
agreeable, so thoroughly courteous, so nice about everything?
> The public response from the LDS to most criticism of is one of quiet
> bewilderment.
Excellent. Well said. This has been pretty much our reaction
to the hate campaign all along.
>... They quote bible scripture to justify proxy baptism,
Quite so. Why don't we quote it here?
1 Corinthians 15:29 (my translation) Otherwise what will
they accomplish, those being baptized on behalf of the
dead, if the dead are not awakened? Why then are they
baptized for them?
Paul wrote this to the Corinthian Christians, so both he and
they knew the doctrine of baptism for the dead.
>... and
> point out they believe that in the afterlife people have the free will
> to accept or reject the church’s approach.
Ah. So this reporter IS well aware of this little point.
> "We believe that baptism by immersion is an earthly ordinance that
> can’t be performed after this life so it is necessary to accomplish
> this ordinance for those who never had the opportunity while in
> mortality," a spokesman for the LDS church said. "If one of my
> posterity desired to baptise me a Catholic or Baptist after my death,
> I would view their action as a true act of love and devotion. Why
> would I take any offense?"
Beautifully put. I retract all my previous criticism of this
reporter, except to ask, why did he put the generous
admissions only at the end of the article, where few would
read them, and the more aggressive accusatory material toward
the front?
Wood
ANTI-MORMON
wrote:
> On Aug 29, posting for pay and calling himself "Sword of
Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the
right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the
city.
But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers
and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie. Revelation
22:14-15.
The above two verses covers all 19th, 20th, and apparently 21st
century Mormons since the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
have turned their members into practicing liars.
http://www.truthandgrace.com/Mormon.htm
> Ah. So ...
>
> read more »
Woody Brison
"ANTI-MORMON", blew away all pretense at civil discussion
and went right the name calling:
> ... Revelation
> 22:14-15.
>
> The above two verses covers all 19th, 20th, and apparently 21st
> century Mormons since the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
> have turned their members into practicing liars.
Very strange accusation, Lance. Any evidence for this strange
idea? Our religion forbids lying. Does yours?
I realize you quoted the Bible, but realize also that you
demonstrate that you do not live it or believe it.
Wood
Gene Fuller
"Woody Brison" <woody....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:740ef5af-8a71-4239...@d9g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
Thanks Wood. I have the various aliases such as this blocked again now, so
only see those posts as others paste them in, or I would not have the
opportunity to contribute to this. Not that I find it a great sacrifice to
give up such privileges in return for the peace of not having to try to
figure out if there is any point to his posts.
However, here is a paraphrase of Revelation 22:14-15
14-15"How blessed are those who wash their robes! The Tree of Life is theirs
for good, and they'll walk through the gates to the City. But outside for
good are the filthy curs: sorcerers, fornicators, murderers, idolaters-all
who love and live lies.
The part before the words "But outside ''' describe those who understand and
follow the Gospel of Jesus Christ as it has been at any time that it was
truly on the earth, including those followers of Jesus Christ who are
members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The latter part
of the passage includes those who do not understand and follow the Gospel of
Jesus Christ, until and unless they repent, and that also includes so
described even some who are nominally members of the organizaton on earth
known as The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Actually in KJV, the two sets of folks are separated by the versification
and "Anti-Mormon" has perhaps unknowingly reveaed the truth that all persons
living now, ever having lived, or yet to live on the earth, are in one of
the two sets described in the two verses.
Just for convenience, here is the same passage in KJV.
14Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to
the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and
idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Gene