CAUTION CONE DISPENSER (Language Log)

[Adam Funk]

http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=4000

(Free your cones, & your ass will follow....)


--
XML is like violence: if it doesn't solve the problem,
use more.

[Adam Funk]

On 2012-06-05, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> Do you know how to solve problems with XML? MSWord's Bibliography Tool
> contains several significant errors and needs to be tweaked.

Sorry, I can't help. I only use word processors for envelopes &
labels or under duress for anything else.


> What an inane series of comments.
>
> And don't they understand that those things are called "warning cones"?

Ah, but they are not normally (?) called "caution cones".


--
There's a statute of limitations with the law, but not with
your wife. [Ray Magliozzi, Car Talk 2011-36]

[pauljk]

"Adam Funk" <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote in message
news:9of6a9x...@news.ducksburg.com...

> On 2012-06-05, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
>> On Jun 5, 4:44 pm, Adam Funk <a24...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=4000
>>>
>>> (Free your cones, & your ass will follow....)
>>>
>>> --
>>> XML is like violence: if it doesn't solve the problem,
>>> use more.
>>
>> Do you know how to solve problems with XML? MSWord's Bibliography Tool
>> contains several significant errors and needs to be tweaked.
>
> Sorry, I can't help. I only use word processors for envelopes &
> labels or under duress for anything else.
>
>
>> What an inane series of comments.
>>
>> And don't they understand that those things are called "warning cones"?
>
> Ah, but they are not normally (?) called "caution cones".

Traffic cones, construction cones, road cones, road work cones, highway cones,
no parking cones, and similar.

AFAICT, the most often used term is the generic one, "traffic cones".
AFAICT, they usually proscribe/direct, rather than warn or caution.

pjk

[benl...@ihug.co.nz]

Agreed. And "traffic cone" was the first term that came to my mind.
(I think Auckland should re-brand itself "City of Cones", to celebrate
the millions of the things that line our streets, along with those
older volcanic ones.)
However you have to admit they are also used indoors, e.g. to keep
people off a slippery patch of floor.
But hey! it's time for a bit of old-style Google research...
"warning cones" -- 66,000
"caution cones" -- 82,000
"traffic cones" -- 3.9 million -- and that's what brings up the
pictures and the Wikipedia article. Which says "also called traffic
pylons, road cones, highway cones, highway products, safety cones,
construction cones".

[benl...@ihug.co.nz]

sorry, 85,000

> "traffic cones" -- 3.9 million -- and that's what brings up the
> pictures and the Wikipedia article. Which says "also called traffic
> pylons, road cones, highway cones, highway products, safety cones,
> construction cones".

The "popular culture" section also mentions the use of "road cone" as
a term for a road construction worker who doesn't do much work. And
the fact that cones are often stolen for various purposes. One
appeared a while ago for several months, neatly perched on top of a
20m high conifer (appropriately) alongside the Newmarket Viaduct. To
this day I'm not sure how they got it up there. The tree did not look
particularly climbable.

[Peter T. Daniels]

However, when they are used indoors to warn about something, they're
hardly traffic cones. Most of those millions of hits (or the few
thousand actual attestations that underlie the figure) presumably
refer to cones in their basic, unmarked use of guiding traffic.

These days, the signs used to temporarily mark wet floors (for
instance) are typically not cones, but easel-like contraptions, hinged
at the top, of lightweight plastic. Are they not simply "warning
signs" (or, in parts of the world where "caution" is used instead of
"warning," "caution signs")?

> The "popular culture" section also mentions the use of "road cone" as
> a term for a road construction worker who doesn't do much work. And
> the fact that cones are often stolen for various purposes. One
> appeared a while ago for several months, neatly perched on top of a
> 20m high conifer (appropriately) alongside the Newmarket Viaduct. To
> this day I'm not sure how they got it up there. The tree did not look

> particularly climbable.-

There's also "speed bump" for a person lying in the road.

I suppose there are other words for "speed bump" in other countries.
In some states, actually, they're called "speed humps," which seems
rather odd.

[benl...@ihug.co.nz]

I don't know of any special name for the easel-like things, except
that they would be called "sandwich boards" if they were outside a
café or something.

I doubt if there's any part of the world where "caution" would replace
"warning" -- unless you mean in the particular expression we are
discussing. And we don't know the geographical provenience of the
photos linked to at the start of this thread. In fact in the second
photo you can see the things being referred to as "caution cones" and
"safety cones" by two different signs at the same site.

> > The "popular culture" section also mentions the use of "road cone" as
> > a term for a road construction worker who doesn't do much work. And
> > the fact that cones are often stolen for various purposes. One
> > appeared a while ago for several months, neatly perched on top of a
> > 20m high conifer (appropriately) alongside the Newmarket Viaduct. To
> > this day I'm not sure how they got it up there. The tree did not look
> > particularly climbable.-
>
> There's also "speed bump" for a person lying in the road.
>
> I suppose there are other words for "speed bump" in other countries.
> In some states, actually, they're called "speed humps," which seems
> rather odd.

Most often called "judder bars" here, though that suggests the very
small ones that are sometimes laid in sets and do induce a juddering
effect. "Speed humps" seems appropriate for some of the very wide kind
that have appeared in our area in recent years -- more like going over
a small hill than hitting an obstruction.

[DKleinecke]

Most speed bumps around here are laid across the road perpendicular to
the road. But some sadists make them diagonal. Diagonal speed bumps
are VERY effective in making you slow down.

[DKleinecke]

Locally the word pylon is used for the concrete bumpers in parking
areas. They are about six by six inches across and four feet long.
There don't seem to be a standard size and any concrete contractor can
make them themselves.

In my opinion they are a safety hazard - very easy to trip over.

[Glenn Knickerbocker]

On 6/5/2012 5:08 PM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> And don't they understand that those things are called "warning cones"?

Since the cones made to fit that dispenser have the word "CAUTION"
inscribed on them, I'm not sure I would understand such a thing.

ŹR

[Peter T. Daniels]

> are VERY effective in making you slow down.-

The Korean shopping mall up in Ridgefield, NJ, where I have patronized
the Boston Market (which is no longer Korean-staffed) has a number of
them at odd angles, which don't correspond particularly well to either
the curves or the straightaways in the rather convoluted parking lot.
it's quite a roller coaster.

In Secaucus (which is stressed on the first syllable!), the pedestrian
crosswalks are in brick contoured to serve as speed bumps.

[David DeLaney]

benl...@ihug.co.nz <benl...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
>One appeared a while ago for several months, neatly perched on top of a
>20m high conifer (appropriately) alongside the Newmarket Viaduct. To
>this day I'm not sure how they got it up there. The tree did not look
>particularly climbable.

That's easy; time machine, and set the cone gently on top of the 1.5' high
treeling. Then return.

Dave "what's wrong with this picture?" DeLaney
--
\/David DeLaney posting from d...@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

[Dr. HotSalt]

On recently mopped convenience store floors in the American
southwest they typically also say "Cuidado, El Piso Mojado".

> > The "popular culture" section also mentions the use of "road cone" as
> > a term for a road construction worker who doesn't do much work. And
> > the fact that cones are often stolen for various purposes. One
> > appeared a while ago for several months, neatly perched on top of a
> > 20m high conifer (appropriately) alongside the Newmarket Viaduct. To
> > this day I'm not sure how they got it up there. The tree did not look
> > particularly climbable.-

It's a Hmas miracle!

(*An* Hmas miracle?)

> There's also "speed bump" for a person lying in the road.
>
> I suppose there are other words for "speed bump" in other countries.
> In some states, actually, they're called "speed humps," which seems
> rather odd.

"Sleeping policemen".


Dr. HotSalt

[pauljk]

<benl...@ihug.co.nz> wrote in message
news:31ceac69-f39f-4a45...@st3g2000pbc.googlegroups.com...

Interestingly enough the same with singular "cone" gives
somewhat different results. However the "traffic cones" still have it.

>> "traffic cones" -- 3.9 million -- and that's what brings up the
>> pictures and the Wikipedia article. Which says "also called traffic
>> pylons, road cones, highway cones, highway products, safety cones,
>> construction cones".
>
> The "popular culture" section also mentions the use of "road cone" as
> a term for a road construction worker who doesn't do much work. And
> the fact that cones are often stolen for various purposes. One
> appeared a while ago for several months, neatly perched on top of a
> 20m high conifer (appropriately) alongside the Newmarket Viaduct. To
> this day I'm not sure how they got it up there. The tree did not look
> particularly climbable.

Firemen with extension ladder and a sense of humour?

pjk

[pauljk]

"Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:71e87f83-1a25-4db4...@v33g2000yqv.googlegroups.com...

> On Jun 7, 5:47 pm, "benli...@ihug.co.nz" <benli...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:

[...]

>
> However, when they are used indoors to warn about something, they're
> hardly traffic cones. Most of those millions of hits (or the few
> thousand actual attestations that underlie the figure) presumably
> refer to cones in their basic, unmarked use of guiding traffic.
>
> These days, the signs used to temporarily mark wet floors (for
> instance) are typically not cones, but easel-like contraptions, hinged
> at the top, of lightweight plastic. Are they not simply "warning
> signs" (or, in parts of the world where "caution" is used instead of
> "warning," "caution signs")?
>
>> The "popular culture" section also mentions the use of "road cone" as
>> a term for a road construction worker who doesn't do much work. And
>> the fact that cones are often stolen for various purposes. One
>> appeared a while ago for several months, neatly perched on top of a
>> 20m high conifer (appropriately) alongside the Newmarket Viaduct. To
>> this day I'm not sure how they got it up there. The tree did not look
>> particularly climbable.-
>
> There's also "speed bump" for a person lying in the road.
>
> I suppose there are other words for "speed bump" in other countries.
> In some states, actually, they're called "speed humps," which seems
> rather odd.

Unflattering sexual inference?

pjk

[benl...@ihug.co.nz]

On Jun 8, 9:19 pm, "pauljk" <paul.kr...@xtra.co.nz> wrote:
> "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote in messagenews:71e87f83-1a25-4db4...@v33g2000yqv.googlegroups.com...

Inevitable outcome of speed dating?

[Adam Funk]

On 2012-06-08, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> The Korean shopping mall up in Ridgefield, NJ, where I have patronized
> the Boston Market (which is no longer Korean-staffed) has a number of
> them at odd angles, which don't correspond particularly well to either
> the curves or the straightaways in the rather convoluted parking lot.
> it's quite a roller coaster.

Just out of curiosity, what makes a shopping mall in NJ "Korean"
(given that Boston Market doesn't sound to me like a particularly
Korean shop)?

> In Secaucus (which is stressed on the first syllable!), the pedestrian
> crosswalks are in brick contoured to serve as speed bumps.

Bumpass, VA
Penistone, Yorkshire


--
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail?

[Adam Funk]

On 2012-06-08, pauljk wrote:

> "Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:71e87f83-1a25-4db4...@v33g2000yqv.googlegroups.com...

>> I suppose there are other words for "speed bump" in other countries.
>> In some states, actually, they're called "speed humps," which seems
>> rather odd.
>
> Unflattering sexual inference?

Sign in my area: "HUMPED ZEBRA CROSSING".


--
Classical Greek lent itself to the promulgation of a rich culture,
indeed, to Western civilization. Computer languages bring us
doorbells that chime with thirty-two tunes, alt.sex.bestiality, and
Tetris clones. (Stoll 1995)

[Adam Funk]

On 2012-06-08, Glenn Knickerbocker wrote:

> On 6/7/2012 6:26 PM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>> Adam laid claim to the field of XML in his .sig.
>
> I'd be careful with statements like that. His .sig equally laid claim
> to the field of violence, and he can probably find where you live.


Just to be clear, I'm opposed to violence. I'm wishy-washy on XML.


--
But the government always tries to coax well-known writers into the
Establishment; it makes them feel educated. [Robert Graves]

[Adam Funk]

On 2012-06-08, tony cooper wrote:

> On Thu, 7 Jun 2012 20:02:55 -0700 (PDT), "benl...@ihug.co.nz"
><benl...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:

>>The human-sandwich boards are familiar to me from popular culture, and
>>can still occasionally be seen around here (always striking me as
>>intrinsically a bit retro), with the carriers often handing out paper
>>advertising some special deal the advertiser wants you to know about.
>>However, the stationary, free-standing easel-like advertising boards
>>which are a common feature in front of various retail establishments
>>in NZ cities are, in fact, referred to, around here, as "sandwich
>>boards". (I hope Paul will back me up on this.) Some people don't like
>>them obstructing the footpath (sidewalk), and from time to time there
>>are calls for them to be banned, but without success as far as I'm
>>aware.
>
> I see them frequently outside of restaurants and bars used to announce
> the daily specials or entertainment. I can think of no other term
> than "sandwich board" for them. Here's one I photographed a week or
> so ago:
> http://tonycooper.smugmug.com/photos/i-b64Srwb/0/L/i-b64Srwb-L.jpg
>
>
> While I have probably seen the sandwich boards Peter describes with a
> person inside, I don't recall seeing one for years. The current thing
> is to have a sign held up by a person and for that person to twirl or
> spin the sign in order for it to be more noticeable to passing
> motorists. Some of the sign holders put on quite a show.


I'm not sure. I'd only use "sandwich board" to describe the kind
sandwiched around a person. I think I'd describe i-b64Srwb-L as a
"tent sign" or maybe "tent board". Somewhat amusingly, a Google image
search for 'tent sign' comes up with a mixture of what we're talking
about & signs for camping.



--
It is probable that television drama of high caliber and produced by
first-rate artists will materially raise the level of dramatic taste
of the nation. (David Sarnoff, CEO of RCA, 1939; in Stoll 1995)

[Jerry Friedman]

=AmE "rumble strip" for a whole set.

> > "Speed humps" seems appropriate for some of the very wide kind
> > that have appeared in our area in recent years -- more like going over
> > a small hill than hitting an obstruction.

That's how it's used here, too.

> Most speed bumps around here are laid across the road perpendicular to
> the road.  But some sadists make them diagonal.  Diagonal speed bumps
> are VERY effective in making you slow down.

Possibly they should try that here in New Mexico. To drive over a
speed bump in a lowrider, you go over it diagonally, one wheel at a
time (and very slowly). Thus a diagonal speed bump would be highly
convenient for the declining population of lowrider drivers.

Time for a dialect comparison? When the undercarriage of my car
touches the road, I say I "bottomed out". Some people here say they
"scraped". Comments?

--
Jerry Friedman

[Skitt]

Jerry Friedman wrote:

> DKleinecke wrote:

>> Most speed bumps around here are laid across the road perpendicular to
>> the road. But some sadists make them diagonal. Diagonal speed bumps
>> are VERY effective in making you slow down.
>
> Possibly they should try that here in New Mexico. To drive over a
> speed bump in a lowrider, you go over it diagonally, one wheel at a
> time (and very slowly). Thus a diagonal speed bump would be highly
> convenient for the declining population of lowrider drivers.

I had to be extremely careful when entering driveways from the street
when I was driving my 1959 Austin-Healey 100-6. Those things had very
low ground clearance.

http://home.comcast.net/~skitt99/59healey.jpg
--
Skitt (SF Bay Area)
http://come.to/skitt

[Eb Oesch]

WARNING:

1. Do not touch the danger cone.
2. Do not remove the caution cone from atop the danger cone.
3. Do not remove this sign.

[R H Draney]

Adam Funk filted:

>
>I'm not sure. I'd only use "sandwich board" to describe the kind
>sandwiched around a person. I think I'd describe i-b64Srwb-L as a
>"tent sign" or maybe "tent board". Somewhat amusingly, a Google image
>search for 'tent sign' comes up with a mixture of what we're talking
>about & signs for camping.

If Areff were here, I'm sure he could tell us whether a given sign is or is not
a sandwich board....r


--
Me? Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.

[R H Draney]

Adam Funk filted:

>
>On 2012-06-08, pauljk wrote:
>
>> "Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>> news:71e87f83-1a25-4db4...@v33g2000yqv.googlegroups.com...
>
>>> I suppose there are other words for "speed bump" in other countries.
>>> In some states, actually, they're called "speed humps," which seems
>>> rather odd.
>>
>> Unflattering sexual inference?
>
>
>Sign in my area: "HUMPED ZEBRA CROSSING".

Sign in any area with trains:

http://www.trainsarefun.com/signs/ex-UP-MOW-passcar-OERM.jpg

[Mike L]

British wagons are subtler: they say "Not to be hump shunted."

--
Mike.

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

"Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> writes:

> I suppose there are other words for "speed bump" in other countries.
> In some states, actually, they're called "speed humps," which seems
> rather odd.

In California, those are different animals. "Speed bumps" are
designed so that in order to not get jolted when passing over them,
you need to slow down before doing so. You typically find them in
parking lots. "Speed humps", on the other hand are designed so that
if you are traveling at the speed limit, you can pass comfortably over
them without using your brake, but if you're going much faster, you'll
get a nasty bounce and almost certainly be going less than the speed
limit when you come down.

We have speed humps on one of the streets near my house, with signs
announcing the speed (25 mph) they're designed for. For those of us
who use that street a lot, it's always frustrating driving behind
somebody who feels the need to treat them like speed bumps and brake
to a crawl before each one.

--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |English is about as pure as a
SF Bay Area (1982-) |cribhouse whore. We don't just
Chicago (1964-1982) |borrow words; on occasion, English
|has pursued other languages down
evan.kir...@gmail.com |alleyways to beat them unconscious
|and rifle their pockets for new
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ |vocabulary.
| --James D. Nicoll

[Adam Funk]

On 2012-06-08, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> On Jun 7, 11:36 pm, tony cooper <tony.cooper...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 7 Jun 2012 19:18:46 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
>>
>> <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>> >"Judder"? That's a new one.
>>
>> I keep forgetting that linguists are not required to have extended
>> vocabularies.  Thank you for reminding me.
>
> Oh, is that a word popular in Orlando?


I think the word is known in many dialects of English, just not yours.


--
Civilization is a race between catastrophe and education.
[H G Wells]

[Adam Funk]

On 2012-06-08, Mike L wrote:

> On 8 Jun 2012 12:26:46 -0700, R H Draney <dado...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>
>>Adam Funk filted:

>>>Sign in my area: "HUMPED ZEBRA CROSSING".
>>
>>Sign in any area with trains:
>>
>> http://www.trainsarefun.com/signs/ex-UP-MOW-passcar-OERM.jpg
>>
> British wagons are subtler: they say "Not to be hump shunted."

Thanks! That's the sign I was trying to recall.


--
The kid's a hot prospect. He's got a good head for merchandising, an
agent who can take you downtown and one of the best urine samples I've
seen in a long time. [Dead Kennedys t-shirt]

[David Dyer-Bennet]

Evan Kirshenbaum <evan.kir...@gmail.com> writes:

> "Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> writes:
>
>> I suppose there are other words for "speed bump" in other countries.
>> In some states, actually, they're called "speed humps," which seems
>> rather odd.
>
> In California, those are different animals. "Speed bumps" are
> designed so that in order to not get jolted when passing over them,
> you need to slow down before doing so. You typically find them in
> parking lots. "Speed humps", on the other hand are designed so that
> if you are traveling at the speed limit, you can pass comfortably over
> them without using your brake, but if you're going much faster, you'll
> get a nasty bounce and almost certainly be going less than the speed
> limit when you come down.
>
> We have speed humps on one of the streets near my house, with signs
> announcing the speed (25 mph) they're designed for. For those of us
> who use that street a lot, it's always frustrating driving behind
> somebody who feels the need to treat them like speed bumps and brake
> to a crawl before each one.

Basically, when people fuck up their streets deliberately, I do
everything in my power to express my displeasure. Making the street
less useful is one of the basic tactics. I try to squeal my tires going
around the corners in "tank trap" neighborhoods, too.
--
David Dyer-Bennet, dd...@dd-b.net; http://dd-b.net/
Snapshots: http://dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/
Photos: http://dd-b.net/photography/gallery/
Dragaera: http://dragaera.info

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net> writes:

> Evan Kirshenbaum <evan.kir...@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> "Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> writes:
>>
>>> I suppose there are other words for "speed bump" in other countries.
>>> In some states, actually, they're called "speed humps," which seems
>>> rather odd.
>>
>> In California, those are different animals. "Speed bumps" are
>> designed so that in order to not get jolted when passing over them,
>> you need to slow down before doing so. You typically find them in
>> parking lots. "Speed humps", on the other hand are designed so that
>> if you are traveling at the speed limit, you can pass comfortably over
>> them without using your brake, but if you're going much faster, you'll
>> get a nasty bounce and almost certainly be going less than the speed
>> limit when you come down.
>>
>> We have speed humps on one of the streets near my house, with signs
>> announcing the speed (25 mph) they're designed for. For those of us
>> who use that street a lot, it's always frustrating driving behind
>> somebody who feels the need to treat them like speed bumps and brake
>> to a crawl before each one.
>
> Basically, when people fuck up their streets deliberately, I do
> everything in my power to express my displeasure. Making the street
> less useful is one of the basic tactics. I try to squeal my tires going
> around the corners in "tank trap" neighborhoods, too.

Speed humps are one of the least annoying methods of traffic
abatement. In this case, it's a residential street that passes by an
elementary school, but which had tended to be a "cut through" street
for people trying to avoid the traffic on the main street one block
over. The speed limit is 25, and if you're going 30, it doesn't slow
you down at all; you barely notice a bit of a hill. If you're going
35, you feel a bump and come down going about 28, and if you're going
the speed a lot of people (who were taking the street because the
nominally 45 mph main street was too slow because of the cars) used
to, you felt a decent jolt.

When they put the speed humps in, a lot of us were skeptical, but
they've done their job really well. Cut-through traffic is down,
speeds in front of the school are down, and those of us who take the
street every day to get out of the neighborhood don't feel
inconvenienced.


--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |It's like grasping the difference
SF Bay Area (1982-) |between what one usually considers
Chicago (1964-1982) |a 'difficult' problem, and what
|*is* a difficult problem. The day
evan.kir...@gmail.com |one understands *why* counting all
|the molecules in the Universe isn't
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ |difficult...there's the leap.
| Tina Marie Holmboe

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Jun 9, 4:14 pm, Evan Kirshenbaum <evan.kirshenb...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> writes:
>
> > I suppose there are other words for "speed bump" in other countries.
> > In some states, actually, they're called "speed humps," which seems
> > rather odd.
>
> In California, those are different animals.  "Speed bumps" are
> designed so that in order to not get jolted when passing over them,
> you need to slow down before doing so.  You typically find them in
> parking lots.  "Speed humps", on the other hand are designed so that
> if you are traveling at the speed limit, you can pass comfortably over
> them without using your brake, but if you're going much faster, you'll
> get a nasty bounce and almost certainly be going less than the speed
> limit when you come down.

That sure ain't what that sign meant in Baltimore. It was used exactly
as "speed bump" is in NJ.

[TimC]

On 2012-06-09, Evan Kirshenbaum (aka Bruce)
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:

> We have speed humps on one of the streets near my house, with signs
> announcing the speed (25 mph) they're designed for. For those of us
> who use that street a lot, it's always frustrating driving behind
> somebody who feels the need to treat them like speed bumps and brake
> to a crawl before each one.

In cars, the local cobblestones are barely felt. Consequently, they
never slow down in the heavy pedestrian area where they were installed
to slow them down. On one of my motorbikes, not too bad, on the
other, a bit of a pain. On my bicycles, I actively avoid them.

On a downhill street with raised strips (almost like pedestrian
crossings, except you'd be jaywalking if you tried), the cars always
slow down to 15km/h, and I overtake them on my bicycle travelling at
50km/h, barely feeling the bumps (on my motos, I have to get off the
seat but only slow down slightly for them). Bloody slowpokes.

--
TimC
Dijkstra probably hates me
(Linus Torvalds, on gotos in kernel/sched.c)

[Adam Funk]

On 2012-06-08, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> On Jun 7, 11:55 pm, tony cooper <tony.cooper...@gmail.com> wrote:

>>  I can think of no other term
>> than "sandwich board" for them.
>

> They often advertise sandwiches.


Good one!

[Adam Funk]

On 2012-06-09, David Dyer-Bennet wrote:

> Evan Kirshenbaum <evan.kir...@gmail.com> writes:

>> We have speed humps on one of the streets near my house, with signs
>> announcing the speed (25 mph) they're designed for. For those of us
>> who use that street a lot, it's always frustrating driving behind
>> somebody who feels the need to treat them like speed bumps and brake
>> to a crawl before each one.
>
> Basically, when people fuck up their streets deliberately, I do
> everything in my power to express my displeasure. Making the street
> less useful is one of the basic tactics. I try to squeal my tires going
> around the corners in "tank trap" neighborhoods, too.

Why can't you just treat other people's villages & neighbourhoods with
respect instead of driving antisocially?


In the UK, for example, I notice that new, typically out-of-town,
developments are deliberately designed to discourage rat-running, but
the people who live there & commute into town every day by car whine
like crazy about traffic-calming measures designed to give people in
older neighbourhoods the same benefits.


--
A lot of people never use their intiative because no-one
told them to. --- Banksy

[Adam Funk]

On 2012-06-08, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> He's going at me again in the kibbling group about a type specimen
> from years ago.


You will learn to regret your filthy remarks.


As for the type specimen, you had claimed previously that there was no
inter-sentence spacing in Caslon's work. Someone produced an example
that disproved that claim. Are you capable of admitting that you were
mistaken?


--
No right of private conversation was enumerated in the Constitution.
I don't suppose it occurred to anyone at the time that it could be
prevented. [Whitfield Diffie]

[Adam Funk]

In Virginia, a "DIP" sign usually marks a temporary drop of an inch or
two where a new road surface ends.

Some years ago, a relative of mine who was used to that was driving in
New Mexico, saw a "DIP AHEAD" sign, & kept tooling along --- until he
saw the dip coming. He kept slowing down as much as he could without
skidding because as he got closer, he still couldn't see the bottom of
it. It turns out NM has some very deep dips across the roads (to let
flash floods drain across, I think); he said if he hadn't slowed down
the front of the car might've hit the other side of the DIP.


(a different kind of "bottoming out")


--
When a man tells you that he got rich through hard work, ask him
whose? --- Don Marquis

[Jerry Friedman]

There's one of those close enough to me that I frequently hear *squeal
thump*, though not as frequently as in the year after it was put in.
The signs are right at the dip. It's about six or eight inches deep
and the slope looks like less than twenty degrees, but that's still
enough for your bumper to hit the other side, as I happen to know.

The street it's next to turns into a pond when it rains. Two or three
drain projects (maybe not competently planned or executed) didn't
solve the problem, but the dip has helped. I'm not sure whether it's
worth the car damage.

A familiar sign:

http://www.jimwestphoto.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=3&pid=12441

There's also one something like "Do not drive thru water" where an
arroyo crosses the road.

I've never seen what I'd call a flash flood--the kind that prompted
the invention of the bogey called el Cucuy or the Kokoman, who kills
children who play in ditches or arroyos. I've certainly seen deep
water standing in or flowing across roads.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Jun 11, 7:19 am, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote:
> On 2012-06-08, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
> > On Jun 7, 11:55 pm, tony cooper <tony.cooper...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>  I can think of no other term
> >> than "sandwich board" for them.
>
> > They often advertise sandwiches.
>
> Good one!

Actually the last few days I've been noticing that (in Manhattan,
anyway) they're not easel-type, but a single two-sided board affixed
with a stiff spring to support legs or a platform, with an inverted-T
profile. Thus they give with the wind rather than blow away, but
they're probably considerably heavier than the earlier model.

[Adam Funk]

On 2012-06-11, Jerry Friedman wrote:

> On Jun 11, 5:52 am, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote:
>> On 2012-06-08, Jerry Friedman wrote:

[driving in New Mexico]

>> In Virginia, a "DIP" sign usually marks a temporary drop of an inch or
>> two where a new road surface ends.
>>
>> Some years ago, a relative of mine who was used to that was driving in
>> New Mexico, saw a "DIP AHEAD" sign, & kept tooling along --- until he
>> saw the dip coming.  He kept slowing down as much as he could without
>> skidding because as he got closer, he still couldn't see the bottom of
>> it.  It turns out NM has some very deep dips across the roads (to let
>> flash floods drain across, I think); he said if he hadn't slowed down
>> the front of the car might've hit the other side of the DIP.
>>
>> (a different kind of "bottoming out")
>
> There's one of those close enough to me that I frequently hear *squeal
> thump*, though not as frequently as in the year after it was put in.
> The signs are right at the dip. It's about six or eight inches deep
> and the slope looks like less than twenty degrees, but that's still
> enough for your bumper to hit the other side, as I happen to know.

This guy was driving on a highway, probably at 55 MPH. The way he
tells the story, the DIP was big enough to hide a tank in. (He has
taken up fishing since then, FWIW.)

[Adam Funk]

On 2012-06-11, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> On Jun 11, 7:19 am, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote:
>> On 2012-06-08, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>
>> > On Jun 7, 11:55 pm, tony cooper <tony.cooper...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>  I can think of no other term
>> >> than "sandwich board" for them.
>>
>> > They often advertise sandwiches.
>>
>> Good one!
>
> Actually the last few days I've been noticing that (in Manhattan,
> anyway) they're not easel-type, but a single two-sided board affixed

Aha, "easel sign" would be a good term for the kind we were talking
about earlier (unless, of course, it's advertising sandwiches.)

> with a stiff spring to support legs or a platform, with an inverted-T
> profile. Thus they give with the wind rather than blow away, but
> they're probably considerably heavier than the earlier model.

I think the RH kind in the photo below, with the sign suspended in a
tubular frame, is also designed not to blow away.

http://www.newsfroup.net/signs1/#lagos


--
"Gonzo, is that the contract from the devil?"
"No, Kermit, it's worse than that. This is the bill from special
effects."

[António Marques]

How do they work, mechanically?

[benl...@ihug.co.nz]

Yes, we have a lot of those too -- don't know whether the term
"sandwich board" has been extended to cover them. No time for field
research right now.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Jun 11, 3:35 pm, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote:
> On 2012-06-11, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
> > On Jun 11, 7:19 am, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote:
> >> On 2012-06-08, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
> >> > On Jun 7, 11:55 pm, tony cooper <tony.cooper...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >>  I can think of no other term
> >> >> than "sandwich board" for them.
>
> >> > They often advertise sandwiches.
>
> >> Good one!
>
> > Actually the last few days I've been noticing that (in Manhattan,
> > anyway) they're not easel-type, but a single two-sided board affixed
>
> Aha, "easel sign" would be a good term for the kind we were talking
> about earlier (unless, of course, it's advertising sandwiches.)
>
> > with a stiff spring to support legs or a platform, with an inverted-T
> > profile. Thus they give with the wind rather than blow away, but
> > they're probably considerably heavier than the earlier model.
>
> I think the RH kind in the photo below, with the sign suspended in a
> tubular frame, is also designed not to blow away.
>
> http://www.newsfroup.net/signs1/#lagos
>

Yes; the base looks quite heavy. But that looks like it could really
whip around in a high wind -- maybe they don't have high winds in
Nigeria.

[Peter T. Daniels]

> research right now.-

First you need to discover whether "sandwich board" was extended from
the kind in which the wearer was sandwiched, to the kind that rests,
uninhabited, on the ground.

[Tak To]

On 6/8/2012 6:54 AM, Adam Funk wrote:
> On 2012-06-08, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>

>> The Korean shopping mall up in Ridgefield, NJ, where I have patronized
>> the Boston Market (which is no longer Korean-staffed) has a number of
>> them at odd angles, which don't correspond particularly well to either
>> the curves or the straightaways in the rather convoluted parking lot.
>> it's quite a roller coaster.
>
> Just out of curiosity, what makes a shopping mall in NJ "Korean"
> (given that Boston Market doesn't sound to me like a particularly
> Korean shop)?

Anchored by a huge Korean supermarket?

Also, many Asian supermarkets sublet space within the
building to small business geared towards Asians.

Tak
--
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ta...@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr

[benl...@ihug.co.nz]

As far as I'm concerned we've established that (me supported by Paul)
for NZ anyway.
What remains to be seen is whether the term is further applied to the
other kinds (both the ones with a tubular frame and those with the
sign-panel directly embedded in the heavy base) where there is no
longer any "sandwich" element.

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

They're like speed bumps, but lower and broader, typically, it
appears, about 14 feet across, with a parabolic shape. The desired
speed would seem to be relative to the steepness of the curve, but I
can't find anything that gives anything resembling a formula. Most
commercial offerings appear to be geared for 20 or 25 mph.

--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |If we have to re-invent the wheel,
SF Bay Area (1982-) |can we at least make it round this
Chicago (1964-1982) |time?

evan.kir...@gmail.com

http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

"Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> writes:

I'd say so. I see quite a number of Google Books hits for "sandwich
board on the sidewalk/pavement" going back to 1993 that appear to be
just this sort of thing. I see one hit from 1918 that implies that
people made the jump back then, too:

The recruiting flag of the United States Army hung from a
second-story window of the Commercial Hotel; a sandwich-board
rested on the sidewalk in front of the hotel, inviting young men
to enlist for the service of their country; and by turns, Sergeant
Gillis and his partner, a rangy Middle-western soldier named
Kilpatrick, stood at their post beside the sandwich-board, on the
watch for youthful patriots.

Freeman Tilden, _Khaki_, 1918

It's possible that at other times there was someone carrying the
board, but nothing in the text suggests it and it's not the sort of
thing I'd expect to be advertised that way.

--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |I'd be far from lying if I neglected
SF Bay Area (1982-) |to deny that I couldn't help but
Chicago (1964-1982) |fail to disagree less.
|
evan.kir...@gmail.com | R H Draney

http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

[tony cooper]

By whom? An individual not involved in making, selling, or using them
is likely to stay with the term they first used for the item. Even if
the shape changes, the function remains the same.

A person who makes them, sells them, or uses them is likely to go with
the new term.

I still call that place on the dashboard of my car "the cigarette
lighter outlet" even though the last two cars I've purchased didn't
come with a plug-in lighter. They came equipped with "power points"
according to the manual.

--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

[Frank S]

"Adam Funk" <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote in message
news:54uha9x...@news.ducksburg.com...

> On 2012-06-11, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>
>> On Jun 11, 5:52 am, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote:
>>> On 2012-06-08, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>
> [driving in New Mexico]
>
>>> In Virginia, a "DIP" sign usually marks a temporary drop of an inch or
>>> two where a new road surface ends.
>>>
>>> Some years ago, a relative of mine who was used to that was driving in
>>> New Mexico, saw a "DIP AHEAD" sign, & kept tooling along --- until he
>>> saw the dip coming. He kept slowing down as much as he could without
>>> skidding because as he got closer, he still couldn't see the bottom of
>>> it. It turns out NM has some very deep dips across the roads (to let
>>> flash floods drain across, I think); he said if he hadn't slowed down
>>> the front of the car might've hit the other side of the DIP.
>>>
>>> (a different kind of "bottoming out")
>>
>> There's one of those close enough to me that I frequently hear *squeal
>> thump*, though not as frequently as in the year after it was put in.
>> The signs are right at the dip. It's about six or eight inches deep
>> and the slope looks like less than twenty degrees, but that's still
>> enough for your bumper to hit the other side, as I happen to know.
>
>
> This guy was driving on a highway, probably at 55 MPH. The way he
> tells the story, the DIP was big enough to hide a tank in. (He has
> taken up fishing since then, FWIW.)
>
>

In Mexico those DIPs are called VADOs and some of them are pretty serious
tank-hiders.

In West Texas there was an east-west highway with miles and miles of DIPs at
short (quarter-mile or less) intervals. At wide-open spaces cruising speed
they gave the suspension and tires on my 1953 Ford convertible a severe
workout. Eventually one tire blew out. We cruised at about two-thirds the
previous velocity until the wroad unwrinkled.

--
Frank ess

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Jun 11, 6:52 pm, Tak To <ta...@alum.mit.eduxx> wrote:
> On 6/8/2012 6:54 AM, Adam Funk wrote:
> > On 2012-06-08, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
> >> The Korean shopping mall up in Ridgefield, NJ, where I have patronized
> >> the Boston Market (which is no longer Korean-staffed) has a number of
> >> them at odd angles, which don't correspond particularly well to either
> >> the curves or the straightaways in the rather convoluted parking lot.
> >> it's quite a roller coaster.
>
> > Just out of curiosity, what makes a shopping mall in NJ "Korean"
> > (given that Boston Market doesn't sound to me like a particularly
> > Korean shop)?

[I didn't see this the other day]

> Anchored by a huge Korean supermarket?

And lots of little Korean shops, as well.

You'd think even a Funkster could have figured that out for himself.
But clearly he was just champing at the bit for the opportunity to
call me a racist.

I don't expect him to know that a number of towns/boros near the
western end of the George Washington Bridge are very heavily Korean-
populated.

(But I do expect him to acknowledge that I can easily distinguish a
Korean signboard from a Chinese or a Japanese one -- and can read the
alphabet well enough to discover that the signs are often
transliterations of the businesses' English names, rather than
something in Korean. The same pattern is followed in the South Asian
store signs in Jackson Heights, Qns, NY.)

I always wondered why the Borders in Fort Lee that I frequently
visited didn't have a Korean section, given that the manager and a
considerable part of the staff were Korean, and the floors were always
clogged with Korean high-school kids "studying" (or whatever high-
school kids do in bookstores).

[Adam Funk]

On 2012-06-12, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> On Jun 11, 6:52 pm, Tak To <ta...@alum.mit.eduxx> wrote:
>> On 6/8/2012 6:54 AM, Adam Funk wrote:
>> > On 2012-06-08, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>
>> >> The Korean shopping mall up in Ridgefield, NJ, where I have patronized
>> >> the Boston Market (which is no longer Korean-staffed) has a number of
>> >> them at odd angles, which don't correspond particularly well to either
>> >> the curves or the straightaways in the rather convoluted parking lot.
>> >> it's quite a roller coaster.
>>
>> > Just out of curiosity, what makes a shopping mall in NJ "Korean"

Just to be clear, those were normal quotes, not scare quotes. ObAUE:
maybe we need different marks for those?

>> > (given that Boston Market doesn't sound to me like a particularly
>> > Korean shop)?
>
> [I didn't see this the other day]
>
>> Anchored by a huge Korean supermarket?
>
> And lots of little Korean shops, as well.

Thanks. So it's a Korean shopping mall because it has more Korean
shops than the average mall. Fair enough.

> You'd think even a Funkster could have figured that out for himself.

As I said, it wasn't clear since you were discussing "the Boston
Market (which is no longer Korean-staffed)".

> But clearly he was just champing at the bit for the opportunity to
> call me a racist.

Don't be so paranoid. You're only a bigot against Europeans, AFAICT.

> I don't expect him to know that a number of towns/boros near the
> western end of the George Washington Bridge are very heavily Korean-
> populated.

I've only briefly visited NJ, & that was some years ago.

> (But I do expect him to acknowledge that I can easily distinguish a
> Korean signboard from a Chinese or a Japanese one -- and can read the
> alphabet well enough to discover that the signs are often
> transliterations of the businesses' English names, rather than
> something in Korean. The same pattern is followed in the South Asian
> store signs in Jackson Heights, Qns, NY.)

Of course, I'm not surprised that you can. (Heck, I can identify
Korean writing.)


--
I heard that Hans Christian Andersen lifted the title for "The Little
Mermaid" off a Red Lobster Menu. [Bucky Katt]

[Adam Funk]

meatless sandwich board


--
"It is the role of librarians to keep government running in difficult
times," replied Dramoren. "Librarians are the last line of defence
against chaos." (McMullen 2001)

[António Marques]

Evan Kirshenbaum wrote (12-06-2012 01:29):

Interesting. I think I may have seen those, but if so they're very rare here.

[tony cooper]

On Tue, 12 Jun 2012 11:26:07 +0100, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com>
wrote:

>On 2012-06-12, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
>> On Jun 11, 6:52�pm, Tak To <ta...@alum.mit.eduxx> wrote:
>>> On 6/8/2012 6:54 AM, Adam Funk wrote:
>>> > On 2012-06-08, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>>
>>> >> The Korean shopping mall up in Ridgefield, NJ, where I have patronized
>>> >> the Boston Market (which is no longer Korean-staffed) has a number of
>>> >> them at odd angles, which don't correspond particularly well to either
>>> >> the curves or the straightaways in the rather convoluted parking lot.
>>> >> it's quite a roller coaster.
>>>
>>> > Just out of curiosity, what makes a shopping mall in NJ "Korean"
>
>Just to be clear, those were normal quotes, not scare quotes. ObAUE:
>maybe we need different marks for those?
>
>
>>> > (given that Boston Market doesn't sound to me like a particularly
>>> > Korean shop)?
>>
>> [I didn't see this the other day]
>>
>>> Anchored by a huge Korean supermarket?
>>
>> And lots of little Korean shops, as well.
>
>Thanks. So it's a Korean shopping mall because it has more Korean
>shops than the average mall. Fair enough.
>

I don't see a problem with "Korean shopping mall". There aren't too
many Koreans in the Orlando area, but we have a large population of
Vietnamese, Cambodians, and Laotians. There are several shopping
centers around here that specialize in groceries for that population.

If I were to give directions to someone to a location, say, on East
Colonial Ave I might say "just east of the big Vietnamese
supermarket". (And, I don't mean that the groceries sold there are
for larger Vietnamese people.)

The word "mall" is debatably correct as used by Peter. Not wrong, but
not really right unless it is a large, free-standing, complex of
stores of many different kinds. A "mall" is usually anchored by one
or more large department stores like Macy's, JC Penny, Sears, etc.

The smaller configurations are what I might call a "strip center" or a
"shopping plaza". They might have one large store and several shops
in one connected building.

However, NY/New Jersey usage may be different. If the local usage is
"mall" for something I wouldn't designate as a "mall", then local
usage is correct. We can't expect someone to know that the local
usage is different from the usage in other parts of the country.

>As I said, it wasn't clear since you were discussing "the Boston
>Market (which is no longer Korean-staffed)".

There is a national chain of restaurants named "Boston Market".
There's one near me. There is nothing about the fare that reminds me
of Boston. They are headquartered in Colorado, the menu has mostly
meat choices, and their specialties seem to be meat loaf and
rotisserie chicken. I've eaten in one twice, and have no plans to
return.

That a Boston Market restaurant is located in a Korean neighborhood,
and staffed by Koreans, does not seem at all incongruous to me. Right
next door to the big Vietnamese supermarket I mentioned above is a
"Subway" restaurant with Vietnamese employees.

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

tony cooper <tony.co...@gmail.com> writes:

> The word "mall" is debatably correct as used by Peter. Not wrong, but
> not really right unless it is a large, free-standing, complex of
> stores of many different kinds. A "mall" is usually anchored by one
> or more large department stores like Macy's, JC Penny, Sears, etc.
>
> The smaller configurations are what I might call a "strip center" or a
> "shopping plaza". They might have one large store and several shops
> in one connected building.

Those are, indeed, "strip malls" out here in California, although it
would be a bit unusual to drop the "strip" (which carries the
stress).

--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |Usenet is like Tetris for people
SF Bay Area (1982-) |who still remember how to read.
Chicago (1964-1982)

evan.kir...@gmail.com

http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

[Peter T. Daniels]

It is the Midwestern use that I acquired during 25 years in Chicago.
In the NYC area, they were called "shopping centers," though "mall"
seems to have spread eastward. It's quite a while now -- maybe going
back to the Bicentennial -- since Midwestern tourists claimed to be
disappointed to find no stores at the National Mall in Washington, DC.

When I first came back to NY in 1997, the only malls of the kind I had
become used to were the Galleria, just south of Poughkeepsie(!), and
the Palisade Center, on the Thruway in Rockland County, which it took
me longer to come across because I'd have to use a toll bridge to get
to it.

> The smaller configurations are what I might call a "strip center" or a
> "shopping plaza".  They might have one large store and several shops
> in one connected building.

Neither of those phrases is familiar, a plaza being an open space
within a city (such as the one alongside the Plaza Hotel at 59th and
Fifth). A strip center might be a place for horny men to find risque
but innocent entertainment.

To be sure, many shopping malls have "Plaza" in their name.

The Korean one in question comprises one large store (whose name I
have never taken the trouble to transliterate, to discover whether
it's named in Korean or English) and a number of smaller stores, and
the parking lot is on two sides of the main building, with the Boston
Market in a separate structure to the side.

> However, NY/New Jersey usage may be different.  If the local usage is
> "mall" for something I wouldn't designate as a "mall", then local
> usage is correct.  We can't expect someone to know that the local
> usage is different from the usage in other parts of the country.
>
> >As I said, it wasn't clear since you were discussing "the Boston
> >Market (which is no longer Korean-staffed)".
>
> There is a national chain of restaurants named "Boston Market".
> There's one near me.  There is nothing about the fare that reminds me
> of Boston.  They are headquartered in Colorado, the menu has mostly
> meat choices, and their specialties seem to be meat loaf and
> rotisserie chicken.  I've eaten in one twice, and have no plans to
> return.

The founder of Boston Chicken was from Boston. He became very wealthy.
I don't know whether the name was changed to "Market" (when the menu
expanded) before or after he severed all connection with the company
and retired.

> That a Boston Market restaurant is located in a Korean neighborhood,
> and staffed by Koreans, does not seem at all incongruous to me.  Right
> next door to the big Vietnamese supermarket I mentioned above is a
> "Subway" restaurant with Vietnamese employees.

Most Subways around here seem to be operated by South Asians.

[Glenn Knickerbocker]

On 6/12/2012 6:20 AM, Adam Funk wrote:
> meatless sandwich board

Have you ever heard of a wish sandwich board?

¬R

[tony cooper]

On Tue, 12 Jun 2012 08:27:29 -0700, Evan Kirshenbaum
<evan.kir...@gmail.com> wrote:

>tony cooper <tony.co...@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> The word "mall" is debatably correct as used by Peter. Not wrong, but
>> not really right unless it is a large, free-standing, complex of
>> stores of many different kinds. A "mall" is usually anchored by one
>> or more large department stores like Macy's, JC Penny, Sears, etc.
>>
>> The smaller configurations are what I might call a "strip center" or a
>> "shopping plaza". They might have one large store and several shops
>> in one connected building.
>
>Those are, indeed, "strip malls" out here in California, although it
>would be a bit unusual to drop the "strip" (which carries the
>stress).

I don't know why I omitted "strip mall". It's certainly a common term
here. It's usually a series of individual stores in a building built
in a straight line or an ell-shape with one large parking lot. In
Florida, all the entrances face directly to outside.

Many of them have "storefront churches" as tenants. Small membership
churches, usually evangelical, rent the spaces when they can't justify
a building of their own.

[Les Cargill]

Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
> tony cooper <tony.co...@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> The word "mall" is debatably correct as used by Peter. Not wrong, but
>> not really right unless it is a large, free-standing, complex of
>> stores of many different kinds. A "mall" is usually anchored by one
>> or more large department stores like Macy's, JC Penny, Sears, etc.
>>
>> The smaller configurations are what I might call a "strip center" or a
>> "shopping plaza". They might have one large store and several shops
>> in one connected building.
>
> Those are, indeed, "strip malls" out here in California, although it
> would be a bit unusual to drop the "strip" (which carries the
> stress).
>

If I read tony right, this would be conversion of an actual mall to
more like a strip mall. The stores all only have exterior doors after
the conversion, and there's no common area/food court.

http://www.simon.com/mall/FloorPlan.aspx?id=221

Richardson Square used to be a regular mall.

--
Les Cargill

[tony cooper]

On Tue, 12 Jun 2012 09:08:30 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
<gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

>> The smaller configurations are what I might call a "strip center" or a
>> "shopping plaza". �They might have one large store and several shops
>> in one connected building.
>
>Neither of those phrases is familiar, a plaza being an open space
>within a city

I does not surprise one bit that a developer would use an incorrect
term as the name of his project.

After all, we have housing developments with names like "Woodland
Hills" where there is no woodland and the terrain is flat. Or,
"Eagle's Nest" where there isn't a tree tall enough to interest an
eagle. My favorite is one I pass by taking a certain route: Elegant
Heights". The homes are ordinary and the ground flat and street
level.

[Glenn Knickerbocker]

On 6/12/2012 12:08 PM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> When I first came back to NY in 1997, the only malls of the kind I had
> become used to were the Galleria, just south of Poughkeepsie(!), and
> the Palisade Center, on the Thruway in Rockland County, which it took
> me longer to come across because I'd have to use a toll bridge to get
> to it.

Was there something un-mall-like about the Cross County Shopping Center,
The Westchester, the Galleria at White Plains, and the Jefferson Valley
Mall? Were single-story indoor malls like Dutchess Mall and South Hills
Mall (directly adjoining the Poughkeepsie Galleria) unfamiliar?

Across that same toll bridge you would also have found Newburgh Mall,
the Galleria at Crystal Run, and Hudson Valley Mall (immortalized by
Graham Parker a few years before).

�R

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Jun 12, 1:39 pm, Les Cargill <lcargil...@comcast.com> wrote:
> Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:

You're suggesting that an "actual mall" or a "regular mall" has to
have a certain architectural configuration?

In both New York [where the first one was: Cross County Shopping
Center] and Chicago [e.g. Edens Plaza], the older shopping centers/
malls are _not_ humunguous single buildings with an anchor at each
end, dozens of shops lining corridors, and a central food court.

Rather, they are a number of individual buildings (each of which could
be a strip mall if it were along a street instead of surrounded by
parking lots) arranged in parallel, or perpendicular, or otherwise,
with one or two or three anchor stores at boundaries. Cross County had
a Gimbels, a Wanamaker's, and a Sears. (When Wanamaker's left the area
long ago, it became a Lord & Taylor -- both quite upscale stores.)
Edens Plaza (on the Edens Expressway) had a Carson Pirie Scott.

Just across the Cross County Parkway and a block or two in from the
Cross County Shopping Center, if the street maps are to be believed,
is the campus of Sarah Lawrence College.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Jun 12, 2:39 pm, Glenn Knickerbocker <N...@bestweb.net> wrote:
> On 6/12/2012 12:08 PM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
> > When I first came back to NY in 1997, the only malls of the kind I had
> > become used to were the Galleria, just south of Poughkeepsie(!), and
> > the Palisade Center, on the Thruway in Rockland County, which it took
> > me longer to come across because I'd have to use a toll bridge to get
> > to it.
>
> Was there something un-mall-like about the Cross County Shopping Center,

Yes. Un-Midwestern mall, that is.

> The Westchester, the Galleria at White Plains,

Those two are far more recent, obviously built on the Midwestern
model. The only time I ever visited the Galleria, it was because my
Financial Advisor's office used to be at one end of it and he
validated my parking. I used to could visit the Westchester because
there was a shopping center across the street that didn't charge for
parking and didn't nonitor whether its users went from its stores back
to their car, or across the road to the big mall.

> and the Jefferson Valley
> Mall?  Were single-story indoor malls like Dutchess Mall and South Hills
> Mall (directly adjoining the Poughkeepsie Galleria) unfamiliar?

I don't know (of) any of those. When were they built? I assume the
Dutchess Mall is somewhere in Dutchess County, but of a Jefferson
Valley I know not. (One day I wanted to see Marist College, so I
simply drove up 9 till I got to it.)

> Across that same toll bridge you would also have found Newburgh Mall,
> the Galleria at Crystal Run, and Hudson Valley Mall (immortalized by
> Graham Parker a few years before).

No, I wouldn't have. The Thruway starts being a toll road not long
after the Palisade Center, and I saw far more than enough of Newburgh
during the summers when my mother had a country house in Mountain
Lodge Park. (In 2010 I did go back to the Storm King Art Center, which
we had discovered in the early 60s when it was brand new. Still no
contact with Newburgh.)

I don't know who Graham Parker might be.

[Adam Funk]

On 2012-06-12, tony cooper wrote:

> On Tue, 12 Jun 2012 11:26:07 +0100, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com>
> wrote:
>
>>On 2012-06-12, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>
>>> On Jun 11, 6:52 pm, Tak To <ta...@alum.mit.eduxx> wrote:
>>>> On 6/8/2012 6:54 AM, Adam Funk wrote:

>>>> > Just out of curiosity, what makes a shopping mall in NJ "Korean"

...

>>>> > (given that Boston Market doesn't sound to me like a particularly
>>>> > Korean shop)?
>>>
>>> [I didn't see this the other day]
>>>
>>>> Anchored by a huge Korean supermarket?
>>>
>>> And lots of little Korean shops, as well.
>>
>>Thanks. So it's a Korean shopping mall because it has more Korean
>>shops than the average mall. Fair enough.
>>
> I don't see a problem with "Korean shopping mall". There aren't too
> many Koreans in the Orlando area, but we have a large population of
> Vietnamese, Cambodians, and Laotians. There are several shopping
> centers around here that specialize in groceries for that population.

I don't see a problem with it either. I was just curious.

> If I were to give directions to someone to a location, say, on East
> Colonial Ave I might say "just east of the big Vietnamese
> supermarket". (And, I don't mean that the groceries sold there are
> for larger Vietnamese people.)

Ha. I agree, but I haven't personally come across a shopping mall
that I'd associate with a particular ethnicity (whereas I'm familar
with Irish bars, Chinese supermarkets, &c.).

> The word "mall" is debatably correct as used by Peter. Not wrong, but
> not really right unless it is a large, free-standing, complex of
> stores of many different kinds. A "mall" is usually anchored by one
> or more large department stores like Macy's, JC Penny, Sears, etc.
>
> The smaller configurations are what I might call a "strip center" or a
> "shopping plaza". They might have one large store and several shops
> in one connected building.

"Strip center" is fnarrable for me. I'd say "strip mall" or "shopping
plaza".

> However, NY/New Jersey usage may be different. If the local usage is
> "mall" for something I wouldn't designate as a "mall", then local
> usage is correct. We can't expect someone to know that the local
> usage is different from the usage in other parts of the country.
>
>
>>As I said, it wasn't clear since you were discussing "the Boston
>>Market (which is no longer Korean-staffed)".
>
> There is a national chain of restaurants named "Boston Market".

I wasn't familiar with that chain (which Wikipedia says "has its
greatest presence in the Northeastern United States"); from the name,
I expected a chain of grocery stores rather than restaurants.

> There's one near me. There is nothing about the fare that reminds me
> of Boston. They are headquartered in Colorado, the menu has mostly
> meat choices, and their specialties seem to be meat loaf and
> rotisserie chicken. I've eaten in one twice, and have no plans to
> return.
>
> That a Boston Market restaurant is located in a Korean neighborhood,
> and staffed by Koreans, does not seem at all incongruous to me. Right
> next door to the big Vietnamese supermarket I mentioned above is a
> "Subway" restaurant with Vietnamese employees.

Right.


--
Some say the world will end in fire; some say in segfaults.
[XKCD 312]

[Adam Funk]

"Be careful what you wish for...."


--
The kid's a hot prospect. He's got a good head for merchandising, an
agent who can take you downtown and one of the best urine samples I've
seen in a long time. [Dead Kennedys t-shirt]

[Adam Funk]

On 2012-06-12, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> You're suggesting that an "actual mall" or a "regular mall" has to
> have a certain architectural configuration?
>
> In both New York [where the first one was: Cross County Shopping
> Center] and Chicago [e.g. Edens Plaza], the older shopping centers/
> malls are _not_ humunguous single buildings with an anchor at each
> end, dozens of shops lining corridors, and a central food court.
>
> Rather, they are a number of individual buildings (each of which could
> be a strip mall if it were along a street instead of surrounded by
> parking lots) arranged in parallel, or perpendicular, or otherwise,
> with one or two or three anchor stores at boundaries. Cross County had
> a Gimbels, a Wanamaker's, and a Sears. (When Wanamaker's left the area
> long ago, it became a Lord & Taylor -- both quite upscale stores.)
> Edens Plaza (on the Edens Expressway) had a Carson Pirie Scott.

I don't doubt that that's more like one of the earlier senses of
"mall" (which the OED says ultimately comes from the street Pall Mall
in London where the game pall-mall (mallets, balls, iron rings as
targets) was played):

mall n1 2c. Chiefly N. Amer., Austral., and N.Z. A shopping
precinct or street closed to vehicles; a large (usually covered)
shopping centre; = shopping mall n. at shopping n. Compounds 1b.

First citation for that sense:

1959 Chain Store Age Oct. e3 Kalamazoo's permanent downtown
mall..is an expression of the great need to do something to pull
the central business districts of our nation out of the low estate
in which they have fallen.


--
Unix is a user-friendly operating system. It's just very choosy about
its friends.

[Adam Funk]

On 2012-06-12, Glenn Knickerbocker wrote:

For me, wielding my AmE, a "shopping mall" or otherwise unqualified
"mall" has a roof over all the space between the shops, although there
might be a gap between the main body of the mall and one or two
buildings that have been added to it. If the space between the shops
is uncovered, it's a "strip mall" or "(shopping) plaza".


--
Civilization is a race between catastrophe and education.
[H G Wells]

[David Dyer-Bennet]

I mostly encounter such things once (there don't happen to be any on
routes I use routinely), and I can't be certain how well-engineered they
are by inspection on the first pass, so I slow way way down. I haven't
found any long flat ones that seem comfortable and non-dangerous at the
speed limit for where they are. (It probably depends a lot on the car;
hard sports suspension, american boat sedan, low ground clearance,
truck, or what?)

> When they put the speed humps in, a lot of us were skeptical, but
> they've done their job really well. Cut-through traffic is down,
> speeds in front of the school are down, and those of us who take the
> street every day to get out of the neighborhood don't feel
> inconvenienced.

Sounds like it's serving the target audience okay, then.
--
David Dyer-Bennet, dd...@dd-b.net; http://dd-b.net/
Snapshots: http://dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/
Photos: http://dd-b.net/photography/gallery/
Dragaera: http://dragaera.info

[David Dyer-Bennet]

Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> writes:

> On 2012-06-09, David Dyer-Bennet wrote:

>
>> Evan Kirshenbaum <evan.kir...@gmail.com> writes:
>
>>> We have speed humps on one of the streets near my house, with signs
>>> announcing the speed (25 mph) they're designed for. For those of us
>>> who use that street a lot, it's always frustrating driving behind
>>> somebody who feels the need to treat them like speed bumps and brake
>>> to a crawl before each one.
>>
>> Basically, when people fuck up their streets deliberately, I do
>> everything in my power to express my displeasure. Making the street
>> less useful is one of the basic tactics. I try to squeal my tires going
>> around the corners in "tank trap" neighborhoods, too.
>
>

> Why can't you just treat other people's villages & neighbourhoods with
> respect instead of driving antisocially?

Why can't they, rather than making anti-social modifications to the
streets? They don't own the streets out front of their houses any more
than I do out front of mine; those are public spaces.

[Glenn Knickerbocker]

On 6/12/2012 3:46 PM, Adam Funk wrote:
> For me, wielding my AmE, a "shopping mall" or otherwise unqualified
> "mall" has a roof over all the space between the shops,

That's true of all on my list except Cross County, which I've never gone
into and somehow thought looked liked that from the highway, never
realizing it was an open-air mall.

�R

[Adam Funk]

On 2012-06-09, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:

> David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net> writes:

>> Basically, when people fuck up their streets deliberately, I do
>> everything in my power to express my displeasure. Making the street
>> less useful is one of the basic tactics. I try to squeal my tires going
>> around the corners in "tank trap" neighborhoods, too.
>

> Speed humps are one of the least annoying methods of traffic
> abatement.

...

> When they put the speed humps in, a lot of us were skeptical, but
> they've done their job really well. Cut-through traffic is down,
> speeds in front of the school are down, and those of us who take the
> street every day to get out of the neighborhood don't feel
> inconvenienced.

My own experience suggests that "no entry" signs at many of the entry
points to my neighbourhood in the UK have been very good at reducing
rat-running (& thereby speeding). The speed bumps/humps are
secondary, & the chicanes (pinch points) are dangerous to cyclists
(because motorists try to shoot past).

My neighbourhood was a bit tricky to get out of anyway, because you
have to turn from one of the minor roads through the equivalent of a
"yield" sign onto a major road, but now it's also harder for the
rat-runners to get in; the reduction in entry points slows the
residents' access down a little, but IMO the trade is worthwhile.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Jun 12, 3:55 pm, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote:
> On 2012-06-12, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
> > You're suggesting that an "actual mall" or a "regular mall" has to
> > have a certain architectural configuration?
>
> > In both New York [where the first one was: Cross County Shopping
> > Center] and Chicago [e.g. Edens Plaza], the older shopping centers/
> > malls are _not_ humunguous single buildings with an anchor at each
> > end, dozens of shops lining corridors, and a central food court.
>
> > Rather, they are a number of individual buildings (each of which could
> > be a strip mall if it were along a street instead of surrounded by
> > parking lots) arranged in parallel, or perpendicular, or otherwise,
> > with one or two or three anchor stores at boundaries. Cross County had
> > a Gimbels, a Wanamaker's, and a Sears. (When Wanamaker's left the area
> > long ago, it became a Lord & Taylor -- both quite upscale stores.)
> > Edens Plaza (on the Edens Expressway) had a Carson Pirie Scott.
>
> I don't doubt that that's more like one of the earlier senses of
> "mall" (which the OED says ultimately comes from the street Pall Mall
> in London where the game pall-mall (mallets, balls, iron rings as
> targets) was played):
>
>   mall n1 2c.  Chiefly N. Amer., Austral., and N.Z. A shopping
>     precinct or street closed to vehicles; a large (usually covered)
>     shopping centre; = shopping mall n. at shopping n. Compounds 1b.

Further evidence that the OED is lousy at Americanisms.

Is that any better for the Austral. or NZ uses?

> First citation for that sense:
>
>     1959   Chain Store Age Oct. e3   Kalamazoo's permanent downtown
>     mall..is an expression of the great need to do something to pull
>     the central business districts of our nation out of the low estate
>     in which they have fallen.

Clearly not a mall in Les Cargill's sense, but in the sense that State
St. in Ithaca was malled just after I graduated from Cornell (it was
in place the next time I was there, in 1975), and State St. in Chicago
was malled under Jane Byrne (though the roadway was still used for
buses). That turned out to be a miserable failure, and it's now State
St. again. (Neither configuration, however, was helpful in
restimulating retail traffic.)

Ithacans/Chicagoans would hardly associate that sense with the
suburban malls they could drive to.

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net> writes:

> Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> writes:
>
>> On 2012-06-09, David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
>>
>>> Evan Kirshenbaum <evan.kir...@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>>> We have speed humps on one of the streets near my house, with
>>>> signs announcing the speed (25 mph) they're designed for. For
>>>> those of us who use that street a lot, it's always frustrating
>>>> driving behind somebody who feels the need to treat them like
>>>> speed bumps and brake to a crawl before each one.
>>>
>>> Basically, when people fuck up their streets deliberately, I do
>>> everything in my power to express my displeasure. Making the
>>> street less useful is one of the basic tactics. I try to squeal
>>> my tires going around the corners in "tank trap" neighborhoods,
>>> too.
>>
>> Why can't you just treat other people's villages & neighbourhoods
>> with respect instead of driving antisocially?
>
> Why can't they, rather than making anti-social modifications to the
> streets? They don't own the streets out front of their houses any
> more than I do out front of mine; those are public spaces.

Around here, it's typically public entities that make the
modifications (usually after petition by residents). The same public
entities that put up stop signs, posted speed limits, and other
anti-social modifications to the streets.

--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |It's gotten to the point where the
SF Bay Area (1982-) |only place you can get work done is
Chicago (1964-1982) |at home, because no one bugs you,
|and the best place to entertain
evan.kir...@gmail.com |yourself is at work, because the
|Internet connections are faster.
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ | Scott Adams

[bar...@bookpro.com]

On Sat, 09 Jun 2012 17:03:32 -0500, David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net>

wrote:

>Evan Kirshenbaum <evan.kir...@gmail.com> writes:
>

>> "Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> writes:
>>
>>> I suppose there are other words for "speed bump" in other countries.
>>> In some states, actually, they're called "speed humps," which seems
>>> rather odd.
>>
>> In California, those are different animals. "Speed bumps" are
>> designed so that in order to not get jolted when passing over them,
>> you need to slow down before doing so. You typically find them in
>> parking lots. "Speed humps", on the other hand are designed so that
>> if you are traveling at the speed limit, you can pass comfortably over
>> them without using your brake, but if you're going much faster, you'll
>> get a nasty bounce and almost certainly be going less than the speed
>> limit when you come down.
>>

>> We have speed humps on one of the streets near my house, with signs
>> announcing the speed (25 mph) they're designed for. For those of us
>> who use that street a lot, it's always frustrating driving behind
>> somebody who feels the need to treat them like speed bumps and brake
>> to a crawl before each one.
>
>Basically, when people fuck up their streets deliberately, I do
>everything in my power to express my displeasure. Making the street
>less useful is one of the basic tactics. I try to squeal my tires going
>around the corners in "tank trap" neighborhoods, too.

And then you brag on Usenet about behaving like a self-centered dick.
I'm sure we're all impressed.

BW

[Les Cargill]

Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Jun 12, 1:39 pm, Les Cargill <lcargil...@comcast.com> wrote:
>> Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>>> tony cooper <tony.cooper...@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>>> The word "mall" is debatably correct as used by Peter. Not wrong, but
>>>> not really right unless it is a large, free-standing, complex of
>>>> stores of many different kinds. A "mall" is usually anchored by one
>>>> or more large department stores like Macy's, JC Penny, Sears, etc.
>>
>>>> The smaller configurations are what I might call a "strip center" or a
>>>> "shopping plaza". They might have one large store and several shops
>>>> in one connected building.
>>
>>> Those are, indeed, "strip malls" out here in California, although it
>>> would be a bit unusual to drop the "strip" (which carries the
>>> stress).
>>
>> If I read tony right, this would be conversion of an actual mall to
>> more like a strip mall. The stores all only have exterior doors after
>> the conversion, and there's no common area/food court.
>>
>> http://www.simon.com/mall/FloorPlan.aspx?id=221
>>
>> Richardson Square used to be a regular mall.
>
> You're suggesting that an "actual mall" or a "regular mall" has to
> have a certain architectural configuration?
>

I am thinking the distinction between a strip mall and a "mall" mall
is that the "mall" mall has a common area that is inside.

> In both New York [where the first one was: Cross County Shopping
> Center] and Chicago [e.g. Edens Plaza], the older shopping centers/
> malls are _not_ humunguous single buildings with an anchor at each
> end, dozens of shops lining corridors, and a central food court.
>
> Rather, they are a number of individual buildings (each of which could
> be a strip mall if it were along a street instead of surrounded by
> parking lots) arranged in parallel, or perpendicular, or otherwise,
> with one or two or three anchor stores at boundaries. Cross County had
> a Gimbels, a Wanamaker's, and a Sears. (When Wanamaker's left the area
> long ago, it became a Lord & Taylor -- both quite upscale stores.)
> Edens Plaza (on the Edens Expressway) had a Carson Pirie Scott.
>
> Just across the Cross County Parkway and a block or two in from the
> Cross County Shopping Center, if the street maps are to be believed,
> is the campus of Sarah Lawrence College.
>

yeah, they are like a collection of strip malls. Those started
out around here ( Texas ) as "outlet malls", but anything built
recently is like that.

--
Les Cargill

[Peter T. Daniels]

The first "outlet mall" I knew is in Gurnee, Illinois (famous also for
Great America amusement park). I recall it as combining bloated strip
mall buildings with immense constructs of the type you're calling
malls.

And here, we have the Secaucus Outlet Center -- which is dozens(?) of
immense warehouses, each dedicated to a single manufacturer's
products, as well as at least one mall-type structure that has,
however, no large anchors at the end(s). It does have a rudimentary
food "court," which is just a row of four or so counters on a balcony
with tables. (One of them offered a fairly accurate attempt at a
Philly cheese steak.)

[Dr. HotSalt]

On Jun 12, 12:41 pm, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote:
> On 2012-06-12, tony cooper wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 12 Jun 2012 11:26:07 +0100, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com>
> > wrote:
>
> >>On 2012-06-12, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
> >>> On Jun 11, 6:52 pm, Tak To <ta...@alum.mit.eduxx> wrote:
> >>>> On 6/8/2012 6:54 AM, Adam Funk wrote:
> >>>> > Just out of curiosity, what makes a shopping mall in NJ "Korean"
> ...
> >>>> > (given that Boston Market doesn't sound to me like a particularly
> >>>> > Korean shop)?
>
> >>> [I didn't see this the other day]
>
> >>>> Anchored by a huge Korean supermarket?
>
> >>> And lots of little Korean shops, as well.
>
> >>Thanks.  So it's a Korean shopping mall because it has more Korean
> >>shops than the average mall.  Fair enough.
>
> > I don't see a problem with "Korean shopping mall".  There aren't too
> > many Koreans in the Orlando area, but we have a large population of
> > Vietnamese, Cambodians, and Laotians.  There are several shopping
> > centers around here that specialize in groceries for that population.
>
> I don't see a problem with it either.  I was just curious.

I'm not sure what "problem" might exist. On the way to my wife's
neurologist there are several such malls; two Chinese, one Korean, one
Vietnamese, and some others whose signage is in languages I recognize
only as Asian.

This is about midway between Seattle and Tacoma, WA.

> > If I were to give directions to someone to a location, say, on East
> > Colonial Ave I might say "just east of the big Vietnamese
> > supermarket".  (And, I don't mean that the groceries sold there are
> > for larger Vietnamese people.)
>
> Ha.  I agree, but I haven't personally come across a shopping mall
> that I'd associate with a particular ethnicity (whereas I'm familar
> with Irish bars, Chinese supermarkets, &c.).

Must not be a large Asian population where you live.

> > The word "mall" is debatably correct as used by Peter.  Not wrong, but
> > not really right unless it is a large, free-standing, complex of
> > stores of many different kinds.  A "mall" is usually anchored by one
> > or more large department stores like Macy's, JC Penny, Sears, etc.
>
> > The smaller configurations are what I might call a "strip center" or a
> > "shopping plaza".  They might have one large store and several shops
> > in one connected building.
>
> "Strip center" is fnarrable for me.  I'd say "strip mall" or "shopping
> plaza".
>
> > However, NY/New Jersey usage may be different.  If the local usage is
> > "mall" for something I wouldn't designate as a "mall", then local
> > usage is correct.  We can't expect someone to know that the local
> > usage is different from the usage in other parts of the country.

My experience supports this interpretation; if the locals call it a
mall then it's a mall, even if it isn't what I was raised to think of
as a "proper" mall. OED has no say in the matter.

> >>As I said, it wasn't clear since you were discussing "the Boston
> >>Market (which is no longer Korean-staffed)".
>
> > There is a national chain of restaurants named "Boston Market".
>
> I wasn't familiar with that chain (which Wikipedia says "has its
> greatest presence in the Northeastern United States"); from the name,
> I expected a chain of grocery stores rather than restaurants.

Same here but I was raised 'way west of the Mississippi.

> > There's one near me.  There is nothing about the fare that reminds me
> > of Boston.  They are headquartered in Colorado, the menu has mostly
> > meat choices, and their specialties seem to be meat loaf and
> > rotisserie chicken.  I've eaten in one twice, and have no plans to
> > return.
>
> > That a Boston Market restaurant is located in a Korean neighborhood,
> > and staffed by Koreans, does not seem at all incongruous to me.  Right
> > next door to the big Vietnamese supermarket I mentioned above is a
> > "Subway" restaurant with Vietnamese employees.
>
> Right.

The Melting Pot works in strange ways...

There is a really good (Vietnamese, obviously) Saigon-style Phở
store down the street owned and staffed by Samoans. Mixed clientele;
everybody seems to like Vietnamese soup.


Dr. HotSalt

[Dr. HotSalt]

Is it joined with glue and cool water biscuits?


Dr. HotSalt

[Glenn Knickerbocker]

On Tue, 12 Jun 2012 12:17:26 -0700 (PDT), Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>On Jun 12, 2:39�pm, Glenn Knickerbocker <N...@bestweb.net> wrote:
>> and the Jefferson Valley
>> Mall? �Were single-story indoor malls like Dutchess Mall and South Hills
>> Mall (directly adjoining the Poughkeepsie Galleria) unfamiliar?
>I don't know (of) any of those. When were they built?

All were built before the Poughkeepsie Galleria. The two in Dutchess
County were the first indoor malls in the region, built in 1974.

>Dutchess Mall is somewhere in Dutchess County, but of a Jefferson
>Valley I know not. (One day I wanted to see Marist College, so I
>simply drove up 9 till I got to it.)

I'm surprised you managed to find it if the large signs for South Hills
Mall didn't catch your eye on the way into the Galleria. Dutchess Mall
is in on Route 9 in Fishkill and would also have been on your way to
Poughkeepsie.

Jefferson Valley is in the town of Yorktown.

�R "The Home Shopping Network is the New Jersey of Drugs"
http://users.bestweb.net/~notr/engel.html --marika5000

[Tim Serpas]

Frank S <fshe...@san.rr.com> wrote:
>In Mexico those DIPs are called VADOs and some of them are pretty serious
>tank-hiders.

Vatos?

W

[R H Draney]

Dr. HotSalt filted:
>
> There is a really good (Vietnamese, obviously) Saigon-style Ph=E1=BB=9F

>store down the street owned and staffed by Samoans. Mixed clientele;
>everybody seems to like Vietnamese soup.

I'm not a big soup person...how's their banh mi?...r


--
Me? Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.

[Adam Funk]

On 2012-06-12, David Dyer-Bennet wrote:

> Evan Kirshenbaum <evan.kir...@gmail.com> writes:

>> When they put the speed humps in, a lot of us were skeptical, but
>> they've done their job really well. Cut-through traffic is down,
>> speeds in front of the school are down, and those of us who take the
>> street every day to get out of the neighborhood don't feel
>> inconvenienced.
>
> Sounds like it's serving the target audience okay, then.

Good.


--
But the government always tries to coax well-known writers into the
Establishment; it makes them feel educated. [Robert Graves]

[Adam Funk]

On 2012-06-12, Glenn Knickerbocker wrote:

You mean this one? (I've never been there, so I googled it.)

http://www.crosscountycenter.com/

I see that they actually call it "Cross County Shopping Center", but I
guess your point is that the locals refer to it as a "mall".


--
XML is like violence: if it doesn't solve the problem,
use more.

[Adam Funk]

On 2012-06-13, Dr. HotSalt wrote:

> On Jun 12, 12:41 pm, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote:

>> Ha.  I agree, but I haven't personally come across a shopping mall
>> that I'd associate with a particular ethnicity (whereas I'm familar
>> with Irish bars, Chinese supermarkets, &c.).
>
> Must not be a large Asian population where you live.

Actually there are quite a lot of ethnic shops & people in South
Yorkshire, just not ethnic shopping malls.


--
Master Foo said: "A man who mistakes secrets for knowledge is like
a man who, seeking light, hugs a candle so closely that he smothers
it and burns his hand." --- Eric Raymond

[Adam Funk]

On 2012-06-12, David Dyer-Bennet wrote:

> Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> writes:
>
>> On 2012-06-09, David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
>>
>>> Evan Kirshenbaum <evan.kir...@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>>> We have speed humps on one of the streets near my house, with signs
>>>> announcing the speed (25 mph) they're designed for. For those of us
>>>> who use that street a lot, it's always frustrating driving behind
>>>> somebody who feels the need to treat them like speed bumps and brake
>>>> to a crawl before each one.
>>>
>>> Basically, when people fuck up their streets deliberately, I do
>>> everything in my power to express my displeasure. Making the street
>>> less useful is one of the basic tactics. I try to squeal my tires going
>>> around the corners in "tank trap" neighborhoods, too.
>>
>>
>> Why can't you just treat other people's villages & neighbourhoods with
>> respect instead of driving antisocially?
>
> Why can't they, rather than making anti-social modifications to the
> streets? They don't own the streets out front of their houses any more
> than I do out front of mine; those are public spaces.

They have the right to peace & quiet. If people treated other
people's residential areas properly, instead of as racetracks &
shortcuts off the main roads where commuters belong, then traffic
calming wouldn't be necessary.


--
"Gonzo, is that the contract from the devil?"
"No, Kermit, it's worse than that. This is the bill from special
effects."

[Peter T. Daniels]

We certainly didn't used to.

[Glenn Knickerbocker]

On Wed, 13 Jun 2012 11:20:52 +0100, Adam Funk wrote:
>I see that they actually call it "Cross County Shopping Center", but I
>guess your point is that the locals refer to it as a "mall".

No, my point was that I mistakenly thought it *was* one.

�R http://users.bestweb.net/~notr/arkville.html
"Doesn't that shred your buns?" --T.M. Pederson

[Adam Funk]

On 2012-06-13, Glenn Knickerbocker wrote:

> On Wed, 13 Jun 2012 11:20:52 +0100, Adam Funk wrote:
>>I see that they actually call it "Cross County Shopping Center", but I
>>guess your point is that the locals refer to it as a "mall".
>
> No, my point was that I mistakenly thought it *was* one.

Got it this time.


--
A lot of people never use their intiative because no-one
told them to. --- Banksy

[Skitt]

Oy! You probably even didn't went there.

--
Skitt (SF Bay Area)
http://come.to/skitt

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Jun 13, 9:28 am, Glenn Knickerbocker <N...@bestweb.net> wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Jun 2012 11:20:52 +0100, Adam Funk wrote:

> >I see that they actually call it "Cross County Shopping Center", but I
> >guess your point is that the locals refer to it as a "mall".
>
> No, my point was that I mistakenly thought it *was* one.

If Edens Plaza is a mall (and the locals certainly call it one), then
so is Cross County, even though the locals don't -- they're
topologically very similar.

[Glenn Knickerbocker]

On 6/13/2012 12:50 PM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> If Edens Plaza is a mall (and the locals certainly call it one),

Do they call it *a* mall, or do they call it *the* mall? When you have
only one of something, it doesn't always matter how well it fits the
generic concept. Someone in downtown Poughkeepsie might have walked to
the mall (back before Main Street was reopened), but might still have
said that the City didn't have a mall, that the Main Mall was just an
open-air mall.

�R

[David Dyer-Bennet]

Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> writes:

> On 2012-06-12, David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
>
>> Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> writes:
>>
>>> On 2012-06-09, David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
>>>
>>>> Evan Kirshenbaum <evan.kir...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>
>>>>> We have speed humps on one of the streets near my house, with signs
>>>>> announcing the speed (25 mph) they're designed for. For those of us
>>>>> who use that street a lot, it's always frustrating driving behind
>>>>> somebody who feels the need to treat them like speed bumps and brake
>>>>> to a crawl before each one.
>>>>
>>>> Basically, when people fuck up their streets deliberately, I do
>>>> everything in my power to express my displeasure. Making the street
>>>> less useful is one of the basic tactics. I try to squeal my tires going
>>>> around the corners in "tank trap" neighborhoods, too.
>>>
>>>
>>> Why can't you just treat other people's villages & neighbourhoods with
>>> respect instead of driving antisocially?
>>
>> Why can't they, rather than making anti-social modifications to the
>> streets? They don't own the streets out front of their houses any more
>> than I do out front of mine; those are public spaces.
>
> They have the right to peace & quiet. If people treated other
> people's residential areas properly, instead of as racetracks &
> shortcuts off the main roads where commuters belong, then traffic
> calming wouldn't be necessary.

These people who think they have a right to peace and quiet tend to be
the ones who fire up their lawnmowers at 8am on a weekend.

[David Dyer-Bennet]

I watched friends lost much of the value of their house because the city
installed tank traps, making it nearly unreachable except by people who
knew the neighborhood well. The whole neighborhood went to hell,
basically, probably because of lack of people keeping an eye on things
from passing cars.

[David Dyer-Bennet]

tony cooper <tony.co...@gmail.com> writes:

> On Tue, 12 Jun 2012 08:27:29 -0700, Evan Kirshenbaum
> <evan.kir...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>>tony cooper <tony.co...@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> The word "mall" is debatably correct as used by Peter. Not wrong, but
>>> not really right unless it is a large, free-standing, complex of
>>> stores of many different kinds. A "mall" is usually anchored by one
>>> or more large department stores like Macy's, JC Penny, Sears, etc.
>>>
>>> The smaller configurations are what I might call a "strip center" or a
>>> "shopping plaza". They might have one large store and several shops
>>> in one connected building.
>>

>>Those are, indeed, "strip malls" out here in California, although it
>>would be a bit unusual to drop the "strip" (which carries the
>>stress).
>

> I don't know why I omitted "strip mall". It's certainly a common term
> here. It's usually a series of individual stores in a building built
> in a straight line or an ell-shape with one large parking lot. In
> Florida, all the entrances face directly to outside.

Out here, a regular mall is *indoors*, and that's very very important,
most of the summer and all of the winter.

> Many of them have "storefront churches" as tenants. Small membership
> churches, usually evangelical, rent the spaces when they can't justify
> a building of their own.

Probably a good deal for the property owner, too, lots of open retail
space right now.

[David Dyer-Bennet]

"Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> writes:

> On Jun 12, 1:39�pm, Les Cargill <lcargil...@comcast.com> wrote:
>> Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:

>> > tony cooper <tony.cooper...@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>> >> The word "mall" is debatably correct as used by Peter. �Not wrong, but
>> >> not really right unless it is a large, free-standing, complex of
>> >> stores of many different kinds. �A "mall" is usually anchored by one
>> >> or more large department stores like Macy's, JC Penny, Sears, etc.
>>
>> >> The smaller configurations are what I might call a "strip center" or a
>> >> "shopping plaza". �They might have one large store and several shops
>> >> in one connected building.
>>
>> > Those are, indeed, "strip malls" out here in California, although it
>> > would be a bit unusual to drop the "strip" (which carries the
>> > stress).
>>

>> If I read tony right, this would be conversion of an actual mall to
>> more like a strip mall. The stores all only have exterior doors after
>> the conversion, and there's no common area/food court.
>>
>> http://www.simon.com/mall/FloorPlan.aspx?id=221
>>
>> Richardson Square used to be a regular mall.
>
> You're suggesting that an "actual mall" or a "regular mall" has to
> have a certain architectural configuration?
>

> In both New York [where the first one was: Cross County Shopping
> Center] and Chicago [e.g. Edens Plaza], the older shopping centers/
> malls are _not_ humunguous single buildings with an anchor at each
> end, dozens of shops lining corridors, and a central food court.

Here in Minneapolis, where the first enclosed shopping center was built
(Southdale, still one of the primary ones in the area), "mall" pretty
much means an enclosed space with stores in it. You can't go hang out
at the other kinds.

[Mike L]

I've asked before what chain of thought arrived at the idea of calling
such a place "a mall". There's no resemblance to either Pall Mall or
The Mall in London; and they don't rhyme with "hall", at that.

--
Mike.

[Mike L]

"Why do you hate America?"

--
Mike.

[bar...@bookpro.com]

On Wed, 13 Jun 2012 14:05:51 -0500, David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net>

wrote:

>Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> writes:
>>
>> They have the right to peace & quiet. If people treated other
>> people's residential areas properly, instead of as racetracks &
>> shortcuts off the main roads where commuters belong, then traffic
>> calming wouldn't be necessary.
>
>These people who think they have a right to peace and quiet tend to be
>the ones who fire up their lawnmowers at 8am on a weekend.

Please post some reputable evidence for this claim. Or are you just
making these up as you go because you don't have any rational
responses?

BW