REFUTING A JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

[AGAINST GODLESS SOCIALISM]

>
> Since Jehovah's Witnesses cannot abide according to the New
> Testament then they cannot
> be considered Christian.

On the contrary, they go by the NT to the letter, and are many times
criticized for doing so. For example Jesus said at Mt 5:44,

"But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute
you," (NASB)

Thus when a politician says to kill your enemies, JW's won't comply.
They must obey God as their ruler, rather than men. (Acts 5:29) Most
professed Christian religions support and/or engage in wars, thus
violating Jesus' direct command at Mt 5:44. JW's are put in prison or
even killed for not participating in their country's wars. That is
what happened to them in Germany during WWII. They were put in prison
here in the USA.

Thus if you have relatives living outside the USA, you will never have
to worry about JW's killing them on the battlefield, since they remain
neutral as to this world's carnal wars.

No, you won't find a more obedient religious group obeying Jesus'
commands, than the JW's.

James
John 4:23,24
www.jw.org

Sorry, you are wrong since you are not suffering for Jesus Christ.

“Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say allkinds
of evil against you falsely for My sake. 12Rejoice and beexceedingly
glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so theypersecuted the
prophets who were before you.


Matthew 5:11-12
>
> truthandgrace.com

[curtjester1]

On Jun 16, 6:24 pm, AGAINST GODLESS SOCIALISM <mormoni...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> > Since Jehovah's Witnesses cannot abide according to the New
> > Testament then they cannot
> > be considered Christian.
>
> On the contrary, they go by the NT to the letter, and are many times
> criticized for doing so. For example Jesus said at Mt 5:44,
>
> "But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute
> you," (NASB)
>
> Thus when a politician says to kill your enemies, JW's won't comply.
> They must obey God as their ruler, rather than men. (Acts 5:29) Most
> professed Christian religions support and/or engage in wars, thus
> violating Jesus' direct command at Mt 5:44. JW's are put in prison or
> even killed for not participating in their country's wars. That is
> what happened to them in Germany during WWII. They were put in prison
> here in the USA.
>
> Thus if you have relatives living outside the USA, you will never have
> to worry about JW's killing them on the battlefield, since they remain
> neutral as to this world's carnal wars.
>
> No, you won't find a more obedient religious group obeying Jesus'
> commands, than the JW's.
>
> James
> John 4:23,24www.jw.org
>
> Sorry, you are wrong since you are not suffering for Jesus Christ.
>

Yes, we are. We are obedient to his words to "love your enemies."

One can read Matt. 10:18,19 about true Christians being delivered up
before kings and governors. Why? because they are doing God's will by
preaching the good news in two's from house to house like the
instructions Jesus gave us in this chapter. Those Christians like
early Christians don't go to war, and are delivered up before counsels
to give reason for their actions. And they have God's spirit because
they don't even have to rehearse what they have to say Matt. 10:19.
Read also Mark 13:9 and Matt. 24:9

> “Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say allkinds
> of evil against you falsely for My sake. 12Rejoice and beexceedingly
> glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so theypersecuted the
> prophets who were before you.
>
> Matthew 5:11-12
>
>

Unfortunately, false Christians find a way to justify their actions,
and do disobey the Christ and do things like go to war or find
justified violence for their lives. They are living in a false
relgious world called Babylon the Great. According to the Bible we
must flee from an organization of people like that for Rev. 18:4 says
"to get out of her my people if you don't want to share in her
plagues"

Jehovah's Witnesses have been persecuted for their upholding Christ's
words, and we find comfort even to the face of death for the promises
we have in the real life that we will never have in this one. Many
suffered death in the concentration camps and in many parts of the
world for taking their stand for the Christ. Why don't Christians do
that around the world? Because they "are of the world."

CJ

>
>
>
> > truthandgrace.com

[Greg Carr]

Amen to that. Become a JW now and be saved or just go to a meeting at
the local Kingdom Hall to check it out.

[AGAINST GODLESS SOCIALISM]

jws do not do everything in the name of Jesus Christ. Colossians 3:17
jws are not Jesus witnesses. Acts 1:8
jws are not suffering specifically for Jesus Christ. Matthew 5:11
jws do not bow their knees now to Jesus Christ in worship. Philippians 2:10
jws do not have a testimony of Jesus Christ. Revelation 1:2

truthandgrace.com

[Greg Carr]

On Tuesday, June 18, 2013 4:52:23 PM UTC-7, AGAINST GODLESS SOCIALISM wrote:
> jws do not do everything in the name of Jesus Christ. Colossians 3:17

And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him. JWs are constantly praying in the name of Jesus and Jesus is frequently mentioned in the literature.

>
> jws are not Jesus witnesses. Acts 1:8

But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and.

If they changed the name would you join.

>
> jws are not suffering specifically for Jesus Christ. Matthew 5:11

Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake.

And I supposse you are suffering. Who exactly is suffering for Christ in 2013. I can think of the 700 brothers imprisoned in South Korea for refusing to join the army. There are other nations that arrest and detain Witnesses.

>
> jws do not bow their knees now to Jesus Christ in worship. Philippians 2:10

So what they pray in the Kingdom Hall standing up. Some of the older parishioners and those with bad knees would be unable to rise up again. Im sure many JWs in the privacy of their own home do bow down.

>
> jws do not have a testimony of Jesus Christ. Revelation 1:2
>
>

> Revelation 1:1-2
New International Version (NIV)
Prologue

1 The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Don`t see what this has to do with the Witnesses not having a testimony of Jesus. Witnesses quote Jesus extensively and see him as their saviour.

What church do you attend

[curtj...@hotmail.com]

On Tuesday, June 18, 2013 7:52:23 PM UTC-4, AGAINST GODLESS SOCIALISM wrote:
> jws do not do everything in the name of Jesus Christ. Colossians 3:17
>

Colossians 3:17

King James Version (KJV)

17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

Actually we do because Jesus is our means of salvation as devised his God and Father. There is nothing we don't want to emulate in every aspect of our lives. Would you not give thanks to the God and Father because you do "all" in the name of Jesus? Pity, if you do, as you would be neglecting God, and letting Jesus usurp that position to leave God out the picture.

> jws are not Jesus witnesses. Acts 1:8
>

Yes we are. Just as in Rev. 7 and Rev. 14, we give the correct witness owing up to's...."Salvation we owe to God and to the Lamb.".......

> jws are not suffering specifically for Jesus Christ. Matthew 5:11
>

They identify themselves as Christians, Christian witnesses of Jehovah and when their detractors and persecutors menace their Christian beliefs and lifestyle; why are they not suffering because of their stand for Jesus Christ?

> jws do not bow their knees now to Jesus Christ in worship. Philippians 2:10
>

Of course not, as Jesus worshiped God and taught his followers to...Mark 10:16 He never asked people to worship him or pray to him. Why do people have to distort the Scriptures to make it look like he should be worshiped, and have God relegated to being a non-entity and pushed to the side?

> jws do not have a testimony of Jesus Christ. Revelation 1:2
>
>

Since we have the backing that "God gave Jesus" in Rev 1:1, why would be not be ready to jump on the testimony of Jesus? It is the JW's who do not let one word of Jesus go unnoticed or unheeded, yet people who over exalt Jesus' position, do exactly that, look away to Jesus's words when they become inconvenient to do so? e.g "love your enemies"....

CJ

[AGAINST GODLESS SOCIALISM]

>
> > Sorry, you are wrong since you are not suffering for Jesus Christ.
>
> Yes, we are.  We are obedient to his words to "love your enemies."
>
> One can read Matt. 10:18,19 about true Christians being delivered up
> before kings and governors.  Why? because they are doing God's will by
> preaching the good news in two's from house to house like the
> instructions Jesus gave us in this chapter.  Those Christians like
> early Christians don't go to war, and are delivered up before counsels
> to give reason for their actions.  And they have God's spirit because
> they don't even have to rehearse what they have to say Matt. 10:19.
> Read also Mark 13:9 and Matt. 24:9
>

Sorry, Jehovah Witnesses are not suffering for the name of Jesus
Christ. Start reading entire chapters of the Holy Bible instead of
cartoon magazines.

And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to
the end will be saved.
Matthew 10:22

> > > truthandgrace.com

[AGAINST GODLESS SOCIALISM]

On Jun 18, 10:46 pm, curtjest...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, June 18, 2013 7:52:23 PM UTC-4, AGAINST GODLESS SOCIALISM wrote:
> > jws do not do everything in the name of Jesus Christ. Colossians 3:17
>
> Colossians 3:17
>
> King James Version (KJV)
>
> 17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

Why are you suddenly quoting from the KJV of 1759? Why not update?
And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord
Jesus, giving thanks to God (who? English 101) the Father through Him.
Colossians 3:17

>
> Actually we do because Jesus is our means of salvation as devised his God and Father.  There is nothing we don't want to emulate in every aspect of our lives.  Would you not give thanks to the God and Father because you do "all" in the name of Jesus?  Pity, if you do, as you would be neglecting God, and letting Jesus usurp that position to leave God out the picture.

Liars will not inherit the kingdom of God. Revelation 22:15

>
> > jws are not Jesus witnesses. Acts 1:8
>
> Yes we are.  Just as in Rev. 7 and Rev. 14, we give the correct witness owing up to's...."Salvation we owe to God and to the Lamb.".......

Jehovah Witnesses are preaching an interpretation of what they think
the kingdom of God will be. What does your cartoon magazines say on
the front cover?

Liars will not inherit the kingdom of God. Revelation 22:15.

>
> > jws are not suffering specifically for Jesus Christ. Matthew 5:11
>
> They identify themselves as Christians, Christian witnesses of Jehovah and when their detractors and persecutors menace their Christian beliefs and lifestyle; why are they not suffering because of their stand for Jesus Christ?

Suffering for a lifestyle of suits and ties and distributing cartoon
magazines is not suffering for the proclamation of Jesus Christ.

Liars will not inherit the kingdom of God. Revelation 22:15.

>
> > jws do not bow their knees now to Jesus Christ in worship. Philippians 2:10
>
> Of course not, as Jesus worshiped God and taught his followers to...Mark 10:16  He never asked people to worship him or pray to him.  Why do people have to distort the Scriptures to make it look like he should be worshiped, and have God relegated to being a non-entity and pushed to the side?

Then you will be bowing your knees to Jesus Christ in judgment.

Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which
is above every name, 10that at the name of Jesus every knee should
bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the
earth, 11and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is
Lord, to the glory of God (who? English 101) the Father. Philippians
2:9-11.

>
> > jws do not have a testimony of Jesus Christ. Revelation 1:2
>
> Since we have the backing that "God gave Jesus" in Rev 1:1, why would be not be ready to jump on the testimony of Jesus?  It is the JW's who do not let one word of Jesus go unnoticed or unheeded, yet people who over exalt Jesus' position, do exactly that, look away to Jesus's words when they become inconvenient to do so?  e.g "love your enemies"....

Jehovah's Witnesses will never gain eternal life.

And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples,
which are not written in this book; 31but these are written that you
may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that
believing you may have life in His name. John 20:30-31.
>
> CJ
>
>
>
>
truthandgrace.com/

[AGAINST GODLESS SOCIALISM]

>
> > jws are not suffering specifically for Jesus Christ. Matthew 5:11
>
> Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake.
>
> And I supposse you are suffering. Who exactly is suffering for Christ in 2013. I can think of the 700 brothers imprisoned in South Korea for refusing to join the army. There are other nations that arrest and detain Witnesses.
>
>
>

Obviously you don't realize that millions of Christians are suffering
under the rule of Muslim dictators. But then again your cartoon
magazine is never critical of Islam as Satan does not want his
religions bashing each other.

truthandgrace.com/ISLAM.htm

[Greg Carr]

On Jun 19, 5:18 pm, AGAINST GODLESS SOCIALISM <mormoni...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

And in those nations where Christians are sufffering JWs suffer also.

[AGAINST GODLESS SOCIALISM]

> Sorry, you are wrong again as Paul's letter to Titus has nothing to
> do with religion. Paul commanded Titus to organize the existing
> churches specifically on the island of Crete via the appointment of
> elders. The Christian faith is not limited to just one island in
> context.

So then according to your logic,we are not to make applications to ourselves from Paul's writings to the Romans? No, the Bible says ALL scripture is inspired of God, regardless where it was addressed to. 2 Ti 3:16,

"All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness." (NAB)

James
John 4:23,24 (and the truth is...John 14:6)
www.jw.org


Obviously, you disregard vast portions of Scripture and never apply them to yourself continually quoting verses out of context.

But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us,through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the HolySpirit, 6whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Titus 3:4-7.

Jehovah's Witnesses will never acknowledge that both the Father and the Son are the Savior.

I, even I, am the Lord,
And besides Me there is no savior.
Isaiah 43:11
Simple connections within Scripture are never seen by brainwashed cult members.

truthandgrace.com

[curtj...@hotmail.com]

On Wednesday, June 19, 2013 7:58:44 PM UTC-4, AGAINST GODLESS SOCIALISM wrote:
> >
>
> > > Sorry, you are wrong since you are not suffering for Jesus Christ.
>
> >
>
> > Yes, we are.  We are obedient to his words to "love your enemies."
>
> >
>
> > One can read Matt. 10:18,19 about true Christians being delivered up
>
> > before kings and governors.  Why? because they are doing God's will by
>
> > preaching the good news in two's from house to house like the
>
> > instructions Jesus gave us in this chapter.  Those Christians like
>
> > early Christians don't go to war, and are delivered up before counsels
>
> > to give reason for their actions.  And they have God's spirit because
>
> > they don't even have to rehearse what they have to say Matt. 10:19.
>
> > Read also Mark 13:9 and Matt. 24:9
>
> >
>
>
>
> Sorry, Jehovah Witnesses are not suffering for the name of Jesus
>
> Christ. Start reading entire chapters of the Holy Bible instead of
>
> cartoon magazines.
>
>

I quoted scriptures, and you deny the scriptures I quoted, and falsely accuse we are not suffering for Jesus' name. That's a false accusation and a lie. And when you have to make a point by making a lie, it makes one a liar.

>
> And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to
>
> the end will be saved.
>
> Matthew 10:22
>
>

And JW's are hated becaue of their Christian stances, by not having allegiance to earthly kingdoms when God's kingdom is a Biblical requirement, and for all the Christian fruits of the spirit that Jesus spoke about, the Christendom refuses to incorporate in their lives. JW's are taking in all what Jesus said, not part, and are enduring be doing what Jesus said to do, either preaching wise or obedience to the Christ's way of life. Christendom does neither. And since it is a way of life til death, we are enduring. Christendom is not. They falsely claim they are saved and have no need for any endurance to be judged by.

CJ



>
> > > > truthandgrace.com

[curtj...@hotmail.com]

On Wednesday, June 19, 2013 8:14:04 PM UTC-4, AGAINST GODLESS SOCIALISM wrote:
> On Jun 18, 10:46 pm, curtjest...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > On Tuesday, June 18, 2013 7:52:23 PM UTC-4, AGAINST GODLESS SOCIALISM wrote:
>
> > > jws do not do everything in the name of Jesus Christ. Colossians 3:17
>
> >
>
> > Colossians 3:17
>
> >
>
> > King James Version (KJV)
>
> >
>
> > 17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.
>
>
>
> Why are you suddenly quoting from the KJV of 1759? Why not update?
>
> And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord
>
> Jesus, giving thanks to God (who? English 101) the Father through Him.
>
> Colossians 3:17
>
>

Because we are answering you scripture you are trying to accuse on. We could quote the Bible used before the KJV of 1607 to show that the KJV was not a God-diected project and was promoted by a King to get in the middle or relgious disputes, but we are above that. You stated we must do ALL in the name of the Lord, and so we ask, why is it necessary then to give thanks to God (who you want to relegate as a non person, or an unnecessary being.)?

>
> >
>
> > Actually we do because Jesus is our means of salvation as devised his God and Father.  There is nothing we don't want to emulate in every aspect of our lives.  Would you not give thanks to the God and Father because you do "all" in the name of Jesus?  Pity, if you do, as you would be neglecting God, and letting Jesus usurp that position to leave God out the picture.
>
>
>
> Liars will not inherit the kingdom of God. Revelation 22:15
>
>

I state the truth, and we do you accuse of being a Liar? Without any reason?

>
> >
>
> > > jws are not Jesus witnesses. Acts 1:8
>
> >
>
> > Yes we are.  Just as in Rev. 7 and Rev. 14, we give the correct witness owing up to's...."Salvation we owe to God and to the Lamb.".......
>
>
>
> Jehovah Witnesses are preaching an interpretation of what they think
>
> the kingdom of God will be. What does your cartoon magazines say on
>
> the front cover?
>
>

Why not stick with the subject and respond to the Scripture? Salvation we owe to God AND to the Lamb? I am not quoting a magazine, but the Bible.

>
> Liars will not inherit the kingdom of God. Revelation 22:15.
>
>

We trust God will judge us not liars, and Christendom such.

>
> >
>
> > > jws are not suffering specifically for Jesus Christ. Matthew 5:11
>
> >
>
> > They identify themselves as Christians, Christian witnesses of Jehovah and when their detractors and persecutors menace their Christian beliefs and lifestyle; why are they not suffering because of their stand for Jesus Christ?
>
>
>
> Suffering for a lifestyle of suits and ties and distributing cartoon
>
> magazines is not suffering for the proclamation of Jesus Christ.
>
>

We would distribute words of the Bible nude if that were the God-directed protocol. We are only doing what Matt. 10 instructs us to do as far as Jesus' instructions were given. Does Christendom go to a house as directed? No, Do they do what the instructor Jesus said to do when they got to a house? No.

>
> Liars will not inherit the kingdom of God. Revelation 22:15.
>
>

Disobeyers of Jesus' words won't.

>
> >
>
> > > jws do not bow their knees now to Jesus Christ in worship. Philippians 2:10
>
> >
>
> > Of course not, as Jesus worshiped God and taught his followers to...Mark 10:16  He never asked people to worship him or pray to him.  Why do people have to distort the Scriptures to make it look like he should be worshiped, and have God relegated to being a non-entity and pushed to the side?
>
>
>
> Then you will be bowing your knees to Jesus Christ in judgment.
>
>

We don't judge, we let the means given by God, judge. That will be through his Son, and his chosen kings and priests. Rev. 1:6

>
> Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which
>
> is above every name, 10that at the name of Jesus every knee should
>
> bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the
>
> earth, 11and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is
>
> Lord, to the glory of God (who? English 101) the Father. Philippians
>
> 2:9-11.
>
>

Yes, and don't forget to Jesus' God and Father, Jehovah, his glory.

>
> >
>
> > > jws do not have a testimony of Jesus Christ. Revelation 1:2
>
> >
>
> > Since we have the backing that "God gave Jesus" in Rev 1:1, why would be not be ready to jump on the testimony of Jesus?  It is the JW's who do not let one word of Jesus go unnoticed or unheeded, yet people who over exalt Jesus' position, do exactly that, look away to Jesus's words when they become inconvenient to do so?  e.g "love your enemies"....
>
>
>
> Jehovah's Witnesses will never gain eternal life.
>
>

You are not one to judge. One ones who God has given that to personally will do so. That has not happened to you or anyone in Christendom. Rom, 8:17

>
> And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples,
>
> which are not written in this book; 31but these are written that you
>
> may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that
>
> believing you may have life in His name. John 20:30-31.
>

And the demons believe in Jesus and his name. It's how you have faith and works to that name, go the glory of God the Father, that matters.

CJ

> >
>
> > CJ
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> truthandgrace.com/

[curtj...@hotmail.com]

"the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one" It's always going to be that way, UNTIL there is a God-directed change. That is when Jesus is installed as king, then the last days sign(s) coming true as foretold; then the
Great Tribulation when God puts it in their hearts (Rev 17:17), then God's War where judgment has been meted out to his divine justice. Then the kingdoms of the earth will be destroyed like God wants..Dan 2:44...which will pave the way for God's kingdom to completely take over earth's affairs.

None of your worldly take on the how the earth's political nuances will have anything to do with that.

CJ

>
> truthandgrace.com/ISLAM.htm

[curtj...@hotmail.com]

On Thursday, June 20, 2013 7:57:48 PM UTC-4, AGAINST GODLESS SOCIALISM wrote:
> > Sorry, you are wrong again as Paul's letter to Titus has nothing to
>
> > do with religion. Paul commanded Titus to organize the existing
>
> > churches specifically on the island of Crete via the appointment of
>
> > elders. The Christian faith is not limited to just one island in
>
> > context.
>
>
>
> So then according to your logic,we are not to make applications to ourselves from Paul's writings to the Romans? No, the Bible says ALL scripture is inspired of God, regardless where it was addressed to. 2 Ti 3:16,
>
>
>
> "All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness." (NAB)
>
>
>
> James
>
> John 4:23,24 (and the truth is...John 14:6)
>
> www.jw.org
>
>
>
>
>
> Obviously, you disregard vast portions of Scripture and never apply them to yourself continually quoting verses out of context.
>
>
>
> But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us,through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the HolySpirit, 6whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
>
> Titus 3:4-7.
>
>
>
> Jehovah's Witnesses will never acknowledge that both the Father and the Son are the Savior.
>
>

I just did, which you refuse to acknowledge in Rev. 7, and Rev. 14..."Salavation we owe to God, AND to the Lamb.".....

>
> I, even I, am the Lord,
>
> And besides Me there is no savior.
>
> Isaiah 43:11
>

Jesus was not a savior then.

> Simple connections within Scripture are never seen by brainwashed cult members.
>
>

We are astute followers of God's Word, and obedience espcially to the words of Jesus. Christendom is not and needs blantant, false accusatins to try and sway their members. Propaganda will not ever be tolerated by our God of Truth, and his chief champion and supporter of his God, Jesus.

CJ

>
> truthandgrace.com

[AGAINST GODLESS SOCIALISM]

> Obviously, you disregard vast portions of Scripture and never
> apply them to yourself continually quoting verses out of context.
>
> But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man
> appeared, 5not by
> works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His
> mercy He saved
> us,through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the
> HolySpirit, 6whom He poured
> out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7that having
> been justified by His
> grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal
> life.
> Titus 3:4-7.
> Jehovah's Witnesses will never acknowledge that both the Father
> and the Son are the Savior.

>You are in error. They do acknowlege that since that is what the Scriptures teach. (but they don't teach the post-Biblical Trinity)

Try understanding the word "and" or English 101 and notice equality being expressed.
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all. Amen. 2 Corinthians 13:14.

>The OT scriptures above make it clear who the "Savior" is, it is Jehovah God. For unless He sent his Son to die for mankind, there would be no hope for us.

Note: Whenever you find YHWH 'elohim in the OT it means that God is a plurality of persons since the singular form of 'elohim is 'elowah. But the cult organization babylon watchtower would never teach its followers these facts.

Now it is time to come into the NT and understand progressive revelation.

>So what does it mean when the word "Savior" is also applied to God's
son, Jesus?

Since Jesus Christ is holy and without sin He does not need to be saved. Cult members can never understand context.
For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted aswe are, yet without sin. Hebrews 4:15.

>Jesus himself said that his God, Jehovah, was also his savior. He 5:7
says,

" In the days of his flesh [Christ] offered up supplications and also
petitions to the One who was able to save him out of death, with strong outcries and tears, and he was favorably heard for his godly fear. "

Jehovah's Witnesses will never understand that Jesus Christ had two distinct natures. First, He was 100% human. Thus His humanity was saved and was resurrected. That is why Hebrews 5:7 says "In the days of his flesh."
Now as they said these things, Jesus Himself stood in themidst of them, and said to them, “Peace to you.” 37But they wereterrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit. 38AndHe said to them, “Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arisein your hearts? 39Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself.Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones asyou see I have.”
Luke 24:38-39.

>Also Ps 28:8 says,
" Jehovah is a strength to his people,
And he is a stronghold of the grand salvation of his anointed one."

Jehovah's Witnesses will never understand that Jesus Christ had two distinct natures. Second, He was 100% God. This He is the author of salvation.
And having been perfected, He becamethe author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9. (why did you stop at just verse 7?)

>Jehovah's provision for salvation was his son. Acts 5:31, " God exalted this one as Chief Agent and Savior to his right hand, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins."

Thus Jesus can properly be called "Savior" even though he is acting as
an agent of his Father, Jehovah.

Sorry, you are eternally wrong as Jesus Christ is defined by the Apostle Paul as THE SAVIOR. Yes, you are in disobedience to God since babylon watchtower has convinced you that all Christians will not be in heaven.
For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21who will transform our lowly body that it may beconformed to His glorious body, according to the working bywhich He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.
Philippians 3:20-21.

>Please note this. The name of "Jesus" which was given by angelic
direction, actually means, "Jehovah is Salvation" This name tells us
that Jehovah is the source of Salvation which is carried out through
Jesus. So we see the Father and Son spoken together as our Salvation. Titus 2:11-13,

Yes, the Father and Son together is the Christian Savior.
My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all (EVIL); and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30I and My Father are one (GOD).”
John 10:27-30

>"For the undeserved kindness of God which brings salvation to all sorts of men has been manifested, 12 instructing us to repudiate ungodliness and worldly desires and to live with soundness of mind and righteousness and godly devotion amid this present system of things, 13
while we wait for the happy hope and glorious manifestation of the great God and of [the] Savior of us, Christ Jesus,"

Note: babylon watchtower has twisted Scripture by declaring that the Father will be manifested by inserting words that do not belong in Scripture and ends up twisting it.
No one has seen God at any time.The only begotten ◙ Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him. John 1:18.

>Also Titus 3:4-6,

" However, when the kindness and the love for man on the part of our
Savior, God, was manifested, 5 owing to no works in righteousness that
we had performed, but according to his mercy he saved us through the
bath that brought us to life and through the making of us new by holy
spirit. 6 This [spirit] he poured out richly upon us through Jesus
Christ our Savior,"

>There is no part of a mysterious Trinity here. The word 'Trinity' is not found in the Bible and was
not defined until men defined it at the
Council of Nicea in 325 A.D.

Note: This is a stupid statement above. Since the word "BIBLE" is not in the Bible then using babylon watchtower reasoning, the Bible does not exist.

However just reading Scripture one must realize that three Persons are being talked about and the Greek word for Spirit refers strictly to a person.
“But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, Hewill testify of Me." John 15:27

>Thus the Bible does not teach that Jesus was Jehovah, or was a God-man, but Jesus had to be equal to Adam in order to be a corresponding ransom. Adam was not a God-man, but was only a man, who was perfect in the beginning. Jesus also had to be a perfect man of corresponding value. (1 Cor 15:45; 1 Ti 2:5,6)

Sorry, you are absolutely wrong by saying Jesus Christ is equal to Adam and damnation is upon you. First restoration was far more than the original lost.
“If a man steals an ox or a sheep, and slaughters it or sells it, he shall restore five oxen for an ox and four sheep for a sheep." Exodus 22:1.

Second, Jesus Christ as God created Adam.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing wasmade that was made. 4In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not ◙ comprehend it. John 1:1-5.

Sadly, Jehovah Witnesses are in spiritual darkness and do not comprehend that they need to bow their hearts and knees to Jesus Christ.

>James
John 4:23,24 (and the truth is ...John 14:6)

truthandgrace.com

> I, even I, am the Lord,
> And besides Me there is no savior.
> Isaiah 43:11

[curtj...@hotmail.com]

On Saturday, June 22, 2013 12:54:34 AM UTC-4, AGAINST GODLESS SOCIALISM wrote:
> > Obviously, you disregard vast portions of Scripture and never
>
> > apply them to yourself continually quoting verses out of context.
>
> >
>
> > But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man
>
> > appeared, 5not by
>
> > works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His
>
> > mercy He saved
>
> > us,through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the
>
> > HolySpirit, 6whom He poured
>
> > out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7that having
>
> > been justified by His
>
> > grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal
>
> > life.
>
> > Titus 3:4-7.
>
> > Jehovah's Witnesses will never acknowledge that both the Father
>
> > and the Son are the Savior.
>
>
>
> >You are in error. They do acknowlege that since that is what the Scriptures teach. (but they don't teach the post-Biblical Trinity)
>
>
>
> Try understanding the word "and" or English 101 and notice equality being expressed.
>

What was said was easily understood, therefore this remark makes no sense for one, and is unnecessary.

> The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all. Amen. 2 Corinthians 13:14.
>
>

It's a nice scripture and has a world of meaning, but it has nothing to do with a theory of a trinity.

>
> >The OT scriptures above make it clear who the "Savior" is, it is Jehovah God. For unless He sent his Son to die for mankind, there would be no hope for us.
>
>

True.

>
> Note: Whenever you find YHWH 'elohim in the OT it means that God is a plurality of persons since the singular form of 'elohim is 'elowah. But the cult organization babylon watchtower would never teach its followers these facts.
>
>

Is the consonants used for Yeshua, in the same boat? See, they had to add the vowels here, and yet you feel comfortable to translsate it to the word Jesus. Why the hypocrisy?

>
> Now it is time to come into the NT and understand progressive revelation.
>
>

Typical, to try to use 'bigtime' words to make 'theory' and 'understanding' The Bible doesn't work that way.

>
> >So what does it mean when the word "Savior" is also applied to God's
>
> son, Jesus?
>
>
>
> Since Jesus Christ is holy and without sin He does not need to be saved. Cult members can never understand context.
>

Yes, he did have to be saved. Jehovah wouldn't have had to say he was "pleased" at Jesus' baptism. Obviously he was doing well in Jehovah's eyes to be looked at in such high regard at his progress toward doing God's will and living a sinless life at that point.

> For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted aswe are, yet without sin. Hebrews 4:15.
>
>

No, but now after Jesus' death and victory he can be used as a status of a Priest as Hebrews 7 would tell anyone.

>
> >Jesus himself said that his God, Jehovah, was also his savior. He 5:7
>
> says,
>
>
>
> " In the days of his flesh [Christ] offered up supplications and also
>
> petitions to the One who was able to save him out of death, with strong outcries and tears, and he was favorably heard for his godly fear. "
>
>

Yes, very good.

>
> Jehovah's Witnesses will never understand that Jesus Christ had two distinct natures. First, He was 100% human. Thus His humanity was saved and was resurrected. That is why Hebrews 5:7 says "In the days of his flesh."
>

We understand that he was flesh, and when resurrected he was spirit. That's all one needs to know.

> Now as they said these things, Jesus Himself stood in themidst of them, and said to them, “Peace to you.” 37But they wereterrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit. 38AndHe said to them, “Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arisein your hearts? 39Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself.Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones asyou see I have.”
>
> Luke 24:38-39.
>

But he was a spirit. He wasn't the same as they had seen before. He had to performa a miracle to make it appear fleshly so as to give them faith and comfort. Paul also confirms this when speaking of Jesus after the resurrection, to one being like an apparation (a ghostly appearance).

>
>
> >Also Ps 28:8 says,
>
> " Jehovah is a strength to his people,
>
> And he is a stronghold of the grand salvation of his anointed one."
>
>
>
> Jehovah's Witnesses will never understand that Jesus Christ had two distinct natures. Second, He was 100% God. This He is the author of salvation.
>

He could never be God. He was created (Proverbs 8:22-30), and dependent upon God for doing God's will. He could not do anything with his own initative as John brings out. John also says no one can see God, and live. Yet many saw Jesus. He was God's most prized son (angel) Gen 6:4, Heb. 1. He has the keys to the abyss. Rev. 1:18, Rev. 20:1, and with his victorious life he "became better" than his fellow angels, and was destined to come in the future as God's chief angel on our behalf. I Thess. 4:16

> And having been perfected, He becamethe author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9. (why did you stop at just verse 7?)
>
>

Why is it necessary? We all understand what it means.

>
> >Jehovah's provision for salvation was his son. Acts 5:31, " God exalted this one as Chief Agent and Savior to his right hand, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins."
>
>
>
> Thus Jesus can properly be called "Savior" even though he is acting as
>
> an agent of his Father, Jehovah.
>
>

Yes, exactly.

>
> Sorry, you are eternally wrong as Jesus Christ is defined by the Apostle Paul as THE SAVIOR. Yes, you are in disobedience to God since babylon watchtower has convinced you that all Christians will not be in heaven.
>

And would you disregard God being a savior as well by Paul?

> For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21who will transform our lowly body that it may beconformed to His glorious body, according to the working bywhich He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.
>
> Philippians 3:20-21.
>
>

And why do Babylonish religions get mixed up with improper citizenship, trying to reshape and make the world to man's philosophies and political agendas? "We are not part of the world."

>
> >Please note this. The name of "Jesus" which was given by angelic
>
> direction, actually means, "Jehovah is Salvation" This name tells us
>
> that Jehovah is the source of Salvation which is carried out through
>
> Jesus. So we see the Father and Son spoken together as our Salvation. Titus 2:11-13,
>
>
>
> Yes, the Father and Son together is the Christian Savior.
>
> My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all (EVIL); and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30I and My Father are one (GOD).”
>
> John 10:27-30
>
>
>
> >"For the undeserved kindness of God which brings salvation to all sorts of men has been manifested, 12 instructing us to repudiate ungodliness and worldly desires and to live with soundness of mind and righteousness and godly devotion amid this present system of things, 13
>
> while we wait for the happy hope and glorious manifestation of the great God and of [the] Savior of us, Christ Jesus,"
>
>
>
> Note: babylon watchtower has twisted Scripture by declaring that the Father will be manifested by inserting words that do not belong in Scripture and ends up twisting it.
>
> No one has seen God at any time.The only begotten ◙ Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him. John 1:18.
>
>

And what do you have to say about that? That cannot be twisted, and yet you seem bent on doing just that.

>
> >Also Titus 3:4-6,
>
>
>
> " However, when the kindness and the love for man on the part of our
>
> Savior, God, was manifested, 5 owing to no works in righteousness that
>
> we had performed, but according to his mercy he saved us through the
>
> bath that brought us to life and through the making of us new by holy
>
> spirit. 6 This [spirit] he poured out richly upon us through Jesus
>
> Christ our Savior,"
>
>
>
> >There is no part of a mysterious Trinity here. The word 'Trinity' is not found in the Bible and was
>
> not defined until men defined it at the
>
> Council of Nicea in 325 A.D.
>
>

True. No evidence of making it a doctrine in any shape or form, Biblically or by Jesus in counciling the churches of Rev. 2 and 3, or any God-directed mandates even after the apostles has left us to fall asleep in death.

>
> Note: This is a stupid statement above. Since the word "BIBLE" is not in the Bible then using babylon watchtower reasoning, the Bible does not exist.
>
>

You can call it the Word, or the Scriptures, and it would mean the same thing. Certainly those would show a distinguished, concerted effort and defintion, protocol, and precise definition. There is none.

>
> However just reading Scripture one must realize that three Persons are being talked about and the Greek word for Spirit refers strictly to a person.
>

No, "persons" are defined by man, and not scripturally backed up.

> “But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, Hewill testify of Me." John 15:27
>
>

And of course that was true. The had lots of help with understanding and miraculous backings. It helped show this was an establishing by God, and his victorious Son, Jesus.

>
> >Thus the Bible does not teach that Jesus was Jehovah, or was a God-man, but Jesus had to be equal to Adam in order to be a corresponding ransom. Adam was not a God-man, but was only a man, who was perfect in the beginning. Jesus also had to be a perfect man of corresponding value. (1 Cor 15:45; 1 Ti 2:5,6)
>
>

True, all the way through, from Genesis to Revelation.

>
> Sorry, you are absolutely wrong by saying Jesus Christ is equal to Adam and damnation is upon you. First restoration was far more than the original lost.
>
> “If a man steals an ox or a sheep, and slaughters it or sells it, he shall restore five oxen for an ox and four sheep for a sheep." Exodus 22:1.
>
>
>
> Second, Jesus Christ as God created Adam.
>
> In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing wasmade that was made. 4In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not ◙ comprehend it. John 1:1-5.
>
>

In the beginning of what? Loose use of the Bible. Satan was sinning from the beginning, yet you won't say that he was from eternity. Beginning signfies there was a start and that there wasn't prior life to it, anyway. And someone can't be another person if they are "with" that other person. When one looks at the Bible as a whole and sees that Jehovah was fond of Jesus for creating him, and that he became his "master worker" in the Creation process, we see truth, and exactness of who Jesus is, and was.

CJ