How the WMD's were moved out of Iraq
thereactionary
Ex-Official: Russia Moved Saddam's WMD
Kenneth R. Timmerman
Sunday, Feb. 19, 2006
A top Pentagon official who was responsible for tracking Saddam
Hussein's weapons programs before and after the 2003 liberation of
Iraq, has provided the first-ever account of how Saddam Hussein
"cleaned up" his weapons of mass destruction stockpiles to prevent the
United States from discovering them.
"The short answer to the question of where the WMD Saddam bought from
the Russians went was that they went to Syria and Lebanon," former
Deputy Undersecretary of Defense John A. Shaw told an audience Saturday
at a privately sponsored "Intelligence Summit" in Alexandria, Va.
(www.intelligencesummit.org).
"They were moved by Russian Spetsnaz (special forces) units out of
uniform, that were specifically sent to Iraq to move the weaponry and
eradicate any evidence of its existence," he said.
Shaw has dealt with weapons-related issues and export controls as a
U.S. government official for 30 years, and was serving as deputy
undersecretary of defense for international technology security when
the events he described today occurred.
He called the evacuation of Saddam's WMD stockpiles "a
well-orchestrated campaign using two neighboring client states with
which the Russian leadership had a long time security relationship."
Shaw was initially tapped to make an inventory of Saddam's conventional
weapons stockpiles, based on intelligence estimates of arms deals he
had concluded with the former Soviet Union, China and France.
He estimated that Saddam had amassed 100 million tons of munitions -
roughly 60 percent of the entire U.S. arsenal. "The origins of these
weapons were Russian, Chinese and French in declining order of
magnitude, with the Russians holding the lion's share and the Chinese
just edging out the French for second place."
But as Shaw's office increasingly got involved in ongoing intelligence
to identify Iraqi weapons programs before the war, he also got "a flow
of information from British contacts on the ground at the Syrian border
and from London" via non-U.S. government contacts.
"The intelligence included multiple sitings of truck convoys, convoys
going north to the Syrian border and returning empty," he said.
Shaw worked closely with Julian Walker, a former British ambassador who
had decades of experience in Iraq, and an unnamed Ukranian-American who
was directly plugged in to the head of Ukraine's intelligence service.
The Ukrainians were eager to provide the United States with documents
from their own archives on Soviet arms transfers to Iraq and on ongoing
Russian assistance to Saddam, to thank America for its help in securing
Ukraine's independence from the Soviet Union, Shaw said.
In addition to the convoys heading to Syria, Shaw said his contacts
"provided information about steel drums with painted warnings that had
been moved to a cellar of a hospital in Beirut."
But when Shaw passed on his information to the Defense Intelligence
Agency (DIA) and others within the U.S. intelligence community, he was
stunned by their response.
"My report on the convoys was brushed off as 'Israeli
disinformation,'" he said.
One month later, Shaw learned that the DIA general counsel complained
to his own superiors that Shaw had eaten from the DIA "rice bowl." It
was a Washington euphemism that meant he had commited the unpardonable
sin of violating another agency's turf.
The CIA responded in even more diabolical fashion. "They trashed one of
my Brits and tried to declare him persona non grata to the intelligence
community," Shaw said. "We got constant indicators that Langley was
aggressively trying to discredit both my Ukranian-American and me in
Kiev," in addition to his other sources.
But Shaw's information had not originated from a casual contact. His
Ukranian-American aid was a personal friend of David Nicholas, a
Western ambassador in Kiev, and of Igor Smesko, head of Ukrainian
intelligence.
Smesko had been a military attaché in Washington in the early 1990s
when Ukraine first became independent and Dick Cheney was secretary of
defense. "Smesko had told Cheney that when Ukraine became free of
Russia he wanted to show his friendship for the United States."
Helping out on Iraq provided him with that occasion.
"Smesko had gotten to know Gen. James Clapper, now director of the
Geospacial Intelligence Agency, but then head of DIA," Shaw said.
But it was Shaw's own friendship to the head of Britain's MI6 that
brought it all together during a two-day meeting in London that
included Smeshko's people, the MI6 contingent, and Clapper, who had
been deputized by George Tenet to help work the issue of what happened
to Iraq's WMD stockpiles.
In the end, here is what Shaw learned:
# In December 2002, former Russian intelligence chief Yevgeni Primakov,
a KGB general with long-standing ties to Saddam, came to Iraq and
stayed until just before the U.S.-led invasion in March 2003.
# Primakov supervised the execution of long-standing secret agreements,
signed between Iraqi intelligence and the Russian GRU (military
intelligence), that provided for clean-up operations to be conducted by
Russian and Iraqi military personnel to remove WMDs, production
materials and technical documentation from Iraq, so the regime could
announce that Iraq was "WMD free."
# Shaw said that this type GRU operation, known as "Sarandar," or
"emergency exit," has long been familiar to U.S. intelligence officials
from Soviet-bloc defectors as standard GRU practice.
# In addition to the truck convoys, which carried Iraqi WMD to Syria
and Lebanon in February and March 2003 "two Russian ships set sail from
the (Iraqi) port of Umm Qasr headed for the Indian Ocean," where Shaw
believes they "deep-sixed" additional stockpiles of Iraqi WMD from
flooded bunkers in southern Iraq that were later discovered by U.S.
military intelligence personnel.
# The Russian "clean-up" operation was entrusted to a combination of
GRU and Spetsnaz troops and Russian military and civilian personnel in
Iraq "under the command of two experienced ex-Soviet generals,
Colonel-General Vladislav Achatov and Colonel-General Igor Maltsev,
both retired and posing as civilian commercial consultants."
# Washington Times reporter Bill Gertz reported on Oct. 30, 2004, that
Achatov and Maltsev had been photographed receiving medals from Iraqi
Defense Minister Sultan Hashim Ahmed in a Baghdad building bombed by
U.S. cruise missiles during the first U.S. air raids in early March
2003.
# Shaw says he leaked the information about the two Russian generals
and the clean-up operation to Gertz in October 2004 in an effort to
"push back" against claims by Democrats that were orchestrated with CBS
News to embarrass President Bush just one week before the November 2004
presidential election. The press sprang bogus claims that 377 tons of
high explosives of use to Iraq's nuclear weapons program had "gone
missing" after the U.S.-led liberation of Iraq, while ignoring
intelligence of the Russian-orchestrated evacuation of Iraqi WMDs.
# The two Russian generals "had visited Baghdad no fewer than 20 times
in the preceding five to six years," Shaw revealed. U.S. intelligence
knew "the identity and strength of the various Spetsnaz units, their
dates of entry and exit in Iraq, and the fact that the effort (to clean
up Iraq's WMD stockpiles) with a planning conference in Baku from which
they flew to Baghdad."
# The Baku conference, chaired by Russian Minister of Emergency
Situations Sergei Shoigu, "laid out the plans for the Sarandar clean-up
effort so that Shoigu could leave after the keynote speech for Baghdad
to orchestrate the planning for the disposal of the WMD."
# Subsequent intelligence reports showed that Russian Spetsnaz
operatives "were now changing to civilian clothes from military/GRU
garb," Shaw said. "The Russian denial of my revelations in late October
2004 included the statement that "only Russian civilians remained in
Baghdad." That was the "only true statement" the Russians made, Shaw
ironized.
The evacuation of Saddam's WMD to Syria and Lebanon "was an entirely
controlled Russian GRU operation," Shaw said. "It was the brainchild of
General Yevgenuy Primakov."
The goal of the clean-up was "to erase all trace of Russian
involvement" in Saddam's WMD programs, and "was a masterpiece of
military camouflage and deception."
Just as astonishing as the Russian clean-up operation were efforts by
Bush administration appointees, including Defense Department spokesman
Laurence DiRita, to smear Shaw and to cover up the intelligence
information he brought to light.
"Larry DiRita made sure that this story would never grow legs," Shaw
said. "He whispered sotto voce [quietly] to journalists that there was
no substance to my information and that it was the product of an
unbalanced mind."
Shaw suggested that the answer of why the Bush administration had
systematically "ignored Russia's involvement" in evacuating Saddam's
WMD stockpiles "could be much bigger than anyone has thought," but
declined to speculate what exactly was involved.
Retired Air Force Lt. Gen. Thomas McInerney was less reticent. He
thought the reason was Iran.
"With Iran moving faster than anyone thought in its nuclear programs,"
he told NewsMax, "the administration needed the Russians, the Chinese
and the French, and was not interested in information that would make
them look bad."
McInerney agreed that there was "clear evidence" that Saddam had WMD.
"Jack Shaw showed when it left Iraq, and how."
Former Undersecretary of Defense Richard Perle, a strong supporter of
the war against Saddam, blasted the CIA for orchestrating a smear
campaign against the Bush White House and the war in Iraq.
"The CIA has been at war with the Bush administration almost from the
beginning," he said in a keynote speech at the Intelligence Summit on
Saturday.
He singled out recent comments by Paul Pillar, a former top CIA Middle
East analyst, alleging that the Bush White House "cherry-picked"
intelligence to make the case for war in Iraq.
"Mr. Pillar was in a very senior position and was able to make his
views known, if that is indeed what he believed," Perle said.
"He (Pillar) briefed senior policy officials before the start of the
Iraq war in 2003. If he had had reservations about the war, he could
have voiced them at that time." But according to officials briefed by
Pillar, Perle said, he never did.
Even more inexplicable, Perle said, were the millions of documents
"that remain untranslated" among those seized from Saddam Hussein's
intelligence services.
"I think the intelligence community does not want them to be
exploited," he said.
Among those documents, presented Saturday at the conference by former
FBI translator Bill Tierney, were transcripts of Saddam's palace
conversations with top aides in which he discussed ongoing nuclear
weapons plans in 2000, well after the U.N. arms inspectors believed he
had ceased all nuclear weapons work.
"What was most disturbing in those tapes," Tierney said, "was the fact
that the individuals briefing Saddam were totally unknown to the U.N.
Special Commission."
In addition, Tierney said, the plasma uranium programs Saddam discussed
with his aids as ongoing operations in 2000 had been dismissed as "old
programs" disbanded years earlier, according to the final CIA report on
Iraq's weapons programs, presented in 2004 by the Iraq Survey Group.
"When I first heard those tapes" about the uranium plasma program, "it
completely floored me," Tierney said.
torresD
Part One
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=461187809452836609
Part Two
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=863208674021515498
Part Three
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2324388902129396093&q=the+power+of+nightmares
Loose Change 2nd Edition
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5137581991288263801&q=loose+change
Foxnews - Special Report - Brit Hume
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article7545.htm
9/11 Dutch Documentary
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article11222.htm
9/11 Loose Change
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2023320890224991194&q=loose+change
MTRP™
> Ex-Official: Russia Moved Saddam's WMD
> Kenneth R. Timmerman
> Sunday, Feb. 19, 2006
> A top Pentagon official who was responsible for tracking Saddam
> Hussein's weapons programs before and after the 2003 liberation of
> Iraq, has provided the first-ever account of how Saddam Hussein
> "cleaned up" his weapons of mass destruction stockpiles to prevent the
> United States from discovering them.
> "The short answer to the question of where the WMD Saddam bought from
> the Russians went was that they went to Syria and Lebanon," former
> Deputy Undersecretary of Defense John A. Shaw told an audience Saturday
> at a privately sponsored "Intelligence Summit" in Alexandria, Va.
> (www.intelligencesummit.org).
> "They were moved by Russian Spetsnaz (special forces) units out of
> uniform, that were specifically sent to Iraq to move the weaponry and
> eradicate any evidence of its existence," he said.
LOL³. I bet it was Rummy & Co disguised as Russian Spetsnaz. After all
Rummy (not the Russians) supplied Saddy with WMD during Iran-Iraq war
... but hey, hasn't Saddy spent the rest of Rummy's WMD on Kurds in the
aftermath of Stormin' Norman's war of 1991?
thereactionary
legend. Russian has always been the biggest weapons supplier to Iraq.
Do some research moron.
torresD
MTRP™
> Rummy didn't supply Saddy with any WMD's. That's left wing urban
> legend.
That's plain & well-known fact, dumbo. And hey, Osama was Bush's buddy.
MTRP™
> thereactionary wrote:
> > Rummy didn't supply Saddy with any WMD's. That's left wing urban
> > legend.
> That's plain & well-known fact, dumbo.
P.S.
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0613-03.htm
http://www.sundayherald.com/print42648
thereactionary
Hey microbrain, did you read your own article. After your dim wit,
left wing author asserts that Rummy sold Saddam WMD's he goes through
the whole history and doesn't supply even a shred of evidence - even
second hand evidence - that Rummy or the US sold Saddam WMD's. In fact
the article is glaringly missing any information about such a sale.
The whole thing rambles on about how we knew that Saddam was using
them. So did the rest of the world. So what? And the assertion that
Saddam was buying most of his conventional weapons from Britian and the
US is also false. The "well known facts" are that he bought them from
Russia, China, and France. All of the tanks we took out during Gulf 1
and Gulf 2 were Russian. All of the weapons stores that we found in
Iraq were Russian, Chinese, and French. The assertion of this moonbat
author is no better than your own.
So WHERE THE FUCK IS THE EVIDENCE.
lurker
"thereactionary" <thereac...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:1140656559.7...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
LOL You do not believe what you say right? Heheheh
vkar...@yahoo.com
> http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2006/2/18/233023.shtml?s=lh&s=br
>
> Ex-Official: Russia Moved Saddam's WMD
>
Not quite. Russia did move some of the 100 million or so nuclear
weapons in the Iraqi stockpile. However, most of these weapons were
moved by the other Commie dictatorships like France, Germany, Panama,
Venezuella, Haiti, Yugoslavia, Macedonia, Greece, Afghanistan, etc,
etc, with most of WMDs going to Cuba, which buried them in the mass
graves in Tonkin and Rakac.
It is just amazing what conspiratorial lenghts the rest of the World
would go to to make Ameircan officials look like Goebbels-style
liars...
vkar...@yahoo.com
>
> So WHERE THE FUCK IS THE EVIDENCE.
>
And WHERE THE FUCK IS your own EVIDENCE? As in:
thereactionary wrote:
>
> Ex-Official: Russia Moved Saddam's WMD
>
> A top Pentagon official who was responsible for tracking Saddam
> Hussein's weapons programs before and after the 2003 liberation of
> Iraq...
Oh yes, the true American liberation of Iraq from Iraqi occupation!
And that's why the vast majority of Iraqis and Arabs in general love us
so much for this liberation!
>
> has provided the first-ever account of how Saddam Hussein
> "cleaned up" his weapons of mass destruction stockpiles to prevent the
> United States from discovering them.
>
> "The short answer to the question of where the WMD Saddam bought from
> the Russians went was that they went to Syria and Lebanon," former
> Deputy Undersecretary of Defense John A. Shaw told an audience Saturday
> at a privately sponsored "Intelligence Summit" in Alexandria, Va.
>
Oh I see. Your evidence is based exclusively on a speech made by an
ex-Pentagon oficial at some private party (I assume drinking and quail
shooting was involved?), closed to the public and journalists.
And why would a man, who was "responsible for tracking Saddam
Hussein's weapons programs before the 2003 "liberation" of Iraq", have
any incentive to lie about the fact that these weapons did indeed exist
and were simply moved to another country?
Look, had it been the case that he and his superiors told the whole
World that Saddamhad such weapons to track, and if no weapons were
found after the invasion.... oops... I meant, the liberation - then
yes, the manwould definittely want to invent this idiotic story to
cover his ass and from being brought to the Haague tribunal in hte near
future.
But no US official ever claimed that Saddam had any WMDs, did they? Not
even the poor scapegoat Colin Powell.
And since no such lies were ever told, then there was nothing to cover
up by inventing the story about the Rusisans moving those invisible
WMDs, right? Makes perfect sense, right?
This John A. Shaw character had nothing to gain by lying, didn't he? We
should take his words on faith!
Sort of like when our Attorney General recently and unabashedly told
the US Senate that Bush engaged in electronic surveilance of Americans
because he was simply following in the footsteps of George Washington
and Abe Lincoln, who engaged in (and I quote) "a lot of electronic
surveilance". Yes, Washington and Lincoln. Although he didn't specify
which electronic medium George Washington "surveyeled": cellphones,
satellite communications or email.
Heck, the average Americans are too dumb and brainwashed to see that
their officials are lying through the teeth to them.
MTRP™
> All of the weapons stores that we found in
> Iraq were Russian, Chinese, and French.
LOL³. "You" found plain nothing, moron. Saddy was clean during GW's
moronic war - only most notorious GM yanks of your brainless ilk still
think otherwise. Besides the WMD he used earlier used against Iranians
and Kurds were delivered by Rummy. BTW the US 911 anthrax attacks were
home made, too. Welcome in the Fourth Reich! Also enjoy this
http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,1564,1413907,00.html
Intelli Gent Design
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/03/03/bush.india.fri/index.html
"MTRPT" <Mir.To...@gmx.de> wrote in message
news:1141380121....@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
thereactionary wrote:
> All of the weapons stores that we found in
> Iraq were Russian, Chinese, and French.
LOLł. "You" found plain nothing, moron. Saddy was clean during GW's
vjp...@at.biostrategist.dot.dot.com
January 26, 2006 edition of The New York Sun
Iraq's WMD Secreted in Syria, Sada Says
By IRA STOLL - Staff Reporter of the Sun
January 26, 2006
The man who served as the no. 2 official in Saddam Hussein's air force
says Iraq moved weapons of mass destruction into Syria before the war
by loading the weapons into civilian aircraft in which the passenger
seats were removed.
The Iraqi general, Georges Sada, makes the charges in a new book,
"[106]Saddam's Secrets," released this week. He detailed the transfers
in an interview yesterday with The New York Sun.
"There are weapons of mass destruction gone out from Iraq to Syria,
and they must be found and returned to safe hands," Mr. Sada said. "I
am confident they were taken over."
Mr. Sada's comments come just more than a month after Israel's top
general during Operation Iraqi Freedom, Moshe Yaalon, told the Sun
that Saddam "transferred the chemical agents from Iraq to Syria."
Democrats have made the absence of stockpiles of weapons of mass
destruction in Iraq a theme in their criticism of the Bush
administration's decision to go to war in 2003. And President Bush
himself has conceded much of the point; in a televised prime-time
address to Americans last month, he said, "It is true that many
nations believed that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction. But much
of the intelligence turned out to be wrong."
- = -
Vasos-Peter John Panagiotopoulos II, Columbia'81+, Bio$trategist
BachMozart ReaganQuayle EvrytanoKastorian
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/vjp2/vasos.htm
---{Nothing herein constitutes advice. Everything fully disclaimed.}---
[Urb sprawl confounds terror] [Remorse begets zeal] [Windows is for Bimbos]
[Homeland Security means private firearms not lazy obstructive guards]
Crusader
<vkar...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1141356695.9...@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
thereactionary
and Kurds were delivered by Rummy. "
I just showed you that your article about Rummy had zero evidence that
he delivered any WMD's to Saddam. Congradulations, it only took you
five seconds to forget dumk fuck.
Now try again. Rummy delivered no WMD's to Saddam. You have no
evidence of Rummy delivering any WMDs to Saddam. Your article gives no
evidence of Rummy delivering any WMDs to Saddam. Wake the fuck up!
thereactionary
It's a liberation of Iraq from an unelected dictatorship microbrain.
Are you so stupid that you consider it to be "liberated" when Saddam
was running the country?
"But no US official ever claimed that Saddam had any WMDs, did they?
Not
even the poor scapegoat Colin Powell. "
Are you living with your head up your ass. All kinds of US officials
claimed Saddam had WMD's, including left wingers like Kerry and
Clinton.
As far a Shaw goes, he makes lots of statements of fact that can be
checked - like the existence of photos of Russian generals getting
medals from Saddam just before the invasion; and pictures of truck
convoys going to Syria. Hell the French, German and British
intelligence all thought that Saddam had WMD's. It's much more likely
that he moved them than that all those intelligence services were wrong
- even without Shaw's information.
silvio
estás lo bastante idiotizado para creerte ésta mierda .
Eres un pobre payyaso dedícate a buscar tu padre entre todas las
posibilidades.
" torresD" <torr...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:W0WKf.2221$5M6....@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
kuff (Isaac Adams)
thereactionary wrote:
> http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2006/2/18/233023.shtml?s=lh&s=br
>
> ...
>
> Among those documents, presented Saturday at the conference by former
> FBI translator Bill Tierney, were transcripts of Saddam's palace
> conversations with top aides in which he discussed ongoing nuclear
> weapons plans in 2000, well after the U.N. arms inspectors believed he
> had ceased all nuclear weapons work.
>
> "What was most disturbing in those tapes," Tierney said, "was the fact
> that the individuals briefing Saddam were totally unknown to the U.N.
> Special Commission."
>
> In addition, Tierney said, the plasma uranium programs Saddam discussed
> with his aids as ongoing operations in 2000 had been dismissed as "old
> programs" disbanded years earlier, according to the final CIA report on
> Iraq's weapons programs, presented in 2004 by the Iraq Survey Group.
>
> "When I first heard those tapes" about the uranium plasma program, "it
> completely floored me," Tierney said.
http://www.nationalreview.com/york/york200602200720.asp
William Tierney, the former United Nations weapons inspector who
unveiled the so-called "Saddam Tapes" at a conference in Arlington,
Virginia, Saturday, told National Review Online that God directed him
to weapons sites in Iraq and that his belief in the importance of one
particular site was strengthened when a friend told him that she had a
vision of the site in a dream. ...
Afterward, in a talk with NRO, Tierney addressed comments he made in
February 2003 on "Coast to Coast AM," a radio program devoted to
paranormal phenomena. On the program, hosted by George Noory, (who took
over from predecessor Art Bell), Tierney discussed a possible
nuclear-related facility in Iraq. A description of Tierney's remarks on
the "Coast to Coast AM" website says:
<<Tierney's methods of ascertaining this location were rather
unconventional. "I would ask God and just get a sense if something was
valid or not, and then know if I needed to pursue it," he said. His
assessments through prayer were then confirmed to him by a friend's
clairvoyant dream, where he was able to find the location on a map.
"Everything she said lined up. This place meets the criteria," Tierney
said of the power generator plant near the Tigris River that he
believes is actually a cover for a secret uranium facility.>> ...
vkar...@yahoo.com
> "Oh yes, the true American liberation of Iraq from Iraqi occupation! "
>
> It's a liberation of Iraq from an unelected dictatorship microbrain.
> Are you so stupid that you consider it to be "liberated" when Saddam
> was running the country?
>
In my opinion, Iraqi people suffered greatly under Saddam. But their
suffffering was nothing compared to the suffering and mayhem that they
have experienced ever since the US-British invasion and are
experiencing right now. Not to mention more than 1,000 American deaths
(I stopped counting when it reached 1,000 back in November or so) and
$250 billion (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) in taxpayer money already wasted on this
insane invasion. My own children are not going to get any decent
education and will work as toilet cleaners to some rich Chinese
engineers just because USA has no money to pay for educating its own
children! For heavens sake, California has fired most of its teachers
(leaving only bureuacrats intact) because it has no money. My son is
finishing 2nd grade and they are now being taught how to add digits.
That is, 2 + 3 = 5 and 3 + 6 = 9. They aren't allowed to add 6 and 5
because the sum is in two digits. They aren't allowed to discuss books
because half the class can't read. While the 2nd grade children in
Korea, Russia and China are doing algebraic equations and Euclidian
geometry...
>
> "But no US official ever claimed that Saddam had any WMDs, did they?
> Not even the poor scapegoat Colin Powell. "
>
> Are you living with your head up your ass. All kinds of US officials
> claimed Saddam had WMD's, including left wingers like Kerry and
> Clinton.
>
> As far a Shaw goes, he makes lots of statements of fact that can be
> checked - like the existence of photos of Russian generals getting
> medals from Saddam just before the invasion; and pictures of truck
> convoys going to Syria. Hell the French, German and British
> intelligence all thought that Saddam had WMD's. It's much more likely
> that he moved them than that all those intelligence services were wrong
> - even without Shaw's information.
>
Well, we'll never know what the intelligence services REALLY thought.
But as far as the "photos of Russian generals getting medals from
Saddam just before the invasion" go - THIS we can check. Please give us
the links to these photos, the names of Russian generals who received
the medals and the dates when they received them.
Where did you get this idea? I suspect that the idea that some Russian
generals received medals in Baghdad after they had moved WMDs from Iraq
to Syria is yet another Tonkin- or Racak-style CIA invention. For one
thing, there was no time between the time the WMDs were supposedly
moved and the time when the US started its aggression for the Russian
generals to travel to Baghdad to get these medals.
Look, there is a modus operandi presumption in jurisprudence. If a boy
cries "wolf" too many times - nobody is going to believe him the next
time.
Goebbels and the Nazis perfected the art of modern forgeries and
provocations by forging a Reichstag fire in order to suppress democracy
and staging a fake Polish "attack" on Germany in order to start WWII.
After WWII, USA borrowed this practice from our noble NATO ally
Germany. First, there was a staged second Tonkin "attack" from the
Vietnamese.
After nearly a decade of post-Viet Nam sanity, USA reverted to its old
ways and claimed that something was extremely dangerous to the lives of
the 12 American medical students in Grenada and staged a full-blown
invasion Grenada allegedly to protect these 12 students.
Next came the brutal invasion of Panama for wanting to raise Panama
Canal fees and for Noriega threatening to go public about his role in
the CIA-Contra scandal, ending in the deaths of hundreds of innocent
Panamanian civilians and the illegal kidnapping of their legally
elected President. Then USA invaded Haiti and replaced the brutal
Haitian dictators with an even more brutal one.
Next - the genocide against Serbs in Croatia, in which USA supplied
military cover for the genocidists. Some Croat genocidists are now on
trial in Haague, but where are their US sponsors?
Then came forged attacks on Sarajevo markets. Then came Bill Walker
and his staged Racak forgery; followed by the aggression against
Serbia, the bombing of civilian trains and bridges, of TV stations and
foreign embassies; followed the genocide against 200 thousand Gypsies,
Serbs and even Jews; followed by the aggression against Macedonia and
threats against Greece. When will the KLA leaders, Walker, Clinton,
and Albright be brought to Haague for these crimes against humanity?
Well, KLA leader will be in Haague sooner or later, but Walker,
Clinton, and Albright never will. Why? Because USA insists that the
Haague and other international tribunals are inherently illegal and
unjust and should not apply to the "first-class" humans like us,
Americans, but should only be applied to "sub-humans" from the Balkans
and other foreign countries, who should be subjected to "illegal and
unjust" tribunals.
After all this, who is going to believe ANYTHING that US propagandists
say?
I will bring it even closer to the matter: The very Powell speech to
the Security Council that we are talking about consisted of 2 parts.
The first part was to prove that Iraq had WMDs. And most of us,
including me, believed at the time in this premise although we found
the presented evidence to be extremely weak.
But the second part was dedicated to proving that Iraq was the major
sponsor of Al Qaeda and Bin Laden. And even lay people like myself, who
hated Saddam and wanted to justify the invasion of Iraq, knew that this
was a damn lie. An impudent lie. Because we all knew that Saddam and
Bin Laden were enemies not friends. How can such impudent lying in
front of 6 billion people all over the World be ever excused or
forgotten?!!
And look at the only evidence that Powell supplied to support this
claim of Saddam-Bin Laden alliance? Powell told us that there was this
place called Pankisi Valley. And in this Pankisi Valley, Al Qaeda was
openly manufacturing a WMD (chemical called ricin). And one of the Arab
managers of this chemical plant had undergone an eye surgery in an
Iraqi clinic. That was the whole evidence!
What Powell conveniently forgot to mention is that this Pankisi Valley
is not in Iraq but in USA's ally Republic of Georgia, and that it was
the crazy evil Georgian President Shevardnadze - the US puppet! - who
had turned his land over to Al Qaeda in order to manufacture WMDs
against Russian civilians. And the only reason why the US got upset at
their Al Qaeda friends was when these double-crossing terrorists were
caught trying to use ricin against the British and the French instead
of the Russians, as they had promised to US and Georgia. (Not to
mention that in the first place, Bin Laden and Al Qaeda were created by
the CIA to terrorize Russian people).
So, why was it Iraq and not Georgia that got invaded, bombed and
ruined? Who had more ties to Bin Laden - USA and Georgia or Iraq? In
fact, had we invaded and ruined Georgia - who would have noticed the
difference, given the 15 or so year of insane rule by USA's "friends"
like Gamsakhurdia, Shevardnadze and Saakashvili that has turned a
previously prosperous Georgia into a more desperate version of Rwanda,
where 70% of the people have no job and no money and are starving to
death.
So, given the long history of compulsive lying, given that the second
part of the Speech was a monstrous and impudent lie - who can believe
the first part of that Speech? Why would USA suddenly tell a truth?
Worse than that: there may indeed be the REAL need to bomb Iranian
nuclear facilities to save the World, but given the Iraq fiasco, given
the lies, given the non-stop history of invasions, given the
monstrosity of the Monroe Doctrine, given the monsters that we create
and foster - what foreign country (other than our puppets in Britain
and East Europe) will approve this new bombing? More than that, what US
voter/taxpayer is going to approve this new attack? Even though THIS
time we need it....
Speaking of the boy who cried "wolf"....
captain.
<vkar...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1142487419.3...@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
bombing iranian facilities will not stop their nuclear ambitions. it will
only slow them down and push them underground. so what should the world do
about it then? i wish i had an answer.
Intelli Gent Design
"captain." <spammer...@now.net> wrote in message
news:4r7Sf.1123$Zf3.734@clgrps12...
>
>
> bombing iranian facilities will not stop their nuclear ambitions. it will
> only slow them down and push them underground. so what should the world do
> about it then? i wish i had an answer.
>
>
You can't hide a nuke plant completely. They generate lots of heat that has
to go somewhere. They have to have service roads and support structures. I
would imagine Iran is pretty well photo'd by now.
Anyway, bombing stopped Saddam's nuke program and he never really got it
started back up.
vkar...@yahoo.com
But of course. Interstingly enough, when Israel did that great deed,
USA denounced it!
That's what USA should have done in the early 2000s instead of this
insane invasion: lift the brutal economic sanctions agianst Iraqi
children and elderly, but keep on bombing any suspicious facilites
that Saddam may build.
And now the criminal US leaders have turned Iraq into a disaster zone,
as in:
Iraq Edges Closer to Open Civil Warfare By STEVEN R. HURST, Associated
Press Writers
Tue Mar 14, 5:43 PM ET
BAGHDAD, Iraq - Iraqi authorities discovered at least 87 corpses -
men shot to death execution-style - as Iraq edged closer to open
civil warfare. Twenty-nine of the bodies, dressed only in underwear,
were dug out of a single grave Tuesday in a Shiite neighborhood of
Baghdad.
The bloodshed appeared to be retaliation for a bomb and mortar attack
in the Sadr City slum that killed at least 58 people and wounded more
than 200 two days earlier.
Iraq's Interior Minister Bayan Jabr, meanwhile, told The Associated
Press security officials had foiled a plot that would have put hundreds
of al-Qaida men at critical guard posts around Baghdad's heavily
fortified Green Zone, home to the U.S. and other foreign embassies, as
well as the Iraqi government.
A senior Defense Ministry official said the 421 al-Qaida fighters were
recruited to storm the U.S. and British embassies and take hostages.
Several ranking Defense Ministry officials have been jailed in the
plot, said the official, speaking on condition of anonymity because of
the sensitivity of the information.
Police began unearthing bodies early Monday, although the discoveries
were not immediately reported. The gruesome finds continued throughout
the day Tuesday, police said, marking the second wave of sectarian
retribution killings since bombers destroyed an important Shiite shrine
last month.
In the mayhem after the golden dome atop the Askariya shrine in Samarra
was destroyed on Feb. 22, more than 500 people have been killed, many
of them Sunni Muslims and their clerics. Dozens of mosques were damaged
or destroyed.
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
And what do the US criminals, who have turned Iraq into the disaster
zone and who have made it the bedrock of Al Qaeda terrorrism, say?
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
(continued)
Gen. Peter Pace, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said Iraqi
forces and civilians, as well as coalition forces, need to provide
stability to allow the new government to do its work.
"The Iraqi people themselves are standing at a crossroads," Pace said
Monday night in a speech at the Baltimore Council on Foreign Affairs,
"and they are making critical decisions for their country right now
about which road they'll take."
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Just imagine this. You live with your mother, father and siblings in a
house. It's not a great life, because your father beats up on your
mother, but it's a bearable life.
And some day thousands of huge American men with space-age guns descend
on your house, murder your mother and some of your brothers, arrest
your father on the charges of wife-beating, and destroy your house and
the furniture in it. And while you and youre siblings sit on the ruins
of your former home, hundreds of Al Qaeda criminals descend on you as
well. And what do these huge American men with space-age guns say about
protecting you from these criminals?
They say: "It's none of our buisness. Our busness is not to protect
you, orphans, but to kill your mother and prosecute/persecute your
father, and to control the oil wells on your territory. But as far as
protecting you from Al Qaeda - well, you, children, are on your own!
It's all your fault! We created Bin Laden - you fight him."
Same as in Yugosavia: first USA raped Serbia under the pretext of
bringing peace and order to Kosovo and preventing any ethnic tensions
there, but after USA won and the KLA executed its genocide against
Serbs and Gypsies in Kosovo under the US supervision - the US leaders
said: "It's not our job to keep the peace and order in Kosovo. Our job
is to sit quietly here on the porch with our weapons and our beers and
watch how the KLA monsters rape and murder Gypsies and Serbs."
Where is the Nuremberg Tribunal when we need it?
vkar...@yahoo.com
Let me add a few more sentences here:
" Our job is to sit quietly here on the porch with our weapons and our
beers and watch how the KLA monsters rape and murder Gypsies and
Serbs. The only reason for us to get involved would be if some Serbs
tried to prevent these rapes and murders. If Serbs do try to defend
their women and children - that's when we'll get involved and slaghter
these Serbs!" Just as US did in the anti-Serb genocide in Croatia....
captain.
<vkar...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1142570207.1...@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
> Let me add a few more sentences here:
>
> " Our job is to sit quietly here on the porch with our weapons and our
> beers and watch how the KLA monsters rape and murder Gypsies and
> Serbs. The only reason for us to get involved would be if some Serbs
> tried to prevent these rapes and murders. If Serbs do try to defend
> their women and children - that's when we'll get involved and slaghter
> these Serbs!" Just as US did in the anti-Serb genocide in Croatia....
>
who are you quoting?
Intelli Gent Design
Probably himself.
thereactionary
suffffering was nothing compared to the suffering and mayhem that they
have experienced ever since the US-British invasion and are
experiencing right now. "
Where do you get an ignorant idea like that. Saddam murdered 300,000
of them and they had no freedom. Now they can travel and most of them
are earning much more than they did under Saddam. Public service
employees earn 8 to 10 times as much as under Saddam. Baghdad traffic
is 3 times what it was before the war. Under Saddam their only
exposure to news was what Saddam allowed them to see. Now there are
over 250 independent newspapers.
If you looked at Germany in the middle of WWII and even for a couple of
years after, you could say that it was worse than it was under Hitler.
Does this mean that we should not have gone to war against Hitler. Why
is it that you left wing morons want to take a nation that is goind
through a transition process and pretend that it is a permanent
outcome?
"My own children are not going to get any decent
education and will work as toilet cleaners to some rich Chinese
engineers just because USA has no money to pay for educating its own
children! For heavens sake, California has fired most of its teachers
(leaving only bureuacrats intact) because it has no money."
The lack of education has nothing to do with money and everything to do
with left wing educational bureuacracies. Utah kids get some of the
best scores in the country and they do it at a fraction of the cost of
states like California and New York. The dollar amount that we spend
on education per child has gone up consistenly for decades, even after
adjusting for inflation, and the test scores have been going down over
the same period of time. If your teacher are getting laid of it is the
fault of the electorate for letting your left wing legislature fire
teachers instead of the disgusting army of bureuacrats that suck up all
of the tax money. Of course another reason that our children cannot
get an education is that the left wing teachers spend all of their time
trying to propagandize our children and none of it teaching them. We
just had an example in Colorado. We keep hearing that US kids don't
know where this nation or that nation are located on the map. It is
easy to understand why when you hear this Colorado geography teacher on
tape ranting endlessly about his hatred for Bush. And when you hear
him talk he claims that he wants to teach children "social justice".
As though he would know what it is. He is hired to teach geography,
yet no indication has ever been given, either in the tapes or in his
own discussions, that he teaches any geography at all. That's what you
get from having a left wing union teaching our children - ignorant
kids. It has nothing at all to do with money.
thereactionary
>as in:
>Iraq Edges Closer to Open Civil Warfare By STEVEN R. HURST, Associated
>Press Writers
>Tue Mar 14, 5:43 PM ET
>BAGHDAD, Iraq - Iraqi authorities discovered at least 87 corpses -
>men shot to death execution-style - as Iraq edged closer to open
>civil warfare. Twenty-nine of the bodies, dressed only in underwear,
>were dug out of a single grave Tuesday in a Shiite neighborhood of
>Baghdad.
So in your ignorant little brain the way to prevent civil war is to
have people live indefinitely under a brutal dictatorship?
>"Same as in Yugosavia: first USA raped Serbia under the pretext of
>bringing peace and order to Kosovo and preventing any ethnic tensions
>there, but after USA won and the KLA executed its genocide against
>Serbs and Gypsies in Kosovo under the US supervision - the US leaders
>said: "It's not our job to keep the peace and order in Kosovo. Our job
>is to sit quietly here on the porch with our weapons and our beers and
>watch how the KLA monsters rape and murder Gypsies and Serbs.""
You really are a fucking anti US bigot, aren't you. The peacekeeping
operation in Kosovo is now a UN operation. We are not even the major
players. This is in the back yard of the Euros and it should be their
problem, not ours. But all you do is shit on the US and no one else.
You are a really disgusting piece of American hating left wing crap
aren't you?
vkar...@yahoo.com
Whom am I quoting? I added a few new sentences to the text that I had
previously composed.
Is it really not clear?
vkar...@yahoo.com
> >And now the criminal US leaders have turned Iraq into a disaster zone,
> >as in:
>
> >Iraq Edges Closer to Open Civil Warfare By STEVEN R. HURST, Associated
> >Press Writers
> >Tue Mar 14, 5:43 PM ET
>
> >BAGHDAD, Iraq - Iraqi authorities discovered at least 87 corpses -
> >men shot to death execution-style - as Iraq edged closer to open
> >civil warfare. Twenty-nine of the bodies, dressed only in underwear,
> >were dug out of a single grave Tuesday in a Shiite neighborhood of
> >Baghdad.
>
> So in your ignorant little brain the way to prevent civil war is to
> have people live indefinitely under a brutal dictatorship?
>
> >"Same as in Yugosavia: first USA raped Serbia under the pretext of
> >bringing peace and order to Kosovo and preventing any ethnic tensions
> >there, but after USA won and the KLA executed its genocide against
> >Serbs and Gypsies in Kosovo under the US supervision - the US leaders
> >said: "It's not our job to keep the peace and order in Kosovo. Our job
> >is to sit quietly here on the porch with our weapons and our beers and
> >watch how the KLA monsters rape and murder Gypsies and Serbs.""
>
> You really are a fucking anti US bigot, aren't you. The peacekeeping
> operation in Kosovo is now a UN operation. We are not even the major
> players.
>
We aren't?!!! Are you telling me that vast majority of KFOR soldiers
aren't from NATO?!!!
>
> This is in the back yard of the Euros and it should be their
> problem, not ours. But all you do is shit on the US and no one else.
> You are a really disgusting piece of American hating left wing crap
> aren't you?
>
Stop demagoguery. To begin with, USA staged the Racak forgery. Then
they issued the Rambouillet (sp?) ultimatum in which USA demanded that
Serbs give NATO full control over all of Yugoslavia. In return, USA
promised that it would police Kosovo and prevent any further ethnic
violence there.
Serbs and Albanians refused. USA went to NATO and blackmailed the poor
Greeks into agreeing to a war of aggression that directly violated the
basic international law. Then USA and Britain under the NATO flag
waged a brutal war against Yugoslavia until the latter surrendered. So,
the victorious Americans went to the UN and pushed through exactly the
arrangement that they wanted to establish in Kosovo.
Now it turns out that this agreement, that the Americans had shoved
down the Serb throat, meant not to protect the innocent Gypsy, Serb and
Jewish civilians but instead to facilitate the very genocide against
these people.
So, who is REALLY responsible for this genocide? The "Euros" or the
Americans?
And if the US and other NATO troops wanted to do nothing to protect
Gypsies and Serbs, why didn't they allow the regular Yugoslav army to
enter Kosovo and defend those innocent civilians? I assure you that
Yugoslav soldiers would have gladly instilled peace in Kosovo that NATO
refused to instill. And if you don't like Yugoslavs - then Greeks,
Russians or Ukrainians would have gladly done too. Nothing would have
pleased Greeks, Russians and Ukrainians more than executing some
genocidists on the spot.
It's exactly like in Iraq: USA invades Iraq, destroys its police and
army, destroys its infrastructure. Because of this, Iraq turns into a
mayhem zone and a hotbed of Al Qaedism. And now USA says: "We are not
going to police this mayhem. It' s not our responsibility. It's not our
fault. It's the fault of the Euros. Or the Australians. Or the Papuans.
Or the Iraqis. Every other country is responsible for the destruction
of the Iraqi police and army, except for, us, Americans. Even though it
was us, Americans, who have destroyed and abolished the police and the
army in Iraq. "
But it IS America's responsibility. The consequences of the American
invasion of Panama - they are America's responsibility.
The horrible Aristide regime that the USA established upon its invasion
of Haiti - it's America's responsibility.
The civil war going on today in Iraq - it's America's responsibility.
The genocide against Gypsies and Serbs in Kosovo and the invasion of
Macedonia that followed the USA's aggression against Yugoslavia - it's
America's responsibility. Not Europe's as a whole. Not Papua New
Guinea's. But the specific fault of those who waged the war in the
first place. Which was, say, 80% American responsibility, 10% -
British, another 5% - German, and only 5% - other European countries.
You can't barge into a man's house, kill the man, leave his children
homeless and defenseless, but then when these children get raped - you
can't pretend that your murder of the children's father isn't
responsible for these rapes.
Well, actually, you can pretend anything you want. But there should be
a Nuremberg war tribunal to judge and punish such actions and
pretensions.
MTRP™
> Hell the French, German and British
> intelligence all thought that Saddam had WMD's.
No way. German BND kept saying that Saddam had no WMD left. That's why
German gov so vehemently opposed US invasion of Iraq, that - as BND
correctly predicted - can only strengthen Osama's and Iranian
Islamists. French and Russian sources as well as British MI6 also
denied WMD tale, although Tony BLiar kept parroting his mad US master's
voice. Israel's Mossad kept silent. All in all moronic Yanks should
blame themselves and nobody else.
vkar...@yahoo.com
> "In my opinion, Iraqi people suffered greatly under Saddam. But their
> suffffering was nothing compared to the suffering and mayhem that they
> have experienced ever since the US-British invasion and are
> experiencing right now. "
>
> Where do you get an ignorant idea like that. Saddam murdered 300,000
> of them
>
Really? Please provide the evidence.
>
> and they had no freedom.
>
Inded, they had no freedom to pillage, to burn mosques, to establish Al
Qaeda terrrosit bases, and to explode bombs. No such freedoms! But now
they do enjoy these freedoms.
But is the freedom to kill worth dying for?
Do you really think that most Iraqis would be willing to die in order
to obtain, say, unlimited freedom of speech?
Why is it that some 80% of Iraqis prefer their life under Saddam to
their life under Ameircans?
And if they do - who are you to deny them their democratic right to
choose whatever government that they want?
The Germans in 1920s enjoyed complete freedoms and democracies. And
they freely voted for the Nazis who came and abolished all freedoms.
The Palestinians just had free democratic elections. Andthey freely
elected the Hams terrorists.
In other words, many nations at many points in their development don't
value freedoms as much as, say, I do. And who am I to forcibly shove my
freedoms down their throats?
As long as they don't invade other countries the way the Nazis did
later on, I have no right to tell them what to do.
Why are my beliefs in "freedoms of speech" more valuable than, say,
Iraqi beliefs in God, Mohammed, and the Holy Scriptures?
>
> Now they can travel and most of them
> are earning much more than they did under Saddam.
>
They are? Most Iraqis have a higher standard of living than under
Saddam? It has a higher GDP? Who invented this lie?
Have you graduated from high school? Has anybody ever taught basic
arithmetic and basic economics to you?
For a country to increase its earnings, it must increase its
production, isn't it?
What is Iraq producing now that it wasn't producing before? Oil? No,
their oil fields are in ruin?
Computers? Dresses? Cars?
When was the last time you saw a car made in the "new free Iraq"? When
have you seen ANYTHING made in the "new free Iraq"?
>
> Public service
> employees earn 8 to 10 times as much as under Saddam.
>
In what currency? And what percentage of Iraqi people are now such
"public employees"?
And has anybody told you about the economic embargo that the US had
imposed on Iraq many years ago, which cut down their GDP by a factor of
50 or so?
Instead of invading Iraq, all USA had to do is lift its draconian
sanctions, and Iraq would have almost immediately become a prosperous
country.
And the oil prices would have dropped too, making us Ameircans more
prosperous as well.
>
> Baghdad traffic
> is 3 times what it was before the war.
>
Especially after the bombings, when the whole city populatuion is
trying to drive away.
>
> Under Saddam their only
> exposure to news was what Saddam allowed them to see. Now there are
> over 250 independent newspapers.
>
Well. Under Saddam they didn't have much news to report: life was
boring and predictable. But now it's highly exciting. Those Iraqis,
who are stillalive can now buy 250 different newspapers and enjoy
reading:
"http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060314/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq;_ylt=AnIIKOyA...
Iraq Edges Closer to Open Civil Warfare By STEVEN R. HURST, Associated
Press Writers Tue Mar 14, 5:43 PM ET
BAGHDAD, Iraq - Iraqi authorities discovered at least 87 corpses -
men shot to death execution-style - as Iraq edged closer to open
civil warfare. Twenty-nine of the bodies, dressed only in underwear,
were dug out of a single grave Tuesday in a Shiite neighborhood of
Baghdad.
The bloodshed appeared to be retaliation for a bomb and mortar attack
in the Sadr City slum that killed at least 58 people and wounded more
than 200 two days earlier.
Iraq's Interior Minister Bayan Jabr, meanwhile, told The Associated
Press security officials had foiled a plot that would have put hundreds
of al-Qaida men at critical guard posts around Baghdad's heavily
fortified Green Zone, home to the U.S. and other foreign embassies, as
well as the Iraqi government.
Police began unearthing bodies early Monday, although the discoveries
were not immediately reported. The gruesome finds continued throughout
the day Tuesday, police said, marking the second wave of sectarian
retribution killings since bombers destroyed an important Shiite shrine
last month.
In the mayhem after the golden dome atop the Askariya shrine in Samarra
was destroyed on Feb. 22, more than 500 people have been killed, many
of them Sunni Muslims and their clerics. Dozens of mosques were damaged
or destroyed. "
Now if reading this exciting news about mayhem, slaughters and civil
war doesn't make the Iraqi people happy, they must be thankless jerks,
undeserving our precious American attention.
Sort of reminds me of an old East German joke:
- Child, who is your mother?
- The great Communist party.
- Who is your father?
- The great Comrade Stalin.
- What do you want to be when you grow up?
- An orphan.
Or to paraphrase another od Communst joke:
An Iraqi wiseman is asked:
- Now that USA has brought peace, happiness and prosperity to Iraq,
should it bring them to Jordan and Syria as well?
- No.
- Why not?
- Such small old countries won't be able to recover from so much
happiness that will suddenly befall them.
>
> If you looked at Germany in the middle of WWII and even for a couple of
> years after, you could say that it was worse than it was under Hitler.
> Does this mean that we should not have gone to war against Hitler.
>
We didn't. We didn't declare war on Hitler. Hitler declared war on us
right after the their Japanese allies attacked us at Pearl Harbor.
And in any case, we had the right to go to war against Hitler because
Hitler had invaded other countries, not because he limited the
"exposure to news" to his fellow Germans.
>
> Why
> is it that you left wing
>
I am left wing?
>
> morons
>
I am the moron here?
>
> want to take a nation
>
I want to take a nation? I don't want to take any nation at all. I want
to leave other nations alone and beg them to leave my nation alone.
You are not aware of international law, are you?
>
> that is goind
> through a transition process and pretend that it is a permanent
> outcome?
>
> "My own children are not going to get any decent
> education and will work as toilet cleaners to some rich Chinese
> engineers just because USA has no money to pay for educating its own
> children! For heavens sake, California has fired most of its teachers
> (leaving only bureuacrats intact) because it has no money."
>
> The lack of education has nothing to do with money and everything to do
> with left wing educational bureuacracies. Utah kids get some of the
> best scores in the country and they do it at a fraction of the cost of
> states like California and New York. The dollar amount that we spend
> on education per child has gone up consistenly for decades, even after
> adjusting for inflation, and the test scores have been going down over
> the same period of time. If your teacher are getting laid of it is the
> fault of the electorate for letting your left wing legislature fire
> teachers instead of the disgusting army of bureuacrats that suck up all
> of the tax money.
>
I will be the last one to deny that what we need to lift the quality of
USA's secondary education above that of Rwanda is to force public
schools to compete against each other for the students and their
tuition checks in a free market atmosphere.
Left-wing reactionaries are as much against the idea of competition,
survival of the fittest and evolution in public education as right-wing
reactionaries are against the idea of competition, survival of the
fittest and evolution in biology.
When I was a child in the Communist Soviet Union, my parents had an
almost complete freeom to place me into any of the 1,500 of public
schools in the city of Moscow. And if they didn't like my new school,
they had the right to take me out of it and put it into any other
school, and so on. That's why I learned algebraic equations in 2nd
grade, number theory in 6th grade and integral calculus in 8th grade.
My son is finishing 2nd grade in presumably non-communist USA. The Big
Brother government bureaucrats told him exactly which pahtetic public
school he is obligated to go to. He is now studying that 2 + 6 = 8.
They promise that in 4th grade he will learn that 14 + 3 = 17, and in
9th grade he will learn fractions.
However, given that the liberals have prevented school choice from
happening for the last 50 years and will continue to do so for the next
30 years at least, we have to face the reality.
And the reality is that US is running out of education money. Here in
California our governor had to drastically cut funds for public
schools. Because of this, many teachers lost their jobs and many vital
classes were cut. The only people who didn't lose any jobs were
bureaucrats, who now outnumber teachers probably by a factor of 10 to
1, while in private schools teachers outnumber bureaucrats probably by
a factor of 20 to 1.
Since it is impossible to fight bureaucracy (at least in the short
term), I say that at least we should restore our old school funding in
order to re-hire the fired teachers.
How much will this cost? 1$1 billion? $10 billion? Whatever it is, it
is certainly far less than the $250 billion that we have already wasted
on the current Iraq war.
vkar...@yahoo.com
> >And now the criminal US leaders have turned Iraq into a disaster zone,
> >as in:
>
> >Iraq Edges Closer to Open Civil Warfare By STEVEN R. HURST, Associated
> >Press Writers
> >Tue Mar 14, 5:43 PM ET
>
> >BAGHDAD, Iraq - Iraqi authorities discovered at least 87 corpses -
> >men shot to death execution-style - as Iraq edged closer to open
> >civil warfare. Twenty-nine of the bodies, dressed only in underwear,
> >were dug out of a single grave Tuesday in a Shiite neighborhood of
> >Baghdad.
>
> So in your ignorant little brain the way to prevent civil war is to
> have people live indefinitely under a brutal dictatorship?
>
Prevent what civil war? There was no civil war in Iraq when we raped it
a couple of years ago.
Do the Iraqi people have different values than Americans? Yes, they do.
Do they have a totally different culture than Americans? Yes. Will the
same solutions that work in America work in Iraq? Of course not.
You or I may value the freedom of speech above the right to live in
health and safety. Some say "Give me freedom or give me death!".
But maybe Iraqis will say: "Take away my freedom of speech but please
spare my life!"
Who said that the latter approach is inferior to the former?
Why do you, a guy living in North America, decide what kind of
governments and freedoms the people of Iraq should or shouldn't have?
Live your own life and let Iraqis live theirs.
Are you any different from the traditional Communists who also had this
wonderful idea that the people around the World should live in this
great Communist Utopia, where everybody loves everybody else, everybody
works for the benefit of the society for 2 hours per day and paints
paintings for the rest of the day. A great fantasy! But the Communists
tried to force their idealist fantasy down the throats of many-many
nations. And instead of creating Paradise, their efforts resulted in
deaths and suffering. Because the people, whom they tried to coerce
into the Paradise, weren't ready for it. And so we got disasters like
Cambodia.
Just like the Communists who tried to shove their ideals of "equality,
fraternity, and liberty" down the throats of other nations, you want to
shove your ideals of "give me freedom or give me death" down the
throats of other nations.
And you are ready to sacrifice the lives of 50 million (or whatever) of
Iraqis in order for the surviving 5 Iraqis to live under "freedom". Why
will Iraqis need freedom if they are dead anyway? Isn't the right to
life more basic than the right to a free speech?
So why don't you do what the International Law says you should do: stop
telling other countries how to live and stop naked aggressions against
them.
And please stop pretending like the real reason why US invaded Iraq was
its concern for the freedoms of Iraqi people and not its greed for
Iraqi oil.
Because if you were REALLY concerned about the freedoms of other
peoples - why didn't you invade Chile while it was suffering under the
CIA-sponsored fascist junta?
Why don't you invade Georgia which has been oppressing Ossetians. Or
Russia which is opprerssing Chechens. Or China which is oppressing
Tibetans. Or Turkey which has been committing genocide against its own
Kurds?
>
> >"Same as in Yugoslavia: first USA raped Serbia under the pretext of
> >bringing peace and order to Kosovo and preventing any ethnic tensions
> >there, but after USA won and the KLA executed its genocide against
> >Serbs and Gypsies in Kosovo under the US supervision - the US leaders
> >said: "It's not our job to keep the peace and order in Kosovo. Our job
> >is to sit quietly here on the porch with our weapons and our beers and
> >watch how the KLA monsters rape and murder Gypsies and Serbs.""
>
> You really are a fucking anti US bigot, aren't you. The peacekeeping
> operation in Kosovo is now a UN operation. We are not even the major
> players.
>
Look. Did the Serb and Gypsy victims of the Kosovar genocide have all
their "freedoms"? Like the freedom to live? No, they didn't.
But you just told us earlier that if people in some country suffer from
a lack of freedom, then USA must interfere there to protect their
freedoms, didn't you?
Like we did in Iraq. Iraq was a "Saddam operation". But you still
invaded it in order to protect the freedoms of average Iraqis.
So, even if Kosovo were indeed "a UN operation", then why didn't you
invade Kosovo anyway in order to protect the freedoms and lives of
average Serbs and Gypsies living there?
Afterall, US had already waged one Kosovar war allegedly to protect
Albanians. Why not wage a second one to protect Slavs, Gypsies and
Jews? Or do you really believe in the Nazi doctrine that Slavs, Gypsies
and Jews are "second class sub-humans" not worthy of protection?!
>
> This is in the back yard of the Euros and it should be their
> problem, not ours.
>
And Iraq is in the "back yard" of Russians, Iranians and Saudi
Arabians. So why is it your problem and not theirs? In fact,
geographically, Iraq is much more in the backyard of our oppontents
like France and Germany than in the backyard of USA.
So what is it that makes Iraq to be in the American backyard, while
Kosovo is in the "Euro" backyard? We all know the answer: because
Iraq has lots of oil. That's why this obscure country on the
opposite end of the Globe is suddenly in "our backyard".
That's exactly how USA decides which countries to rape next: if this
rape is in the interest of oil companies and other special interest
groups - we'll do it. Otherwise - not.
I bet you can't give a logical justification for this, can you?
>
> But all you do is shit on the US and no one else.
>
I don't? Sure I do. I often criticize Albanians, Iranians, Georgians
and North Koreans. And I criticize the now defunct Soviet Communists,
and Nazi Germans, and many others.
But I have this principle: I shit on those who commit aggression
against the international law.
So if France/Denmark/Sweden/Holland invades another country - I will
gladly shit on France/Denmark/Sweden/Holland.
But the way it stands right now - 99% of all aggressions against other
countries in the World are committed by Americans. And more than half
of all the money spent in the World on weapons of death is spent by the
US government.
And it is the US government that wastes many $hundreds of billions of
dollars per year on war while denying its own children basic public
school education and cutting school funds.
That's why I shit on the US government.
>
> You are a really disgusting piece of American hating left wing crap
> aren't you?
>
No I am not. I am a right-wing libertarian.
And please try to abstain from filthy and cheap swearing and
name-calling. It makes you look even more imbecilic, deranged and
disgusting (to use your own terminology) than you actually are.
Let's just say that we have different values.
You like war. I don't.
I respect sovereignty. You don't.
I respect human life. You don't.
I understand that different countries have different cultures,
traditions and values. You don't.
I put human life above the needs of Exxon and Lockheed shareholders.
You do the opposite.
You think it is the obligation of American taxpayers to die of poverty
in order to fund corrupt politicians and the military industrial
complex. I don't.
I will die of natural causes. You will sooner or later be hanged in
Nuremberg.
You are a hypocrite. I am not.
I am a libertarian. I believe in a very small government that minds its
own business, doesn't tax its own people to death, and doesn't harass
its own citizens or foreign countries.
You are a fascist. Or, as you call yourself, "the reactionary". You
believe in a humongous government that wastes $trillions per year and
terrorizes the whole world.
Let me give you another example. A couple of months prior to 9-11 I had
a lively discussion with some left-wing fascist radio host at KGO, I
think. She spent the whole hour shitting on Israel because Israel
denied journalists access to a battle between the Israelis and
Palestinians. She was exclaiming: "What kind of a monstrous country
would deny journalists free access to information?!"
And I called and asked "Well, how is denying journalists access to a
battle any worse than what USA did in Belgrade when it bombed the TV
station there and killed 16 journalists and technicians in it?".
And she replied: "We were at war with Yugoslavia. And in the war, the
enemy journalists and radio stations are fair targets. I have to qualms
about that."
And I replied: "Well, if we were at war with Yugoslavia, then
Yugoslavia was at war with us, right?"
And she replied: "I guess so"
And I said: "Then during that time the Yugoslavs had a full right to
bomb you yourself and your own KGO station to death, right?"
And she iuttered "Opooh.." and went to a commercial.
So if some Iraqis or Yugoslavs or Panamanians or Saudi Arabians drive
their planes through our skyscraper or our TV tower tomorrow - ask
yourself: 'Did we provoke them into this? Did our invasion of their
countries and our murder of their journalists justify such actions in
their eyes?"
Consider this. To you, "freedom" is the most important thing in life.
And you will invade other countries and sponsor genocides in the name
of "freedom", whatever that term means to you.
But to Bin Laden, the "word of God" is the most important thing in
life. Then why isn't he equally justified in using violence to spread
"word of God"?
Why is your value system any better than Bin Laden's? Do you really
think that Bin Laden is less sincere in his love for "God" than you are
in your love for "Freedom"?
That's why we must insist that EVERYBODY (including Americans) stops
telling other peoples what to do.
Otherwise we shall have EVERYBODY killing everybody else in the name of
their favorite ideology, be it Communism, Equality, Democracy, Freedom,
Word of God or whatever else.
And more than that: stop pretending that Cheney and his Halliburton
actually wage these wars against the rest of the World out of
altruistic motives like "spreading freedom" or "spreading the word of
God", and not out of the greed of our oil and military companies and of
the politicians whom they own.
vkar...@yahoo.com
> January 26, 2006 edition of The New York Sun
>
> Iraq's WMD Secreted in Syria, Sada Says
>
Really? Very interesting indeed....
Can you provide any more information about these alleged WMD
secretions? Would these by any chance be related to Cheney's nocturnal
secretions?
thereactionary
thereactionary
messenger. But the problem is that there are several messengers,
including two of Saddam's former officers who have all said the same
thing. Here is an interview that also supports the previous article.
At this point there can be no doubt that Saddam did have WMD's and that
he did move them.
FP: Lt. Gen. Tom McInerney, welcome to Frontpage Interview.
McInerney: Thank you Jamie.
FP: The released audiotapes of Saddam Hussein's conversations with his
key officials are turning up more and more evidence of WMDs and the
Osama connection. The documents released by the U.S. government last
Wednesday, for instance, reveal more about the Saddam-Al Qaeda link.
Can you shed some light on this for us?
McInereny: I just reviewed this additional release of documents. This
release continues to confirm that Osama bin Laden and Al Qaeda were in
contact with Iraq intelligence for sanctuary, training, and plans for
acts of terrorism against the US and in the US.
This just supports the 12 hours of tapes we heard of Saddam Hussein's
that discussed using proxies (Al Qaeda) to attack the US with WMD i.e.
nuclear or biological. The latest release has pictures of Zarqawi while
he was in Iraq prior to our liberation. It is obvious that he was
living there as a sanctuary after he left Afghanistan. Stephen
Hayes of the Weekly Standard has done a superb job in describing this
relationship in great detail in several articles and TV appearances on
Fox News. In addition the CIA director George Tenet confirmed this
prior to the liberation of Iraq as did Under Secretary Doug Feith in a
memo on Al Qaeda's involvement with Iraq prior to hostilities.
However some people are still in denial even with the latest release as
it gets in the way of their agenda.
FP: It appears that many people also remain in denial about the WMD
issue. The released audiotapes reveal Saddam Hussein and his key
officials discussing their WMD programs from the mid-1990s onwards,
correct?
McInerney: Yes, Jamie. It was a fascinating experience to see the
transcripts of Saddam's conversations. He discussed hiding WMDs from
the UN inspectors and knowing where the inspectors were going to go in
advance. He discussed their efforts to develop Plasma Enrichment for
nuclear weapons totally unknown to the UN inspectors.
But the most telling to me was the conversation between Tariq Aziz his
foreign minister and Saddam in which they discussed having proxies
implant nuclear and biological weapons in US cities. They concluded
that Iraq would be blamed for an explosion but not biological as they
could use deception and blame US facility ( Ft Dietrick) which makes me
conclude that Iraq was responsible for the anthrax attack in US less
than 30 days after 9/11.
The FBI has not determined who did it although they tried to charge
unsuccessfully a former Ft Dietrick employee. It is obvious that we
should aggressively be translating the remaining 3,000 hours of tapes!
FP: So the evidence appears to suggest the Russians moved the WMD's
out of Iraq, correct?
McInerney: Yes -- to three locations in Syria and one in Lebanon (Beka
Valley) in the Sept - Dec 2002 time frame. This information was
provided by Jack Shaw, the former Deputy Under Secretary of Defense for
international technology security. He charged that Saddam's
stockpiles of WMDs were moved by a Russian Spetznatz team headed by
Yevgeny Primakov, the former Russian Intelligence Chief, who came to
Iraq in December 2002 to supervise the final cleanup.
Mr. Shaw found this out through a meeting in London with the head of
MI-6 (UK CIA), the Ukrainian Intelligence Chief and others in the
summer of 2003. The Ukrainians were very close and supportive of the
Russians at that time.
FP: This information destroys the Left's main arguments and
vindicates the Bush administration. Why do you think the administration
is not talking about this?
McInerney: The President is being ill served by his Intelligence staff.
In some cases the diplomats don't want the world to know this as the
three primary violators were Russia, China and France -- all permanent
members of the UN Security Council and whom they need to deal with Iran
and future contingencies in the war on terror. I assume he did not want
to trash our future "allies." However, he directed in mid-Feb that
they all be released and I understand that it is imminent.
FP: Your book instructs that we must go after the state sponsors of
terrorism in order to win the terror war. You even argue that some
nations might have to be invaded by U.S. forces. Can you talk a bit
about this strategy and what it entails?
McInerney: There existed a Web of Terror group of nations before 9/11.
They were Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan
and North Korea. Three have been removed two by regime change and Libya
voluntarily. Iran is now our most serious threat and the regime must be
changed -- but I would use the Afghanistan model using covert
operations with massive coalition air support. We should let the
Iranian people take back their country.
FP: Your thoughts on Islam?
McInerney: Islam needs a reformation just like Christianity had plus
they need a cultural renaissance to bring them into modernity. This
must come from within driven by moderate Muslims. Dr Tawfik Hamid has
just written a brilliant book 'The Roots of Jihad" that describes
our challenge. He states that Islamic Terrorism has the support of the
majority of Muslims and must be reformed to become a religion of
tolerance. Now it is a religion of intolerance. I think it will get
worse before it gets better. Al Qaeda are killing more Muslims than
coalition forces in Iraq and until the Muslim world acknowledges this
and destroys this cancer from within we will have continued conflict
that will spread. It could be catastrophic for Islam. Dr Abdurrahman
Wahid the former President of Indonesia wrote an excellent OP ED in the
Wall street Journal on December 30, 2005 describing what must be done
to defeat the Wahhabi ideology.
FP: Is Islamic extremism an ideology just like Fascism and Communism?
McInerney: Exactly and it must be fought in much the same way. The West
has not acknowledged this and consequently we have not educated our
population that it is an ideology rather than a religion. This is
confusing people because of our tolerance for the diversity of
religion.
FP: So overall, where is the central front in the terror war? Iraq? Are
we winning this war? What are we going to have to do to win it?
McInerney: Iraq is the central front on the war on terror and that is
why the insurgency is so intense. Al Qaeda is indiscriminately killing
innocent people and the Iraqi people recognize this and we are seeing
them providing much more intelligence to the coalition forces. In the
final analysis it will be the Iraqi Security Forces and the Iraqi
people who will defeat this insurgency. Hopefully Iraq will be a corner
stone for reform in the region. It will take time but it spreads like a
virus which terrifies the Extremists so much. Unfortunately the left
does not understand this.
We are winning but it is a tough fight. 50 million people are now free
in
Afghanistan and Iraq and Saddam Hussein is on trial and Osama bin Laden
is in hiding as are his aides moving every 3-6 hours. We still must
change the regimes in Syria and Iran but I would use the Afghan model
and let the Syrian and Iranian people take their countries back
assisting them covertly. In addition Saudi Arabia must stop funding the
expansion of this extreme form of Islam called Wahabiism which is
driving the Extremists with funding and ideology
FP: Tom McInerney, thank you for joining us today.
McInerney: Thank you.
thereactionary
Not only are you an anti-American bigot, but it's apparent that you are
also a conspiracy theor y lunatic. Unless you have real proof for all
of your absurd accustations, don't bother me with that kind of crap.
thereactionary
>a couple of years ago.
That's what I'm telling you microbrain. There was no civil war because
the country was living under a cruel dictatorship that would murder any
number of people required to stop any uprising. So in that empty skull
of yours, the solution to preventing a civil war is to have a
totalitarian dictatorship in place.
>Do the Iraqi people have different values than Americans? Yes, they do.
>Do they have a totally different culture than Americans? Yes. Will the
>same solutions that work in America work in Iraq? Of course not.
What do you think they are, space aliens? No one is interested in
changing their culture or values birdbrain. There is only one issue
here that is significant - do they want to select a government for
themselves or do they want to have a government forced upon them by an
insane dictator. They have already clearly shown that they want to
select their own government by going to the polls in larger numbers
than most western nations, and doing so under the threat of death.
>And Iraq is in the "back yard" of Russians, Iranians and Saudi Arabians.
The Russians were making too much money selling arms to Iraq, as were
France and China. The Iranians and Saudi Arabians had no ability to
deal with Iraq. And why would dicatorships like Iran and Saudi want to
give democracy to other countries. Man you are stupid.
>I respect sovereignty. You don't.
You are a liar. Sovereignty lies with the people. In Iraq, the people
did not have sovereignty. If sovereignty is what you get because you
have the guns to take over a place, like Saddam took over Iraq, then
hell no I don't respect it.
>I respect human life. You don't.
Again you are a liar. Saddam murdered over 300,000 of his own people.
But you are unwilling to do anything to stop him.
>I understand that different countries have different cultures, traditions and values. You don't.
Are you so stupid that you think dictatorships are a tradition and a
culture?
>Why do you, a guy living in North America, decide what kind of governments and freedoms >the people of Iraq should or shouldn't have? Live your own life and let Iraqis live theirs.
We aren't deciding for them dimwit, we are letting them elect the
leaders that they want. You are the one who wants to decide for them
by saying that they should be stuck living under a brutal dictator with
no choice.
>You think it is the obligation of American taxpayers to die of poverty
>in order to fund corrupt politicians and the military industrial
>complex. I don't.
With every word you write you show how utterly stupid you are. Compare
the military budget to the entitlements budget some time. The latter
is huge compared to the former. If we are going to go bankrupt it will
be because of all the parasites demanding that the government take care
of them. If you were a true libertarian you would understand that.
But you are lying about being a libertarian. You are just another scum
bag propagandizing left winger.
>Consider this. To you, "freedom" is the most important thing in life.
>And you will invade other countries and sponsor genocides in the name
>of "freedom", whatever that term means to you.
>But to Bin Laden, the "word of God" is the most important thing in
>life. Then why isn't he equally justified in using violence to spread
>"word of God"?
A. We do not sponsor genocide. Never have, never will. The fact that
you need to lie like that to make your point proves that you have no
point to make.
B. The system of spreading freedom allows Bin Laden to believe
anything he wants. And he can spread the word of god as much as he
wants. And it allows other religions to do the same. But Bin Laden,
if he has his way, will not allow other religions and he will allow for
no behaviour other that what is approved by Islam. The difference is
that we allow people to pick for themselves. Bin Laden does not. The
people of Iraq did not pick a dictatorship for themselves. If you are
too ignorant to understand that I pity you.
>I put human life above the needs of Exxon and Lockheed shareholders.
You are a self serving little idiot and you choose your values in order
to try to impress others with your pretentious humanitarianism. But
the second you look below the surface you see that your values are
actually destructive to humanity. But you don't care about that at
all. All you care about is patting yourself on the back and claiming
to have others best interest at heart. Large companies supply us with
the fuel, cars, food, airplanes and computers that we need. And they
provide good jobs for millions of people. You think that you can make
yourself look good by attacking them. But the evidence of history has
clearly shown that having the government do what those companies do or
overregulating those companies always leads to less jobs, and more
overall poverty. So once again, you are just trying to parade your
overinflated ego, not actually help anyone. And once again you show
that you are not a libertarian. By the way, more that 50% of the
country is a "shareholder". This includes most of our retirement
funds.
>"That's why we must insist that EVERYBODY (including Americans) stops
>telling other peoples what to do."
And how are you planing to tell the Bin Ladens and Saddam Husseins of
the world that they cannot tell others what to do. Are you going to
tell them that you insist. That should give them a big laugh.
thereactionary
By IRA STOLL - Staff Reporter of the Sun
January 26, 2006
The man who served as the no. 2 official in Saddam Hussein's air
force
says Iraq moved weapons of mass destruction into Syria before the
war
by loading the weapons into civilian aircraft in which the passenger
seats were removed.
The Iraqi general, Georges Sada, makes the charges in a new book,
"[106]Saddam's Secrets," released this week. He detailed the
transfers
in an interview yesterday with The New York Sun.
"There are weapons of mass destruction gone out from Iraq to Syria,
and they must be found and returned to safe hands," Mr. Sada said.
"I
am confident they were taken over."
Mr. Sada's comments come just more than a month after Israel's top
general during Operation Iraqi Freedom, Moshe Yaalon, told the Sun
that Saddam "transferred the chemical agents from Iraq to Syria."
Democrats have made the absence of stockpiles of weapons of mass
destruction in Iraq a theme in their criticism of the Bush
administration's decision to go to war in 2003. And President Bush
himself has conceded much of the point; in a televised prime-time
address to Americans last month, he said, "It is true that many
nations believed that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction. But
much
of the intelligence turned out to be wrong."
thereactionary
>Qaeda terrrosit bases, and to explode bombs. No such freedoms! But now
>they do enjoy these freedoms.
And there is still no such freedom microbrain. All of those things are
against the law. If you look at your own position clearly for five
seconds you can see that you are advocating brutal dictatorships as a
way to control people.
>Do you really think that most Iraqis would be willing to die in order
>to obtain, say, unlimited freedom of speech?
We are not talking about just freedom of speech microbrain. We are
talking about every freedom that we have in the US and in every other
western democracy. And yes, I think that the majority of them are
willing to take a chance that they may die if they fight for that
freedom as long as they have a decent chance of winning it. The
difference between now and before the war against Saddam, is that
before they had no chance. Just because you are a stinking little
coward who would rather live under brutal oppression than take a chance
on freedom does not mean that others have the same attitude. And
thank god that others don't have your attitude because then every
nation on the earth would be a cruel dicatorship.
>"And in any case, we had the right to go to war against Hitler because Hitler had invaded >other countries,"
So did Saddam. And then he broke the peace deal that he signed when
the war he started ended.
>The Germans in 1920s enjoyed complete freedoms and democracies. And
>they freely voted for the Nazis who came and abolished all freedoms.
>The Palestinians just had free democratic elections. Andthey freely
>elected the Hams terrorists.
Which is fine. They are allowed to elect Nazis or Hamas. But then
they also have to take responsibility for who they elected. Also, the
parties that are elected are not allowed to turn it into a "one man,
one vote, one time" situation. People must be allowed to vote
themselves out of any situation that they have voted themselves into.
>And who am I to forcibly shove my freedoms down their throats?
It's hard for me to believe how big an idiot you are. No one has to
have freedom shoved down their throat. When the Palestinians elected
Hamas they exercised their feedom. It is what they wanted. You didn't
have to shove it down their throat. When the Iraqis went in mass to
the elections they were exercising their freedom. You didn't have to
shove it down their throats. Given a choice, 98% of people will want a
say in who rules over them. You don't have to shove anything down
their throat you fucking moron. The only force that is being used by
the US is the force it takes to stop someone else from shoving it down
their throats.
>Sort of reminds me of an old East German joke:
You are even too stupid to see that your joke means to opposite of what
you think it means. It was the US fighting a cold war against Russia
that got the East Germans their freedom. And it is the US fighting
Saddam and the Islamists that has gotten the Iraqis their freedom.
Your joke makes it obvious that people wanted freedom from unelected
communist dictatorships. Your brain has become so addled by left wing
propaganda that you want to draw parallels between systems that prevent
people from choosing their own government with systems that allow no
choice. And then you try to rationalize away the value of freedom.
People like you really stink.
>Since it is impossible to fight bureaucracy (at least in the short
>term), I say that at least we should restore our old school funding in
>order to re-hire the fired teachers.
Restore the funding and the school system will just hire more
bureaucrats. Then they will tell you again that they need more
funding.
Ask yourself why Utah can get their children a much better education at
half the cost. The answer is not to allow the left wing school system
to rape you forever, it is to elect different people.
>When I was a child in the Communist Soviet Union, my parents had an
>almost complete freeom to place me into any of the 1,500 of public
>schools in the city of Moscow. And if they didn't like my new school,
>they had the right to take me out of it and put it into any other
>school, and so on.
My wife is from St. Petersburg, and she realizes that most of what she
was told in the old Soviet Union was a lie. She understands that here
life is far superior, here. And while there are still a few people
that vote communist in Russia, that number grows smaller with every
election. The same will happen in Iraq. At first there will be a lot
of people who vote for the Islamic parties. But as time goes on they
will vote more and more secular.
vkar...@yahoo.com
> vkar...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > thereactionary wrote:
>
> Again you are a liar. Saddam murdered over 300,000 of his own people.
>
Didn't most of these 300,000 alleged and (yet-unproven!) murders happen
during the Iraq-Iran war, in which the USA was the staunch supporter
and sponsor of Saddam and cheered all his actions? As in ((from now
on, I am just quoting the first results that my google search
produces):
/////////////////////////////////
http://www.guardian.co.uk/analysis/story/0,3604,1265520,00.html
"The estimate of 300,000 Iraqis killed by the Ba'athists also includes
deaths for which the western powers arguably bear some responsibility.
According to the US state department, most of the graves discovered to
date correspond to five major atrocities committed by the Saddam
Hussein regime: the 1983 attack against Kurds of the Barzani tribe; the
1988 Anfal campaign against the Kurds, for which estimates of the
numbers killed vary from 50,000 to 180,000; chemical attacks against
Kurdish villages from 1986 to 1988; ... Saddam's brutal attacks on the
Kurds in the 1980s occurred as part of the Iran-Iraq war, during which
the Reagan administration supported and armed his regime. When that war
ended in 1988 Saddam sought to consolidate his rule at home; in the
Anfal campaign he sent forces to quell the Kurdish uprising in the
north (supported by the Iranians), again with US consent."
/////////////////////////////////
So, another US puppet is being a genocidist. What else is new?
That's how USA operates: it creates and sponsors genocidal monsters all
over the World and then gets really surprised and upset when these
monsters turn against their own creator. Doesn't anybody in the US
government know the story of Dr. Frankenstein?
Even Bin Laden himself was originally created, trained and funded by
the CIA for the purpose of terrorizing and murdering Russians in
Afghanistan. As in:
/////////////////////////////////
http://msnbc.com/news/190144.asp
BIN LADEN'S BEGINNINGS
As his unclassified CIA biography states, bin Laden left Saudi Arabia
to fight the Soviet army in Afghanistan after Moscow's invasion in
1979. By 1984, he was running a front organization known as the MAK
which funneled money, arms and fighters from the outside world into the
Afghan war.
What the CIA bio conveniently fails to specify is that the MAK was
nurtured by Pakistan's state security services, the Inter-Services
Intelligence agency, or ISI, the CIA's primary conduit for conducting
the covert war against Moscow's occupation.
Yet the CIA ... found that Arab zealots who flocked to aid the Afghans
were easier to "read" than the rivalry-ridden natives. While the
Arab volunteers might well prove troublesome later, the agency
reasoned, they at least were one-dimensionally anti-Soviet for now. So
bin Laden, along with a small group of Islamic militants from Egypt,
Pakistan, Lebanon, Syria and Palestinian refugee camps all over the
Middle East, became the "reliable" partners of the CIA in its war
against Moscow...
Most of these Afghan vets turned up later behind violent Islamic
movements around the world...
/////////////////////////////////
In the 1990s and 2000s, after USA fell out of love with Saddam, Al
Qaeda, which has been Saddam's worst enemy, was welcomed into lands
that USA had wrestled from Saddam. For example, when USA effectively
liberated Northern Iraq (Kurdistan) from Saddam after the first Iraq
war and made it a no-fly zone for Saddam (so called "Northern No-Fly
Zone"), Al Qaeda was immediately invited by Kurds to establish
terrorist bases and chemical plants there in Ansar al-Islam. For
example:
/////////////////////////////////
http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:y0ccYjhqVLYJ:www.back-to-iraq.com/archives/000201.php++zarqawi+Ansar+al-Islam+Kurdish+northern+Iraq+&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=19
February 10, 2003
I went stumbling around Iraqi Kurdistan, the northern part of Iraq
outside Saddam's direct control....
The Ansar al-Islam enclave, according to Salih and American
intelligence officials, soon became the base of operations of an Al
Qaeda subgroup called Jund al-Shams... Jund al-Shams is controlled by a
man named Mussa'ab al-Zarqawi. Zarqawi is believed by European
intelligence agencies to be Al Qaeda's main specialist in chemical and
biological terrorism...
American intelligence officials believe that Zarqawi was also among an
unknown number of Al Qaeda terrorists who have sought refuge in the
Ansar al-Islam over the past seventeen months.
/////////////////////////////////
and
/////////////////////////////////
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3483089.stm
Profile: Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
Kurdish connection
Zarqawi ... is believed to have fled to Iraq in 2001... US officials
argue that it was at al-Qaeda's behest that he moved to Iraq and
established links with Ansar al-Islam - a group of Kurdish Islamists
from the north of the country. He is thought to have remained with them
for a while - feeling at home in mountainous northern Iraq.
/////////////////////////////////
The American planes patrolled the Kurd airspace day and night in order
to protect their Kurd and Al Qaeda friends from their enemy Saddam.
>From the other side, Saddam other deadly enemy, Iranian ayatollahs,
were also helping Zarqawi. See: Americans, Zarqawi and Iranian bigots
found something in common: their hatred for Saddam.
Everywhere US goes, it brings its Al Qaeda friends along. Even long
after the 9-11 terror, USA's puppet regime of Pres. Shevardnadze in the
Rep. of Georgia arranged for Al Qaeda to bring huge amounts of a deadly
WMD (a potent poison called "ricin") into Georgia in order to poison
Russian civilians. Only when the Al Qaeda men were caught smuggling
ricin into France and England (to terrorize the Russian Embassy, as was
later discovered) did USA realise that Al Qaeda had double-crossed them
once again. As in:
/////////////////////////////////
http://www.time.com/time/europe/magazine/article/0,13005,901030120-407295-2,00.html
as
The al-Qaeda camps in Georgia's Pankisi Valley - which until a
Georgian security crackdown last year was a lawless haven of
guerrillas, drug dealers and kidnappers - specialize, says Jacquard,
in training recruits in the use of explosives and in basic chemical
terror, including the poisoning of water and food supplies... Material
evidence collected during the Romainville raids leaves little doubt
that the cell was planning an attack, French sources say. Subsequent
testimony indicated that the plot was to target the Russian Embassy in
Paris - to punish Russia for its poor treatment of the Chechens.
/////////////////////////////////
The most amazing thing is that USA then went to the UN and tried to
blame Saddam for the Al Qaeda camps and WMD plants in Georgia and
Kurdistan! That was the centerpiece of Powell's notorious UN speech
made to justify the invasion of Iraq. As in:
/////////////////////////////////
http://www.stuffiveheard.com/archives/speeches/
UN Speech by Secretary of State Colin Powell
February 05, 2003
"But what I want to bring to your attention today is the potentially
much more sinister nexus between Iraq and the Al Qaida terrorist
network, a nexus that combines classic terrorist organizations and
modern methods of murder. Iraq today harbors a deadly terrorist network
headed by Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi, an associated in collaborator of Osama
bin Laden and his Al Qaida lieutenants.
When our coalition ousted the Taliban, the Zarqawi network helped
establish another poison and explosive training center camp. And this
camp is located in northeastern Iraq. You see a picture of this camp.
The network is teaching its operatives how to produce ricin and other
poisons. Let me remind you how ricin works. Less than a pinch--image a
pinch of salt--less than a pinch of ricin, eating just this amount in
your food, would cause shock followed by circulatory failure. Death
comes within 72 hours and there is no antidote, there is no cure. It is
fatal.
Those helping to run this camp are Zarqawi lieutenants operating in
northern Kurdish areas outside Saddam Hussein's controlled Iraq.
As my colleagues around this table and as the citizens they represent
in Europe know, Zarqawi's terrorism is not confined to the Middle East.
Zarqawi and his network have plotted terrorist actions against
countries, including France, Britain, Spain, Italy, Germany and Russia.
We also know that Zarqawi's colleagues have been active in the Pankisi
Gorge, Georgia and in Chechnya, Russia. The plotting to which they are
linked is not mere chatter. Members of Zarqawi's network say their goal
was to kill Russians with toxins. "
/////////////////////////////////
And why does Powell blame Saddam and not his own buddies Kurds and
Georgians for sponsoring Zarqawi? Here is the only concrete and
semi-verifiable "damning evidence" against Saddam:
/////////////////////////////////
http://www.stuffiveheard.com/archives/speeches/
"Zarqawi's activities are not confined to this small corner of north
east Iraq. He traveled to Baghdad in May 2002 for medical treatment,
staying in the capital of Iraq for two months while he recuperated to
fight another day."
/////////////////////////////////
This monster Zarqawi has been living and working for years with
America's best friends Kurds in 'northeast Iraq", but because he
stayed in a Baghdad hospital for 2 months in order to receive medical
treatment (because Kurd extremists don't have too many doctors),
Powell blames Saddam and not Kurds or Georgians! And instead of
invading and bombing fellow Georgia and Kurdistan, USA invaded Saddam's
part of Iraq! Just because Iraqi doctors upheld their oath and
allegedly gave medical treatment to Al Zarqawi!
Powell even dares to say: "We are not surprised that Iraq is harboring
Zarqawi and his subordinates."
Formally, this is indeed true Yes, Iraq is indeed harboring Zarqawi.
But it is not Saddam's Iraq that's "harboring Zarqawi and his
subordinates". It is USA-protected Kurd puppets in "northeastern
Iraq" (as Powell admits himself!) who are "harboring Zarqawi and his
subordinates"!
For heaven's sake, do you think that your listeners don't have a map?
Northeastern Iraq is Kurd land. Saddam wasn't even allowed to fly his
planes over northeastern Iraq! As in:
/////////////////////////////////
http://www.ploughshares.ca/libraries/ACRText/ACR-IraqK.html
"The Patriotic Union of Kurdistan [PUK] controls the eastern part of
the autonomous zone, while the western sector is controlled by the
Kurdistan Democratic Party. "... Kurdish leaders are adjusting
rapidly to the realities of post-Hussein politics. First, to maximize
their national influence, the PUK and the rival Kurdistan Democratic
Party (KDP) have renounced the differences that led to civil war in
their 17,000-square-mile enclave in the 1990s. The two groups now speak
with one voice, and they say they are preparing to merge the dual
administrations that rule separate sections of the Kurdish region in
northeastern Iraq... " [The Washington Post, August 12, 2003]
/////////////////////////////////
Didn't you yourself, Mr. Powell, just tell us about "Zarqawi
lieutenants operating in northern Kurdish areas outside Saddam
Hussein's controlled Iraq"?!!!
/////////////////////////////////
http://www.stuffiveheard.com/archives/speeches/
"We are not surprised that Iraq is harboring Zarqawi and his
subordinates."
/////////////////////////////////
Formally, this is indeed true. Indeed "Iraq is harboring Zarqawi and
his subordinates". But not Saddam's Iraq. Kurdish part of Iraq, Mr.
Secretary! You own best friends and allies!
Why do you think we are too stupid to notice?
/////////////////////////////////
http://www.stuffiveheard.com/archives/speeches/
"Iraqi officials protest that they are not aware of the whereabouts of
Zarqawi or of any of his associates. Again, these protests are not
credible. We know of Zarqawi's activities in Baghdad. I described them
earlier."
/////////////////////////////////
The only Zarqawi activity in Baghdad that you have described to us, Mr.
Secretary, was how he received medical treatment in Baghdad for two
months. So indeed, while Zarqawi was in some hospital, some Iraqi
doctors were aware of his whereabouts at that time. But he has long
since recovered and returned to Kurdistan. How can Saddam know
Zarqawi's whereabouts in Kurdistan, Mr. Powell? Only you and your Kurd
friends know exactly where Zarqawi is. Give CIA a call and ask them
where exactly they send the food, clothes and the chemicals for
Zarqawi's ricin manufacturing plant in Ansar al-Islam, Kurdistan.
Reader may ask: "there must have been more evidence in Powell's speech
than that about Saddam's and Al Qaeda' sinister plot to terrorize the
World? Oh sure there was. For example:
/////////////////////////////////
http://www.stuffiveheard.com/archives/speeches/
Going back to the early and mid-1990s, when bin Laden was based in
Sudan, an Al Qaida source tells us that Saddam and bin Laden reached an
understanding that Al Qaida would no longer support activities against
Baghdad.
/////////////////////////////////
Yes, friends, Baghdad and Al Qaeda were so in love with each other that
Al Qaida used to conduct terrorist activities against Baghdad. That's
how much they were in love!
And then Saddam convinced Al Qaeda to no longer terrorize Baghdad. How
dare he!!!!! The fact that Al Qaeda and Baghdad reached a cease-fire
agreement and Al Qaeda stopped terrorizing Baghdad proves that Al Qaeda
and Baghdad have always been best friends and allies.
/////////////////////////////////
http://www.stuffiveheard.com/archives/speeches/
Some believe, some claim these contacts do not amount to much. They say
Saddam Hussein's secular tyranny and Al Qaida's religious tyranny do
not mix. I am not comforted by this thought.
/////////////////////////////////
Tell us, honorable US Secretary of State, Sir, what thoughts ARE you
"comforted by"? Thoughts that your boss has just asked you to
impudently lie in the most widely seen, read, and listened speech in
World history? Aren't you ashamed of this Goebbels-like demagoguery and
prevarication? Of course you are! Rumor has it that you later resigned
specifically because you had been forced by our fearless and honorable
leader Dick "I usually don't shoot while drunk" Cheney into
making a lying cheating a**hole of yourself in front of 6 billion
people all over the World.
In fact, embarrassed by this impudent lying about Al Qaeda and Baghdad
"ricin connection", the right-wing establishment later had to invent
the story that, even though Zarqawi was indeed living and busily
working among America's allies in Kurdistan and Georgia, Powell had
also lied about the existence of ricin itself. Here is what the famous
right-wing Jamestown Foundation now says about this lying:
/////////////////////////////////
http://www.jamestown.org/terrorism/news/article.php?articleid=2369023
"In the buildup to the Iraqi war in early 2003, dozens of North
Africans (mainly Algerians) were arrested in Britain, France and Spain
on charges of preparing ricin and other chemical weapons. Colin Powell
and others trumpeted the arrests as proof of the threat posed by the
Zarqawi-Chechen-Pankisi ricin network (which had now been expanded to
include the Ansar al-Islam of Kurdish northern Iraq).
French and British security officials were astounded by Powell's
insistence on February 12, 2003, that "the ricin that is bouncing
around Europe now originated in Iraq." With the Iraq invasion only
weeks away, the source of the ricin threat moved from Georgia to Iraq.
/////////////////////////////////
Even the most right-wing zealots make fun of Powell's speech. Yes,
fiends, let's rejoice in the honor and respect for America that our
Government evokes in people all over the World with such impudent and
obvious lies!
Amazing impudence. Amazing belief that average people are so dumb that
they will swallow any insult to human logic that the US government
shoves down their open throats.
Google has produced some 90,000 results for my searches on this
subject. Do you think I have been biasedly quoting only the mainstream
and the right wing? Here is one from the left wing:
/////////////////////////////////
http://www.antiwar.com/blog/comments.php?id=A1333_0_1_0_C
Northern Iraq was Zarqawi's stomping ground pre-invasion, as his gang,
which has close ties to Ansar al-Islam, was based in the Northern
No-Fly zone. Both Ansar al-Islam and Zarqawi flourished in northern
Iraq where they were protected from Saddam Hussein's regime by the US
and Britain.
/////////////////////////////////
And more from mainstream:
/////////////////////////////////
USA TODAY, February 6, 2003
On Wednesday, Secretary of State Colin Powell put Ansar and its base
here at the heart of the White House's case that al-Qaeda and Saddam
are connected. He said the link runs through Abu Musab Zarqawi, a bin
Laden lieutenant whom U.S. officials say Saddam is harboring. Zarqawi's
"network" is testing ricin and other poisons at an Ansarcamp here,
Powell said... The group's stronghold is in a hard-to-reach area along
the border with Iran in a pocket that, until 2001, was overseen by a
fledgling Kurdish administration... Powell acknowledged that Ansar's
base is in a part of Iraq that has been outside Saddam's control since
a Kurdish uprising in 1991.
/////////////////////////////////
Yes, Powell did sort of mention that Zarqawi's operations was out of
Saddam's control. But then he decided to blame Saddam for it anyway.
And he used this argument as "the heart of the White House's case that
al-Qaeda and Saddam are connected"!
Why? Because, according to Powell, he is "not comforted by" the fact
that Saddam has nothing to do with Zarqawi.
You see, truth doesn't comfort American leaders. Truth doesn't allow
them to do what Exxon wants them to do. Lies, libel, slander,
falsifications - that's what comforts them.
Impudent lies is what comforts American politicians and allows them to
get re-elected with the campaign contributions from Exxon and Lockheed,
which in turn steal this money from the average American taxpayers to
the tune of $250 billion just for Iraq alone. And thousands of
American boys are dying in the faraway god-forsaken hellhole called
"Iraq", where the entire population consists of Al Qaeda-loving
genocidal Shiites and Kurds, and Saddam-loving genocidal Sunnis!
And the TV-boob idiots believe that all this lying and dying and $250
billion waste is done not for the sake of making an extra $billion or
two for Exxon, but for only one purpose: to "bring love, tolerance,
brotherhood, peace, truth, honor, democracy and freedom to the Iraqi
people", who love them oh so much.
Fine. I can believe that Iraqis love truth more than you and your
bosses do, Mr. Powell. Pathological liars love truth more than you do.
But peace, brotherhood, tolerance and democracy?! The Iraqis love love
(pun intended), peace, brotherhood, and tolerance so much that they
will commit mutual genocide and fratricide in their name at the drop of
the hat.
>
> It's a liberation of Iraq from an unelected dictatorship microbrain.
> So in your ignorant little brain the way to prevent civil war is to
> have people live indefinitely under a brutal dictatorship?
>
> Now they can travel ....
>
I am glad they can travel now. This way they'll be able to spread their
genocidal Al Qaeda ways all over the Planet. Hold on, New Yorkers! The
newly liberated Iraqi Kurds, Sunnis and Shiites are bringing Al
Qaeda's suicide bombing to your homes in Manhattan and Brooklyn! And
for dessert, they will treat you to the ricin gas! It's just like
laughing gas, only 1000000 times funnier. It will tickle your funny
bone. Tickle you to death. I ain't lying...
And our State Department will once again blame Saddam for all this
mayhem. Or Putin. Or maybe Milosevic. Milosevic is best. Milosevic is
dead now, so we can blame him for everything. He won't mind.
Maybe Saddam will die soon too. Then we'll be able to blame him for the
American Slavery, for the Holy Catholic Inquisition and for the
Crusades.
Let me finish this Festival of Lies and Laughs by giving you a
hilarious Freudian example of what idiots our Government takes American
voters and taxpayers for. Here is what our Attorney General told the
American people last month (with a straight face!), when asked by
people's representatives why the Administration is so fond of illegal
spying on its own people:
/////////////////////////////////
http://abcnews.go.com/ThisWeek/story?id=1609248
US Attorney General Alberto R. Gonzales, testifying to Senate:
" I, I gave in my opening statement, Senator, examples where President
Washington, President Lincoln, President Wilson, President Roosevelt
have all authorized electronic surveillance of an enemy on a far
broader scale."
/////////////////////////////////
Ain't it coll?
I wonder how "Honest Abe" Lincoln and George "I cannot tell a lie"
Washington would react if they heard what our Attorney General said
about them; and how fast they were spinning in their graves during
Powell's speech. I bet our modern government officials send Washington,
Jefferson and Lincoln spinning so fast, that we can tie electric
generators to them and solve all our energy problems.
The Black Monk
vkar...@yahoo.com wrote:
> thereactionary wrote:
> > "In my opinion, Iraqi people suffered greatly under Saddam. But their
> > suffffering was nothing compared to the suffering and mayhem that they
> > have experienced ever since the US-British invasion and are
> > experiencing right now. "
> >
> > Where do you get an ignorant idea like that. Saddam murdered 300,000
> > of them
> >
>
> Really? Please provide the evidence.
>
> >
> > and they had no freedom.
> >
>
> Inded, they had no freedom to pillage, to burn mosques, to establish Al
> Qaeda terrrosit bases, and to explode bombs. No such freedoms! But now
> they do enjoy these freedoms.
You forgot about the freedom to burn christian churches, the freedom to
force Christian girls to wear rages over their heads (or to prevent
them from even going to school or university), etc. By keeping the
Islamic fundamentalists at bay Saddam maintained the freest society in
the Arab world. This is what the anti-Christian Bush destroyed for the
sake of $$$ witht he help of the acquiescence of American ignorance.
Bush's Global War on Christians
by Glen Chancy
...
"Forget all of Bush's flaws," Christian conservatives bellow, "At
least he's willing to fight!"
So, is our glorious president leading the Christian World in a great
struggle against the Muslim hordes? If he were, then a reasonable
outcome of this 'Clash' would be that the position of Christian (and
Jewish) populations worldwide would be in the process of becoming more
secure.
This is, alas, absolutely not happening. In fact, the current policies
of the Bush administration are threatening to absolutely devastate
ancient and pious Christian communities whose blood will be on all our
heads. To deal with the subject honestly, it must be acknowledged that
it almost appears as if President George Walker Bush were waging a
global war against Christians.
There are a tremendous number of facts that could be marshaled to
support such a counterintuitive statement, and at least some will be
surveyed in this article. However, the primary thrust of this article
will be to analyze the policies of the Bush Administration that have
placed us on the road to destroying one of the oldest Christian
communities in the entire world - the Assyrians of Iraq.
Iraq - Before the Liberation
To understand the situation in Iraq today, in proper context, let's
first review some basic facts about Iraq as it was under Saddam
Hussein's regime.
Saddam Hussein was a bad Muslim, and everybody knew it. A secular
dictator, he ruthlessly suppressed radical religious sentiment, and
tried to build a modern state. Saddam was bitterly hated and reviled
by Muslim radicals as diverse as Osama Bin Laden and the Shi'ite
Ayatollahs of Iran. In a tape released by Osama bin Laden in February
2003, Saddam Hussein is referred to as an 'ignorant infidel.' The
Iranian clerics hated Saddam so much that they repeatedly spurned
peace initiatives to end the Iran-Iraq War, in the hopes continued
fighting could topple his government. They intended to replace it with
a Shi'ite dominated state modeled after their own. Eventually, they
got smart enough to hire Ahmed Chalabi to convince the U.S. to topple
Saddam for them.
Saddam had inherited the Ba'ath Party ideology of secular pan-Arab
socialism, and hewed to many of its tenets throughout his brutal rule.
Iraqi women enjoyed more rights than women in the surrounding Arab
countries. Women could hold jobs and attend higher education, all with
uncovered faces. In fact, women comprised 20% of the professional
workforce.
Under Saddam, alcohol merchants plied their wares freely in their
shops. The lack of enforcement of the Sharia made Iraq the party spot
of the region. David Younan Oro, a 70-year-old patriarch of a
Christian family in Ramadi, ran casinos and nightclubs during the
heyday of Saddam's regime. He described the glory days like this,
"They drink like donkeys here. Business was good. I had a lot of
restaurants and shops." If you stayed out of politics, life and
business were good.
Among the primary tenets of Ba'athist ideology was a dedication to
religious tolerance. This is not surprising, since the intellectual
father of Ba'athism was Michel Aflaq, himself an Orthodox Christian.
In keeping with Ba'athist ideology, Saddam did not interfere with the
rights of the Assyrian Christians in Iraq to practice their faith.
Comprising somewhere between one and two million Iraqis, the
Aramaic-speaking Assyrians are the original inhabitants of the
modern-day state of Iraq.
The Assyrians did suffer repression under Saddam Hussein, who
suppressed their ethnic and linguistic distinctiveness while trying to
meld the hodgepodge of peoples in Iraq into a unified state. At no
time, however, were the Assyrians ever denied the free practice of
their religion, nor did they fear for their lives simply because of
their faith.
One measure of the relative religious freedom of the Assyrians under
Saddam was the exuberant and public celebration of Christmas. As one
writer described it, "Christmas decorations, including nativity
scenes, were seen in shops, restaurants and hotels. And Saddam
reportedly sometimes attended services at Christian churches in
Baghdad and even delivered an annual Christmas address."
As for the United States, Saddam seems to have pined for better
relations. He had been a de-facto ally of the U.S. during his war
against Iran, and appears to have wanted to recapture that status.
According to the Duelfer Report, compiled by the Iraq Survey Group
(ISG), beginning already in 1991, "very senior Iraqis close to the
president made proposals through intermediaries for dialogue with
Washington," even offering to be Washington's "best friend in the
region bar none."
Apparently, Saddam never did understand why he couldn't just work a
deal with the U.S. In his beffuddlement, Saddam is not alone. Many
other observers of the region still can't grasp why this secular
dictator made it to the top of the U.S. hitlist in a war supposedly
directed at Muslim extermists.
Iraq - After the Liberation
To say the least, since being liberated from Saddam, things have gone
badly for a great many Iraqis. However, the time has been especially
harsh for the Assyrian Christians. Large areas of Iraq are now under
the control of Muslim religious leaders whose militias have been
enforcing Muslim law. Based on locally issued fatwas, these armed
fanatics have killed Christians for engaging in prohibited businesses
such as selling alcohol or other formerly legal products. Many
Christian business men have seen their shops, restaurants, and other
business either forcibly closed or confiscated.
David Younan Oro's casino, the flagship of his family business, was
taken over by armed men who converted it to a Mosque. "We had a very
good situation until the fundamentalists began to appear and we were
affected," said Roger William, Oro's son-in-law. "Because America and
Britain are Christian countries, they blame us for the war. We are
terrified. We really don't know what the future will hold."
Even Christian homes and private land are being appropriated. The
Kurds, America's erstwhile allies, are among the worst offenders.
Writing about the situation in Dara, his home village, an Assyrian
Christian living in London reported that, "The Kurdish people are
building homes on our village's land, without our permission. It is
sad to say, our own neighbors are stealing it from us."
Christians have reported rapes, kidnappings, and assaults. The
situation is so bad, that Christian children have been gunned down in
their own homes. This little girl, Raphid was gunned down in her home
along with her sister in July. She was only six years old. Her sister,
Raad, was only sixteen. They belonged to a well-known Assyrian
Christian family that had been threatened. While the family was out,
terrorists entered and shot the two children at point blank range.
These two little girls died simply because they were Christians in a
country increasingly slipping into Muslim rule.
Armed groups of men have stopped cars on the street and harangued
women whose heads are uncovered, accusing them of violating Islamic
law. Even Christians have started wearing headscarves out of fear,
something that never happened under Saddam Hussein's regime.
As Christians have retreated into the shadows, the compromise
Transitional Administrative Law in force in Iraq today has actually
gone far towards officially establishing Islamic rule in what was once
a secular country. Article 7 states, in part, that "Islam is the
official religion of the State and is to be considered a source of
legislation. No law that contradicts the universally agreed tenets of
Islam, the principles of democracy, or the rights cited in Chapter Two
of this Law may be enacted during the transitional period." It further
complicates the problem for Christians in Iraq that they are under
represented in the interim government when compared with their
percentage of the population. It is almost as if the U.S.
intentionally excluded them in the lead up to the 'handover' of
power.
Nor do the promised elections in January appear likely to improve the
situation. According to a recent poll released by the International
Republican Institute (an organization allied with the U.S. Republican
Party), the highest level of support among Iraqis for any politician
belongs to Abdul Aziz al-Hakim, leader of the Supreme Council for
Islamic Revolution in Iraq. The name of his organization probably
speaks for itself.
It is bitterly ironic that far from bringing Western secularism, the
U.S.-invasion has instead opened the door for an Islamic Republic. Out
of fear, an estimated 40,000 to 45,000 Assyrians have already fled
Iraq. Most have found shelter in Syria next door, a nation that the
U.S. may be targeting next in its drive to spread 'freedom' in the
Middle East. Had President George W. Bush set out with the intentional
goal of destroying the Christian population in Iraq, it is hard to see
how he could have been more effective than he has been to date.
More Fronts in the War
President Bush has continued the NATO occupation of Kosovo. Since the
end of the war against Serbia, Kosovo has been the scene of
anti-Christian ethnic cleansing on a massive scale. More than 120
churches have been destroyed, some dating to the 14th century. 240,000
Christian Serbs have fled the province. Periodic anti-Christian
pogroms such as the one that erupted from March 17th - March 18th
kill
dozens, wound hundreds, and cause more Serbian Christians to flee for
their lives. While the U.N. administers the province, NATO troops,
some 60,000, are the actual force on the ground. This means that,
ultimately, the Bush Administration bears the responsibility for
failing to protect the Christians in Kosovo from Muslim fanatics.
Elsewhere in the Balkans, the Bush Administration has continued the
status quo in Bosnia, which allows Muslim terrorists to use it as a
safe-haven for recruiting and training. According to European
intelligence sources, Bosnia has become a "one-stop shop" for Islamic
militants heading from terrorist battlegrounds in Chechnya and
Afghanistan to Iraq. In addition, the U.S. under Bush has continued to
try and dismember the nation of Macedonia by forcing it to make ever
larger concessions to its Muslim Albanian minority.
The Bush Administration has made Turkish entry into the European Union
a number one priority on its international agenda. Despite Turkey's
horrendous record of mass murder and abuse of its Christian
minorities, President Bush has been intervening personally to try and
convince skeptical Europeans that, "Including Turkey in the EU would
prove that Europe is not the exclusive club of a single religion, and
it would expose the 'clash of civilizations' as a passing myth of
history." President Bush's single-minded determination to see Turkey
in the EU even drove him to try and force a bad settlement of the
Cyprus queston on unwilling Greek Cypriots, who ultimately rejected
it.
Ironically, even as his Christian supporters in the U.S. bemoan the
increasing Islamization of Europe, President Bush is doing everything
he can to make sure that 70 million more Turkish Muslims will have the
opportunity to settle there. While the possibility that this massive
migration could destroy the very heart of Christendom seems to be lost
on President Bush, certain European leaders have become quite alarmed.
Addressing the issue of Turkey joining the EU, former French President
Valery Giscard d'Estaing said, "In my opinion, it would be the end of
Europe."
Both d'Estaing and Jacques Chirac, current president of France and a
favorite target of American Christian conservatives, have positively
emerged as defenders of the faith as they fight against Turkish
accession to the EU. If only President Bush had as much dedication to
Europe's Christian heritage as the heroic French.
In Chechnya, a region much in the news since the Beslan massacres, the
U.S. has inserted itself on the side of the Muslims opposed to Russian
rule. Foremost among the American agitators against Russia is The
American Committee for Peace in Chechnya, a front group of
Bush-connected neoconservatives such as Richard Perle, James Woolsey,
Michael Ledeen and Kenneth Adelman. The ACPC wants Putin to negotiate
with the Chechens rebels, and favors a NATO presence in Chechnya along
the lines of the NATO missions in Bosnia and Kosovo. President Putin
seems to be relatively uninterested in listening to their ideas. If
only the American president were half as wise.
Conclusion
Whatever President Bush and his coterie are doing globally, one thing
is abundantly clear. They are not fighting a global war on any kind of
Islam, radical or otherwise. On the other hand, they are making
tremendous progress towards crippling or completely destroying large
segments of the world's Christian population. And in this slaughter,
the American people have become his accomplices.
Despite all of the negative impacts of his foreign policy on
Christians globally, the Christian conservatives in America have been
deafeningly silent. Two reasons account for this. First is their
overwhelming pre-occupation with Israel. The State of Israel and its
security were mentioned by both presidential candidates in their
debates. The need to protect Israel is the subject of daily articles
in conservative publications, both online and dead tree. Pat Robertson
even threatened to form a third party, if the Republicans ever waiver
in their full-throated support of the State of Israel. Such concern
for the plight of Christians abroad is non-existent.
Perhaps if the Assyrians and others renounced Christ and embraced the
Talmud, American Christians would care what happens to them?
The second reason is the fear that criticizing Bush will hurt his
chances of re-election. For this reason, many Christians have kept
their silence, all the while knowing the truth of what is happening.
This is not a Christian attitude. Christ stood for the truth at all
times, not only when it was expedient. Standing silent in the face of
suffering, simply to prevent inconvenience to a favored politician, is
not following the way of Christ.
It is time for Christian conservatives to end the silence. We must
speak out, and we must let the President, whether it be Bush or Kerry,
know that a continuation of these disastrous policies will absolutely
not be tolerated.
October 30, 2004
Glen Chancy [send him mail] is a graduate of the University of Florida
with a degree in Political Science, and a certificate in Eastern
European Studies. A former University lecturer in Poland, he currently
holds an MBA in Finance and works in Orlando, Florida as a business
analyst for an international software developer.
----------------------
BM
vkar...@yahoo.com
The Black Monk wrote:
> vkar...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > thereactionary wrote:
> > > "In my opinion, Iraqi people suffered greatly under Saddam. But their
> > > suffffering was nothing compared to the suffering and mayhem that they
> > > have experienced ever since the US-British invasion and are
> > > experiencing right now. "
> > >
> > > Where do you get an ignorant idea like that. Saddam murdered 300,000
> > > of them
> > >
> >
> > Really? Please provide the evidence.
> >
> > >
> > > and they had no freedom.
> > >
> >
> > Inded, they had no freedom to pillage, to burn mosques, to establish Al
> > Qaeda terrrosit bases, and to explode bombs. No such freedoms! But now
> > they do enjoy these freedoms.
>
> You forgot about the freedom to burn christian churches, the freedom to
> force Christian girls to wear rages over their heads (or to prevent
> them from even going to school or university), etc.
>
Do Iraqis do that now?!!!!! According to my Jewish friends, Iraqis have
traditionally been extremely tolerant and friendly towards Jews and
Christians.
Are you mistaking Iraqis for Albanians who do specialize in genocide
and christian church destruction (but they din't burn churches, they
demoilished them) under the NATO supervision and protection?
Or is this now happening in Iraq as well?
So, is this what Ameicans bring with them everywhere they invade:
persecution of Christians? Interesting....
>
> By keeping the
> Islamic fundamentalists at bay Saddam maintained the freest society in
> the Arab world. This is what the anti-Christian Bush destroyed for the
> sake of $$$ witht he help of the acquiescence of American ignorance.
>
> Bush's Global War on Christians
> by Glen Chancy
>
Aha. Now I see...
Thanks for the information!
Look, the bottom line is that the US government couldn't care less
about the fate of individual Christians, Jews or Muslims. The only
thing that matters is to do good by Exxon, BP, Lockheed and other
companies that decide who gets re-elected and who doesn't.
captain.
"The Black Monk" <ch....@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1142973826....@z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> You forgot about the freedom to burn christian churches, the freedom to
> force Christian girls to wear rages over their heads (or to prevent
> them from even going to school or university), etc. By keeping the
> Islamic fundamentalists at bay Saddam maintained the freest society in
> the Arab world. This is what the anti-Christian Bush destroyed for the
> sake of $$$ witht he help of the acquiescence of American ignorance.
>
a man in afghanistan converted to chritianity and afghanistan's own
prosecutor general (hand picked by occupation forces) has publicly stated
that the man deserves to be hung. there is alot of work to do there still.
vkar...@yahoo.com
You mean the centuries of British, Soviet and American meddling, wars,
and destruction have not yet turned Afghanistan in a peaceful tolerant
paradise, like all the other Mulsim countries?
OK, then let's continue "working" along the same productive lines.
The choise USA has is:
1. Continue to protect the Afghani heroin production
or
2. Crack down and see these starved people start yet another bloody
civil
Definition of a moron: somebody who cannot see patterns and learn from
his and others' mistakes.
vkar...@yahoo.com
I made fun of "thereactionary"'s belief that Iraqis and other peoples,
ocupied by Americans, love this occupation:
>
> >Sort of reminds me of an old East German joke:
>
> > - Child, who is your mother?
> >- The great Communist party.
> >- Who is your father?
> >- The great Comrade Stalin.
> >- What do you want to be when you grow up?
> >- An orphan.
>
> You are even too stupid to see that your joke means to opposite of what
> you think it means.
>
No, it doesn't. My point it that modern USA is becoming very similar in
most respects to Brezhnev's Soviet Union.
In fact, in many aspects, USA circa 2006 has become more Soviet than
the Soviet Union itself.
Remember how in the old Soviet Union the biggest laugh was how
Brezhnev's speeches were interrupted every 2 minutes by deafening
appluase form the Communists in the audience?
Well, Bush's latest State of the Union speech was interrupted every 45
seconds by deafening appluase form the Republicans in the audience.
Every damn 45 seconds!
Let me share one of the old Soviet Brezhnev jokes and re-phrase them in
Bush terms:
1. Bush is opening the the 2002 Winter Olympic Games. He starts
reading:
- "Oh!"
The Republican congressmen applaud wildly.
He continues:
- "Oh!"
The Republican congressmen applaud for 5 minutes.
He continues:
- "Oh!"
The Republican congressmen go absolutely wild.
He continues:
- "Oh!"
Fox News commentators go into orgasmic spasms from approval
He continues:
- "Oh!"
The speechwriter whispers to Bush:
- "Mr. President, Mr. President, these are the five Olympic rings! Your
speech is below!"
>
> It was the US fighting a cold war against Russia
> that got the East Germans their freedom.
>
So, the US had a better economy and won the arms race in the 1980s. How
does that prove that USA's foreign policy in the 1990s and 2000s is a
wise one?
>
> And it is the US fighting
> Saddam and the Islamists that has gotten the Iraqis their freedom.
>
So, your poin it that the main reason why the US has sacrificed some
2,000 men and $250 billion in taxpayers money was to bring "freedom",
chaos, and civil war to the 25 or so million Iraqis? That's about $10
thousand per Iraqi.
OK. Let's see... There are at least 3 billion people in the World who
don't have Ameircan-style "freedom" and don't enjoy the civil war yet.
So, to bring freedom to the World, US taxpayers will have to spend an
extra $30 trillion and sacrifice more than 1 million boys? Nice
going....
>
> Your joke makes it obvious that people wanted freedom from unelected
> communist dictatorships.
>
No, my joke meant that East Germans wanted freedom from the Soviet
Union. Many East Germans are nostalgic for socialist times.
>
> Your brain has become so addled by left wing
> propaganda that you want to draw parallels between systems that prevent
> people from choosing their own government with systems that allow no
> choice.
>
A "one person - one vote" democracy is only as good as the awareness
and the opinions of the majority of the population.
The majority of people in Belarus want to live under Lukashenko's rule.
But I certainly wouldn't get caught dead living there.
>
> And then you try to rationalize away the value of freedom.
>
No, I don't. To me personally, freedoms are paramount. So what? I am
not an Iraqi, nor do I vote there.
>
> People like you really stink.
>
> >Since it is impossible to fight bureaucracy (at least in the short
> >term), I say that at least we should restore our old school funding in
> >order to re-hire the fired teachers.
>
> Restore the funding and the school system will just hire more
> bureaucrats. Then they will tell you again that they need more
> funding.
>
> Ask yourself why Utah can get their children a much better education at
> half the cost.
>
Better than what? Rwanda? Alabama?
You do realize that your Utah high school gradutes know less math and
science than do 10-year old babies in Korea?
>
> The answer is not to allow the left wing school system
> to rape you forever, it is to elect different people.
>
Heck, I do my part: I vote Libertarian every time.
To repeat: a "one person - one vote" democracy is only as good as the
awareness and the opinions of the majority of the population.
The vast majority of Americnas are like you: too stupid to embrace the
ideas of freedom, competition, peace, choice, and privacy.
Libertarian ideas always lose.
>
> >When I was a child in the Communist Soviet Union, my parents had an
> >almost complete freeom to place me into any of the 1,500 of public
> >schools in the city of Moscow. And if they didn't like my new school,
> >they had the right to take me out of it and put it into any other
> >school, and so on.
>
> My wife is from St. Petersburg, and she realizes that most of what she
> was told in the old Soviet Union was a lie.
>
You mean it took her until now to realize what intelligent Rusisans
like my parents and grandparents have known for almost 90 years?
>
> She understands that here
> life is far superior, here.
>
Sure. US has one of the highest standards of living anywhere in the
World.
But Iraq doesn't. Not after 10 years of economic boycott of Iraqi oil.
Dirt poor coutries are fundamentally different from very rich
countries. Trust me.
>
> And while there are still a few people
> that vote communist in Russia, that number grows smaller with every
> election. The same will happen in Iraq. At first there will be a lot
> of people who vote for the Islamic parties. But as time goes on they
> will vote more and more secular.
>
But there is a huge difference. The Soviet people themselves decided to
get rid of Communism. And they did it with relatively little vilence.
if oyu don't count dozens of bloody ehtnic conflicts still raging all
over former USSR.
No foreign invador ever set his foot on Soviet soil. If some country
like USA had dared to use force to impose "freedoms" in the USSR, at
least 97% of the Soviet population would have rallied around the Soviet
flag and would have sent USA back into the Stone Age.
In Iraq, it was the Ameircan boms and bullets that ousted Saddam. The
majority of Iraqi people hate the American invaders, hate new situation
an/or want to use the newly found freedom from law and order, the
freedom of lawlessness to slaughter other ethnic and religious groups.
Look. Life is good in some Arab coutries like UAE or Bahrein, right?
The Bahreinis probably think tha tthis is because they are such good
Muslims and follow Islam.So, imagine Bahrein decided to bring the Word
of Islam to Caanda and invaded Canada, occupied it, and tried to impose
the Word of Allah there. Don't you think that Canadians would rebel
against the foreign occupants?
Even though the Bahreinis have a noble goal - to introduce Canadians to
the World of Our Lord! What can be greater than the World of Our Lord?
But can you blame Canadians for rebelling?
So, my first point is: natuives will always resent and rebel against
foreign invasion and occupation, no matter what ideology the invaders
profess or try to impose.
One of the exiled leaders of the anti-Saddam movement expressed this
perfectly in the very first days of the American invasion of Iraq:
- We, opposition leaders, hate Saddam more than anything in the World,
we may be the biggest freedom- and democracy- lovers in the World. But
when we see pictures of our Iraqi people dying and Iraqi cities
burning, we become Iraqi patriots first and democrats second. And our
hearts get filled with rage over these pictures!
My seond point is: different lands and different cultures are in
totally different stages of their cultural, economic, social, religious
and inter-ethnic spirals and cycles.
What is perfect for a nation that has a history of law, tolerance and
democracy - may be impossible or suicidal that is currently undegoing
terrible inter-ethnic strife, poverty and overwhelming corruption in
government and among police and judges.
Let's look at your own example of the Soviet transition form Communism
to Capitalism. In republics like Estonia, this worked great. But to the
Republic of Georgia, which has some of the same problems that Iraq has,
this has been an unmitigated disaster. Ethnic wars followed. Inter-clan
wars followed. Political civil wars raged. One crazy dictator violently
overthrew another dictator.
Prior to the Soviet break-up, Gerogia was by far the most prosperous
Soviet republic. Now it is poorer than Rwanda. 70% of the population is
unemployed and starving. Streets are filled with hungry demonstrators.
Atmosphere is ripe with yet another bloody pointtless revolution.
No size fits all. Each person should buy the clothes that fit him and
his particular needs and situation. Same for countries. They should
have the right to control and choose their own political system. Even
the countries that have so much oil that Exxon simply has to invade
them....
captain.
<vkar...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1143067925....@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
i have no proof of this but i suspect that your number 1 selection is the
reality.