ISLAM AND SCIENCE

[an20...@anon.penet.fi]

ISLAM AND SCIENCE

For although there is not a single aspect of European growth in which
the decisive influence of Islamic culture is not traceable, nowhere is
it so clear and momentous as in the genesis of that power which
constitutes the permanent distinctive force of the Modern world and
the supreme source of its victory -- natural science and the
Scientific spirit. It is highly probable that but for the Arabs modern
European civilization would never have arisen at all; it is absolutely
certain that but for them, it would not have assumed that character
which has enabled it to evolve.

A common misconception which has a great hold on the minds of many,
including a fairly large majority of Muslims themselves, is that Islam
and Science are two mutually incompatible and inconsistent fields of
human activity. This misconception owes its origin in modern times to
the obvious backwardness in the field of scientific progress of the
countries which are known as Muslim countries and the hostile
fanaticism of a section of reactionaries among Muslims themselves. It
is also the direct result of a false concept regarding the purpose of
human existence on this earth, where "salvation" has come to be
synonymous with individual self-immolation, or in other words,
"suicide". My object is to explode the MYTH and to place before you
both internal and external EVIDENCE which will clearly establish the
fact that Islam lays equal, if not greater, emphasis on the conquest
of the forces of nature without, as on the control and discipline of
the forces within man.

This misconception appears to have gained a hold on the Muslim mind
from the time when religion was separated from every other sphere of
material activity of man and relegated to a system of inner experience
having no connection with the outside environment; when life's whole
purpose became introvertial, groping for a path leading unto a
"Hereafter" alone or the lure of the "otherworldliness". This was
exactly what static religions and philosophies had tried to do before
the advent of Islam in their passage through time, perverting
realities into hypocritical systems of myths and mysticism.

To be able to understand this state of mental stultification, we have
to go back and study the state of the world before Islam altered its
complexion. At the sixth century C.E., we find ourselves face to face
with a world divided into two mutually exclusive and internally
incompatible compartments. The two compartments were the world of
religion and the world of matter. Religion as a means of individual
salvation had come to teach that the world of matter was completely
illusory and stood as a curtain and a barrier between man and his
progress towards individual salvation. It has no reality and, for a
man to be religious, it was incumbent upon him to shun everything
material. The life of a hermit was the highest from of life and a
guaranteed passport to heaven. Even the world of thought and intellect
was enmeshed by the same snare. Socrates concentrated his intellectual
attention on the study of man in the abstract, that is, man in
relation to his internal thoughts or concepts born out of an
involution within himself. Plato -- his true disciple -- despised all
sense of perception and considered it the greatest sin. It is, in
fact, Plato who has made a fine art of this concept of MAYA or
Illusion which his disciples throughout the ages have managed to weave
into an ephemeral web, within which they have closeted
themselves. Plato can, with full justification, be called the father
of mysticism. This school continued to drag down humanity by keeping
them enmeshed within the cobwebs woven by their otherwise empty but in
this particular respect rather fecund, brains.

It was at this stage of world history that the sixth century of the
Christian Era witnessed the shining light of Islam emblazon this
otherwise dark world. Islam as revealed in the Holy Qur'an, smashed
the ideas which had enchained humanity for several centuries in the
contradictions woven by the ideas of "Illusion". It was the Holy
Qur'an which drove home the truth FOR THE FIRST TIME in the history of
organized human existence and intellect that the force of nature
"without" and the psyche "within" were two aspects of the same reality
and conclusive and constructive truths can only come before our eyes
by the analytical examination, interplay and integration of both these
aspects of existence. Says the Holy Qur'an:

"We shall show them our signs in the phenomenal and the spiritual
worlds until it will be manifested unto them that this is the
constructive truth"(41:53).

There must be a complete interweaving of these two aspects before
reality can be conceived and the conception can produce results. The
inner world of psychology must be brought to play upon and integrate
with the outer world of natural forces before mankind can develop and
evolve to the heights or the extents which will transcend the limits
of the concrete. So far as the inner or psychic world is concerned,
the Holy Qur'an tells us that no nation can change its outer world
until there is a change in their psychological world (8:53 and 13:11)
and at the same time, regarding the outer world, the Holy Qur'an warns
us that the nation which runs away from the outer world or the world
of nature does nothing else but embrace death (7:185-186).

These teachings of the Holy Qur'an which were given to this world
thirteen centuries and a half ago, when viewed in the light of the
suicidal philosophy which enmeshed the world then, clearly show us
that the beacon of Light was lit by the Holy Qur'an, which showed the
path to this otherwise groping world. The subsequent history of
scientific development has merely helped in confirming these truths
and bringing them out with emphatic intensity.

The story of the evolution and emergence of man as a self-conscious
being, capable not only of perceptions but also endowed with the
faculties of analysing and integrating them into complex concepts, is
given by the Holy Qur'an introducing him as the being who learnt to
distinguish these concepts by giving names capable of reflecting their
qualities. This is how the Holy Qur'an narrates the legend, the so
called legend, of the fall of Adam.

"When thy Lord said to the angels, 'Verily I am about to place on
earth a successor (to the previous species, in power and interest)'
they said 'Wilt Thou place there one who will create dis-equilibrium
and shed blood while we remain constantly engaged in Thine
appreciation and glorification?'" (2:30).

God said: "Verily I know what ye know not. And He endowed Adam with
faculty of naming things" (2:31).

Incidentally, the necessity for endowing man with the faculty of
giving names to things arises out of the simple fact that no concept
can exist unless it can be expressed in terms of certain words, which
words in themselves stand for certain concepts. The two are
inseparable and must exist together. Out of simple words which stand
for simple concepts, more complex and comprehensive concepts take
shape, which in turn are dependent upon the faculty to give them names
for the purpose of being conveyed from one individual to another or
even for the purpose of retention in the memory. Dr. Burke in his
famous book, THE COSMIC CONSCIOUSNESS, says:

"The growth of the human intellect is the growth of the concepts,
i.e. the multiplication of the more simple and at the same time the
building up of these into others more and more complex; for every
concept there is a word and for every word there is a concept; neither
can exist apart from the other. No word can come into being except as
the expression of a concept, neither can a new concept be formed
without the formation (at the same time) of the new word which is its
expression."

Our scientists today have reached a stage where they have by their
constant empirical methods been forced to admit and recognise the
truths which were stated by the Holy Qur'an 13,600 years ago. The
fundamental fact that no conceptual knowledge can exist without the
ability to name these concepts was states with such clarity and
precision so many centuries ago.

In contradiction to the false concept of "Illusion" or Maya advocated
by the priests and philosophers of yore, the Holy Qur'an for the first
time emphatically announced the fact that this creation had not been
brought into existence merely in the spirit of creative sport on the
part of the Creator:

"We have not created the heights and the surfaces and whatever is
between the twain, for mere sport: We have not created them but for a
positive (creative) purpose; but the greater part of mankind
understands it not." (44:38-39).

The emphasis is laid on the fact that this creation or the natural
phenomena around us, has not been created in vain, nor is it
unreal. It has a very serious purpose in view and man's sojourn on the
earth is for a creative and positive purpose that can only be served
when there is an interweaving and integration between the psychic, or
inner, being and the observable aspect of Reality, which we call the
Phenomenal Universe. The Holy Qur'an is full of passages emphasizing
and illustrating these truths. I quote a few of the verses:

"Verily in the creation of the heights and of the surfaces and in the
succession of the night and the day are signs for men of understanding
who, standing, sitting and reclining, remind themselves of their
Creator and reflect on the creation of the heights and the surfaces
and say: 'O our Sustainer, Thou hast not created this in vain.' "
(3:190-191).

"Assuredly in the creation of the heights and of the surfaces, in the
alteration of night and day and in the ships which pass through the
seas with what is useful to man; and in the rain which God sendeth
down from above, giving life to the earth after its death and
scattering over it all kinds of cattle; and in the change of winds and
in the clouds that are made to do service between the heights and
surfaces are signs for those who understand" (2:164).

"And it is He Who hath made the stars for you that ye may be guided
thereby in the darkness of the land and of the sea. So clear have we
made Our signs to men of knowledge.

And it is He Who hath created you of one breath and hath provided an
abode and a place for your passage. Clear have We made Our signs to
men of insight. And it is He Who sendeth down rain from above; and We
bring forth by it the produce of all the plants and from them bring We
forth green foliage out of which We produce grain heaped up; of the
date palm and its sheaths some clusters of dates hanging low and near;
and then there are gardens of grapes and olives, and pomegranates,
each similar in kind yet differing in variety" (6:97-99).

"Hast thou not seen how thy Sustainer spreads out the shade? Had He
pleased, He would have made it stationary. But We made the sun to be
its torch; thereby contracting and drawing in the shade" (25:45-46).

"Can they not look up to the clouds how they are gathered and formed;
and the heights how they are upraised; and to the mountains how they
are routed and to the earth how it is outspread?" (88:17-20).

For the fulfillment of the purpose for which this universe has been
created, it is nor enough merely to give knowledge or the faculty of
naming it, but it is also necessary that man should be endowed with
the power of obtaining control and utilizing the forces of nature that
exist between the heights and surfaces. The Qur'an goes on to say:

"See ye not how God hath subjected to your control all that is above
and all that is below, and hath been bounteous to you in His favours
both in relation to the manifest and the potential." (31:20).

"And He hath subjected to you the night and day. The sun and the moon
and the stars, too, are subjected to you by His behest. Verily in this
are signs for those who understand" (16:20).

Even a superficial reading of the above quotations would leave no
doubt in the mind as to what the Holy Qur'an means by "men of
understanding and knowledge". Those who endeavour to bring under
subjection and control and gain a mastery over the forces of nature,
integrating them with the forces within and then developing the
product thereof and utilizing the same in accordance with the
Fundamental Laws which must govern humanity are, in the eyes of the
Qur'an, "the men of understanding and knowledge" or the 'ULEMAS. There
is no such thing as theology in the Qur'an and by men of understanding
it does not mean those who are commonly called theologians. The Qur'an
draws pointed attention to the material universe and says:

"Hast thou not seen that God causeth water to fall from above and
reproduces therewith fruits of diverse hues? And among the hills are
streaks, white and red, of diverse hues; and others raven black. And
men and beasts and cattle are in like manner of diverse hue?"
(35:27-28).

And after the understanding and appreciation of the laws governing the
phenomena of nature, the Qur'an has use the word 'ULEMAS or the
learned, as signifying those who as a result of their probing deep
into knowledge of nature obtain a comprehension of His greatness
(35:28).

Those who move about on this earth dead and unconscious of the
phenomena of nature around and with no desire to understand their
environment, the Holy Qur'an terms as "those who are possessed with
physical eyes but devoid of inner eyes" (22:46). And those who are
thus devoid of insight and comprehension here are termed as the
"blind". They shall be "blind" here as well as "blind" in the
"Hereafter" (17:72).

From what I have stated above and the quotations from the Holy Qur'an,
it will be more than evident that the Qur'an does not confine
salvation to a state of mere physical or mysterious being, introverted
and shrinking with its own shell. On the other hand the Qur'an lays
the greatest emphasis on the integration and development of man's
inner being as well as his conquest of the forces of nature without;
and this endeavour in this existence provides the roots for the plant
which is to flower both "here" and the world "Hereafter"; it is a
continuous evolutionary process (bounded in time and space here but
free of these shackles in the "Hereafter") and unless the roots are
nurtured here and provided with necessary nourishment, the flowering
and fruition both here and in the "Hereafter" cannot come into being.

A system of life which lays so much emphasis on the study and conquest
of the forces of nature around, must, if followed in its true spirit,
preclude men who would in their lives give a positive proof of this
method of the development and evolution of the human mind. The history
of Muslim peoples is replete with such instances which I shall
endeavour to recount presently.

Unfortunately most of the historians and orientalists on whom we
depend today for giving us an account of the development of scientific
progress ushered in by the Muslims, are Western Christian writers
whose intense and inveterate prejudices against anything Muslim
derives from the crushing defeats which the Crusaders suffered at the
hands of the Saracens. History presents only one single period of time
when the different otherwise mutually warring nations of Europe came
together and coalesced on a single issue, and that was the safety of
Christendom against the Muslim heretics contemptuously referred to as
the "Heathen Dog". It nurtured only one single emotion -- namely
intense hatred of anything Muslim, and this emotion dominated the
European mind even after the Renaissance in Europe, in spite of the
fact that the defeat of the Crusaders had become an event of the dim
past of history. This feeling remained dominant till the beginning of
the Industrial revolution in Europe, which ushered in the era of
Colonial Imperialism.

Briffault in his book, THE MAKING OF HUMANITY, says:

"The debt of Europe to the 'Heathen Dog' could of course, find no
place in the scheme of Christian history, and the garbled
falsification has imposed itself on all subsequent conceptions. Until
the last century, there did not even exist anything approaching
accurate knowledge of Saracen history and culture. Even today the
history of the re-birth of Europe from barbarism is constantly being
written without any REFERENCE whatsoever to the influence of Arab
civilization -- the history of the Prince of Denmark without Hamlet."

It is only recently that the European mind has slowly recovered from
its state of perverse hatred of the Muslim and shaken off its
inferiority complex after having wreaked its vengeance against the
Muslim invader who brought in light and knowledge to the darkness that
was Europe.

Having settled accounts with the invader, in the coin of the
Inquisition and burning at the stake, and his subsequent subjugation
under the imperialistic heel, even though he had ushered in the era of
their emancipation, the European Christian mind slowly veered round to
the acknowledgment of the debt that it owed to Islam. This may be
summed up in the words of Dorsey:

"It is easier for us to say, 'No Copernicus' -- or to say, 'No Arab
astronomy, no Copernicus' -- or to say, 'No Judaism, no Christianity'
than to say, 'No Arabs, no modern civilization.'"

This fact is further acknowledged by Sir Oliver Lodge in his book,
PIONEERS OF SCIENCE where he admits that it was the Arabs who formed
the only effective link between ancient and modern science -- the Dark
Ages in Europe form a gap in the history of science and for a period
of thousand years in between there was no scientist or philosopher
except among the Arabs.

How garbled and unreliable were the accounts of the annals of Islam
published by the orientalists of Europe before the beginning of the
nineteenth century may be judged from Professor Bevan's remarks in his
CAMBRIDGE MEDIAEVAL HISTORY. Professor Bevan says:

"Those accounts of Mohammed and Islam which were published in Europe
before the beginning of the nineteenth century are now to be regarded
as literary curiosities."

* THE ARABS, NOT ROGER BACON, INTRODUCED THE EXPERIMENTAL METHOD *

Briffault, who, of the modern European writers is a shining example of
a balanced man, risen far above the narrow and parochial prejudices of
European Christianity against Islam, has with candid frankness
admitted the fact that the advent of Islam was the turning point in
the making of humanity, when it emerged from the ancient to the modern
sphere of its evolution. Briffault deserves our gratitude for honesty
of appreciation and candour of expression and I must be forgiven for
quoting him at length:

"It was under the influence of the Arabs and the Moorish revival of
culture and not in the fifteenth century that a real renaissance took
place. Spain, not Italy, was the cradle of the re-birth of
Europe. After steadily sinking lower and lower into barbarism it had
reached the darkest depths of ignorance and degradation when the
cities of the Saracenic world, Baghdad, Cairo, Cordova, and Toledo,
were growing centers of civilisation and intellectual activity. It was
there the new life arose which was to grow into a new phase of human
evolution. From the time when the influence of their culture made
itself felt, BEGAN the stirring of a new life.

It was under their successors at the Oxford School (that is,
successors to the Muslims in Spain) that Roger Bacon learned Arabic
and Arabic science. Neither Roger Bacon nor his latter namesake has
any title to be credited with having introduced the experimental
method. Roger Bacon was no more than one of the apostles of Muslim
science and method to Christian Europe: and he never wearied of
declaring that Arabic science was for this contemporaries the only way
to true knowledge. Discussions as to who was the originator of the
experimental method ... are part of the colossal misrepresentation of
the origins of European civilisation. The experimental method of the
Arabs was by Bacon's time widespread and eagerly cultivated throughout
Europe.

Science is the most momentous contribution of the modern world; but its
fruits were slow in ripening. Not until long after Moorish culture had
sunk back into darkness did the giant which it had given birth to rise
in his might. It was not science only which brought Europe back to
life. Other and manifold influences from the civilization of Islam
communicated its first glow to European life.

For although there is not a single aspect of European growth in which
the decisive influence of Islamic culture is not traceable, nowhere is
it so clear and momentous as in the genesis of that power which
constitutes the permanent distinctive force of the modern world, and
the supreme source of its victory -- natural science and the
scientific spirit.

The debt of our science to that of the Arab does not consist in
starting discoveries of revolutionary theories; science owes a great
deal more to Arab culture, it owes its existence. The astronomy and
mathematics of the Greeks were a foreign importation never thoroughly
acclimatized in Greek culture. The Greeks systamized, generalized and
theorized, BUT THE PATIENT WAYS OF INVESTIGATION, THE ACCUMULATION OF
POSITIVE KNOWLEDGE, THE MINUTE METHODS OF SCIENCE, DETAILED AND
PROLONGED OBSERVATION AND EXPERIMENTAL INQUIRY WERE ALTOGETHER ALIEN
TO THE GREEK TEMPERAMENT. ONLY IN HELLENISTIC ALEXANDRIA WAS ANY
APPROACH TO SCIENTIFIC WORK CONDUCTED IN THE ANCIENT CLASSICAL
WORLD. What we call science arose in Europe as a result of a new
spirit of inquiry, or new methods of investigation, of the methods of
experiment, observation, measurement, of the development of
mathematics in a form unknown to the Greeks. That spirit and these
methods were introduced into the European world _BY_ the Arabs.

It is highly probable that but for the Arabs, modern European
civilization would never have arisen at all; it is absolutely certain
that but for them, it would not have assumed that character which has
enabled it to transcend all previous phases of evolution."

These frank and honest admissions from quarters which have imbibed the
spirit of scientific enquiry and search for truth from the original
Arab sources, go to confirm the basic soundness of those peoples and
their culture. Their culture was the direct result of the teachings
and the spirit of the Qur'an, which those early Arabs understood and
followed, IN THE BARE, BALD THEISM OF ISLAM, WITH ITS NEGATION OF
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY, OF MYTH, OF TRADITION, ALMOST DESTITUTE OF
RITUAL, AND ABOVE ALL, ENTIRELY OF PRIESTHOOD.

It would not be out of place here to make a brief mention of the
pioneers of science who owed their inspiration TO the Qur'an.

In the field of geography and commerce, the Caliph al-Mamun had
ordered the first measurement of a geographical degree in the Syrian
desert. Muhammad bin Musa was in charge of this survey party. This was
the beginning of the longitudinal and latitudinal survey of the globe
and the seventy scholars who were engaged on this study ultimately
produced the first map of the globe (813-833 C.E.). This activity of
the Arabs in the beginning of the ninth century was to be the
forerunner of Columbus's hazard across the seas five centuries later,
in the firm belief that the earth was a globe and not a flat saucer as
the Greeks had thought it to be. Thus in search for the Indian
continent, Columbus, who had been taught this knowledge of geography
by an Arab, found the American continent, which is today the most
advanced region of Western civilization. When Vasco da Gama after his
circumnavigation of the African continent in 1498 C.E. had reached
Malindi on the East Coast of Africa, it was an Arab pilot (Ahmad Ibn
Majid) who showed him the way to India. According to Portugese sources
this pilot was in possession of a very good sea map and of other
maritime instruments, hitherto unknown to European seafarers. This
Arab pilot is also known as the writer of a SAILING MANUAL for the
Indian Ocean, the Red Sea, the Persian Gulf, the South China Sea and
the East Indian Archipelago.

Al-Mas'udi (950 C.E.) was the Arab globetrotter who collected on his
travels a large amount of geographical and ethnographical
knowledge. He wrote several books, two of which are preserved in the
British Museum.

It was the Arab who in the first instance, translated all the then
extant knowledge in this field from the Greek sources and brought it
within the fold of THEIR own living language. This knowledge, but for
these translations, would have been lost to the world. Having
collected this knowledge, the Arabs started their own research and by
the EMPIRICAL METHOD they were able either to confirm or refute the
purely theoretical concepts which the Greek civilization had
laboriously produced. Al-Mamun created in Baghdad a regular school for
translation. One of the translators here was Hunian Ibn Ishaq (809-877
C.E.), a particularly gifted philosopher and a physician of wide
erudition. He translated practically the whole immense CORPUS of
Galenic writings. This amounted to a hundred Syriac and thirty-nine
Arabic versions of Galen's medical and philosophical books. He also
translated HIPPOCRATES' APHORISMS, the great synopsis of Oribasius and
the seven books of Paul of Aegina. Among the Arabic translations
ascribed to Hunian are works of other Greek physicians and veterinary
writers together with several Aristotelian physical works. Hunian's
own compositions are nearly as numerous as his translations. They
include many summaries and commentaries on Galen's work and skillful
abstracts and recapitulation in the form of textbooks for
students. His TEN TREATISES ON THE EYE is the earliest systematic text
book of opthalmology known.

* SOME MUSLIM SCHOLARS OF REPUTE *

We turn now from the translations to the original works of the
period. In physics, al-Kindi is the most frequently named scholar. No
less than 265 works are ascribed to this first Arab physicist and
scientist. Of these at least fifteen are on specific weights, on
tides, optics and notably on the reflection of light, and eight are on
music and sound. His OPTICS, preserved in a Latin translation,
influenced Roger Bacon and other Western men of science.

Another famous scientist and author of this period is al-Razi (865-925
C.E.). He is considered to be the greatest physician of the Islamic
world and at least one of the great physicians of all time. His
greatest medical work, and perhaps the most extensive ever written by
a medical man, is his AL-HAWI (The Comprehensive), which includes
Greek, Syriac and early Arabic medical knowledge in its entirety.

Jabir is world-famed as the father of Arabic alchemy. About 100
alchemic works ascribed to Jabir are in existence. From the practical
side Jabir described improved methods of evaporation, distillation,
sublimation, melting and crystallization.

Then comes Abu 'Ali al-Husain Ibn Sina, known universally to the West
as Avicenna (980-1037 C.E.). His gigantic CANON OF MEDICINE (Al-Qanun)
is the culmination and masterpiece of Arabic systemization: for, this
medical encyclopaedia deals with general medicine, simple drugs,
diseases affecting all parts of the human body, special pathology and
pharmacopaeia. The book was translated into Latin in the twelfth
century and the demand for it may be gleaned from the fact that in the
last thirty years of the fifteenth century it was issued sixteen times
and re-issued more than twenty times during the sixteenth
century. These figures do not include editions of portions of the
works. Apart from this, we owe to Avicenna to treatises on the
formation of mountains, stones and minerals. It is important for the
history of geology as discussing the influence of earthquakes, wind
temperature, sedimentation, desiccation and other causes of
solidification.

The Brethren of Purity (IKHWAN AL-SAFA), a secret society founded
in Mesopotamia in the tenth century, wrote an encyclopaedia composed
of fifty-two treatises, seventeen of which deal with natural
science. We find here discussions on the formation of minerals, on
earthquakes, tides, meteorological phenomena and the elements, all
brought into relation with the celestial spheres and bodies.

Meteorological studies were much in favour with the Muslims of the
later centuries, particularly those on balances. AL-Jazri finished in
1206 C.E. in Mesopotamia a great book on mechanics and clocks. "On the
side of mathematics, it must," in the words of the late Sir Mohammad
Iqbal, from his RECONSTRUCTION OF RELIGIOUS THOUGHTS IN ISLAM Oxford,
1932, "be remembered that since the day of Ptolemy (87-165 C.E.) till
the time of Nasir Tusi (1207-1274 C.E.) nobody gave serious thought to
the difficulties of demonstrating the certitude of Euclid's parallel
postulate on the basis of perceptual space. It was Tusi who first
disturbed the calm which had prevailed in the world of mathematics for
a thousand years."

Al-Biruni in his APPROACH TO THE MODERN MATHEMATICAL IDEA OF FUNCTION
saw, from a purely scientific point of view, the insufficiency of a
static view of the universe. Again, to quote Iqbal, "the
transformation of the Greek concept of 'Number' from pure magnitude to
pure relation really began with Khawarizmi's movement from arithmetic
to algebra. Al-Biruni took a definite step forward towards what
Spengier describes as chronological number which signifies the mind's
passage from being to becoming."

Side by side, with the progress of mathematical thought in Islam, we
find the idea of organic evolution gradually shaping itself. It was
Jahiz who was the first to note the changes in bird life caused by
migration. Later Ibn Miskawiah gave it the shape of a more definite
theory, adopted in his famous work, Al-Fauz Al-Ashgar. Ibn Miskawaih's
idea of life as an evolutionary movement and al-Biruni's approach to
the conception constituted the intellectual inheritence of Ibn
Khaldun, of the the greatest historians of the world and undoubtedly
the FOUNDER OF THE CONCEPTION OF NATURE AS A PRECESS OF BECOMING,
constituted the inheritence of Ibn Khaldun, one of the greatest
historians of all time, and the undoubtedly the FOUNDER OF THE
CONCEPTION OF HISTORY AS A SCIENCE -- A SCIENCE OF DEMONSTRATIVE CAUSE
AND EFFECT. This tendency to treat history as a science is a direct
emanation from the Qur'an itself, which lays the greatest emphasis on
a constant reminder of the historical Cause and Effect as a method of
assessing the importance and the trend of the developments of human
problems at any given period of time.

* THE EARLY MUSLIMS DID NOT INDULGE IN SCIENTIFIC PURSUITS MERELY
AS A MENTAL LUXURY *

The historical evidence which I have taken the liberty of recounting
somewhat at length goes clearly to show that it was not only in a
spirit of pure mental gymnastics that Islam laid such great emphasis
on the scientific master over the forces of nature but that early
Muslim history gives positive proof of the development of the Muslim
mind in the direction which the Qur'an had so emphatically impressed
upon it. These Muslim scientists did not indulge in scientific
pursuits purely as a mental luxury. Their intentions and objectives
were very clear and those were to fulfill the purpose of this existence
as enunciated by the Qur'an itself, namely, to obtain a mastery over
nature "without" by an integration and development of the forces
"within," man, and thereby to obtain that power which, when utilized
in the creative and positive direction would achieve for man his
transcendence over matter and thereby fit him for the next stage of
his evolutionary life, which obviously lies in the regions of cosmic
consciousness. The practical laboratory, which this existence
provides, is the crucible for humanity wherein man's final sublimation
is to take place. It is only after the achievement of that sublimation
that he can equip himself for the Existence Hereafter, where the
bounds of time and space as well as the constant phases of change will
have been mastered and controlled, this achieving an eternal and
conscience existence for Self, that is man, and not an obliteration or
negation of his entity which mysticism considers to be the goal of
life.

* HOW MUSLIMS CAN REGAIN THEIR LOST LEADERSHIP *

The rich heritage which Islam provided for this world appears to have
been divided into two parts. The major part, namely purely scientific
development, appears to have been taken up with both hands by the
West. The East appears to have got lost in the maze of its own mental
acrobatics. It is about time that an integration of both these aspects
of existence within, and the forces of nature without, bound and knit
together by all-pervading "Fundamental Values" was brought into
existence. The West today has advanced into the realms of nuclear
physics in their scientific pursuits. The Atom and the Hydrogen Bomb
along with an X-Bomb now, have begun to terrify humanity. Most of
scientific development is proceeding in a negative direction. There
are vast fields of research and activity in the positive and creative
direction also, which have still to be studied and mastered by the
inter-play of thought and empirical methods. For those who care to
study the Qur'an there are plenty of positive clues which will guide
them in the right direction. Mere mental gymnastics will not do; we
have to get down to acquiring a complete mastery for the utilization
and harnessing of the limitless energy which a Beneficient Providence
has stored for us in boundless Space. Positive and well directed
scientific research with constant empirical and practical checking up
and the technical "know-how" are the fields of activity for our young
minds to delve deep into, keeping constantly in mind the fact that
where the West has gone wrong is that it has ignored the fundamental
values which must govern the utilization of the benefits to be derived
from the mastery over the palpable universe. If we go forward with a
firm faith and behalf in the unity of Godhead and the consequent unity
of humanity and thereafter utilize our achievements for the benefit of
mankind as a whole, we have before us an immense field for
achievement. We shall then regain our lost leadership of mankind and
make our contribution in the fulfillment of the purpose of this
existence -- in its march and evolution forwards and upwards with ILA
RABBIKA MUNTAHAHA (79:44) (i.e., Towards the Sustainer lies its Goal),
as the limit for our achievements.

.......................................................................
--****ATTENTION****--****ATTENTION****--****ATTENTION****--***ATTENTION***
Your e-mail reply to this message WILL be *automatically* ANONYMIZED.
Please, report inappropriate use to ab...@anon.penet.fi
For information (incl. non-anon reply) write to he...@anon.penet.fi
If you have any problems, address them to ad...@anon.penet.fi

[Nasser Towghi]

In article <211338Z...@anon.penet.fi>, <an20...@anon.penet.fi> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>ISLAM AND SCIENCE
>
>For although there is not a single aspect of European growth in which
>the decisive influence of Islamic culture is not traceable, nowhere is
>it so clear and momentous as in the genesis of that power which
>constitutes the permanent distinctive force of the Modern world and
>the supreme source of its victory -- natural science and the
>Scientific spirit. It is highly probable that but for the Arabs modern
>European civilization would never have arisen at all; it is absolutely
>certain that but for them, it would not have assumed that character
>which has enabled it to evolve.
>

Dear whoever wrote this article,

I tried to read your article, first of all a comment on style (I know that
I am only to respond to...): draw it mild, I mean take a less pompous
approach in writting articles. For instance, why write "I shall endeavour to
recount presently" when it suffices to write "I will now give an account of..."
But thats matter of semantics, the real issue that
I have with the article is that,
how much bullshit is in it. It is absurd to think that people who
broke open the nucleas of atom would not be able to discover the knowledge
passed to them by Islamic(Arabs, Persians, etc) civilizations during and
after the middle-ages. In relation to discoveries/contributions made by
western civilization, the contribution of Islamic civilization is
rather small. Just how many pages would it take record the contribution
of Islam to Natural Sciences? Probably no more than 1000. I am a Muslim myself,
and don't want to put down Islam and the region where I am from, but I
wish, once for all, we would stop exaggerating our deeds, realize
our short commings, and put away bambastic and empty phrases which are of no
use here nor there (if there is a there); and get on with the business
at hand. That is, to make a honest (I mean an HONEST) buck,
to make that buck in your own country, feed our hungry stomachs,
find a clean way to shit and then, worry about
salvation of our and their soul and figuring
out all that abstract nonesense you have written.

I had lot more to say but.....Well, you have a right to preach,
May be when I am less irritated..., but right now I see that 1000 years
of Islam in middle east has resulted in 10 or 12 families ruling and having the
power of life and death over (however many people live there).
And please don't tell
me that "this is not Islam" or it has nothing to do Islam".
I am totaly ashamed(of mostly myself).

Now say goodnite and go to sleep.

Regards,
Nasser

>.......................................................................
>--****ATTENTION****--****ATTENTION****--****ATTENTION****--***ATTENTION***
>Your e-mail reply to this message WILL be *automatically* ANONYMIZED.
>Please, report inappropriate use to ab...@anon.penet.fi
>For information (incl. non-anon reply) write to he...@anon.penet.fi
>If you have any problems, address them to ad...@anon.penet.fi

But, I don't want to be anonymized. It doesn't sound safe.

[Kendall P. O'Donald]

In article <211338Z...@anon.penet.fi>, an20...@anon.penet.fi wrote:

> ISLAM AND SCIENCE
>
> For although...

Your article was very good. I contained some things that I had heard
and/or read about Islam and some things not. From the things that are
new to me I'll try to read about them and find out more. (The last
statement is meant to show that your article encouraged, at least, this
reader to research more.)

Thanks for posting.

-K

[an20...@anon.penet.fi]

ISLAM AND SCIENCE

For although there is not a single aspect of European growth in which
the decisive influence of Islamic culture is not traceable, nowhere is
it so clear and momentous as in the genesis of that power which
constitutes the permanent distinctive force of the Modern world and
the supreme source of its victory -- natural science and the
Scientific spirit. It is highly probable that but for the Arabs modern
European civilization would never have arisen at all; it is absolutely
certain that but for them, it would not have assumed that character
which has enabled it to evolve.

A common misconception which has a great hold on the minds of many,

For although there is not a single aspect of European growth in which

the decisive influence of Islamic culture is not traceable, nowhere is
it so clear and momentous as in the genesis of that power which

constitutes the permanent distinctive force of the modern world, and

the supreme source of its victory -- natural science and the

scientific spirit.

The debt of our science to that of the Arab does not consist in
starting discoveries of revolutionary theories; science owes a great
deal more to Arab culture, it owes its existence. The astronomy and
mathematics of the Greeks were a foreign importation never thoroughly
acclimatized in Greek culture. The Greeks systamized, generalized and
theorized, BUT THE PATIENT WAYS OF INVESTIGATION, THE ACCUMULATION OF
POSITIVE KNOWLEDGE, THE MINUTE METHODS OF SCIENCE, DETAILED AND
PROLONGED OBSERVATION AND EXPERIMENTAL INQUIRY WERE ALTOGETHER ALIEN
TO THE GREEK TEMPERAMENT. ONLY IN HELLENISTIC ALEXANDRIA WAS ANY
APPROACH TO SCIENTIFIC WORK CONDUCTED IN THE ANCIENT CLASSICAL
WORLD. What we call science arose in Europe as a result of a new
spirit of inquiry, or new methods of investigation, of the methods of
experiment, observation, measurement, of the development of
mathematics in a form unknown to the Greeks. That spirit and these
methods were introduced into the European world _BY_ the Arabs.

It is highly probable that but for the Arabs, modern European

civilization would never have arisen at all; it is absolutely certain
that but for them, it would not have assumed that character which has

.......................................................................

[bre...@phys.unit.no]

Hello, I read your review. Interesting, even if these things are well
known. (We learnt about the important contributions to science made by
arabic and persian scholars in school.) Nobody would deny the importance
of their work. And this gives hope for the future because science and
technology are necessary to solve the problems in ALL countries.

I have to correct you: Not ALL greec scholars believed that the earth was
flat! Even the approximate radius of the earth was known.

Regards,

Johannes Bremer

[Gregory Dandulakis]

In article <4prqe1$j...@due.unit.no>, <bre...@phys.unit.no> wrote:
...

>I have to correct you: Not ALL greec scholars believed that the earth was
>flat! Even the approximate radius of the earth was known.
>
>Regards,
>
>Johannes Bremer

More precisely, Eratosthenes, who lived in the 3rd century BC, had
estimated the radius of earth at 7,850 miles, which is only about
fifty miles shorter of the truth.

Gregory

[Muslim]

================================================FORWARDED==ARTICLE======

From mo...@aol.com Fri Aug 18 22:09:54 1995
Date: Sat, 19 Aug 1995 01:09:54 -0400

========================================================================

The Islamic empire in the early 6th. centuries were the inheritors of the
scientific tradition of late antiquity. They preserved it, elaborated it,
and finally, passed it to Europe (Science p3). At this early date, the
Islamic dynasty of the Umayyads envinced an interest in science. It was
the century that were, for Europeans, the Dark Ages, were, for Muslim
scholars, centuries of philosophical and scientific discovery and
development. The Arabs at the time not only assimilated the ancient wisdom
of Persia, and the classical heritage of Greece, but adapted their own
distinctive needs and ways of thinking
(Hitti 363).

The Islamic ability to reconcile monotheism and science

proofs to be a first time in human thought that theology,

philosophy, and science were finally harmonized in a unified

whole. Thus their contribution was "one of the first magnitude,

considering its effect upon scientific and philosophic thought

and upon the theology of later times" (Hitti 580). One of the

reason for such development of science is probably due to God's

commandment to explore the laws of nature. The idea is to admire

all creations for its complexity - to cherish the creator for the

ingenuity. Possibly holding to this believe, Islam's

contributions to science had covered many roots of thought

including mathematics, astronomy, medicine and philosophy. This

paper will examine these roots of natural science, and unearth

the contributions of the Islamic thinkers.

Islam's redound to encourage into thinking was accessed by

two other ancient cultures - the Persian and the Indians. They

became part of the Islamic heritage in the field of mathematics

(Hitti 373). About the year 600 A.H.-during the lifetime of

Prophet Muhammad - an Indian Muslim mathematician developed the

symbol "cipher" or zero and the system of placed notation. This

invention, first mentioned in a Syriac text written in 662 AD,

revolutionized the study of mathematics and made possible the

great achievements of Muslim mathematicians (Science p4).

PART TWO

Mathematical vocabulary such as "algebra" and "algorithm"

are actually borrowings from Arabic words, that were later

translated into Latin. It was a Muslim mathematician who

formulated the trigonometric function explicitly. The word "sine"

was actually the direct translation of the arabic word "jayb". An

English mathematician Robert of Chester, who flourished in the

middle of the twelfth century, was the first to use sinus

equivalent to this Arabic jayb in its trigonometrical acception

(Hitti 573). Al-Khwarizmi composed the oldest book on

mathematics, known only in translation. He presented more than

800 examples of the calculation of integration and equation,

later anticipated by Neo-Babylonians (Hitti 379)."As in

trigonometry so in Algebra Muslims must be considered as the

founders of this science whose very name reflects its origin...

al-Khwarizmi... firmly established this branch of mathematics"

(qtd. King 214). They introduced it with the Arabic numerals into

Europe and taught Westerners the most convenient convention of

arithmetic concept. "The zero and Arabic numerals lie behind the

science of calculation as we know it today" (Hitti 573-574).

In the first half of the ninth century, exponent numerals

including the zero is used in preference to letters by al-

Khwarizmi. In the second half of the ninth century, the Muslims

of Spain developed numerals slightly different in shape, huruf

al-ghubar (letters of dust), originally used in conjunction with

a type of sand abacus. Leonardo Fibonacci of Pisa, who was taught

by a Muslim master published a work which remain a landmark in

the introduction of the Arabic numerals (Hitti 573-574).

Early in the ninth century, mathematical calculations

stimulates the crave for answers to the celestial motion. This

curiosity introduces a new field of thought, called astronomy.

One most important application of astronomy is the timekeeping

for the time of the five daily prayers. These are defined

according to the position of the sun moving from east to west.

The earliest known tables for such purpose are dated from the

tenth century (King 46-48). As necessary to accurate timekeeping

as tables are the instruments used by the Muslims:

The magnificent sundial that ibn al-Shatir constructed in the

year 1371/72 to adorn the main minaret of the Umayyad Mosque

in Damascus. The sundial displays the time of day relative to

sunrise, midday, and sunset and relative to the afternoon

prayer. There are also special curves for times relative to

daybreak and nightfall. Thus the sundial effectively measures

time with respect to each of the five daily prayers (King

547).

An individual by the name of Ibn al-Sarraj devised a series of

astrolables, quadrants, trigonometric grids and other instruments

which are innovative to the extreme. "I consider Ibn al-Sarraj's

astrolable, which is universal from five different aspects, to be

the most sophisticated astrolable from the Near East and

Europe..." (King 544).

Al-Khwarizmi, the genius mathematician, at the time applied

his findings to the new field from which he composed the oldest

planetary tables, or the zij (King 39, Hitti 379). His work

serves as a reference text and were rendered into Latin in the

twelfth century by Gerard of Cremona (Hitti 571). Among the first

regular astronomical observatory tower constructed was in

Jundaysabur, south west of Persia, under the direction of Sind

ibn-'Ali, and Yahaya ibn-abi-Mansur. Being the Caliph's

astronomer, not only that they construct a systematic chart of

celestial movements, but also verified the fundamental elements

of the Almangest (Hitti 373-375). The astronomers of al-Mamun,

the Abbasid Caliph, made many original observations. One of the

most outstanding is the measurement of the meridian near Mosul.

It was found to be 111,814 meters, and measured a degree of

latitude at about 36x north to be 2877 feet (qtd. King 214-215).

"The object is to determine the size of the earth and its

circumference on the assumption that the earth was round" (Hitti

375).

In Spain, astronomical studies were cultivated after the

middle of the tenth century. They reproduced the Aristotelian

system, as distinguished from the Ptolemaic, the representation

of celestial movements. Abu-al-Qasim Maslamah al-Majriti (of

Madrid), the earliest Spanish Muslim astronomer edited and

corrected the zij (planetary tables of al-Khwarizmi), the first

tables composed by a Muslim. Among al-Majriti titles were al-

hisab or the mathematician, for he was considered the leader in

mathematical knowledge. About fourteen years later, the zij that

of al-Battani, was rendered into Latin by Plato of Tivoli.

Copernicus later quotes al-Battani in his book De revolutionibus

orbium coelestium . Al-Zarqali (known as Arzachel in Latin West)

the foremost astronomical observer of his age, deviced the

safihah, a type of astrolabe, that prove the motion of solar

apogee with reference to the stars (Hitti 570-71). Al-Bitruji,

known as Alpetragius developed a new theory of stellar movement

and wrote The book of Form in which it was detailed (Science p22

c3).

Arab astronomers left the sky immortal traces of their

findings. Not only are most of the star-names in European

languages are of Arabic origin (The Worlds Almanac and fact Book

p199 c2), but a number of technical term such as "azimuth" (al-

sumut), "nadir" (nazir), "zenith" (al-samt) are of Arabic

etymology. This testifies the rich legacy of Islam to Christian

Europe (Hitti 573).

The first of the Arabians, the rival indeed of Galen, was

the Persian Ibn Sina, or better known as Avicenna. He was given

the title 'the Prince of Medicine'. His most celebrated work is

Al-Qanun Fil-Tibb or "the Canon of Medicine." He is one of the

greatest names in the history of medicine. He could repeat the

Quraan by heart when he was ten years old, and by twelve he had

disputed in law and logic. He found that medicine was an easy

subject, not hard and thorny (Osler 98). "When I found a

difficulty," he says, "I reffered to my notes and prayed to the

creator" (qtd. Osler 98). His book was long and lengthy,

testifying many aspects of medicine. He classifies efficient

causes and symptoms of diseases. He said that diseases are caused

by the imbalance of the four elementary qualities of hot, wet

cold and dry in the body. Those caused by the faulty composition

or conformation of bodily parts, and those caused by trauma. The

cause of disease is categorize as either connected by the

environment, regimen, and psychology. Among them are the

traditional scheme of "non naturals" from air, food and drink,

repletion and inanition, to the passions of the soul. His book

also discuss concerns for the conservation of health: separate

sections on pediatric, adult, and geriatric regimen. Avicenna

provides twenty one fen on ailments distinctive to each major

organs of the body-arranged from head to toe. (Siraisi 21-22).

The "Black Death", in the middle of the fourteenth century

ravaged Europe while the Christians stood helpless. Ibn-al-

Khatib, a physician of Granada composed a treaties in defence of

the contagion theory and said:

To those who say, "How can we admit the possibility of

infection while the religious law denies it?" we reply that

the existence of contagion is established by experience,

investigation, the evidence on the senses and trustworthy

reports. These facts constitute a sound argument. The fact of

contagion becomes clear to the investigator who notices how

he who establishes contact with afflicted gets the disease,

whereas he who is not in contact remains safe, and how

transmission through garments, vessels and earrings (qtd.

Hitti 576).

The circulation of blood and the idea of quarantine came from an

empirical indication of contagion. It was discovered by Ibn al-

Nafis. Ibn Juljul of Cordoba in 943 became a leading physician at

the age of 24, compiled a book of special treaties on drugs found

in al-Andalus, the Iberian Peninsula (science p23). Ibn-Masawayh

wrote the oldest systematic treaties on opthamology. The book,

titled al-Ashr Maqalat fi al-'Ayn (the ten treaties of the eye)

was the earliest existing text book of opthmathology. In the

curative use of drugs, some amazing advances were made by the

Muslims. They have established the first apothecary shops, and

founded the earliest school of pharmacy (Hitti 364).

The Prince of Medicine, Avicenna, is himself a philosopher

(Arabic falsafah). Philosophy at the time is defined as the

knowledge of the true cause of things as they really are (Hitti

369). He is the first of the Arabic language who created a

philosophical system which is really complete and whole (Khan 5).

"It is noteworthy that Avicenna to his independent intellectual

attainments was without undue modesty" (Fakhry 149). From his

initial study of logic, he turned to the study of physics, and

metaphysics entirely on his own. He became the mentor of many

senior physician at the age of sixteen. By the age of eighteen,

he had mastered logic, physics and mathematics, so there was

nothing left for him to learn except to concentrate on

metaphysics. His major philosophical treaties is Kitab al-Shifa

or the Book of Healing , known in Latin by the title Sufficienta.

It is an encyclopedia of Islamic-Greek learning in the eleventh

century, ranging from logic to mathematics (Fakhry 149-150).

Another greatest patron of Philosophy and science in the

history of Islam is Caliph Al-Mamun. Son of Caliph Harun al-

Rashid, he encouraged on holding disputes in court on logical,

legal, and grammar (Rahman 182). He express with liberal

mindedness, great openness and equanimity (Fakhry 23). He

established in Baghdad his famous Bayt al-Hikmah (house of

wisdom) (Rahman 4), a combination library and academy which in

many respect is an important educational institution (Hitti 310).

This library contains books on all subjects-literature,

specifically Islamic sciences, natural sciences, logic,

philosophy, an many other subjects of thoughts (Rahman 182-183).

The greatest figure in the history of Islamic philosophy and

reaction to Neo Platonism is Imam al-Ghazali - a jurist,

theologian, philosopher and mystic. He said that the "Fiqh" is

the daily bread of believing soul, while the doctrine is only as

valuable as a medicine for the sick (De Boer 39). He also said

that he is being seized by the desire for the truth. He resolved

to search for a "certain knowledge" upon which the object known

in manner is not open to doubt at all. So if the truth were to be

challenged by a miracle-maker, it would withstand its claim -

solid (Fakhry 244-245). Fundamentally, al-Ghazali affirmed an

agnosticism about the ultimate and absolute nature of God. This

need for religious certainty impelled al-Ghazali to mysticism,

and led him back to the discovery of the Quraanic conception of

God. This revealed nature of God is constituted by the Divine

Names and Attributes (Rahman 95).

The first genuine philosopher to write in Arabic was al-

Kindi (Fakhry 9). He is the first peripatetic in Islam. He is

related in many ways to Mutazilite Dialecticians and the Neo-

Pythagorean Natural-Philosophers (DeBoer 97). He was a man of

extraordinary erudition which communicated observations as a

geographer, a historian of civilization and a physician (De Boer

99). Kindi is more than a philosopher. He was a chemist, an

optician and a music theorist (Hitti 370). "He was in no respect

a creative genius" (De Boer 99). The influence of al-Kindi as

author and teacher is mainly through his Mathematics, Geography

and Medicine (De Boer 105).

The intellectual history of the Arabs which the development

of philosophy and science in the Near East virtually begins with

the rise of Islam. Islam not only provide the Arabs with bold

world-view, but thrust them the cultural stage of the ancient

world and set before them their scientific and cultural

treasures. The first generation of Muslim scholars dedicated

themselves wholly to the fixing of a canon based primarily on the

Quran. This is because of the overwhelming sacredness of the

Quraan and the traditions of Prophet Muhammad (Fakhry 1-3). To

the Muslim scholars whose work is shown, the Quraan is the source

of all knowledge - the revelation of God (Science 32).

Many hints was given in the Quran as a prove of the All

Knowing. God says: "Verily God Knows The secrets of the Heavens

And earth:and God sees well all That ye do" (Quran 65:18). Some

of the hints that were mentioned are: "Do not the unbeliever see

that the heavens and earth Were joined together (as one Unit of

Creation), before We clove them asunder? We made from water Every

living thing. Will they not believe?" (Quran 21:30). God phrase "

Do not They Think...", in certain parts of the Quran after

illuminating natural phenomena unthought of by man. Such hints

enhanced man's curiosity and probably fueled their quest for

knowledge. As the roots of knowledge has been established, the

branches and leaves then flourished onto todays advance

technology. Such roots must never be forgotten as without solid

foundation, no pillars can be built and lived on.

----------------------------------------------------------------
Work cited
Business Week 22 Jul. 1985, page 90-91

De Boer, D. T. J.History of Philosophy in Islam ,1933.
Translation by Edward R. Jones. London: Luzac & Company Ltd, 1970.

Fakhry, Majid. A history of Islamic Philosophy .New York and
London: Columbia University Press, 1970.

Hitti, K.Phillip. History of the Arabs.New York: St. Martins
Press, 1970

Khan, M.S. The Philosophy of Avicenna. Delhi: Motilal
Banarsidass, First Edition 1969.

King, A. David. Islamic Mathematical Astronomy .London: Varioum
Reprints, 1986.

Osler, Sir William. The Evolution of Modern Medicine. New Haven:
Yale University Press, 1921.

Quran. Translation by A. Yusuf Ali. Maryland: Amana Corp, 1983

Rahman, Fazlur. ISLAM. Chicago:The University of Chicago Press,
Second edition 1979

Science : The Islamic Legacy: Worlds fair issue, 1987

Sirasi, G. Nancy. AVICENNA in Renaissance Italy. New Jersey:
Princeton University Press, 1987.

The World Almanac and Book of Facts. New York, 1988

*************************************************************************

============================================END==FORWARDED==ARTICLE===

[an20...@anon.penet.fi]

[jaf...@concentric.net]

In the name of Allah the Gracious the Merciful
And Salutations be upon Muhammad and his pure household.

Surely We offered the trust to the heavens and the
earth and the mountains, but they refused to bear
it and they were fearful of it and man bore it;
Surely he (proved) to be unjust and ignorant. (33:72)

In 'Uyoon al Akhbaar from al Imam al Rida (as)
concerning this verse:
"The Amaanat is the Wilaayat. Whoever claims it
without a right has disbelieved (kafar)."

Also from the same book from al Imam al Saadiq (as):
Surely Allah, the blessed and high, created the spirits
before the bodies by two thousand years, and He made
the most high and noble of them Muhammad and Ali and
Hasan and Husayn ('alayhim al Salaam) and the Imams
(sw), then he presented it (the Amanat) to the skies
and the earth and the mountains so their light fainted
(ghashiya nooruhum). So Allah, the blessed and high
said, "These are my beloved ones and my near ones
(awliyaa) and my proofs (hujaj) over my creation and
the leaders of my creation (bariyyah).
I have not created any creation more beloved to me
then them. For them and for they that are near to them
(tawallaahum) I have created my Paradise and for they
that oppose them and inimical
towards them I have created my Hell. So whoever claims
their position with me and their place in my greatness
I will punish him such a punishment that I will not
punish anyone like that in all the worlds and I will
place him with the Mushrikeen in the lowest level of
my Hell; and whoever affirms their Wilayat (Mastership)
and does not claim their position and place with my
greatness, I will place them with them in the meadows
of my Paradises and they will have whatever they want
with me and I will make allowed to them my Karaamat and
I will make them my neighbors and I will cause them to
be intercessors for the sinners among my servants, male
and female; so their Wilayat is an Amaanat with me to
my creation..."

In 'Awaali al Li aai, it is narrated that 'Ali (as), when
the time of Salaat came he would sweat and shake and his
color would change so it would be said to him,
"O Amir al Mu'mineen what is with you?"
So he would say, "Has come the time of Salaat; the time
of the Amaanat that Allah offered to the heavens and the
earth so they refused to bear it and they were fearful of it."

It appears from the above verse that humans were given a
choice about coming into the world and bearing the
responsibility of Khilaafat. (And when your Lord said to
the angels, "I am making a Khalifah on the earth."

In it's general sense all humans are meant to be the
representatives of God on the earth, those that have been
given the authority to exercise free will to such a great
level; Of course Khilafah in the general sense and for
it's specific sense it is reserved for the specially chosen
(like the Prophets and the Imams ).

Now in order for man to be the manifestation of the authority
of God on the earth, he must pledge complete submission,
bondage and servitude to the Lord of the worlds. He must
manifest that in his behavior in general (by remembering
Allah all the time and seeking His will) and in specific
(by performing the ritual acts of worship e.g. Salaat).
If man does not do this, (fulfill the conditions of the trust)
he becomes a rival of God and a rebel, a devil and a satan.
For man to climb higher in the realm of existence, he must
lower himself to God. The more he lowers himself to God,
the higher he reaches in the realm of existence
(The Prophet Muhammad and his household are as such).
There is no other way. If man seeks to reach higher but not
by this path (al 'Ubudiyyat), he becomes an enemy of God
like Fir'awn.
Then he gathered (the people) and called out,
"I am your Lord the Most High." (79:24)

To be continued

[AHeisten]

How boring. Imagine sitting around a paradise with nothing to do but
adore......Who?

Our christian Bible in Genesis says,"and the stars rejoiced when God
created man" That would indicate that God is reproducing himself but we
have to have the character, overcome the human/evil side in order to be
worthy for such a responsibility.

Evolution? Maybe. We are on the verge of evolving from animal/human to
god/spirit with galaxies we will rule. We have to conquer ourselves
first.

Houris? Don't make me laugh! After spending a lifetime waiting on some
man, I can't think a woman would want to go to "paradise". A

[Yousiph Canon]

Do you wanna tell me why you said "Allah" and not Jehova? Two
different Gods, you know. Allah is the Moslem version.

[The Duncan's]

Perhaps they are two different Gods, but I believe they are the same God
only we use two different names. God is God of the whole world,
regardless of our faith Yousiph.

JMD

[-Surensoy,E.]

The article below talks about the "achievements of the Islamic
Empire in the early 6th centuries". The sorry state of the Islamic
World today is not because of the "achievements of the Islamic
Empire in the early 6th centuries"; on the contrary, because of
its emperialism, opression and exploiutation century after century.

The sole purpose of an empire, regardless of religion, race,
languare, culture, geographic region, etc., is nothing but
emperialism, opression, and exploitation of innocent peoples
including the people of its origin for the benefit of just a
few; empires are not democratically elected or supprted by
people, they totally disrespect basic human rights and freedoms,
and they are the most painful times of human experience.

If a person brags about and is proud of "the achievements of an
empire", he/she is either a beneficiery of that system of opression
and exploitation, or just an misserable idiot whose brain washed
with the propaganda of that empire.

Secondly, the "achievements" of many centuries past, if there
were any, do not feed your hungry today, let alone the fact that
empires never feed the hungry anyway. If you cannot achieve now,
the past cannot do anything for you today; so, bragging about such
past "achievements" is nothing but hot air and wasting time and
energy.

../..

In article <adam3Dt...@netcom.com), Muslim <ad...@netcom.com> wrote:
)================================================FORWARDED==ARTICLE======
)
)From mo...@aol.com Fri Aug 18 22:09:54 1995
)Date: Sat, 19 Aug 1995 01:09:54 -0400
)
)========================================================================
)
)The Islamic empire in the early 6th. centuries were the inheritors of the
)scientific tradition of late antiquity. They preserved it, elaborated it,
)and finally, passed it to Europe (Science p3). At this early date, the
)Islamic dynasty of the Umayyads envinced an interest in science. It was
)the century that were, for Europeans, the Dark Ages, were, for Muslim
)scholars, centuries of philosophical and scientific discovery and
)development. The Arabs at the time not only assimilated the ancient wisdom
)of Persia, and the classical heritage of Greece, but adapted their own
)distinctive needs and ways of thinking
)(Hitti 363).
)
) The Islamic ability to reconcile monotheism and science
)
)proofs to be a first time in human thought that theology,
)
)philosophy, and science were finally harmonized in a unified
)
)whole. Thus their contribution was "one of the first magnitude,
)
)considering its effect upon scientific and philosophic thought
)
)and upon the theology of later times" (Hitti 580). One of the
)
)reason for such development of science is probably due to God's
)
)commandment to explore the laws of nature. The idea is to admire
)
)all creations for its complexity - to cherish the creator for the
)
)ingenuity. Possibly holding to this believe, Islam's
)
)contributions to science had covered many roots of thought
)
)including mathematics, astronomy, medicine and philosophy. This
)
)paper will examine these roots of natural science, and unearth
)
)the contributions of the Islamic thinkers.
)
)
) Islam's redound to encourage into thinking was accessed by
)
)two other ancient cultures - the Persian and the Indians. They
)
)became part of the Islamic heritage in the field of mathematics
)
)(Hitti 373). About the year 600 A.H.-during the lifetime of
)
)Prophet Muhammad - an Indian Muslim mathematician developed the
)
)symbol "cipher" or zero and the system of placed notation. This
)
)invention, first mentioned in a Syriac text written in 662 AD,
)
)revolutionized the study of mathematics and made possible the
)
)great achievements of Muslim mathematicians (Science p4).
)
)PART TWO
)
) Mathematical vocabulary such as "algebra" and "algorithm"
)
)are actually borrowings from Arabic words, that were later
)
)translated into Latin. It was a Muslim mathematician who
)
)formulated the trigonometric function explicitly. The word "sine"
)
)was actually the direct translation of the arabic word "jayb". An
)
)English mathematician Robert of Chester, who flourished in the
)
)middle of the twelfth century, was the first to use sinus
)
)equivalent to this Arabic jayb in its trigonometrical acception
)
)(Hitti 573). Al-Khwarizmi composed the oldest book on
)
)mathematics, known only in translation. He presented more than
)
)800 examples of the calculation of integration and equation,
)
)later anticipated by Neo-Babylonians (Hitti 379)."As in
)
)trigonometry so in Algebra Muslims must be considered as the
)
)founders of this science whose very name reflects its origin...
)
)al-Khwarizmi... firmly established this branch of mathematics"
)
)(qtd. King 214). They introduced it with the Arabic numerals into
)
)Europe and taught Westerners the most convenient convention of
)
)arithmetic concept. "The zero and Arabic numerals lie behind the
)
)science of calculation as we know it today" (Hitti 573-574).
)
)
) In the first half of the ninth century, exponent numerals
)
)including the zero is used in preference to letters by al-
)
)Khwarizmi. In the second half of the ninth century, the Muslims
)
)of Spain developed numerals slightly different in shape, huruf
)
)al-ghubar (letters of dust), originally used in conjunction with
)
)a type of sand abacus. Leonardo Fibonacci of Pisa, who was taught
)
)by a Muslim master published a work which remain a landmark in
)
)the introduction of the Arabic numerals (Hitti 573-574).
)
)
) Early in the ninth century, mathematical calculations
)
)stimulates the crave for answers to the celestial motion. This
)
)curiosity introduces a new field of thought, called astronomy.
)
)One most important application of astronomy is the timekeeping
)
)for the time of the five daily prayers. These are defined
)
)according to the position of the sun moving from east to west.
)
)The earliest known tables for such purpose are dated from the
)
)tenth century (King 46-48). As necessary to accurate timekeeping
)
)as tables are the instruments used by the Muslims:
)
)
) The magnificent sundial that ibn al-Shatir constructed in the
)
) year 1371/72 to adorn the main minaret of the Umayyad Mosque
)
) in Damascus. The sundial displays the time of day relative to
)
) sunrise, midday, and sunset and relative to the afternoon
)
) prayer. There are also special curves for times relative to
)
) daybreak and nightfall. Thus the sundial effectively measures
)
) time with respect to each of the five daily prayers (King
)
) 547).
)
)
)An individual by the name of Ibn al-Sarraj devised a series of
)
)astrolables, quadrants, trigonometric grids and other instruments
)
)which are innovative to the extreme. "I consider Ibn al-Sarraj's
)
)astrolable, which is universal from five different aspects, to be
)
)the most sophisticated astrolable from the Near East and
)
)Europe..." (King 544).
)
)
) Al-Khwarizmi, the genius mathematician, at the time applied
)
)his findings to the new field from which he composed the oldest
)
)planetary tables, or the zij (King 39, Hitti 379). His work
)
)serves as a reference text and were rendered into Latin in the
)
)twelfth century by Gerard of Cremona (Hitti 571). Among the first
)
)regular astronomical observatory tower constructed was in
)
)Jundaysabur, south west of Persia, under the direction of Sind
)
)ibn-'Ali, and Yahaya ibn-abi-Mansur. Being the Caliph's
)
)astronomer, not only that they construct a systematic chart of
)
)celestial movements, but also verified the fundamental elements
)
)of the Almangest (Hitti 373-375). The astronomers of al-Mamun,
)
)the Abbasid Caliph, made many original observations. One of the
)
)most outstanding is the measurement of the meridian near Mosul.
)
)It was found to be 111,814 meters, and measured a degree of
)
)latitude at about 36x north to be 2877 feet (qtd. King 214-215).
)
)"The object is to determine the size of the earth and its
)
)circumference on the assumption that the earth was round" (Hitti
)
)375).
)
)
) In Spain, astronomical studies were cultivated after the
)
)middle of the tenth century. They reproduced the Aristotelian
)
)system, as distinguished from the Ptolemaic, the representation
)
)of celestial movements. Abu-al-Qasim Maslamah al-Majriti (of
)
)Madrid), the earliest Spanish Muslim astronomer edited and
)
)corrected the zij (planetary tables of al-Khwarizmi), the first
)
)tables composed by a Muslim. Among al-Majriti titles were al-
)
)hisab or the mathematician, for he was considered the leader in
)
)mathematical knowledge. About fourteen years later, the zij that
)
)of al-Battani, was rendered into Latin by Plato of Tivoli.
)
)Copernicus later quotes al-Battani in his book De revolutionibus
)
)orbium coelestium . Al-Zarqali (known as Arzachel in Latin West)
)
)the foremost astronomical observer of his age, deviced the
)
)safihah, a type of astrolabe, that prove the motion of solar
)
)apogee with reference to the stars (Hitti 570-71). Al-Bitruji,
)
)known as Alpetragius developed a new theory of stellar movement
)
)and wrote The book of Form in which it was detailed (Science p22
)
)c3).
)
)
) Arab astronomers left the sky immortal traces of their
)
)findings. Not only are most of the star-names in European
)
)languages are of Arabic origin (The Worlds Almanac and fact Book
)
)p199 c2), but a number of technical term such as "azimuth" (al-
)
)sumut), "nadir" (nazir), "zenith" (al-samt) are of Arabic
)
)etymology. This testifies the rich legacy of Islam to Christian
)
)Europe (Hitti 573).
)
)
) The first of the Arabians, the rival indeed of Galen, was
)
)the Persian Ibn Sina, or better known as Avicenna. He was given
)
)the title 'the Prince of Medicine'. His most celebrated work is
)
)Al-Qanun Fil-Tibb or "the Canon of Medicine." He is one of the
)
)greatest names in the history of medicine. He could repeat the
)
)Quraan by heart when he was ten years old, and by twelve he had
)
)disputed in law and logic. He found that medicine was an easy
)
)subject, not hard and thorny (Osler 98). "When I found a
)
)difficulty," he says, "I reffered to my notes and prayed to the
)
)creator" (qtd. Osler 98). His book was long and lengthy,
)
)testifying many aspects of medicine. He classifies efficient
)
)causes and symptoms of diseases. He said that diseases are caused
)
)by the imbalance of the four elementary qualities of hot, wet
)
)cold and dry in the body. Those caused by the faulty composition
)
)or conformation of bodily parts, and those caused by trauma. The
)
)cause of disease is categorize as either connected by the
)
)environment, regimen, and psychology. Among them are the
)
)traditional scheme of "non naturals" from air, food and drink,
)
)repletion and inanition, to the passions of the soul. His book
)
)also discuss concerns for the conservation of health: separate
)
)sections on pediatric, adult, and geriatric regimen. Avicenna
)
)provides twenty one fen on ailments distinctive to each major
)
)organs of the body-arranged from head to toe. (Siraisi 21-22).
)
)
) The "Black Death", in the middle of the fourteenth century
)
)ravaged Europe while the Christians stood helpless. Ibn-al-
)
)Khatib, a physician of Granada composed a treaties in defence of
)
)the contagion theory and said:
)
)
) To those who say, "How can we admit the possibility of
)
) infection while the religious law denies it?" we reply that
)
) the existence of contagion is established by experience,
)
) investigation, the evidence on the senses and trustworthy
)
) reports. These facts constitute a sound argument. The fact of
)
) contagion becomes clear to the investigator who notices how
)
) he who establishes contact with afflicted gets the disease,
)
) whereas he who is not in contact remains safe, and how
)
) transmission through garments, vessels and earrings (qtd.
)
) Hitti 576).
)
)
)The circulation of blood and the idea of quarantine came from an
)
)empirical indication of contagion. It was discovered by Ibn al-
)
)Nafis. Ibn Juljul of Cordoba in 943 became a leading physician at
)
)the age of 24, compiled a book of special treaties on drugs found
)
)in al-Andalus, the Iberian Peninsula (science p23). Ibn-Masawayh
)
)wrote the oldest systematic treaties on opthamology. The book,
)
)titled al-Ashr Maqalat fi al-'Ayn (the ten treaties of the eye)
)
)was the earliest existing text book of opthmathology. In the
)
)curative use of drugs, some amazing advances were made by the
)
)Muslims. They have established the first apothecary shops, and
)
)founded the earliest school of pharmacy (Hitti 364).
)
)
) The Prince of Medicine, Avicenna, is himself a philosopher
)
)(Arabic falsafah). Philosophy at the time is defined as the
)
)knowledge of the true cause of things as they really are (Hitti
)
)369). He is the first of the Arabic language who created a
)
)philosophical system which is really complete and whole (Khan 5).
)
)"It is noteworthy that Avicenna to his independent intellectual
)
)attainments was without undue modesty" (Fakhry 149). From his
)
)initial study of logic, he turned to the study of physics, and
)
)metaphysics entirely on his own. He became the mentor of many
)
)senior physician at the age of sixteen. By the age of eighteen,
)
)he had mastered logic, physics and mathematics, so there was
)
)nothing left for him to learn except to concentrate on
)
)metaphysics. His major philosophical treaties is Kitab al-Shifa
)
)or the Book of Healing , known in Latin by the title Sufficienta.
)
)It is an encyclopedia of Islamic-Greek learning in the eleventh
)
)century, ranging from logic to mathematics (Fakhry 149-150).
)
)
) Another greatest patron of Philosophy and science in the
)
)history of Islam is Caliph Al-Mamun. Son of Caliph Harun al-
)
)Rashid, he encouraged on holding disputes in court on logical,
)
)legal, and grammar (Rahman 182). He express with liberal
)
)mindedness, great openness and equanimity (Fakhry 23). He
)
)established in Baghdad his famous Bayt al-Hikmah (house of
)
)wisdom) (Rahman 4), a combination library and academy which in
)
)many respect is an important educational institution (Hitti 310).
)
)This library contains books on all subjects-literature,
)
)specifically Islamic sciences, natural sciences, logic,
)
)philosophy, an many other subjects of thoughts (Rahman 182-183).
)
)
) The greatest figure in the history of Islamic philosophy and
)
)reaction to Neo Platonism is Imam al-Ghazali - a jurist,
)
)theologian, philosopher and mystic. He said that the "Fiqh" is
)
)the daily bread of believing soul, while the doctrine is only as
)
)valuable as a medicine for the sick (De Boer 39). He also said
)
)that he is being seized by the desire for the truth. He resolved
)
)to search for a "certain knowledge" upon which the object known
)
)in manner is not open to doubt at all. So if the truth were to be
)
)challenged by a miracle-maker, it would withstand its claim -
)
)solid (Fakhry 244-245). Fundamentally, al-Ghazali affirmed an
)
)agnosticism about the ultimate and absolute nature of God. This
)
)need for religious certainty impelled al-Ghazali to mysticism,
)
)and led him back to the discovery of the Quraanic conception of
)
)God. This revealed nature of God is constituted by the Divine
)
)Names and Attributes (Rahman 95).
)
)
) The first genuine philosopher to write in Arabic was al-
)
)Kindi (Fakhry 9). He is the first peripatetic in Islam. He is
)
)related in many ways to Mutazilite Dialecticians and the Neo-
)
)Pythagorean Natural-Philosophers (DeBoer 97). He was a man of
)
)extraordinary erudition which communicated observations as a
)
)geographer, a historian of civilization and a physician (De Boer
)
)99). Kindi is more than a philosopher. He was a chemist, an
)
)optician and a music theorist (Hitti 370). "He was in no respect
)
)a creative genius" (De Boer 99). The influence of al-Kindi as
)
)author and teacher is mainly through his Mathematics, Geography
)
)and Medicine (De Boer 105).
)
)
) The intellectual history of the Arabs which the development
)
)of philosophy and science in the Near East virtually begins with
)
)the rise of Islam. Islam not only provide the Arabs with bold
)
)world-view, but thrust them the cultural stage of the ancient
)
)world and set before them their scientific and cultural
)
)treasures. The first generation of Muslim scholars dedicated
)
)themselves wholly to the fixing of a canon based primarily on the
)
)Quran. This is because of the overwhelming sacredness of the
)
)Quraan and the traditions of Prophet Muhammad (Fakhry 1-3). To
)
)the Muslim scholars whose work is shown, the Quraan is the source
)
)of all knowledge - the revelation of God (Science 32).
)
)
) Many hints was given in the Quran as a prove of the All
)
)Knowing. God says: "Verily God Knows The secrets of the Heavens
)
)And earth:and God sees well all That ye do" (Quran 65:18). Some
)
)of the hints that were mentioned are: "Do not the unbeliever see
)
)that the heavens and earth Were joined together (as one Unit of
)
)Creation), before We clove them asunder? We made from water Every
)
)living thing. Will they not believe?" (Quran 21:30). God phrase "
)
)Do not They Think...", in certain parts of the Quran after
)
)illuminating natural phenomena unthought of by man. Such hints
)
)enhanced man's curiosity and probably fueled their quest for
)
)knowledge. As the roots of knowledge has been established, the
)
)branches and leaves then flourished onto todays advance
)
)technology. Such roots must never be forgotten as without solid
)
)foundation, no pillars can be built and lived on.
)
)----------------------------------------------------------------
)Work cited
)Business Week 22 Jul. 1985, page 90-91
)
)De Boer, D. T. J.History of Philosophy in Islam ,1933.
) Translation by Edward R. Jones. London: Luzac & Company Ltd, 1970.
)
)Fakhry, Majid. A history of Islamic Philosophy .New York and
) London: Columbia University Press, 1970.
)
)Hitti, K.Phillip. History of the Arabs.New York: St. Martins
) Press, 1970
)
)Khan, M.S. The Philosophy of Avicenna. Delhi: Motilal
) Banarsidass, First Edition 1969.
)
)King, A. David. Islamic Mathematical Astronomy .London: Varioum
) Reprints, 1986.
)
)Osler, Sir William. The Evolution of Modern Medicine. New Haven:
) Yale University Press, 1921.
)
)Quran. Translation by A. Yusuf Ali. Maryland: Amana Corp, 1983
)
)Rahman, Fazlur. ISLAM. Chicago:The University of Chicago Press,
) Second edition 1979
)
)Science : The Islamic Legacy: Worlds fair issue, 1987
)
)Sirasi, G. Nancy. AVICENNA in Renaissance Italy. New Jersey:
) Princeton University Press, 1987.
)
)The World Almanac and Book of Facts. New York, 1988
)
)*************************************************************************
)
)
)
)============================================END==FORWARDED==ARTICLE===

[Gul Agha]

Interesting that a recent writer extolling the virtuse of Islam for
science mentions Al-Khawarzimi and others who made major contributions
to science. What the writer is apparently ignorant of is that the
beliefs of these people would hardly qualify them as Muslim according
to the fundamentalists who hold court today. Here is the story..

Sometimes people wonder how science once flourished in Islamic society
(after all we have, Al Kindi writing treatises on logic and
mathematics, Al-Khwarzimi inventing Algebra, Ibn Rushd discovering the
laws of optics, Al Razi's contributions to medicine, Ibn-Sina writing
the classic Canon of Medicine, and the anthropologist Ibn Khaldun, to
name a few. In the tenth grade I organized a symposium on the
scientfic contribution of Muslims (of course, here we are talking
primarily about Arabs, Turks and Persians, although Akbar's court saw
some scientists gather) in my high school (as the organizer of the
science club).

Anyway, here are a few observations from Hoodbhoy's book, Muslims and
Science.

Now here is an interesting quote of M. Kaleemur Rehman in the MAAS
Journal of Islamic Sciences (vol. 3(1), pp54-55):

Many of the philosphers were either Mu`tazilites or
agnostics. Many of them practiced music, astrology or magic,
which are either prohibited or not encouraged by Islam.
Al Razi did not believe in revelations. Al Farabi depended on
on pure reason, not shariyah, for discriminating between good
and evil. Al Kindi denied divine attributes. Ibn Sina did
not believe in maad Jismani (resurrection of the body)...

In the end, the whole enterprise was ended by the orthodox
slaughtering the scientists and philosophers, and burning their
libraries. Al Kindi's library was ordered burnt and the sixty year
old scholar received 50 public lashes, the emir ordered Al Razi head
hit with his treatise until either his head or the book broke (Al Razi
lost his eyesight in the beating; when a colleague suggested eye
surgery, Al Razi responded: "I have seen enough of this world, I do
not cherish the idea of an operation for the hope of seeing more of
it.") Ibn Sina once got into a religious argument with the orthodoxy
and soldiers came to his house to behead him (forewarned, he escaped).
He had to flee persecution on numerous other occassions..

Here are samples of the orthodox ulema thinking through the centuries:

Ibn al-Haytham: "who claim to understand the essential nature of
things by the use of numbers, lines and points whose relevance I
cannot understand: indeed they weaken faith and cause conditions from
which we ask God's protection". (Note: the mullahs decreed weather
prediction to be kufr, since we should pray to Allah for good weather,
leading weather forecasts to be banned from radio and TV for a year in
Zia's time).

Here is Ibn-as-Salah (d 1251) on whether it is permissible to study
logic: "the foundation of all folly, the cause of all confusion, all
errors and all heresy. The person who occupies himself with it
becomes colorblind to the beauties of religious laws..
"as far as logic is concerned, it is a means of access to philosophy.
Now the means of access to something bad is also bad..
"All those who give evidence of pursuing the teachings of philosophy
must be confronted with the following alternatives: either execution
by the sword, or conversion to Islam.."

Ghazalli on Mathematics: "There are two drawbacks which arise from
mathematics. The first is tht every student of mathematics admires
its precision and the clarity of its demonstrations. This leads him
to believe in the philosophers and to think that all their sciences
resemble this one in clarity and demonstrative power. Further, he has
already heard .. accounts of their unbelief, their denial of God's
attributes, and their contempt for revealed truth: he becomes an
unbeliever.."

Ibn Hanbal declared: "every discussion about a thing the prophet
didn't discuss is in error". His eloquent denounciation of
rationalism led to rioting against the philosophers/scientists.

When word was brought to orthodox Sultan Khwarizm Shah of a land of
midnight sun, he regarded the report as pure heresy, for if such
information were accurate it would put into question the very
regulations which determine the times of various namaaz (the guy could
reason after all!). Only the great Biruni, who then lived in the
court of the Sultan could reassure him of the accuracy of the
travelers's report (and thus save the traveller's life!). But the
example of Abu Ma`shar al-Balkhi is oft cited proof of the harmful
effects of astronomy. This famous astronomer, was a pious theologian
in his younger days, was on his way from Khurasan to Mecca when he
chanced to visit the library of visier Munajjim. There "he became
engrossed in the astrological (and certainly astronomical) works to
such an extent that he became a heretic, and that was the end of the
Haj for him and also the end of din and Islam."

AK Brohi in modern times, "In my considered opinion, the Einsteinian
view of the behavior of moving particles, or the ultimate constituents
of matter, regarded from an Islamic perspective, is false." Never
mind the "Islamic perspective" on Darwin and modern genetics..

Considered opinions, indeed!

Anyway it is appears to me that mullahism is not compatible with
Science as the "learned mullahs" such as Ibn Hanbal, Ghazalli,
Ibn-as-Sallah, and numerous others demonstrate.

Peace,

Gul Agha
--
Peace,

Gul Agha

[Tomas Halldorsson]

"Keep on asking, and it will be given you;
keep on knocking, and it will be opened to you.
For everyone asking receives, and everyone seeking finds,
and to everyone knocking it will be opened.
from Sermon on the Mount
greatings

[Shaqeeqa]

Take this proselytizing OUT of the ISLAMIC GROUPS!!!

"I hear you knocking, but you CAN'T come in!"

:-)))))))

Shaqeeqa
--
"If Palestine should be lost while you still live, _..-.._..-.._..-.._..-.._..
I'll say: our people have abandoned the path." 'Abd al-Raheem Mahmoud
(Call of the Motherland @}-`--,-- Anthology of Modern Palestinian Literature)
-.._..-.._..-.._..-.. "I am a rebel and freedom is my cause." Y. Arafat ('74)

[Murat Kalinyaprak]

In <AGHA2.96J...@ganges.cs.uiuc.edu> Gul Agha wrote:

[ ..... Sorry that I had to shorten such a good article ......]

> When word was brought to orthodox Sultan Khwarizm Shah of a
> land of midnight sun, he regarded the report as pure heresy,
> for if such information were accurate it would put into
> question the very regulations which determine the times of

> various namaaz (the guy could reason after all!)............

What is the mullahs current stance on this, does anyone know...?

MK

[Kabeer Punjabi]

Muslim wrote:
>
>
> From mo...@aol.com Fri Aug 18 22:09:54 1995
>

You mean you are forwarding a reply that you received from Moin Ansari
in Chicago? Are you his mail-man?

Kabeer

[Kabeer Punjabi]

Isaac wrote:
>
> Prateek <apra...@netscape.com> wrote:
>
> >The subject itself is a contradiction.
>
> >--
> >Prateek
>
> The subject is (ISLAM AND SCIENCE) one entity thats why I've put it in
> brackets now what is this subject in contradiction with,
> Lets pick your peanut hindu brain who has been in slavery for
> centuries by us and the brits and see if you can come up with an
> answer.

Okay. Let's change it to "Issac and Intolerence".

Kabeer

[Muslim]

In article <31F430...@netscape.com> Prateek <apra...@netscape.com> writes:
>The subject itself is a contradiction.
>

>Prateek

From mo...@aol.com Fri Aug 18 22:09:54 1995

The Islamic empire in the early 7th Century were the inheritors of the

scientific tradition of late antiquity. They preserved it, elaborated it,

and finally, passed it to Europe (Science p3). At this early date, the

Islamic dynasty of the Umayyads envinced an interest in science. It was

the century that were, for Europeans, the Dark Ages, were, for Muslim

scholars, centuries of philosophical and scientific discovery and

development. The Arabs at the time not only assimilated the ancient wisdom

of Persia, and the classical heritage of Greece, but adapted their own

distinctive needs and ways of thinking

(Hitti 363).

The Islamic ability to reconcile monotheism and science

proves to be a first time in human thought that theology,

philosophy, and science were finally harmonized in a unified

whole. Thus their contribution was "one of the first magnitude,

considering its effect upon scientific and philosophic thought

and upon the theology of later times" (Hitti 580). One of the

reason for such development of science is probably due to God's

commandment to explore the laws of nature. The idea is to admire

all creations for its complexity - to cherish the creator for the

ingenuity. Possibly holding to this believe, Islam's

contributions to science had covered many roots of thought

including mathematics, astronomy, medicine and philosophy. This

paper will examine these roots of natural science, and unearth

the contributions of the Islamic thinkers.

Islam's redound to encourage into thinking was accessed by

two other ancient cultures - the Persian and the Indians. They

became part of the Islamic heritage in the field of mathematics

(Hitti 373). About the year 600 A.H.-during the lifetime of

Prophet Muhammad - an Indian Muslim mathematician developed the

symbol "cipher" or zero and the system of placed notation. This

invention, first mentioned in a Syriac text written in 662 AD,

revolutionized the study of mathematics and made possible the

great achievements of Muslim mathematicians (Science p4).

PART TWO

Mathematical vocabulary such as "algebra" and "algorithm"

are actually borrowings from Arabic words, that were later

translated into Latin. It was a Muslim mathematician who

formulated the trigonometric function explicitly. The word "sine"

was actually the direct translation of the arabic word "jayb". An

English mathematician Robert of Chester, who flourished in the

middle of the twelfth century, was the first to use sinus

equivalent to this Arabic jayb in its trigonometrical acception

(Hitti 573). Al-Khwarizmi composed the oldest book on

mathematics, known only in translation. He presented more than

800 examples of the calculation of integration and equation,

later anticipated by Neo-Babylonians (Hitti 379)."As in

trigonometry so in Algebra Muslims must be considered as the

founders of this science whose very name reflects its origin...

al-Khwarizmi... firmly established this branch of mathematics"

(qtd. King 214). They introduced it with the Arabic numerals into

Europe and taught Westerners the most convenient convention of

arithmetic concept. "The zero and Arabic numerals lie behind the

science of calculation as we know it today" (Hitti 573-574).

In the first half of the ninth century, exponent numerals

including the zero is used in preference to letters by al-

Khwarizmi. In the second half of the ninth century, the Muslims

of Spain developed numerals slightly different in shape, huruf

al-ghubar (letters of dust), originally used in conjunction with

a type of sand abacus. Leonardo Fibonacci of Pisa, who was taught

by a Muslim master published a work which remain a landmark in

the introduction of the Arabic numerals (Hitti 573-574).

Early in the ninth century, mathematical calculations

stimulates the crave for answers to the celestial motion. This

curiosity introduces a new field of thought, called astronomy.

One most important application of astronomy is the timekeeping

for the time of the five daily prayers. These are defined

according to the position of the sun moving from east to west.

The earliest known tables for such purpose are dated from the

tenth century (King 46-48). As necessary to accurate timekeeping

as tables are the instruments used by the Muslims:

The magnificent sundial that ibn al-Shatir constructed in the

year 1371/72 to adorn the main minaret of the Umayyad Mosque

in Damascus. The sundial displays the time of day relative to

sunrise, midday, and sunset and relative to the afternoon

prayer. There are also special curves for times relative to

daybreak and nightfall. Thus the sundial effectively measures

time with respect to each of the five daily prayers (King

547).

An individual by the name of Ibn al-Sarraj devised a series of

astrolables, quadrants, trigonometric grids and other instruments

which are innovative to the extreme. "I consider Ibn al-Sarraj's

astrolable, which is universal from five different aspects, to be

the most sophisticated astrolable from the Near East and

Europe..." (King 544).

Al-Khwarizmi, the genius mathematician, at the time applied

his findings to the new field from which he composed the oldest

planetary tables, or the zij (King 39, Hitti 379). His work

serves as a reference text and were rendered into Latin in the

twelfth century by Gerard of Cremona (Hitti 571). Among the first

regular astronomical observatory tower constructed was in

Jundaysabur, south west of Persia, under the direction of Sind

ibn-'Ali, and Yahaya ibn-abi-Mansur. Being the Caliph's

astronomer, not only that they construct a systematic chart of

celestial movements, but also verified the fundamental elements

of the Almangest (Hitti 373-375). The astronomers of al-Mamun,

the Abbasid Caliph, made many original observations. One of the

most outstanding is the measurement of the meridian near Mosul.

It was found to be 111,814 meters, and measured a degree of

latitude at about 36x north to be 2877 feet (qtd. King 214-215).

"The object is to determine the size of the earth and its

circumference on the assumption that the earth was round" (Hitti

375).

In Spain, astronomical studies were cultivated after the

middle of the tenth century. They reproduced the Aristotelian

system, as distinguished from the Ptolemaic, the representation

of celestial movements. Abu-al-Qasim Maslamah al-Majriti (of

Madrid), the earliest Spanish Muslim astronomer edited and

corrected the zij (planetary tables of al-Khwarizmi), the first

tables composed by a Muslim. Among al-Majriti titles were al-

hisab or the mathematician, for he was considered the leader in

mathematical knowledge. About fourteen years later, the zij that

of al-Battani, was rendered into Latin by Plato of Tivoli.

Copernicus later quotes al-Battani in his book De revolutionibus

orbium coelestium . Al-Zarqali (known as Arzachel in Latin West)

the foremost astronomical observer of his age, deviced the

safihah, a type of astrolabe, that prove the motion of solar

apogee with reference to the stars (Hitti 570-71). Al-Bitruji,

known as Alpetragius developed a new theory of stellar movement

and wrote The book of Form in which it was detailed (Science p22

c3).

Arab astronomers left the sky immortal traces of their

findings. Not only are most of the star-names in European

languages are of Arabic origin (The Worlds Almanac and fact Book

p199 c2), but a number of technical term such as "azimuth" (al-

sumut), "nadir" (nazir), "zenith" (al-samt) are of Arabic

etymology. This testifies the rich legacy of Islam to Christian

Europe (Hitti 573).

The first of the Arabians, the rival indeed of Galen, was

the Persian Ibn Sina, or better known as Avicenna. He was given

the title 'the Prince of Medicine'. His most celebrated work is

Al-Qanun Fil-Tibb or "the Canon of Medicine." He is one of the

greatest names in the history of medicine. He could repeat the

Quraan by heart when he was ten years old, and by twelve he had

disputed in law and logic. He found that medicine was an easy

subject, not hard and thorny (Osler 98). "When I found a

difficulty," he says, "I reffered to my notes and prayed to the

creator" (qtd. Osler 98). His book was long and lengthy,

testifying many aspects of medicine. He classifies efficient

causes and symptoms of diseases. He said that diseases are caused

by the imbalance of the four elementary qualities of hot, wet

cold and dry in the body. Those caused by the faulty composition

or conformation of bodily parts, and those caused by trauma. The

cause of disease is categorize as either connected by the

environment, regimen, and psychology. Among them are the

traditional scheme of "non naturals" from air, food and drink,

repletion and inanition, to the passions of the soul. His book

also discuss concerns for the conservation of health: separate

sections on pediatric, adult, and geriatric regimen. Avicenna

provides twenty one fen on ailments distinctive to each major

organs of the body-arranged from head to toe. (Siraisi 21-22).

The "Black Death", in the middle of the fourteenth century

ravaged Europe while the Christians stood helpless. Ibn-al-

Khatib, a physician of Granada composed a treaties in defence of

the contagion theory and said:

To those who say, "How can we admit the possibility of

infection while the religious law denies it?" we reply that

the existence of contagion is established by experience,

investigation, the evidence on the senses and trustworthy

reports. These facts constitute a sound argument. The fact of

contagion becomes clear to the investigator who notices how

he who establishes contact with afflicted gets the disease,

whereas he who is not in contact remains safe, and how

transmission through garments, vessels and earrings (qtd.

Hitti 576).

The circulation of blood and the idea of quarantine came from an

empirical indication of contagion. It was discovered by Ibn al-

Nafis. Ibn Juljul of Cordoba in 943 became a leading physician at

the age of 24, compiled a book of special treaties on drugs found

in al-Andalus, the Iberian Peninsula (science p23). Ibn-Masawayh

wrote the oldest systematic treaties on opthamology. The book,

titled al-Ashr Maqalat fi al-'Ayn (the ten treaties of the eye)

was the earliest existing text book of opthmathology. In the

curative use of drugs, some amazing advances were made by the

Muslims. They have established the first apothecary shops, and

founded the earliest school of pharmacy (Hitti 364).

The Prince of Medicine, Avicenna, is himself a philosopher

(Arabic falsafah). Philosophy at the time is defined as the

knowledge of the true cause of things as they really are (Hitti

369). He is the first of the Arabic language who created a

philosophical system which is really complete and whole (Khan 5).

"It is noteworthy that Avicenna to his independent intellectual

attainments was without undue modesty" (Fakhry 149). From his

initial study of logic, he turned to the study of physics, and

metaphysics entirely on his own. He became the mentor of many

senior physician at the age of sixteen. By the age of eighteen,

he had mastered logic, physics and mathematics, so there was

nothing left for him to learn except to concentrate on

metaphysics. His major philosophical treaties is Kitab al-Shifa

or the Book of Healing , known in Latin by the title Sufficienta.

It is an encyclopedia of Islamic-Greek learning in the eleventh

century, ranging from logic to mathematics (Fakhry 149-150).

Another greatest patron of Philosophy and science in the

history of Islam is Caliph Al-Mamun. Son of Caliph Harun al-

Rashid, he encouraged on holding disputes in court on logical,

legal, and grammar (Rahman 182). He express with liberal

mindedness, great openness and equanimity (Fakhry 23). He

established in Baghdad his famous Bayt al-Hikmah (house of

wisdom) (Rahman 4), a combination library and academy which in

many respect is an important educational institution (Hitti 310).

This library contains books on all subjects-literature,

specifically Islamic sciences, natural sciences, logic,

philosophy, an many other subjects of thoughts (Rahman 182-183).

The greatest figure in the history of Islamic philosophy and

reaction to Neo Platonism is Imam al-Ghazali - a jurist,

theologian, philosopher and mystic. He said that the "Fiqh" is

the daily bread of believing soul, while the doctrine is only as

valuable as a medicine for the sick (De Boer 39). He also said

that he is being seized by the desire for the truth. He resolved

to search for a "certain knowledge" upon which the object known

in manner is not open to doubt at all. So if the truth were to be

challenged by a miracle-maker, it would withstand its claim -

solid (Fakhry 244-245). Fundamentally, al-Ghazali affirmed an

agnosticism about the ultimate and absolute nature of God. This

need for religious certainty impelled al-Ghazali to mysticism,

and led him back to the discovery of the Quraanic conception of

God. This revealed nature of God is constituted by the Divine

Names and Attributes (Rahman 95).

The first genuine philosopher to write in Arabic was al-

Kindi (Fakhry 9). He is the first peripatetic in Islam. He is

related in many ways to Mutazilite Dialecticians and the Neo-

Pythagorean Natural-Philosophers (DeBoer 97). He was a man of

extraordinary erudition which communicated observations as a

geographer, a historian of civilization and a physician (De Boer

99). Kindi is more than a philosopher. He was a chemist, an

optician and a music theorist (Hitti 370). "He was in no respect

a creative genius" (De Boer 99). The influence of al-Kindi as

author and teacher is mainly through his Mathematics, Geography

and Medicine (De Boer 105).

The intellectual history of the Arabs which the development

of philosophy and science in the Near East virtually begins with

the rise of Islam. Islam not only provide the Arabs with bold

world-view, but thrust them the cultural stage of the ancient

world and set before them their scientific and cultural

treasures. The first generation of Muslim scholars dedicated

themselves wholly to the fixing of a canon based primarily on the

Quran. This is because of the overwhelming sacredness of the

Quraan and the traditions of Prophet Muhammad (Fakhry 1-3). To

the Muslim scholars whose work is shown, the Quraan is the source

of all knowledge - the revelation of God (Science 32).

Many hints was given in the Quran as a prove of the All

Knowing. God says: "Verily God Knows The secrets of the Heavens

And earth:and God sees well all That ye do" (Quran 65:18). Some

of the hints that were mentioned are: "Do not the unbeliever see

that the heavens and earth Were joined together (as one Unit of

Creation), before We clove them asunder? We made from water Every

living thing. Will they not believe?" (Quran 21:30). God phrase "

Do not They Think...", in certain parts of the Quran after

illuminating natural phenomena unthought of by man. Such hints

enhanced man's curiosity and probably fueled their quest for

knowledge. As the roots of knowledge has been established, the

branches and leaves then flourished onto todays advance

technology. Such roots must never be forgotten as without solid

foundation, no pillars can be built and lived on.

----------------------------------------------------------------
Work cited

Business Week 22 Jul. 1985, page 90-91

De Boer, D. T. J.History of Philosophy in Islam ,1933.

Translation by Edward R. Jones. London: Luzac & Company Ltd, 1970.

Fakhry, Majid. A history of Islamic Philosophy .New York and

London: Columbia University Press, 1970.

Hitti, K.Phillip. History of the Arabs.New York: St. Martins
Press, 1970

Khan, M.S. The Philosophy of Avicenna. Delhi: Motilal

Banarsidass, First Edition 1969.

King, A. David. Islamic Mathematical Astronomy .London: Varioum
Reprints, 1986.

Osler, Sir William. The Evolution of Modern Medicine. New Haven:

Yale University Press, 1921.

Quran. Translation by A. Yusuf Ali. Maryland: Amana Corp, 1983

Rahman, Fazlur. ISLAM. Chicago:The University of Chicago Press,
Second edition 1979

Science : The Islamic Legacy: Worlds fair issue, 1987

Sirasi, G. Nancy. AVICENNA in Renaissance Italy. New Jersey:
Princeton University Press, 1987.

The World Almanac and Book of Facts. New York, 1988

*************************************************************************

============================================END==FORWARDED==ARTICLE===

[Isaac]

Prateek <apra...@netscape.com> wrote:

>The subject itself is a contradiction.

>--

[Sheraz Shere]

Isaac wrote:
>The subject is (ISLAM AND SCIENCE) one entity thats why I've put it in
>brackets now what is this subject in contradiction with,
>Lets pick your peanut hindu brain who has been in slavery for
>centuries by us and the brits and see if you can come up with an
>answer.
>

It can't be one entity because they are mutually exclusive. You can
believe science or you can believe Islam which claims the universe
was created in 8 or 9 days and that the sun revolves around the
earth and whatever else your peanut muslim brain believes.

[Ahmad Rana]

Isaac wrote:

>Can you proof that it was or was not made in 7 days, until the science
>finds a concrete evidence which directly contradicts with
>Christanity/Judasim and Islam I will stick to the 7 day theory.

Until science finds a concrete evidence which contradicts with
Christanity/Judaism and Islam, I will stick to something more
sensible. Big bang theory is all right for me :-)

Ahmad.

[Fatima Ibrahim Al-Shirawi]

Sheraz Shere (sheraz) wrote:

Come on, Sheraz. Even you can't seriously assert that Islam
and science are mutually exclusive. Admittedly, there may be
certain points of contention which need to be resolved in the
relationship between the two philosophies, but mutual
incompatibility is a rather sweeping assertion.

Regards,

Saif Al-Shirawi.

[Muslim]

In article <4t5ib2$a...@cnn.Princeton.EDU> Sheraz Shere <sheraz> writes:
>It can't be one entity because they are mutually exclusive. You can
>believe science or you can believe Islam which claims the universe
>was created in 8 or 9 days and that the sun revolves around the
>earth and whatever else your peanut muslim brain believes.
>

Once again, Mr.Sheraz is using distortions, lies and
misinterpretations to support his false claims. But this
is nothing new for Mr.Sheraz.

This is what the brilliant Quran states :

Say: "Do you deny that God, Who created the earth in
TWO days (periods) ? He indeed is the Lord of all creation.
He set mountains over the earth (after its creation) and
bestowed blessings on it [1], and provided in it means
of sustenance adequately according to the needs and
demands of all those who ask [2]. This was done
in FOUR days (periods) [3]. Then He turned to the
heaven, which was only smoke at that time [4].
He said to the heaven and the earth: "Come ye together,
willingly or unwillingly." They both said, "We do
come in submission [5]. Then in TWO days He made
the seven heavens, and in each heaven He ordained its law,
and We adorned the lower heaven with lights and made it
fully secure. Such is the design of the One,
Who is the All-Mighty, the All-Knowing.

[1] "Blessings of the earth" imply those things that fulfill
the needs and requirements of all creatures.

[2] Allah placed within the earth the full provisions of food
precisely and exactly in accordance with the demands and
needs of every kind of creature.

[3] Here, the commentators generally have been confronted
with this question: If it is admitted that the creation
of the earth took two days and the setting up of the
mountains and placing of the provisions and blessings
in it took four days, and the creation of the heavens,
took another two days, the total number of the days
would be eight, whereas at several places in the Quran
Allah has said that the creation of the earth and heavens
took six days in all. (For example, see 7:54, 10:3,
11:7, and 25:59). This question can easily be answered
as follows: The two days of the creation of earth are
not separable from the two days in which this universe
as a whole was created. If we consider the following
verses, we see that in them the creation of both the earth
and the heavens has been mentioned together, and then
it has been stated that Allah made the seven heavens in two
days. These seven heavens imply the whole universe, one
part of which is also our earth. Then, when like the
other countless stars and planets of the universe this
earth also took the shape of a unique globe within
two days, Allah began to prepare it for animate creatures,
and in four days created in it all those provisions,
which have been mentioned in the above verse.

[4] By "smoke" is implied the initial and primary stages of matter,
in which it lay diffused in space in a shapeless, dustlike
condition before the formation of the universe. Scientists
of the modern age describe the same thing as nebulae, and
the same also is their view about the beginning of the universe,
that is, before creation the matter of which the universe
was built lay diffused in smoke-like nebulous form.

[5] The matter of the universe lay scattered and diffused in
the form of smoke. Allah willed to give it the
shape of the universe. For this purpose, He did not
have to sit down, like a human artisan, and chisel
and mould the earth, moon, sun and the
other stars and planets, but He only commanded the
scheme of the universe that was in His Mind to come into
being, i.e. the smoke-like diffused matter to take
the shape of the galaxies, stars and planets which He
wanted to create. This matter did not have the power
to resist the command of Allah. No sooner was the
Command given than the matter started contracting
and condensing and taking shape obediently according
to the scheme of its Master.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Final Destination of the Sun
-----------------------------

"(God) subjected the sun and the moon: each one runs
its course to an appointed term."
Quran,35:13

"The Sun runs its course to a settled place. This is the
decree of the All Mighty, the Full of Knowledge."
Quran,36:38

"Settled place" is the translation of the word 'mustaqarr' and
there can be no doubt that the idea of an exact place is
attached to it.

How do these statements fare when compared with data
established by modern science?
^^^^^^^^

The Quran gives an end to the Sun for its evolution and a
destination place. It also provides the Moon with a settled place.
To understand the possible meanings of these statements, we must
remember what modern knowledge has to say about the evolution of
the stars in general and the Sun in particular, and (by extension)
the celestial bodies that automatically followed its movement
through space, among them the Moon.

The Sun is a star that is roughly 4.5 billion years old,
according to experts in astrophysics. It is possible to
distinguish a stage in its evolution, as one can for all the
stars. At present, the Sun is at an early stage, characterized
by the transformation of hydrogen atoms into helium atoms.
Theoretically, this present stage should last another 5.5
billion years according to calculations that allow a total of 10
billion years for the duration of the primary stage in a star of
this kind. It has already been shown, in the case of these other
stars, that this stage gives way to a second period characterized
by the completion of the transformation of hydrogen into helium,
with the resulting expansion of its external layers and the cooling of the
Sun. In the final stage, its light is greatly diminished and
density considerably increased; this is to be observed in the type
of star known as a 'white dwarf'.

The above dates are only of interest in as far as they give
a rough estimate of the time factor involved, what is worth
remembering and is really the main point of the above, is the
notion of an evolution. Modern data allow us to predict that,
in a few billion years, the conditions prevailing in the solar
system will not be the same as they are today. Like other stars
whose transformations have been recorded until they reached their
final stage, it is possible to predict an end to the Sun.

The second verse quoted above (36:38) referred to
the Sun running its course towards a place of its own.

Modern astronomy has been able to locate it exactly and
has even given it a name, the Solar Apex: the solar system is
indeed evolving in space towards a point situated in the
Constellation of Hercules (alpha lyrae) whose exact location
is firmly established; it is moving at a speed already ascertained
at something in the region of 12 miles per second.

All these astronomical data deserve to be mentioned in the
relation to the two verses in Quran, since it is possible to
state that they appear to agree perfectly with modern scientific data.

Taken From:
Maurice Bucaille
The Bible The Quran And Science
'La Bible, le coran et la Science'
----------------------------------------------------------------------

QURAN: Orbits Are Set for The Sun and The Moon
-------------------------------------------------

"The sun must not catch up the moon, nor does the night
outstrip the day. Each one is travelling in an orbit
with its own motion." Quran,36:40

"(God is) the One Who created the night, the day, the sun and
the moon. Each one is travelling in an orbit with its own
motion." Quran,21:33

Here an essential fact is clearly stated: the existence of the
Sun's and Moon's orbits, plus a reference is made to the traveling
of these bodies in space with their own motion.

A NEGATIVE fact also emerges from a reading of these verses:
it is shown that the Sun moves in an orbit, but no indication is
given as to what this orbit might be in relation to the Earth. At
the time of the Quranic Revelation, it was thought that the Sun
moved while the Earth stood still.

The Arabic word 'falak' has here been translated by the
word 'orbit'; many French translators of the Quran attach to it
the meaning of a 'sphere'. This is indeed its initial sense.
Hamidullah translates it by the word 'orbit'.

The word caused concern to older translators of the Quran
who were unable to imagine the circular course of the Moon and the
Sun and therefore retained images of their course through space
that were either more or less correct, or hopelessly wrong.
Si Hamza Boubekeur in his translation of the Quran cites the
diversity of interpretations given to it: "A sort of axle,
like an iron rod, that a mill turns around; a celestial sphere,
orbit, sign of the zodiac, speed, wave...", but he adds the
following observation made by Tabari, the famous Tenth century
commentator: "It is our duty to keep silent when we do not
know." (XVII, 15). This shows just how incapable men were of
understanding about this concept of the Sun's and Moon's
orbit. It is obvious that if the word had expressed an
astronomical concept common in Muhammad's day, it would not have been
so difficult to interpret these verses. A new concept therefore
existed in the Quran that was not to be explained until centuries
later.

Taken From:
Maurice Brucaille
The Bible The Quran And Science
La Bible le Coran et la science
---------------------------------------------------------------------

QURAN: The Universe is Expanding
----------------------------------------------

The following is a verse of the Quran (51:47) where
God is speaking, may perhaps be compared with modern ideas:

"The heaven, We have built it with power. Verily,
We are expanding it."
Quran, 51:47

'Heaven' is the translation of the Arabic word 'sama' and this is
exactly the extra-terrestrial world that is meant.

'We are expanding it' is the translation of the plural present
participate musi'una of the verb ausa'a meaning 'to make wider,
more spacious, to extend, to expand'.

Some translators were unable to grasp the meaning of the
latter provide translations that appear to me to be mistaken,
e.g. "we give generously" (R. Blachere). Others sense the
meaning, but are afraid to commit themselves: Hamidullah in his
translation of the Quran talks of the widening of the heavens
and space, but he includes a question mark. Finally, there are
those who arm themselves with authorized scientific opinion in
their commentaries and give the meaning stated here. This is
true in the case of the Muntakab, a book of commentaries edited
by the Supreme Council for Islamic Affairs, Cairo. It refers
to the expansion of the Universe in totally unambiguous terms.

Taken from:
Maurice Bucaille
The Bible The Quran And Science
'La Bible, le Coran et la Science'

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------------------------------

"O assembly of Jinns (spirits) and Men, if you can penetrate
regions of the heavens and the earth, then penetrate!
You will not be able to penetrate them except with a
Power. So O Jinn and men, which of your Lord's
powers will you deny? If you try to escape, a flame
of fire and smoke shall be let loose upon you, which you
will not be able to withstand." Quran 55:33-36

Commentary & Analysis:

The word "if" expresses in English a condition that is
dependent upon a possibility AND either an achievable or
an unachievable hypothesis. Arabic is a language which
is able to introduce a nuance into the condition which is
much more explicit. There is one word to express the
possibility (ida), another for the achievable hypothesis
(in), and a third for the unachievable hypothesis
expresed by the word 'lau'. The verse in question
has it as an achievable hypothesis expressed by the word
'in'. The Quran therefore suggests the material
possibility of a concrete realization. This subtle
linguistic distinction formally rules out the purely
mystic interpretation that some people have (quiet wrongly)
put on this verse.

God is addressing the spirits (jinn) and humans (ins),
and not essentially allegorical figures.

To penetrate is the translation of the verb 'nafada'
followed by the preposition 'min'. According to
Kazimirski's dictionary, the phrase means 'to pass
right through and come out on the other side of a body'.
For example, an arrow that comes out on the other side.
It therefore suggests a deep penetration and emergence
at the other end into the regions in question.

The Power (sultan) these men will have to achieve this
enterprise would seem to come from the All-Mighty.

There can be no doubt that this verse indicates the
possibility men will one day achieve what we today
call (perhaps rather improperly) 'the conquest of
space.'. One must note that the text of Quran
predicts not only penetration through the regions
of the Heavens, but also the Earth, i.e. the exploration
of its depths.

The Arabic word 'shuwaz', as used in the original, means
the pure, smokeless flame, and 'nuhas' is the the gross
smoke without a flame. These two things, one after the
other, will be let loose upon the men and jinn, when
they try to penetrate the regions.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Explanation/Translations from:

'La Bible, le coran et la Science'
Maurice Bucaille
(The Bible, The Quran, And Science)

The Meaning of Quran
S. Abul A'la Maududi
------------------------------------------------------------------------

----------------------------------------------------------------------
==========================================================================

[Sheraz Shere]

Isaac wrote:
>>It can't be one entity because they are mutually exclusive. You can
>>believe science or you can believe Islam which claims the universe
>>was created in 8 or 9 days and that the sun revolves around the
>>earth and whatever else your peanut muslim brain believes.

>Can you proof that it was or was not made in 7 days, until the science
>finds a concrete evidence which directly contradicts with
>Christanity/Judasim and Islam I will stick to the 7 day theory.
>

>Isaac
>

Science has provided concrete evidence that the universe was not created
in 7 days. You choose to ignore it. You go ahead and stick to your
7 day theory.

By the way, do you also believe that the sun revolves around the Earth?

Also, a "day" is the time it takes the earth to rotate on it's axis
once. So what meaning does a "day" have before the Earth exists?

[Sheraz Shere]

fa...@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu (Fatima Ibrahim Al-Shirawi) wrote:
>
>Come on, Sheraz. Even you can't seriously assert that Islam
>and science are mutually exclusive. Admittedly, there may be
>certain points of contention which need to be resolved in the
>relationship between the two philosophies, but mutual
>incompatibility is a rather sweeping assertion.
>
>Regards,
>
>Saif Al-Shirawi.

True, I should not say "mutually exclusive", I stand corrected.
But someone who denies the fact that there are some things that
are incompatible is just as wrong.

Sheraz

[Isaac]

[Bahman Farhanieh]

It is sad to read objects who call act as human to write :

"It can't be one entity because they are mutually exclusive. You can
believe science or you can believe Islam which claims the universe
was created in 8 or 9 days and that the sun revolves around the
earth and whatever else your peanut muslim brain believes."

With no name, no identity, no address etc. therefore i consider it as
a computer error that caused the alphabets to gather in this way to resulting
in the above paragraph.!!

[Bahman Farhanieh]

Oh well done!!?

since you can define the time as we know it, thus there is no other time definition in the
universe.

Just think before you express you views. It is as if someone says there are other
dimensions than the four dimension we know of, I SUPPOSE you are going
to send a mail saying; " bla bla bla bla blabla bla bla blabla bla bla .....".

It is the lack of human knowledge that forces some of us to b... s... more often
than it requires.

[V.Tripathi]

> in the above paragraph.!!_______________________________________________________________________
Which ALPHABETS ? I see only one alphabet.

Vikram

[Saad Alfoudari]

V Tripathi writes:
In article <31F815...@hermes.cam.ac.uk> "V.Tripathi" <vt...@hermes.cam.ac.uk> writes:

vt201> Muslim wrote:
>> >Also, a "day" is the time it takes the earth to rotate on it's
>> axis >once. So what meaning does a "day" have before the Earth
>> exists?
>>

>> ANd that day varies depending on your location on earth. A day can
>> be 6 months long or 24 hours long depending on where you are on
>> earth (near the north pole, or near the equator) Quran used the
>> wored "day" to mean period.
>>

vt201> No my dear, irrespective of wherever you are on earth, the
vt201> time period of earth's rotation is 24 hours, which brings us
vt201> back to the question of what is the meaning of a 'day' before
vt201> the earth existed.

In one place in the qur'an, God says that a day in his terms is equal
to a thousand of our calculations. This probably means that each day
was equievalent to 1000 years of our known timing. Another day (in
another place) is described to be equievalent to 50,000 years, and
this could be used to show that the term day in general could be
variable, and hence, is used to mean a period of time.wallahu a'alam.

vt201> Vikram

[ci...@d0sb01.fnal.gov]

In article <Dv40G...@beaver.cs.washington.edu>, naut...@cs.washington.edu (Himanshu Nautiyal) writes:
>Muslim (ad...@netcom.com) wrote:

>: >Science has provided concrete evidence that the universe was not created

>: >in 7 days. You choose to ignore it. You go ahead and stick to your
>: >7 day theory.
>

>: Universe was NOT created in 7 days. According to QUran, it was
>: created in 6 days (periods).
>
> 6 sidereal days or 6 solar days?

6 days which can mean anything from 6 x 0 to 6 x inf, depending on the
interpretation of the mullah! :>>>

[Isaac]

Sheraz Shere <sheraz> wrote:

>Science has provided concrete evidence that the universe was not created
>in 7 days. You choose to ignore it. You go ahead and stick to your
>7 day theory.

BTW science has not provided CONCRETE evidence yet.
Evidence! yes BUT with lots of loop holes. And any theory with loop
holes has been proved wrong in the past.

>By the way, do you also believe that the sun revolves around the Earth?
Where does it says in Koran (dont know about Bible) that the sun
rotates around the earth.

>Also, a "day" is the time it takes the earth to rotate on it's axis
>once. So what meaning does a "day" have before the Earth exists?

If god made the universe in X amount of time than it is a possibility
that the Amighty would call that X a week and set the rotation of
earth accordingly to create conditions on this planet which are
suitable to sustain life.
There are people out there who do not believe in a creater but I
believe that it did start somewhere. The systematic movements of the
heavens and the complexities of life there has to be some inteligence
behind this wonder.

[Muslim]

Have not the people, who have disbelieved (the Message),
ever considered this: the heavens and the earth were at
first one mass; then We parted them [1], and created
every living thing from water [2] ? Do they not
acknowledge (that this is Our Creation?) And We
set mountains firmly in the earth lest it should tilt to
one side along with them [3], and We left therein open
paths [4], so that they may find their way [4].
And We made the sky a safe canopy [5], but in spite of this
they do not pay due heed to its signs . And
it is Allah, Who has made the night and the day and
created the sun and the moon; all of them are
floating, each in its own orbit [6]

[1] From the word of the Text, it appears that at first
the whole universe was a single mass of matter; then it
was split into different parts and the earth and the other
heavenly bodies were formed.

[2] From the word of the Text, it appears that Allah made water
the cause and origin of life.

[3] This shows that the real function of mountains is to regulate
the motion and speed of the Earth. We have come to this
conclusion for the Quran has made this benefit of
mountains very prominent in many places. Therefore, their other
benefits should be regarded as incidental.

[4] "Open paths" are the passes between high mountains and the
valleys and ravines made by the rivers in the mountains regions
and other natural ways that connect different regions on the
earth.

[5] This is a very meaningful sentence. It may mean that the people
may find paths for travelling on the earth, and it may also mean
that the wisdom that underlies the skill and the system of
their creation may guide them to the Reality.

[6] That is, "Those signs which are in the sky".

==========================================================================
Translations/Explanations from Maududi's Tafseer.
==========================================================================

[Muslim]

>Science has provided concrete evidence that the universe was not created
>in 7 days. You choose to ignore it. You go ahead and stick to your
>7 day theory.

Universe was NOT created in 7 days. According to QUran, it was

created in 6 days (periods).

>By the way, do you also believe that the sun revolves around the Earth?

No.

>Also, a "day" is the time it takes the earth to rotate on it's axis
>once. So what meaning does a "day" have before the Earth exists?

ANd that day varies depending on your location on earth.

A day can be 6 months long or 24 hours long depending on
where you are on earth (near the north pole, or near the equator)
Quran used the wored "day" to mean period.

Say: "Do you deny that God, Who created the earth in

TWO days (periods) ? He indeed is the Lord of all creation.
He set mountains over the earth (after its creation) and
bestowed blessings on it [1], and provided in it means
of sustenance adequately according to the needs and
demands of all those who ask [2]. This was done
in FOUR days (periods) [3]. Then He turned to the
heaven, which was only smoke at that time [4].
He said to the heaven and the earth: "Come ye together,
willingly or unwillingly." They both said, "We do
come in submission [5]. Then in TWO days He made
the seven heavens, and in each heaven He ordained its law,
and We adorned the lower heaven with lights and made it
fully secure. Such is the design of the One,
Who is the All-Mighty, the All-Knowing.

[1] "Blessings of the earth" imply those things that fulfill
the needs and requirements of all creatures.

[2] Allah placed within the earth the full provisions of food
precisely and exactly in accordance with the demands and
needs of every kind of creature.

[3] The two days of the creation of earth are

[Saad Alfoudari]

Sheraz Shere writes:
In article <4t5ib2$a...@cnn.Princeton.EDU> Sheraz Shere <sheraz> writes:

sheraz> Isaac wrote:
>> The subject is (ISLAM AND SCIENCE) one entity thats why I've put it
>> in brackets now what is this subject in contradiction with, Lets
>> pick your peanut hindu brain who has been in slavery for centuries
>> by us and the brits and see if you can come up with an answer.
>>

sheraz> It can't be one entity because they are mutually
sheraz> exclusive. You can believe science or you can believe Islam
sheraz> which claims the universe was created in 8 or 9 days and that
sheraz> the sun revolves around the earth and whatever else your
sheraz> peanut muslim brain believes.

You don't seem to be very familiar to the Qur'an much. It was six
days, but in the same time, God mentiones that a day in his terms is
equal to 1000 years of our reconing. Regardless of that, a person can
even say that the universe was created in less than a second, if you
take the theory that all the universe was one small mass before the
(theoretical) big bang. I don't have much information about what
happened in each of the six days, but it's not the same as the six
days in the bible (which contains a lot of dating problems.)

And who says that the qur'an says "the sun revolves around the earth"
? I don't think that even the bible says that.

Regarding science. What is the period in which science says the
universe was formed ?

salam

[V.Tripathi]

Muslim wrote:

> >Also, a "day" is the time it takes the earth to rotate on it's axis
> >once. So what meaning does a "day" have before the Earth exists?
>
> ANd that day varies depending on your location on earth.
> A day can be 6 months long or 24 hours long depending on
> where you are on earth (near the north pole, or near the equator)
> Quran used the wored "day" to mean period.
>

No my dear, irrespective of wherever you are on earth, the time
period of earth's rotation is 24 hours, which brings us back to the
question of what is the meaning of a 'day' before the earth existed.

Vikram

[Khorasanee MZ]

>
> This is what the brilliant Quran states :
>
> Say: "Do you deny that God, Who created the earth in
> TWO days (periods) ? He indeed is the Lord of all creation.
> He set mountains over the earth (after its creation) and
> bestowed blessings on it [1], and provided in it means
> of sustenance adequately according to the needs and
> demands of all those who ask [2]. This was done
> in FOUR days (periods) [3]. Then He turned to the
> heaven, which was only smoke at that time [4].
> He said to the heaven and the earth: "Come ye together,
> willingly or unwillingly." They both said, "We do
> come in submission [5]. Then in TWO days He made
> the seven heavens, and in each heaven He ordained its law,
> and We adorned the lower heaven with lights and made it
> fully secure. Such is the design of the One,
> Who is the All-Mighty, the All-Knowing.
>
>
>
> [1] "Blessings of the earth" imply those things that fulfill
> the needs and requirements of all creatures.
>
> [2] Allah placed within the earth the full provisions of food
> precisely and exactly in accordance with the demands and
> needs of every kind of creature.

The study of fossils and bones shows that many species, such as our own,
first appeared on the earth long after the first life-forms emerged, and
many other creatures (such as the dinosaurs) became extinct long before
we came into being. Thus, it would be literally impossible for Allah to do
what you have claimed.

Zaki

[Khorasanee MZ]

On 24 Jul 1996, Sheraz Shere wrote:

> Science has provided concrete evidence that the universe was not created
> in 7 days. You choose to ignore it. You go ahead and stick to your
> 7 day theory.
>

> By the way, do you also believe that the sun revolves around the Earth?

>
> Also, a "day" is the time it takes the earth to rotate on it's axis
> once. So what meaning does a "day" have before the Earth exists?
>

It does have meaning because we can also define our unit of time in terms
of other phenomena. The "second" is now defined in terms of the
radioactive decay of the Caesium, and one day = 24*3600 seconds.

But I agree with the point you are making.

Zaki

[Ahmad Rana]

bah...@ifi.uio.no (Bahman Farhanieh) wrote:

>With no name, no identity, no address etc. therefore i consider it as
>a computer error that caused the alphabets to gather in this way to resulting
>in the above paragraph.!!

But that is entirely against the concept of creation. The creationinsts
believe that life couldn't have started when different chemicals gathered
in a certain way resulting in formation of protiens just by chance, which
in turn combined to produce life. So it must have been CREATED. Creating
something seems to take some time as well, and since seven is a sound
figure (after all, there are seven days in a week), it must have been
created in seven days. Or six days, perhaps. On the seventh day the creator
must have taken a rest. Its a big universe. He must have been quite tired
after creating the earth and the heavens. That's quite logical, so it must
have happened that way. I myself can't even work for five days straight.
On friday I just can't stop thinking that the weekend is going to start
at the end of the day. I wonder if the creator would have gone to a pub
in the evening and later to a nightclub to treat himself on doing such a
wonderful job. I would.

Ahmad,
(that's definitely a name).

[Himanshu Nautiyal]

<Newsgroups & followups lines trimmed a bit>

Muslim sez

: This is what the brilliant Quran states :

: Say: "Do you deny that God, Who created the earth in
: TWO days (periods) ? He indeed is the Lord of all creation.
: He set mountains over the earth (after its creation) and
: bestowed blessings on it [1], and provided in it means
: of sustenance adequately according to the needs and
: demands of all those who ask [2]. This was done

The purpose of religion is to help humans overcome fears while
they are too immature to do so on their own strength. Sort of like
telling a child that there is a fairy godmother looking out for her.

Once we have grown enough to not need this crutch, we should
get rid of it fast to retain rationality.

The kind of stretching you are putting the words of the
Quran to ("smoke" means "nebulae", of course, how can anyone be
stupid enough to doubt that) to say that God put everything in the
Quran, does not indicate an open mind or receptivity to argument.
Still I will try.

Suppose, I came across this one sentence scripture -
"You will find out the truth" and that is it. So, when we make any
discovery, it is only a fulfilment of God's words and if we dont,
well he didnt say when, so just have faith and wait. Each and every
occurrence in the world can be moulded to fit that sentence, either
as a corroboration or at least neutralized as certainly not a
contradiction of it.

Do you see the absurdity? Such a scripture is true,
but would anyone who presented a logical (yeah in precise first
order logic) proof to show that all human knowledge is implied
by the above statement be received with anything but a nervous
smile and backward glances to check the nearest exit?

Basically, science and religion are opposite forces. You
are perfectly entitled to your choice of one. But trying to reconcile
the two will tie you up in knots. Because, science tells you NOT
TO BELIEVE, but to ask to be CONVINCED, while religion does the
converse. Of course, there is an interesting situation where people
start believing in science. I think Asimov wrote an interesting
story on this. Cant recall the title, something like "Levitation".
But that is material for another thread.

Himanshu

[Himanshu Nautiyal]

Muslim (ad...@netcom.com) wrote:
: >Science has provided concrete evidence that the universe was not created

: >in 7 days. You choose to ignore it. You go ahead and stick to your
: >7 day theory.

: Universe was NOT created in 7 days. According to QUran, it was

: created in 6 days (periods).

6 sidereal days or 6 solar days?

[Saad Alfoudari]

Ahmad Rana writes:
In article <4t7ma2$f...@bignews.shef.ac.uk> Ahmad Rana <rana> writes:

rana> bah...@ifi.uio.no (Bahman Farhanieh) wrote:
>> With no name, no identity, no address etc. therefore i consider it
>> as a computer error that caused the alphabets to gather in this way
>> to resulting in the above paragraph.!!

rana> But that is entirely against the concept of creation. The
rana> creationinsts believe that life couldn't have started when
rana> different chemicals gathered in a certain way resulting in
rana> formation of protiens just by chance, which in turn combined to
rana> produce life. So it must have been CREATED. Creating something
rana> seems to take some time as well, and since seven is a sound
rana> figure (after all, there are seven days in a week), it must have
rana> been created in seven days. Or six days, perhaps. On the seventh
rana> day the creator must have taken a rest. Its a big universe. He
rana> must have been quite tired after creating the earth and the
rana> heavens. That's quite logical, so it must have happened that
rana> way. I myself can't even work for five days straight. On friday
rana> I just can't stop thinking that the weekend is going to start at
rana> the end of the day. I wonder if the creator would have gone to a
rana> pub in the evening and later to a nightclub to treat himself on
rana> doing such a wonderful job. I would.

Sorry, but I had an urge for laphing when I read this.

I would like to know whether you are talking about the Qur'an or the
bible. It is plasphomy to say that God rested after the creation of
the universe. This only exists in the bible. The qura'n mentiones that
God "Istawa" over the throne. This word is by no means equivalent to
"rested". Even though some people will disagree about it's exact
meaning, but resting is not one of the arguments, unless you are a
christian.

The christian chreationests argument largely depends on the period of
time, and that the universe is supposed to have been created in a
short time. The islamic perspective doesn't include that. The argument
is that what ever happened (the forming of the DNA), it was planned,
and not resulted by chaose. The possibility of it happening is
(according to the claim) impossible, since the chance of it happening
is much to small to happen (remember that it depends on amino acids,
and although they can be available, but they aren't available enough
to support any kind of DNA formation.)

Please, don't confuse what is in the bible with what is in the Qur'an.

rana> Ahmad, (that's definitely a name).

salam

[Muslim]

[Muslim]

[Kabeer Punjabi]

Saad Alfoudari wrote:
>
[Text deleted]

> You don't seem to be very familiar to the Qur'an much. It was six
> days, but in the same time, God mentiones that a day in his terms is
> equal to 1000 years of our reconing. Regardless of that, a person can
> even say that the universe was created in less than a second, if you
> take the theory that all the universe was one small mass before the
> (theoretical) big bang. I don't have much information about what
> happened in each of the six days, but it's not the same as the six
> days in the bible (which contains a lot of dating problems.)
>

Gentleman,

Can you please quote a reference in Qu'ran that one day (in God's
calendar) equals 1000 years for human?

Kabeer

[Muslim]

In article <4t8gfj$g...@fnnews.fnal.gov> ci...@D0SB01.FNAL.GOV writes:
>6 days which can mean anything from 6 x 0 to 6 x inf, depending on the
>interpretation of the mullah! :>>>

Mullahs don't know how to interpret the "science" verses in Quran,
and often are wrong. Scientists like Keith Moore, Head of University
of Toronto Anatomy Department, and french physician Maurice Bucaille,
and others have done excellent job on interpreting and explaining parts of
the Quran (verses) releaved to a desert Arabs in 7th century, which
didn't make sense to them at that time.

I will give you 2 examples of the above mentioned scientists:

Embryology and Life Sciences in Quran
----------------------------------------------------------------------

"The Developing Human. Clinically Oriented Embryology"
K.L. Moore

5th Edition, Philadelphia, W.B. Saunders Co. (1982)
ISBN 07216 4662-X
$33.95

--------------------------------------------------------------------

The work by Prof. Keith Moore is probably the most detailed study of
the subject. Prof. Keith Moore is Professor and Chairman of the
Department of Anatomy, University of Toronto.

His books on anatomy and on embryology are used at many medical school
as standard instruction books. The Yale Medical school uses both his
books. The Yale Bookstore phone number for Medical books is:
(203) 772-2081. Their general information number is (203)
432-4771. (New Haven, Connecticut)

He is *the* authority on embryology. I strongly recommend the
latest edition of the latter book as it mentions how accurately the
Qur'an describes embryo development.

Prof. Moore has said:

"It has been a great pleasure for me to help clarify statements in
the Qur'an about human development. It is clear to me that these
statements must have come to Muhammed from God or Allah because
almost all of this knowledge was not discovered until many
centuries later.
This proves to me that Mohammed must have been a messenger of God
or Allah."

Prof. Marshal Johnson, Professor and Chairman of the Department of
Anatomy and Director of the Daniel Baugh Institute, Thomas Jefferson
University, Philadelphia

He says:

"The Qur'an describes not only the development of external form but
emphasizes also the internal stages -- the stages inside the embryo
of its creation and development, emphasizing major events recognized
by contemporary science.... If I were to transpose myself into that
era, knowing what I know today and describing things, I could not
describe the things that were described. I see no evidence to
refute the concept that this individual Mohammed had to be developing this
information from some place, so I see nothing in conflict with the
concept that Divine Intervention was involved...."

--------------------------------------------------------------------

To receive a copy of the article that Moore wrote about

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Commentary & Analysis:

Explanation/Translations from:

'Highlights of Human Embryology in the Koran and Hadith'
please e-mail me

[ci...@d0sb01.fnal.gov]

In article <fawad.8...@news.cern.ch>, fa...@surya11.cern.ch (Sayed Fawad Hassan) writes:
>ci...@D0SB01.FNAL.GOV writes:

>>I have a copy of the article. He gives the following verse (among
=====
(_This_ was a mistake on _my_ part, should have been
"hadith", not "verse". The part you underlined is
correct as it stands
since Moore's article that is being posted
all over the net has the title (subject)
"Embrology in Quran", in which he uses the _hadith_.)

>>many others) as an example of the accuracy of Quran in embryology:
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV
>
>>(Kitab Al-Qadar) Sahih MUSLIM
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>This is not a reference to the Quran. The quote below seems to be from
>the book of Qadar (power?) in Sahih Muslim. This is one of the hadith
>collections named after its collector, Muslim. Unlike the wording of
>the versus of Quran, it is not believed that a narrator may not have
>changed the wording of a narration.

I know. I corrected myself in a later posting. When I said "Embrology
in Quran", I was quoting from Moore's text (or rather, title). The hadith
is also given in Moore's text to support his claims. In my correction
I made it clear that it was a _hadith_, not a _verse_ from Quran as _I_ had
stated erroneously. Still, it is a fact that _Moore_ uses the hadith to
support his views. Now, the point I am making is how any honest
academician can use such a hadith to support his claims that Quran
gives an accurate description of embroyology. Mistakes are many, as you
state the first:

1. Why use hadiths to support claims about Quran? I personally think
this is somewhat of a nitpicky argument since if he had managed to
soundly demonstrate that both Quran and hadiths agreed with modern
science, I would not care much if he used "Quran" in places where
"Islam" would be more appropriate (see below).

2. Ok, I can accept that hadiths form the second most important source
of information in Islam. In this way of thinking, they are an integral
part of the religion and cannot be left out in discussion of Quran.
Fine. But how can the above hadith be considered accurate in view of
modern science? It surely is not as I read it. I challenge anybody to
claim otherwise.

3. Further, I can accept that the hadith may not be genuine.
But, if there was doubt that this hadith was not genuine,
he should have not used it to support his claims, period.

Whichever way you look at it, there is something fishy in this
'scientific' study. My _guess_ is, Moore gave the Saudis something
to chew on while he used the resources supplied by them to do some
'real' research. I would like to hear from people with firsthand
information on the subject - especially who sponsored him and if
there were any conditions, or a purpose to the research.

[Sal Schettino]

I the U.S and other places in the world science is taking genes from
animals,plants,insects and viruses and mixing them together and I was
wondering is there any one beside me does not want these folks to mix up
the clean with the unclean. One Example: They are taking human genes
putting them in a pig so that someday they will be able to put them in
man if he needs blood or organs .People are releasing gene altered life
now as we speak and I was woundering what religious leaders have to say
about genetic engeneering.

This is my reasoning:
You response shows me that it's true and its going to happen. So they
are
taking things that are clean and making them unclean and releasing them
into
the world. What kosher religious leaders in the Jewish community are you
talking to that say its ok to put pork genes in plants and animals we
eat.
What true Muslim group are you talking to that doesn't mind a little
pork
gene in the beef or plants he eats and what vegetarian community like
the
idea of putting animal genes in plant we eat. So you talked to the
Jewish
and Muslim community . Who gave you the ok in those communities? Don't
forget their are many more religions then the ones you named and I still
say
mixing up genes will mix up these folks that do not agree with you. So
you
think you know the whole story. I don't think any man knows the whole
story
and the people that think they know the whole story worry me. I'm not
pointing any fingers I'm pointing out that not every one feels the same
about transgenic produce and we all live on the earth where these man
made
gene spliced frankenstein plants,animals and even insects are being
released. I also do not feel that gene splicing is the same as good
breeding. Do they have to mix up nature so much to make their moneys?
Remember the first sin was an angel that thought he knew more than God.

. At 04:37 PM 7/15/96 -0700, Andrew Singer wrote:
>In response to Sal Schettino's email which follows regarding transgenic
>plants/produce:
>
>You should know that the issue of inserting genes from animals into
>produce has been addressed by religious leaders. The Jewish community
>has accepted the insertion of foreign genes on the premise that a gene
>doesn't represent the animal, and consequently doesn't make the product
>unkosher, etc. The Muslim community last I heard has not made an
>official stand on the issue, but are leaning the same way.
>

>By the way, I support your effort to keep the
>world in check, but make sure you know the whole story before you start
>your crusade. And even more importantly, if you know the whole story,
>make sure you remember it when you start pointing fingers.

[V.Tripathi]

What an incredible escape!! Whatever is the time spent on the
supposed creation, just divide it by six and say it was in six such
periods. How about ten then?

Vikram

Muslim wrote:
>
> In article <31F815...@hermes.cam.ac.uk> "V.Tripathi" <vt...@hermes.cam.ac.uk> writes:

> > No my dear, irrespective of wherever you are on earth, the time
> >period of earth's rotation is 24 hours, which brings us back to the
> >question of what is the meaning of a 'day' before the earth existed.
> >Vikram
>

> You're using modern definition of "day", which is 24 hours.
> However, in order to understand Quran, one must look
> at the 7th century defintion of "day", because that is when
> Quran was revealed. The definition back then was
> the time elapsed between 2 consecutive sunsets.
>
> But, this verse is talking about periods. In the context,
> the "6 days" is used to denote 6 distinguishable time periods.
> Universe was created in 6 periods.

[Kabeer Punjabi]

Muslim wrote:

>
> In article <31F8D8...@ix.netcom.com> Kab...@ix.netcom.com writes:
> >Gentleman,
> >
> >Can you please quote a reference in Qu'ran that one day (in God's
> >calendar) equals 1000 years for human?
> >
> >Kabeer
>

> From: Tuf...@bbs.c4systm.com (Tufail)
> ===================================================================
> Date: 7 Aug 1995 21:48:51 -0700
>
> >>>> It appears to a casual reader that man's future is predetermined
> because God in the Qur'an states:
> "...He knoweth what (appears to His creatures as)
> before or after or behind them..." [2:255]
>
> However this is only an illusion. Only when we integrate the God' Law
> of relativity and understand the real nature of time the conflict would
> fade away.
>
Gentleman,

You need to learn how to write precisely to the point. Compare the
following response to all the junk you wrote. Nobody has time to read
10-12 pages of your opinion. It's Holy Qu'ran that counts.

"Sura 32:5

Jochen Katz
http://www.math.gatech.edu/~jkatz/Islam/

P.S. Compare to Sura 70:4"

Did you get the point?

Kabeer

[Bob Kirk]

Greetings,

I think there may be one thing that we are all missing in this discussion
of the creation. As far as I know, the creation accounts of Genesis and
the Qur'an are the similar, so being more familiar with Genesis, I will
comment on it here.
If one looks at Chapter 1 through chapter 2 verses 4 or 8, we see that the
story perspective is told from quite a different point of view than the
section that follows, that is, 2:8 onward.
The initial account is told from God's perspective (an omniscient
observer) with respect to the earth. Having said that we must look at the
nature of the creation to understand the implication this perspective
would have.
The universe as we know it has 4 dimensions (3 spacial, and one
temporal(time)), as well as 6 theoretical 'microscopic' dimensions. The
point is, all are parts of what was created in the act of creation.
Therefore, God is not confined by these dimensions. The implication, is
that God is simply 'outside' time. All times, any time, and no time he
could have assigned to his creative acts would be correct. I suggest that
it may be possible that God simply (and absolutely accurately) assigned
six 24 hour days to his work, when giving the account to Moses. To God,
the creation was likley 'instantaneous', though again a meaningless term
in the realm of timeless eternity. Yet another reason (if anyone needed
another) to be amazed at the power and glory of God.
From about 2:8 onward, the story is then from man's perspective with
respect to the earth.

Peace in Christ,
Bob Kirk

Isaiah 49:16 'I will not forget you. See, I have engraved you on the palms
of my hands'

[Muslim]

[Muslim]

In article <Pine.SOL.3.91.960725142730.17906B-100000@exeter> Khorasanee MZ <sh...@city.ac.uk> writes:
>The study of fossils and bones shows that many species, such as our own,
>first appeared on the earth long after the first life-forms emerged, and
>many other creatures (such as the dinosaurs) became extinct long before
>we came into being. Thus, it would be literally impossible for Allah to do
>what you have claimed.
>Zaki

Can you be a little more specific ? I'm not sure if I understood
your argument.

[ci...@d0sb01.fnal.gov]

I have a copy of the article. He gives the following verse (among

many others) as an example of the accuracy of Quran in embryology:

VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV

(Kitab Al-Qadar) Sahih MUSLIM

"When forty two nights have passed over the Nutfah, Allah sends an
angel to it, who shapes it and makes its ears, eyes, skin, flesh
and bones. Then he says, "O Lord! Is it male or female?"
And your Lord decides what He wishes and then the angel
records it"

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

And then he goes on to explain that 42nd day roughly corresponds to
the time the embryo develops visible sex appendages, completely
overlooking the claim that sex is _determined_ on 42nd day (according
to Quran) and the possibilty that Arabs of that time knew that the
sex organs became _visible_ about that time. Of course the Arabs would
have no idea whether the sex of the offspring was _determined_ at that
time or before, all they observed was that it became visible around
that time. So they made a guess about when the sex was _determined_,
which turned out to be a rather unlucky one in retrospect..

This alone is enough for me to suspect his honesty as an academician.
How can an embrologist be so unaware of the existance of chromosomes to
give the above verse as an example to support his claims that Quran
makes precise statements about embrology? Sex of the foetus is
determined at 42nd day eh?? What a joke!!!

Not to accuse him or anything but I gather he was in Saudi Arabia at
that time - Anybody knows who his research was supported by ? And did
he do any other (real) research at that time (besides giving the
Saudis' something to chew on) ? Just asking questions..

[ci...@d0sb01.fnal.gov]

In article <adam3Dv...@netcom.com>, ad...@netcom.com (Muslim) writes:

>In article <4tb9b4$g...@fnnews.fnal.gov> ci...@D0SB01.FNAL.GOV writes:

>Quoting from Moore's book:
>
>".. hadith according to Moslem states that the angel will come
>to the Nutfah 40-45 nights after it settles in the uterus. (page 56)
>
>...Hadith according to Moslem states that 42 days after the nutfah
>forms, God sends an angel to its features and to create its hearing,
>vision, skin, flesh, and bones. 'Oh, God', the angel asks,
>'male or female ?' (page 57).

>Now, again, can you please tell me where the "inaccuracy" you
>alleged Moore of quoting (in hadith) is ?
>Or perhaps I misunderstood your argument, in which case,
>can you please make it a little bit more clearer?

According to this hadith, is it possible for any human being to know
before the 42nd day (say on the 17th day) to know the gender of the
embryo or not. Please answer with either a "yes", a "no", or an
"I dont know"..

>Also, about the questions you asked about connecting Saudi's & Moore:
>All I can say is that that is a rather lame attempt
>to try to discredit a well known scientist.

I just asked some question. Do you have the answers or not?

[Jeremiah McAuliffe]

m.k.ir...@fys.uio.no (Kambiz Iranpour) wrote:

>The abstract notion of pan-Islamism which refutes nationalism
>has shown to be more of a mirage. Isamic movements have shown
>that they are very much susceptible to a national identity
>when they come into a power position.

Salaams,

Yes. This is why you'll rarely hear a Muslim say that there exists an
Islamic government anywhere on the planet.

>In Afghanistan they are even
>subject to tribal rivalry and tribal interpretations of what
>Islam is !!

Funny. Its the same in Pittsburgh, PA, USA. ;-)

>The utopiansim of Pan-Islamism has always been more of a powerful
>popular concept rather than a reality. It is like
>the notion of Internationalism in communism.

Not at all. Communism is false... it denies too much of what human
reality is like.... Islam is profoundly wholistic and takes into
account all aspects of human expression: physical, social, subjective
and spiritual. Communism denied the spiritual and ignored the
subjective.

>At the end I am NOT all against applying these concepts !!
>It seems that it is simply the way we human beings interact,
>through utopianism and myth-making !!

I agree. We need to distinguish between utopianism and Islamization

[ci...@d0sb01.fnal.gov]

In article <fawad.8...@news.cern.ch>, fa...@surya11.cern.ch (Sayed Fawad Hassan) writes:
>ci...@D0SB01.FNAL.GOV writes:

>>In article <adam3Dv...@netcom.com>, ad...@netcom.com (Muslim) writes:

>>>In article <4tb9b4$g...@fnnews.fnal.gov> ci...@D0SB01.FNAL.GOV writes:

>>>Quoting from Moore's book:
>>>
>>>".. hadith according to Moslem states that the angel will come
>>>to the Nutfah 40-45 nights after it settles in the uterus. (page 56)
>>>
>>>...Hadith according to Moslem states that 42 days after the nutfah
>>>forms, God sends an angel to its features and to create its hearing,
>>>vision, skin, flesh, and bones. 'Oh, God', the angel asks,
>>>'male or female ?' (page 57).
>>>
>>>Now, again, can you please tell me where the "inaccuracy" you
>>>alleged Moore of quoting (in hadith) is ?
>>>Or perhaps I misunderstood your argument, in which case,
>>>can you please make it a little bit more clearer?

>>According to this hadith, is it possible for any human being to know
>>before the 42nd day (say on the 17th day) to know the gender of the
>>embryo or not. Please answer with either a "yes", a "no", or an
>>"I dont know"..

>Why do you want an answer only in "yes", "no" or "I don't know"?
>For example, if the Hadith does not even address the issue of gender
>determination by a human being, then a "yes", "no" or "I do not know"
>answer to your question does not exit. In that case, the only answer is
>that "the mentioned hadith does not adress this issue".

That is _why_ I included "I dont know" as an answer.. Besides, although
you have responded with an entire paragraph (thus not honoring my
request anyway), you have not given _any_ answer, even a straight
"the hadith does not address the issue". If you do not like the
phrase "for any human being", replace it "for any being other than
God" or whatever you feel as appropriate.

>As we know it, before the sixth week, it is very difficult, if not
>impossible, to determine the gender by sonography or visual techniques.
>It is however possible to do so using more sophisticated methods.

I thought the hadith said Allah told the angel only after the 6th
week. That is what it says in the hadith, doesnt it? Can anyone
know something Allah has not made known? Are we humans able to
know some fact the angel is unable to find out without asking Allah?
Or if Allah fixed the gender of the baby before the 6th week, is it not
sloppy of him not to tell his angels about this until the 6th
week and cause the poor angel another extra trip? :) I am surprised
the angel manages to shape the embryo until that time without knowing
its gender: as you know, the only difference between
males and females is not in their reproductive organs
(which become _visible_ around 6th week) .. etc ..etc

As you see, the only use of this hadith is documenting that the
Arabs of the time knew roughly the time when the reproductive
organs of the embryo became _visible_. All it takes to know this
is to look at a few embryos - no divine inspiration needed. The
rest of the hadith is mythology. So give credit to whom it is
due, namely to the Arabs of that period for having made that
observation (or communicated to people who did)
and not to Allah. For if it was Allah who inspired
Mohammed for the hadith, he would have done a better job at
making it clear that the gender of the embryo is determined at the
moment of conception, and not at the 42nd day.

>>>Also, about the questions you asked about connecting Saudi's & Moore:
>>>All I can say is that that is a rather lame attempt
>>>to try to discredit a well known scientist.

>>I just asked some question. Do you have the answers or not?

I assume not.

[Muslim]

In article <4tcqhj$f...@fnnews.fnal.gov> ci...@D0SB01.FNAL.GOV writes:
[..some..stuff..deleted..for..brevity..]

>
>Neither do I think that Quran should be expected to say anything more
>about science than what people of that time knew. This is why I am
>skeptical about people claiming otherwise and this made me look for
>the text advertised on the net as making such claims.
>

>Here is a loophole. When you say that "a hadith is genuine as long as it
>is not against the facts", do you mean the 'facts' of 1400 years ago
>or the 'facts' of today? Because if you assume the latter, what you are
>saying in effect is "We will _deny_ any words of the Prophet that do not
>make sense in view of modern science". I do not think this is very honest.
>The infallability of the Prophet is not something one can use to
>assess the genuinity of his hadiths from a scientific perspective.
>

Hadith is invalid if it contradicts QURAN. (Not Science).
Our criterion is the Quran, the absolute truth. We Muslims
judge everything with Quran.

>Like I said, I agree that hadiths may be misquoted and I understand that
>consistency is an important criteria in assessing whether a hadith is
>genuine or not. Again one must be careful. If two _different_
>hadiths seem inconsistent, it does not mean that at least one of
>then has to be not genuine. Every person that has passed through the face
>of this earth has been known to have made inconsistent statements at
>different times. You cannot _assume_ that the Prophet was infallible
>when your _claim_ is that he was divinely inspired. This is circular
>logic.

The hadith were reported and recorded by Muslims, not the Prophet.
What the prophet said, and what was recorded may have some slight
variations in wordings, as you can see that some hadith in
Bukhari are worded differently than some in other hadith
collections.

>the quote clearly states that it would be impossible for a human
>being to predict the sex of the foetus (or the embryo) before the
>42nd day. This part of the quote invalidates his claims about divine
>inspiration since modern science discredits this notion (that the
>gender of embryo is not determined before the 42nd day).

"Determined" by who? It's one thing to predict the sex
before 42nd day, and another thing that the sex was ACTUALLY
_developed__before_ 42nd day by God.

>He makes selective interpretations in that 'bigger argument' too. One
>other thing I remember was, in several hadiths, the 'organs' (skin, flesh,
>bones, eyes, ..etc) are listed in different orders. In one particular
>hadith, he claims that the particular order that the hadith mentions
>is the order these organs become visible in the embryo, making
>absolutely no comment about the other hadiths where the order does
>not support his claims. This selective acceptance of data and this and
>many other schemes of 'patching things' is the reason I am critical of
>his study. I advise you to read his work critically - it is kind
>of fun noticing such fallacies.

AGain, the hadith are worded differently sometimes, in different
collections. However, the order of the words here becomes very
critical, and it is left upto the individual to believe or
not believe. To give the benefit of the doubt to the Prophet's
hadith, and known accuracy of Quran, one can believe the
order that agrees with modern science.

(As a matter of fact, in my Astronomy class, the instructor once
did a very similar thing. He said that there existed
three definitions of "mile" (the distance), and to give the
befenit of the doubt to the scientist (I think it was Aristotle),
they chose the defitnion of the mile that fit well with his
theory & work. I have no problem with that. Give the benefit of
the doubt, knowing that the person in quesiton is a reputable
in his work)

>I have no problem with science and Islam not agreeing on everything.
>Like I stated above, Quran is not a science text. My problem is
>with people claiming otherwise, like Moore, and with people who
>use such claims to promote Islam, like the poster who advertises
>Moore's work over the net.

Moore never claimed that Quran is a science text. Niether
do I claim that Quran is a science test. Quran is not
a scienct text, although it contains some remarkable scientific
statements in it, which I simply cannot ignore, and feel
very honoured to tell the world about them.

[an20...@anon.penet.fi]

ISLAM AND SCIENCE

For although there is not a single aspect of European growth in which
the decisive influence of Islamic culture is not traceable, nowhere is
it so clear and momentous as in the genesis of that power which
constitutes the permanent distinctive force of the Modern world and
the supreme source of its victory -- natural science and the
Scientific spirit. It is highly probable that but for the Arabs modern
European civilization would never have arisen at all; it is absolutely
certain that but for them, it would not have assumed that character
which has enabled it to evolve.

A common misconception which has a great hold on the minds of many,
including a fairly large majority of Muslims themselves, is that Islam
and Science are two mutually incompatible and inconsistent fields of
human activity. This misconception owes its origin in modern times to
the obvious backwardness in the field of scientific progress of the
countries which are known as Muslim countries and the hostile
fanaticism of a section of reactionaries among Muslims themselves. It
is also the direct result of a false concept regarding the purpose of
human existence on this earth, where "salvation" has come to be
synonymous with individual self-immolation, or in other words,
"suicide". My object is to explode the MYTH and to place before you
both internal and external EVIDENCE which will clearly establish the
fact that Islam lays equal, if not greater, emphasis on the conquest
of the forces of nature without, as on the control and discipline of
the forces within man.

This misconception appears to have gained a hold on the Muslim mind
from the time when religion was separated from every other sphere of
material activity of man and relegated to a system of inner experience
having no connection with the outside environment; when life's whole
purpose became introvertial, groping for a path leading unto a
"Hereafter" alone or the lure of the "otherworldliness". This was
exactly what static religions and philosophies had tried to do before
the advent of Islam in their passage through time, perverting
realities into hypocritical systems of myths and mysticism.

To be able to understand this state of mental stultification, we have
to go back and study the state of the world before Islam altered its
complexion. At the sixth century C.E., we find ourselves face to face
with a world divided into two mutually exclusive and internally
incompatible compartments. The two compartments were the world of
religion and the world of matter. Religion as a means of individual
salvation had come to teach that the world of matter was completely
illusory and stood as a curtain and a barrier between man and his
progress towards individual salvation. It has no reality and, for a
man to be religious, it was incumbent upon him to shun everything
material. The life of a hermit was the highest from of life and a
guaranteed passport to heaven. Even the world of thought and intellect
was enmeshed by the same snare. Socrates concentrated his intellectual
attention on the study of man in the abstract, that is, man in
relation to his internal thoughts or concepts born out of an
involution within himself. Plato -- his true disciple -- despised all
sense of perception and considered it the greatest sin. It is, in
fact, Plato who has made a fine art of this concept of MAYA or
Illusion which his disciples throughout the ages have managed to weave
into an ephemeral web, within which they have closeted
themselves. Plato can, with full justification, be called the father
of mysticism. This school continued to drag down humanity by keeping
them enmeshed within the cobwebs woven by their otherwise empty but in
this particular respect rather fecund, brains.

It was at this stage of world history that the sixth century of the
Christian Era witnessed the shining light of Islam emblazon this
otherwise dark world. Islam as revealed in the Holy Qur'an, smashed
the ideas which had enchained humanity for several centuries in the
contradictions woven by the ideas of "Illusion". It was the Holy
Qur'an which drove home the truth FOR THE FIRST TIME in the history of
organized human existence and intellect that the force of nature
"without" and the psyche "within" were two aspects of the same reality
and conclusive and constructive truths can only come before our eyes
by the analytical examination, interplay and integration of both these
aspects of existence. Says the Holy Qur'an:

"We shall show them our signs in the phenomenal and the spiritual
worlds until it will be manifested unto them that this is the
constructive truth"(41:53).

There must be a complete interweaving of these two aspects before
reality can be conceived and the conception can produce results. The
inner world of psychology must be brought to play upon and integrate
with the outer world of natural forces before mankind can develop and
evolve to the heights or the extents which will transcend the limits
of the concrete. So far as the inner or psychic world is concerned,
the Holy Qur'an tells us that no nation can change its outer world
until there is a change in their psychological world (8:53 and 13:11)
and at the same time, regarding the outer world, the Holy Qur'an warns
us that the nation which runs away from the outer world or the world
of nature does nothing else but embrace death (7:185-186).

These teachings of the Holy Qur'an which were given to this world
thirteen centuries and a half ago, when viewed in the light of the
suicidal philosophy which enmeshed the world then, clearly show us
that the beacon of Light was lit by the Holy Qur'an, which showed the
path to this otherwise groping world. The subsequent history of
scientific development has merely helped in confirming these truths
and bringing them out with emphatic intensity.

The story of the evolution and emergence of man as a self-conscious
being, capable not only of perceptions but also endowed with the
faculties of analysing and integrating them into complex concepts, is
given by the Holy Qur'an introducing him as the being who learnt to
distinguish these concepts by giving names capable of reflecting their
qualities. This is how the Holy Qur'an narrates the legend, the so
called legend, of the fall of Adam.

"When thy Lord said to the angels, 'Verily I am about to place on
earth a successor (to the previous species, in power and interest)'
they said 'Wilt Thou place there one who will create dis-equilibrium
and shed blood while we remain constantly engaged in Thine
appreciation and glorification?'" (2:30).

God said: "Verily I know what ye know not. And He endowed Adam with
faculty of naming things" (2:31).

Incidentally, the necessity for endowing man with the faculty of
giving names to things arises out of the simple fact that no concept
can exist unless it can be expressed in terms of certain words, which
words in themselves stand for certain concepts. The two are
inseparable and must exist together. Out of simple words which stand
for simple concepts, more complex and comprehensive concepts take
shape, which in turn are dependent upon the faculty to give them names
for the purpose of being conveyed from one individual to another or
even for the purpose of retention in the memory. Dr. Burke in his
famous book, THE COSMIC CONSCIOUSNESS, says:

"The growth of the human intellect is the growth of the concepts,
i.e. the multiplication of the more simple and at the same time the
building up of these into others more and more complex; for every
concept there is a word and for every word there is a concept; neither
can exist apart from the other. No word can come into being except as
the expression of a concept, neither can a new concept be formed
without the formation (at the same time) of the new word which is its
expression."

Our scientists today have reached a stage where they have by their
constant empirical methods been forced to admit and recognise the
truths which were stated by the Holy Qur'an 13,600 years ago. The
fundamental fact that no conceptual knowledge can exist without the
ability to name these concepts was states with such clarity and
precision so many centuries ago.

In contradiction to the false concept of "Illusion" or Maya advocated
by the priests and philosophers of yore, the Holy Qur'an for the first
time emphatically announced the fact that this creation had not been
brought into existence merely in the spirit of creative sport on the
part of the Creator:

"We have not created the heights and the surfaces and whatever is
between the twain, for mere sport: We have not created them but for a
positive (creative) purpose; but the greater part of mankind
understands it not." (44:38-39).

The emphasis is laid on the fact that this creation or the natural
phenomena around us, has not been created in vain, nor is it
unreal. It has a very serious purpose in view and man's sojourn on the
earth is for a creative and positive purpose that can only be served
when there is an interweaving and integration between the psychic, or
inner, being and the observable aspect of Reality, which we call the
Phenomenal Universe. The Holy Qur'an is full of passages emphasizing
and illustrating these truths. I quote a few of the verses:

"Verily in the creation of the heights and of the surfaces and in the
succession of the night and the day are signs for men of understanding
who, standing, sitting and reclining, remind themselves of their
Creator and reflect on the creation of the heights and the surfaces
and say: 'O our Sustainer, Thou hast not created this in vain.' "
(3:190-191).

"Assuredly in the creation of the heights and of the surfaces, in the
alteration of night and day and in the ships which pass through the
seas with what is useful to man; and in the rain which God sendeth
down from above, giving life to the earth after its death and
scattering over it all kinds of cattle; and in the change of winds and
in the clouds that are made to do service between the heights and
surfaces are signs for those who understand" (2:164).

"And it is He Who hath made the stars for you that ye may be guided
thereby in the darkness of the land and of the sea. So clear have we
made Our signs to men of knowledge.

And it is He Who hath created you of one breath and hath provided an
abode and a place for your passage. Clear have We made Our signs to
men of insight. And it is He Who sendeth down rain from above; and We
bring forth by it the produce of all the plants and from them bring We
forth green foliage out of which We produce grain heaped up; of the
date palm and its sheaths some clusters of dates hanging low and near;
and then there are gardens of grapes and olives, and pomegranates,
each similar in kind yet differing in variety" (6:97-99).

"Hast thou not seen how thy Sustainer spreads out the shade? Had He
pleased, He would have made it stationary. But We made the sun to be
its torch; thereby contracting and drawing in the shade" (25:45-46).

"Can they not look up to the clouds how they are gathered and formed;
and the heights how they are upraised; and to the mountains how they
are routed and to the earth how it is outspread?" (88:17-20).

For the fulfillment of the purpose for which this universe has been
created, it is nor enough merely to give knowledge or the faculty of
naming it, but it is also necessary that man should be endowed with
the power of obtaining control and utilizing the forces of nature that
exist between the heights and surfaces. The Qur'an goes on to say:

"See ye not how God hath subjected to your control all that is above
and all that is below, and hath been bounteous to you in His favours
both in relation to the manifest and the potential." (31:20).

"And He hath subjected to you the night and day. The sun and the moon
and the stars, too, are subjected to you by His behest. Verily in this
are signs for those who understand" (16:20).

Even a superficial reading of the above quotations would leave no
doubt in the mind as to what the Holy Qur'an means by "men of
understanding and knowledge". Those who endeavour to bring under
subjection and control and gain a mastery over the forces of nature,
integrating them with the forces within and then developing the
product thereof and utilizing the same in accordance with the
Fundamental Laws which must govern humanity are, in the eyes of the
Qur'an, "the men of understanding and knowledge" or the 'ULEMAS. There
is no such thing as theology in the Qur'an and by men of understanding
it does not mean those who are commonly called theologians. The Qur'an
draws pointed attention to the material universe and says:

"Hast thou not seen that God causeth water to fall from above and
reproduces therewith fruits of diverse hues? And among the hills are
streaks, white and red, of diverse hues; and others raven black. And
men and beasts and cattle are in like manner of diverse hue?"
(35:27-28).

And after the understanding and appreciation of the laws governing the
phenomena of nature, the Qur'an has use the word 'ULEMAS or the
learned, as signifying those who as a result of their probing deep
into knowledge of nature obtain a comprehension of His greatness
(35:28).

Those who move about on this earth dead and unconscious of the
phenomena of nature around and with no desire to understand their
environment, the Holy Qur'an terms as "those who are possessed with
physical eyes but devoid of inner eyes" (22:46). And those who are
thus devoid of insight and comprehension here are termed as the
"blind". They shall be "blind" here as well as "blind" in the
"Hereafter" (17:72).

From what I have stated above and the quotations from the Holy Qur'an,
it will be more than evident that the Qur'an does not confine
salvation to a state of mere physical or mysterious being, introverted
and shrinking with its own shell. On the other hand the Qur'an lays
the greatest emphasis on the integration and development of man's
inner being as well as his conquest of the forces of nature without;
and this endeavour in this existence provides the roots for the plant
which is to flower both "here" and the world "Hereafter"; it is a
continuous evolutionary process (bounded in time and space here but
free of these shackles in the "Hereafter") and unless the roots are
nurtured here and provided with necessary nourishment, the flowering
and fruition both here and in the "Hereafter" cannot come into being.

A system of life which lays so much emphasis on the study and conquest
of the forces of nature around, must, if followed in its true spirit,
preclude men who would in their lives give a positive proof of this
method of the development and evolution of the human mind. The history
of Muslim peoples is replete with such instances which I shall
endeavour to recount presently.

Unfortunately most of the historians and orientalists on whom we
depend today for giving us an account of the development of scientific
progress ushered in by the Muslims, are Western Christian writers
whose intense and inveterate prejudices against anything Muslim
derives from the crushing defeats which the Crusaders suffered at the
hands of the Saracens. History presents only one single period of time
when the different otherwise mutually warring nations of Europe came
together and coalesced on a single issue, and that was the safety of
Christendom against the Muslim heretics contemptuously referred to as
the "Heathen Dog". It nurtured only one single emotion -- namely
intense hatred of anything Muslim, and this emotion dominated the
European mind even after the Renaissance in Europe, in spite of the
fact that the defeat of the Crusaders had become an event of the dim
past of history. This feeling remained dominant till the beginning of
the Industrial revolution in Europe, which ushered in the era of
Colonial Imperialism.

Briffault in his book, THE MAKING OF HUMANITY, says:

"The debt of Europe to the 'Heathen Dog' could of course, find no
place in the scheme of Christian history, and the garbled
falsification has imposed itself on all subsequent conceptions. Until
the last century, there did not even exist anything approaching
accurate knowledge of Saracen history and culture. Even today the
history of the re-birth of Europe from barbarism is constantly being
written without any REFERENCE whatsoever to the influence of Arab
civilization -- the history of the Prince of Denmark without Hamlet."

It is only recently that the European mind has slowly recovered from
its state of perverse hatred of the Muslim and shaken off its
inferiority complex after having wreaked its vengeance against the
Muslim invader who brought in light and knowledge to the darkness that
was Europe.

Having settled accounts with the invader, in the coin of the
Inquisition and burning at the stake, and his subsequent subjugation
under the imperialistic heel, even though he had ushered in the era of
their emancipation, the European Christian mind slowly veered round to
the acknowledgment of the debt that it owed to Islam. This may be
summed up in the words of Dorsey:

"It is easier for us to say, 'No Copernicus' -- or to say, 'No Arab
astronomy, no Copernicus' -- or to say, 'No Judaism, no Christianity'
than to say, 'No Arabs, no modern civilization.'"

This fact is further acknowledged by Sir Oliver Lodge in his book,
PIONEERS OF SCIENCE where he admits that it was the Arabs who formed
the only effective link between ancient and modern science -- the Dark
Ages in Europe form a gap in the history of science and for a period
of thousand years in between there was no scientist or philosopher
except among the Arabs.

How garbled and unreliable were the accounts of the annals of Islam
published by the orientalists of Europe before the beginning of the
nineteenth century may be judged from Professor Bevan's remarks in his
CAMBRIDGE MEDIAEVAL HISTORY. Professor Bevan says:

"Those accounts of Mohammed and Islam which were published in Europe
before the beginning of the nineteenth century are now to be regarded
as literary curiosities."

* THE ARABS, NOT ROGER BACON, INTRODUCED THE EXPERIMENTAL METHOD *

Briffault, who, of the modern European writers is a shining example of
a balanced man, risen far above the narrow and parochial prejudices of
European Christianity against Islam, has with candid frankness
admitted the fact that the advent of Islam was the turning point in
the making of humanity, when it emerged from the ancient to the modern
sphere of its evolution. Briffault deserves our gratitude for honesty
of appreciation and candour of expression and I must be forgiven for
quoting him at length:

"It was under the influence of the Arabs and the Moorish revival of
culture and not in the fifteenth century that a real renaissance took
place. Spain, not Italy, was the cradle of the re-birth of
Europe. After steadily sinking lower and lower into barbarism it had
reached the darkest depths of ignorance and degradation when the
cities of the Saracenic world, Baghdad, Cairo, Cordova, and Toledo,
were growing centers of civilisation and intellectual activity. It was
there the new life arose which was to grow into a new phase of human
evolution. From the time when the influence of their culture made
itself felt, BEGAN the stirring of a new life.

It was under their successors at the Oxford School (that is,
successors to the Muslims in Spain) that Roger Bacon learned Arabic
and Arabic science. Neither Roger Bacon nor his latter namesake has
any title to be credited with having introduced the experimental
method. Roger Bacon was no more than one of the apostles of Muslim
science and method to Christian Europe: and he never wearied of
declaring that Arabic science was for this contemporaries the only way
to true knowledge. Discussions as to who was the originator of the
experimental method ... are part of the colossal misrepresentation of
the origins of European civilisation. The experimental method of the
Arabs was by Bacon's time widespread and eagerly cultivated throughout
Europe.

Science is the most momentous contribution of the modern world; but its
fruits were slow in ripening. Not until long after Moorish culture had
sunk back into darkness did the giant which it had given birth to rise
in his might. It was not science only which brought Europe back to
life. Other and manifold influences from the civilization of Islam
communicated its first glow to European life.

For although there is not a single aspect of European growth in which
the decisive influence of Islamic culture is not traceable, nowhere is
it so clear and momentous as in the genesis of that power which
constitutes the permanent distinctive force of the modern world, and
the supreme source of its victory -- natural science and the
scientific spirit.

The debt of our science to that of the Arab does not consist in
starting discoveries of revolutionary theories; science owes a great
deal more to Arab culture, it owes its existence. The astronomy and
mathematics of the Greeks were a foreign importation never thoroughly
acclimatized in Greek culture. The Greeks systamized, generalized and
theorized, BUT THE PATIENT WAYS OF INVESTIGATION, THE ACCUMULATION OF
POSITIVE KNOWLEDGE, THE MINUTE METHODS OF SCIENCE, DETAILED AND
PROLONGED OBSERVATION AND EXPERIMENTAL INQUIRY WERE ALTOGETHER ALIEN
TO THE GREEK TEMPERAMENT. ONLY IN HELLENISTIC ALEXANDRIA WAS ANY
APPROACH TO SCIENTIFIC WORK CONDUCTED IN THE ANCIENT CLASSICAL
WORLD. What we call science arose in Europe as a result of a new
spirit of inquiry, or new methods of investigation, of the methods of
experiment, observation, measurement, of the development of
mathematics in a form unknown to the Greeks. That spirit and these
methods were introduced into the European world _BY_ the Arabs.

It is highly probable that but for the Arabs, modern European
civilization would never have arisen at all; it is absolutely certain
that but for them, it would not have assumed that character which has
enabled it to transcend all previous phases of evolution."

These frank and honest admissions from quarters which have imbibed the
spirit of scientific enquiry and search for truth from the original
Arab sources, go to confirm the basic soundness of those peoples and
their culture. Their culture was the direct result of the teachings
and the spirit of the Qur'an, which those early Arabs understood and
followed, IN THE BARE, BALD THEISM OF ISLAM, WITH ITS NEGATION OF
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY, OF MYTH, OF TRADITION, ALMOST DESTITUTE OF
RITUAL, AND ABOVE ALL, ENTIRELY OF PRIESTHOOD.

It would not be out of place here to make a brief mention of the
pioneers of science who owed their inspiration TO the Qur'an.

In the field of geography and commerce, the Caliph al-Mamun had
ordered the first measurement of a geographical degree in the Syrian
desert. Muhammad bin Musa was in charge of this survey party. This was
the beginning of the longitudinal and latitudinal survey of the globe
and the seventy scholars who were engaged on this study ultimately
produced the first map of the globe (813-833 C.E.). This activity of
the Arabs in the beginning of the ninth century was to be the
forerunner of Columbus's hazard across the seas five centuries later,
in the firm belief that the earth was a globe and not a flat saucer as
the Greeks had thought it to be. Thus in search for the Indian
continent, Columbus, who had been taught this knowledge of geography
by an Arab, found the American continent, which is today the most
advanced region of Western civilization. When Vasco da Gama after his
circumnavigation of the African continent in 1498 C.E. had reached
Malindi on the East Coast of Africa, it was an Arab pilot (Ahmad Ibn
Majid) who showed him the way to India. According to Portugese sources
this pilot was in possession of a very good sea map and of other
maritime instruments, hitherto unknown to European seafarers. This
Arab pilot is also known as the writer of a SAILING MANUAL for the
Indian Ocean, the Red Sea, the Persian Gulf, the South China Sea and
the East Indian Archipelago.

Al-Mas'udi (950 C.E.) was the Arab globetrotter who collected on his
travels a large amount of geographical and ethnographical
knowledge. He wrote several books, two of which are preserved in the
British Museum.

It was the Arab who in the first instance, translated all the then
extant knowledge in this field from the Greek sources and brought it
within the fold of THEIR own living language. This knowledge, but for
these translations, would have been lost to the world. Having
collected this knowledge, the Arabs started their own research and by
the EMPIRICAL METHOD they were able either to confirm or refute the
purely theoretical concepts which the Greek civilization had
laboriously produced. Al-Mamun created in Baghdad a regular school for
translation. One of the translators here was Hunian Ibn Ishaq (809-877
C.E.), a particularly gifted philosopher and a physician of wide
erudition. He translated practically the whole immense CORPUS of
Galenic writings. This amounted to a hundred Syriac and thirty-nine
Arabic versions of Galen's medical and philosophical books. He also
translated HIPPOCRATES' APHORISMS, the great synopsis of Oribasius and
the seven books of Paul of Aegina. Among the Arabic translations
ascribed to Hunian are works of other Greek physicians and veterinary
writers together with several Aristotelian physical works. Hunian's
own compositions are nearly as numerous as his translations. They
include many summaries and commentaries on Galen's work and skillful
abstracts and recapitulation in the form of textbooks for
students. His TEN TREATISES ON THE EYE is the earliest systematic text
book of opthalmology known.

* SOME MUSLIM SCHOLARS OF REPUTE *

We turn now from the translations to the original works of the
period. In physics, al-Kindi is the most frequently named scholar. No
less than 265 works are ascribed to this first Arab physicist and
scientist. Of these at least fifteen are on specific weights, on
tides, optics and notably on the reflection of light, and eight are on
music and sound. His OPTICS, preserved in a Latin translation,
influenced Roger Bacon and other Western men of science.

Another famous scientist and author of this period is al-Razi (865-925
C.E.). He is considered to be the greatest physician of the Islamic
world and at least one of the great physicians of all time. His
greatest medical work, and perhaps the most extensive ever written by
a medical man, is his AL-HAWI (The Comprehensive), which includes
Greek, Syriac and early Arabic medical knowledge in its entirety.

Jabir is world-famed as the father of Arabic alchemy. About 100
alchemic works ascribed to Jabir are in existence. From the practical
side Jabir described improved methods of evaporation, distillation,
sublimation, melting and crystallization.

Then comes Abu 'Ali al-Husain Ibn Sina, known universally to the West
as Avicenna (980-1037 C.E.). His gigantic CANON OF MEDICINE (Al-Qanun)
is the culmination and masterpiece of Arabic systemization: for, this
medical encyclopaedia deals with general medicine, simple drugs,
diseases affecting all parts of the human body, special pathology and
pharmacopaeia. The book was translated into Latin in the twelfth
century and the demand for it may be gleaned from the fact that in the
last thirty years of the fifteenth century it was issued sixteen times
and re-issued more than twenty times during the sixteenth
century. These figures do not include editions of portions of the
works. Apart from this, we owe to Avicenna to treatises on the
formation of mountains, stones and minerals. It is important for the
history of geology as discussing the influence of earthquakes, wind
temperature, sedimentation, desiccation and other causes of
solidification.

The Brethren of Purity (IKHWAN AL-SAFA), a secret society founded
in Mesopotamia in the tenth century, wrote an encyclopaedia composed
of fifty-two treatises, seventeen of which deal with natural
science. We find here discussions on the formation of minerals, on
earthquakes, tides, meteorological phenomena and the elements, all
brought into relation with the celestial spheres and bodies.

Meteorological studies were much in favour with the Muslims of the
later centuries, particularly those on balances. AL-Jazri finished in
1206 C.E. in Mesopotamia a great book on mechanics and clocks. "On the
side of mathematics, it must," in the words of the late Sir Mohammad
Iqbal, from his RECONSTRUCTION OF RELIGIOUS THOUGHTS IN ISLAM Oxford,
1932, "be remembered that since the day of Ptolemy (87-165 C.E.) till
the time of Nasir Tusi (1207-1274 C.E.) nobody gave serious thought to
the difficulties of demonstrating the certitude of Euclid's parallel
postulate on the basis of perceptual space. It was Tusi who first
disturbed the calm which had prevailed in the world of mathematics for
a thousand years."

Al-Biruni in his APPROACH TO THE MODERN MATHEMATICAL IDEA OF FUNCTION
saw, from a purely scientific point of view, the insufficiency of a
static view of the universe. Again, to quote Iqbal, "the
transformation of the Greek concept of 'Number' from pure magnitude to
pure relation really began with Khawarizmi's movement from arithmetic
to algebra. Al-Biruni took a definite step forward towards what
Spengier describes as chronological number which signifies the mind's
passage from being to becoming."

Side by side, with the progress of mathematical thought in Islam, we
find the idea of organic evolution gradually shaping itself. It was
Jahiz who was the first to note the changes in bird life caused by
migration. Later Ibn Miskawiah gave it the shape of a more definite
theory, adopted in his famous work, Al-Fauz Al-Ashgar. Ibn Miskawaih's
idea of life as an evolutionary movement and al-Biruni's approach to
the conception constituted the intellectual inheritence of Ibn
Khaldun, of the the greatest historians of the world and undoubtedly
the FOUNDER OF THE CONCEPTION OF NATURE AS A PRECESS OF BECOMING,
constituted the inheritence of Ibn Khaldun, one of the greatest
historians of all time, and the undoubtedly the FOUNDER OF THE
CONCEPTION OF HISTORY AS A SCIENCE -- A SCIENCE OF DEMONSTRATIVE CAUSE
AND EFFECT. This tendency to treat history as a science is a direct
emanation from the Qur'an itself, which lays the greatest emphasis on
a constant reminder of the historical Cause and Effect as a method of
assessing the importance and the trend of the developments of human
problems at any given period of time.

* THE EARLY MUSLIMS DID NOT INDULGE IN SCIENTIFIC PURSUITS MERELY
AS A MENTAL LUXURY *

The historical evidence which I have taken the liberty of recounting
somewhat at length goes clearly to show that it was not only in a
spirit of pure mental gymnastics that Islam laid such great emphasis
on the scientific master over the forces of nature but that early
Muslim history gives positive proof of the development of the Muslim
mind in the direction which the Qur'an had so emphatically impressed
upon it. These Muslim scientists did not indulge in scientific
pursuits purely as a mental luxury. Their intentions and objectives
were very clear and those were to fulfill the purpose of this existence
as enunciated by the Qur'an itself, namely, to obtain a mastery over
nature "without" by an integration and development of the forces
"within," man, and thereby to obtain that power which, when utilized
in the creative and positive direction would achieve for man his
transcendence over matter and thereby fit him for the next stage of
his evolutionary life, which obviously lies in the regions of cosmic
consciousness. The practical laboratory, which this existence
provides, is the crucible for humanity wherein man's final sublimation
is to take place. It is only after the achievement of that sublimation
that he can equip himself for the Existence Hereafter, where the
bounds of time and space as well as the constant phases of change will
have been mastered and controlled, this achieving an eternal and
conscience existence for Self, that is man, and not an obliteration or
negation of his entity which mysticism considers to be the goal of
life.

* HOW MUSLIMS CAN REGAIN THEIR LOST LEADERSHIP *

The rich heritage which Islam provided for this world appears to have
been divided into two parts. The major part, namely purely scientific
development, appears to have been taken up with both hands by the
West. The East appears to have got lost in the maze of its own mental
acrobatics. It is about time that an integration of both these aspects
of existence within, and the forces of nature without, bound and knit
together by all-pervading "Fundamental Values" was brought into
existence. The West today has advanced into the realms of nuclear
physics in their scientific pursuits. The Atom and the Hydrogen Bomb
along with an X-Bomb now, have begun to terrify humanity. Most of
scientific development is proceeding in a negative direction. There
are vast fields of research and activity in the positive and creative
direction also, which have still to be studied and mastered by the
inter-play of thought and empirical methods. For those who care to
study the Qur'an there are plenty of positive clues which will guide
them in the right direction. Mere mental gymnastics will not do; we
have to get down to acquiring a complete mastery for the utilization
and harnessing of the limitless energy which a Beneficient Providence
has stored for us in boundless Space. Positive and well directed
scientific research with constant empirical and practical checking up
and the technical "know-how" are the fields of activity for our young
minds to delve deep into, keeping constantly in mind the fact that
where the West has gone wrong is that it has ignored the fundamental
values which must govern the utilization of the benefits to be derived
from the mastery over the palpable universe. If we go forward with a
firm faith and behalf in the unity of Godhead and the consequent unity
of humanity and thereafter utilize our achievements for the benefit of
mankind as a whole, we have before us an immense field for
achievement. We shall then regain our lost leadership of mankind and
make our contribution in the fulfillment of the purpose of this
existence -- in its march and evolution forwards and upwards with ILA
RABBIKA MUNTAHAHA (79:44) (i.e., Towards the Sustainer lies its Goal),
as the limit for our achievements.

.......................................................................
--****ATTENTION****--****ATTENTION****--****ATTENTION****--***ATTENTION***
Your e-mail reply to this message WILL be *automatically* ANONYMIZED.
Please, report inappropriate use to ab...@anon.penet.fi
For information (incl. non-anon reply) write to he...@anon.penet.fi
If you have any problems, address them to ad...@anon.penet.fi

[ci...@d0sb01.fnal.gov]

In article <fawad.8...@news.cern.ch>, fa...@surya11.cern.ch (Sayed Fawad Hassan) writes:

>First a disclaimer: I am neither an expert in biology nor an authority
>in religion, so what I say may not be correct/accurate.

Neither am I. Part of the reason that I posted the hadith in question
was that it was possible for me to see the fallacies in reasoning
with Moore's interpretation of it with my level of knowledge in
biology (which admittedly is little). I am no authority in religion
either. The only credential that I have I am confident with is
my critical reasoning, which I acquired in another discipline of
science.

>If I am not wrong, Moore does not entirely base his arguments on just
>one quote. Thus, to judge his work and conclusions based only on this
>one quote, may not be very objective (see below). Moreover, note that
>in such matters nobody can furnish a really concrete proof (as
>compared to the accuracy of proofs, say, in Physics). Thus one's
>conclusions are also affected by the broader picture and one's general
>understanding.

As I said in my original post, this is but just one of the many verses
from Quran and hadith quotes that Moore uses in his work. You are right
in stating that there is much more to his work than the single hadith
that I posted here. However (and I do not know how familiar you are
with scientific scrutiny), neither is this the only place I feel
compelled to doubt his academic honesty, nor the fact that he makes
reasonable explanations in other places saves him my doubts.

>Moreover, I do not think the claim is that Quran gives an "accurate
>description of embryology" (to quote you). Quran is not supposed to be
>a book on embryology or any other science.

Neither do I think that Quran should be expected to say anything more
about science than what people of that time knew. This is why I am
skeptical about people claiming otherwise and this made me look for
the text advertised on the net as making such claims.

>The claim is more modest:
>(1)that the references which Quran makes to some aspects of embryology,
>do not contradict our present understanding of the subject.

Some is the operative word. I agree with this.

>(2)Furthermore, some of these references seem too sophisticated to be
>considered part of the human knowledge at around 1400 years ago.

Was Democritus too sophisticated to claim that matter consisted of atoms?
Was he divinely inspired?

People made all sorts of lucky guesses in the past, among a huge number
of unlucky ones. Besides, I guess, in this case we can modify the saying
to "Truth is in the eye of the beholder", ie if you wish, you can
interpret anything the way you like - that does not mean that it was
said with those intentions. Historians know better than judging
yesterday's actions with today's ideologies. Religious people should
know better than interpreting yesterday's religions with today's
science. Of course I realize religions would lose a lot of their
charm if people started doing this.

>Moore
>argues in favour of these claims and bases his conclusions on them. What
>is really crucial to the issue of Islam and Science, is part (1) of the
>claim. Your disagreement with Moore seems to be related to part (2) of
>the claim.

Your observation is accurate.

>>1. Why use hadiths to support claims about Quran?

>From reading parts of Moore's work which were posted on the net, I got
>the impression that Moore's line of argument was not exactly as stated
>above. By comparing some verses from the Quran as well as some Ahadith
>with the pesent day knowledge, he concludes that the facts contained in
>these sources could not have come from Prophet Mohammad as a human
>being. Moore thus concludes that he must have received some revelation
>(and thus his claim to prophethood was not false). Therefore, from what
>I understand, he is not directly using Hadith to support Quran, rather, he
>is using both Quran and Hadith to argue that Prophet Mohammad must have
>recieved some revelation. You may not agree with his conclusions, but I
>think this line of argument is logical.

I kind of agree with this. What I tried to say in the rest of my
paragraph (below) is close to your idea.

>> I personally think
>> this is somewhat of a nitpicky argument since if he had managed to
>> soundly demonstrate that both Quran and hadiths agreed with modern
>> science, I would not care much if he used "Quran" in places where
>> "Islam" would be more appropriate (see below).

>I do not properly understand the argument here, so I won't comment.

See my comment above.

>>2. Ok, I can accept that hadiths form the second most important source
>> of information in Islam. In this way of thinking, they are an integral
>> part of the religion and cannot be left out in discussion of Quran.
>> Fine. But how can the above hadith be considered accurate in view of
>> modern science? It surely is not as I read it. I challenge anybody to
>> claim otherwise.

>You are right about the importance of Hadith, but from what I understand,
>the Prophet had strictly warned people against blindly accepting any
>narration attributed to him. So a Hadith is acceptable if it does not
>contradict the Quran and if it is not against facts.

Here is a loophole. When you say that "a hadith is genuine as long as it
is not against the facts", do you mean the 'facts' of 1400 years ago
or the 'facts' of today? Because if you assume the latter, what you are
saying in effect is "We will _deny_ any words of the Prophet that do not
make sense in view of modern science". I do not think this is very honest.
The infallability of the Prophet is not something one can use to
assess the genuinity of his hadiths from a scientific perspective.

>In fact there are
>narrations which are forged. It is also known that in many cases the same
>narration has been reported by different people with different wordings.
>This could very well be the case with the Hadith under discussion where a
>slight unintentional modification on the narators part could change the
>meaning. You may not agree with this argument, but as I said, in such
>cases it is difficult to convince (it works both ways).

Like I said, I agree that hadiths may be misquoted and I understand that
consistency is an important criteria in assessing whether a hadith is
genuine or not. Again one must be careful. If two _different_
hadiths seem inconsistent, it does not mean that at least one of
then has to be not genuine. Every person that has passed through the face
of this earth has been known to have made inconsistent statements at
different times. You cannot _assume_ that the Prophet was infallible
when your _claim_ is that he was divinely inspired. This is circular
logic.

>>3. Further, I can accept that the hadith may not be genuine.

>> But, if there was doubt that this hadith was not genuine,
>> he should have not used it to support his claims, period.

>I do not know much about embryology, but even if I fully accept your
>statements, I can see that Moore's quote is not too off, considering
>the fact that this statement was made around 1400 years ago.

I agree. I think it is commendable that people 1400 years ago knew
roughly the time when sex organs became visible (in an embryo). But, the
claim by Moore that this knowledge is divinely inspired is ridiculous since

the quote clearly states that it would be impossible for a human
being to predict the sex of the foetus (or the embryo) before the
42nd day. This part of the quote invalidates his claims about divine
inspiration since modern science discredits this notion (that the
gender of embryo is not determined before the 42nd day).

>If this
>hadith is not fully genuine, it is also not entirely incorrect. Moreover,
>as I stated, he has used this Hadith in conjunction with other evidence,
>so as such it is part of a bigger argument.

He makes selective interpretations in that 'bigger argument' too. One
other thing I remember was, in several hadiths, the 'organs' (skin, flesh,
bones, eyes, ..etc) are listed in different orders. In one particular
hadith, he claims that the particular order that the hadith mentions
is the order these organs become visible in the embryo, making
absolutely no comment about the other hadiths where the order does
not support his claims. This selective acceptance of data and this and
many other schemes of 'patching things' is the reason I am critical of
his study. I advise you to read his work critically - it is kind
of fun noticing such fallacies.

>By the way, it is not very clear whether the argument is now directed
>against Moore or it is still the compatibility between science and Islam
>which is being discussed (the two are not the same).

I have no problem with science and Islam not agreeing on everything.
Like I stated above, Quran is not a science text. My problem is
with people claiming otherwise, like Moore, and with people who
use such claims to promote Islam, like the poster who advertises
Moore's work over the net.

>>Whichever way you look at it, there is something fishy in this

>>'scientific' study. My _guess_ is, Moore gave the Saudis something
>>to chew on while he used the resources supplied by them to do some
>>'real' research.

>Maybe he did that, maybe he didn't. Is there any evidence for this or
>is it merely a speculation inspired by disagreement with his views?

Like I said, the only thing that I know is that he was in Saudi
Arabia at the time, the rest is stating my doubts and asking some
questions (speculation based on some experience in scientific
studies and inspired by obvious fallacies I would not expect any
scientist with some basic training to commit). I state the questions
that I am looking answers for in the next paragraph.

[macan]

an20...@anon.penet.fi wrote:
>
> ISLAM AND SCIENCE
> .........
>
> A common misconception ....... Islam

> and Science are two mutually incompatible and inconsistent fields of
> human activity.

It was the same for Europians till Renaisance.

>
> This misconception appears to have gained a hold on the Muslim ..

There is no relegion which grants freedom of thinking to human mind.

>
> To be able to understand this state of mental stultification....

This is similiar to mental state of a gambler. As we loose more due to
otherworldliness we become evenmore otherwordly, with the hope of, at
least, securing some befits after death.

> ....

Today, human kind knows so much about the univers; its physical aspects,
its nature, its size relative to ours, and that stars are not "noors",
and that we can seek settlements in other parts of space which are no
similiar to our little planet, etc. It is almost imposible for an awake
mind to belive that Jesus was the son (or himself) of the creator of
this infinitely huge system; or that Muhammed " ride through the seven
skies" on the back of a camel to pay a visit to the Creator, or that
Moses talk to The Creator on top of an hill, or that Sun is the creator,
or that...

There seems to be one thing for sure; our REACHABLE univers is created
by some extra universal MAKER. All its mysteries would be solved is
seconds if we would have a clue for its reason of being. Relegion of
Science is after this question.

Dervish.

[macan]

Hallaj wrote:
>
> ad...@netcom.com (Muslim) wrote:
>
> >The Source of the Constituents of Animal Milk
> >----------------------------------------------
>
> The article is deleted...
>
> Dear Mr. Muslim and all who countribute in this thread!
>
> This thread has been on in several weeks now and as I observe none of
> users of soc.culture.iranian has taken part in this discussion. Most
> of us in Soc.Culture.Iranian try to take part in the newsgroup
> concerning the subject it has stablished for. Soc.Culture Islam is
> probably the most proper newsgroup for subjects related to Islam. Many
> of my Iranian friends check this newsgroup for Islamic discussion. We
> would be gratful if you respectful people delete soc.culture.iranian
> from the address box when you reply to this and other similar threads.
>
> Sallam and peace
>
> Hallaj

You do not have to read them. And you shall stop assuming to be the
reperesentative of all living Iranians.

Selam (not sallam).

Dervish.

[ci...@d0sb01.fnal.gov]

In article <31FA6C...@pop-box.mcgill.ca>, macan <ma...@pop-box.mcgill.ca> writes:

[...]

>There seems to be one thing for sure; our REACHABLE univers is created
>by some extra universal MAKER.

A reference to "Dune"? :)

[Muslim]

In article <4tc891$b...@canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca> jja...@suntek.mb.ca writes:
[..stuff..deleted..]

>created the world in 7 or 8 days, is this a major issue to create

world (earth) was created in 2 periods, whereas the entire
universe was created in 6 periods.

Say: "Do you deny that God, Who created the earth in
TWO days (periods) ? He indeed is the Lord of all creation.
He set mountains over the earth (after its creation) and
bestowed blessings on it [1], and provided in it means
of sustenance adequately according to the needs and
demands of all those who ask [2]. This was done

in FOUR days (periods) [3]. Then He turned to the
heaven, which was only smoke at that time [4].
He said to the heaven and the earth: "Come ye together,
willingly or unwillingly." They both said, "We do
come in submission [5]. Then in TWO days He made
the seven heavens, and in each heaven He ordained its law,
and We adorned the lower heaven with lights and made it
fully secure. Such is the design of the One,
Who is the All-Mighty, the All-Knowing.
Quran 41:9 - 41:12

[1] "Blessings of the earth" imply those things that fulfill
the needs and requirements of all creatures.

[2] Allah placed within the earth the full provisions of food
precisely and exactly in accordance with the demands and
needs of every kind of creature.

[3] Here, the commentators generally have been confronted
with this question: If it is admitted that the creation
of the earth took two days and the setting up of the
mountains and placing of the provisions and blessings
in it took four days, and the creation of the heavens,
took another two days, the total number of the days
would be eight, whereas at several places in the Quran
Allah has said that the creation of the earth and heavens
took six days in all. (For example, see 7:54, 10:3,
11:7, and 25:59). This question can easily be answered
as follows: The two days of the creation of earth are
not separable from the two days in which this universe
as a whole was created. If we consider the following
verses, we see that in them the creation of both the earth
and the heavens has been mentioned together, and then
it has been stated that Allah made the seven heavens in two
days. These seven heavens imply the whole universe, one
part of which is also our earth. Then, when like the
other countless stars and planets of the universe this
earth also took the shape of a unique globe within
two days, Allah began to prepare it for animate creatures,
and in four days created in it all those provisions,
which have been mentioned in the above verse.

[4] By "smoke" is implied the initial and primary stages of matter,
in which it lay diffused in space in a shapeless, dustlike
condition before the formation of the universe. Scientists
of the modern age describe the same thing as nebulae, and
the same also is their view about the beginning of the universe,
that is, before creation the matter of which the universe
was built lay diffused in smoke-like nebulous form.

[5] The matter of the universe lay scattered and diffused in
the form of smoke. Allah willed to give it the
shape of the universe. For this purpose, He did not
have to sit down, like a human artisan, and chisel
and mould the earth, moon, sun and the
other stars and planets, but He only commanded the
scheme of the universe that was in His Mind to come into
being, i.e. the smoke-like diffused matter to take
the shape of the galaxies, stars and planets which He
wanted to create. This matter did not have the power
to resist the command of Allah. No sooner was the
Command given than the matter started contracting
and condensing and taking shape obediently according
to the scheme of its Master.

[Sayed Fawad Hassan]

ci...@D0SB01.FNAL.GOV writes:

>In article <fawad.8...@news.cern.ch>, fa...@surya11.cern.ch (Sayed Fawad Hassan) writes:

>>ci...@D0SB01.FNAL.GOV writes:

>>>I have a copy of the article. He gives the following verse (among

> =====
> (_This_ was a mistake on _my_ part, should have been
> "hadith", not "verse". The part you underlined is
> correct as it stands
> since Moore's article that is being posted
> all over the net has the title (subject)
> "Embrology in Quran", in which he uses the _hadith_.)

>>>many others) as an example of the accuracy of Quran in embryology:
>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>>>VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV
>>
>>>(Kitab Al-Qadar) Sahih MUSLIM

>>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>
>>This is not a reference to the Quran. The quote below seems to be from
>>the book of Qadar (power?) in Sahih Muslim. This is one of the hadith
>>collections named after its collector, Muslim. Unlike the wording of
>>the versus of Quran, it is not believed that a narrator may not have
>>changed the wording of a narration.

>I know. I corrected myself in a later posting. When I said "Embrology
>in Quran", I was quoting from Moore's text (or rather, title). The hadith
>is also given in Moore's text to support his claims. In my correction
>I made it clear that it was a _hadith_, not a _verse_ from Quran as _I_ had
>stated erroneously. Still, it is a fact that _Moore_ uses the hadith to
>support his views. Now, the point I am making is how any honest
>academician can use such a hadith to support his claims that Quran
>gives an accurate description of embroyology. Mistakes are many, as you
>state the first:

First a disclaimer: I am neither an expert in biology nor an authority

in religion, so what I say may not be correct/accurate.

If I am not wrong, Moore does not entirely base his arguments on just

one quote. Thus, to judge his work and conclusions based only on this
one quote, may not be very objective (see below). Moreover, note that
in such matters nobody can furnish a really concrete proof (as
compared to the accuracy of proofs, say, in Physics). Thus one's
conclusions are also affected by the broader picture and one's general
understanding.

Moreover, I do not think the claim is that Quran gives an "accurate

description of embryology" (to quote you). Quran is not supposed to be

a book on embryology or any other science. The claim is more modest:

(1)that the references which Quran makes to some aspects of embryology,
do not contradict our present understanding of the subject.

(2)Furthermore, some of these references seem too sophisticated to be

considered part of the human knowledge at around 1400 years ago. Moore

argues in favour of these claims and bases his conclusions on them. What
is really crucial to the issue of Islam and Science, is part (1) of the
claim. Your disagreement with Moore seems to be related to part (2) of
the claim.

>1. Why use hadiths to support claims about Quran?

From reading parts of Moore's work which were posted on the net, I got
the impression that Moore's line of argument was not exactly as stated
above. By comparing some verses from the Quran as well as some Ahadith
with the pesent day knowledge, he concludes that the facts contained in
these sources could not have come from Prophet Mohammad as a human
being. Moore thus concludes that he must have received some revelation
(and thus his claim to prophethood was not false). Therefore, from what
I understand, he is not directly using Hadith to support Quran, rather, he
is using both Quran and Hadith to argue that Prophet Mohammad must have
recieved some revelation. You may not agree with his conclusions, but I
think this line of argument is logical.

> I personally think

> this is somewhat of a nitpicky argument since if he had managed to
> soundly demonstrate that both Quran and hadiths agreed with modern
> science, I would not care much if he used "Quran" in places where
> "Islam" would be more appropriate (see below).

I do not properly understand the argument here, so I won't comment.

>2. Ok, I can accept that hadiths form the second most important source

> of information in Islam. In this way of thinking, they are an integral
> part of the religion and cannot be left out in discussion of Quran.
> Fine. But how can the above hadith be considered accurate in view of
> modern science? It surely is not as I read it. I challenge anybody to
> claim otherwise.

You are right about the importance of Hadith, but from what I understand,
the Prophet had strictly warned people against blindly accepting any
narration attributed to him. So a Hadith is acceptable if it does not

contradict the Quran and if it is not against facts. In fact there are

narrations which are forged. It is also known that in many cases the same
narration has been reported by different people with different wordings.
This could very well be the case with the Hadith under discussion where a
slight unintentional modification on the narators part could change the
meaning. You may not agree with this argument, but as I said, in such
cases it is difficult to convince (it works both ways).

>3. Further, I can accept that the hadith may not be genuine.

> But, if there was doubt that this hadith was not genuine,
> he should have not used it to support his claims, period.

I do not know much about embryology, but even if I fully accept your
statements, I can see that Moore's quote is not too off, considering

the fact that this statement was made around 1400 years ago. If this

hadith is not fully genuine, it is also not entirely incorrect. Moreover,
as I stated, he has used this Hadith in conjunction with other evidence,
so as such it is part of a bigger argument.

By the way, it is not very clear whether the argument is now directed

against Moore or it is still the compatibility between science and Islam
which is being discussed (the two are not the same).

>Whichever way you look at it, there is something fishy in this

>'scientific' study. My _guess_ is, Moore gave the Saudis something
>to chew on while he used the resources supplied by them to do some
>'real' research.

Maybe he did that, maybe he didn't. Is there any evidence for this or
is it merely a speculation inspired by disagreement with his views?

>I would like to hear from people with firsthand

[Himanshu Nautiyal]

Muslim sez -

: This is what the brilliant Quran states :

: Say: "Do you deny that God, Who created the earth in

: TWO days (periods) ? He indeed is the Lord of all creation.
: He set mountains over the earth (after its creation) and
: bestowed blessings on it [1], and provided in it means
: of sustenance adequately according to the needs and
: demands of all those who ask [2]. This was done

The purpose of religion is to help humans overcome fears while
they are too immature to do so on their own strength. Sort of like
telling a child that there is a fairy godmother looking out for her.

Once we have grown enough to not need this crutch, we should
get rid of it fast to retain rationality.

The kind of stretching you are putting the words of the
Quran to ("smoke" means "nebulae", of course, how can anyone be
stupid enough to doubt that) to say that God put everything in the
Quran, does not indicate an open mind or receptivity to argument.
Still I will try.

Suppose, I came across this one sentence scripture -
"You will find out the truth" and that is it. So, when we make any
discovery, it is only a fulfilment of God's words and if we dont,
well he didnt say when, so just have faith and wait. Each and every
occurrence in the world can be moulded to fit that sentence, either
as a corroboration or at least neutralized as certainly not a
contradiction of it.

Do you see the absurdity? Such a scripture is true,
but would anyone who presented a logical (yeah in precise first
order logic) proof to show that all human knowledge is implied
by the above statement be received with anything but a nervous
smile and backward glances to check the nearest exit?

Basically, science and religion are opposite forces. You
are perfectly entitled to your choice of one. But trying to reconcile
the two will tie you up in knots. Because, science tells you NOT
TO BELIEVE, but to ask to be CONVINCED, while religion does the
converse. Of course, there is an interesting situation where people
start believing in science. I think Asimov wrote an interesting
story on this. Cant recall the title, something like "Levitation".
But that is material for another thread.

Himanshu

[Sayed Fawad Hassan]

ci...@D0SB01.FNAL.GOV writes:

>In article <adam3Dv...@netcom.com>, ad...@netcom.com (Muslim) writes:

>>In article <4tb9b4$g...@fnnews.fnal.gov> ci...@D0SB01.FNAL.GOV writes:

>>Quoting from Moore's book:
>>
>>".. hadith according to Moslem states that the angel will come
>>to the Nutfah 40-45 nights after it settles in the uterus. (page 56)
>>
>>...Hadith according to Moslem states that 42 days after the nutfah
>>forms, God sends an angel to its features and to create its hearing,
>>vision, skin, flesh, and bones. 'Oh, God', the angel asks,
>>'male or female ?' (page 57).

>>Now, again, can you please tell me where the "inaccuracy" you
>>alleged Moore of quoting (in hadith) is ?
>>Or perhaps I misunderstood your argument, in which case,
>>can you please make it a little bit more clearer?

>According to this hadith, is it possible for any human being to know
>before the 42nd day (say on the 17th day) to know the gender of the
>embryo or not. Please answer with either a "yes", a "no", or an
>"I dont know"..

Why do you want an answer only in "yes", "no" or "I don't know"?
For example, if the Hadith does not even address the issue of gender
determination by a human being, then a "yes", "no" or "I do not know"
answer to your question does not exit. In that case, the only answer is
that "the mentioned hadith does not adress this issue".

As we know it, before the sixth week, it is very difficult, if not

impossible, to determine the gender by sonography or visual techniques.
It is however possible to do so using more sophisticated methods.

[Kambiz Iranpour]

ad...@netcom.com (Muslim) wrote:

>Alhumdolillah, I appreciate other Muslims' backgrounds and
>their cultural heritage, and their languages. However, this
>is not to be mistaken as nationalism. Nationalism is when
>one is proud of their NATIONALITY, and/or pledges their
>allegiance to that country. This idea is completely rejected
>in Islam.

The abstract notion of pan-Islamism which refutes nationalism
has shown to be more of a mirage. Isamic movements have shown
that they are very much susceptible to a national identity

when they come into a power position. In Afghanistan they are even

subject to tribal rivalry and tribal interpretations of what

Islam is !! Much of the resilience in the Islamic
movements is due to the failure of secular nationalism
in Islamic countries. However the Islamic movements are
in essence mostly religious nationalist movements. This is also a historic
fact as we know about the rivalry between the Safavids in Iran
and the Ottoman empire. Many believe that Shah Ismail
Safavid a Sunni himself opted for Shia Islam only to resist
the Ottoman Caliphate's claim on its universal Islamic
rule. This was also true with the Moorish Spain whose wars
were mostly conducted against the Muslim south than the
Christian north. Islamic movements in the Middle East are
nationalistic. If their anger is presently conducted against the West
and not their brethren muslim neighbors at the moment, it is
because of the contemporary history of the colonial rule in
the region and the recent meddling of the Industrial West
in the affairs of these countries. Once in power the
nationalist hue will show color.

The utopiansim of Pan-Islamism has always been more of a powerful
popular concept rather than a reality. It is like

the notion of Internationalism in communism. Once in
power, China and Soviets showed that their local variants of
communism were not international in essence but very
much nationalistic. The same is true with the international
application of the human rights concepts in the West.
Often it is a real-politick
means used in trade wars (like against China when necessary)
and is far from its platonic concept. But then we human beings like
to justify even hideous crimes through powerful
moralistic rhetorics !! I guess it is a psychological
self defence. They say that even a criminal at the time of
a crime dehumanize its victim to be able to enact the crime.

At the end I am NOT all against applying these concepts !!
It seems that it is simply the way we human beings interact,

through utopianism and myth-making !! However,
I couldn't help saying that Islamic movements are often
also nationalist movements :-)

Best regards
Kambiz Iranpour

[Kambiz Iranpour]

(A very interesting book)

"The Islamic threat Myth or Reality ?" published by the
Oxford University Press (1995) and written by
John L. Esposito (ISBN 0-19-510298-3) is a well-written book on
the recent revival of political Islam, the Islamic
intellectual currents, the reactions in the West,
the politics of the Middle East
with explanations on the recent events (including Iran.)
The book challenges Huntington's socalled clash of
civilizations and tears down the simple myths
covering the truth on many fronts. It is a work
of research. It also discusses people like
Shariati or Sayyid Qotb and the reasons why people like them
became influential in the Islamic intellectual
resilience we have wittnessed in the last 3 decades.
I recommend the book as a guide to the recent
history and the contemporary thinking in the
Islamic world. The book discusses the reasons behind the
failure of secular nationalism (Pan-Arabism),
it discusses Nasserism, Qadafi's social experiment
and his reinterpretation of Islam, it discusses Turkey
and its secular experiment and it takes up the history of
many Islamic movements like FIS, brotherhood, Jemaat Islami,
etc. I really recommend this book as a real work
of research both for the Islamic and secular people
in the Islamic countries and also to the non-Middle
Easterners (Americans or Europeans or otherwise.)

Regards
Kambiz Iranpour

[Kitty]

Sal Schettino <sa...@rain.org> wrote:
>I the U.S and other places in the world science is taking genes from
>animals,plants,insects and viruses and mixing them together and I was
>wondering is there any one beside me does not want these folks to mix up
>the clean with the unclean.

I think since I work at a genetic engeneering lab, it would be a good
idea for me to take part in this article if you don't mind. I don't know
what you mean by 'clean' and 'unclean' and I do not have any more info
on animals and insect because we only work on plants. When I first
started working at this lab, the first thing I asked was: can we use
genetic engeneering for humans? and of course the answer was no for many
different reasons, one of which is religion. i don't know about the
jewish leaders but the pope in Rome has certainly made his mark on this
issue! We can not do ANY kind of genetic engeneering on people. Do you
know what we CAN do with genetic engeneering? all the genetic diseases
can be cured, many innocent lives can be saved this way. But no, the
church will not allow it! Right now we are working on making the grass
stronger to cold, weeds, ect... when there are so many more important
things such as diseases that can be cured this way.

> One Example: They are taking human genes
>putting them in a pig so that someday they will be able to put them in
>man if he needs blood or organs .People are releasing gene altered life
>now as we speak and I was woundering what religious leaders have to say
>about genetic engeneering.

Well, as I said, the pope is not very happy about all this! I don't
believe there have been (legally) any human tests yet.

>
>This is my reasoning:
>You response shows me that it's true and its going to happen. So they
>are
>taking things that are clean and making them unclean and releasing them
>into
>the world.

Pardon my ignorance, but what do you mean by clean and unclean? They are
not trying to spread anything bad. They are taking the bad genes and
replacing them with good ones. What is wrong with that?

> What kosher religious leaders in the Jewish community are you
>talking to that say its ok to put pork genes in plants and animals we
>eat.

Never heard about this one;-)

>What true Muslim group are you talking to that doesn't mind a little
>pork
>gene in the beef or plants he eats and what vegetarian community like
>the
>idea of putting animal genes in plant we eat.

Are you saying that pork gene is harAm?

> So you talked to the
>Jewish
>and Muslim community . Who gave you the ok in those communities? Don't
>forget their are many more religions then the ones you named and I still
>say
>mixing up genes will mix up these folks that do not agree with you. So
>you
>think you know the whole story. I don't think any man knows the whole
>story
>and the people that think they know the whole story worry me.

you' re right. No one knows the whole story but there are people who
know a gread deal about this... at least more than what the pope or any
other religous leaders know.

> I'm not
>pointing any fingers I'm pointing out that not every one feels the same
>about transgenic produce and we all live on the earth where these man
>made
>gene spliced frankenstein plants,animals and even insects are being
>released. I also do not feel that gene splicing is the same as good
>breeding.

why not?

> Do they have to mix up nature so much to make their moneys?

this is not about money. There are so many things that can bw done by
genetic engeneering.

>Remember the first sin was an angel that thought he knew more than God.

sorry, don't believe I was born then!! But in serious matter I'm an agnostic so your last sentence doesn't mean much to me. I hope you understand.

In addition, I just wanted to say that genetic engeneering is not only
about putting pork genes in other animals, it can mean a great deal of
improvment in the medical field. So many dangerous genetic diseases can
be cured. Other than that, physical beauty and even a person's IQ can be
changes by genetic engeneering. Yet I think the most important thing is
the medical advantages which are banned right now.

Kitty

[ci...@d0sb01.fnal.gov]

In article <adam3Dv...@netcom.com>, ad...@netcom.com (Muslim) writes:

>>In article <4tcqhj$f...@fnnews.fnal.gov> ci...@D0SB01.FNAL.GOV writes:

[deletia]

>so difficult to interpret these verses. A new concept therefore
>existed in the Quran that was not to be explained until centuries
>later.

Such ever changing ex post facto interpretations serve no purpose at
all unless you _know_ from independent evidence that Quran _must_
explain what it _seems_ to explain.

If you dont agree with the statement above, I am including here
something that XYZZY (the Almighty God) told me last night:

"In what follows are the answers to all questions that you can ask.
First you must find the question, next you must understand how to
interpret the answer. I am your only true salvation. Here are the
answers: sgah^shlk99s98hdskl88glhglxjbb;lkjdwhg;ad[01ijlfbakjkh;
daagh;da8hh;jhda8ydaghsdhg'12'0 2iud' 3d8u23 do23uyd82uy'r';uyhfaw
h fuasdfiuyfy349pyufhhasd;fasi83uyhdh yda98y3h"

The first and last quotes are not part of His original message but
the rest of the message is accurate. I am claiming that when properly
interpreted, there is the answer to every question in the lines
above. Try to prove me wrong if you can.

[ci...@d0sb01.fnal.gov]

In article <adam3Dv...@netcom.com>, ad...@netcom.com (Muslim) writes:

>In article <4tcqhj$f...@fnnews.fnal.gov> ci...@D0SB01.FNAL.GOV writes:

[...]

>>Neither do I think that Quran should be expected to say anything more
>>about science than what people of that time knew. This is why I am
>>skeptical about people claiming otherwise and this made me look for
>>the text advertised on the net as making such claims.

[...]

>>Here is a loophole. When you say that "a hadith is genuine as long as it
>>is not against the facts", do you mean the 'facts' of 1400 years ago
>>or the 'facts' of today? Because if you assume the latter, what you are
>>saying in effect is "We will _deny_ any words of the Prophet that do not
>>make sense in view of modern science". I do not think this is very honest.
>>The infallability of the Prophet is not something one can use to
>>assess the genuinity of his hadiths from a scientific perspective.

>Hadith is invalid if it contradicts QURAN. (Not Science).
>Our criterion is the Quran, the absolute truth. We Muslims
>judge everything with Quran.

Good for you. And we nonbelievers judge most with our intellect and some
with our emotions.

>>Like I said, I agree that hadiths may be misquoted and I understand that
>>consistency is an important criteria in assessing whether a hadith is
>>genuine or not. Again one must be careful. If two _different_
>>hadiths seem inconsistent, it does not mean that at least one of
>>then has to be not genuine. Every person that has passed through the face
>>of this earth has been known to have made inconsistent statements at
>>different times. You cannot _assume_ that the Prophet was infallible
>>when your _claim_ is that he was divinely inspired. This is circular
>>logic.

>The hadith were reported and recorded by Muslims, not the Prophet.
>What the prophet said, and what was recorded may have some slight
>variations in wordings, as you can see that some hadith in
>Bukhari are worded differently than some in other hadith
>collections.

If you re-read carefully you will see that this is not what I was
cautioning against.

>>the quote clearly states that it would be impossible for a human
>>being to predict the sex of the foetus (or the embryo) before the
>>42nd day. This part of the quote invalidates his claims about divine
>>inspiration since modern science discredits this notion (that the
>>gender of embryo is not determined before the 42nd day).

> "Determined" by who? It's one thing to predict the sex
> before 42nd day, and another thing that the sex was ACTUALLY
> _developed__before_ 42nd day by God.

If sex was not determined before the 42nd day, we humans could not
predict it before that time, could we?

>>He makes selective interpretations in that 'bigger argument' too. One
>>other thing I remember was, in several hadiths, the 'organs' (skin, flesh,
>>bones, eyes, ..etc) are listed in different orders. In one particular
>>hadith, he claims that the particular order that the hadith mentions
>>is the order these organs become visible in the embryo, making
>>absolutely no comment about the other hadiths where the order does
>>not support his claims. This selective acceptance of data and this and
>>many other schemes of 'patching things' is the reason I am critical of
>>his study. I advise you to read his work critically - it is kind
>>of fun noticing such fallacies.

>AGain, the hadith are worded differently sometimes, in different
>collections. However, the order of the words here becomes very
>critical, and it is left upto the individual to believe or
>not believe. To give the benefit of the doubt to the Prophet's
>hadith, and known accuracy of Quran, one can believe the
>order that agrees with modern science.

Do you give me the benefit of the doubt when I say that the Almighty
XYZZY is your only true salvation? There are claims and then there
are claims..

>(As a matter of fact, in my Astronomy class, the instructor once
> did a very similar thing. He said that there existed
> three definitions of "mile" (the distance), and to give the
> befenit of the doubt to the scientist (I think it was Aristotle),
> they chose the defitnion of the mile that fit well with his
> theory & work. I have no problem with that. Give the benefit of
> the doubt, knowing that the person in quesiton is a reputable
> in his work)

Like I said, there are claims and then there are claims. The "benefit
of the doubt" argument is a last resort if you absolutely cannot
decide which way to go. Even then, it is not failsafe.

>>I have no problem with science and Islam not agreeing on everything.
>>Like I stated above, Quran is not a science text. My problem is
>>with people claiming otherwise, like Moore, and with people who
>>use such claims to promote Islam, like the poster who advertises
>>Moore's work over the net.

>Moore never claimed that Quran is a science text. Niether
>do I claim that Quran is a science test. Quran is not
>a scienct text, although it contains some remarkable scientific
>statements in it, which I simply cannot ignore, and feel
>very honoured to tell the world about them.

The honor belongs to the Arabs of that time who knew about these
things which made their way into the Quran. Not to you, not to
your Allah..

[Muslim]

In article <4tb9b4$g...@fnnews.fnal.gov> ci...@D0SB01.FNAL.GOV writes:

[..deleted..]

Quoting from Moore's book:

".. hadith according to Moslem states that the angel will come
to the Nutfah 40-45 nights after it settles in the uterus. (page 56)

..Hadith according to Moslem states that 42 days after the nutfah
forms, God sends an angel to its features and to create its hearing,
vision, skin, flesh, and bones. 'Oh, God', the angel asks,
'male or female ?' (page 57).

Now, again, can you please tell me where the "inaccuracy" you
alleged Moore of quoting (in hadith) is ?
Or perhaps I misunderstood your argument, in which case,
can you please make it a little bit more clearer?

Also, about the questions you asked about connecting Saudi's & Moore:
All I can say is that that is a rather lame attempt
to try to discredit a well known scientist.

(I have made a change in the topic to include the word 'Hadith' also,
in order to be more precise, as you had pointed out earlier.)

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Embryology and Life Sciences in Quran & Hadith
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Prof. Moore has said:

He says:

--------------------------------------------------------------------

To receive a copy of the article that Moore wrote about
'Highlights of Human Embryology in the Koran and Hadith'
please e-mail me

[Himanshu Nautiyal]

ci...@D0SB01.FNAL.GOV wrote:

: "In what follows are the answers to all questions that you can ask.

: First you must find the question, next you must understand how to
: interpret the answer. I am your only true salvation. Here are the
: answers: sgah^shlk99s98hdskl88glhglxjbb;lkjdwhg;ad[01ijlfbakjkh;
: daagh;da8hh;jhda8ydaghsdhg'12'0 2iud' 3d8u23 do23uyd82uy'r';uyhfaw
: h fuasdfiuyfy349pyufhhasd;fasi83uyhdh yda98y3h"

: The first and last quotes are not part of His original message but
: the rest of the message is accurate. I am claiming that when properly
: interpreted, there is the answer to every question in the lines
: above. Try to prove me wrong if you can.

Hi,
If Ms/Mr Muslims's response to my post is any indicator, he will
just ignore your reasoning. I had posted a similar question and the silence
is not unexpected.

Your post reminds me of Douglas Adams trilogy of 5 books starting
with "Hitchhikers guide to the galaxy" where the answer to the "question of
the life, the universe and everything" is 42. This is found after (I think)
6 million years of computation. After a similar time frame, the question
is found. And you guessed it - it is "what is six times seven" :-) And if
god were to tell us this, and we have implicit faith in God, who are we
mere mortals to doubt the importance of this one question to the whole of
creation.

--
Himanshu

[Muslim]

In article <31F8D8...@ix.netcom.com> Kab...@ix.netcom.com writes:
>Gentleman,
>
>Can you please quote a reference in Qu'ran that one day (in God's
>calendar) equals 1000 years for human?
>
>Kabeer

From: Tuf...@bbs.c4systm.com (Tufail)
===================================================================
Date: 7 Aug 1995 21:48:51 -0700

>>>> It appears to a casual reader that man's future is predetermined
because God in the Qur'an states:
"...He knoweth what (appears to His creatures as)
before or after or behind them..." [2:255]

However this is only an illusion. Only when we integrate the God' Law
of relativity and understand the real nature of time the conflict would
fade away.

Isaac Newton thought that he knew what Time was. He wrote in his
Principa Mathematica that Time as "absolute, true, mathematical time, of
itself and from its nature, flows equably without relation to anything
external."

Newton was wrong. Centuries before Newton the Qur'an said that Time
is relative as far as man is concerned. However there is only one absolute
Time that belong to God. According to saying of the Prophet (S): "God says,
'I am Time Absolute (ad-dahr)'".

The Qur'an states:

"...verily a day in the sight of thy Lord is like
thousand years of your reckoning." [22:47]

"...He administers the affairs of the world from heavens to the
earth, and the reports of his administration ascend to Him
in a day whose legth, according to your reckoning, a
thousand years..." [32:5]

"The angels and the spirit ascend to Him in a day, measure of whereof
is as fifty thousand years." [70:4]

>>>>The day (time) mentioned in these verses are relative times (days) of
four independent entities--God, man, angels, and transfer of infermation.
This verses shows that every entity has its own time.

Centuries later, Albert Eistein proved to the world the relative nature
of time. He said that Time is elastic and can be stretched and strung by
motion. Each observer carries around his own personal time, and it does not
generally agree with anybody else's. In our own frame, time never appears
to distorted, but relative to another observer, who is moving differently
our Time can be wrenched out of step with their Time. That is, Time
between two events is greater for an earth-bound observer than for a
space-travelling observer.

>>>> A great Muslim Sufi understood this from the Qur'an in 1200 A.D.
He wrote:

"In the spaceless realm of light of God, the past, present
and future does not exist. Past and future are two things
in relation to you; in reality they are one.

"Thy thought is about the past and future; when you get
rid of these two the difficulty will be solved."

[Mathenavi of Rumi]

>>>Rumi learned the nature of time from verses quoted above and from the
verse following verse:

"...He knoweth what appears as His creatures as before after
or behind..."[2:255]

>>>>According to the above verse our past, present and future are strung
to God's "NOW or PRESENT". This verse and other verse quoted earlietr
also suggest that many specially separated events can be seen by one
person [in this instance God] at one moment; but for a man, same evnts
appears as occuring one after another over a long period of Time.

>>>>Centuries late the Qur'an revelation and Rumi, Albert Einstein
said:

"You have to accept the idea that subjective time
with its emphasis on "now" has no objective meaning
....the distiction between past, present, and future
is only an illusion, however persistant."

>>>>Conclusion: One persons past is another persns present another person's
future. Modern physics has shown us that there is no universal "NOW OR
PRESENT." So, Allah's "NOW OR PRESENT" encompasses all events that we
call our past, present and future. It means whatever happens to us in our
past, present and future in our Time frame is seen by God as happening in
his "NOW OR PRESENT" in HIS ABSOLUTE TIME (AD-DAHR) frame.
Once we understand this created nature of Time, it become clear that there
is no predestination in Islam and event though God knows man's past, present,
and future. And there is free will for man. And also there is justice and
mercy in HIs judgement.

Wallahu Ahlam {God knows better}

Peace

Tufail
--
==================================END==FORWARDED==ARTICLE==========

[hallaj]

macan <ma...@pop-box.mcgill.ca> wrote:

>an20...@anon.penet.fi wrote:
>>
>> ISLAM AND SCIENCE
>> .........
>>

>> A common misconception ....... Islam

>> and Science are two mutually incompatible and inconsistent fields of
>> human activity.

>It was the same for Europians till Renaisance.

>>
The article is deleted...

Dear Mr. Macan and all who countribute in this thread!

[Muslim]

The Source of the Constituents of Animal Milk
----------------------------------------------

This is defined in the Quran in strict accordance with
the data of modern knowledge (Sura 16, verse 66).
The translation and interpretation of this verse given
here is my own because even modern translations
habitually give it a meaning which is, in my opinion,
hardly acceptable. Here are two examples:

-R.Blachere's translation of Quran 16: 66 :
Verily, in your cattle there is a lesson for you!
We give you a pure milk to drink, excellent for
its drinkers; (it comes) from what, in their
bellies, is between digested food and blood."
-Professor Hamidullah's translation of Quran 16:66 :
Verily, there is food for thought in your cattle.
From what is in thier bellies, among thier excrement
and blood, We make your drink pure milk, easy for
drinkers to imbile."

IF these texts were shown to a physiologist, he would reply
that they were extremely obscure, the reason being that
there hardly appears to be much agreement between them
and modern notions, even on a very elementary level.
These translations are the work of highly eminent Arabists.
It is a well known fact however, that a translator, even an
expert, IS LIABLE TO MAKE MISTAKES IN THE TRANSLATION
OF SCIENTIFIC STATEMENTS, UNLESS HE HAPPENS TO BE A
SPECIALIST IN THE DISCIPLINE IN QUESTION.

The most valid translation seems to me to be the following:

QURAN 16:66:

"VERILY, IN CATTLE THERE IS A LESSON FOR YOU.
WE (ALLAH) GIVE YOU TO DRINK OF WHAT IS INSIDE
THIER BODIES, COMING FROM A CONJUNCTION BETWEEN
THE CONTENTS OF THE INTESTINE AND THE BLOOD,
A MILK PURE AND PLEASANT FOR THOSE WHO DRINK IT."


This interpretation is very close to the one given in the
Muntakab, 1973, edited by the Supreme Council for Islamic
Affairs, Cairo, which relies for its support on modern
physiology.

From the point of view of its vocabulary, the proposed
translation may be justified as follows:

I have translated 'inside their bodies' and not,
as R.Blachere and Professor Hamidullah have done,
'inside thier bellies'. This is because the Arabic word
'batn' also means 'middle', 'interior of something', as
well as 'belly'. The word does not here have a meaning
that is anatomically precise. 'Inside thier bodies' seems
to concur perfectly with the context.

The notion of a 'primary origin' of the constituents of
milk is expressed by the Arabic word 'min' (in English 'from')
and the idea of a conjuction by the Arabic word 'baini'.
The latter not only signifies 'among' but also 'between'
in the other translations quoted. It is however also used
to express the idea that two things or two people are
brought together.

From a scientific point of view, physiological notions
must be called upon the grasp the meaning of this verse.

The substances that ensure the general nutrition of the
body come from chemical transformations which occur along
the length of the digestive tract. These subtances
come from the contents of the intestine. On the arrival
in the intestine at the appropriate stage of chemical
transformation, they pass through its wall and towards
the systemic circulation. This passage is effected in
two ways: either directly, by what are called 'lymphatic
vessels', or indirectly, by the portal circulation.
This conducts them first to the liver, where they undergo
alterations, and from here they then emerge to join the
systemic circulation. In this way everything passes
through the bloodstream.

The constituents of milk are secreted by the mammary glands.
These are norished, as it were, by the product of
food digestion brought to them via the bloodstream. Blood
therefore plays the role of collector and conductor of what
has been extracted from food, and it brings nutrition to
the mammary glands, the producers of milk, as it does to any
other organ.

Here the initial process which sets everything else in motion
is the bringing together of the contents of the intestine
and blood at the level of the intestinal wall itself.
This very precise concept is the result of the discoveries
made in the chemistry and physiology of the digestive
system. It was totally UNKNOWN at the time of
the Prophet Muhammad and has been understood only in recent
times. The discovery of the circulation of the blood,
was made by Harvey roughly ten centuries after the Quranic
Revelation.

I consider that the existence in the Quran of the verses
referring to these concepts can have no human explanation
on account of the period in which they were formulated.

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Taken from:

LA BIBLE, LE CORAN ET LA SCIENCE
Maurice Bucaille (A French Physician)

Translated from French by Alastair D. Pannel & The Author

(The Bible the Quran and Science)
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

[Jim Jamal]

Let us assume that the Universe is Allah's Workshop. Do not be
upset. Allah is opearting the Universe the same way an engineer
runs a workshop. The Science is Allah's Law. For example it is
Allah who created the formula of making water with 2 parts of
hydrogen and one part of oxygen. The scientist (human being) only
discovers scientific laws created by Allah.

Islam is primarily to establish the identity of Allah and belief in
Allah. The Holy Quran is the WORD of Allah for guidance of mankind,
and not a book to teach Allah's scientific laws. Allah gave brain
to human being to find out themselves the scientific laws created
by Allah.

If the scientists found out that the universe was created out of a
big bang 15 billions years ago, and the Holy Quran says that Allah

created the world in 7 or 8 days, is this a major issue to create

an issue such as science vs Islam. Allah knows best the meaning of
His WORDS. No human being, not even a prophet will know everything
about Allah's work and Allah's scientific laws. Where a muslims finds
contradiction between the Holy Quran and the proven scientific
theory, at best the muslim should say "Allah knows best".
ALLAH IS THE CREATER OF ALL SCIENTIFIC LAWS GOVERNING THIS UNIVERSE
AND ANY OTHER UNIVERSE STILL UNKNOWN TO MANKIND.

O ALLAH! please forgive me if I have said anything which may be
considered UN-ISLAMIC. I am a human being subject to mistakes
and errors.

[-Surensoy,E.]

If a person claims that Islam vs Christianity vs Judaism vs
you name it is not a "clash of civilizations", he either is
trying to make a fool out of you or himself. If really there
were no such "clash of civilizations", there would never be
a need or reason to invent the three Abrahamic religions which
are fundamentally identical to each other.

In article <4tcs7q$s...@ratatosk.uio.no),
Kambiz Iranpour <m.k.ir...@fys.uio.no) wrote:
)
) (A very interesting book)
)
)
)"The Islamic threat Myth or Reality ?" published by the
)Oxford University Press (1995) and written by
)John L. Esposito (ISBN 0-19-510298-3) is a well-written book on
)the recent revival of political Islam, the Islamic
)intellectual currents, the reactions in the West,
)the politics of the Middle East
)with explanations on the recent events (including Iran.)
)The book challenges Huntington's socalled clash of
)civilizations and tears down the simple myths
)covering the truth on many fronts. It is a work
)of research. It also discusses people like
)Shariati or Sayyid Qotb and the reasons why people like them
)became influential in the Islamic intellectual
)resilience we have wittnessed in the last 3 decades.
)I recommend the book as a guide to the recent
)history and the contemporary thinking in the
)Islamic world. The book discusses the reasons behind the
)failure of secular nationalism (Pan-Arabism),
)it discusses Nasserism, Qadafi's social experiment
)and his reinterpretation of Islam, it discusses Turkey
)and its secular experiment and it takes up the history of
)many Islamic movements like FIS, brotherhood, Jemaat Islami,
)etc. I really recommend this book as a real work
)of research both for the Islamic and secular people
)in the Islamic countries and also to the non-Middle
)Easterners (Americans or Europeans or otherwise.)
)
)
)
)
)Regards
)Kambiz Iranpour
)

[Tine]

May be you are right!

an20...@anon.penet.fi wrote:

>>an20...@anon.penet.fi wrote:
>>>
>>> ISLAM AND SCIENCE
>>> .........
>>>
>>> A common misconception ....... Islam
>>> and Science are two mutually incompatible and inconsistent fields of
>>> human activity.
>>It was the same for Europians till Renaisance.
>>
>>>

>>> This misconception appears to have gained a hold on the Muslim ..
>>
>>There is no relegion which grants freedom of thinking to human mind.
>>
>>>
>>> To be able to understand this state of mental stultification....
>>
>>This is similiar to mental state of a gambler. As we loose more due to
>>otherworldliness we become evenmore otherwordly, with the hope of, at
>>least, securing some befits after death.
>>
>> ....
>>
>>Today, human kind knows so much about the univers; its physical aspects,
>> its nature, its size relative to ours, and that stars are not "noors",
>>and that we can seek settlements in other parts of space which are no
>>similiar to our little planet, etc. It is almost imposible for an awake
>>mind to belive that Jesus was the son (or himself) of the creator of
>>this infinitely huge system; or that Muhammed " ride through the seven
>>skies" on the back of a camel to pay a visit to the Creator, or that
>>Moses talk to The Creator on top of an hill, or that Sun is the creator,
>>or that...
>>

>>There seems to be one thing for sure; our REACHABLE univers is created

>>by some extra universal MAKER. All its mysteries would be solved is
>>seconds if we would have a clue for its reason of being. Relegion of
>>Science is after this question.

>It will not manage to find it unless we manage to cooperate. Your west
>has a history of evil. Just ask what they did in Bosnia and elsewhere?

>>Dervish.

>Your thinking is not only a threat to others but to your own self. Science
>only manages to find the rules of the game. Mechanics, Electromagnetism
>explain how many things follow from the basic laws, but not the basic
>laws. You can guess the basic laws, but you cannot explain how they came
>about to be. Why is pi 3.14... why is h=6.02exp-23 and so on? cannot be
>explained?

>So in essence, by observing the universe (the events occuring in the
>universe either under controlled experimental conditions or otherwise)
>you guess the basic rules according to which the universe runs, and
>this is all that science is. If some such event explains many things
>but is itself not explained, then you treat it as a law. This is how
>on the basis of probabilistic wave interference of particles quantum
>mechaincs was born and is nothing but extrapolation of experiment which
>is how schrodinger's equation is written.

>This central view that the universe obeys laws was given by Islam.

>Now by observing the game you can not tell why the game was originally
>conceived in a certain way. One work around that has been carried is
>to go back in time, or extrapolate the evolution of the game to the
>time it started. That is why astronomy comes into play in physics.

>However, that will not lead to anywhere in my opinion. Because universe
>is Allah's will and only to us does it appear as palpable physical objects.
>It is a fiction, and we are in it and as fictitious. It is a computer
>program running according to God's will, and just as a program cannot
>perceive the electrons that run it, despite the fact that they are closer
>to it than anything else (jugular vein). Hence, muslims must not waste
>time on these stupid philosophical questions after understanding this.
>We live in this world, and have to defend our physical existence and
>religious freedom against the forces of evil such as the ones that have
>shown their ugly face in Bosnia, and we must work hard in acquiring the
>knowledge that will enable us to thwart the evil attacks and to ensure a
>good life of peace and prosperity for muslims. We have a lot of poor and
>sick people and they need our efforts and time for technological development.

>These philosophical discussions are used by our enemies to distract us from
>constructive positive work. Other times they are result of sick or deluded
>and ignorant minds among us.

[Kabeer Punjabi]

Himanshu Nautiyal wrote:
>
[ Text deleted]

>
> Hi,
> If Ms/Mr Muslims's response to my post is any indicator, he
> will > just ignore your reasoning. I had posted a similar question and
> the silence is not unexpected.
>

Gentleman,

I've been watching this guy's posting for a while. He and other "Muslim"
buddies using different IDs have something in common, other than
religious belief. Here is the common line in those postings:

"Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)"

May be, they are all using the same PC located at Muslim Cutural Center
in Santa Clara or San Jose, based on area code.

I've also seen some postings from this guy which were not his own. He
forgot to edit them and the first line said "from mo...@aol.com"
indicating that they were (possibly) written by Moin Ansari (?) of
Chicago (?).

The bottom line is this is just a propaganda stuff financed by oil
money.

Kabeer

[Himanshu Nautiyal]

Muslim (ad...@netcom.com) wrote:

Thank you for responding. I will try to address the points which
you raise and wait for your response on the issues.

: Islam is not a religion. Its a deen. Deen in Arabic means
: a complete belief system, and a way of life, which
: also includes social, economic, and political system.

Good. So, why do we need the religious part of it. It is UNNECESSARY
unless it were to be applied as the coercive mechanism to enforce the deen.
Assuming that an enforcing mechanism is needed is equivalent to assuming
that the subjects of it will not accept it spontaneously - so either they are
not rational (dont know their own good) or the deen is NOT to their interest.

As for the arguments on the truth of a divine being, I attempt to
be rational. Under that aim, it is equally irrational to assume a God does
NOT as it is to assume one DOES exist. So, I would like to look at all
your arguments.

> The kind of stretching you are putting the words of the
: >Quran to ("smoke" means "nebulae", of course, how can anyone be
: >stupid enough to doubt that) to say that God put everything in the
: >Quran, does not indicate an open mind or receptivity to argument.
: >Still I will try.

: The above is a classical example of ignorance of Quran, and
: shows how much you need to learn and understand Islam,
: before talking about it. Smoke doesn't mean Nebulae,
: how can anyone be stupid enough to think that ?
: Arabic word 'shuwaz' and 'nuhas' are roughly translated to mean
: "smoke", because there's no equivalent in English language.
: The word shuwas as used in the original means the pure smokeless
: flame, and nuhas is the gross smoke without a flame.
: By "smoke" is implied the initial and primary stages of matter,

Any need to imply a different meaning by a word than the conventional
(without explicit note of that fact) is untruth or an attempt at justification
which fails to convince a person not already convinced.

: in which it lay diffused in space in a shapeless, dustlike
: condition before the formation of the universe. Scientists

: of the modern age describe the same thing as nebulae, and

: the same also is their view about the beginning of the universe,

: that is, before creation the matter of which the universe
: was built lay diffused in smoke-like nebulous form.

: > Suppose, I came across this one sentence scripture -

: >"You will find out the truth" and that is it. So, when we make any
: >discovery, it is only a fulfilment of God's words and if we dont,
: >well he didnt say when, so just have faith and wait. Each and every
: >occurrence in the world can be moulded to fit that sentence, either

: >as a corroboration or at least neutralized as certainly not a
: >contradiction of it.

: The same is not true of Quran. In fact, Quran has challenged
: manking to prove it wrong:
: 1) To come up with something like it (or better)
: That is, write even chapter like the Quran if you
: can, and call all your helpers and experts.
: 2) Find any contradictions in it.

Why should the methods given by Quran be the only ones acceptable to
prove it wrong. If you had read what I was saying, I was NOT even claiming
that it was wrong - it might be perfectly right but correct in no useful
way. I give you the same two tests for my scripture and challenge you to
prove it wrong.

: Also, in order for a Muslim to take Quran as the word of Creator,
: one must (after proving the Existence of Creator (God, Allah)
: prove oneself that Quran is not a book authored by any human.
: In other words, "Who wrote Quran"?
: If you say Arabs wrote it, or Muhammad [pbuh] wrote it,
: then you have to prove that that is in fact true.

An excellent attempt to rigorously prove your hypothesis and I
admire the painstaking effort. However, I have some doubts/questions/points.

: -------------------------------------
: "Who Wrote the Holy Quran"
: -------------------------------------

: Quran, in Arabic, could only have been written by ONE of 3 possible
: sources:

: 1 the Arabs
:
: 2 Mohammad (peace be upon him)

: 3 Allah (GOD)

: (NOTE: The first part is not meant to be a rigorous proof. It is
: something to ponder upon. However, the second part, about Mohammad
: [pbuh] wrote it' contains more extensive proof.)

: Besides the above mentioned sources, Quran couldn't possibly have been
: written by ANYONE else.

: No other source is possible, because Quran is written in pure, rich, and
: poetic Arabic, which was not known to anyone other than the above mentioned
: sources, at that time.
: The Arabic language was at its peak in expression, richness,
: vocabulary, artistic, and poetic value during the time the Quran was
: being revealed. Anyone speaking the classical Arabic ( the Arabic of
: Quran at the time it was revealed) would argue that a non-Arab entity
: couldn't possibly have written such an extensive and brilliant piece
: of literature in the Arabic language. Quran could only have been written
: by an Arabic speaking entity. An entity, who's knowledge, style, vocabulary,
: grammar, and way of expression was so powerful that it impacted the entire
: Arabian peninsula, the east, the west, and continues to impact people
: all over the globe today!

Impact is not proof of greatness or correctness. If that were so,
communism should have been accepted as a truth of the same order.

: At no other time, in the history
: of Arabic language, had it ever achieved its peak in expression,
: literature, and development, than the time of Arabia during the 6th Century,
: the time when Quran was being revealed. At no other time in the history
: of Arabic language had the language ever achieved its highest potential
: than the time of Arabia during the 6th Century, the time when Quran was
: being revealed. The language reached its peak in richness, artistic
: value, and poetry, during that time. With the Arabic language at its
: peak, and the best of Arabic writers, poets present in Arabia, it is
: impossible that a non-Arabic speaking entity would write a book like
: Quran and have such a dynamite impact on the Arabs!

<See above>

: So only an Arabic speaking entity could have write Quran. With that in mind,
: we're left with three choices:

: 1 - the Arabs wrote it

: 2 - Mohammad (pbuh) wrote it

: 3 - Allah (swt) wrote it

: Lets examine the three choices one by one.

: (1) Arabs Wrote it ?
: ---------------------

: What Quran teaches goes DIRECTLY against the pagan Arab culture,
: religion, and gods, that existed before the Quran was revealed.
: Quran condemns idol worshiping, but the Arabs, loved their idol
: gods, and worshiped them regularly. Quran raised the status
: of women; the Arabs treated women next to animals. The Arabs

Some proof of the last sentence please. I am ignorant on how
the Quran increased the status of women to a level they did not already
have.

: would never write something that goes against their most important
: belief of idol worshiping. Quran goes against most of the
: social habits (such as backbiting, slandering, name calling,
: etc) which the Arabs were heavily indulged into. For example, the

Surely, you are not implying that the Arabs had an institutionalized
religion (or even an informal one) which condoned the above practices. I
am beginning to doubt the usefulness of this effort in the face of such
reasoning, but let us proceed.

: Arabs would call insulting nicknames such as Abu Jahal (the father
: of ignorance). Quran condemns and prohibits taking interest on money,
: whereas, the Arabs freely levied heavy interest rates in loans
: and businesses. Quran condemns and prohibits Alcohol drinking, whereas,
: the Arabs consumed alcohol freely. The Quran condemns and prohibits
: gambling, whereas, the Arabs were some of the worst gamblers.
: The Arabs would never write something so comprehensively against just
: about all of their customs and culture and religious beliefs, as the
: Quran is.

It is VERY possible for people to subscribe to a faith and not follow
all its principles. You dont mean to tell me that no Muslim
1. takes interest on money
2. drinks
3. gambles
What rules out a person who may have realized that this was bad
and that the then society was rotting. What discounts a potential reformer
(or even a group of them) having written all of the "deen" in the Quran.
IF this did happen, how would such a person go about ensuring what he
wrote be followed. YOU tell me. I wont insult your intelligence by putting
that into words.

: During the time of the Holy Prophet (pbuh), the Arabs would indulge
: in all the social habits that the Quran condemns and prohibits. How
: can Arabs then write something that would negate their entire society's
: norms and ideologies ?

Not all of society thinks alike and it only takes one/a few people
to write a book. The above reasoning is invalid.

: Did a group of Arabs or an individual Arab write Quran?
: Perhaps a rebel Arab beduoin, or a society's misfit, or someone with
: different ideals and norms decided one day to write Quran?

Why all the pejoratives? It suggests building a strawman and
discrediting him and then saying that a work of high literary merit (at least)
cannot come from such a detestable source.

: The answer to those questions are also 'no'. Because, if we read Quran,
: we notice that there is no author ! No individual has his/her name
: written on the cover of Quran! Any time an individual writes a book, he/she
: writes his/her name on the cover. The author's name always appears on
: his/her book, and there is always an author who is credited for writing
: that book. No one in the history of the world has EVER claimed to have
: written the Quran, nor anyone's name ever appeared in front of the Quran
: as being the 'author'. This is the only book in the world without an
: author. No one in the world has ever been accused of writing the Holy
: Quran, except the Prophet Mohammad (peace be upon him), by non-muslims.

Yeah right, if you were to write a book of directions which you
intend to have everyone follow, you sure would put your own name on it. NOT
if you had brains. I guess what I wrote two paras earlier does not hold and
I SHOULD spell it out - if you intended what you wrote to be honored you
would say that GOD wrote it.

: Quran has no author, and no group or individual in Arabia ever
: claimed to have written it, nor any group or an individual recited, taught,
: and explained Quran except the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) and his followers.
: The Prophet Mohammad (peace be upon him) was the only Arabian who first
: practiced, explained, and preached Quran, and ended up making
: a lot of Arab tribes enemies. Any historian, Muslim or non-Muslim would argue
: that the only possible source of Quran can be the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh),
: the man responsible to recite it, teach it, and explain it to the
: people of Arabia. In fact, many historians today still think that
: only Mohammad (pbuh) could possibly have written it.

Are there any proofs or even evidences from sources not already
converted to Islam of the fact that the prophet Mohammed was the first
to practice Islam and practice, explain and preach the Quran?

: This leads one to conclude that the Prophet (pbuh) must have written it !

Hello? Oh ok, if you insist. Let us ASSUME that (1) is disproved and
move on to (2).

: (2) Mohammad (pbuh) wrote it ?
: ------------------------------

: First, he was illiterate !! How can an illiterate person come up
: with such a rich, poetic, intellectual, and inspiring
: text that it rocked the entire Arabia ?

Was the entire Arabia rocked because of the richness, poetry
intellectuality and inspiration in the Quran. How many people converted
willingly to Islam, influenced by Quran, as opposed to at the end of a
violent conflict?

: Mohammad (pbuh) never went to school ! No one taught him.
: He had no teacher of any kind in any subjects. How can he have
: the knowledge of all the science, astronomy, oceanography, etc
: that is contained in the Quran ? ( For example, the mention of

About the not going to school, is that mentioned by any NON-Islamic
source?

: ocean currents, stars, earth, moon, sun and their fixed paths

Anyone who has eyes knew of them.

: in Soorah Rahman; and many other scientific statements that are
: found in Quran, that I cannot state in this short article)

SHORT indeed. I searched your post and have not found ONE (YEAH ONE)
example of a scientific fact that is plainly stated in the Quran but would
not have been known in the 7th century to humans. All "facts" in this post
require a slight tweaking of some words to even appear to be so. Why is that?

: When Quran was revealed, the Arabic language was at its peak in richness,
: poetic value, literature, etc. Quran came and challenged the best
: literature in Arabic, the best poetry in Arabic of the time.
: Mohammad (pbuh) being illiterate couldn't possibly have come up with something
: so immaculate that it even exceeded the best of poetry, and literature
: in Arabic at the time of the language's PEAK development.
: Arabic language had never been so rich in expression, poetic value,
: vocabulary, and variety in literature, as it was in the time of Quran.
: At a time like this, Quran came and exceeded the best of Arabic in
: all aspects of the language: poetry, literature, expression, etc.
: Any classical Arabic speaker would appreciate the unbeaten, unchallenged,
: and unmatched beauty of the language of Quran.

Umm, probably true. so?

: An illiterate man is simply not capable of writing such a book.

Objections
1. "Illiterate" from non-Islamic sources?
If this is true, then certainly (2) may be ruled out.

: Mohammad (pbuh) had no reason to come up with something like Quran, and
: cause the entire society of Arabia to become his enemy. Why would he
: do something like that? Why would he write something going against
: almost all of the norms of the society, and lose his family, relatives,
: friends, and other loved ones , and not to mention all the wealth he
: lost ?

We already know of one being who aspired to power and went against
all that he had been taught. He lost EVERYTHING and burnt for it.
(in the Christian-Islamic mythology). We also
know of two other lesser beings who directly disobeyed GOD himself, forget
a society. WHY did they do that? So, one (or more) of these incidents is
false. Which? Invalid logic. On the other hand, if prophet Mohammed himself
wrote the Quran but in a trancelike state, would he not HIMSELF believe
that he had the word of God?

: Quran was revealed over a period of 23 years ! A very long time!
: Is it possible for someone to maintain the same exact style of
: Arabic speech , as demonstrated in Quran, for over 23 years ?

Why not? Precisely what is a style and precisely what is constant
about it? And if God has a writing style, mercy be on us.

: Also, what the prophet Mohammad (saaw) used to say is recorded in what
: we call his hadeeth (sunnah). If we look at the Arabic style of the
: hadeeth, and compare it with the style of Quran, we can clearly see
: that they are clearly DIFFERENT, and DISTINGUISHABLE Arabic styles.
: The prophet (saaw) spoke in public. It does not make sense that a
: man has two UNIQUE, Distinguishable, and completely different styles
: of speech in public. Yet another reason why Mohammad (saaw) couldn't
: possibly have written Quran.

Need I tell YOU about having two personalities? I will not go into
possibilities as I do not wish to unnecessarily insult a person who very
likely was a great man.

: Quran was revealed over a period of 23 years ! A very long time!
: Is it possible for someone to maintain the same exact style of
: Arabic speech , as demonstrated in Quran over 23 years ?

Please do edit your ENORMOUS posts, you are repeating stuff.

: Here's what our famous Muslim Scholar, Ahmad Deedat said:

: [From Ahmed Deedat]

: WAS QURAN WRITTEN OR INSPIRED?
: ------------------------------

: "Behold! The angels said: "O Mary! God has chosen you and purified
: you - Chosen you above the women of all nations."
: Qur'an-3:42
:

: THE SOURCE OF HIS MESSAGE
:
: "Chosen you above the women of all nations." Such an honour is not
: to be found given to Mary even in the Christian Bible!
: ...........
: Knowing full-well, and believing as we do, that the whole Quran
: is the veritable Word of God, we will nevertheless agree, for the
: sake of argument, with the enemies of Muhammed (pbuh) for a moment,
: that he wrote it. We can now expect some cooperation from the unbeliever.
:
: Ask him, "Have you any qualms in agreeing that Muhammed (pbuh)
: was an Arab?" Only an opinionated fool will hesitate to agree.
: In that case there is no sense in pursuing any discussion. Cut
: short the talk. Close the book!
:
: With the man of reason, we proceed. "That this Arab, in the first
: instance, was addressing other Arabs. He was not talking to Indian
: Muslims, Chinese Muslims, or Nigerian Muslims. He was addressing
: his own people - the Arabs. Whether they agreed with him or not,
: he told them in the most sublime form - words that were seared
: into the hearts and minds of his listeners that Mary the mother
: of Jesus -A JEWESS- was chosen above the women of all nations.
: Not his own mother, nor his wife nor his daughter, nor any other
: Arab woman, but a Jewess! Can one explain this? Because to everyone
: his own mother or wife, or daughter would come before other women.

: Why would the Prophet of Islam honour a woman from his opposition!
: and a Jewess at that! belonging to a race which had been looking down
: upon his people for three thousand years? Just as they still look
: down upon their Arab brethren today.

: SARAH AND HAGAR

: The Jews get their cock-eyed racism from their Holy Bible, where
: they are told their father, Abraham, had two wives -Sarah and
: Hagar. They say that they are the children of Abraham through Sarah,
: his legitimate wife; that their Arab brethren have descended through
: Hagar, a "bondwoman", and that as such, the Arabs are inferior breed.

: Will anyone please explain the anomaly as to why Muhammed (pbuh)
: (if he is the author) chose this Jewess for such honour? The answer
: is simple - HE HAD NO CHOICE - he had no right to speak of his own
: desire. "IT IS NO LESS THAN AN INSPIRATION SENT DOWN TO HIM." (Qur'an,
: 53:4).

: SURA MARYAM

: There is a Chapter in the Holy Quran, named Sura Maryam "Chapter Mary"
: (XIX) named in honour of Mary, the mother of Jesus Christ (pbuh); again,
: such an honour is not to be found given to Mary in the Christian Bible.
: Out of the 66 books of the Protestants and 73 of the Roman Catholics,
: not one is named after Mary or her son. You will find books named after
: Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, Paul and two score more obscure names,
: but not a single one is that of Jesus or Mary!

: If Muhammed (pbuh) was the author of the Holy Quran, then he would not
: have failed to include in it with MARYAM, the mother of Jesus, his own
: mother - AMINA, his dear wife - KHADIJA, or his beloved daughter - FATIMA.
: But No! No! this can never be. The Quran is not his handiwork!

Just what prevents the insertion of the above just SO THAT the above
reasoning may be made. What I suspect is that the PURPOSE of the Quran
was social, not divine and that the religious backing as word of God was
only to ensure acceptance.

: Another Muslim writes:

: -----------------------------------------------------FORWARDED ARTICLE---

: From: Abu Abdullah;
: Subject: Re: Mohammad Wrote the Quran ?? [KORAN]
: Date: Sat, 05 Aug 95 12:44:14 EDT
: --------------------------------------------------------------------------

: I was reading about the charge that the prophet, Mohammed (pbuh),
: has written the Quran himself. Before you go any further in
: reading this post, please ask yourself whether you are a honest truth
: seeker or just another argumentative person, if the former, continue,
: otherwise, save your time and jump to the next post.
:
: Islam is based on faith that is supported by a number of strong
: miracles such as knowing what events to take place ahead of time or
: coming up with supernatural deeds in front of people. The holy Quran
: has these signs and much more. First, The holy Quran predicted many
: events to take place ahead of the time of the revelation of that verse;
: for example, predicting the destruction of Persian empire at a time where
: the later had a monumental victory over Rome. If the prophet, as

I predict that EVERY major power that exists today WILL be destroyed
in the future. Care to disprove me? Invalid.

: some people claim, has written the Quran, then he would have put
: his future in real jeopardy (50% chance) since neither satellite photos
: nor on-ground intelligence personnel were available to him at the
: revelation time. Further, numerous details about many natural
: phenomena were detailed in the Quran and, until recently, they
: were proven by experts to be amazingly accurate. For example of
: the physical development of the fetus inside the womb along with
: timing given by many verses matches exactly what leading
: authorities in Embryology are claiming to be recent discoveries.
: Moreover, verses that gives descriptions about the creation of
: the universe and the function of mountains in balancing earth

Balancing earth - yeah that is a good one. If you believe that
then may he help you.

: and many other descriptions/explanations are available to be read
: and to be understood. If the prophet was the author, wouldn't he be
: prone to make weak inferences similar to those who claim that
: earth is square and whoever says otherwise should be killed?

Oh, I didnt know that the Quran claimed that the earth was spherical.
This IS remarkable. I apologise for my ignorance. May I be allowed to ask
for a reference?

: The prophet also has demonstrated many supernatural miracles
: not by his own power, but by the power of the creator. He went to Jerusalem
: back in one night and gave a detailed description of the carnival that was
: traveling on that route and also specific accident happened to them at that
: night (in those days, it takes a month or so for a round-trip). In another
: occasion, he provided water for an entire army from a small plate between his
: hands. There are many other miracles that require serious truth
: seeker to read about and to think about it.
:
: From the above, it reasonable to conclude that the Quran is not the
: PROPHET CREATION. HE HAD NO WAY TO PREDICT ALL THESE EVENTS AND TO BE
: RIGHT ALL THE TIME, ESPECIALLY WHEN KNOWING THAT THE PROPHET HIMSELF
: WAS ILLITERATE !!!

Performing miracles is not proof that Quran is the word of God

: -----------------------------------------------end-forwarded-article---
:

: ----------------------------------------------------------------------

: Embryology and Life Sciences in Quran

: ----------------------------------------------------------------------

: --------------------------------------------------------------------

: Prof. Moore has said:

When? Where? Is he a Muslim? Was he one when he made the above
statement?

: Prof. Marshal Johnson, Professor and Chairman of the Department of

: Anatomy and Director of the Daniel Baugh Institute, Thomas Jefferson
: University, Philadelphia

: He says:

: "The Qur'an describes not only the development of external form but
: emphasizes also the internal stages -- the stages inside the embryo
: of its creation and development, emphasizing major events recognized
: by contemporary science.... If I were to transpose myself into that

: era, knowing what I know today and describing things, I could not

: describe the things that were described. I see no evidence to
: refute the concept that this individual Mohammed had to be developing this
: information from some place, so I see nothing in conflict with the
: concept that Divine Intervention was involved...."

Not one fact. The whole para is opinion.

: --------------------------------------------------------------------

: To receive a copy of the article that Moore wrote about
: 'Highlights of Human Embryology in the Koran and Hadith'

: please e-mail me at ad...@netcom.com

: ---------------------------------------------------------------------

: That leaves us to our third option: God wrote it !

Yeah, whatever you say. Since we are appealing to the unnatural here
is God the only being for which all of the above proofs would be valid,
assuming mythology to be true. Is God the only being of that time who had
all the knowledge that is put forth as proof? Please think.

: May Allah Guide Us All to Straight Path. Ameen.

: QURAN: Chapter 4, Verse 82:

: "Do they not consider (ponder) on the Quran?
: If it had been from anyone except Allah, they
: would surely have found in it much
: discrepancy (contradictions)."

Why? Many other people besides God are capable of a work of that
length without a contradiction.

: ALLAH CHALLENGES:

: Still unsure or doubtful ? Quran is the word of Allah.
: Allah challenges to His creations:

: Chapter 2, Verses 23 & 24

: 2: 23. "And if you are in doubt as to what We have revealed
: to our servant, Then produce a Chapter like thereunto;
: And call your witnesses or helpers besides Allah, If
: you are true."

Please DO NOT REPEAT what you have already said. I have the suspicion
that you are stringing together posts to stifle arguments with volume.

: 2: 24. "But if you cannot, and surely you cannot, Then fear
: the fire Whose fuel is men and stones, Which is prepared
: for those who reject."

"And surely you cannot" is not indicative of receptiveness to
argument.

: Try reading and understanding the meaning with explanation of the following
: verses also !

: Chapter 10, verse 38
: Chapter 11, verse 13
: Chapter 17 verse 88

Ok, will do.

: Wa salamo alaykum,

: May Allah Guide Us All to Straight Path. Ameen.

: Below are some more verses (among many) that any intellectual
: individual would be surprised to see in a 7th century text. A text
: first given to desert Arabs, who couldn't read or write, let alone
: do Astronomical observations. This further adds to the proof
: of Quran being simply not from any human source.
: It is simply impossible that Arabs, or Mohammad [peace on him]
: of 7th century could possess such advanced knowledge of science
: which humanity has learned in the 20th century.

: ==========================================================================

: (21:30-33)
: Have not the people, who have disbelieved (the Message),
: ever considered this: the heavens and the earth were at
: first one mass; then We parted them [1], and created

Why are heaven and earth the most important entities. If, as I presume,
you are trying to suggest the Big Bang in the above, fine. But it implies
that the one mass was not God's creation. Omnipotence does not hold then.

: every living thing from water [2] ? Do they not

This is precisely what a 7th century person would write.

: acknowledge (that this is Our Creation?) And We
: set mountains firmly in the earth lest it should tilt to
: one side along with them [3], and We left therein open

Highly scientific. Spheres tilt? Show me one that does.
But you will counter to tell me that the earth is not PRECISELY a sphere.
Well, in that case, you will be astounded to know that the earth DOES
tilt. Ever gone to school and been told what causes summer and winter?

: paths [4], so that they may find their way [4].

: And We made the sky a safe canopy [5], but in spite of this

Last I checked, canopy meant cover, which precisely the sky is NOT.
There is no cover. But, of course, the Arabic term....

: they do not pay due heed to its signs . And
: it is Allah, Who has made the night and the day and
: created the sun and the moon; all of them are
: floating, each in its own orbit [6]

Orbit. And of course, by orbits, it was meant that they werwe
elliptic and that the body being orbited around was a one of the foci and
that the rate of coverage of area was constant. I am sure the Arabic term
for "orbit" implies all that.

: [1] From the word of the Text, it appears that at first
: the whole universe was a single mass of matter; then it
: was split into different parts and the earth and the other
: heavenly bodies were formed.

: [2] From the word of the Text, it appears that Allah made water
: the cause and origin of life.

: [3] This shows that the real function of mountains is to regulate
: the motion and speed of the Earth. We have come to this
: conclusion for the Quran has made this benefit of
: mountains very prominent in many places. Therefore, their other
: benefits should be regarded as incidental.

Now, really.

: [4] "Open paths" are the passes between high mountains and the
: valleys and ravines made by the rivers in the mountains regions
: and other natural ways that connect different regions on the
: earth.

: [5] This is a very meaningful sentence. It may mean that the people
: may find paths for travelling on the earth, and it may also mean
: that the wisdom that underlies the skill and the system of
: their creation may guide them to the Reality.

: [6] That is, "Those signs which are in the sky".

As for the rest of this post, they are articles that
you have posted already and are in the same vein. I will take the
advice of the gentleman whose post you have enclosed.

: reading this post, please ask yourself whether you are a honest truth
: seeker or just another argumentative person, if the former, continue,
: otherwise, save your time and jump to the next post.

If you are the former, you might have been convinced to at
least have an objective look at the rest of your post yourself. If not
I am wasting my time.

Good luck.

--
Himanshu

[Arun Gupta]

Muslim <ad...@netcom.com> wrote:
>
>Hadith is invalid if it contradicts QURAN. (Not Science).
>Our criterion is the Quran, the absolute truth. We Muslims
>judge everything with Quran.

Historically, that is not the case. Hadith were collected
and judged valid or invalid based on demonstrated chains
of transmission from the Prophet, and a judgment of the reliability
and honesty of each person on that transmission. Comparison against
the Quran was not a criterion. (If you think about it, it could
not be. For example, the Quran has "later" verses which override
provisions from "earlier" verses; and "earlier" or "later" --
the order of revelation -- comes from tradition, and is not
self-evident from the Quran itself. )

-arun gupta

[Thomas L. Billings]

In article <31F93C...@rain.org>, Sal Schettino <sa...@rain.org> wrote:

> I the U.S and other places in the world science is taking genes from
> animals,plants,insects and viruses and mixing them together and I was
> wondering is there any one beside me does not want these folks to mix up

> the clean with the unclean. One Example: They are taking human genes

> putting them in a pig so that someday they will be able to put them in
> man if he needs blood or organs .People are releasing gene altered life
> now as we speak and I was woundering what religious leaders have to say
> about genetic engeneering.
>

> This is my reasoning:
> You response shows me that it's true and its going to happen. So they
> are
> taking things that are clean and making them unclean and releasing them
> into

> the world. What kosher religious leaders in the Jewish community are you

> talking to that say its ok to put pork genes in plants and animals we
> eat.

Since many of the same genes are in pigs, indeed all mammals, as are in
humans, this is hardly making something "clean" into "unclean". Take a
look at the percentage of genetic correspondence between humans and other
animals. You've even got some small percentage of the same genes as a
paramecium, if I remember correctly.

> What true Muslim group are you talking to that doesn't mind a little
> pork
> gene in the beef or plants he eats and what vegetarian community like
> the

> idea of putting animal genes in plant we eat. So you talked to the

> Jewish
> and Muslim community . Who gave you the ok in those communities?

Who in those communities should have ANY say in what scientists and
engineers can do in areas outside of the divine doctrine those particular
religious communities follow? This does not concern their area of
expertise or even competence for the most part.

If they don't like those materials, then they should simply be on the
lookout for gengineered products and avoid them. The rest of us can enjoy
the benefits as we choose. Some people already won't touch food without
some "organically grown" label on it. The behavior would just be an
extension of that sort of thing.

Beyond this type of thing we would get into scriptural literalist
religious groups limiting science and technology in ways that would do
great damage to the continuing industrial revolution, and to the benefits
it can provide for so many.

Regards,

Tom Billings

--
Institute for Teleoperated Space Development
it...@teleport.com(Tom Billings)
ITSD's web site is at, http://www.teleport.com/~itsd1/index.html

[Hallaj]

macan <ma...@pop-box.mcgill.ca> wrote:

>Hallaj wrote:
>>
>> ad...@netcom.com (Muslim) wrote:
>>

>> >The Source of the Constituents of Animal Milk
>> >----------------------------------------------
>>

>> The article is deleted...
>>
>> Dear Mr. Muslim and all who countribute in this thread!

>>
>> This thread has been on in several weeks now and as I observe none of
>> users of soc.culture.iranian has taken part in this discussion. Most

>>Snip

>> we would be gratful if you respectful people delete soc.culture.iranian

>> from the address box when you reply to this and other similar threads.
>>
>> Sallam and peace
>>
>> Hallaj

>You do not have to read them.

I decide myself what shall i read or not read I do not need you
telling me what do read.

> And you shall stop assuming to be the
>reperesentative of all living Iranians.

I have not such assumption and I have not said it. If you take time
and read my article it does not imply it. All I asked was to make the
discussion where it is really belong to but you are not capable to
answer that part of my post. I repeat the question one more time: What
is erong with discussing subjects related to Islam in an Islamic
newsgroup?

If we shall take all these discussion everywhere then what is the use
of several Islamic newsgroup?

>Selam (not sallam).
My intention by writing "Sallam" here was to send my regards to all
who were subjected by my article not asking a teacher to check it's
spelling. BTW, if you are a teacher I am very sorry for your children
because you are a very bad teacher. SALLAM is right such as I write
not like you "Selam"!!!!

Go and learn how should you spell Sallam and then reply to my post!
>Dervish.

[Jochen Katz]

In article <4telvn$l...@ssbunews.ih.lucent.com>, en...@ihgp1.ih.att.com (-Surensoy,E.) writes:
>
> If a person claims that Islam vs Christianity vs Judaism vs
> you name it is not a "clash of civilizations", he either is
> trying to make a fool out of you or himself. If really there
> were no such "clash of civilizations", there would never be
> a need or reason to invent the three Abrahamic religions which
> are fundamentally identical to each other.

I agree that there is also much clash of civilization which goes on under
the name of religion. But 'religion' and 'culture' are not identical.

And the above comment only shows that you have not studied Judaism, Christianity
and Islam in any depth. There are worlds between them. The similarities between
Christianity and Islam are there but they are superficial, in the core they
have a very different understanding of just about everything, the nature of God,
the nature of sin, the nature of man, the nature of salvation. What can be
more central to any religion?

Jochen Katz

http://www.math.gatech.edu/~jkatz/Islam/

[Kambiz Iranpour]

In article <4telvn$l...@ssbunews.ih.lucent.com>, en...@ihgp1.ih.att.com
(-Surensoy,E.) writes:

|>
|> If a person claims that Islam vs Christianity vs Judaism vs
|> you name it is not a "clash of civilizations", he either is
|> trying to make a fool out of you or himself. If really there
|> were no such "clash of civilizations", there would never be
|> a need or reason to invent the three Abrahamic religions which
|> are fundamentally identical to each other.
|>
|>

Well, Huntington's socalled "clash of civilization is very
popular with those in the West who are trying to highten the
tension and find a new enemy. As I wrote John L. Esposito's
book "The Islamic threat Myth or Reality ?" challenges this
theory eloquently.

Best regards
Kambiz Iranpour

[Muslim]

naut...@cs.washington.edu (Himanshu Nautiyal) writes:
> The purpose of religion is to help humans overcome fears while
>they are too immature to do so on their own strength. Sort of like
>telling a child that there is a fairy godmother looking out for her.
> Once we have grown enough to not need this crutch, we should
>get rid of it fast to retain rationality.

Islam is not a religion. Its a deen. Deen in Arabic means

a complete belief system, and a way of life, which
also includes social, economic, and political system.

> The kind of stretching you are putting the words of the

>Quran to ("smoke" means "nebulae", of course, how can anyone be
>stupid enough to doubt that) to say that God put everything in the
>Quran, does not indicate an open mind or receptivity to argument.
>Still I will try.

The above is a classical example of ignorance of Quran, and
shows how much you need to learn and understand Islam,
before talking about it. Smoke doesn't mean Nebulae,
how can anyone be stupid enough to think that ?
Arabic word 'shuwaz' and 'nuhas' are roughly translated to mean
"smoke", because there's no equivalent in English language.
The word shuwas as used in the original means the pure smokeless
flame, and nuhas is the gross smoke without a flame.
By "smoke" is implied the initial and primary stages of matter,

in which it lay diffused in space in a shapeless, dustlike
condition before the formation of the universe. Scientists
of the modern age describe the same thing as nebulae, and
the same also is their view about the beginning of the universe,
that is, before creation the matter of which the universe
was built lay diffused in smoke-like nebulous form.

> Suppose, I came across this one sentence scripture -
>"You will find out the truth" and that is it. So, when we make any
>discovery, it is only a fulfilment of God's words and if we dont,
>well he didnt say when, so just have faith and wait. Each and every
>occurrence in the world can be moulded to fit that sentence, either
>as a corroboration or at least neutralized as certainly not a
>contradiction of it.

The same is not true of Quran. In fact, Quran has challenged
manking to prove it wrong:
1) To come up with something like it (or better)
That is, write even chapter like the Quran if you
can, and call all your helpers and experts.
2) Find any contradictions in it.

Also, in order for a Muslim to take Quran as the word of Creator,

one must (after proving the Existence of Creator (God, Allah)
prove oneself that Quran is not a book authored by any human.
In other words, "Who wrote Quran"?
If you say Arabs wrote it, or Muhammad [pbuh] wrote it,
then you have to prove that that is in fact true.

3 Allah (GOD)

At no other time, in the history

of Arabic language, had it ever achieved its peak in expression,
literature, and development, than the time of Arabia during the 6th Century,
the time when Quran was being revealed. At no other time in the history
of Arabic language had the language ever achieved its highest potential
than the time of Arabia during the 6th Century, the time when Quran was
being revealed. The language reached its peak in richness, artistic
value, and poetry, during that time. With the Arabic language at its
peak, and the best of Arabic writers, poets present in Arabia, it is
impossible that a non-Arabic speaking entity would write a book like
Quran and have such a dynamite impact on the Arabs!

So only an Arabic speaking entity could have write Quran. With that in mind,

we're left with three choices:

1 - the Arabs wrote it

2 - Mohammad (pbuh) wrote it

3 - Allah (swt) wrote it

Lets examine the three choices one by one.

(1) Arabs Wrote it ?
---------------------

What Quran teaches goes DIRECTLY against the pagan Arab culture,
religion, and gods, that existed before the Quran was revealed.
Quran condemns idol worshiping, but the Arabs, loved their idol
gods, and worshiped them regularly. Quran raised the status
of women; the Arabs treated women next to animals. The Arabs

would never write something that goes against their most important
belief of idol worshiping. Quran goes against most of the
social habits (such as backbiting, slandering, name calling,
etc) which the Arabs were heavily indulged into. For example, the

Arabs would call insulting nicknames such as Abu Jahal (the father
of ignorance). Quran condemns and prohibits taking interest on money,
whereas, the Arabs freely levied heavy interest rates in loans
and businesses. Quran condemns and prohibits Alcohol drinking, whereas,
the Arabs consumed alcohol freely. The Quran condemns and prohibits
gambling, whereas, the Arabs were some of the worst gamblers.
The Arabs would never write something so comprehensively against just
about all of their customs and culture and religious beliefs, as the
Quran is.

During the time of the Holy Prophet (pbuh), the Arabs would indulge

in all the social habits that the Quran condemns and prohibits. How
can Arabs then write something that would negate their entire society's
norms and ideologies ?

Did a group of Arabs or an individual Arab write Quran?

Perhaps a rebel Arab beduoin, or a society's misfit, or someone with
different ideals and norms decided one day to write Quran?

The answer to those questions are also 'no'. Because, if we read Quran,
we notice that there is no author ! No individual has his/her name
written on the cover of Quran! Any time an individual writes a book, he/she
writes his/her name on the cover. The author's name always appears on
his/her book, and there is always an author who is credited for writing
that book. No one in the history of the world has EVER claimed to have
written the Quran, nor anyone's name ever appeared in front of the Quran
as being the 'author'. This is the only book in the world without an
author. No one in the world has ever been accused of writing the Holy
Quran, except the Prophet Mohammad (peace be upon him), by non-muslims.

Quran has no author, and no group or individual in Arabia ever

claimed to have written it, nor any group or an individual recited, taught,
and explained Quran except the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) and his followers.
The Prophet Mohammad (peace be upon him) was the only Arabian who first
practiced, explained, and preached Quran, and ended up making
a lot of Arab tribes enemies. Any historian, Muslim or non-Muslim would argue
that the only possible source of Quran can be the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh),
the man responsible to recite it, teach it, and explain it to the
people of Arabia. In fact, many historians today still think that
only Mohammad (pbuh) could possibly have written it.

This leads one to conclude that the Prophet (pbuh) must have written it !

(2) Mohammad (pbuh) wrote it ?
------------------------------

First, he was illiterate !! How can an illiterate person come up
with such a rich, poetic, intellectual, and inspiring
text that it rocked the entire Arabia ?

Mohammad (pbuh) never went to school ! No one taught him.

He had no teacher of any kind in any subjects. How can he have
the knowledge of all the science, astronomy, oceanography, etc
that is contained in the Quran ? ( For example, the mention of

ocean currents, stars, earth, moon, sun and their fixed paths

in Soorah Rahman; and many other scientific statements that are
found in Quran, that I cannot state in this short article)

When Quran was revealed, the Arabic language was at its peak in richness,

poetic value, literature, etc. Quran came and challenged the best
literature in Arabic, the best poetry in Arabic of the time.
Mohammad (pbuh) being illiterate couldn't possibly have come up with something
so immaculate that it even exceeded the best of poetry, and literature
in Arabic at the time of the language's PEAK development.
Arabic language had never been so rich in expression, poetic value,
vocabulary, and variety in literature, as it was in the time of Quran.
At a time like this, Quran came and exceeded the best of Arabic in
all aspects of the language: poetry, literature, expression, etc.
Any classical Arabic speaker would appreciate the unbeaten, unchallenged,
and unmatched beauty of the language of Quran.

An illiterate man is simply not capable of writing such a book.

Mohammad (pbuh) had no reason to come up with something like Quran, and

cause the entire society of Arabia to become his enemy. Why would he
do something like that? Why would he write something going against
almost all of the norms of the society, and lose his family, relatives,
friends, and other loved ones , and not to mention all the wealth he
lost ?

Quran was revealed over a period of 23 years ! A very long time!
Is it possible for someone to maintain the same exact style of
Arabic speech , as demonstrated in Quran, for over 23 years ?

Also, what the prophet Mohammad (saaw) used to say is recorded in what

we call his hadeeth (sunnah). If we look at the Arabic style of the
hadeeth, and compare it with the style of Quran, we can clearly see
that they are clearly DIFFERENT, and DISTINGUISHABLE Arabic styles.
The prophet (saaw) spoke in public. It does not make sense that a
man has two UNIQUE, Distinguishable, and completely different styles
of speech in public. Yet another reason why Mohammad (saaw) couldn't
possibly have written Quran.

Quran was revealed over a period of 23 years ! A very long time!

Is it possible for someone to maintain the same exact style of
Arabic speech , as demonstrated in Quran over 23 years ?

Here's what our famous Muslim Scholar, Ahmad Deedat said:

[From Ahmed Deedat]

SARAH AND HAGAR

SURA MARYAM

Another Muslim writes:

-----------------------------------------------------FORWARDED ARTICLE---

From: Abu Abdullah;
Subject: Re: Mohammad Wrote the Quran ?? [KORAN]
Date: Sat, 05 Aug 95 12:44:14 EDT
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

I was reading about the charge that the prophet, Mohammed (pbuh),
has written the Quran himself. Before you go any further in
reading this post, please ask yourself whether you are a honest truth
seeker or just another argumentative person, if the former, continue,
otherwise, save your time and jump to the next post.

Islam is based on faith that is supported by a number of strong
miracles such as knowing what events to take place ahead of time or
coming up with supernatural deeds in front of people. The holy Quran
has these signs and much more. First, The holy Quran predicted many
events to take place ahead of the time of the revelation of that verse;
for example, predicting the destruction of Persian empire at a time where
the later had a monumental victory over Rome. If the prophet, as

some people claim, has written the Quran, then he would have put
his future in real jeopardy (50% chance) since neither satellite photos
nor on-ground intelligence personnel were available to him at the
revelation time. Further, numerous details about many natural
phenomena were detailed in the Quran and, until recently, they
were proven by experts to be amazingly accurate. For example of
the physical development of the fetus inside the womb along with
timing given by many verses matches exactly what leading
authorities in Embryology are claiming to be recent discoveries.
Moreover, verses that gives descriptions about the creation of
the universe and the function of mountains in balancing earth

and many other descriptions/explanations are available to be read
and to be understood. If the prophet was the author, wouldn't he be
prone to make weak inferences similar to those who claim that
earth is square and whoever says otherwise should be killed?

The prophet also has demonstrated many supernatural miracles
not by his own power, but by the power of the creator. He went to Jerusalem
back in one night and gave a detailed description of the carnival that was
traveling on that route and also specific accident happened to them at that
night (in those days, it takes a month or so for a round-trip). In another
occasion, he provided water for an entire army from a small plate between his
hands. There are many other miracles that require serious truth
seeker to read about and to think about it.

From the above, it reasonable to conclude that the Quran is not the
PROPHET CREATION. HE HAD NO WAY TO PREDICT ALL THESE EVENTS AND TO BE
RIGHT ALL THE TIME, ESPECIALLY WHEN KNOWING THAT THE PROPHET HIMSELF
WAS ILLITERATE !!!

-----------------------------------------------end-forwarded-article---

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Prof. Moore has said:

Prof. Marshal Johnson, Professor and Chairman of the Department of
Anatomy and Director of the Daniel Baugh Institute, Thomas Jefferson
University, Philadelphia

He says:

"The Qur'an describes not only the development of external form but
emphasizes also the internal stages -- the stages inside the embryo
of its creation and development, emphasizing major events recognized
by contemporary science.... If I were to transpose myself into that
era, knowing what I know today and describing things, I could not
describe the things that were described. I see no evidence to
refute the concept that this individual Mohammed had to be developing this
information from some place, so I see nothing in conflict with the
concept that Divine Intervention was involved...."

--------------------------------------------------------------------

To receive a copy of the article that Moore wrote about
'Highlights of Human Embryology in the Koran and Hadith'
please e-mail me at ad...@netcom.com

---------------------------------------------------------------------

That leaves us to our third option: God wrote it !

May Allah Guide Us All to Straight Path. Ameen.

QURAN: Chapter 4, Verse 82:

"Do they not consider (ponder) on the Quran?
If it had been from anyone except Allah, they
would surely have found in it much
discrepancy (contradictions)."

ALLAH CHALLENGES:

Still unsure or doubtful ? Quran is the word of Allah.
Allah challenges to His creations:

Chapter 2, Verses 23 & 24

2: 23. "And if you are in doubt as to what We have revealed
to our servant, Then produce a Chapter like thereunto;
And call your witnesses or helpers besides Allah, If
you are true."

2: 24. "But if you cannot, and surely you cannot, Then fear

the fire Whose fuel is men and stones, Which is prepared
for those who reject."

Try reading and understanding the meaning with explanation of the following
verses also !

Chapter 10, verse 38
Chapter 11, verse 13
Chapter 17 verse 88

Wa salamo alaykum,

May Allah Guide Us All to Straight Path. Ameen.

Below are some more verses (among many) that any intellectual
individual would be surprised to see in a 7th century text. A text
first given to desert Arabs, who couldn't read or write, let alone
do Astronomical observations. This further adds to the proof
of Quran being simply not from any human source.
It is simply impossible that Arabs, or Mohammad [peace on him]
of 7th century could possess such advanced knowledge of science
which humanity has learned in the 20th century.

==========================================================================

(21:30-33)
Have not the people, who have disbelieved (the Message),
ever considered this: the heavens and the earth were at
first one mass; then We parted them [1], and created

every living thing from water [2] ? Do they not

acknowledge (that this is Our Creation?) And We
set mountains firmly in the earth lest it should tilt to
one side along with them [3], and We left therein open

paths [4], so that they may find their way [4].
And We made the sky a safe canopy [5], but in spite of this

they do not pay due heed to its signs . And
it is Allah, Who has made the night and the day and
created the sun and the moon; all of them are
floating, each in its own orbit [6]

[1] From the word of the Text, it appears that at first
the whole universe was a single mass of matter; then it
was split into different parts and the earth and the other
heavenly bodies were formed.

[2] From the word of the Text, it appears that Allah made water
the cause and origin of life.

[3] This shows that the real function of mountains is to regulate
the motion and speed of the Earth. We have come to this
conclusion for the Quran has made this benefit of
mountains very prominent in many places. Therefore, their other
benefits should be regarded as incidental.

[4] "Open paths" are the passes between high mountains and the
valleys and ravines made by the rivers in the mountains regions
and other natural ways that connect different regions on the
earth.

[5] This is a very meaningful sentence. It may mean that the people
may find paths for travelling on the earth, and it may also mean
that the wisdom that underlies the skill and the system of
their creation may guide them to the Reality.

[6] That is, "Those signs which are in the sky".

==========================================================================
Translations/Explanations from Maududi's Tafseer.
==========================================================================
::::::::::::::
51.47
::::::::::::::
---------------------------------------------------------------------

QURAN: The Universe is Expanding
----------------------------------------------

The following is a verse of the Quran (51:47) where
God is speaking, may perhaps be compared with modern ideas:

"The heaven, We have built it with power. Verily,
We are expanding it."
Quran, 51:47

'Heaven' is the translation of the Arabic word 'sama' and this is
exactly the extra-terrestrial world that is meant.

'We are expanding it' is the translation of the plural present
participate musi'una of the verb ausa'a meaning 'to make wider,
more spacious, to extend, to expand'.

Some translators were unable to grasp the meaning of the
latter provide translations that appear to me to be mistaken,
e.g. "we give generously" (R. Blachere). Others sense the
meaning, but are afraid to commit themselves: Hamidullah in his
translation of the Quran talks of the widening of the heavens
and space, but he includes a question mark. Finally, there are
those who arm themselves with authorized scientific opinion in
their commentaries and give the meaning stated here. This is
true in the case of the Muntakab, a book of commentaries edited
by the Supreme Council for Islamic Affairs, Cairo. It refers
to the expansion of the Universe in totally unambiguous terms.

Taken from:
Maurice Bucaille
The Bible The Quran And Science
'La Bible, le Coran et la Science'

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

::::::::::::::
35.13
36.38
::::::::::::::
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Final Destination of the Sun
-----------------------------

"(God) subjected the sun and the moon: each one runs
its course to an appointed term."
Quran,35:13

"The Sun runs its course to a settled place. This is the
decree of the All Mighty, the Full of Knowledge."
Quran,36:38

"Settled place" is the translation of the word 'mustaqarr' and
there can be no doubt that the idea of an exact place is
attached to it.

How do these statements fare when compared with data
established by modern science?
^^^^^^^^

The Quran gives an end to the Sun for its evolution and a
destination place. It also provides the Moon with a settled place.
To understand the possible meanings of these statements, we must
remember what modern knowledge has to say about the evolution of
the stars in general and the Sun in particular, and (by extension)
the celestial bodies that automatically followed its movement
through space, among them the Moon.

The Sun is a star that is roughly 4.5 billion years old,
according to experts in astrophysics. It is possible to
distinguish a stage in its evolution, as one can for all the
stars. At present, the Sun is at an early stage, characterized
by the transformation of hydrogen atoms into helium atoms.
Theoretically, this present stage should last another 5.5
billion years according to calculations that allow a total of 10
billion years for the duration of the primary stage in a star of
this kind. It has already been shown, in the case of these other
stars, that this stage gives way to a second period characterized
by the completion of the transformation of hydrogen into helium,
with the resulting expansion of its external layers and the cooling of the
Sun. In the final stage, its light is greatly diminished and
density considerably increased; this is to be observed in the type
of star known as a 'white dwarf'.

The above dates are only of interest in as far as they give
a rough estimate of the time factor involved, what is worth
remembering and is really the main point of the above, is the
notion of an evolution. Modern data allow us to predict that,
in a few billion years, the conditions prevailing in the solar
system will not be the same as they are today. Like other stars
whose transformations have been recorded until they reached their
final stage, it is possible to predict an end to the Sun.

The second verse quoted above (36:38) referred to
the Sun running its course towards a place of its own.

Modern astronomy has been able to locate it exactly and
has even given it a name, the Solar Apex: the solar system is
indeed evolving in space towards a point situated in the
Constellation of Hercules (alpha lyrae) whose exact location
is firmly established; it is moving at a speed already ascertained
at something in the region of 12 miles per second.

All these astronomical data deserve to be mentioned in the
relation to the two verses in Quran, since it is possible to
state that they appear to agree perfectly with modern scientific data.

Taken From:
Maurice Bucaille
The Bible The Quran And Science
'La Bible, le coran et la Science'
==========================================================================
::::::::::::::
36.40
::::::::::::::
----------------------------------------------------------------------

QURAN: Orbits Are Set for The Sun and The Moon
-------------------------------------------------

"The sun must not catch up the moon, nor does the night
outstrip the day. Each one is travelling in an orbit
with its own motion." Quran,36:40

"(God is) the One Who created the night, the day, the sun and
the moon. Each one is travelling in an orbit with its own
motion." Quran,21:33

Here an essential fact is clearly stated: the existence of the
Sun's and Moon's orbits, plus a reference is made to the traveling
of these bodies in space with their own motion.

A NEGATIVE fact also emerges from a reading of these verses:
it is shown that the Sun moves in an orbit, but no indication is
given as to what this orbit might be in relation to the Earth. At
the time of the Quranic Revelation, it was thought that the Sun
moved while the Earth stood still.

The Arabic word 'falak' has here been translated by the
word 'orbit'; many French translators of the Quran attach to it
the meaning of a 'sphere'. This is indeed its initial sense.
Hamidullah translates it by the word 'orbit'.

The word caused concern to older translators of the Quran
who were unable to imagine the circular course of the Moon and the
Sun and therefore retained images of their course through space
that were either more or less correct, or hopelessly wrong.
Si Hamza Boubekeur in his translation of the Quran cites the
diversity of interpretations given to it: "A sort of axle,
like an iron rod, that a mill turns around; a celestial sphere,
orbit, sign of the zodiac, speed, wave...", but he adds the
following observation made by Tabari, the famous Tenth century
commentator: "It is our duty to keep silent when we do not
know." (XVII, 15). This shows just how incapable men were of
understanding about this concept of the Sun's and Moons'
orbit. It is obvious that if the word had expressed an
astronomical concept common in Muhammad's day, it would not have been

so difficult to interpret these verses. A new concept therefore
existed in the Quran that was not to be explained until centuries
later.

Taken From:
Maurice Brucaille
The Bible The Quran And Science
La Bible le Coran et la science
----------------------------------------------------------------------
::::::::::::::
55.33
::::::::::::::

---------------------------------------------------------------------

"O assembly of Jinns (spirits) and Men, if you can penetrate
regions of the heavens and the earth, then penetrate!
You will not be able to penetrate them except with a
Power. So O Jinn and men, which of your Lord's
powers will you deny? If you try to escape, a flame
of fire and smoke shall be let loose upon you, which you
will not be able to withstand." Quran 55:33-36

Commentary & Analysis:

The word "if" expresses in English a condition that is
dependent upon a possibility AND either an achievable or
an unachievable hypothesis. Arabic is a language which
is able to introduce a nuance into the condition which is
much more explicit. There is one word to express the
possibility (ida), another for the achievable hypothesis
(in), and a third for the unachievable hypothesis
expresed by the word 'lau'. The verse in question
has it as an achievable hypothesis expressed by the word
'in'. The Quran therefore suggests the material
possibility of a concrete realization. This subtle
linguistic distinction formally rules out the purely
mystic interpretation that some people have (quiet wrongly)
put on this verse.

God is addressing the spirits (jinn) and humans (ins),
and not essentially allegorical figures.

To penetrate is the translation of the verb 'nafada'
followed by the preposition 'min'. According to
Kazimirski's dictionary, the phrase means 'to pass
right through and come out on the other side of a body'.
For example, an arrow that comes out on the other side.
It therefore suggests a deep penetration and emergence
at the other end into the regions in question.

The Power (sultan) these men will have to achieve this
enterprise would seem to come from the All-Mighty.

There can be no doubt that this verse indicates the
possibility men will one day achieve what we today
call (perhaps rather improperly) 'the conquest of
space.'. One must note that the text of Quran
predicts not only penetration through the regions
of the Heavens, but also the Earth, i.e. the exploration
of its depths.

The Arabic word 'shuwaz', as used in the original, means
the pure, smokeless flame, and 'nuhas' is the the gross
smoke without a flame. These two things, one after the
other, will be let loose upon the men and jinn, when
they try to penetrate the regions.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Explanation/Translations from:

'La Bible, le coran et la Science'
Maurice Bucaille
(The Bible, The Quran, And Science)

The Meaning of Quran
S. Abul A'la Maududi
------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Source of the Constituents of Animal Milk
----------------------------------------------

This is defined in the Quran in strict accordance with

QURAN 16:66:

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Taken from:

LA BIBLE, LE COARN ET LA SCIENCE
by Maurice Bucaille (A French Physician)

Translated from French by Alastair D. Pannel & The Author

(The Bible the Quran and Science)
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

>

> Do you see the absurdity? Such a scripture is true,
>but would anyone who presented a logical (yeah in precise first
>order logic) proof to show that all human knowledge is implied
>by the above statement be received with anything but a nervous
>smile and backward glances to check the nearest exit?

The only absurdity I see is in your reasoning and argument.
Quran never claimed, nor does it show all human knowlegdge.
Quran is not a book of knowledge, nor is it a book on
science, although it contains both in it. Quran is a book
whose subject is human, and it addresses primarily
human nature, and social behavior, and rights and duties
to one another, to society and etc.

>
> Basically, science and religion are opposite forces. You
>are perfectly entitled to your choice of one. But trying to reconcile
>the two will tie you up in knots. Because, science tells you NOT
>TO BELIEVE, but to ask to be CONVINCED, while religion does the
>converse. Of course, there is an interesting situation where people
>start believing in science. I think Asimov wrote an interesting
>story on this. Cant recall the title, something like "Levitation".
>But that is material for another thread.
>
>Himanshu

I became a Muslim as a direct result of studying proof of 'existence'
of a Creator, and the proof that Quran is from Allah only.
In Islam, a Muslim has to be a scientist to truely understand
the remarkable Quran. Many scientists have analyzed Quran's
verses on "science" and became Muslims. The usual scholars
of Islam, who often didn't understand the highly scientific
verses of Quran, were unable to comment and explain the verses.
It took scientists to understand and explain.
This is yet another sign, or proof, from God that the book
is indeed not man-made. More one understands Quran, more
one becomes convinced of its truth.

You're wrong again. I'm convinced that you do not know Islam
well enough. First of all, Islam is not a religion, nor
is it apart or opposite to science, or logic. In fact,
I find Islam to be inseparable from science and logic.
In Islam, one must be convinced of Allah, the Creator,
logically, and also be proved that Quran is in fact a book
from Allah, and not another man-made book.
Islam is built upon one basis, namely, the doctrine (Aqeeda)
which states that there is only one god, Allah,
Who is beyond the universe, man, and life, Who created
them all, Who created everything, Who created things out
of nothing and Who is consequently self-subsistent, i.e.
He is not created, otherwise He would not be a creator;
and as Allah is depicted as being the creator, it is
impossible that He be created. Thus, He is self-subsistent,
because all things depend for their existence on Him while
He does not depend on anything.

As for the need of things to be created by a creator, the
things which the mind comprehends are: man, life and
the universe; all are finite; and consequently they are
powerless, imperfect and in need of others. Man is
finite because in everything he grows to a certain limit
that he cannot surpass. Thus he is limited. Life is
finite because it manifests itself in individuals, and
it is observed to end in the individual, so it is limited.
The universe is finite because it is the sum of the celestial
planets, and each planet is finite, and the sum of finite things
is finite, thus the universe is limited. Therefore, man,
life and the universe are definitely finite. When one
ponders upon the finite one concludes that it is not eternal-
by definition- otherwise it would not be finite; and as such
it must have been created by someone other than that body.
This other body is the creator of man, life and universe.
This Creator is either created by someone else or He
is the creator of Himself or He is eternal, self-subsisting.
Clearly it is absolutely incorrect that He is created by
someone else, because if that was so He would be finite.
As for creating Himself, it is equally false, because if it
were so He would be simultaneously Creator and created
which is absurd. Hence, the Creator must be eternal,
self-subsistent. We call the Creator, Allah.

Notwithstanding this, every person with the capacity to think
can comprehend from the mere existence of things that they
have a Creator who created them, because one conceives
them to be imperfect, powerless and in need of others;
thus they are definitely created. Therefore, it is
sufficient to draw one's attention to anything in the
universe, man and life to deduce that there exists
a Creator, the Governor. Hence, looking at any planet
in the universe, contemplating on any phase of life, or
comprehending any aspect of man provides a conclusive
evidence for the existence of Allah. Accordingly, we
see that the Holy Quran draws attention to things and
calls man to ponder upon them, their surroundings, that
which is related to them, and to deduce from this existence
of Allah. Man observes how things are in need of other
things and concludes from this that there is definitely
the Creator, the Governor. Hundreds of Quranic verses
convey this understanding.

So let man consider from what he is created. He is
created from a gushing fluid. That issued from between
the loins and ribs. 86:5-7

Behold! In the creation of the Heavens and the earth,
and the alternation of night and day, there are indeed
signs for men of understanding. quran 3:190

And of His signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth,
and the difference of your languages and colors. Lo! Herein
indeed are portents for men of knowledge. 30:22

Will they not regard the camels, how they are created ?
And the heaven, how it is raised ! And the hills, how they
are set up ! And the earth, how it is spread! 88:17-20

Lo ! in the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the
difference of night and day, and the ships which run upon
the sea with that which is of use to men, and the water
which Allah sends down from the sky, thereby reviving the
earth after its death, and dispersing of all kinds of
beasts therein, and in the ordinance of the winds, and the
clouds obedient between heaven and earth; are signs (of Allah)
for people who have sense. 2:164

In addition to this, there are so many signs that summon man
to contemplate deeply upon things, their surroundings, and that
which is related to them; and to deduce from this the existence
of the Creator, the Governor, so that man's belief in Allah
be firmly fixed as it is derived from the intellect and
evidence.

Verily, belief in the Creator, the Governor, is instinctive
in everyone, but this instinctive belief comes via emotions,
a way which, on its own, produces neither reliable nor
fixed outcomes. the emotions often add untrue things
to one's belief due to conceiving untrue things as obligatory
attributes to what one believes in, thereby going astray and
falling into disbelief. Idolatry, superstitions and mythology
are the result of emotional belief. Therefore, so as not to
ascribe certain attributes contradicting the nature of divinity,
or to consider Allah incarnated in material substance, thus leading
to atheism or polytheism, or to fancies and superstitions, all of
which are renounced by true faith; Islam did not leave
the emotions as the sole way to belief. This is why it
compels the use of the mind with emotions, and obliges the muslim
to use his mind to believe in Allah and forbids imitation in the
creed. Hence, Islam has assigned the mind to be the arbiter of
belief in Allah.

Behold! In the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the
alternation of night and day, these are indeed signs for men
of understanding. 3:190

The call to look deeply in the universe to deduce its codes
and to be guided to the belief in its Creator is repeated
frequently in the Quran hundreds of times in different chapters;
all of which are directed to man's rational capacity,
inviting him to think deeply and to contemplate
so as to build his belief upon the mind and evidence, warning
him not to imitate what his forefathers were following without
reflecting, contemplating and conviction in being correct.
This is the faith Islam called for. It is the faith of
the enlightened assured person who looked and looked,
thought and thought, until he obtained by this process
of looking and thinking the conviction in the existence
of Allah the Omnipotent.

Although the use of the mind to arrive at the correct faith
in Allah is compulsory, man is unable to comprehend beyond his
senses and mental capacity, because man's mind, no matter how
it develops and grows, is limited in itself and its ability
with non-transgressable limits. Therefore, the mind's ability
to comprehend the nature of Allah, because He is beyond the
universe, man and life. As the human mind cannot comprehend
what is beyond man, it is unable to comprehend the essence of
Allah. Accordingly, one does not ask how does man believe
in Allah by his mind while his mind cannot comprehend the
essence of Allah, because ones belief is a belief in the
existence of Allah. This existence is comprehensible
through the existence of His creations, i.e. the universe,
man and life, all of which are comprehensible, because
they are within the bounds of the mind. Thus, man
comprehends them, and from this he comprehends the
existence of a creator of them who is Allah. Therefore
the belief in the existence of a Allah is rational and within
the realm of mind's potential. This is contrary to the
comprehension of the essence of Allah which is impossible,
as His essence is beyond the universe, man and life, in other
words, beyond the mind. The mind cannot comprehend
that which is beyond its limits, because of its
inability to do so. This deficiency, itself, should be
one of the factors that strengthens the belief and not a
source of suspicion and doubt.

Newsgroups: alt.religion.islam,soc.culture.iranian,soc.culture.arabic,soc.culture.pakistan.religion,alt.culture.saudi,alt.islam.sufi,soc.culture.malaysia,soc.culture.afghanistan,soc.culture.palestine,soc.culture.turkish,soc.history,soc.culture.indian,soc.

culture.pakistan
Subject: Re: ISLAM AND SCIENCE
Summary:
Expires:
References: <Dv87L...@beaver.cs.washington.edu>
Sender:
Followup-To:
Distribution:
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
Keywords:

naut...@cs.washington.edu (Himanshu Nautiyal) writes:
> The purpose of religion is to help humans overcome fears while
>they are too immature to do so on their own strength. Sort of like
>telling a child that there is a fairy godmother looking out for her.
> Once we have grown enough to not need this crutch, we should
>get rid of it fast to retain rationality.

Islam is not a religion. Its a deen. Deen in Arabic means

a complete belief system, and a way of life, which
also includes social, economic, and political system.

> The kind of stretching you are putting the words of the

>Quran to ("smoke" means "nebulae", of course, how can anyone be
>stupid enough to doubt that) to say that God put everything in the
>Quran, does not indicate an open mind or receptivity to argument.
>Still I will try.

The above is a classical example of ignorance of Quran, and
shows how much you need to learn and understand Islam,
before talking about it. Smoke doesn't mean Nebulae,
how can anyone be stupid enough to think that ?
Arabic word 'shuwaz' and 'nuhas' are roughly translated to mean
"smoke", because there's no equivalent in English language.
The word shuwas as used in the original means the pure smokeless
flame, and nuhas is the gross smoke without a flame.
By "smoke" is implied the initial and primary stages of matter,

in which it lay diffused in space in a shapeless, dustlike
condition before the formation of the universe. Scientists
of the modern age describe the same thing as nebulae, and
the same also is their view about the beginning of the universe,
that is, before creation the matter of which the universe
was built lay diffused in smoke-like nebulous form.

> Suppose, I came across this one sentence scripture -
>"You will find out the truth" and that is it. So, when we make any
>discovery, it is only a fulfilment of God's words and if we dont,
>well he didnt say when, so just have faith and wait. Each and every
>occurrence in the world can be moulded to fit that sentence, either
>as a corroboration or at least neutralized as certainly not a
>contradiction of it.

The same is not true of Quran. In fact, Quran has challenged
manking to prove it wrong:
1) To come up with something like it (or better)
That is, write even chapter like the Quran if you
can, and call all your helpers and experts.
2) Find any contradictions in it.

Also, in order for a Muslim to take Quran as the word of Creator,

one must (after proving the Existence of Creator (God, Allah)
prove oneself that Quran is not a book authored by any human.
In other words, "Who wrote Quran"?
If you say Arabs wrote it, or Muhammad [pbuh] wrote it,
then you have to prove that that is in fact true.

3 Allah (GOD)

At no other time, in the history

of Arabic language, had it ever achieved its peak in expression,
literature, and development, than the time of Arabia during the 6th Century,
the time when Quran was being revealed. At no other time in the history
of Arabic language had the language ever achieved its highest potential
than the time of Arabia during the 6th Century, the time when Quran was
being revealed. The language reached its peak in richness, artistic
value, and poetry, during that time. With the Arabic language at its
peak, and the best of Arabic writers, poets present in Arabia, it is
impossible that a non-Arabic speaking entity would write a book like
Quran and have such a dynamite impact on the Arabs!

So only an Arabic speaking entity could have write Quran. With that in mind,

we're left with three choices:

1 - the Arabs wrote it

2 - Mohammad (pbuh) wrote it

3 - Allah (swt) wrote it

Lets examine the three choices one by one.

(1) Arabs Wrote it ?
---------------------

What Quran teaches goes DIRECTLY against the pagan Arab culture,
religion, and gods, that existed before the Quran was revealed.
Quran condemns idol worshiping, but the Arabs, loved their idol
gods, and worshiped them regularly. Quran raised the status
of women; the Arabs treated women next to animals. The Arabs

would never write something that goes against their most important
belief of idol worshiping. Quran goes against most of the
social habits (such as backbiting, slandering, name calling,
etc) which the Arabs were heavily indulged into. For example, the

Arabs would call insulting nicknames such as Abu Jahal (the father
of ignorance). Quran condemns and prohibits taking interest on money,
whereas, the Arabs freely levied heavy interest rates in loans
and businesses. Quran condemns and prohibits Alcohol drinking, whereas,
the Arabs consumed alcohol freely. The Quran condemns and prohibits
gambling, whereas, the Arabs were some of the worst gamblers.
The Arabs would never write something so comprehensively against just
about all of their customs and culture and religious beliefs, as the
Quran is.

During the time of the Holy Prophet (pbuh), the Arabs would indulge

in all the social habits that the Quran condemns and prohibits. How
can Arabs then write something that would negate their entire society's
norms and ideologies ?

Did a group of Arabs or an individual Arab write Quran?

Perhaps a rebel Arab beduoin, or a society's misfit, or someone with
different ideals and norms decided one day to write Quran?

The answer to those questions are also 'no'. Because, if we read Quran,
we notice that there is no author ! No individual has his/her name
written on the cover of Quran! Any time an individual writes a book, he/she
writes his/her name on the cover. The author's name always appears on
his/her book, and there is always an author who is credited for writing
that book. No one in the history of the world has EVER claimed to have
written the Quran, nor anyone's name ever appeared in front of the Quran
as being the 'author'. This is the only book in the world without an
author. No one in the world has ever been accused of writing the Holy
Quran, except the Prophet Mohammad (peace be upon him), by non-muslims.

Quran has no author, and no group or individual in Arabia ever

claimed to have written it, nor any group or an individual recited, taught,
and explained Quran except the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) and his followers.
The Prophet Mohammad (peace be upon him) was the only Arabian who first
practiced, explained, and preached Quran, and ended up making
a lot of Arab tribes enemies. Any historian, Muslim or non-Muslim would argue
that the only possible source of Quran can be the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh),
the man responsible to recite it, teach it, and explain it to the
people of Arabia. In fact, many historians today still think that
only Mohammad (pbuh) could possibly have written it.

This leads one to conclude that the Prophet (pbuh) must have written it !

(2) Mohammad (pbuh) wrote it ?
------------------------------

First, he was illiterate !! How can an illiterate person come up
with such a rich, poetic, intellectual, and inspiring
text that it rocked the entire Arabia ?

Mohammad (pbuh) never went to school ! No one taught him.

He had no teacher of any kind in any subjects. How can he have
the knowledge of all the science, astronomy, oceanography, etc
that is contained in the Quran ? ( For example, the mention of

ocean currents, stars, earth, moon, sun and their fixed paths

in Soorah Rahman; and many other scientific statements that are
found in Quran, that I cannot state in this short article)

When Quran was revealed, the Arabic language was at its peak in richness,

poetic value, literature, etc. Quran came and challenged the best
literature in Arabic, the best poetry in Arabic of the time.
Mohammad (pbuh) being illiterate couldn't possibly have come up with something
so immaculate that it even exceeded the best of poetry, and literature
in Arabic at the time of the language's PEAK development.
Arabic language had never been so rich in expression, poetic value,
vocabulary, and variety in literature, as it was in the time of Quran.
At a time like this, Quran came and exceeded the best of Arabic in
all aspects of the language: poetry, literature, expression, etc.
Any classical Arabic speaker would appreciate the unbeaten, unchallenged,
and unmatched beauty of the language of Quran.

An illiterate man is simply not capable of writing such a book.

Mohammad (pbuh) had no reason to come up with something like Quran, and

cause the entire society of Arabia to become his enemy. Why would he
do something like that? Why would he write something going against
almost all of the norms of the society, and lose his family, relatives,
friends, and other loved ones , and not to mention all the wealth he
lost ?

Quran was revealed over a period of 23 years ! A very long time!
Is it possible for someone to maintain the same exact style of
Arabic speech , as demonstrated in Quran, for over 23 years ?

Also, what the prophet Mohammad (saaw) used to say is recorded in what

we call his hadeeth (sunnah). If we look at the Arabic style of the
hadeeth, and compare it with the style of Quran, we can clearly see
that they are clearly DIFFERENT, and DISTINGUISHABLE Arabic styles.
The prophet (saaw) spoke in public. It does not make sense that a
man has two UNIQUE, Distinguishable, and completely different styles
of speech in public. Yet another reason why Mohammad (saaw) couldn't
possibly have written Quran.

Quran was revealed over a period of 23 years ! A very long time!

Is it possible for someone to maintain the same exact style of
Arabic speech , as demonstrated in Quran over 23 years ?

Here's what our famous Muslim Scholar, Ahmad Deedat said:

[From Ahmed Deedat]

SARAH AND HAGAR

SURA MARYAM

Another Muslim writes:

-----------------------------------------------------FORWARDED ARTICLE---

From: Abu Abdullah;
Subject: Re: Mohammad Wrote the Quran ?? [KORAN]
Date: Sat, 05 Aug 95 12:44:14 EDT
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

I was reading about the charge that the prophet, Mohammed (pbuh),
has written the Quran himself. Before you go any further in
reading this post, please ask yourself whether you are a honest truth
seeker or just another argumentative person, if the former, continue,
otherwise, save your time and jump to the next post.

Islam is based on faith that is supported by a number of strong
miracles such as knowing what events to take place ahead of time or
coming up with supernatural deeds in front of people. The holy Quran
has these signs and much more. First, The holy Quran predicted many
events to take place ahead of the time of the revelation of that verse;
for example, predicting the destruction of Persian empire at a time where
the later had a monumental victory over Rome. If the prophet, as

some people claim, has written the Quran, then he would have put
his future in real jeopardy (50% chance) since neither satellite photos
nor on-ground intelligence personnel were available to him at the
revelation time. Further, numerous details about many natural
phenomena were detailed in the Quran and, until recently, they
were proven by experts to be amazingly accurate. For example of
the physical development of the fetus inside the womb along with
timing given by many verses matches exactly what leading
authorities in Embryology are claiming to be recent discoveries.
Moreover, verses that gives descriptions about the creation of
the universe and the function of mountains in balancing earth

and many other descriptions/explanations are available to be read
and to be understood. If the prophet was the author, wouldn't he be
prone to make weak inferences similar to those who claim that
earth is square and whoever says otherwise should be killed?

The prophet also has demonstrated many supernatural miracles
not by his own power, but by the power of the creator. He went to Jerusalem
back in one night and gave a detailed description of the carnival that was
traveling on that route and also specific accident happened to them at that
night (in those days, it takes a month or so for a round-trip). In another
occasion, he provided water for an entire army from a small plate between his
hands. There are many other miracles that require serious truth
seeker to read about and to think about it.

From the above, it reasonable to conclude that the Quran is not the
PROPHET CREATION. HE HAD NO WAY TO PREDICT ALL THESE EVENTS AND TO BE
RIGHT ALL THE TIME, ESPECIALLY WHEN KNOWING THAT THE PROPHET HIMSELF
WAS ILLITERATE !!!

-----------------------------------------------end-forwarded-article---

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Prof. Moore has said:

Prof. Marshal Johnson, Professor and Chairman of the Department of
Anatomy and Director of the Daniel Baugh Institute, Thomas Jefferson
University, Philadelphia

He says:

"The Qur'an describes not only the development of external form but
emphasizes also the internal stages -- the stages inside the embryo
of its creation and development, emphasizing major events recognized
by contemporary science.... If I were to transpose myself into that
era, knowing what I know today and describing things, I could not
describe the things that were described. I see no evidence to
refute the concept that this individual Mohammed had to be developing this
information from some place, so I see nothing in conflict with the
concept that Divine Intervention was involved...."

--------------------------------------------------------------------

To receive a copy of the article that Moore wrote about
'Highlights of Human Embryology in the Koran and Hadith'
please e-mail me at ad...@netcom.com

---------------------------------------------------------------------

That leaves us to our third option: God wrote it !

May Allah Guide Us All to Straight Path. Ameen.

QURAN: Chapter 4, Verse 82:

"Do they not consider (ponder) on the Quran?
If it had been from anyone except Allah, they
would surely have found in it much
discrepancy (contradictions)."

ALLAH CHALLENGES:

Still unsure or doubtful ? Quran is the word of Allah.
Allah challenges to His creations:

Chapter 2, Verses 23 & 24

2: 23. "And if you are in doubt as to what We have revealed
to our servant, Then produce a Chapter like thereunto;
And call your witnesses or helpers besides Allah, If
you are true."

2: 24. "But if you cannot, and surely you cannot, Then fear

the fire Whose fuel is men and stones, Which is prepared
for those who reject."

Try reading and understanding the meaning with explanation of the following
verses also !

Chapter 10, verse 38
Chapter 11, verse 13
Chapter 17 verse 88

Wa salamo alaykum,

May Allah Guide Us All to Straight Path. Ameen.

Below are some more verses (among many) that any intellectual
individual would be surprised to see in a 7th century text. A text
first given to desert Arabs, who couldn't read or write, let alone
do Astronomical observations. This further adds to the proof
of Quran being simply not from any human source.
It is simply impossible that Arabs, or Mohammad [peace on him]
of 7th century could possess such advanced knowledge of science
which humanity has learned in the 20th century.

==========================================================================

(21:30-33)
Have not the people, who have disbelieved (the Message),
ever considered this: the heavens and the earth were at
first one mass; then We parted them [1], and created

every living thing from water [2] ? Do they not

acknowledge (that this is Our Creation?) And We
set mountains firmly in the earth lest it should tilt to
one side along with them [3], and We left therein open

paths [4], so that they may find their way [4].
And We made the sky a safe canopy [5], but in spite of this

they do not pay due heed to its signs . And
it is Allah, Who has made the night and the day and
created the sun and the moon; all of them are
floating, each in its own orbit [6]

[1] From the word of the Text, it appears that at first
the whole universe was a single mass of matter; then it
was split into different parts and the earth and the other
heavenly bodies were formed.

[2] From the word of the Text, it appears that Allah made water
the cause and origin of life.

[3] This shows that the real function of mountains is to regulate
the motion and speed of the Earth. We have come to this
conclusion for the Quran has made this benefit of
mountains very prominent in many places. Therefore, their other
benefits should be regarded as incidental.

[4] "Open paths" are the passes between high mountains and the
valleys and ravines made by the rivers in the mountains regions
and other natural ways that connect different regions on the
earth.

[5] This is a very meaningful sentence. It may mean that the people
may find paths for travelling on the earth, and it may also mean
that the wisdom that underlies the skill and the system of
their creation may guide them to the Reality.

[6] That is, "Those signs which are in the sky".

==========================================================================
Translations/Explanations from Maududi's Tafseer.
==========================================================================
::::::::::::::
51.47
::::::::::::::
---------------------------------------------------------------------

QURAN: The Universe is Expanding
----------------------------------------------

The following is a verse of the Quran (51:47) where
God is speaking, may perhaps be compared with modern ideas:

"The heaven, We have built it with power. Verily,
We are expanding it."
Quran, 51:47

'Heaven' is the translation of the Arabic word 'sama' and this is
exactly the extra-terrestrial world that is meant.

'We are expanding it' is the translation of the plural present
participate musi'una of the verb ausa'a meaning 'to make wider,
more spacious, to extend, to expand'.

Some translators were unable to grasp the meaning of the
latter provide translations that appear to me to be mistaken,
e.g. "we give generously" (R. Blachere). Others sense the
meaning, but are afraid to commit themselves: Hamidullah in his
translation of the Quran talks of the widening of the heavens
and space, but he includes a question mark. Finally, there are
those who arm themselves with authorized scientific opinion in
their commentaries and give the meaning stated here. This is
true in the case of the Muntakab, a book of commentaries edited
by the Supreme Council for Islamic Affairs, Cairo. It refers
to the expansion of the Universe in totally unambiguous terms.

Taken from:
Maurice Bucaille
The Bible The Quran And Science
'La Bible, le Coran et la Science'

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

::::::::::::::
35.13
36.38
::::::::::::::
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Final Destination of the Sun
-----------------------------

"(God) subjected the sun and the moon: each one runs
its course to an appointed term."
Quran,35:13

"The Sun runs its course to a settled place. This is the
decree of the All Mighty, the Full of Knowledge."
Quran,36:38

"Settled place" is the translation of the word 'mustaqarr' and
there can be no doubt that the idea of an exact place is
attached to it.

How do these statements fare when compared with data
established by modern science?
^^^^^^^^

The Quran gives an end to the Sun for its evolution and a
destination place. It also provides the Moon with a settled place.
To understand the possible meanings of these statements, we must
remember what modern knowledge has to say about the evolution of
the stars in general and the Sun in particular, and (by extension)
the celestial bodies that automatically followed its movement
through space, among them the Moon.

The Sun is a star that is roughly 4.5 billion years old,
according to experts in astrophysics. It is possible to
distinguish a stage in its evolution, as one can for all the
stars. At present, the Sun is at an early stage, characterized
by the transformation of hydrogen atoms into helium atoms.
Theoretically, this present stage should last another 5.5
billion years according to calculations that allow a total of 10
billion years for the duration of the primary stage in a star of
this kind. It has already been shown, in the case of these other
stars, that this stage gives way to a second period characterized
by the completion of the transformation of hydrogen into helium,
with the resulting expansion of its external layers and the cooling of the
Sun. In the final stage, its light is greatly diminished and
density considerably increased; this is to be observed in the type
of star known as a 'white dwarf'.

The above dates are only of interest in as far as they give
a rough estimate of the time factor involved, what is worth
remembering and is really the main point of the above, is the
notion of an evolution. Modern data allow us to predict that,
in a few billion years, the conditions prevailing in the solar
system will not be the same as they are today. Like other stars
whose transformations have been recorded until they reached their
final stage, it is possible to predict an end to the Sun.

The second verse quoted above (36:38) referred to
the Sun running its course towards a place of its own.

Modern astronomy has been able to locate it exactly and
has even given it a name, the Solar Apex: the solar system is
indeed evolving in space towards a point situated in the
Constellation of Hercules (alpha lyrae) whose exact location
is firmly established; it is moving at a speed already ascertained
at something in the region of 12 miles per second.

All these astronomical data deserve to be mentioned in the
relation to the two verses in Quran, since it is possible to
state that they appear to agree perfectly with modern scientific data.

Taken From:
Maurice Bucaille
The Bible The Quran And Science
'La Bible, le coran et la Science'
==========================================================================
::::::::::::::
36.40
::::::::::::::
----------------------------------------------------------------------

QURAN: Orbits Are Set for The Sun and The Moon
-------------------------------------------------

"The sun must not catch up the moon, nor does the night
outstrip the day. Each one is travelling in an orbit
with its own motion." Quran,36:40

"(God is) the One Who created the night, the day, the sun and
the moon. Each one is travelling in an orbit with its own
motion." Quran,21:33

Here an essential fact is clearly stated: the existence of the
Sun's and Moon's orbits, plus a reference is made to the traveling
of these bodies in space with their own motion.

A NEGATIVE fact also emerges from a reading of these verses:
it is shown that the Sun moves in an orbit, but no indication is
given as to what this orbit might be in relation to the Earth. At
the time of the Quranic Revelation, it was thought that the Sun
moved while the Earth stood still.

The Arabic word 'falak' has here been translated by the
word 'orbit'; many French translators of the Quran attach to it
the meaning of a 'sphere'. This is indeed its initial sense.
Hamidullah translates it by the word 'orbit'.

The word caused concern to older translators of the Quran
who were unable to imagine the circular course of the Moon and the
Sun and therefore retained images of their course through space
that were either more or less correct, or hopelessly wrong.
Si Hamza Boubekeur in his translation of the Quran cites the
diversity of interpretations given to it: "A sort of axle,
like an iron rod, that a mill turns around; a celestial sphere,
orbit, sign of the zodiac, speed, wave...", but he adds the
following observation made by Tabari, the famous Tenth century
commentator: "It is our duty to keep silent when we do not
know." (XVII, 15). This shows just how incapable men were of
understanding about this concept of the Sun's and Moons'
orbit. It is obvious that if the word had expressed an
astronomical concept common in Muhammad's day, it would not have been

so difficult to interpret these verses. A new concept therefore
existed in the Quran that was not to be explained until centuries
later.

Taken From:
Maurice Brucaille
The Bible The Quran And Science
La Bible le Coran et la science
----------------------------------------------------------------------
::::::::::::::
55.33
::::::::::::::

---------------------------------------------------------------------

"O assembly of Jinns (spirits) and Men, if you can penetrate
regions of the heavens and the earth, then penetrate!
You will not be able to penetrate them except with a
Power. So O Jinn and men, which of your Lord's
powers will you deny? If you try to escape, a flame
of fire and smoke shall be let loose upon you, which you
will not be able to withstand." Quran 55:33-36

Commentary & Analysis:

The word "if" expresses in English a condition that is
dependent upon a possibility AND either an achievable or
an unachievable hypothesis. Arabic is a language which
is able to introduce a nuance into the condition which is
much more explicit. There is one word to express the
possibility (ida), another for the achievable hypothesis
(in), and a third for the unachievable hypothesis
expresed by the word 'lau'. The verse in question
has it as an achievable hypothesis expressed by the word
'in'. The Quran therefore suggests the material
possibility of a concrete realization. This subtle
linguistic distinction formally rules out the purely
mystic interpretation that some people have (quiet wrongly)
put on this verse.

God is addressing the spirits (jinn) and humans (ins),
and not essentially allegorical figures.

To penetrate is the translation of the verb 'nafada'
followed by the preposition 'min'. According to
Kazimirski's dictionary, the phrase means 'to pass
right through and come out on the other side of a body'.
For example, an arrow that comes out on the other side.
It therefore suggests a deep penetration and emergence
at the other end into the regions in question.

The Power (sultan) these men will have to achieve this
enterprise would seem to come from the All-Mighty.

There can be no doubt that this verse indicates the
possibility men will one day achieve what we today
call (perhaps rather improperly) 'the conquest of
space.'. One must note that the text of Quran
predicts not only penetration through the regions
of the Heavens, but also the Earth, i.e. the exploration
of its depths.

The Arabic word 'shuwaz', as used in the original, means
the pure, smokeless flame, and 'nuhas' is the the gross
smoke without a flame. These two things, one after the
other, will be let loose upon the men and jinn, when
they try to penetrate the regions.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Explanation/Translations from:

'La Bible, le coran et la Science'
Maurice Bucaille
(The Bible, The Quran, And Science)

The Meaning of Quran
S. Abul A'la Maududi
------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Source of the Constituents of Animal Milk
----------------------------------------------

This is defined in the Quran in strict accordance with

QURAN 16:66:

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Taken from:

LA BIBLE, LE COARN ET LA SCIENCE
by Maurice Bucaille (A French Physician)

Translated from French by Alastair D. Pannel & The Author

(The Bible the Quran and Science)
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

>

> Do you see the absurdity? Such a scripture is true,
>but would anyone who presented a logical (yeah in precise first
>order logic) proof to show that all human knowledge is implied
>by the above statement be received with anything but a nervous
>smile and backward glances to check the nearest exit?

The only absurdity I see is in your reasoning and argument.
Quran never claimed, nor does it show all human knowlegdge.
Quran is not a book of knowledge, nor is it a book on
science, although it contains both in it. Quran is a book
whose subject is human, and it addresses primarily
human nature, and social behavior, and rights and duties
to one another, to society and etc.

>
> Basically, science and religion are opposite forces. You
>are perfectly entitled to your choice of one. But trying to reconcile
>the two will tie you up in knots. Because, science tells you NOT
>TO BELIEVE, but to ask to be CONVINCED, while religion does the
>converse. Of course, there is an interesting situation where people
>start believing in science. I think Asimov wrote an interesting
>story on this. Cant recall the title, something like "Levitation".
>But that is material for another thread.
>
>Himanshu

I became a Muslim as a direct result of studying proof of 'existence'
of a Creator, and the proof that Quran is from Allah only.
In Islam, a Muslim has to be a scientist to truely understand
the remarkable Quran. Many scientists have analyzed Quran's
verses on "science" and became Muslims. The usual scholars
of Islam, who often didn't understand the highly scientific
verses of Quran, were unable to comment and explain the verses.
It took scientists to understand and explain.
This is yet another sign, or proof, from God that the book
is indeed not man-made. More one understands Quran, more
one becomes convinced of its truth.

You're wrong again. I'm convinced that you do not know Islam
well enough. First of all, Islam is not a religion, nor
is it apart or opposite to science, or logic. In fact,
I find Islam to be inseparable from science and logic.
In Islam, one must be convinced of Allah, the Creator,
logically, and also be proved that Quran is in fact a book
from Allah, and not another man-made book.
Islam is built upon one basis, namely, the doctrine (Aqeeda)
which states that there is only one god, Allah,
Who is beyond the universe, man, and life, Who created
them all, Who created everything, Who created things out
of nothing and Who is consequently self-subsistent, i.e.
He is not created, otherwise He would not be a creator;
and as Allah is depicted as being the creator, it is
impossible that He be created. Thus, He is self-subsistent,
because all things depend for their existence on Him while
He does not depend on anything.

As for the need of things to be created by a creator, the
things which the mind comprehends are: man, life and
the universe; all are finite; and consequently they are
powerless, imperfect and in need of others. Man is
finite because in everything he grows to a certain limit
that he cannot surpass. Thus he is limited. Life is
finite because it manifests itself in individuals, and
it is observed to end in the individual, so it is limited.
The universe is finite because it is the sum of the celestial
planets, and each planet is finite, and the sum of finite things
is finite, thus the universe is limited. Therefore, man,
life and the universe are definitely finite. When one
ponders upon the finite one concludes that it is not eternal-
by definition- otherwise it would not be finite; and as such
it must have been created by someone other than that body.
This other body is the creator of man, life and universe.
This Creator is either created by someone else or He
is the creator of Himself or He is eternal, self-subsisting.
Clearly it is absolutely incorrect that He is created by
someone else, because if that was so He would be finite.
As for creating Himself, it is equally false, because if it
were so He would be simultaneously Creator and created
which is absurd. Hence, the Creator must be eternal,
self-subsistent. We call the Creator, Allah.

Notwithstanding this, every person with the capacity to think
can comprehend from the mere existence of things that they
have a Creator who created them, because one conceives
them to be imperfect, powerless and in need of others;
thus they are definitely created. Therefore, it is
sufficient to draw one's attention to anything in the
universe, man and life to deduce that there exists
a Creator, the Governor. Hence, looking at any planet
in the universe, contemplating on any phase of life, or
comprehending any aspect of man provides a conclusive
evidence for the existence of Allah. Accordingly, we
see that the Holy Quran draws attention to things and
calls man to ponder upon them, their surroundings, that
which is related to them, and to deduce from this existence
of Allah. Man observes how things are in need of other
things and concludes from this that there is definitely
the Creator, the Governor. Hundreds of Quranic verses
convey this understanding.

So let man consider from what he is created. He is
created from a gushing fluid. That issued from between
the loins and ribs. 86:5-7

Behold! In the creation of the Heavens and the earth,
and the alternation of night and day, there are indeed
signs for men of understanding. quran 3:190

And of His signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth,
and the difference of your languages and colors. Lo! Herein
indeed are portents for men of knowledge. 30:22

Will they not regard the camels, how they are created ?
And the heaven, how it is raised ! And the hills, how they
are set up ! And the earth, how it is spread! 88:17-20

Lo ! in the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the
difference of night and day, and the ships which run upon
the sea with that which is of use to men, and the water
which Allah sends down from the sky, thereby reviving the
earth after its death, and dispersing of all kinds of
beasts therein, and in the ordinance of the winds, and the
clouds obedient between heaven and earth; are signs (of Allah)
for people who have sense. 2:164

In addition to this, there are so many signs that summon man
to contemplate deeply upon things, their surroundings, and that
which is related to them; and to deduce from this the existence
of the Creator, the Governor, so that man's belief in Allah
be firmly fixed as it is derived from the intellect and
evidence.

Verily, belief in the Creator, the Governor, is instinctive
in everyone, but this instinctive belief comes via emotions,
a way which, on its own, produces neither reliable nor
fixed outcomes. the emotions often add untrue things
to one's belief due to conceiving untrue things as obligatory
attributes to what one believes in, thereby going astray and
falling into disbelief. Idolatry, superstitions and mythology
are the result of emotional belief. Therefore, so as not to
ascribe certain attributes contradicting the nature of divinity,
or to consider Allah incarnated in material substance, thus leading
to atheism or polytheism, or to fancies and superstitions, all of
which are renounced by true faith; Islam did not leave
the emotions as the sole way to belief. This is why it
compels the use of the mind with emotions, and obliges the muslim
to use his mind to believe in Allah and forbids imitation in the
creed. Hence, Islam has assigned the mind to be the arbiter of
belief in Allah.

Behold! In the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the
alternation of night and day, these are indeed signs for men
of understanding. 3:190

The call to look deeply in the universe to deduce its codes
and to be guided to the belief in its Creator is repeated
frequently in the Quran hundreds of times in different chapters;
all of which are directed to man's rational capacity,
inviting him to think deeply and to contemplate
so as to build his belief upon the mind and evidence, warning
him not to imitate what his forefathers were following without
reflecting, contemplating and conviction in being correct.
This is the faith Islam called for. It is the faith of
the enlightened assured person who looked and looked,
thought and thought, until he obtained by this process
of looking and thinking the conviction in the existence
of Allah the Omnipotent.

Although the use of the mind to arrive at the correct faith
in Allah is compulsory, man is unable to comprehend beyond his
senses and mental capacity, because man's mind, no matter how
it develops and grows, is limited in itself and its ability
with non-transgressable limits. Therefore, the mind's ability
to comprehend the nature of Allah, because He is beyond the
universe, man and life. As the human mind cannot comprehend
what is beyond man, it is unable to comprehend the essence of
Allah. Accordingly, one does not ask how does man believe
in Allah by his mind while his mind cannot comprehend the
essence of Allah, because ones belief is a belief in the
existence of Allah. This existence is comprehensible
through the existence of His creations, i.e. the universe,
man and life, all of which are comprehensible, because
they are within the bounds of the mind. Thus, man
comprehends them, and from this he comprehends the
existence of a creator of them who is Allah. Therefore
the belief in the existence of a Allah is rational and within
the realm of mind's potential. This is contrary to the
comprehension of the essence of Allah which is impossible,
as His essence is beyond the universe, man and life, in other
words, beyond the mind. The mind cannot comprehend
that which is beyond its limits, because of its
inability to do so. This deficiency, itself, should be
one of the factors that strengthens the belief and not a
source of suspicion and doubt.

[ci...@d0sb01.fnal.gov]

In article <adam3Dv...@netcom.com>, ad...@netcom.com (Muslim) writes:

> By "smoke" is implied

How do you know what is implied? Dont give me that b.s. about how
modern science talks about nebulae and how, since Allah is all-
knowing, He _must_ have meant nebulae when he used that word,
whatever it is. The truth is, that word at that time did not have
the meaning you are ascribing to it now.

> the initial and primary stages of matter,
> in which it lay diffused in space in a shapeless, dustlike
> condition before the formation of the universe. Scientists
> of the modern age describe the same thing as nebulae, and
> the same also is their view about the beginning of the universe,
> that is, before creation the matter of which the universe
> was built lay diffused in smoke-like nebulous form.

>The same is not true of Quran. In fact, Quran has challenged

>manking to prove it wrong:
> 1) To come up with something like it (or better)
> That is, write even chapter like the Quran if you
> can, and call all your helpers and experts.

Why would anyone in his right mind want to write something like Quran?
There is already enough nonsense in this world..

> 2) Find any contradictions in it.

This is not possible when every word is 'magically' (!) acquiring new
meanings as contradictions with modern science are discovered.

Please take your b.s. propaganda elsewhere.

[an20...@anon.penet.fi]

[an20...@anon.penet.fi]

[an20...@anon.penet.fi]

[Dovvomin Irani]

Kitty wrote:
>
> Sal Schettino <sa...@rain.org> wrote:
> >I the U.S and other places in the world science is taking genes from
> >animals,plants,insects and viruses and mixing them together and I was
> >wondering is there any one beside me does not want these folks to mix up
> >the clean with the unclean.
>
> I think since I work at a genetic engeneering lab, it would be a good
> idea for me to take part in this article if you don't mind. I don't know
> what you mean by 'clean' and 'unclean' and I do not have any more info
> on animals and insect because we only work on plants. When I first
> started working at this lab, the first thing I asked was: can we use
> genetic engeneering for humans? and of course the answer was no for many
> different reasons, one of which is religion. i don't know about the
> jewish leaders but the pope in Rome has certainly made his mark on this
> issue! We can not do ANY kind of genetic engeneering on people. Do you
> know what we CAN do with genetic engeneering? all the genetic diseases
> can be cured, many innocent lives can be saved this way. But no, the
> church will not allow it! Right now we are working on making the grass
> stronger to cold, weeds, ect... when there are so many more important
> things such as diseases that can be cured this way.

But the problem will occure when people like Lex Luther get a hold of this stuff.
I am totally serious. If it were up to me, I'd stop all genetic research on
humans immidiately. This stuff in dangerous. Can you imagine what would happen
if these guys figured out a way to make people think in a specific way? What
about if they could get you to be born with certain characteristics? Say, having
people born with a killer instinct! That would be a disaster!

>
> > One Example: They are taking human genes
> >putting them in a pig so that someday they will be able to put them in
> >man if he needs blood or organs .People are releasing gene altered life
> >now as we speak and I was woundering what religious leaders have to say
> >about genetic engeneering.
>
> Well, as I said, the pope is not very happy about all this! I don't
> believe there have been (legally) any human tests yet.
> >
> >This is my reasoning:
> >You response shows me that it's true and its going to happen. So they
> >are
> >taking things that are clean and making them unclean and releasing them
> >into
> >the world.
>
> Pardon my ignorance, but what do you mean by clean and unclean? They are
> not trying to spread anything bad. They are taking the bad genes and
> replacing them with good ones. What is wrong with that?

Well, Kitty jAn, I've been called paranoid for having this idea, but I don't
believe AIDS came from Africa. I think these genetic guys along with those
"microbiologists" have a lot of these viruses hidden in their labs. I think
that's what is wrong with genetic research: not everyone is a good guy!

>
> > What kosher religious leaders in the Jewish community are you
> >talking to that say its ok to put pork genes in plants and animals we
> >eat.
>
> Never heard about this one;-)
>
> >What true Muslim group are you talking to that doesn't mind a little
> >pork
> >gene in the beef or plants he eats and what vegetarian community like
> >the
> >idea of putting animal genes in plant we eat.
>
> Are you saying that pork gene is harAm?

It's gotta be! It's from a pig! ;-)

>
> > So you talked to the
> >Jewish
> >and Muslim community . Who gave you the ok in those communities? Don't
> >forget their are many more religions then the ones you named and I still
> >say
> >mixing up genes will mix up these folks that do not agree with you. So
> >you
> >think you know the whole story. I don't think any man knows the whole
> >story
> >and the people that think they know the whole story worry me.
>
> you' re right. No one knows the whole story but there are people who
> know a gread deal about this... at least more than what the pope or any
> other religous leaders know.
>
> > I'm not
> >pointing any fingers I'm pointing out that not every one feels the same
> >about transgenic produce and we all live on the earth where these man
> >made
> >gene spliced frankenstein plants,animals and even insects are being
> >released. I also do not feel that gene splicing is the same as good
> >breeding.
>
> why not?
>
> > Do they have to mix up nature so much to make their moneys?
>
> this is not about money. There are so many things that can bw done by
> genetic engeneering.

That's exactly what worries me! There's just a little bit too much that can be
done with genetic engineering.

>
> >Remember the first sin was an angel that thought he knew more than God.
>
> sorry, don't believe I was born then!! But in serious matter I'm an agnostic so
> your last sentence doesn't mean much to me. I hope you understand.
>
> In addition, I just wanted to say that genetic engeneering is not only
> about putting pork genes in other animals, it can mean a great deal of
> improvment in the medical field. So many dangerous genetic diseases can
> be cured. Other than that, physical beauty and even a person's IQ can be
> changes by genetic engeneering. Yet I think the most important thing is
> the medical advantages which are banned right now.

Good! Do you realize the dangers involved in what you are mentioning above?
Messing with peoples' brains?!! That's madness for crying out loud!

Dovvomin Irani
>
> Kitty

[ci...@d0sb01.fnal.gov]

In article <adam3Dv...@netcom.com>, ad...@netcom.com (Muslim) writes:

> -------------------------------------
> "Who Wrote the Holy Quran"
> -------------------------------------

Heh heh! If you are going to 'reveal' that the Quran is holy from the
start, why bother with the following pseudo-scientific nonsense?
Just your saying that Quran is holy is enough to convince the biggest
skeptics of all time! ROTFL :>

[rest of b.s. deleted]

[Muslim]

In article <4tg8i5$e...@newsa.netnews.att.com> gu...@mrspock.mt.att.com (Arun Gupta) writes:
>Historically, that is not the case. Hadith were collected
>and judged valid or invalid based on demonstrated chains
>of transmission from the Prophet, and a judgment of the reliability
>and honesty of each person on that transmission. Comparison against
>the Quran was not a criterion. (If you think about it, it could
>not be. For example, the Quran has "later" verses which override
>provisions from "earlier" verses; and "earlier" or "later" --
>the order of revelation -- comes from tradition, and is not
>self-evident from the Quran itself. )
>
>-arun gupta

There's no such concept in Quran. There's no "earlier/later
verses overriding other verses". There's no abrogation
in Quran, but some people misinterpreted a verse in
Quran (which actualy refers to abrogating PREVIOUS scriptures
like Gospel, and Torah). Any hadith, is invalid if it
contradicts Quran. This is one of the most obvious
criterion for hadith science.

Below is the verse most commonly mininterpreted by people
to suport thier "abrogation" theory:

Quran 2:106

We (ALLAH) bring a better or at least the like of it for whatever
verse We (ALLAH) abrogate or cause to be forgotten. [1].

[1] The verse above DOES NOT say that some Quran verses abroage
other Quran verses. The context of the verse clearly shows that
that is not the case. The vere is talking about abrogating
previous scriptures sent down by Allah, like the Torah,
and the Gospel, and Psalms of David.

This is the answer to an objection raised by the Jews to
create doubts in the minds of Muslims. They argued like
this: The Quran says that the former scriptures had been
sent down by Allah and that is also has been sent down by Him.
If it is so, why does the Quran then give such commands
as differ from those contained in the former books?
How can the same Allah give different commands at different
times ? Besides this, they said, "The Quran asserts that the Jews
and Christians have forgotten a part of the teachings sent downt
to them. How is it possible that the teachings of Allah could
be obliterated from memory?" It is quite obvious that they
did not raise these objections for the sake of arriving
at the truth but for the sake of creating mischief. Allah
answers thier objections thus: "I am the Sovereign and My
powers are unlimited. I can repeal any order of Mine or
allow it to be forgotten, but I substitute in its place
something that serves the SAME purpose better or at least
equally well."

[Muslim]

================================================FORWARDED==ARTICLE======
From mo...@aol.com Fri Aug 18 22:09:54 1995
Date: Sat, 19 Aug 1995 01:09:54 -0400
========================================================================

The Islamic empire in the early 7th Century were the inheritors of the
scientific tradition of late antiquity. They preserved it, elaborated it,
and finally, passed it to Europe (Science p3). At this early date, the
Islamic dynasty of the Umayyads envinced an interest in science. It was
the century that were, for Europeans, the Dark Ages, were, for Muslim
scholars, centuries of philosophical and scientific discovery and
development. The Arabs at the time not only assimilated the ancient wisdom
of Persia, and the classical heritage of Greece, but adapted their own
distinctive needs and ways of thinking
(Hitti 363).

The Islamic ability to reconcile monotheism and science

proves to be a first time in human thought that theology,

philosophy, and science were finally harmonized in a unified

whole. Thus their contribution was "one of the first magnitude,

considering its effect upon scientific and philosophic thought

and upon the theology of later times" (Hitti 580). One of the

reason for such development of science is probably due to God's

commandment to explore the laws of nature. The idea is to admire

all creations for its complexity - to cherish the creator for the

ingenuity. Possibly holding to this believe, Islam's

contributions to science had covered many roots of thought

including mathematics, astronomy, medicine and philosophy. This

paper will examine these roots of natural science, and unearth

the contributions of the Islamic thinkers.

Islam's redound to encourage into thinking was accessed by

two other ancient cultures - the Persian and the Indians. They

became part of the Islamic heritage in the field of mathematics

(Hitti 373). About the year 600 A.H.-during the lifetime of

Prophet Muhammad - an Indian Muslim mathematician developed the

symbol "cipher" or zero and the system of placed notation. This

invention, first mentioned in a Syriac text written in 662 AD,

revolutionized the study of mathematics and made possible the

great achievements of Muslim mathematicians (Science p4).

PART TWO

Mathematical vocabulary such as "algebra" and "algorithm"

are actually borrowings from Arabic words, that were later

translated into Latin. It was a Muslim mathematician who

formulated the trigonometric function explicitly. The word "sine"

was actually the direct translation of the arabic word "jayb". An

English mathematician Robert of Chester, who flourished in the

middle of the twelfth century, was the first to use sinus

equivalent to this Arabic jayb in its trigonometrical acception

(Hitti 573). Al-Khwarizmi composed the oldest book on

mathematics, known only in translation. He presented more than

800 examples of the calculation of integration and equation,

later anticipated by Neo-Babylonians (Hitti 379)."As in

trigonometry so in Algebra Muslims must be considered as the

founders of this science whose very name reflects its origin...

al-Khwarizmi... firmly established this branch of mathematics"

(qtd. King 214). They introduced it with the Arabic numerals into

Europe and taught Westerners the most convenient convention of

arithmetic concept. "The zero and Arabic numerals lie behind the

science of calculation as we know it today" (Hitti 573-574).

In the first half of the ninth century, exponent numerals

including the zero is used in preference to letters by al-

Khwarizmi. In the second half of the ninth century, the Muslims

of Spain developed numerals slightly different in shape, huruf

al-ghubar (letters of dust), originally used in conjunction with

a type of sand abacus. Leonardo Fibonacci of Pisa, who was taught

by a Muslim master published a work which remain a landmark in

the introduction of the Arabic numerals (Hitti 573-574).

Early in the ninth century, mathematical calculations

stimulates the crave for answers to the celestial motion. This

curiosity introduces a new field of thought, called astronomy.

One most important application of astronomy is the timekeeping

for the time of the five daily prayers. These are defined

according to the position of the sun moving from east to west.

The earliest known tables for such purpose are dated from the

tenth century (King 46-48). As necessary to accurate timekeeping

as tables are the instruments used by the Muslims:

The magnificent sundial that ibn al-Shatir constructed in the

year 1371/72 to adorn the main minaret of the Umayyad Mosque

in Damascus. The sundial displays the time of day relative to

sunrise, midday, and sunset and relative to the afternoon

prayer. There are also special curves for times relative to

daybreak and nightfall. Thus the sundial effectively measures

time with respect to each of the five daily prayers (King

547).

An individual by the name of Ibn al-Sarraj devised a series of

astrolables, quadrants, trigonometric grids and other instruments

which are innovative to the extreme. "I consider Ibn al-Sarraj's

astrolable, which is universal from five different aspects, to be

the most sophisticated astrolable from the Near East and

Europe..." (King 544).

Al-Khwarizmi, the genius mathematician, at the time applied

his findings to the new field from which he composed the oldest

planetary tables, or the zij (King 39, Hitti 379). His work

serves as a reference text and were rendered into Latin in the

twelfth century by Gerard of Cremona (Hitti 571). Among the first

regular astronomical observatory tower constructed was in

Jundaysabur, south west of Persia, under the direction of Sind

ibn-'Ali, and Yahaya ibn-abi-Mansur. Being the Caliph's

astronomer, not only that they construct a systematic chart of

celestial movements, but also verified the fundamental elements

of the Almangest (Hitti 373-375). The astronomers of al-Mamun,

the Abbasid Caliph, made many original observations. One of the

most outstanding is the measurement of the meridian near Mosul.

It was found to be 111,814 meters, and measured a degree of

latitude at about 36x north to be 2877 feet (qtd. King 214-215).

"The object is to determine the size of the earth and its

circumference on the assumption that the earth was round" (Hitti

375).

In Spain, astronomical studies were cultivated after the

middle of the tenth century. They reproduced the Aristotelian

system, as distinguished from the Ptolemaic, the representation

of celestial movements. Abu-al-Qasim Maslamah al-Majriti (of

Madrid), the earliest Spanish Muslim astronomer edited and

corrected the zij (planetary tables of al-Khwarizmi), the first

tables composed by a Muslim. Among al-Majriti titles were al-

hisab or the mathematician, for he was considered the leader in

mathematical knowledge. About fourteen years later, the zij that

of al-Battani, was rendered into Latin by Plato of Tivoli.

Copernicus later quotes al-Battani in his book De revolutionibus

orbium coelestium . Al-Zarqali (known as Arzachel in Latin West)

the foremost astronomical observer of his age, deviced the

safihah, a type of astrolabe, that prove the motion of solar

apogee with reference to the stars (Hitti 570-71). Al-Bitruji,

known as Alpetragius developed a new theory of stellar movement

and wrote The book of Form in which it was detailed (Science p22

c3).

Arab astronomers left the sky immortal traces of their

findings. Not only are most of the star-names in European

languages are of Arabic origin (The Worlds Almanac and fact Book

p199 c2), but a number of technical term such as "azimuth" (al-

sumut), "nadir" (nazir), "zenith" (al-samt) are of Arabic

etymology. This testifies the rich legacy of Islam to Christian

Europe (Hitti 573).

The first of the Arabians, the rival indeed of Galen, was

the Persian Ibn Sina, or better known as Avicenna. He was given

the title 'the Prince of Medicine'. His most celebrated work is

Al-Qanun Fil-Tibb or "the Canon of Medicine." He is one of the

greatest names in the history of medicine. He could repeat the

Quraan by heart when he was ten years old, and by twelve he had

disputed in law and logic. He found that medicine was an easy

subject, not hard and thorny (Osler 98). "When I found a

difficulty," he says, "I reffered to my notes and prayed to the

creator" (qtd. Osler 98). His book was long and lengthy,

testifying many aspects of medicine. He classifies efficient

causes and symptoms of diseases. He said that diseases are caused

by the imbalance of the four elementary qualities of hot, wet

cold and dry in the body. Those caused by the faulty composition

or conformation of bodily parts, and those caused by trauma. The

cause of disease is categorize as either connected by the

environment, regimen, and psychology. Among them are the

traditional scheme of "non naturals" from air, food and drink,

repletion and inanition, to the passions of the soul. His book

also discuss concerns for the conservation of health: separate

sections on pediatric, adult, and geriatric regimen. Avicenna

provides twenty one fen on ailments distinctive to each major

organs of the body-arranged from head to toe. (Siraisi 21-22).

The "Black Death", in the middle of the fourteenth century

ravaged Europe while the Christians stood helpless. Ibn-al-

Khatib, a physician of Granada composed a treaties in defence of

the contagion theory and said:

To those who say, "How can we admit the possibility of

infection while the religious law denies it?" we reply that

the existence of contagion is established by experience,

investigation, the evidence on the senses and trustworthy

reports. These facts constitute a sound argument. The fact of

contagion becomes clear to the investigator who notices how

he who establishes contact with afflicted gets the disease,

whereas he who is not in contact remains safe, and how

transmission through garments, vessels and earrings (qtd.

Hitti 576).

The circulation of blood and the idea of quarantine came from an

empirical indication of contagion. It was discovered by Ibn al-

Nafis. Ibn Juljul of Cordoba in 943 became a leading physician at

the age of 24, compiled a book of special treaties on drugs found

in al-Andalus, the Iberian Peninsula (science p23). Ibn-Masawayh

wrote the oldest systematic treaties on opthamology. The book,

titled al-Ashr Maqalat fi al-'Ayn (the ten treaties of the eye)

was the earliest existing text book of opthmathology. In the

curative use of drugs, some amazing advances were made by the

Muslims. They have established the first apothecary shops, and

founded the earliest school of pharmacy (Hitti 364).

The Prince of Medicine, Avicenna, is himself a philosopher

(Arabic falsafah). Philosophy at the time is defined as the

knowledge of the true cause of things as they really are (Hitti

369). He is the first of the Arabic language who created a

philosophical system which is really complete and whole (Khan 5).

"It is noteworthy that Avicenna to his independent intellectual

attainments was without undue modesty" (Fakhry 149). From his

initial study of logic, he turned to the study of physics, and

metaphysics entirely on his own. He became the mentor of many

senior physician at the age of sixteen. By the age of eighteen,

he had mastered logic, physics and mathematics, so there was

nothing left for him to learn except to concentrate on

metaphysics. His major philosophical treaties is Kitab al-Shifa

or the Book of Healing , known in Latin by the title Sufficienta.

It is an encyclopedia of Islamic-Greek learning in the eleventh

century, ranging from logic to mathematics (Fakhry 149-150).

Another greatest patron of Philosophy and science in the

history of Islam is Caliph Al-Mamun. Son of Caliph Harun al-

Rashid, he encouraged on holding disputes in court on logical,

legal, and grammar (Rahman 182). He express with liberal

mindedness, great openness and equanimity (Fakhry 23). He

established in Baghdad his famous Bayt al-Hikmah (house of

wisdom) (Rahman 4), a combination library and academy which in

many respect is an important educational institution (Hitti 310).

This library contains books on all subjects-literature,

specifically Islamic sciences, natural sciences, logic,

philosophy, an many other subjects of thoughts (Rahman 182-183).

The greatest figure in the history of Islamic philosophy and

reaction to Neo Platonism is Imam al-Ghazali - a jurist,

theologian, philosopher and mystic. He said that the "Fiqh" is

the daily bread of believing soul, while the doctrine is only as

valuable as a medicine for the sick (De Boer 39). He also said

that he is being seized by the desire for the truth. He resolved

to search for a "certain knowledge" upon which the object known

in manner is not open to doubt at all. So if the truth were to be

challenged by a miracle-maker, it would withstand its claim -

solid (Fakhry 244-245). Fundamentally, al-Ghazali affirmed an

agnosticism about the ultimate and absolute nature of God. This

need for religious certainty impelled al-Ghazali to mysticism,

and led him back to the discovery of the Quraanic conception of

God. This revealed nature of God is constituted by the Divine

Names and Attributes (Rahman 95).

The first genuine philosopher to write in Arabic was al-

Kindi (Fakhry 9). He is the first peripatetic in Islam. He is

related in many ways to Mutazilite Dialecticians and the Neo-

Pythagorean Natural-Philosophers (DeBoer 97). He was a man of

extraordinary erudition which communicated observations as a

geographer, a historian of civilization and a physician (De Boer

99). Kindi is more than a philosopher. He was a chemist, an

optician and a music theorist (Hitti 370). "He was in no respect

a creative genius" (De Boer 99). The influence of al-Kindi as

author and teacher is mainly through his Mathematics, Geography

and Medicine (De Boer 105).

The intellectual history of the Arabs which the development

of philosophy and science in the Near East virtually begins with

the rise of Islam. Islam not only provide the Arabs with bold

world-view, but thrust them the cultural stage of the ancient

world and set before them their scientific and cultural

treasures. The first generation of Muslim scholars dedicated

themselves wholly to the fixing of a canon based primarily on the

Quran. This is because of the overwhelming sacredness of the

Quraan and the traditions of Prophet Muhammad (Fakhry 1-3). To

the Muslim scholars whose work is shown, the Quraan is the source

of all knowledge - the revelation of God (Science 32).

Many hints was given in the Quran as a prove of the All

Knowing. God says: "Verily God Knows The secrets of the Heavens

And earth:and God sees well all That ye do" (Quran 65:18). Some

of the hints that were mentioned are: "Do not the unbeliever see

that the heavens and earth Were joined together (as one Unit of

Creation), before We clove them asunder? We made from water Every

living thing. Will they not believe?" (Quran 21:30). God phrase "

Do not They Think...", in certain parts of the Quran after

illuminating natural phenomena unthought of by man. Such hints

enhanced man's curiosity and probably fueled their quest for

knowledge. As the roots of knowledge has been established, the

branches and leaves then flourished onto todays advance

technology. Such roots must never be forgotten as without solid

foundation, no pillars can be built and lived on.

----------------------------------------------------------------
Work cited
Business Week 22 Jul. 1985, page 90-91

De Boer, D. T. J.History of Philosophy in Islam ,1933.
Translation by Edward R. Jones. London: Luzac & Company Ltd, 1970.

Fakhry, Majid. A history of Islamic Philosophy .New York and
London: Columbia University Press, 1970.

Hitti, K.Phillip. History of the Arabs.New York: St. Martins
Press, 1970

Khan, M.S. The Philosophy of Avicenna. Delhi: Motilal
Banarsidass, First Edition 1969.

King, A. David. Islamic Mathematical Astronomy .London: Varioum
Reprints, 1986.

Osler, Sir William. The Evolution of Modern Medicine. New Haven:
Yale University Press, 1921.

Quran. Translation by A. Yusuf Ali. Maryland: Amana Corp, 1983

Rahman, Fazlur. ISLAM. Chicago:The University of Chicago Press,
Second edition 1979

Science : The Islamic Legacy: Worlds fair issue, 1987

Sirasi, G. Nancy. AVICENNA in Renaissance Italy. New Jersey:
Princeton University Press, 1987.

The World Almanac and Book of Facts. New York, 1988

*************************************************************************

============================================END==FORWARDED==ARTICLE===

[Jochen Katz]

In article <adam3Dv...@netcom.com>, ad...@netcom.com (Muslim) writes:

> Below is the verse most commonly mininterpreted by people
> to suport thier "abrogation" theory:

> Quran 2:106
>
>
>
> We (ALLAH) bring a better or at least the like of it for whatever
> verse We (ALLAH) abrogate or cause to be forgotten. [1].
>
>
>
> [1] The verse above DOES NOT say that some Quran verses abroage
> other Quran verses. The context of the verse clearly shows that
> that is not the case. The vere is talking about abrogating
> previous scriptures sent down by Allah, like the Torah,
> and the Gospel, and Psalms of David.

There are dozens of verses in the Qur'an which claim that the Qur'an
CONFIRMS the earlier scriptures. One cannot at the SAME time confirm
AND abrogate/substitute. This is logically opposite.

Jochen Katz

Answering Islam: http://www.math.gatech.edu/~jkatz/Islam/