Re: Dutch filmaker who criticized Islam gunned down
฿ละลงง
news:7Z6dnUaO8O1...@rogers.com...
>
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20041102.wdutch2/BNStory/Front/
>
> Dutch filmmaker who criticized Islam gunned down
>
> Associated Press
>
> Amsterdam - A Dutch filmmaker who criticized the treatment of women under
> Islam in a movie and in newspaper columns was shot dead Tuesday outside a
> city government office in Amsterdam, police said.
Maybe there's a pro-U.S. imam out there who'll issue a fatwah against
Michael Moore:
"Moore's anti-American propaganda did not attract anywhere near as many
viewers as the Mullahs had hoped for. Tehran's despots had hoped the film
would challenge the Iranian people's favourable notion of President Bush and
promote John Kerry. But Iranians are too smart. A group of 12 university
students, for example, composed of both men and women who had seen the film,
collectively wrote me and signed an e-mail which said: 'Wow, this guy
complains that Bush lied once. What would this windbag do if he lived here
where our president lies to us once an hour?'"
Iranian Citizens Trash Fahrenheit 9/11
By Banafsheh Zand-Bonazzi
A few weeks ago, Mamoun Fandy, a media analyst, syndicated columnist and
former professor of Arab Studies at Georgetown University, was interviewed
on the subject of Michael Moore. Fandy stated that Iraqis who were familiar
with the film found Moore's portrayal of them to be exceedingly racist; he
went on to say that Moore's callousness to the plight of the Iraqi people
and to the unbelievable human rights devastation in Iraq was outrageous.
And that was only the verdict of the Iraqis.
I have also been asked to express the judgment of a number of Iranians who
saw the film in Iran. They sent e-mails, faxes and even phoned me to ask me
to report their reviews.
First, other than David Lynch's film, 'The Straight Story', Iranians have
not really been exposed to any western films in their cinemas. The Mullahs'
film board forbids the display of women's uncovered hair and all the other
"corruption" Western filmmakers spread. For Iranians, therefore, viewing
Michael Moore's film was a tremendously novel experience.
After 25 years of living in a virtual concentration camp, Iranians have
become exceedingly socio-politically savvy. Moore's anti-American propaganda
did not attract anywhere near as many viewers as the Mullahs had hoped for.
Tehran's despots had hoped the film would challenge the Iranian people's
favourable notion of President Bush and promote John Kerry.
But Iranians are too smart.
A group of 12 university students, for example, composed of both men and
women who had seen the film, collectively wrote me and signed an e-mail
which said: "Wow, this guy complains that Bush lied once. What would this
windbag do if he lived here where our president lies to us once an hour?"
Another comment was: "This guy gets to publicly accuse Bush of lying and
becomes famous and adored worldwide. We, here, complain about some decrepit
and inconsequential government lackey and we not only go to prison but some
of us get death sentences. He ought to thank his lucky stars he lives in a
country where he's allowed and even encouraged to be this obnoxious."
Someone else quipped: "If he thinks that the U.S. is so bad, he's welcome to
trade places with us.since he's so forgiving of brutal Middle Eastern
dictators!"
Another young man said: "They are showing this film to erase from our minds
the idea of America being the great liberator; maybe Americans themselves
don't appreciate what they have but we sure do!"
Another comment was: "Outside such pathetic ideological schemes, Moore's
fixation to reprimand and castigate his own society is so great that he is
BLIND to the fact that our ancient land and society cannot be regarded and
dealt with in the same fashion; therefore he has fallen pray to the Mullahs
for whom he is nothing more than a tool to discard when his mission for them
is completed."
My father, Siamak Pourzand, a 75-year-old Iranian journalist, film
historian/critic/promoter has been a political prisoner since November of
2001 in the Islamic Republic of Iran, where he has experienced severe
torture. During this time, not one member of the self-involved,
international film community, to whom I reached out about his plight,
responded. When in the fall of 2002 I called Michael Moore's office, (like I
did many other Hollywoodites) I was told: "Sorry, but Mr. Moore is too busy
AND just can't get involved in these types of matters because we can't be
sure who you are and what your agenda is."
I am sure Moore is a busy guy, but with all the blowhard exposing of "evil"
that he proclaims to be doing, I'm sure he could have asked someone on his
team to find out who I was and what my so-called "agenda" was. But
unfortunately, he cannot even be bothered to contact the brilliant Ray
Bradbury to get permission to use Mr. Bradbury´s copyrighted title, let
alone contact some random Middle Eastern wretch like me, who'll challenge
his myopia and force him to cast a critical eye outside the little box that
he so cozily lives in.
Most intelligent and politically savvy people from my part of the Middle
East and the vicinity, with whom I network, believe that Moore is not
qualified to address our issues; he is simply not familiar with our
cultures, history, mentalities or peoples' needs; NOR does he have to right
to impose his diatribe on our exhausted and abused peoples.
Mr. Moore and his mindless and greedy distributors thought that they could
manipulate the Iranian people; but this goes to prove a crucial point: Moore
thinks he speaks for his audiences but he does not know them. Otherwise, he
would not have agreed to screen his film in a country whose citizens'
collective, real-life experiences drowns the clamor of Moore's vapid
bitching.
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=15280
kuff (Isaac Adams)
> "GWhyte" <gwhyt...@rogers.com> wrote in message
> news:7Z6dnUaO8O1...@rogers.com...
>
> http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20041102.wdutch2/BNStory/Front/
>
>>Dutch filmmaker who criticized Islam gunned down
>>
>>Associated Press
>>
>>Amsterdam - A Dutch filmmaker who criticized the treatment of women under
>>Islam in a movie and in newspaper columns was shot dead Tuesday outside a
>>city government office in Amsterdam, police said.
>
>
> Maybe there's a pro-U.S. imam out there who'll issue a fatwah against
> Michael Moore:
Similar to my thought when the Dutch filmmaker story broke. There must
be someone out there who would have done the same thing to Moore.
>
...
>
>
> http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=15280
>
>
rmp
I report, you decide
--
The Best in Message Board Discussions
http://www.comicboards.org/religion
GWhyte
"I report, you decide" <tle...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:CIqdnfRnAeB...@comcast.com...
> Hardly.
Show us where it inspires love for all humanity.
XyZmass::.
> "GWhyte" <gwhyt...@rogers.com> wrote in message
> news:7Z6dnUaO8O1...@rogers.com...
> >
> http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20041102.wdutch2/BNStory/Front/
> >
> > Dutch filmmaker who criticized Islam gunned down
He DIED for "HIS_ART" and not for Islam!
฿ละลงง" .....u are an "artist".....GOOD Bye to U as well...DIE
"gracefully" and make the headlines;-)))
Except, U is just a Mossad TWAT hidden in some HOLE,
underground...like a Dung Beatle....INIT???LOL
pien
> ßŋŧ§ wrote:
> > "GWhyte" <gwhyt...@rogers.com> wrote in message
> > news:7Z6dnUaO8O1...@rogers.com...
> >
> >
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20041102.wdutch2/BNSt
ory/Front/
> >
> >>Dutch filmmaker who criticized Islam gunned down
> >>
> >>Associated Press
> >>
> >>Amsterdam - A Dutch filmmaker who criticized the treatment of women under
> >>Islam in a movie and in newspaper columns was shot dead Tuesday outside a
> >>city government office in Amsterdam, police said.
> >
> >
> > Maybe there's a pro-U.S. imam out there who'll issue a fatwah against
> > Michael Moore:
>
> Similar to my thought when the Dutch filmmaker story broke. There must
> be someone out there who would have done the same thing to Moore.
you can't compare these two persons. Theo van Gogh was a very
controversial person in Holland; he lived to offend people, no matter
what religion, race or whatever. One of his favorite things was to call
Muslims goatfuckers in his columns. Originally he was a filmmaker but he
also wrote columns on the net. he used to write for newspapers but they
all kicked him out because of his behavior. don't get me wrong, I'm not
saying that he asked for it or anything like that, but I just want to
make clear that these two cases has no similarities.
Some months ago he released a film called Submission. The film is about
Muslim violence against women. One of the appearing characters is Ayaan
Hirshi Ali, a Dutch politician: she is very fierce against her original
religion, the Islam, and because of that she's got death threats in a
row. The question now is whether van Gogh was killed because of his
columns or his film Submission. Maybe both. We don't know yet, the
information is very vague at the moment.
--
pien
http://www.phil.uu.nl/~pien/blog/
Frank de Groot
Grinch
Ahh, more Muslim pornography.
I report, you decide
Throughout the entire book, if you would actually read it. You can't
get this by only going to www.ihatethekoran.com. :rolleyes:
M?rten
> ฿ละลงง wrote:
> > "GWhyte" <gwhyt...@rogers.com> wrote in message
> > news:7Z6dnUaO8O1...@rogers.com...
> >
> > http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20041102.wdutch2/BNStory/Front/
> >
> >>Dutch filmmaker who criticized Islam gunned down
> >>
> >>Associated Press
> >>
> >>Amsterdam - A Dutch filmmaker who criticized the treatment of women under
> >>Islam in a movie and in newspaper columns was shot dead Tuesday outside a
> >>city government office in Amsterdam, police said.
> >
> >
> > Maybe there's a pro-U.S. imam out there who'll issue a fatwah against
> > Michael Moore:
>
> Similar to my thought when the Dutch filmmaker story broke. There must
> be someone out there who would have done the same thing to Moore.
>
Fahren HYPE 9-11 was not anti-islame, it was anti-American - no fatwa there.
I woule love to see michael moore-on dead though...
kuff (Isaac Adams)
See...
Turd Sandwich
>
> This is how Muslims deal with free speech.
Exactly, and that is why Islam cannot be allowed to exist in civilized countries.
What's bothersome is that Western societies have been built on a long tradition
of tolerance of other religions, other points of view, etc. and now they are
faced with a group of immigrants who expect THEIR religion, point of view, etc.
to be tolerated by their adopted countries BUT who have NO tolerance of the
religion, points of view, etc. of their adopted countries. i.e. they expect
to emigrate to Holland and be permitted the free speech to preech Islam and
criticize Dutch society, but if any member of Dutch society criticizes THEM
then they must be killed. Western society has really gotten itself into a
bind with its traditional belief that ALL forms of speech, politics, and
religion must be tolerated, even those that actively preech the destruction
of Western society (it reminds me of the Cold War era, where Western
countries with open political systems were expected to allow equal access
to Communism, a political ideology allied with an enemy nation and whose
core belief was the destruction of democracy and imposition of dictatorship).
EAC
> Theo van Gogh was a very controversial person in Holland;
> he lived to offend people, no matter what religion,
> race or whatever. One of his favorite things was to call
> Muslims goatfuckers in his columns. Originally he was
> a filmmaker but he also wrote columns on the net.
> he used to write for newspapers but they all kicked him out
> because of his behavior. don't get me wrong, I'm not saying
> that he asked for it or anything like that, but I just want
> to make clear that these two cases has no similarities.
In other words, we got a murder victim here and the potential of
suspects probably most of the Netherland's population?
There's also the possibility that the murder victim was used to make
people fight each other, but since maybe what his said and do aren't
enough, the people that used the murder victim probably murdered him,
thinking that maybe he would be more rewarding as dead person rather a
living person.
XpatriotgamesX
>From: morte...@yahoo.se (M?rten)
>Date: 11/3/2004 10:08 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <116145d2.0411...@posting.google.com>
Fat boy was recently in Ohio with a film crew to capture voting irregularities.
He was traveling with two or more body guards at all times. Maybe we'll luck
out and he'll choke on a chicken bone.
Count 1
"EAC" <digi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:6482ad0.04110...@posting.google.com...
> pi...@xs4all.nl (pien) wrote in message
news:<1gmog82.1gxl4i41jubn6aN%pi...@xs4all.nl>...
> > Theo van Gogh was a very controversial person in Holland;
> > he lived to offend people, no matter what religion,
> > race or whatever. One of his favorite things was to call
> > Muslims goatfuckers in his columns. Originally he was
> > a filmmaker but he also wrote columns on the net.
> > he used to write for newspapers but they all kicked him out
> > because of his behavior. don't get me wrong, I'm not saying
> > that he asked for it or anything like that, but I just want
> > to make clear that these two cases has no similarities.
>
> In other words, we got a murder victim here and the potential of
> suspects probably most of the Netherland's population?
Nope. That is a highly erroneous conclusion. In general the Netherlands
supports freedom of speech and thought. This crime was conducted by someone
(well witnessed BTW) who wants to deny freedom of speech and thought.
The question is why does he want to deny it? Is his ideology so morally
corrupt and intellectually weak it cannot sustain dissent?
> There's also the possibility that the murder victim was used to make
> people fight each other, but since maybe what his said and do aren't
> enough, the people that used the murder victim probably murdered him,
> thinking that maybe he would be more rewarding as dead person rather a
> living person.
Keep stretching EAC - careful you don't pull a muscle.
The Devil's Advocate©
>
>This is how Muslims deal with free speech.
http://forum.protestwarrior.com/avatars/1524096839418974fd28e4e.jpg
Karl
Jesus... an African American posting racist propaganda... now I've seen
everything.
Bush is the AntiChrist!! (was: I report, you decide)
How do you know he is African American? Did he/she tell you this?
M?rten
"Western Society", being Europe? Here in America, we don't care for
the pigs an dogs of allah, either...
I have been saying these things for, at least, ten years - but I think
you said it very well.
How many more Europeans need to be murdered by filthy moslum
immigrants before they wake up?
This is only the beginning - stop it now! - or else soon it will be
legal to murder non-moslums.
Karl
> How many more Europeans need to be murdered by filthy moslum
> immigrants before they wake up?
Well - I can think of one: a Dutch racist film maker. Can you name a
second? It'll take a few more before Europeans take up your Nazi agenda.
In fact, a lot more Muslims have been attacked by racist Europeans than
the other way around.
Karl
> Karl wrote:
>
>> The Devil's AdvocateŠ wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 08:24:40 -0500, Voice Of Reason <> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> This is how Muslims deal with free speech.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> http://forum.protestwarrior.com/avatars/1524096839418974fd28e4e.jpg
>>
>>
>>
>> Jesus... an African American posting racist propaganda... now I've
>> seen everything.
>
> How do you know he is African American? Did he/she tell you this?
Yes - we're acquainted. He's not a bad guy, just easily led.
Abdiel
> Nope. That is a highly erroneous conclusion. In general the
Netherlands
> supports freedom of speech and thought. This crime was conducted by
someone
> (well witnessed BTW) who wants to deny freedom of speech and thought.
>
> The question is why does he want to deny it? Is his ideology so
morally
> corrupt and intellectually weak it cannot sustain dissent?
>
Could be. Could be that he'd simply grown tired of being called a
"goat fucker" (it's funny how most of the commentary focusses on the
film Van Gogh was making, not his column, in which it was far less
common for him to say "Muslim", "Turk", or "Moroccan" than "Goat
Fucker" when describing Holland's Muslim immigrant population).
--A
Count 1
"Abdiel" <abdi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1099605595.0...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > Nope. That is a highly erroneous conclusion. In general the
> Netherlands
> > supports freedom of speech and thought. This crime was conducted by
> someone
> > (well witnessed BTW) who wants to deny freedom of speech and thought.
> >
> > The question is why does he want to deny it? Is his ideology so
> morally
> > corrupt and intellectually weak it cannot sustain dissent?
> >
>
> Could be. Could be that he'd simply grown tired of being called a
> "goat fucker"
I think its highly unlikely someone would resort to murdering a name caller
unless they had some other kind of justification. But maybe I'm relying on
my western mindset too much.
Abdiel
Not just a name-caller, an unabashed bigot and zenophobe. In his
column, "The Healthy Smoker," Gogh would rarely if ever refer to
non-indigenous Dutch as anything *but* "goat fuckers." Gogh's being
put up as a martyr to free speech and thought, but his speech isn't
speech of freedom, and it doesn't appear to have required much thought.
Maybe he's a martyr of *something*, but Islamic dissent wasn't his bag
and you shouldn't pretend it was. It was anti-Islamic bigotry. Take a
big enough crap and you're going to draw some flies.
--A
Count 1
I'm certainly not up on his writings and work enough to agree or disagree
with your claims, suffice to say it doesn't really matter what he said or
why he said it. The fact is he was killed and he was killed by someone who
probably believes such a killing is 'God's justice'.
Which means there exists some ideologies whose followers do not have the
prerequisite coping skills to live in the west.
Turd Sandwich
> "Western Society", being Europe? Here in America, we don't care for
> the pigs an dogs of allah, either...
"Western" means European AND North American culture, since the 3 countries
of North America are descendents of European colonies. "Western" is used
to distinguish our culture from those of Asia, Mid-East, Africa, etc.
And I am an American too, I was just commenting on Holland's progressive
and liberal culture and how totalitarian Muslims have abused it.
> I have been saying these things for, at least, ten years - but I think
> you said it very well.
>
> How many more Europeans need to be murdered by filthy moslum
> immigrants before they wake up?
>
> This is only the beginning - stop it now! - or else soon it will be
> legal to murder non-moslums.
And I wouldn't doubt it. Muslims in several Western countries are already
agitating for the right to create their own Sharia courts that would
operate independently from the Western legal systems that govern those
countries. In other words, while Europe and the U.S. no longer have any
laws against adultery or pre-marital sex, much less punishments such as
death by stoning or beheading for them, Muslim communities in Europe and
America want to create Sharia Islamic courts to convict members of their
community of these (non-) offenses and carry out barbaric executions.
And don't expect it will stop there, once they have created such "courts"
to try Muslims, they will soon insist that Sharia law and punishment be
applied to all the NON-Muslims in those countries as well. Expect to see
non-Muslim Dutch women forced to wear burqas within 20 years if this
trend continues.
Count 1
> Not just a name-caller, an unabashed bigot and zenophobe.
In this article he's also called an 'artist'.
AMSTERDAM - Moroccan teenagers have allegedly spat on a large portrait of
murdered Dutch filmmaker Theo van Gogh in Amsterdam, it was reported
Thursday.
Shortly after Van Gogh's murder on Tuesday, spray can and graffiti artist
Donovan Spaanstra, 33, painted a portrait of the Dutch television celebrity
and columnist on the façade of a building in the Warmoesstraat.
"For an artist, from an artist. Van Gogh has walked past here thousands of
times," Spaanstra told newspaper De Telegraaf.
Initially greeted by applause for painting the portrait, Spaanstra claimed
some Moroccan teens then hassled him, screaming "Hamas, Hamas". He claimed
they even spat on the portrait and did not want to discuss the killing.
Van Gogh was shot and stabbed on Tuesday morning and police arrested a
26-year-old Dutch-Moroccan man in connection with the killing. Police are
investigating his alleged links with Islamic fundamentalists.
Immigrant groups in the Netherlands - the Municipal Moroccan Council (SMR)
and the Turkish Cultural Federation - have forthrightly condemned the
assassination.
There was also applause, approval and expressions of sadness witnessed in
Warmoesstraat in reaction to the Van Gogh portrait. A swathe of flowers has
since been placed before the painting
Turd Sandwich
Um, I thought Islam was a RELIGION, not a "race." I didn't see his film,
but I don't think it said that "brown-skinned" people were oppressing
and raping women, it said that MUSLIMS were oppressing and raping women.
You leftists are utterly amazing, with your talk of "tolerance" on one
hand then your rabid support for the most INTOLERANT group on the face
of the earth. For at least the last century the left has viciously
fought to practically destroy the Christian church, ostensibly for all
its "oppression" (which I don't deny exists), then you turn around and
EMBRACE an evil totalitarian brainwashing cult that is thousands of
times more oppressive than Christianity ever was, even in the darkest
days of the Dark Ages. Why do you bother? If your defense of Islam
winds up being successful and they prevail in destroying Western
civilization (as you seem to want), you can be sure that YOU will be
among the first they behead.
BTW, exactly how many precious Muslims have been killed by "racist"
Europeans? 5, 500, 5000? Is it even close to the number of
Europeans and Americans slaughtered by Muslims in terrorist attacks?
If Europe is so terrible and racist and anti-Muslim, why do they
keep emigrating to Europe?
The Devil's Advocate©
<petersenk...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>Jesus... an African American posting racist propaganda... now I've seen
>everything.
I didn't realize Moslems are a race. Whoa, and you said "jesus"!!! A
Christian-hating atheist is calling out Jesus.LOL.
Karl
> "Karl" <petersenk...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote...
>
>> M?rten wrote:
>>
>>> How many more Europeans need to be murdered by filthy moslum
>>> immigrants before they wake up?
>>
>>
>> Well - I can think of one: a Dutch racist film maker. Can you name a
>> second? It'll take a few more before Europeans take up your Nazi
>> agenda. In fact, a lot more Muslims have been attacked by racist
>> Europeans than the other way around.
>
>
> Um, I thought Islam was a RELIGION, not a "race." I didn't see his film,
> but I don't think it said that "brown-skinned" people were oppressing
> and raping women, it said that MUSLIMS were oppressing and raping women.
The man was a known racist. I didn't mention his film. In Holland, there
are racist attacks on some minorities, some of whom are Muslim.
> You leftists are utterly amazing, with your talk of "tolerance" on one
> hand then your rabid support for the most INTOLERANT group on the face
> of the earth.
The most intolerant group on the face of the earth just voted Dubya back
into power.
Karl
> "M?rten" <morte...@yahoo.se> wrote...
>
>> "Western Society", being Europe? Here in America, we don't care for
>> the pigs an dogs of allah, either...
>
>
> "Western" means European AND North American culture, since the 3 countries
> of North America are descendents of European colonies. "Western" is used
> to distinguish our culture from those of Asia, Mid-East, Africa, etc.
> And I am an American too, I was just commenting on Holland's progressive
> and liberal culture and how totalitarian Muslims have abused it.
No - you refused to say how "Muslims have abused it". So go ahead. Other
than this unfortunate killing of a known racist, what else makes you say
this?
Karl
> <petersenk...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>>Jesus... an African American posting racist propaganda... now I've seen
>>everything.
>
>
> I didn't realize Moslems are a race.
When you post stuff that would not be out of place on a KKK leaflet, you
need to re-examine where you're coming from.
Bush is the AntiChrist!! (was: I report, you decide)
> Easily led? One could say that about the average Muslim in a 3rd
> world country. They have given in to the Dark Side.
>
No actually almost all of them have managed to stay away from being
Americanized.
--
The Best in Message Board Discussions
http://www.comicboards.org/religion
-----------------
Bush is re-elected, fly the flag upside down!
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XpatriotgamesX
>Date: 11/5/2004 12:54 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <cmff4f$btf$2...@news.freedom2surf.net>
You Brits don't keep up with current events, huh? You think this was an
isolated incident?
Abdiel
Sure it does. Goes to motive.
> The fact is he was killed and he was killed by someone who
> probably believes such a killing is 'God's justice'.
>
You say "probably" here (which is probably a good idea, given that
you're not all that up on what Gogh was about, which probably means
that you're also not all that up on why he might've been shot).
> Which means there exists some ideologies whose followers do not have
the
> prerequisite coping skills to live in the west.
Are you talking about Mohammed B. or Gogh?
--M
Abdiel
Sure it does. Goes to motive.
> The fact is he was killed and he was killed by someone who
> probably believes such a killing is 'God's justice'.
>
You say "probably" here (which is probably a good idea, given that
you're not all that up on what Gogh was about, which probably means
that you're also not all that up on why he might've been shot).
> Which means there exists some ideologies whose followers do not have
the
> prerequisite coping skills to live in the west.
Turd Sandwich
I thought I made it quite clear. For centuries Western culture has stood
for freedom of religion, speech, and tolerance of opposing viewpoints.
Islam stands for none of these things. Muslims immigrate to Western
countries and demand THEIR religion, culture, etc. be respected by their
adopted countries, then they turn around and are extremely intolerant
of the culture, religion, viewpoint, etc. of their adopted countries.
In other words, Muslim immigrants feel free to criticize the "decadent,
immoral, and corrupt" culture of Holland, but if the Dutch dare to
criticize the backwards, oppressive, and totalitarian culture of the
Muslim immigrants then they must be killed. That is the abuse of our
culture I was referring to. I wonder what would happen to me if I
emigrated to a Muslim society and began condemning their culture and
tried to impose my American culture on them (e.g. I opened a series
of porn and liquor stores or published a newspaper with uncensored
news)? Maybe when they burn me at the stake I can accuse them of
being "racist."
Abdiel
> > Not just a name-caller, an unabashed bigot and zenophobe.
>
> In this article he's also called an 'artist'.
Doesn't suprise me. Racism's becoming much more in vogue these days.
--A
Count 1
Not as much as a radicalized holy warrior.
> > The fact is he was killed and he was killed by someone who
> > probably believes such a killing is 'God's justice'.
> >
>
> You say "probably" here (which is probably a good idea, given that
> you're not all that up on what Gogh was about, which probably means
> that you're also not all that up on why he might've been shot).
Considering the note stabbed to his chest everyone can discern why he was
shot. A radicalized warrior for Allah took offense at some of his words and
since these radicalized warriors for allah have no moral structure worth
mentioning he concluded his offense was more important than this filmmakers
life.
>
> > Which means there exists some ideologies whose followers do not have
> the
> > prerequisite coping skills to live in the west.
> Are you talking about Mohammed B. or Gogh?
Gogh is the victim here Abdiel. Please try to remember that.
Count 1
What's racist about calling someone an artist?
Abdiel
Really? What did the note say? Did you know what the note said when
you wrote what you wrote?
> A radicalized warrior for Allah took offense at some of his words and
> since these radicalized warriors for allah have no moral structure
worth
> mentioning he concluded his offense was more important than this
filmmakers
> life.
>
> >
> > > Which means there exists some ideologies whose followers do not
have
> > the
> > > prerequisite coping skills to live in the west.
>
> > Are you talking about Mohammed B. or Gogh?
>
> Gogh is the victim here Abdiel. Please try to remember that.
I do, Count 1. But you shouldn't lie about who Gogh was and paint him
into a martyr for art, literature, free speech, or free thought. He
was a bigot and a zenophobe who thought of the non-white immigrants to
Holland as "goat fuckers" and never ceased expressing his derision and
hatred for them. He then got shot for those beliefs, which is a crime,
and a serious crime at that.
--A
Abdiel
Nothing. It's racist to refer to non-white immigrants to Holland as
"goat fuckers."
--A
Turd Sandwich
>> You leftists are utterly amazing, with your talk of "tolerance" on one
>> hand then your rabid support for the most INTOLERANT group on the face
>> of the earth.
>
> The most intolerant group on the face of the earth just voted Dubya back
> into power.
And while I am mad that Bush won, at least he was ELECTED, unlike the
self-righteous, self-appointed, oh-so-fucking-holy "leaders" of
Islamic societies. While Bush is a moron, at least a majority (even
if a narrow majority) of Americans CHOSE him. Compare that to any
Islamic country where the only qualification to rule, make law, and
even order people executed is to grow a long beard, wrap a rag on
your head, and spout a few verses from the koran. And notice that
in my "fascist" country I can call my president a "moron" without
fear of being executed (I wonder what happens to Iranians who call
the Ayatollah a moron?). And you call us intolerant?
Count 1
I've posted text from it.
> > A radicalized warrior for Allah took offense at some of his words and
> > since these radicalized warriors for allah have no moral structure
> worth
> > mentioning he concluded his offense was more important than this
> filmmakers
> > life.
> >
> > >
> > > > Which means there exists some ideologies whose followers do not
> have
> > > the
> > > > prerequisite coping skills to live in the west.
> >
> > > Are you talking about Mohammed B. or Gogh?
> >
> > Gogh is the victim here Abdiel. Please try to remember that.
>
> I do, Count 1. But you shouldn't lie about who Gogh was and paint him
> into a martyr for art, literature, free speech, or free thought. He
> was a bigot and a zenophobe who thought of the non-white immigrants to
> Holland as "goat fuckers" and never ceased expressing his derision and
> hatred for them.
Googling this 'goat fuckers' snippet I've only found one instance of this
statement. It was in reference to Islamic militant radicals - he also called
them 'fifth columnists'.
One way or the other these trangressions do not merit the death penalty.
He then got shot for those beliefs, which is a crime,
> and a serious crime at that.
Noo...he didn't get shot for his beliefs. He got shot because ....
"A radicalized warrior for Allah took offense at some of his words and
since these radicalized warriors for allah have no moral structure worth
mentioning he concluded his offense was more important than this filmmakers
life."
>
> --A
>
Count 1
Not unless he associates the term with a particular race. Now we know you
like to find races where none exist, but surely you're not suggesting
'Islamic Militants' is a racial term.
One way or the other nothing excuses this horrific act.....right?
Abdiel
why he
> > was
> > > shot.
> >
> > Really? What did the note say? Did you know what the note said
when
> > you wrote what you wrote?
>
> I've posted text from it.
>
You sure have. The text from it isn't even addressed to Gogh. But,
more importantly, did you know what the note said when you wrote what
you wrote?
>
How many times have you chided others over using Google as a source for
all knowledge, Count 1?
> One way or the other these trangressions do not merit the death
penalty.
>
Never said they did.
>
> He then got shot for those beliefs, which is a crime,
> > and a serious crime at that.
>
> Noo...he didn't get shot for his beliefs. He got shot because ....
he called Muslims "goat fuckers." For all you know, that's why he got
shot. Pretending otherwise, and making a classless bigot like Gogh
into a hero for your cause, merely muddies the water.
--A
Abdiel
Count 1 wrote:
> "Abdiel" <abdi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1099677429.4...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > Count 1 wrote:
> > > "Abdiel" <abdi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > news:1099676604.1...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> > > > Count 1 wrote:
> > > > > > Not just a name-caller, an unabashed bigot and zenophobe.
> > > > >
> > > > > In this article he's also called an 'artist'.
> > > >
> > > > Doesn't suprise me. Racism's becoming much more in vogue these
> > days.
> > >
> > > What's racist about calling someone an artist?
> >
> > Nothing. It's racist to refer to non-white immigrants to Holland
as
> > "goat fuckers."
>
> Not unless he associates the term with a particular race.
Or races, as the case may be.
> Now we know you
> like to find races where none exist,
That's one way of looking at it. Another is that you like to define
"racist" so that you're not one. Funny how that works.
"Arabs contribute nothing of significance to humanity"
--Count 1, 2004-08-29
> but surely you're not suggesting
> 'Islamic Militants' is a racial term.
>
I'm not. But non-white immigrants are races that aren't white.
> One way or the other nothing excuses this horrific act.....right?
Of course not. Never said it did.
--A
Karl
> "Karl" <petersenk...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote...
>
>>> You leftists are utterly amazing, with your talk of "tolerance" on one
>>> hand then your rabid support for the most INTOLERANT group on the face
>>> of the earth.
>>
>>
>> The most intolerant group on the face of the earth just voted Dubya
>> back into power.
>
>
> And while I am mad that Bush won, at least he was ELECTED, unlike the
> self-righteous, self-appointed, oh-so-fucking-holy "leaders" of
> Islamic societies.
Name three.
> While Bush is a moron, at least a majority (even
> if a narrow majority) of Americans CHOSE him.
You're right. I have to grit my teeth when I say it, but a
democratically elected asshole (even Bush) is better than any
non-elected leader.
> Compare that to any
> Islamic country where the only qualification to rule, make law, and
> even order people executed is to grow a long beard, wrap a rag on
> your head, and spout a few verses from the koran. And notice that
> in my "fascist" country I can call my president a "moron" without
> fear of being executed (I wonder what happens to Iranians who call
> the Ayatollah a moron?). And you call us intolerant?
When did I claim Iran was tolerant? Great, America is more tolerant than
Iran. Set yourself higher targets.
Karl
> "Karl" <petersenk...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote...
>
>> Turd Sandwich wrote:
>>
>>> "M?rten" <morte...@yahoo.se> wrote...
>>>
>>>> "Western Society", being Europe? Here in America, we don't care for
>>>> the pigs an dogs of allah, either...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "Western" means European AND North American culture, since the 3
>>> countries
>>> of North America are descendents of European colonies. "Western" is
>>> used
>>> to distinguish our culture from those of Asia, Mid-East, Africa, etc.
>>> And I am an American too, I was just commenting on Holland's progressive
>>> and liberal culture and how totalitarian Muslims have abused it.
>>
>>
>> No - you refused to say how "Muslims have abused it". So go ahead.
>> Other than this unfortunate killing of a known racist, what else makes
>> you say this?
>
>
> I thought I made it quite clear. For centuries Western culture has stood
> for freedom of religion, speech, and tolerance of opposing viewpoints.
> Islam stands for none of these things. Muslims immigrate to Western
> countries and demand THEIR religion, culture, etc. be respected by their
> adopted countries, then they turn around and are extremely intolerant
> of the culture, religion, viewpoint, etc. of their adopted countries.
> In other words, Muslim immigrants feel free to criticize the "decadent,
> immoral, and corrupt" culture of Holland
And you know this how? I'm often in Amsterdam and the large Muslim
population seems to enjoy it exactly the way it is. Are you speaking
from a) experience or b) your ass?
Count 1
> > > > Considering the note stabbed to his chest everyone can discern
> why he
> > > was
> > > > shot.
> > >
> > > Really? What did the note say? Did you know what the note said
> when
> > > you wrote what you wrote?
> >
> > I've posted text from it.
> >
>
> You sure have. The text from it isn't even addressed to Gogh. But,
> more importantly, did you know what the note said when you wrote what
> you wrote?
No. Considering my use of 'probably' at the time it really doesn't make a
difference.
Subsequent events have changed my 'probably' to 'definetely'.
Couldn't find a source eh?
> > One way or the other these trangressions do not merit the death
> penalty.
> >
>
> Never said they did.
You certainly never said they didnt' either.
> >
> > He then got shot for those beliefs, which is a crime,
> > > and a serious crime at that.
> >
> > Noo...he didn't get shot for his beliefs. He got shot because ....
>
> he called Muslims "goat fuckers."
No - he called radical islamist militants goat fuckers. Even if he had
called all muslims 'goat fuckers' he didn't deserve to die.
XpatriotgamesX
>Date: 11/5/2004 9:41 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <mXOid.946$_J2....@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Nope, they'd just be doing Allah's work.
Count 1
>
> Count 1 wrote:
> > "Abdiel" <abdi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:1099677429.4...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> > >
> > > Count 1 wrote:
> > > > "Abdiel" <abdi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:1099676604.1...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> > > > > Count 1 wrote:
> > > > > > > Not just a name-caller, an unabashed bigot and zenophobe.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In this article he's also called an 'artist'.
> > > > >
> > > > > Doesn't suprise me. Racism's becoming much more in vogue these
> > > days.
> > > >
> > > > What's racist about calling someone an artist?
> > >
> > > Nothing. It's racist to refer to non-white immigrants to Holland
> as
> > > "goat fuckers."
> >
> > Not unless he associates the term with a particular race.
>
> Or races, as the case may be.
If he refers to races then he's not making a racial comment.
> > Now we know you
> > like to find races where none exist,
>
> That's one way of looking at it. Another is that you like to define
> "racist" so that you're not one. Funny how that works.
>
> "Arabs contribute nothing of significance to humanity"
> --Count 1, 2004-08-29
Actually you were the one who made that statement Abdiel - you were
mischaracterizing a question I asked.
> > but surely you're not suggesting
> > 'Islamic Militants' is a racial term.
> >
>
> I'm not. But non-white immigrants are races that aren't white.
?? Gogh - AFAICT - didnt' call non white immigrants goat fuckers. He called
radical islamic militants goatfuckers.
> > One way or the other nothing excuses this horrific act.....right?
> Of course not. Never said it did.
From your first post in this thread;
"Could be that he'd simply grown tired of being called a "goat fucker" (it's
funny how most of the commentary focusses on the film Van Gogh was making,
not his column, in which it was far less common for him to say "Muslim",
"Turk", or "Moroccan" than "Goat Fucker" when describing Holland's Muslim
immigrant population)."
I don't see much a condemnation there, in fact I see an explanation and then
a further vilification of the victim.
Abdiel
Count 1 wrote:
> "Abdiel" <abdi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1099679567.8...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > Count 1 wrote:
> > > "Abdiel" <abdi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > news:1099677429.4...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> > > >
> > > > Count 1 wrote:
> > > > > "Abdiel" <abdi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:1099676604.1...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> > > > > > Count 1 wrote:
> > > > > > > > Not just a name-caller, an unabashed bigot and
zenophobe.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > In this article he's also called an 'artist'.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Doesn't suprise me. Racism's becoming much more in vogue
these
> > > > days.
> > > > >
> > > > > What's racist about calling someone an artist?
> > > >
> > > > Nothing. It's racist to refer to non-white immigrants to
Holland
> > as
> > > > "goat fuckers."
> > >
> > > Not unless he associates the term with a particular race.
> >
> > Or races, as the case may be.
>
> If he refers to races then he's not making a racial comment.
>
?? It's okay to denigrate *many* race, but not just one? What an odd
moral compass you have, Count 1.
>
> > > Now we know you
> > > like to find races where none exist,
> >
> > That's one way of looking at it. Another is that you like to
define
> > "racist" so that you're not one. Funny how that works.
> >
> > "Arabs contribute nothing of significance to humanity"
> > --Count 1, 2004-08-29
>
> Actually you were the one who made that statement Abdiel - you were
> mischaracterizing a question I asked.
>
On 2004-08-29, you said that "Arab cultures contribute nothing of any
signifigance to humanity". Don't compound the problem by lying about
it now.
>
> > > but surely you're not suggesting
> > > 'Islamic Militants' is a racial term.
> > >
> >
> > I'm not. But non-white immigrants are races that aren't white.
>
> ?? Gogh - AFAICT - didnt' call non white immigrants goat fuckers. He
called
> radical islamic militants goatfuckers.
>
"AFAICT" being the operative phrase.
>
> > > One way or the other nothing excuses this horrific act.....right?
>
> > Of course not. Never said it did.
>
> From your first post in this thread;
> "Could be that he'd simply grown tired of being called a "goat
fucker" (it's
> funny how most of the commentary focusses on the film Van Gogh was
making,
> not his column, in which it was far less common for him to say
"Muslim",
> "Turk", or "Moroccan" than "Goat Fucker" when describing Holland's
Muslim
> immigrant population)."
>
> I don't see much a condemnation there, in fact I see an explanation
and then
> a further vilification of the victim.
I don't particularly care what *you* see, Count 1. I'm not answerable
to you. Not in the slightest.
--A
Count 1
I didn't say its ok to denigrate any race Abdiel. If a person refers to
races in the plural then it is very difficult to say he is making a comment
designed to single out one race.
> > > > Now we know you
> > > > like to find races where none exist,
> > >
> > > That's one way of looking at it. Another is that you like to
> define
> > > "racist" so that you're not one. Funny how that works.
> > >
> > > "Arabs contribute nothing of significance to humanity"
> > > --Count 1, 2004-08-29
> >
> > Actually you were the one who made that statement Abdiel - you were
> > mischaracterizing a question I asked.
> >
>
> On 2004-08-29, you said that "Arab cultures contribute nothing of any
> signifigance to humanity". Don't compound the problem by lying about
> it now.
There's no problem here Abdiel. They don't. And you still haven't shown
how its a racist comment.
You can try again - but you will only fail again.
> >
> > > > but surely you're not suggesting
> > > > 'Islamic Militants' is a racial term.
> > > >
> > >
> > > I'm not. But non-white immigrants are races that aren't white.
> >
> > ?? Gogh - AFAICT - didnt' call non white immigrants goat fuckers. He
> called
> > radical islamic militants goatfuckers.
> >
>
> "AFAICT" being the operative phrase.
and As far as you can tell he did?
> > > > One way or the other nothing excuses this horrific act.....right?
> >
> > > Of course not. Never said it did.
> >
> > From your first post in this thread;
> > "Could be that he'd simply grown tired of being called a "goat
> fucker" (it's
> > funny how most of the commentary focusses on the film Van Gogh was
> making,
> > not his column, in which it was far less common for him to say
> "Muslim",
> > "Turk", or "Moroccan" than "Goat Fucker" when describing Holland's
> Muslim
> > immigrant population)."
> >
> > I don't see much a condemnation there, in fact I see an explanation
> and then
> > a further vilification of the victim.
>
> I don't particularly care what *you* see, Count 1. I'm not answerable
> to you. Not in the slightest.
Did you enjoy vilifying the victim?
Abdiel
Uh, okay. So how does that make refering to non-white immigrants to
Holland as "goat fuckers" un-racist?
>
> > > > > Now we know you
> > > > > like to find races where none exist,
> > > >
> > > > That's one way of looking at it. Another is that you like to
> > define
> > > > "racist" so that you're not one. Funny how that works.
> > > >
> > > > "Arabs contribute nothing of significance to humanity"
> > > > --Count 1, 2004-08-29
> > >
> > > Actually you were the one who made that statement Abdiel - you
were
> > > mischaracterizing a question I asked.
> > >
> >
> > On 2004-08-29, you said that "Arab cultures contribute nothing of
any
> > signifigance to humanity". Don't compound the problem by lying
about
> > it now.
>
> There's no problem here Abdiel.
Sure there is: that's a racist statement.
>
> > >
> > > > > but surely you're not suggesting
> > > > > 'Islamic Militants' is a racial term.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > I'm not. But non-white immigrants are races that aren't white.
> > >
> > > ?? Gogh - AFAICT - didnt' call non white immigrants goat
fuckers. He
> > called
> > > radical islamic militants goatfuckers.
> > >
> >
> > "AFAICT" being the operative phrase.
>
> and As far as you can tell he did?
>
Yup.
>
> > > > > One way or the other nothing excuses this horrific
act.....right?
> > >
> > > > Of course not. Never said it did.
> > >
> > > From your first post in this thread;
> > > "Could be that he'd simply grown tired of being called a "goat
> > fucker" (it's
> > > funny how most of the commentary focusses on the film Van Gogh
was
> > making,
> > > not his column, in which it was far less common for him to say
> > "Muslim",
> > > "Turk", or "Moroccan" than "Goat Fucker" when describing
Holland's
> > Muslim
> > > immigrant population)."
> > >
> > > I don't see much a condemnation there, in fact I see an
explanation
> > and then
> > > a further vilification of the victim.
> >
> > I don't particularly care what *you* see, Count 1. I'm not
answerable
> > to you. Not in the slightest.
>
> Did you enjoy vilifying the victim?
I didn't vilify the victim. I just didn't lie about who he was. I
don't enjoy talking about racists, Count 1. I wish they weren't racist
in the first place.
--A
Count 1
I see no reason to explore this line of thought since it is irrelevant to
the issue at hand.
>
> >
> > > > > > Now we know you
> > > > > > like to find races where none exist,
> > > > >
> > > > > That's one way of looking at it. Another is that you like to
> > > define
> > > > > "racist" so that you're not one. Funny how that works.
> > > > >
> > > > > "Arabs contribute nothing of significance to humanity"
> > > > > --Count 1, 2004-08-29
> > > >
> > > > Actually you were the one who made that statement Abdiel - you
> were
> > > > mischaracterizing a question I asked.
> > > >
> > >
> > > On 2004-08-29, you said that "Arab cultures contribute nothing of
> any
> > > signifigance to humanity". Don't compound the problem by lying
> about
> > > it now.
> >
> > There's no problem here Abdiel.
>
> Sure there is: that's a racist statement.
Nope. 'Arab cultures' is not a racial determinant. And you know this
because I have demonstrated how and why on many occasions.
> >
> > > >
> > > > > > but surely you're not suggesting
> > > > > > 'Islamic Militants' is a racial term.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm not. But non-white immigrants are races that aren't white.
> > > >
> > > > ?? Gogh - AFAICT - didnt' call non white immigrants goat
> fuckers. He
> > > called
> > > > radical islamic militants goatfuckers.
> > > >
> > >
> > > "AFAICT" being the operative phrase.
> >
> > and As far as you can tell he did?
> >
>
> Yup.
Feel free to prove it then.
Since you seem to think this kind of comment is worthy of the death penalty
it behooves you to be sure the statement is fact.
>
> >
> > > > > > One way or the other nothing excuses this horrific
> act.....right?
> > > >
> > > > > Of course not. Never said it did.
> > > >
> > > > From your first post in this thread;
> > > > "Could be that he'd simply grown tired of being called a "goat
> > > fucker" (it's
> > > > funny how most of the commentary focusses on the film Van Gogh
> was
> > > making,
> > > > not his column, in which it was far less common for him to say
> > > "Muslim",
> > > > "Turk", or "Moroccan" than "Goat Fucker" when describing
> Holland's
> > > Muslim
> > > > immigrant population)."
> > > >
> > > > I don't see much a condemnation there, in fact I see an
> explanation
> > > and then
> > > > a further vilification of the victim.
> > >
> > > I don't particularly care what *you* see, Count 1. I'm not
> answerable
> > > to you. Not in the slightest.
> >
> > Did you enjoy vilifying the victim?
>
> I didn't vilify the victim.
Ohhh yes you did. You may not have meant to - but its quite clear you did.
I just didn't lie about who he was. I
> don't enjoy talking about racists, Count 1. I wish they weren't racist
> in the first place.
You love talking about 'racists' - and even pretending there are racists
when there aren't any. However I can understand your desire not to bring up
the subject, as a muslim it must be difficult to admonish people for
supposed racism when Islamic nations like Saudi Arabia have official racism.
Abdiel
Yes, except you keep changing your story--every time you demonstrate
"how and why" it's more than just a little bit different, which leads
me to believe that you're just making it up as you go along and don't
particularly believe any of it, although you'll pretend you do. So,
you know, you don't look like a racist.
The thing is though, Count 1, it's the sentence you initially uttered
that makes you a racist; what you've said about it since hasn't changed
what you originally said in the slightest.
> > > > > > > but surely you're not suggesting
> > > > > > > 'Islamic Militants' is a racial term.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'm not. But non-white immigrants are races that aren't
white.
> > > > >
> > > > > ?? Gogh - AFAICT - didnt' call non white immigrants goat
> > fuckers. He
> > > > called
> > > > > radical islamic militants goatfuckers.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > "AFAICT" being the operative phrase.
> > >
> > > and As far as you can tell he did?
> > >
> >
> > Yup.
>
>
> Feel free to prove it then.
>
> Since you seem to think this kind of comment is worthy of the death
penalty
> it behooves you to be sure the statement is fact.
>
When did I seem to think this kind of comment is worthy of the death
penalty, Count 1?
If the victim's vilified, it's because he called non-white immigrants
to Holland "goat fuckers." I didn't do that for him--he did that for
himself.
> I just didn't lie about who he was. I
> > don't enjoy talking about racists, Count 1. I wish they weren't
racist
> > in the first place.
>
> You love talking about 'racists' - and even pretending there are
racists
> when there aren't any.
Because I *do* talk about racists, even those who redefine what they
say (and even out-and-out lie) so it doesn't seem racist, doesn't mean
I particularly like it. I'd much rather they weren't racist in the
first place. You, for instance: since you don't seem like a complete
and utter mental midget, hearing you say blatantly racist things like
"Arabs contribute nothing of significance to humanity" causes me grief,
because it indicates to me that racism isn't bound only to a severe
lack of intelligence.
> However I can understand your desire not to bring up
> the subject, as a muslim it must be difficult to admonish people for
> supposed racism when Islamic nations like Saudi Arabia have official
racism.
That doesn't make any sense. Please re-submit once you've become
coherent.
--A
Count 1
> When did I seem to think this kind of comment is worthy of the death
> penalty, Count 1?
In your initial post.
> If the victim's vilified, it's because he called non-white immigrants
> to Holland "goat fuckers." I didn't do that for him--he did that for
> himself.
No - he did not call non white immigrants to Holland goatfuckers. Those
words never left his mouth. He did call Radical Islamic fundamentalists
moving to holland goat fuckers. He also called them 'fifth columnists'.
However this dead person did seek to highlight this point on this board. You
did.
> Because I *do* talk about racists, even those who redefine what they
> say (and even out-and-out lie) so it doesn't seem racist, doesn't mean
> I particularly like it. I'd much rather they weren't racist in the
> first place. You, for instance: since you don't seem like a complete
> and utter mental midget, hearing you say blatantly racist things like
> "Arabs contribute nothing of significance to humanity" causes me grief,
> because it indicates to me that racism isn't bound only to a severe
> lack of intelligence.
Eventually - one day, I don't know when - the realization that the term
'arab cultures' is not a racist statement is gonna hit you like a brick
between the eyes.
> That doesn't make any sense. Please re-submit once you've become
> coherent.
It made perfect sense Abdiel. This subsequent declaration of non
comprehension is merely a vapid attempt to avoid the implications.
What - exactly - is your point for jumping into this thread Abdiel? What
are you contributing to this discussion?
Is it your argument that van Gogh's death is understandable? Are you saying
if people insult other people by referring to possible bestiality they
deserve to be killed in extrajudicial slaughterings?
Are you saying that racism warrants the death penalty? Are you attempting
to get us to understand this deranged phsychpath for Allah reasoning for
killing an innocent man?
Abdiel
Count 1 wrote:
> > When did I seem to think this kind of comment is worthy of the
death
> > penalty, Count 1?
>
> In your initial post.
>
Where in my initial post did I say this kind of comment is worthy of
the death penalty, Count 1?
> > If the victim's vilified, it's because he called non-white
immigrants
> > to Holland "goat fuckers." I didn't do that for him--he did that
for
> > himself.
>
> No - he did not call non white immigrants to Holland goatfuckers.
Those
> words never left his mouth. He did call Radical Islamic
fundamentalists
> moving to holland goat fuckers. He also called them 'fifth
columnists'.
>
How do you know?
> However this dead person did seek to highlight this point on this
board. You
> did.
>
Again: this doesn't make sense. Please re-submit once it does.
> > Because I *do* talk about racists, even those who redefine what
they
> > say (and even out-and-out lie) so it doesn't seem racist, doesn't
mean
> > I particularly like it. I'd much rather they weren't racist in the
> > first place. You, for instance: since you don't seem like a
complete
> > and utter mental midget, hearing you say blatantly racist things
like
> > "Arabs contribute nothing of significance to humanity" causes me
grief,
> > because it indicates to me that racism isn't bound only to a severe
> > lack of intelligence.
>
> Eventually - one day, I don't know when - the realization that the
term
> 'arab cultures' is not a racist statement is gonna hit you like a
brick
> between the eyes.
>
"Arab cultures" isn't a racist statement. Saying that Arabs contribute
nothing of any significance to humanity is a racist statement. I know
you don't believe it's a racist statement, but you believe that because
you've defined "racist" as "Something I'm not." Once you see that
racism is much, much more than the simplistic and myopic definition you
cling to like a lifebuoy, you'll see how what you say isn't only
stupid. It's also racist, and blatantly so.
> > That doesn't make any sense. Please re-submit once you've become
> > coherent.
>
> It made perfect sense Abdiel. This subsequent declaration of non
> comprehension is merely a vapid attempt to avoid the implications.
>
Why, then, did you snip it out?
> What - exactly - is your point for jumping into this thread Abdiel?
What
> are you contributing to this discussion?
>
An understanding of what Gogh was all about. You were painting him as
a martyr for free speech. He's not. He's a bigot and a racist who was
murdered, unjustifiably, by a person who was deeply offended by the
deeply offensive things he said, and who took that deep offence to an
unjustifiable, reprehensible, reptillian-brain level.
> Is it your argument that van Gogh's death is understandable? Are you
saying
> if people insult other people by referring to possible bestiality
they
> deserve to be killed in extrajudicial slaughterings?
>
> Are you saying that racism warrants the death penalty? Are you
attempting
> to get us to understand this deranged phsychpath for Allah reasoning
for
> killing an innocent man?
No, I've never said any of that--that's just your own preconceptions of
what you *think* I'm saying. What you think and what actually *is* are
very often two different things. This provides no exception.
I'm trying to get you to understand that calling Muslims "goat fuckers"
isn't "dissent" (as you originally put it) of Islam. It's just stupid,
lowbrow provocation. It shouldn't have provoked murder, but it
certainly wasn't intended to provoke Islamic reform.
--A
Count 1
>
> Count 1 wrote:
> > > When did I seem to think this kind of comment is worthy of the
> death
> > > penalty, Count 1?
> >
> > In your initial post.
> >
>
> Where in my initial post did I say this kind of comment is worthy of
> the death penalty, Count 1?
You didn't say it. You created the impression as indicated in the word
'seem'.
> > > If the victim's vilified, it's because he called non-white
> immigrants
> > > to Holland "goat fuckers." I didn't do that for him--he did that
> for
> > > himself.
> >
> > No - he did not call non white immigrants to Holland goatfuckers.
> Those
> > words never left his mouth. He did call Radical Islamic
> fundamentalists
> > moving to holland goat fuckers. He also called them 'fifth
> columnists'.
> >
>
> How do you know?
I tend to have some knowledge of the discussions I engage in.
>
> > However this dead person did seek to highlight this point on this
> board. You
> > did.
> >
>
> Again: this doesn't make sense. Please re-submit once it does.
Substitute the first 'did' for 'didn't'.
> > Eventually - one day, I don't know when - the realization that the
> term
> > 'arab cultures' is not a racist statement is gonna hit you like a
> brick
> > between the eyes.
> >
>
> "Arab cultures" isn't a racist statement.
Thank you. No go waaaaay back to my original question and answer it if you
want to.
> > > That doesn't make any sense. Please re-submit once you've become
> > > coherent.
> >
> > It made perfect sense Abdiel. This subsequent declaration of non
> > comprehension is merely a vapid attempt to avoid the implications.
> >
>
> Why, then, did you snip it out?
I enjoy snipping posts to highlight silliness on the part of my
co-discussionists.
> > What - exactly - is your point for jumping into this thread Abdiel?
> What
> > are you contributing to this discussion?
> >
>
> An understanding of what Gogh was all about.
Why?
You were painting him as
> a martyr for free speech. He's not.
Yes - he is.
He's a bigot and a racist who was
> murdered, unjustifiably, by a person who was deeply offended by the
> deeply offensive things he said, and who took that deep offence to an
> unjustifiable, reprehensible, reptillian-brain level.
How is calling radical Islamist fundamentalists goat fuckers offensive
unless one is a radical islamist fundamentalist?
> > Is it your argument that van Gogh's death is understandable? Are you
> saying
> > if people insult other people by referring to possible bestiality
> they
> > deserve to be killed in extrajudicial slaughterings?
> >
> > Are you saying that racism warrants the death penalty? Are you
> attempting
> > to get us to understand this deranged phsychpath for Allah reasoning
> for
> > killing an innocent man?
>
> No, I've never said any of that--
I know you didn't say any of that....the primary problem is you aren't
really saying anything at all.
that's just your own preconceptions of
> what you *think* I'm saying.
No - it was a series of questions designed for me to better understand your
motiviations.
What you think and what actually *is* are
> very often two different things. This provides no exception.
I think this is an example of a Muslim fanatic deciding his offensive is
more important than a person's life. Do you wish to challenge that
perception?
> I'm trying to get you to understand that calling Muslims "goat fuckers"
> isn't "dissent" (as you originally put it) of Islam. It's just stupid,
> lowbrow provocation.
If in fact it ever happened. I still haven't seen a quote from him calling
muslims goat fuckers.
It shouldn't have provoked murder, but it
> certainly wasn't intended to provoke Islamic reform.
No - it certainly wasn't. And mischaracterizing his words is meant to
provoke what, exactly?
Count 1
> a martyr for free speech. He's not. He's a bigot and a racist
Wanted to parse this out and reply to this point singularly.
Recall what I wrote earlier;
"Which means there exists some ideologies whose followers do not have the
prerequisite coping skills to live in the west."
He did not committ a crime therefore he deserved no punishment. If you
cannot understand that a right to free speech means you have to accept being
offended by other people's words then you don't have what it takes to join
the west.
It doesn't matter if Gogh was a racist or a bigot. Those are not issues
here. Any attempt to raise them is an attempt to blame and villify the
victim and mitigate the murderer's crimes.
The issue surrounding this murder is much bigger than who Van Gogh was or
might have been. Do you know what the issue is?
Abdiel
Count 1 wrote:
> "Abdiel" <abdi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1099687136.6...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > Count 1 wrote:
> > > > When did I seem to think this kind of comment is worthy of the
> > death
> > > > penalty, Count 1?
> > >
> > > In your initial post.
> > >
> >
> > Where in my initial post did I say this kind of comment is worthy
of
> > the death penalty, Count 1?
>
> You didn't say it. You created the impression as indicated in the
word
> 'seem'.
>
More like "seems to me." Which is different than "seem." "Seem" would
indicate that any person would get that impression.
>
>
> > > > If the victim's vilified, it's because he called non-white
> > immigrants
> > > > to Holland "goat fuckers." I didn't do that for him--he did
that
> > for
> > > > himself.
> > >
> > > No - he did not call non white immigrants to Holland goatfuckers.
> > Those
> > > words never left his mouth. He did call Radical Islamic
> > fundamentalists
> > > moving to holland goat fuckers. He also called them 'fifth
> > columnists'.
> > >
> >
> > How do you know?
>
> I tend to have some knowledge of the discussions I engage in.
>
So you have knowledge that Gogh never called non-white immigrants to
Holland "goat fuckers"? How'd you come across that knowledge?
> >
> > > However this dead person did seek to highlight this point on this
> > board. You
> > > did.
> > >
> >
> > Again: this doesn't make sense. Please re-submit once it does.
>
> Substitute the first 'did' for 'didn't'.
>
Okay. So he didn't highlight the point on USENET. It's probably
because he's dead. What's the point?
>
> > > Eventually - one day, I don't know when - the realization that
the
> > term
> > > 'arab cultures' is not a racist statement is gonna hit you like a
> > brick
> > > between the eyes.
> > >
> >
> > "Arab cultures" isn't a racist statement.
>
> Thank you. No go waaaaay back to my original question and answer it
if you
> want to.
>
But saying that Arabs contribute nothing of significance to humanity is
a racist statement. You did say that Arabs contribute nothing of
significance to humanity, remember?
>
> > > > That doesn't make any sense. Please re-submit once you've
become
> > > > coherent.
> > >
> > > It made perfect sense Abdiel. This subsequent declaration of non
> > > comprehension is merely a vapid attempt to avoid the
implications.
> > >
> >
> > Why, then, did you snip it out?
>
> I enjoy snipping posts to highlight silliness on the part of my
> co-discussionists.
>
That doesn't make any sense either.
>
>
> > > What - exactly - is your point for jumping into this thread
Abdiel?
> > What
> > > are you contributing to this discussion?
> > >
> >
> > An understanding of what Gogh was all about.
>
> Why?
>
Because you don't know.
>
> You were painting him as
> > a martyr for free speech. He's not.
>
> Yes - he is.
>
>
> He's a bigot and a racist who was
> > murdered, unjustifiably, by a person who was deeply offended by the
> > deeply offensive things he said, and who took that deep offence to
an
> > unjustifiable, reprehensible, reptillian-brain level.
>
> How is calling radical Islamist fundamentalists goat fuckers
offensive
> unless one is a radical islamist fundamentalist?
>
How about talking about what Gogh actually said, not what you'd prefer
he'd said? He called Muslims, not just Islamist fundamentalists, "goat
fuckers." It's like saying "nigger" only applies to gangstas in Watts.
>
> > > Is it your argument that van Gogh's death is understandable? Are
you
> > saying
> > > if people insult other people by referring to possible bestiality
> > they
> > > deserve to be killed in extrajudicial slaughterings?
> > >
> > > Are you saying that racism warrants the death penalty? Are you
> > attempting
> > > to get us to understand this deranged phsychpath for Allah
reasoning
> > for
> > > killing an innocent man?
> >
> > No, I've never said any of that--
>
> I know you didn't say any of that....the primary problem is you
aren't
> really saying anything at all.
>
Then why are you responding to nothing at all?
> that's just your own preconceptions of
> > what you *think* I'm saying.
>
> No - it was a series of questions designed for me to better
understand your
> motiviations.
>
Then why didn't you just ask what my motivations are? You didn't need
to waste bandwidth on that tangent.
> What you think and what actually *is* are
> > very often two different things. This provides no exception.
>
> I think this is an example of a Muslim fanatic deciding his offensive
is
> more important than a person's life. Do you wish to challenge that
> perception?
>
No. I challenge your initial post, which implies that Gogh hadn't done
anything offensive, but merely offered a dissenting view of Islam.
Gogh wilfully intended to offend people by degrading them, not educate
people by teaching them, the rights of both being fully enshrined in
the Dutch constitution. It wasn't right to shoot Gogh. It's also not
right to pretend he's anything other than what he is.
> > I'm trying to get you to understand that calling Muslims "goat
fuckers"
> > isn't "dissent" (as you originally put it) of Islam. It's just
stupid,
> > lowbrow provocation.
>
> If in fact it ever happened. I still haven't seen a quote from him
calling
> muslims goat fuckers.
>
> It shouldn't have provoked murder, but it
> > certainly wasn't intended to provoke Islamic reform.
>
> No - it certainly wasn't. And mischaracterizing
What mischaracterization, Count 1? Aren't you the one who said he only
ever referred to Islamist terrorists as goat fuckers? How on earth
would you possibly know that?
> his words is meant to
> provoke what, exactly?
"Why would I not be allowed to call a Muslim a goat fucker?"
--Theo Van Gogh, fr. http://www.theovangogh.nl/
--A
Abdiel
Count 1 wrote:
> > An understanding of what Gogh was all about. You were painting him
as
> > a martyr for free speech. He's not. He's a bigot and a racist
>
> Wanted to parse this out and reply to this point singularly.
>
> Recall what I wrote earlier;
>
> "Which means there exists some ideologies whose followers do not have
the
> prerequisite coping skills to live in the west."
>
Including, it would seem, the fellow who shot Gogh. And Gogh.
> He did not committ a crime therefore he deserved no punishment. If
you
> cannot understand that a right to free speech means you have to
accept being
> offended by other people's words then you don't have what it takes to
join
> the west.
>
> It doesn't matter if Gogh was a racist or a bigot.
Sure it does. Goes to "motive." The story changes from "Free-Speech
Martyr Burned on Pyre of Tolerance" to "Bigot Shot By Bigot."
> Those are not issues
> here. Any attempt to raise them is an attempt to blame and villify
the
> victim
Calling Muslims "goat fuckers" vilifies Gogh, and he did that, not me.
When you say racist things, people tend to think you're a racist.
> and mitigate the murderer's crimes.
>
I'm not trying to mitigate the murderer's crimes. I've never once even
hinted that I believed the murderer's crime was anything but crime,
notwithstanding any impression *you* might have had about what I say.
> The issue surrounding this murder is much bigger than who Van Gogh
was or
> might have been. Do you know what the issue is?
I know both what it is and what you want it to be. In the two
headlines above, you're still dreaming of the first, when the reality's
a lot closer to the second.
--A
Richard Dell
news:6482ad0.04110...@posting.google.com...
> In other words, we got a murder victim here and the potential of
> suspects probably most of the Netherland's population?
>
> There's also the possibility that the murder victim was used to make
> people fight each other, but since maybe what his said and do aren't
> enough, the people that used the murder victim probably murdered him,
> thinking that maybe he would be more rewarding as dead person rather a
> living person.
The Muslims are merely doing their thing, in the footsteps of their prophet.
There were no turbulent filmmakers in Muhammad's time, but there were poets,
and some of them gave him as much grief as van Gogh apparently did to the
young Moroccan. After the battle of Badr, as Muhammad scrutinized his
prisoners, his eye fell fiercely on one al-Nadr whom he had never forgiven
for captivating the audiences in Mecca with more entertaining tales. He was
beheaded on the spot. In Medina Muhammad ordered the murder of Asma bint
Marwan, a poetess who made fun of him in verse. Anticipating Henry II's
outburst, Muhammad exclaimed, "Will no one rid me of this daughter of
Marwan?" One of his followers duly did, that same night, stabbing her as she
nursed her youngest child. One Abu Afak, supposedly over a hundred years
old, criticized Muhammad in verse. The latter simply commented, "Who will
deal with this rascal for me?" Abu Afak did not see the morning. The hatred
of artistically inspired detractors was obsessive with Muhammad, and
reflected in the Kuranic verdict that poets are inspired by Satan and have
gone astray, possessed and no better than soothsayers.
Short of a belated, massive, and unexpected recovery of its spiritual and
moral strength-impossible under Prime Minister Balkenende and his ilk-Europe
faces submission to Muhammad and eventual acceptance of sacred Arab places
as its own. It can be saved, maybe, if it rises against its rulers, against
the Balkenendes, Blairs, and a thousand clones who facilitate the advance of
Islam by destroying every trace of the sense of community of European
nations based on kinship, faith, and culture. If it does, if the youths
arrested in The Hague provide an example and a lead for a million others,
Theo van Gogh will not have died in vain.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/003828.php
Tojo
"Richard Dell" <rfd...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:418ff3e1$0$106$65c6...@mercury.nildram.net...
pien
> The Muslims are merely doing their thing, in the footsteps of their prophet.
That's rubbish. There is a big difference between being a fundamentalist
and being a Muslim. In fact, those two things have nothing to do with
each other.
--
pien
http://www.phil.uu.nl/~pien/blog/
M?rten
> M?rten wrote:
> > How many more Europeans need to be murdered by filthy moslum
> > immigrants before they wake up?
>
> Well - I can think of one: a Dutch racist film maker. Can you name a
> second? It'll take a few more before Europeans take up your Nazi agenda.
> In fact, a lot more Muslims have been attacked by racist Europeans than
> the other way around.
He wasn't a racist, islame isn't a race. He was trying to show to you
fucking idiots how badly women those pigs of allah treat women and
girls and since you are so "peace and love", why do you not speak out
on this topic?
M?rten
> Turd Sandwich wrote:
> > "M?rten" <morte...@yahoo.se> wrote...
> >
> >> "Western Society", being Europe? Here in America, we don't care for
> >> the pigs an dogs of allah, either...
> >
> >
> > "Western" means European AND North American culture, since the 3 countries
> > of North America are descendents of European colonies. "Western" is used
> > to distinguish our culture from those of Asia, Mid-East, Africa, etc.
> > And I am an American too, I was just commenting on Holland's progressive
> > and liberal culture and how totalitarian Muslims have abused it.
>
> No - you refused to say how "Muslims have abused it". So go ahead. Other
> than this unfortunate killing of a known racist, what else makes you say
> this?
Which fucking rock have you been living under?
They broadcast "call to prayer" from loudspeakers which violates
others rights to peace and freedom from religion, they preach HATE and
MURDER in their mosques (which they demand the government pay for)
which violates the right to life of many people, they are demanding
"sharia courts" which would violate the rights to fair trials for many
molsums (some who may not even want to be moslum, but are forced to
be), ETC., ETC. ETC.
M?rten
Then why are those filthy pigs calling for the murders of anyone who
says a bad word about islame?
M?rten
> The Devil's AdvocateŠ wrote:
> > On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 08:24:40 -0500, Voice Of Reason <> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>This is how Muslims deal with free speech.
> >
> >
> > http://forum.protestwarrior.com/avatars/1524096839418974fd28e4e.jpg
>
> Jesus... an African American posting racist propaganda... now I've seen
> everything.
ISLAME IS NOT A RACE - THERE IS ONLY ONE RACE, HUMAN. ISLAME IS A
RELIGION, A FUCKING FAIRY TALE. THERE IS NO GOD OR ALLAH.
M?rten
> Bush is the AntiChrist!! (was: I report, you decide) wrote:
> > Karl wrote:
> >
> >> The Devil's AdvocateŠ wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 08:24:40 -0500, Voice Of Reason <> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> This is how Muslims deal with free speech.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> http://forum.protestwarrior.com/avatars/1524096839418974fd28e4e.jpg
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Jesus... an African American posting racist propaganda... now I've
> >> seen everything.
> >
>
> Yes - we're acquainted. He's not a bad guy, just easily led.
Easily led?
As you were into the far outer limits of liberalism?
M?rten
> On Thu, 04 Nov 2004 18:14:43 +0000, Karl
> <petersenk...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >Bush is the AntiChrist!! (was: I report, you decide) wrote:
> >> Karl wrote:
> >>
> >>> The Devil's AdvocateŠ wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 08:24:40 -0500, Voice Of Reason <> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> This is how Muslims deal with free speech.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> http://forum.protestwarrior.com/avatars/1524096839418974fd28e4e.jpg
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Jesus... an African American posting racist propaganda... now I've
> >>> seen everything.
> >>
> >> How do you know he is African American? Did he/she tell you this?
> >
> >Yes - we're acquainted. He's not a bad guy, just easily led.
>
> world country. They have given in to the Dark Side.
MOST are forced, they can't leave islame, for fear of being murdered.
Which is why having islame in Europe is so fucking stupid...
They should be told the truth, upon arrival - THERE IS NO ALLAH. Get
an education and make something of your life. Take that fucking ugly
thing off your head - no one can force you toe waer it anymore.
All those goddam left-wing liberals should be out there telling those
brainswashed fools - THE TRUTH, instead of apologising for the murders
those moslum dogs commit/will commit.
M?rten
> "฿ละลงง" <nada...@nospam.net> wrote in message news:10og5su...@corp.supernews.com...
> > "GWhyte" <gwhyt...@rogers.com> wrote in message
> > news:7Z6dnUaO8O1...@rogers.com...
> > >
> http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20041102.wdutch2/BNStory/Front/
> > >
> > > Dutch filmmaker who criticized Islam gunned down
>
> He DIED for "HIS_ART" and not for Islam!
Is that what all you filthy pigs of allah use for an excuse? HIS
ART???
He was murdered because he showed how awfully women and girls are
treated by you scumbag moslum animals.
The rest of the world knows it, so stop with your lame excuses.
XyZmass::.
> saeidb...@hotmail.com (XyZmass::.) wrote in message news:<9bcc1990.04110...@posting.google.com>...
> > "฿ละลงง" <nada...@nospam.net> wrote in message news:10og5su...@corp.supernews.com...
> > > "GWhyte" <gwhyt...@rogers.com> wrote in message
> > > news:7Z6dnUaO8O1...@rogers.com...
> > > >
> > http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20041102.wdutch2/BNStory/Front/
> > > >
> > > > Dutch filmmaker who criticized Islam gunned down
> >
> > He DIED for "HIS_ART" and not for Islam!
>
>
> Is that what all you filthy pigs of allah use for an excuse? HIS
> ART???
>
U should DIE for Ur art 2!!!
A "piss" artists and Being a LOAD&BARKING dog/....
U is a KIKE init??? artist!
Please do not be so "gay"...cheers and thx and god bless all "maggots"
Karl
Which filthy pigs? Give me a name.
Karl
> Karl <petersenk...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message news:<cmdrh7$tmn$1...@news.freedom2surf.net>...
>
>>M?rten wrote:
>>
>>>How many more Europeans need to be murdered by filthy moslum
>>>immigrants before they wake up?
>>
>>Well - I can think of one: a Dutch racist film maker. Can you name a
>>second? It'll take a few more before Europeans take up your Nazi agenda.
>>In fact, a lot more Muslims have been attacked by racist Europeans than
>>the other way around.
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> He wasn't a racist, islame isn't a race.
He was a racist - he outbursts were well known against various racial
groups.