This is both an invitation and a challenge to religionists to provide objective verifiable evidence that there is some REAL God that we need to cater to.
A primary one is that there are thousands of different gods and god beliefs. Any REAL god would surely make it abundantly clear, that he is the real god and all the others are fakes. He would surely use his unlimited power to expose and eliminate all the fakes. Why would he permit his creations to be misled by all these false gods?
If there was a REAL god, would he not destroy the thousands of false gods and
establish his authenticity, wishes and commands directly from his heaven.
If man, created by god, can communicate with the whole world by Phone, Radio, the Internet and TV it obviously would be no problem for any real god to communicate directly with his creations without thousands of intermediates of questionable veracity.
Why would not a real god announce directly and authoritatively from his heaven,
that he is the real god and what documents are authentic and which are fakes and
destroy them? He certainly should want to prevent his creations from being.
deceived and mislead
Although billions of people have died there is not a single 'authenticated and proven'
case where anyone of them has ever communicated with their living children,
spouses or friends.
Why would god not allow these souls in his heaven to explain and confirm the
virtues, benefits and even the existence of his heaven? Logic says it is because they
don't exist except in peoples imaginations!
Religions are ALL based on ancient myths and tales and NO god has directly AUTHENTICATED ANY of them.
Man can directly communicate with the whole world via TV, the Internet, Phone and Radio and the postal service. IF there is a real god, why does he not announce to the whole world from his heaven, by at least equally effective means, that he is the real god and all the others are fakes? And why does he not tell us clearly and directly what he expects from us instead of using hundreds of vague, ancient, contradictory, unoriginal documents, compiled by different religions and hundreds of men of unknown veracity? Why does he not expose and smite all the false gods and doctrines?
An all powerful creator of this huge Universe would have no need or desire for people to sing hymns and waste their time on their knees in adulation and building expensive churches that no god ever visits from his elegant heaven. This type of thing is the practice of greedy leaders with a need to satisfy their selfish egos.
An all powerful creator of this huge Universe and everything in it would have no need or desire to create, Sin, Devils, Evil, Spirits or Hells
There would be no need for basing ones life on 'FAITH' and the preaching's of errant selfish men because we would have direct communication and authentification directly from this all powerful REAL god
There is no evidence that any of these gods communicate with any honest or fully sane persons.
No dead fathers, mothers relatives or friends ever verify there heaven or hell with their living siblings or friends.
There is an overwhelming multitude of religions and god beliefs.
They can't all be true and no REAL god would permit this massive deception of his creations.
Major religions;
Baha'i Faith Buddhism Adventist Jehovah's Witnesses British Israelism Southern Baptists American Baptists
Catholics
Christina religions - dozens of them Christian Science Amish Brethren Mennonites Quakers Shakers Plymouth Brethren Fundamentalists Twin Oaks Confucianism Hinduism Islam Jainism Judaism Shinto Sikhism Taoism Vodun (Voodoo) Neopagan Religious Faiths Asatru (Norse Paganism) Druidism Goddess Worship Wicca Witchcraft Caodaism Damanhur Community Druse Eckankar Elian Gonzalez religious movement Gnosticism Gypsies Hare Krishna - ISKCON Lukumi Macumba Mowahhidoon Native American Spirituality Rom, Roma, Romani, Rroma, (a.k.a. Gypsies) Santeria Elian Gonzalez religious movement Satanism; The Church of Satan Scientology Unitarian-Universalism The Creativity Movement Zoroastrianism
Any all powerful creator, all loving and caring intelligent designer, would not create Plagues, Tsunamis, Tornadoes, Volcanic Eruptions, Earth Quakes, Wars, Cancers and hundreds of debilitating diseases, serious body malfunctions and starvation all of which punish people indiscriminately regardless of their behavior or religious beliefs. If he did he would not be an all loving all caring god but a brutal malevolent creature or nothing at all. There are 12,000 known diseases that torture and kill man. The reality is that no all loving and all powerful god would create or permit these diseases to punish men of all religious persuasion and particularly totally INNOCENT CHILDREN.
Logic and common sense that refutes the existence of any omnipotent gods;
Is god willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then where does evil come from? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him a god?
Religion is things hoped for but not yet seen or proven. Science is things seen and proven but not necessarily hoped for.
There is NO objective verifiable evidence that any Gods, Heavens, Sin, Hells, Devils or Angels exist except in the imaginations of man. These beliefs are held to help people deal with their panic fear of death and what comes after.
When there is NO objective verifiable evidence for something's existence it is logical to assume it does no exist. The LACK of evidence is not evidence of something's existence.
The objective evidence is that no gods created man but quite the opposite; that man created imaginary gods! (thousands of them!)
On Thu, 8 May 2008 10:50:31 +0100, "Bill M" <wm...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>5-5-2008
>This is both an invitation and a challenge to religionists to provide >objective verifiable evidence that there is some REAL God that we need to >cater to.
It would no longer be a matter of faith if we could empirically prove God's existence, but we can get closer to a proof than is possible in many other situations which we accept and get along with. Can you "prove" that the sun won't super nova soon? My "belief" is that it won't, and I'll go on living for several more years.
>A primary one is that there are thousands of different gods and god beliefs. >Any REAL god would surely make it abundantly clear, that he is the real god >and all the others are fakes. He would surely use his unlimited power to >expose and eliminate all the fakes. Why would he permit his creations to be >misled by all these false gods?
How would the one true God teach us to avoid falling into worshiping these false gods if he imposed the restrictions upon us that you suggest? The main reason for our participation in this mortal phase of "hands-on" learning is to mature us into reliable, sovereign, immortal individuals who won't blunder back into these things again. Learning by trial and error is a very effective means of developing and maturing us into the kind of beings God wants us to become.
>If there was a REAL god, would he not destroy the thousands of false gods >and
No, He would let us have our go at these false gods and in the process we are expected to learn and mature. We don't have to become personally involved in worshiping these false gods, but we do have to observe and learn from the long term effects upon those who do worship them.
>establish his authenticity, wishes and commands directly from his heaven.
If God actually did this, we would be nothing more than puppets. This isn't what God wants us to be. The goal for each of us is to mature into absolute sovereign, immortal beings who won't ever want to go back and explore these false gods and other such things again.
>If man, created by god, can communicate with the whole world by Phone, >Radio, the Internet and TV it obviously would be no problem for any real god >to communicate directly with his creations without thousands of >intermediates of questionable veracity.
God could indeed communicate with us as you describe, but that would intimidate us into compliance, reducing us to nothing more than a bunch of puppets.
>Why would not a real god announce directly and authoritatively from his >heaven,
>that he is the real god and what documents are authentic and which are fakes >and
>destroy them? He certainly should want to prevent his creations from being.
>deceived and mislead
>Although billions of people have died there is not a single 'authenticated >and proven'
>case where anyone of them has ever communicated with their living children,
>spouses or friends.
>Why would god not allow these souls in his heaven to explain and confirm the
>virtues, benefits and even the existence of his heaven? Logic says it is >because they
>don't exist except in peoples imaginations!
>Religions are ALL based on ancient myths and tales and NO god has directly >AUTHENTICATED ANY of them.
>Man can directly communicate with the whole world via TV, the Internet, >Phone and Radio and the postal service. IF there is a real god, why does he >not announce to the whole world from his heaven, by at least equally >effective means, that he is the real god and all the others are fakes? And >why does he not tell us clearly and directly what he expects from us instead >of using hundreds of vague, ancient, contradictory, unoriginal documents, >compiled by different religions and hundreds of men of unknown veracity? Why >does he not expose and smite all the false gods and doctrines?
>An all powerful creator of this huge Universe would have no need or desire >for people to sing hymns and waste their time on their knees in adulation >and building expensive churches that no god ever visits from his elegant >heaven. This type of thing is the practice of greedy leaders with a need to >satisfy their selfish egos.
It isn't God who "needs" us to sing hymns to Him. It is we who need this as a form of emotionally stabilizing influence that will help us get along from day to day.
>An all powerful creator of this huge Universe and everything in it would >have no need or desire to create, Sin, Devils, Evil, Spirits or Hells
>There would be no need for basing ones life on 'FAITH' and the preaching's >of errant selfish men because we would have direct communication and >authentification directly from this all powerful REAL god
>There is no evidence that any of these gods communicate with any honest or >fully sane persons.
>No dead fathers, mothers relatives or friends ever verify there heaven or >hell with their living siblings or friends.
>There is an overwhelming multitude of religions and god beliefs.
>They can't all be true and no REAL god would permit this massive deception >of his creations.
>Christina religions - dozens of them >Christian Science >Amish >Brethren >Mennonites >Quakers >Shakers >Plymouth Brethren >Fundamentalists >Twin Oaks >Confucianism >Hinduism >Islam >Jainism >Judaism >Shinto >Sikhism >Taoism >Vodun (Voodoo) >Neopagan Religious Faiths >Asatru (Norse Paganism) >Druidism >Goddess Worship >Wicca >Witchcraft >Caodaism >Damanhur Community >Druse >Eckankar >Elian Gonzalez religious movement >Gnosticism >Gypsies >Hare Krishna - ISKCON >Lukumi >Macumba >Mowahhidoon >Native American Spirituality >Rom, Roma, Romani, Rroma, (a.k.a. Gypsies) >Santeria Elian Gonzalez religious movement >Satanism; The Church of Satan >Scientology >Unitarian-Universalism >The Creativity Movement >Zoroastrianism
>Any all powerful creator, all loving and caring intelligent designer, would >not create Plagues, Tsunamis, Tornadoes, Volcanic Eruptions, Earth Quakes, >Wars, Cancers and hundreds of debilitating diseases, serious body >malfunctions and starvation all of which punish people indiscriminately >regardless of their behavior or religious beliefs. If he did he would not be >an all loving all caring god but a brutal malevolent creature or nothing at >all. There are 12,000 known diseases that torture and kill man. The reality >is that no all loving and all powerful god would create or permit these >diseases to punish men of all religious persuasion and particularly totally >INNOCENT CHILDREN.
>Logic and common sense that refutes the existence of any omnipotent gods;
>Is god willing to prevent evil, but not able? >Then he is not omnipotent. >Is he able, but not willing? >Then he is malevolent. >Is he both able and willing? >Then where does evil come from? >Is he neither able nor willing? >Then why call him a god?
>Religion is things hoped for but not yet seen or proven. Science is things >seen and proven but not necessarily hoped for.
>There is NO objective verifiable evidence that any Gods, Heavens, Sin, >Hells, Devils or Angels exist except in the imaginations of man. These >beliefs are held to help people deal with their panic fear of death and what >comes after.
>When there is NO objective verifiable evidence for something's existence it >is logical to assume it does no exist. The LACK of evidence is not evidence >of something's existence.
>The objective evidence is that no gods created man but quite the opposite; >that man created imaginary gods! (thousands of them!)
>>This is both an invitation and a challenge to religionists to provide >>objective verifiable evidence that there is some REAL God that we need to >>cater to.
>It would no longer be a matter of faith if we could empirically prove >God's existence,
So what?
> but we can get closer to a proof than is possible in >many other situations which we accept and get along with. Can you >"prove" that the sun won't super nova soon? My "belief" is that it >won't, and I'll go on living for several more years.
Equivocation on "believe". A standard Christian dishonest bait'n'switch from the unevidenced to the reasoned expectation based on a lifetime of evidence.
Prov 6:6 ¶Go to the ant, thou sluggard; consider her ways, and be wise.
Prov 6:9 How long wilt thou sleep, O sluggard? when wilt thou arise out of thy sleep?
Prov 13:4 The soul of the sluggard desireth, and hath nothing: but the soul of the diligent shall be made fat.
Prov 20:4 The sluggard will not plow by reason of the cold; therefore shall he beg in harvest, and have nothing.
Prov 26:16 The sluggard is wiser in his own conceit than seven men that can render a reason.
Isa 4:4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.
Nah 3:6 And I will cast abominable filth upon thee, and make thee vile, and will set thee as a gazingstock. -- Claude Hopper :)
> On Thu, 8 May 2008 10:50:31 +0100, "Bill M" <wm...@bellsouth.net> > wrote:
> >5-5-2008
> >This is both an invitation and a challenge to religionists to provide > >objective verifiable evidence that there is some REAL God that we need to > >cater to.
> It would no longer be a matter of faith if we could empirically prove > God's existence, but we can get closer to a proof than is possible in > many other situations which we accept and get along with. Can you > "prove" that the sun won't super nova soon? My "belief" is that it > won't, and I'll go on living for several more years.
> >A primary one is that there are thousands of different gods and god beliefs. > >Any REAL god would surely make it abundantly clear, that he is the real god > >and all the others are fakes. He would surely use his unlimited power to > >expose and eliminate all the fakes. Why would he permit his creations to be > >misled by all these false gods?
> How would the one true God teach us to avoid falling into worshiping > these false gods if he imposed the restrictions upon us that you > suggest?
Loonie, God has not yet imposed anything on humanity. All we see is what humanity has imposed on itself, all in the name of the gods they have made up and manipulated
GROW UP
The main reason for our participation in this mortal phase of
> "hands-on" learning is to mature us into reliable, sovereign, immortal > individuals who won't blunder back into these things again. Learning > by trial and error is a very effective means of developing and > maturing us into the kind of beings God wants us to become.
You mean like those fellas who burned heretics alive in town squares for nearly three hundred years? That kind of thing?
> >If there was a REAL god, would he not destroy the thousands of false gods > >and
> No, He would let us have our go at these false gods and in the process > we are expected to learn and mature. We don't have to become > personally involved in worshiping these false gods, but we do have to > observe and learn from the long term effects upon those who do worship > them.
> >establish his authenticity, wishes and commands directly from his heaven.
> If God actually did this, we would be nothing more than puppets.
Groan
This
> isn't what God wants us to be.
AAAAAAH an expert.
One who is privy with a god. I thought we would come down to that level pretty soon.
Well FYI were there a god that created the entire universe it would hardly need the likes of you to speek for it - right ?
The goal for each of us is to mature
> into absolute sovereign, immortal beings who won't ever want to go > back and explore these false gods and other such things again.
> >If man, created by god, can communicate with the whole world by Phone, > >Radio, the Internet and TV it obviously would be no problem for any real god > >to communicate directly with his creations without thousands of > >intermediates of questionable veracity.
> God could indeed communicate with us as you describe, but that would > intimidate us into compliance, reducing us to nothing more than a > bunch of puppets.
> >Why would not a real god announce directly and authoritatively from his > >heaven,
> >that he is the real god and what documents are authentic and which are fakes > >and
> >destroy them? He certainly should want to prevent his creations from being.
> >deceived and mislead
> >Although billions of people have died there is not a single 'authenticated > >and proven'
> >case where anyone of them has ever communicated with their living children,
> >spouses or friends.
> >Why would god not allow these souls in his heaven to explain and confirm the
> >virtues, benefits and even the existence of his heaven? Logic says it is > >because they
> >don't exist except in peoples imaginations!
> >Religions are ALL based on ancient myths and tales and NO god has directly > >AUTHENTICATED ANY of them.
> >Man can directly communicate with the whole world via TV, the Internet, > >Phone and Radio and the postal service. IF there is a real god, why does he > >not announce to the whole world from his heaven, by at least equally > >effective means, that he is the real god and all the others are fakes? And > >why does he not tell us clearly and directly what he expects from us instead > >of using hundreds of vague, ancient, contradictory, unoriginal documents, > >compiled by different religions and hundreds of men of unknown veracity? Why > >does he not expose and smite all the false gods and doctrines?
> >An all powerful creator of this huge Universe would have no need or desire > >for people to sing hymns and waste their time on their knees in adulation > >and building expensive churches that no god ever visits from his elegant > >heaven. This type of thing is the practice of greedy leaders with a need to > >satisfy their selfish egos.
> It isn't God who "needs" us to sing hymns to Him. It is we who need > this as a form of emotionally stabilizing influence that will help us > get along from day to day.
> >An all powerful creator of this huge Universe and everything in it would > >have no need or desire to create, Sin, Devils, Evil, Spirits or Hells
> >There would be no need for basing ones life on 'FAITH' and the preaching's > >of errant selfish men because we would have direct communication and > >authentification directly from this all powerful REAL god
> >There is no evidence that any of these gods communicate with any honest or > >fully sane persons.
> >No dead fathers, mothers relatives or friends ever verify there heaven or > >hell with their living siblings or friends.
> >There is an overwhelming multitude of religions and god beliefs.
> >They can't all be true and no REAL god would permit this massive deception > >of his creations.
> >Christina religions - dozens of them > >Christian Science > >Amish > >Brethren > >Mennonites > >Quakers > >Shakers > >Plymouth Brethren > >Fundamentalists > >Twin Oaks > >Confucianism > >Hinduism > >Islam > >Jainism > >Judaism > >Shinto > >Sikhism > >Taoism > >Vodun (Voodoo) > >Neopagan Religious Faiths > >Asatru (Norse Paganism) > >Druidism > >Goddess Worship > >Wicca > >Witchcraft > >Caodaism > >Damanhur Community > >Druse > >Eckankar > >Elian Gonzalez religious movement > >Gnosticism > >Gypsies > >Hare Krishna - ISKCON > >Lukumi > >Macumba > >Mowahhidoon > >Native American Spirituality > >Rom, Roma, Romani, Rroma, (a.k.a. Gypsies) > >Santeria Elian Gonzalez religious movement > >Satanism; The Church of Satan > >Scientology > >Unitarian-Universalism > >The Creativity Movement > >Zoroastrianism
> >Any all powerful creator, all loving and caring intelligent designer, would > >not create Plagues, Tsunamis, Tornadoes, Volcanic Eruptions, Earth Quakes, > >Wars, Cancers and hundreds of debilitating diseases, serious body > >malfunctions and starvation all of which punish people indiscriminately > >regardless of their behavior or religious beliefs. If he did he would not be > >an all loving all caring god but a brutal malevolent creature or nothing at > >all. There are 12,000 known diseases that torture and kill man. The reality > >is that no all loving and all powerful god would create or permit these > >diseases to punish men of all religious persuasion and particularly totally > >INNOCENT CHILDREN.
> >Logic and common sense that refutes the existence of any omnipotent gods;
> >Is god willing to prevent evil, but not able? > >Then he is not omnipotent. > >Is he able, but not willing? > >Then he is malevolent. > >Is he both able and willing? > >Then where does evil come from? > >Is he neither able nor willing? > >Then why call him a god?
> >Religion is things hoped for but not yet seen or proven. Science is things > >seen and proven but not necessarily hoped for.
> >There is NO objective verifiable evidence that any Gods, Heavens, Sin, > >Hells, Devils or Angels exist except in the imaginations of man. These > >beliefs are held to help people deal with their panic fear of death and what > >comes after.
> >When there is NO objective verifiable evidence for something's existence it > >is logical to assume it does no exist. The LACK of evidence is not evidence > >of something's existence.
> >The objective evidence is that no gods created man but quite the opposite; > >that man created imaginary gods! (thousands of them!)
> Prov 6:6 ¶Go to the ant, thou sluggard; consider her ways, and be wise.
> Prov 6:9 How long wilt thou sleep, O sluggard? when wilt thou arise out > of thy sleep?
> Prov 13:4 The soul of the sluggard desireth, and hath nothing: but the > soul of the diligent shall be made fat.
> Prov 20:4 The sluggard will not plow by reason of the cold; therefore > shall he beg in harvest, and have nothing.
> Prov 26:16 The sluggard is wiser in his own conceit than seven men > that can render a reason.
> Isa 4:4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters > of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst > thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.
> Nah 3:6 And I will cast abominable filth upon thee, and make thee > vile, and will set thee as a gazingstock. > -- > Claude Hopper :)
> ? ? Î
lovely old stuff, written by ignorant, frightened primitives. Not a god in sight
On May 8, 7:50 pm, "Bill M" <wm...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> 5-5-2008
> This is both an invitation and a challenge to religionists to provide > objective verifiable evidence that there is some REAL God that we need to > cater to.
Why? They seem quite happy to believe without any objective verifiable evidence.
Mark. -------------------------------------------- Mark Richardson. m.richardson61 AT gmail.com
Member of SMASH (Sarcastic Middle-aged Atheist with a Sense of Humor)
> On May 8, 7:50 pm, "Bill M" <wm...@bellsouth.net> wrote: >> 5-5-2008
>> This is both an invitation and a challenge to religionists to provide >> objective verifiable evidence that there is some REAL God that we need to >> cater to.
God doesn't expect you to cater to Him, He expects you to cannibalize his offspring , err, Him ; )
> Why? > They seem quite happy to believe without any objective verifiable > evidence.
> Mark. > -------------------------------------------- > Mark Richardson. m.richardson61 AT gmail.com
> Member of SMASH > (Sarcastic Middle-aged Atheist with a Sense of Humor)
