Re: Emacs's M-‹key› Notation vs Alt+‹key› Notation
David Hansen
> There's now a thread, currently at 50 posts, at gnu.emacs.help :
> http://groups.google.com/group/gnu.emacs.help/browse_frm/thread/5b81fcfd40d1f4ca/
>
> The thread got into discussion about using Alt+‹key› notation instead
> of emacs's M-‹key› notation.
>
> as a side effect of the thread, i wrote a detailed account for my
> argument here:
>
> http://xahlee.org/emacs/modernization_meta_key.html
>
> plain text version follows:
> ----------------------------------
> [...]
To push the modernization one step further:
There is a ``Clippy'' implementation in Elisp. I think it would be a
good idea to pop up a clippy buffer every now and then.
Preferable it should happen when it's clear that the users workflow is
interrupted anyway. E.g. GUD just caught a SIGSEGV or the user entered
the SPAM group in an Emacs mail reader. This ensures that Clippy gets
the attention he deserves.
This way it is no problem to educate the common novice about the
incredible complicated Emacs terminology. And finally Emacs will
integrate well into modern desktop environments.
David
xah...@gmail.com
> On Tue, 29 Jul 2008 16:13:07 -0700 (PDT) "xah...@gmail.com" <xah...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > There's now a thread, currently at 50 posts, at gnu.emacs.help :
>
> > The thread got into discussion about using Alt+‹key› notation instead
> > of emacs's M-‹key› notation.
>
> > as a side effect of the thread, i wrote a detailed account for my
> > argument here:
>
> > http://xahlee.org/emacs/modernization_meta_key.html
>
> > plain text version follows:
> > ----------------------------------
> > [...]
>
> To push the modernization one step further:
>
> There is a ``Clippy'' implementation in Elisp. I think it would be a
> good idea to pop up a clippy buffer every now and then.
>
> Preferable it should happen when it's clear that the users workflow is
> interrupted anyway. E.g. GUD just caught a SIGSEGV or the user entered
> the SPAM group in an Emacs mail reader. This ensures that Clippy gets
> the attention he deserves.
>
> This way it is no problem to educate the common novice about the
> incredible complicated Emacs terminology. And finally Emacs will
> integrate well into modern desktop environments.
>
> David
Better, is actually to drop CUA mode support, highlight selection
support, mouse support, as well as variable with font support and
image support. I think due to these features we are getting a flood of
dumb questions in recent years.
Xah
∑ http://xahlee.org/
☄
David Hansen
> Better, is actually to drop CUA mode support, highlight selection
> support, mouse support, as well as variable with font support and
> image support. I think due to these features we are getting a flood of
> dumb questions in recent years.
Brilliant! W/o the dumb questions the experienced users would have
desperately needed time to explain the Meta key to the lower and medium
experienced users.
We are so close to a solution of the ``meta problem''!
David
xah...@gmail.com
Unfortunately, Richard Stallman seems to have been influenced by dumb
users. He's actually thinking it's a good idea!
http://groups.google.com/group/gnu.emacs.bug/browse_frm/thread/c92887cbc7c6f843/
Xah
∑ http://xahlee.org/
☄
David Hansen
> Unfortunately, Richard Stallman seems to have been influenced by dumb
> users. He's actually thinking it's a good idea!
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/gnu.emacs.bug/browse_frm/thread/c92887cbc7c6f843/
Now you have to actually implement it, if you want this change. Have
fun and expect some even longer discussion on emacs-devel.
David
Joe Fineman
When I started using Emacs, in 1986, on a Sun 3, I decided that even
C- keys were silly. After all, C-x & C-h are prefixes, ESC is a
prefix equivalent to M-, so why not make a clean sweep? I wrote
enough keybindings to make one of the f keys a prefix key equivalent
to C-, and defined f keys equivalent to all the other prefixes. They
were all in a cluster on the left on that keyboard. (As for the
mouse, I thought of that as something for emergencies only.) I kept
up that attitude thru a variety of computers & keyboards, but the
advent of the Web forced me to use the mouse for some things.
Last year, however, I happened on the Kinesis keyboard, which, tho
exorbitantly expensive, puts both C- & M- (Alt) handy to both thumbs.
That caused me to go back to the original Emacs design, with shifted
keys. Indeed, I have gone the other way & made (e.g.) M-8 equivalent
to C-x 8. Now, Stallman's original vision is implemented without
acrobatics.
--
--- Joe Fineman jo...@verizon.net
||: Lust is like liquor: There are those it makes cruel & those :||
||: it makes kind. :||
xah...@gmail.com
« [ suggesting the change of notation of M- to Alt+ ]
http://groups.google.com/group/gnu.emacs.bug/browse_frm/thread/c92887cbc7c6f843/
»
David Hansen <david.han...@gmx.net> wrote:
«Now you have to actually implement it, if you want this change.»
Who gets to implement it is not important.
Also, it's wrong to say that “I” “want” this change. The change
doesn't effect me really. I've been using emacs daily since 1998, and
i don't get paid to suggest or discuss.
It's more correct to say i suggested this change because i think it is
beneficial to the emacs community.
David wrote:
«Have fun and expect some even longer discussion on emacs-devel.»
If you have good points, you are welcome to participate.
Xah
∑ http://xahlee.org/
☄
xah...@gmail.com
> When I started using Emacs, in 1986, on a Sun 3, I decided that even
> C- keys were silly. After all, C-x & C-h are prefixes, ESC is a
> prefix equivalent to M-, so why not make a clean sweep? I wrote
> enough keybindings to make one of the f keys a prefix key equivalent
> to C-, and defined f keys equivalent to all the other prefixes. They
> were all in a cluster on the left on that keyboard. (As for the
> mouse, I thought of that as something for emergencies only.) I kept
> up that attitude thru a variety of computers & keyboards, but the
> advent of the Web forced me to use the mouse for some things.
>
> Last year, however, I happened on the Kinesis keyboard, which, tho
> exorbitantly expensive, puts both C- & M- (Alt) handy to both thumbs.
> That caused me to go back to the original Emacs design, with shifted
> keys. Indeed, I have gone the other way & made (e.g.) M-8 equivalent
> to C-x 8. Now, Stallman's original vision is implemented without
> acrobatics.
Here's something Daniel Weinreb wrote about how emacs shortcuts came
to be.
Xah wrote:
«Emacs's default cursor moving shortcuts are “Ctrl+f”, “Ctrl+b”,
“Ctrl
+n”, “Ctrl+p”. The keys f, b, n, p are scattered around the
keyboard
and are not under the home row.»
Daniel wrote:
That's true. At the time Guy Steele put together the Emacs
default
key mappings, many people in the target user community (about 20
people at MIT!) were already using these key bindings. It would
have been hard to get the new Emacs bindings accepted by the
community if they differed for such basic commands. As you point
out, anyone using Emacs can very easily change this based on
their own ergonomic preferences.
Source: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.emacs/msg/0342e0bc1aa05c0d
See also:
Why Emacs's Keyboard Shortcuts Are Painful
http://xahlee.org/emacs/emacs_kb_shortcuts_pain.html
Xah
∑ http://xahlee.org/
☄
David Hansen
> Xah wrote:
> « [ suggesting the change of notation of M- to Alt+ ]
> http://groups.google.com/group/gnu.emacs.bug/browse_frm/thread/c92887cbc7c6f843/
> »
>
> David Hansen <david.han...@gmx.net> wrote:
> «Now you have to actually implement it, if you want this change.»
>
> Who gets to implement it is not important.
But I doubt it will ever be implemented unless you do it.
> Also, it's wrong to say that “I” “want” this change. The change
> doesn't effect me really. I've been using emacs daily since 1998, and
> i don't get paid to suggest or discuss.
>
> It's more correct to say i suggested this change because i think it is
> beneficial to the emacs community.
Noble motivation, and silly me thought it's all about the fun of trolling.
> David wrote:
> «Have fun and expect some even longer discussion on emacs-devel.»
>
> If you have good points, you are welcome to participate.
As long as no one touches the *Help* buffer and `kbd' I couldn't care
less.
David
xah...@gmail.com
Xah wrote:
« [ suggesting the change of notation of M- to Alt+ ]
http://groups.google.com/group/gnu.emacs.bug/browse_frm/thread/c92887cbc7c6f843/
»
David Hansen wrote: «Now you have to actually implement it, if you
want this change.»
Xah wrote:
«
Who gets to implement it is not important.
»
David wrote: «But I doubt it will ever be implemented unless you do
it.»
Thank you for your opinion.
Xah wrote:
«Also, it's wrong to say that “I” “want” this change. The change
doesn't effect me really. I've been using emacs daily since 1998, and
i don't get paid to suggest or discuss. It's more correct to say i
suggested this change because i think it is beneficial to the emacs
community. »
David wrote: «Noble motivation, and silly me thought it's all about
the fun of trolling.»
Troll is quite abused word. For example, see, for example, this essay:
On Ignoring Trolls
http://xahlee.org/UnixResource_dir/writ/troll_ignorance.html
Xah
∑ http://xahlee.org/
☄