I'm going to skip the introduction I made in the last two posts in this series. See previous posts if you want more information.
With this post I am looking at the next 16 paragraphs that David identifies on his, for Paul's Chapter One. These are the following paragraphs: 66, 67, 68, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 80, 81, 82, 83.
Here is how those paragraphs read from Paul's Chapter One of The Far Country:
"Sometimes the spiritual travelers call this region the Brahmanda, which means the egg of Brahm, and refers to the name of its Lord, Brahm. This Deity is supposed to be the supreme being of all creation by the Yogis. This is the highest world known to practically all faiths, including Christianity.
"If the yogi or other holy man claims to be a master and declares that Brahman is the highest of all creators, that this is the supreme heaven, he is not a master in the sense that we know. He is only a humble seeker under the supreme ruler of this plane, Brahman.
"This is the top of the three worlds, the physical, lower and upper Astral. It is called the first grand division of the universes...
"This is the region of the universal mind, whose power is called AUM. Hence the word Omkar, the power on this plane, which is still the negative force. The lower part of this region is that known as the Home of the Universal Mind. It is from here that all individual minds are derived, and to that region all minds must return when they are discarded during the upward flight of Soul.
"An ECK Master takes you through this world, into the next region, for only a master can be the guide, and know the path, thorny as it is. He is the recognized Lord of all.
"All other lords, rulers and peoples on every plane pay homage to Him.
"When you arrive at the border of this region the sound of Omkar is heard continuously resounding, like a great drum. You go up a hill and open a gate, enter a crooked tunnel, pass on through to the other side. Then you cross high and low hills where the vision appears to be reversed. It's as if you are traveling in reverse.
"You pass through a fort like region which is the home of the ruler, Omkar, and halt, for Soul to become adorned with the attributes of devotion and faith.
"The seeds of the traveler's karma are burned and destroyed here.
"The color of this region is that of a beautiful, setting sun. Above it is another part of the world of Omkar where you find deserts, mountains and gardens. Flowers are arranged in artistic designs everywhere.
"You will be intoxicated with joy, wandering through a splendid region of canals and streams, before coming to an ocean of water over which you can cross by bridge to the other side where there are three mountain peaks named Mer, Sumer and Kailash.
"This is a halting place for many spiritualists and mystics. Some yogis believe this to be their heaven. The miracles of the mind are performed from this section of Brahm Lok, e.g., stopping of trains, filling dry wells and healing the sick...
"There are six planes within Brahm Lok, and many sub-divisions. The chief city here is called Mersumer Kailash, named after the three peaks of Brahm Lok.
"This region is controlled by Brahm whose chief duty is to channel the great power, AUM, into the region and the worlds below.
"The function of AUM, a part of the great sound current, is to create, maintain and destroy the universes below it. It is the center of creation of the material and Astral worlds.
"Many of the great scriptures have sprung from this region, including the Vedas, Christian scriptures, Buddhist texts, to name a few. Lord Krishna as well as many other spiritual leaders make their home here."
Following are quotes from Julian Johnson's book, With A Great Master In India, pages 197-198:
"With our great Captain in command, we resume our journey. He alone knows the Way, and he alone has the key to all regions: for he has traveled them all many times, and besides, he is the recognized Lord of them all for the time being. The true Saint is king of kings, and is universally recognized as Lord because he is ONE with the Supreme. His power and authority are recognized all alone the route. All other lords, rulers and people, pay obeisance to him. Under his protection we now enter Trikuti, the second stage on our journey. Here we may rest and study for a long time, even years. There is much here to absorb attention, besides, one has to himself grow and develop before he can advance. Let us quote a brief description of this region from Soami Ji:
[NOTE: The following three paragraphs are quotes from Shiv Dayal Singh, the founder of Radhasoami, from his book the Sar Bachan.]
""Now, my dear companion, prepare to enter the second stage. Behold Trikuti, the abode of the Guru, where the sound of Onkar is heard perpetually resounding. Then you go on up and open a gate and enter the bankanal (crooked tunnel), passing on to the other end of it. Then you cross high and low hills. Now, the vision appears to be reversed, and one sees as if from the opposite side of the veil which he has penetrated. Looking upward, he passes into a fort-like region which he enters and becomes Master of it. He reigns there as lord of that region. Here the soul becomes adorned with the attributes of devotion and faith. Here the seed of all karma is burned, destroyed. You will see thick dark clouds, from which peals of thunder constantly resound. When rising above these dark clouds, behold, the entire sphere is red, with the beautiful red sun in the center imparting its color to everything.
""This is where the Guru really gives Nam; for the Master's Shabd Rup is here. This Shabd is, in fact, the Fifth Veda. Here you will see the red four-petalled lotus spoken of by the Saints, the details and colors becoming visible as one comes nearer to it. Here the bell and conch sounds are left behind and the sound of mardang (like a drum) is heard.
""After than, the soul resumes his upward journey. Now comes the sound of a huge drum, beaten incessantly. Here the soul has grasped the Primal Current, from which all creation emanates. Innumerable suns and moons are seen here and many kinds of skies, filled with stars. The soul here realizes its complete separation from Pind, and rises to the upper Brahmand, as if intoxicated with joy. He sees and traverses deserts and mountains and gardens. In the gardens are flowers arranged in artistic designs and groups everywhere. Canals and rivulets of transparent water are flowing in abundance. Then one approaches an ocean, which he crosses by means of a bridge. He then beholds the three mountains, or prominences, called Mer, Sumer and Kailash. (From these the region is named.) After this, he passes on to a region of the most unalloyed delight." [End of quote from Shiv Dayal Singh.]
"Again, necessarily, much has been omitted. Volumes could be written and still tell but little of the worlds crossed by the Saints. Much of it cannot be told in mortal language, because we have nothing like it here with which to compare it. So we must pass on along this Royal Highway of the Saints. They have given us only hints, just a word here and there. Having reached this region; the soul finds itself in possession of new powers and understanding never realized before. In fact, he has to grow as he advances. That is one reason it often takes years to reach the higher regions. He must be fitted for their higher and purer atmosphere. Each successive stage brings him just that much nearer to sainthood itself. But very few of the ancient yogis, seers and prophets, ever reached this second region. None of the founders of the great world religions ever reached it. And yet, no doubt, each one thought he had reached the highest, the abode of the Supreme. For so it appeared to him. In his delight, he could not imagine anything greater, and he had no Guru to instruct him concerning the many worlds beyond. Traveling alone, no one can hope to go beyond the upper frontiers of the first region. A few of the Yogishwars reached the second, and still fewer the third, by the aid of their gurus who had gone that far ahead of them. Beyond that none but the Saints and their disciples have ever gone. From this second region, the Vedas emanated, and consequently, they know nothing beyond it; although the Lord Krishna hints at a higher region when he tells his disciple, Arjuna, to transcend the Vedas. They believed it to be the ultimate region and its lord they accepted as the Supreme Being."
Following is the section from Julian Johnson's book, The Path of the Masters, Pages 265-266 (The Creation and Order of the Universe):
"The second grand division above downward is Brahmanda, (meaning, the egg of Brahm, as said before.) This refers to its shape and also to the Governor or Lord who is its ruler. This Brahm is supposed by most of the old rishis to be the supreme being of all creation, because they knew of no one higher. But the Saints know that there is not only one Brahm, but countless numbers of Brahms, who are governors over so many Brahmandas. For it must be understood that there are countless Andas and Brahmandas, each circling about the supreme region in its own orbit. And each of them has its own governor or ruler. Brahm was the highest God known to the ancient rishi or yogi, and so the name of Brahm is retained by the Saints to designate the ruler of the "Three Worlds," including the physical universe, the Anda and lower portion of Brahmanda, named Trikuti. The upper portion of Brahmanda is called Par Brahm.
"As said before, this grand division is mostly spirit in substance, but is mixed with a certain amount of pure, spiritualized matter. It is the finest order of matter, and that includes mind. This is called the "spiritual-material region," because spirit dominates the region. The substance of that division gradually becomes less and less concentrated as we descend toward the negative pole of creation. The lower portions
...
Interesting, Doug. I have mixed feeling about the "plagerism". For thos most part, I see the copied info as generally either common themes or insignificant fillers. However, I find the quotes where he claimed to have come from Rebazar to have been done in really poor taste... and perhaps not a great move in his part ???
> I'm going to skip the introduction I made in the last two posts in this > series. See previous posts if you want more information.
> With this post I am looking at the next 16 paragraphs that David identifies > on his, for Paul's Chapter One. These are the following paragraphs: 66, 67, > 68, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 80, 81, 82, 83.
> Here is how those paragraphs read from Paul's Chapter One of The Far > Country:
> "Sometimes the spiritual travelers call this region the Brahmanda, which > means the egg of Brahm, and refers to the name of its Lord, Brahm. This > Deity is supposed to be the supreme being of all creation by the Yogis. This > is the highest world known to practically all faiths, including > Christianity.
> "If the yogi or other holy man claims to be a master and declares that > Brahman is the highest of all creators, that this is the supreme heaven, he > is not a master in the sense that we know. He is only a humble seeker under > the supreme ruler of this plane, Brahman.
> "This is the top of the three worlds, the physical, lower and upper Astral. > It is called the first grand division of the universes...
> "This is the region of the universal mind, whose power is called AUM. Hence > the word Omkar, the power on this plane, which is still the negative force. > The lower part of this region is that known as the Home of the Universal > Mind. It is from here that all individual minds are derived, and to that > region all minds must return when they are discarded during the upward > flight of Soul.
> "An ECK Master takes you through this world, into the next region, for only > a master can be the guide, and know the path, thorny as it is. He is the > recognized Lord of all.
> "All other lords, rulers and peoples on every plane pay homage to Him.
> "When you arrive at the border of this region the sound of Omkar is heard > continuously resounding, like a great drum. You go up a hill and open a > gate, enter a crooked tunnel, pass on through to the other side. Then you > cross high and low hills where the vision appears to be reversed. It's as if > you are traveling in reverse.
> "You pass through a fort like region which is the home of the ruler, Omkar, > and halt, for Soul to become adorned with the attributes of devotion and > faith.
> "The seeds of the traveler's karma are burned and destroyed here.
> "The color of this region is that of a beautiful, setting sun. Above it is > another part of the world of Omkar where you find deserts, mountains and > gardens. Flowers are arranged in artistic designs everywhere.
> "You will be intoxicated with joy, wandering through a splendid region of > canals and streams, before coming to an ocean of water over which you can > cross by bridge to the other side where there are three mountain peaks named > Mer, Sumer and Kailash.
> "This is a halting place for many spiritualists and mystics. Some yogis > believe this to be their heaven. The miracles of the mind are performed from > this section of Brahm Lok, e.g., stopping of trains, filling dry wells and > healing the sick...
> "There are six planes within Brahm Lok, and many sub-divisions. The chief > city here is called Mersumer Kailash, named after the three peaks of Brahm > Lok.
> "This region is controlled by Brahm whose chief duty is to channel the great > power, AUM, into the region and the worlds below.
> "The function of AUM, a part of the great sound current, is to create, > maintain and destroy the universes below it. It is the center of creation of > the material and Astral worlds.
> "Many of the great scriptures have sprung from this region, including the > Vedas, Christian scriptures, Buddhist texts, to name a few. Lord Krishna as > well as many other spiritual leaders make their home here."
> Following are quotes from Julian Johnson's book, With A Great Master In > India, pages 197-198:
> "With our great Captain in command, we resume our journey. He alone knows > the Way, and he alone has the key to all regions: for he has traveled them > all many times, and besides, he is the recognized Lord of them all for the > time being. The true Saint is king of kings, and is universally recognized > as Lord because he is ONE with the Supreme. His power and authority are > recognized all alone the route. All other lords, rulers and people, pay > obeisance to him. Under his protection we now enter Trikuti, the second > stage on our journey. Here we may rest and study for a long time, even > years. There is much here to absorb attention, besides, one has to himself > grow and develop before he can advance. Let us quote a brief description of > this region from Soami Ji:
> [NOTE: The following three paragraphs are quotes from Shiv Dayal Singh, the > founder of Radhasoami, from his book the Sar Bachan.]
> ""Now, my dear companion, prepare to enter the second stage. Behold Trikuti, > the abode of the Guru, where the sound of Onkar is heard perpetually > resounding. Then you go on up and open a gate and enter the bankanal > (crooked tunnel), passing on to the other end of it. Then you cross high and > low hills. Now, the vision appears to be reversed, and one sees as if from > the opposite side of the veil which he has penetrated. Looking upward, he > passes into a fort-like region which he enters and becomes Master of it. He > reigns there as lord of that region. Here the soul becomes adorned with the > attributes of devotion and faith. Here the seed of all karma is burned, > destroyed. You will see thick dark clouds, from which peals of thunder > constantly resound. When rising above these dark clouds, behold, the entire > sphere is red, with the beautiful red sun in the center imparting its color > to everything.
> ""This is where the Guru really gives Nam; for the Master's Shabd Rup is > here. This Shabd is, in fact, the Fifth Veda. Here you will see the red > four-petalled lotus spoken of by the Saints, the details and colors becoming > visible as one comes nearer to it. Here the bell and conch sounds are left > behind and the sound of mardang (like a drum) is heard.
> ""After than, the soul resumes his upward journey. Now comes the sound of a > huge drum, beaten incessantly. Here the soul has grasped the Primal Current, > from which all creation emanates. Innumerable suns and moons are seen here > and many kinds of skies, filled with stars. The soul here realizes its > complete separation from Pind, and rises to the upper Brahmand, as if > intoxicated with joy. He sees and traverses deserts and mountains and > gardens. In the gardens are flowers arranged in artistic designs and groups > everywhere. Canals and rivulets of transparent water are flowing in > abundance. Then one approaches an ocean, which he crosses by means of a > bridge. He then beholds the three mountains, or prominences, called Mer, > Sumer and Kailash. (From these the region is named.) After this, he passes > on to a region of the most unalloyed delight." [End of quote from Shiv Dayal > Singh.]
> "Again, necessarily, much has been omitted. Volumes could be written and > still tell but little of the worlds crossed by the Saints. Much of it cannot > be told in mortal language, because we have nothing like it here with which > to compare it. So we must pass on along this Royal Highway of the Saints. > They have given us only hints, just a word here and there. Having reached > this region; the soul finds itself in possession of new powers and > understanding never realized before. In fact, he has to grow as he advances. > That is one reason it often takes years to reach the higher regions. He must > be fitted for their higher and purer atmosphere. Each successive stage > brings him just that much nearer to sainthood itself. But very few of the > ancient yogis, seers and prophets, ever reached this second region. None of > the founders of the great world religions ever reached it. And yet, no > doubt, each one thought he had reached the highest, the abode of the > Supreme. For so it appeared to him. In his delight, he could not imagine > anything greater, and he had no Guru to instruct him concerning the many > worlds beyond. Traveling alone, no one can hope to go beyond the upper > frontiers of the first region. A few of the Yogishwars reached the second, > and still fewer the third, by the aid of their gurus who had gone that far > ahead of them. Beyond that none but the Saints and their disciples have ever > gone. From this second region, the Vedas emanated, and consequently, they > know nothing beyond it; although the Lord Krishna hints at a higher region > when he tells his disciple, Arjuna, to transcend the Vedas. They believed it > to be the ultimate region and its lord they accepted as the Supreme Being."
> Following is the section from Julian Johnson's book, The Path of the > Masters, Pages 265-266 (The Creation and Order of the Universe):
> "The second grand division above downward is Brahmanda, (meaning, the egg of > Brahm, as said before.) This refers to its shape and also to the Governor or > Lord who is its ruler. This Brahm is supposed by most of the old rishis to > be the supreme being of all creation, because they knew of no one higher. > But the Saints know that there is not only one Brahm, but countless numbers > of Brahms, who are governors over so many Brahmandas. For it must be > understood that there are countless Andas and Brahmandas, each circling > about the supreme region in its own orbit. And each of them has its own > governor or ruler. Brahm was the highest God known to the ancient rishi or > yogi,
> Interesting, Doug. I have mixed feeling about the "plagerism". For thos most > part, I see the copied info as generally either common themes or > insignificant fillers. However, I find the quotes where he claimed to have > come from Rebazar to have been done in really poor taste... and perhaps not > a great move in his part ???
> What are your on that stuff ?
I agree with you that plagiarism is not the real issue. I think the fact that many felt The Far Country was a transcription of an actual dialog means this matter of plagiarism shows them a very different picture. It means the words really came from Paul's pen, with help from other authors, and not word for word from Rebazar Tarzs.
As for poor taste, I think it looks a lot differently now. I can look back at some of my early writings and see strong similarities with Paul's books. He influenced me significantly. Let's say I decided to leave ECKANKAR and start writing for some other teacher. Let's say I took some of my old writings and just re-worked them to fit with the new teachings. Now, somebody eventually sees that my writings are almost word for word from some of Paul's writings. Now it looks like I was "stealing" from ECKANKAR, and that the new teacher is just a spin-off.
It's all a matter of perspective.
I think Paul was clearly influenced by Johnson's books. He obviously liked them enough that he covered a lot of the same material, and even used very similar words in many cases, when he wrote The Far Country. However, he was also writing this at the same time as he handed Kirpal Singh his first draft of The Tiger's Fang. If Kirpal had not rejected his efforts, I believe Kirpal's students would have looked at The Far Country far differently.
On the other hand, I don't really know what Paul was thinking when he wrote this book. I do like The Far Country far more than Johnson's books, so I'm glad he wrote it. However, I do think that it is a serious negative to his popularity in the public sector. I'm not sure Paul would mind too much about that.
> > I'm going to skip the introduction I made in the last two posts in this > > series. See previous posts if you want more information.
> > With this post I am looking at the next 16 paragraphs that David > identifies > > on his, for Paul's Chapter One. These are the following paragraphs: 66, > 67, > > 68, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 80, 81, 82, 83.
> > Here is how those paragraphs read from Paul's Chapter One of The Far > > Country:
> > "Sometimes the spiritual travelers call this region the Brahmanda, which > > means the egg of Brahm, and refers to the name of its Lord, Brahm. This > > Deity is supposed to be the supreme being of all creation by the Yogis. > This > > is the highest world known to practically all faiths, including > > Christianity.
> > "If the yogi or other holy man claims to be a master and declares that > > Brahman is the highest of all creators, that this is the supreme heaven, > he > > is not a master in the sense that we know. He is only a humble seeker > under > > the supreme ruler of this plane, Brahman.
> > "This is the top of the three worlds, the physical, lower and upper > Astral. > > It is called the first grand division of the universes...
> > "This is the region of the universal mind, whose power is called AUM. > Hence > > the word Omkar, the power on this plane, which is still the negative > force. > > The lower part of this region is that known as the Home of the Universal > > Mind. It is from here that all individual minds are derived, and to that > > region all minds must return when they are discarded during the upward > > flight of Soul.
> > "An ECK Master takes you through this world, into the next region, for > only > > a master can be the guide, and know the path, thorny as it is. He is the > > recognized Lord of all.
> > "All other lords, rulers and peoples on every plane pay homage to Him.
> > "When you arrive at the border of this region the sound of Omkar is heard > > continuously resounding, like a great drum. You go up a hill and open a > > gate, enter a crooked tunnel, pass on through to the other side. Then you > > cross high and low hills where the vision appears to be reversed. It's as > if > > you are traveling in reverse.
> > "You pass through a fort like region which is the home of the ruler, > Omkar, > > and halt, for Soul to become adorned with the attributes of devotion and > > faith.
> > "The seeds of the traveler's karma are burned and destroyed here.
> > "The color of this region is that of a beautiful, setting sun. Above it is > > another part of the world of Omkar where you find deserts, mountains and > > gardens. Flowers are arranged in artistic designs everywhere.
> > "You will be intoxicated with joy, wandering through a splendid region of > > canals and streams, before coming to an ocean of water over which you can > > cross by bridge to the other side where there are three mountain peaks > named > > Mer, Sumer and Kailash.
> > "This is a halting place for many spiritualists and mystics. Some yogis > > believe this to be their heaven. The miracles of the mind are performed > from > > this section of Brahm Lok, e.g., stopping of trains, filling dry wells and > > healing the sick...
> > "There are six planes within Brahm Lok, and many sub-divisions. The chief > > city here is called Mersumer Kailash, named after the three peaks of Brahm > > Lok.
> > "This region is controlled by Brahm whose chief duty is to channel the > great > > power, AUM, into the region and the worlds below.
> > "The function of AUM, a part of the great sound current, is to create, > > maintain and destroy the universes below it. It is the center of creation > of > > the material and Astral worlds.
> > "Many of the great scriptures have sprung from this region, including the > > Vedas, Christian scriptures, Buddhist texts, to name a few. Lord Krishna > as > > well as many other spiritual leaders make their home here."
> > Following are quotes from Julian Johnson's book, With A Great Master In > > India, pages 197-198:
> > "With our great Captain in command, we resume our journey. He alone knows > > the Way, and he alone has the key to all regions: for he has traveled them > > all many times, and besides, he is the recognized Lord of them all for the > > time being. The true Saint is king of kings, and is universally recognized > > as Lord because he is ONE with the Supreme. His power and authority are > > recognized all alone the route. All other lords, rulers and people, pay > > obeisance to him. Under his protection we now enter Trikuti, the second > > stage on our journey. Here we may rest and study for a long time, even > > years. There is much here to absorb attention, besides, one has to himself > > grow and develop before he can advance. Let us quote a brief description > of > > this region from Soami Ji:
> > [NOTE: The following three paragraphs are quotes from Shiv Dayal Singh, > the > > founder of Radhasoami, from his book the Sar Bachan.]
> > ""Now, my dear companion, prepare to enter the second stage. Behold > Trikuti, > > the abode of the Guru, where the sound of Onkar is heard perpetually > > resounding. Then you go on up and open a gate and enter the bankanal > > (crooked tunnel), passing on to the other end of it. Then you cross high > and > > low hills. Now, the vision appears to be reversed, and one sees as if from > > the opposite side of the veil which he has penetrated. Looking upward, he > > passes into a fort-like region which he enters and becomes Master of it. > He > > reigns there as lord of that region. Here the soul becomes adorned with > the > > attributes of devotion and faith. Here the seed of all karma is burned, > > destroyed. You will see thick dark clouds, from which peals of thunder > > constantly resound. When rising above these dark clouds, behold, the > entire > > sphere is red, with the beautiful red sun in the center imparting its > color > > to everything.
> > ""This is where the Guru really gives Nam; for the Master's Shabd Rup is > > here. This Shabd is, in fact, the Fifth Veda. Here you will see the red > > four-petalled lotus spoken of by the Saints, the details and colors > becoming > > visible as one comes nearer to it. Here the bell and conch sounds are left > > behind and the sound of mardang (like a drum) is heard.
> > ""After than, the soul resumes his upward journey. Now comes the sound of > a > > huge drum, beaten incessantly. Here the soul has grasped the Primal > Current, > > from which all creation emanates. Innumerable suns and moons are seen here > > and many kinds of skies, filled with stars. The soul here realizes its > > complete separation from Pind, and rises to the upper Brahmand, as if > > intoxicated with joy. He sees and traverses deserts and mountains and > > gardens. In the gardens are flowers arranged in artistic designs and > groups > > everywhere. Canals and rivulets of transparent water are flowing in > > abundance. Then one approaches an ocean, which he crosses by means of a > > bridge. He then beholds the three mountains, or prominences, called Mer, > > Sumer and Kailash. (From these the region is named.) After this, he passes > > on to a region of the most unalloyed delight." [End of quote from Shiv > Dayal > > Singh.]
> > "Again, necessarily, much has been omitted. Volumes could be written and > > still tell but little of the worlds crossed by the Saints. Much of it > cannot > > be told in mortal language, because we have nothing like it here with > which > > to compare it. So we must pass on along this Royal Highway of the Saints. > > They have given us only hints, just a word here and there. Having reached > > this region; the soul finds itself in possession of
I liked Pauls style in those books too * also Johnson. It may also be noteworthy that the Tigers Fang closely resembles Sar Bachan POERTY VERSION vol 1 & 2, (but importantly without comments about being higher than JC, etc, being God of Earth...and suggestions to drink guru's spit and bathwater, commit widow suicide... I realize that these were cultural norms for the times (written by Shiv), but having read them at the time of 911 coincidentally, they had a stronger impact... & did not add to the important messages.)
As for Julian, I liked his books, but also found them to be redundant of earlier authors, notably Sawan Singh and Shiv Dayal Singh who appear to have carried important points from earlier authors from Buddism (surangama Sutra, Hermeticm Sufi and Sikh writings. Reminds me of the Hara Krishna writings in a way.
I tnink that the important point is that NONE of these authors have done more than repeat universal truths in different ways and then add some of their own unique experiences..
> > Interesting, Doug. I have mixed feeling about the "plagerism". For thos > most > > part, I see the copied info as generally either common themes or > > insignificant fillers. However, I find the quotes where he claimed to have > > come from Rebazar to have been done in really poor taste... and perhaps > not > > a great move in his part ???
> > What are your on that stuff ?
> I agree with you that plagiarism is not the real issue. I think the fact > that many felt The Far Country was a transcription of an actual dialog means > this matter of plagiarism shows them a very different picture. It means the > words really came from Paul's pen, with help from other authors, and not > word for word from Rebazar Tarzs.
> As for poor taste, I think it looks a lot differently now. I can look back > at some of my early writings and see strong similarities with Paul's books. > He influenced me significantly. Let's say I decided to leave ECKANKAR and > start writing for some other teacher. Let's say I took some of my old > writings and just re-worked them to fit with the new teachings. Now, > somebody eventually sees that my writings are almost word for word from some > of Paul's writings. Now it looks like I was "stealing" from ECKANKAR, and > that the new teacher is just a spin-off.
> It's all a matter of perspective.
> I think Paul was clearly influenced by Johnson's books. He obviously liked > them enough that he covered a lot of the same material, and even used very > similar words in many cases, when he wrote The Far Country. However, he was > also writing this at the same time as he handed Kirpal Singh his first draft > of The Tiger's Fang. If Kirpal had not rejected his efforts, I believe > Kirpal's students would have looked at The Far Country far differently.
> On the other hand, I don't really know what Paul was thinking when he wrote > this book. I do like The Far Country far more than Johnson's books, so I'm > glad he wrote it. However, I do think that it is a serious negative to his > popularity in the public sector. I'm not sure Paul would mind too much about > that.
> Doug.
> > > I'm going to skip the introduction I made in the last two posts in this > > > series. See previous posts if you want more information.
> > > With this post I am looking at the next 16 paragraphs that David > > identifies > > > on his, for Paul's Chapter One. These are the following paragraphs: 66, > > 67, > > > 68, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 80, 81, 82, 83.
> > > Here is how those paragraphs read from Paul's Chapter One of The Far > > > Country:
> > > "Sometimes the spiritual travelers call this region the Brahmanda, which > > > means the egg of Brahm, and refers to the name of its Lord, Brahm. This > > > Deity is supposed to be the supreme being of all creation by the Yogis. > > This > > > is the highest world known to practically all faiths, including > > > Christianity.
> > > "If the yogi or other holy man claims to be a master and declares that > > > Brahman is the highest of all creators, that this is the supreme heaven, > > he > > > is not a master in the sense that we know. He is only a humble seeker > > under > > > the supreme ruler of this plane, Brahman.
> > > "This is the top of the three worlds, the physical, lower and upper > > Astral. > > > It is called the first grand division of the universes...
> > > "This is the region of the universal mind, whose power is called AUM. > > Hence > > > the word Omkar, the power on this plane, which is still the negative > > force. > > > The lower part of this region is that known as the Home of the Universal > > > Mind. It is from here that all individual minds are derived, and to that > > > region all minds must return when they are discarded during the upward > > > flight of Soul.
> > > "An ECK Master takes you through this world, into the next region, for > > only > > > a master can be the guide, and know the path, thorny as it is. He is the > > > recognized Lord of all.
> > > "All other lords, rulers and peoples on every plane pay homage to Him.
> > > "When you arrive at the border of this region the sound of Omkar is > heard > > > continuously resounding, like a great drum. You go up a hill and open a > > > gate, enter a crooked tunnel, pass on through to the other side. Then > you > > > cross high and low hills where the vision appears to be reversed. It's > as > > if > > > you are traveling in reverse.
> > > "You pass through a fort like region which is the home of the ruler, > > Omkar, > > > and halt, for Soul to become adorned with the attributes of devotion and > > > faith.
> > > "The seeds of the traveler's karma are burned and destroyed here.
> > > "The color of this region is that of a beautiful, setting sun. Above it > is > > > another part of the world of Omkar where you find deserts, mountains and > > > gardens. Flowers are arranged in artistic designs everywhere.
> > > "You will be intoxicated with joy, wandering through a splendid region > of > > > canals and streams, before coming to an ocean of water over which you > can > > > cross by bridge to the other side where there are three mountain peaks > > named > > > Mer, Sumer and Kailash.
> > > "This is a halting place for many spiritualists and mystics. Some yogis > > > believe this to be their heaven. The miracles of the mind are performed > > from > > > this section of Brahm Lok, e.g., stopping of trains, filling dry wells > and > > > healing the sick...
> > > "There are six planes within Brahm Lok, and many sub-divisions. The > chief > > > city here is called Mersumer Kailash, named after the three peaks of > Brahm > > > Lok.
> > > "This region is controlled by Brahm whose chief duty is to channel the > > great > > > power, AUM, into the region and the worlds below.
> > > "The function of AUM, a part of the great sound current, is to create, > > > maintain and destroy the universes below it. It is the center of > creation > > of > > > the material and Astral worlds.
> > > "Many of the great scriptures have sprung from this region, including > the > > > Vedas, Christian scriptures, Buddhist texts, to name a few. Lord Krishna > > as > > > well as many other spiritual leaders make their home here."
> > > Following are quotes from Julian Johnson's book, With A Great Master In > > > India, pages 197-198:
> > > "With our great Captain in command, we resume our journey. He alone > knows > > > the Way, and he alone has the key to all regions: for he has traveled > them > > > all many times, and besides, he is the recognized Lord of them all for > the > > > time being. The true Saint is king of kings, and is universally > recognized > > > as Lord because he is ONE with the Supreme. His power and authority are > > > recognized all alone the route. All other lords, rulers and people, pay > > > obeisance to him. Under his protection we now enter Trikuti, the second > > > stage on our journey. Here we may rest and study for a long time, even > > > years. There is much here to absorb attention, besides, one has to > himself > > > grow and develop before he can advance. Let us quote a brief description > > of > > > this region from Soami Ji:
> > > [NOTE: The following three paragraphs are quotes from Shiv Dayal Singh, > > the > > > founder of Radhasoami, from his book the Sar Bachan.]
> > > ""Now, my dear companion, prepare to enter the second stage. Behold > > Trikuti, > > > the abode of the Guru, where the sound of Onkar is heard perpetually > > > resounding. Then you go on up and open a gate and enter the bankanal > > > (crooked tunnel), passing on to the other end of it. Then you cross high > > and > > > low hills. Now, the vision appears to be reversed, and one sees as if > from > > > the opposite side of the veil which he has penetrated. Looking upward, > he > > > passes into a fort-like region which he enters and becomes Master of it. > > He > > > reigns there as lord of that region. Here the soul becomes adorned with > > the > > > attributes of devotion and faith. Here the seed of all karma is burned, > > > destroyed. You will see thick dark clouds, from which peals of thunder > > > constantly resound. When rising above these dark clouds, behold, the > > entire > > > sphere is red, with the beautiful red sun in the center imparting its > > color > > > to everything.
> > > ""This is where the Guru really gives Nam; for the Master's Shabd Rup is > > > here. This Shabd is, in fact, the Fifth Veda. Here you will see the red > > > four-petalled lotus spoken of by the Saints, the details and colors > > becoming > > > visible as one comes nearer to it. Here the bell and conch sounds are > left > > > behind and the sound of mardang (like a drum) is heard.
> > > ""After than, the soul resumes his upward journey. Now comes the sound > of > > a
On Saturday, July 5, 2003 2:24:36 AM UTC-5, Doug Marman wrote:
> "Michael Basso" <mb1...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> news:be1gj6$vkq$1@slb9.atl.mindspring.net...
> > Interesting, Doug. I have mixed feeling about the "plagerism". For thos
> most
> > part, I see the copied info as generally either common themes or
> > insignificant fillers. However, I find the quotes where he claimed to have
> > come from Rebazar to have been done in really poor taste... and perhaps
> not
> > a great move in his part ???
> > What are your on that stuff ?
> I agree with you that plagiarism is not the real issue. I think the fact
> that many felt The Far Country was a transcription of an actual dialog means
> this matter of plagiarism shows them a very different picture. It means the
> words really came from Paul's pen, with help from other authors, and not
> word for word from Rebazar Tarzs.
> As for poor taste, I think it looks a lot differently now. I can look back
> at some of my early writings and see strong similarities with Paul's books.
> He influenced me significantly. Let's say I decided to leave ECKANKAR and
> start writing for some other teacher. Let's say I took some of my old
> writings and just re-worked them to fit with the new teachings. Now,
> somebody eventually sees that my writings are almost word for word from some
> of Paul's writings. Now it looks like I was "stealing" from ECKANKAR, and
> that the new teacher is just a spin-off.
> It's all a matter of perspective.
> I think Paul was clearly influenced by Johnson's books. He obviously liked
> them enough that he covered a lot of the same material, and even used very
> similar words in many cases, when he wrote The Far Country. However, he was
> also writing this at the same time as he handed Kirpal Singh his first draft > of The Tiger's Fang. If Kirpal had not rejected his efforts, I believe
> Kirpal's students would have looked at The Far Country far differently.
> On the other hand, I don't really know what Paul was thinking when he wrote
> this book. I do like The Far Country far more than Johnson's books, so I'm
> glad he wrote it. However, I do think that it is a serious negative to his
> popularity in the public sector. I'm not sure Paul would mind too much about
> that.
> Doug.
> > > I'm going to skip the introduction I made in the last two posts in this
> > > series. See previous posts if you want more information.
> > > With this post I am looking at the next 16 paragraphs that David
> > identifies
> > > on his, for Paul's Chapter One. These are the following paragraphs: 66,
> > 67,
> > > 68, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 80, 81, 82, 83.
> > > Here is how those paragraphs read from Paul's Chapter One of The Far
> > > Country:
> > > "Sometimes the spiritual travelers call this region the Brahmanda, which
> > > means the egg of Brahm, and refers to the name of its Lord, Brahm. This
> > > Deity is supposed to be the supreme being of all creation by the Yogis.
> > This
> > > is the highest world known to practically all faiths, including
> > > Christianity.
> > > "If the yogi or other holy man claims to be a master and declares that
> > > Brahman is the highest of all creators, that this is the supreme heaven,
> > he
> > > is not a master in the sense that we know. He is only a humble seeker
> > under
> > > the supreme ruler of this plane, Brahman.
> > > "This is the top of the three worlds, the physical, lower and upper
> > Astral.
> > > It is called the first grand division of the universes...
> > > "This is the region of the universal mind, whose power is called AUM.
> > Hence
> > > the word Omkar, the power on this plane, which is still the negative
> > force.
> > > The lower part of this region is that known as the Home of the Universal
> > > Mind. It is from here that all individual minds are derived, and to that
> > > region all minds must return when they are discarded during the upward
> > > flight of Soul.
> > > "An ECK Master takes you through this world, into the next region, for
> > only
> > > a master can be the guide, and know the path, thorny as it is. He is the
> > > recognized Lord of all.
> > > "All other lords, rulers and peoples on every plane pay homage to Him.
> > > "When you arrive at the border of this region the sound of Omkar is
> heard
> > > continuously resounding, like a great drum. You go up a hill and open a
> > > gate, enter a crooked tunnel, pass on through to the other side. Then
> you
> > > cross high and low hills where the vision appears to be reversed. It's
> as
> > if
> > > you are traveling in reverse.
> > > "You pass through a fort like region which is the home of the ruler,
> > Omkar,
> > > and halt, for Soul to become adorned with the attributes of devotion and
> > > faith.
> > > "The seeds of the traveler's karma are burned and destroyed here.
> > > "The color of this region is that of a beautiful, setting sun. Above it
> is
> > > another part of the world of Omkar where you find deserts, mountains and
> > > gardens. Flowers are arranged in artistic designs everywhere.
> > > "You will be intoxicated with joy, wandering through a splendid region
> of
> > > canals and streams, before coming to an ocean of water over which you
> can
> > > cross by bridge to the other side where there are three mountain peaks
> > named
> > > Mer, Sumer and Kailash.
> > > "This is a halting place for many spiritualists and mystics. Some yogis
> > > believe this to be their heaven. The miracles of the mind are performed
> > from
> > > this section of Brahm Lok, e.g., stopping of trains, filling dry wells
> and
> > > healing the sick...
> > > "There are six planes within Brahm Lok, and many sub-divisions. The
> chief
> > > city here is called Mersumer Kailash, named after the three peaks of
> Brahm
> > > Lok.
> > > "This region is controlled by Brahm whose chief duty is to channel the
> > great
> > > power, AUM, into the region and the worlds below.
> > > "The function of AUM, a part of the great sound current, is to create,
> > > maintain and destroy the universes below it. It is the center of
> creation
> > of
> > > the material and Astral worlds.
> > > "Many of the great scriptures have sprung from this region, including
> the
> > > Vedas, Christian scriptures, Buddhist texts, to name a few. Lord Krishna
> > as
> > > well as many other spiritual leaders make their home here."
> > > Following are quotes from Julian Johnson's book, With A Great Master In
> > > India, pages 197-198:
> > > "With our great Captain in command, we resume our journey. He alone
> knows
> > > the Way, and he alone has the key to all regions: for he has traveled
> them
> > > all many times, and besides, he is the recognized Lord of them all for
> the
> > > time being. The true Saint is king of kings, and is universally
> recognized
> > > as Lord because he is ONE with the Supreme. His power and authority are
> > > recognized all alone the route. All other lords, rulers and people, pay
> > > obeisance to him. Under his protection we now enter Trikuti, the second
> > > stage on our journey. Here we may rest and study for a long time, even
> > > years. There is much here to absorb attention, besides, one has to
> himself
> > > grow and develop before he can advance. Let us quote a brief description
> > of
> > > this region from Soami Ji:
> > > [NOTE: The following three paragraphs are quotes from Shiv Dayal Singh,
> > the
> > > founder of Radhasoami, from his book the Sar Bachan.]
> > > ""Now, my dear companion, prepare to enter the second stage. Behold
> > Trikuti,
> > > the abode of the Guru, where the sound of Onkar is heard perpetually
> > > resounding. Then you go on up and open a gate and enter the bankanal
> > > (crooked tunnel), passing on to the other end of it. Then you cross high
> > and
> > > low hills. Now, the vision appears to be reversed, and one sees as if
> from
> > > the opposite side of the veil which he has penetrated. Looking upward,
> he
> > > passes into a fort-like region which he enters and becomes Master of it.
> > He
> > > reigns there as lord of that region. Here the soul becomes adorned with
> > the
> > > attributes of devotion and faith. Here the seed of all karma is burned,
> > > destroyed. You will see thick dark clouds, from which peals of thunder
> > > constantly resound. When rising above these dark clouds, behold, the
> > entire
> > > sphere is red, with the beautiful red sun in the center imparting its
> > color
> > > to everything.
> > > ""This is where the Guru really gives Nam; for the Master's Shabd Rup is
> > > here. This Shabd is, in fact, the Fifth Veda. Here you will see the red
> > > four-petalled lotus spoken of by the Saints, the details and colors
> > becoming
> > > visible as one comes nearer to it. Here the bell and conch sounds are
> left
> > > behind and the sound of mardang (like a drum) is heard.
> > > ""After than, the soul resumes his upward journey. Now comes the sound
> of
> > a
> > > huge drum, beaten incessantly. Here the soul has grasped the Primal
> > Current,
> > > from which all creation emanates. Innumerable suns and moons are seen
> here
> > > and many kinds of skies, filled with stars. The soul here realizes its
> > > complete separation from Pind, and rises to the upper Brahmand, as if
> > > intoxicated with joy. He sees and traverses deserts and mountains and
> > > gardens. In the gardens are flowers arranged in artistic designs and
> > groups
> > > everywhere. Canals and rivulets of transparent water are flowing in
> > > abundance. Then one approaches an ocean, which he
