Revelations on Paul's early days.
Siva Ri
During the period of my research for this book, I traveled to
Lakemont, Georgia to meet with Roy Eugene Davis, the director of
Center for Spiritual Awareness and a disciple of Parmahansa Yogananda.
He provided addtional insight into Paul's early motivations in
creating Eckankar and about Paul's "creativity to survive".
Davis is an internationally respected teacher and lecturer of the
spiritual growth processes in the Kriya Yoga tradition and the author
of numerous books on the subject. A conteporary of Paul Twitchell, he
wrote of his association:
"I met Paul Twitchell during the early 1960's in Washington D.C. At
that time Paul lived in an apartment owned by, and on the grounds of
the Self-Revelation Church of Absolute Monism of which the late Swami
Premananda, one of my brother disciples, was the founder and minister.
Paul contacted me after seeing a notice of my public lectures and
after our initial conversation we continued to meet at his apartment
from time to time.
"Unmarried at the time, Paul lived alone...He told me that he had been
initiated by Kirpal Singh but was no longer affiliated with him.
During one of my visits Paul pointed to some notebooks and binders on
a shelf by his writing desk and said, 'One day those are going to make
me rich.' At a later meeting he said, 'To be successful in a big way,
you have to have your own movement. Paramhansa Yogananda had his
Self-Realization fellowship; L. Ron Hubbard had his Scientology;
Eckankar is my thing.'
"Paul moved from Washington, D.C. and later wrote me from Seattle,
Washington....After his move to San Diego, I began to see his
articles...about Eckankar...Some....featured testimonials from his
students who claimed that Paul had appeared to them in dreams and
visions. When I next visited San Diego, Paul and I had lunch....I
asked him about the claims of various people that he said visited them
in dreams and by astral projection. He chuckled, and said, 'You know,
if you tell people something long enough they'll start to believe it!'
<snip>
"My articles were also published in Orion Magazine and I knew the
editors very well. On one occasion they informed me that they had
rejected Paul's then most recent article because he had used entire
paragraphs from a book on Mental Science by Judge Thomas Troward.
After that incident his articles were no longer accepted by the
editors of Orion Magazine.
"Paul's claim that he was representative of a line of enlightened
spiritual masters was a fiction. My impression of him was that he had
a deep psychological need for recognition and to accomplish something
that would impress others. During our private conversations he was
friendly, likable, and somwhat shy."
Jan4litsnd
>From: siv...@aol.com (Siva Ri)
>Date: 8/7/03 10:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <a0a906c9.03080...@posting.google.com>
>
>From Ford Johnson's book, pages 107-108:
>"Paul moved from Washington, D.C. and later wrote me from Seattle,
>Washington....After his move to San Diego, I began to see his
>articles...about Eckankar...Some....featured testimonials from his
>students who claimed that Paul had appeared to them in dreams and
>visions. When I next visited San Diego, Paul and I had lunch....I
>asked him about the claims of various people that he said visited them
>in dreams and by astral projection. He chuckled, and said, 'You know,
>if you tell people something long enough they'll start to believe it!'
JAN:
I'm wondering why Ford uses this type of thing--gossip, opinion, and hearsay.
Doesn't this sound like a page out of Lane's book?
I know from my own experience that Paul Twitchell met (and sometimes still
meets) with students on the inner, and in some cases, prior to their ever
having heard the word Eckankar, as that's how I found Eckankar years ago....
Repost:
My introduction to ECKANKAR was through a friend who was attending a class with
me. He was having natural out-of-body experiences without trying or knowing
anything about them, just spontaneously finding himself out of the body and on
another plane. Paul Twitchell met him a number of times (on this other plane
where he found himself) and tried to help him and explain to him where he was,
etc. He would come back to class and tell myself and another girl-friend about
it. Paul told him about ECKANKAR. Then my girl-friend bought "ECKANKAR Key To
Secret Worlds". She brought it to class and he saw Paul's picture on it and his
face went white and he was obviously shocked as he realized that was the man
that was coming to him. He said he didn't understand that it is an outer
teaching. We all three realized that it was a special gift to us to have Paul
come to him that way, and we all three joined ECKANKAR.
GaryFike
>From: jan4l...@aol.com (Jan4litsnd)
>Date: 8/8/2003 2:08 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <20030808170844...@mb-m12.aol.com>
>
>>Subject: Revelations on Paul's early days.
>>From: siv...@aol.com (Siva Ri)
>>Date: 8/7/03 10:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>>Message-id: <a0a906c9.03080...@posting.google.com>
>>
>>From Ford Johnson's book, pages 107-108:
><snip>
>>"Paul moved from Washington, D.C. and later wrote me from Seattle,
>>Washington....After his move to San Diego, I began to see his
>>articles...about Eckankar...Some....featured testimonials from his
>>students who claimed that Paul had appeared to them in dreams and
>>visions. When I next visited San Diego, Paul and I had lunch....I
>>asked him about the claims of various people that he said visited them
>>in dreams and by astral projection. He chuckled, and said, 'You know,
>>if you tell people something long enough they'll start to believe it!'
>
>
>JAN:
>I'm wondering why Ford uses this type of thing--gossip, opinion, and hearsay.
>Doesn't this sound like a page out of Lane's book?
Well Jan, it could be a page out of MY book. Trust me when I tell you I was
there.
Read on...
From Ford Johnson's book, pages 107-108:
During the period of my research for this book, I traveled to
Lakemont, Georgia to meet with Roy Eugene Davis, the director of
Center for Spiritual Awareness and a disciple of Parmahansa Yogananda.
He provided addtional insight into Paul's early motivations in
creating Eckankar and about Paul's "creativity to survive".
Davis is an internationally respected teacher and lecturer of the
spiritual growth processes in the Kriya Yoga tradition and the author
of numerous books on the subject. A conteporary of Paul Twitchell, he
wrote of his association:
"I met Paul Twitchell during the early 1960's in Washington D.C. At
that time Paul lived in an apartment owned by, and on the grounds of
the Self-Revelation Church of Absolute Monism of which the late Swami
Premananda, one of my brother disciples, was the founder and minister.
Paul contacted me after seeing a notice of my public lectures and
after our initial conversation we continued to meet at his apartment
from time to time.
"Unmarried at the time, Paul lived alone...He told me that he had been
initiated by Kirpal Singh but was no longer affiliated with him.
During one of my visits Paul pointed to some notebooks and binders on
a shelf by his writing desk and said, 'One day those are going to make
me rich.' At a later meeting he said, 'To be successful in a big way,
you have to have your own movement. Paramhansa Yogananda had his
Self-Realization fellowship; L. Ron Hubbard had his Scientology;
Eckankar is my thing.'
"Paul moved from Washington, D.C. and later wrote me from Seattle,
Washington....After his move to San Diego, I began to see his
articles...about Eckankar...Some....featured testimonials from his
students who claimed that Paul had appeared to them in dreams and
visions. When I next visited San Diego, Paul and I had lunch....I
asked him about the claims of various people that he said visited them
in dreams and by astral projection. He chuckled, and said, 'You know,
if you tell people something long enough they'll start to believe it!'
<snip>
"My articles were also published in Orion Magazine and I knew the
editors very well. On one occasion they informed me that they had
rejected Paul's then most recent article because he had used entire
paragraphs from a book on Mental Science by Judge Thomas Troward.
After that incident his articles were no longer accepted by the
editors of Orion Magazine.
"Paul's claim that he was representative of a line of enlightened
spiritual masters was a fiction. My impression of him was that he had
a deep psychological need for recognition and to accomplish something
that would impress others. During our private conversations he was
friendly, likable, and somwhat shy."
Yes, Sivari, this jibes with my firsthand knowledge.
Roy Eugene Davis used to sleep with my mom. I mean, I assume that's what
they were doing when he spent the night at our house in the early 60's. I'd say
1963.
I remember asking him how you "write a book". Never did get an answer, just a
"knowing" look.
You can get a lot of mileage out of a "knowing" look!
He's the guy who introduced my mom to Paul. Afterward, he told her he was "an
unemployed writer".
It all fits into David Lane's and Ford Johnson's uncovering of Paul real
biography.
Let each one fearlessly ask if this is the guy to trust with your spiritual
fortune.
Orez
cher
mother. Are you planning on posting all her other lovers as examples as
well? Just curious. Last time I looked, sexual arousal wasn't a good
enough reason to trust a persons opinion.
GaryFike wrote:
<snip>
> Roy Eugene Davis used to sleep with my mom. I mean, I assume that's what
> they were doing when he spent the night at our house in the early 60's. I'd say
> 1963.
<snip>
Iron Man
>
> Roy Eugene Davis used to sleep with my mom. I mean, I assume that's what
> they were doing when he spent the night at our house in the early 60's. I'd say
> 1963.
> I remember asking him how you "write a book". Never did get an answer, just a
> "knowing" look.
> You can get a lot of mileage out of a "knowing" look!
>
> He's the guy who introduced my mom to Paul. Afterward, he told her he was "an
> unemployed writer".
What was the purpose of that introduction? Did Davis and Twitchell
share their little black books?
Michael
"GaryFike" <gary...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030808200436...@mb-m26.aol.com...
And tell us, Gary... What would encourage us to believe you?
The last "authoritive" account of Paul sleeping with Gail Twitchell seemed
somewhat wrong, after it was revealied that other people were with Darwin at
the time you claimed he was with Gail...
And maybe we have had more than a few slightly incorrect rememberances?
Ficticious, some have been so unkind to say.
Now we have the opinion presented of a man who used to sleep with your
mother, and your mother went and followed Paul ... I don't know... It sounds
a lot like Days of our Lives. But if it is true, then would this not be a
motivation for R.U.D. to run down the man who took his girlfriend away?
<G>
It really gets absurd, n'est ce pas?
Love
Michael
PS: If what is reported above is true, and Paul's only motivation was to
make money... Why did he give it all away when it started to look as if the
whole thing was taking off? Large gaping holes in logic tend to cloud the
sentiment expressed by your good self and Ford J
>
>
>
>
>
>
Jan4litsnd
>Date: 8/8/03 8:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <20030808200436...@mb-m26.aol.com>
>
>>Subject: Re: Revelations on Paul's early days.
>>From: jan4l...@aol.com (Jan4litsnd)
>>Date: 8/8/2003 2:08 PM Pacific Standard Time
>>Message-id: <20030808170844...@mb-m12.aol.com>
>>
>>>Subject: Revelations on Paul's early days.
>>>From: siv...@aol.com (Siva Ri)
>>>Date: 8/7/03 10:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>>>Message-id: <a0a906c9.03080...@posting.google.com>
>>>
>>>From Ford Johnson's book, pages 107-108:
>><snip>
>>>"Paul moved from Washington, D.C. and later wrote me from Seattle,
>>>Washington....After his move to San Diego, I began to see his
>>>articles...about Eckankar...Some....featured testimonials from his
>>>students who claimed that Paul had appeared to them in dreams and
>>>visions. When I next visited San Diego, Paul and I had lunch....I
>>>asked him about the claims of various people that he said visited them
>>>in dreams and by astral projection. He chuckled, and said, 'You know,
>>>if you tell people something long enough they'll start to believe it!'
>>JAN:
>>I'm wondering why Ford uses this type of thing--gossip, opinion, and
>hearsay.
>>Doesn't this sound like a page out of Lane's book?
GARY:
JAN:
"real biography"?
Davis remembering forty years later Paul pointing to some books and saying:
'One day those are going to make me rich.' ? Somehow, based on Paul's lack of
caring for anything material that was talked about at length by all, how he
gave things away to help chelas, etc., just doesn't jive with that. That's not
biographical information. It's hearsay, and probably incorrectly remembered.
Davis said:
"When I next visited San Diego, Paul and I had lunch....I
asked him about the claims of various people that he said visited them
in dreams and by astral projection. He chuckled, and said, 'You know,
if you tell people something long enough they'll start to believe it!'"
Is that what stands for credible biographical information? If it's even
believed that this was what was said to Davis, couldn't Paul have been making
light of such a question. It's not the kind of question he would likely answer
by saying..."yes, I've been an inner spiritual guide to many people"....it's
not what's done to talk about such things.
The bottom line to this is that Davis claims Paul was not an inner spiritual
teacher. His testimony based on what I read here is not credible. The
testimony of many people's first hand knowledge that Paul was their inner
spiritual guide is much more "compelling".
arelurker
>
> From Ford Johnson's book, pages 107-108:
>
> During the period of my research for this book, I traveled to
> Lakemont, Georgia to meet with Roy Eugene Davis, the director of
> Center for Spiritual Awareness and a disciple of Parmahansa Yogananda.
> creating Eckankar and about Paul's "creativity to survive".
>
> Davis is an internationally respected teacher and lecturer of the
> spiritual growth processes in the Kriya Yoga tradition and the author
> wrote of his association:
>
> "I met Paul Twitchell during the early 1960's in Washington D.C. At
> that time Paul lived in an apartment owned by, and on the grounds of
> the Self-Revelation Church of Absolute Monism of which the late Swami
> Premananda, one of my brother disciples, was the founder and minister.
> Paul contacted me after seeing a notice of my public lectures and
> after our initial conversation we continued to meet at his apartment
> from time to time.
>
> "Unmarried at the time, Paul lived alone...He told me that he had been
> initiated by Kirpal Singh but was no longer affiliated with him.
That's funny, in a letter to Kirpal Paul claims: "I have never
recognized you as a master, or that you give initiations, and that
your work is not in the best interest of spirituality."
Seems like Paul is a liar.
> During one of my visits Paul pointed to some notebooks and binders on
> a shelf by his writing desk and said, 'One day those are going to make
> me rich.' At a later meeting he said, 'To be successful in a big way,
> you have to have your own movement. Paramhansa Yogananda had his
> Self-Realization fellowship; L. Ron Hubbard had his Scientology;
> Eckankar is my thing.'
This all makes sense and is validated by Paul subsequent actions.
>
> "Paul moved from Washington, D.C. and later wrote me from Seattle,
> Washington....After his move to San Diego, I began to see his
> articles...about Eckankar...Some....featured testimonials from his
> students who claimed that Paul had appeared to them in dreams and
> visions. When I next visited San Diego, Paul and I had lunch....I
> asked him about the claims of various people that he said visited them
> in dreams and by astral projection. He chuckled, and said, 'You know,
> if you tell people something long enough they'll start to believe it!'
Out of the con artist's mouth.
> <snip>
> "My articles were also published in Orion Magazine and I knew the
> editors very well. On one occasion they informed me that they had
> rejected Paul's then most recent article because he had used entire
> paragraphs from a book on Mental Science by Judge Thomas Troward.
This kind of puts a kink in Marman's "it was common in those days"
crap he tries to sell here and in his book.
> After that incident his articles were no longer accepted by the
> editors of Orion Magazine.
>
> "Paul's claim that he was representative of a line of enlightened
> spiritual masters was a fiction. My impression of him was that he had
> a deep psychological need for recognition and to accomplish something
> that would impress others. During our private conversations he was
> friendly, likable, and somewhat shy."
Yep this validates my analysis of Paul suffering from Narcissistic
Personality Disorder. Good to hear eye witness accounts....as if we
needed them when considering Paul narcissistic corpus.
Lurk
Joey
<<< Yep this validates my analysis of Paul suffering from
Narcissistic
Personality Disorder. Good to hear eye witness accounts....as if we
needed them when considering Paul narcissistic corpus. >>>
Lurk
Okay, Lurk. Tell us, just what kind of personality disorder would you
diagnose on yourself. You've been posting scathing, cynical, hateful
letters in A.R.E. for what TEN YEARS now. What posesses a person to
do such a thing?
Tell us Lurk. I'd be really curious to hear and perhaps see your
self-portrait.
Joey
arel...@charter.net (arelurker) wrote in message news:<9de627d.03080...@posting.google.com>...
Ken
"arelurker" <arel...@charter.net> wrote ...
>
> Yep this validates my analysis of Paul suffering from Narcissistic
> Personality Disorder. Good to hear eye witness accounts....as if we
> needed them when considering Paul narcissistic corpus.
You can dissect the "corpus" any way you want, but that doesn't tell you anything
about the kind of life the person lead.
Sean
"Joey" <gal...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:f07e120a.03080...@posting.google.com...
> Lurk says....
>
> <<< Yep this validates my analysis of Paul suffering from
> Narcissistic
> Personality Disorder. Good to hear eye witness accounts....as if we
> needed them when considering Paul narcissistic corpus. >>>
>
>
> Lurk
>
>
> Okay, Lurk. Tell us, just what kind of personality disorder would you
> diagnose on yourself. You've been posting scathing, cynical, hateful
> letters in A.R.E. for what TEN YEARS now. What posesses a person to
> do such a thing?
>
> Tell us Lurk. I'd be really curious to hear and perhaps see your
> self-portrait.
>
>
> Joey
>
Would you like a tip Joey?
http://ceres.ca.gov/tcsf/pathways/chapter12.html
Unless one has the experience of dealing with narcissism, it is difficult to
appreciate how strong a force drives the grandiosity of the narcissism.
Remember the phrases, "I am the greatest; I am all powerful; the space is
mine; it belongs to me; only what I want matters." Furthermore, since
narcissism is ruled by "black and white" thinking, it is great, or it is
nothing, and therefore a failure. There is no space for collaboration, for
becoming or for emergence of a process.
There are many other examples in history to examine processes involving
narcissism and its forces. We can look to family systems and the treatment
of addicts if we choose to look at narcissism up close and personal.
Wherever we look, however, we find a formidable force that needs to be
understood and respected. Good will and motivations to serve the common good
need to be complemented by education about processes that interfere with
change and transformation.
We now find ourselves at a juncture in history where evolutionary
transformation is inevitable. The more information and preparation we have
to deal with narcissistic forces, the more able we will be able to remain
aligned with transformational processes as they unfold.
About Bruce Gregory
Bruce Gregory, Ph.D. is a corporate behavioral specialist with almost twenty
years of experience working with corporations and executives. He specializes
in crisis intervention, Leadership training, team building, conflict
resolution, and communications Training. He is also the Director of the
Masters Program in Counseling Psychology at Ryokan College in Los Angeles.
He has led workshops in the Art of Leadership at Esalen Institute. He has
worked with corporations both in the United States and Europe. . He can be
reached at (818) 781-3098 and his email address is theartofleadership.com
SEAN: Maybe we should give him a call and ask for his opinion about Lurk? I
think he's more qualified than Lurk to make judgements about whom may be a
narcissist.
<G>
Let me know if you'd like some other links about narcissism. It's my life's
work apparently. ;-)
Sean
"Ken" <kah...@attachments.att.net> wrote in message
news:r%dZa.94348$0v4.6...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
AS if Lurk was interested anybodys life.
Ken
"Sean" <lifes...@earth.org> wrote ...
True. He'd apparently rather spend his time staring at reflections in a
pool of water. ;-)
Sean
LOL
Doug Marman
mother joined ECKANKAR?
Just curious.
Doug.
"GaryFike" <gary...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030808200436...@mb-m26.aol.com...
Doug Marman
like this. I find Gary's story of Roy and his mom far more believable,
because I know he tries to be honest with his facts. I don't know much about
Roy Eugene Davis, except that he must be around 72 years old now, since he
was born in 1931, and he has his own religious organization that he has
established, and he doesn't believe Paul. But I'm still willing to consider
his story.
When I do, however, these are some questions that pop up for me:
Why was Paul living at the Self-Revelation Church commune in the early 60's,
when he had been kicked out of that same place in 1955? Remember, this is
the place where he had a big fight, had his eye permanently damaged, and was
told to leave by Premananda. He not only left, but had to move down to
Florida for a while to get away from some of the people there.
From all the research I have seen, Paul broke off all ties with Premananda's
group in 1955, which was the same year he took up with Kirpal Singh. And
from the things Paul has said about the problems of living in a commune, I
can't imagine him moving back.
Why would Paul have said he was no longer affiliated with Kirpal Singh in
the early 60's, when he was writing friendly letters to him up until 1966,
had given Kirpal his book, The Tiger's Fang in 1963, introduced Gail to him
in 1963 where she was also initiated by Kirpal at that time, and publicly
wrote in The Flute of God in Orion Magazine in late 1965 that Kirpal was
sympathetic to Paul's teachings?
When I saw Paul's library, I saw the original manuscripts he had written.
None were in the form of notebooks or binders. So, that seems a bit strange
that Roy would describe them that way. They were all in plain reams of
paper, which hardly would stand up on a bookshelf like he seems to be
describing.
Why would Paul tell Roy that his books would one day make him rich, when
there is no indication at any other time in Paul's life that he was
motivated by money? It seems to me that if Paul told that to Roy, who was
only one of many people that Paul knew and talked to, then why didn't he
tell this to anyone else? It doesn't sound as if Paul was trying to keep
this to himself, the way Roy was describing it. The same question arises
when Roy talks to Paul in San Diego. This is after Paul has launched
Eckankar. Why is he saying these things to Roy as if it is a joke, but never
says anything like this to anyone else? Or perhaps it was in fact a joke.
Roy claims that Paul said, "Eckankar is my thing," while he was living in
Washington DC in the early 60's. This doesn't jibe. There is no record of
Paul ever once mentioning the name of Eckankar before 1963, and by that time
he had been living in Seattle for more than a year. In fact, Paul's first
articles on the subject focus on his "Cliffhanger" philosophy and don't even
mention Eckankar until later on. We have stories that Dick Braun has told us
from when he worked with Paul in Seattle in 1962 and 63. Dick tells us that
Paul talked about a lot of his philosophy but never used the word Eckankar
at that time. This just doesn't fit.
In fact, the whole idea of Paul living in Washington DC in the early 60's
seems suspect. Paul moved to Seattle in 1962. He moved there from Ohio,
where he had been living for about a year or longer. That was when Paul
tried to join the Catholic Church so that he could marry a woman he had met
there. That doesn't leave much time in the early 60's left.
These are just questions that pop up for me when I read his quote. It
doesn't mean what he says isn't true. I just find it at odds with a lot of
other facts we know.
By the way, I have now spoken to Patti Simpson and she says for a fact that
she was never called by Vandilla Walker the night Paul died, and she
contacted Gail exactly the way she described in her book. Patti couldn't get
a hold of Gail, so she had the police put a note on her door, telling her to
call Patti when she got in. When Gail called up, she said, "It's Paul, isn't
it?"
So, the story told previously by some unnamed person has turned out to be
patently wrong in a number of areas. For example this same person said that
he had met with Brad Steiger and heard the tapes Brad had of Paul, where
Paul was making up the story of his childhood with Brad. This person said
they cried when they heard this. Brad, however, recently told me that he
never interviewed Paul in person, so he had no tapes. He only interviewed
Paul over the phone a couple times. The rest was done through exchanges in
writing. Brad said the whole thing was absolutely totally bogus.
I've now also heard from the second person who recently spoke with Anya
Foos, and she told both of them that she never had sex with Paul. None of
that was true.
So, these rumors are just the things that people get themselves all caught
up in because the human consciousness loves gossip.
Now, if Roy kept some of his letters from or to Paul, that would be
interesting to see and would be worth considering for historical purposes.
Doug.
"Siva Ri" <siv...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:a0a906c9.03080...@posting.google.com...
arelurker
>
> Lurk says....
>
> <<< Yep this validates my analysis of Paul suffering from
> Narcissistic
> Personality Disorder. Good to hear eye witness accounts....as if we
> needed them when considering Paul narcissistic corpus. >>>
>
>
> Okay, Lurk. Tell us, just what kind of personality disorder would you
> diagnose on yourself.
Terminal charm.
You've been posting scathing, cynical, hateful
> letters in A.R.E. for what TEN YEARS now. What posesses a person to
> do such a thing?
It's been about six years and I take issue with your characterizations
of my postings. I
post as a public service. Helping Eckankar and eckists become more
comfortable with the truth is one of my causes. Eckists are truth
challenged.
Lurk
>
> Tell us Lurk. I'd be really curious to hear and perhaps see your
> self-portrait.
>
> Joey
>
> arel...@charter.net (arelurker) wrote in message news:<9de627d.03080...@posting.google.com>...
> > Siva Ri wrote:
> > >
> > > From Ford Johnson's book, pages 107-108:
> > >
> > > During the period of my research for this book, I traveled to
> > > Lakemont, Georgia to meet with Roy Eugene Davis, the director of
> > > Center for Spiritual Awareness and a disciple of Parmahansa Yogananda.
> > > He provided additional insight into Paul's early motivations in
> > > creating Eckankar and about Paul's "creativity to survive".
> > >
> > > Davis is an internationally respected teacher and lecturer of the
> > > spiritual growth processes in the Kriya Yoga tradition and the author
> > > of numerous books on the subject. A contemporary of Paul Twitchell, he
> > > wrote of his association:
> > >
> > > "I met Paul Twitchell during the early 1960's in Washington D.C. At
> > > that time Paul lived in an apartment owned by, and on the grounds of
> > > the Self-Revelation Church of Absolute Monism of which the late Swami
> > > Premananda, one of my brother disciples, was the founder and minister.
> > > Paul contacted me after seeing a notice of my public lectures and
> > > after our initial conversation we continued to meet at his apartment
> > > from time to time.
> > >
> > > "Unmarried at the time, Paul lived alone...He told me that he had been
> > > initiated by Kirpal Singh but was no longer affiliated with him.
> >
> > That's funny, in a letter to Kirpal Paul claims: "I have never
> > recognized you as a master, or that you give initiations, and that
> > your work is not in the best interest of spirituality."
> >
> > Seems like Paul is a liar.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > During one of my visits Paul pointed to some notebooks and binders on
> > > a shelf by his writing desk and said, 'One day those are going to make
> > > me rich.' At a later meeting he said, 'To be successful in a big way,
> > > you have to have your own movement. Paramhansa Yogananda had his
> > > Self-Realization fellowship; L. Ron Hubbard had his Scientology;
> > > Eckankar is my thing.'
> >
> > This all makes sense and is validated by Paul subsequent actions.
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > "Paul moved from Washington, D.C. and later wrote me from Seattle,
> > > Washington....After his move to San Diego, I began to see his
> > > articles...about Eckankar...Some....featured testimonials from his
> > > students who claimed that Paul had appeared to them in dreams and
> > > visions. When I next visited San Diego, Paul and I had lunch....I
> > > asked him about the claims of various people that he said visited them
> > > in dreams and by astral projection. He chuckled, and said, 'You know,
> > > if you tell people something long enough they'll start to believe it!'
> >
> > Out of the con artist's mouth.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > <snip>
> > > "My articles were also published in Orion Magazine and I knew the
> > > editors very well. On one occasion they informed me that they had
> > > rejected Paul's then most recent article because he had used entire
> > > paragraphs from a book on Mental Science by Judge Thomas Troward.
> >
> >
> > This kind of puts a kink in Marman's "it was common in those days"
> > crap he tries to sell here and in his book.
> >
> >
> >
> > > After that incident his articles were no longer accepted by the
> > > editors of Orion Magazine.
> > >
> > > "Paul's claim that he was representative of a line of enlightened
> > > spiritual masters was a fiction. My impression of him was that he had
> > > a deep psychological need for recognition and to accomplish something
> > > that would impress others. During our private conversations he was
> > > friendly, likable, and somewhat shy."
> >
> > Yep this validates my analysis of Paul suffering from Narcissistic
> > Personality Disorder. Good to hear eye witness accounts....as if we
> > needed them when considering Paul narcissistic corpus.
> >
> > Lurk
arelurker
>
> "Joey" <gal...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:f07e120a.03080...@posting.google.com...
> >
> > <<< Yep this validates my analysis of Paul suffering from
> > Narcissistic
> > Personality Disorder. Good to hear eye witness accounts....as if we
> > needed them when considering Paul narcissistic corpus. >>>
> >
> >
> > Lurk
> >
> >
> > Okay, Lurk. Tell us, just what kind of personality disorder would you
> > letters in A.R.E. for what TEN YEARS now. What posesses a person to
> > do such a thing?
> >
> > self-portrait.
> >
> >
> > Joey
> >
>
Yeah, show the guy Paul's Shariyat books and get back to me.
Lurk
>
> <G>
>
> Let me know if you'd like some other links about narcissism. It's my life's
> work apparently. ;-)
> >
> >
Sean
What a web we weave. Sort of says it all, especially this:
> So, these rumors are just the things that people get themselves all caught
> up in because the human consciousness loves gossip.
What do these types of details presented by Doug make of Ford's "research",
except an overpriced issue of The National Enquirer?
"Doug Marman" <d.ma...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:JzednTRPCqV...@comcast.com...
Michael
Interesting how real facts stand up to scrutiny, but so many of the
detractor facts seem to just keep on falling over.
Oh well... Gary has once more proven himself an unreliable witness, or so it
seems.
love
Michael
"Doug Marman" <d.ma...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:JzednTRPCqV...@comcast.com...
saji
the "Witness" could be reliable and Gary unreliable.
It's the
"Witness" which speaks that usually is unreliable.
For the record,I never slept with Paul Twitchell or Anya Foos.I did
share a fond embrace with P.T once.<G>
saji
p.s. does that make me gay? <G>
"Center Everywhere.Circumference Nowhere" - GOD
"Michael" <fl...@phurphy.com> wrote in message news:<0QrZa.27222$bo1....@news-server.bigpond.net.au>...
cher
"They're coming to get you Barbara!". <grin>
cher
cher
>
> Joey wrote:
> >
> > Lurk says....
> >
> > <<< Yep this validates my analysis of Paul suffering from
> > Narcissistic
> > Personality Disorder. Good to hear eye witness accounts....as if we
> > needed them when considering Paul narcissistic corpus. >>>
> >
> > Lurk
> >
> > Okay, Lurk. Tell us, just what kind of personality disorder would you
> > diagnose on yourself.
>
> Terminal charm.
>
> You've been posting scathing, cynical, hateful
> > letters in A.R.E. for what TEN YEARS now. What posesses a person to
> > do such a thing?
>
> It's been about six years and I take issue with your characterizations
> of my postings. I
> post as a public service. Helping Eckankar and eckists become more
> comfortable with the truth is one of my causes. Eckists are truth
> challenged.
>
> Lurk
Well how's that working out for you? <smile>
Siva Ri
three-hole punched? If they were, they could have been simply removed
from their 3-ring binders before you saw them. In any case, we don't
know what Paul had in those binders (if they existed), nor whether he
kept them or rewrote them.
Davis give us his reply to these questions, but it would be revealing
to see what he had to say. Another question that comes to mind from
Gary Fike's story (which maybe Gary himself can answer) is why Roy
would introduce Gary's mom to Paul if Roy thought Paul had just made
up Eckankar? I'm assuming he introduced her to Paul because of Paul's
teachings, but that may well not be why he introduced her to him.
Doug Marman
There were no three-hole punched manuscripts. They were all just reams of
paper. I saw them in files in a filing cabinet. I also just recently
received some old notes from Patti Simpson, which I will add to my book. She
talks about visiting Paul in his office where he did all of his writing. She
also describes all of his books and unpublished manuscripts in files.
I agree that it still could have been as Roy describes it, but here's
another point to consider. Have you ever tried putting the paper from a full
sized book into a binder or a notebook. Most of Paul's books would have been
half a ream of paper, or around 250 pages. Believe me, that's not something
you try to put into a binder or a notebook.
That is a good question. I also asked Gary what Roy's reaction was when
Gary's mom joined ECKANKAR. I thought his reaction would tell us a lot about
how he saw Paul at that time. But your point is even a better one. It sounds
as if Roy thought highly of Paul if he was introducing Paul to others.
Perhaps Roy simply read David's book and believed what he read, and his
memory just sort of changed when he wasn't watching. What do you think about
that theory? <G>
Thanks for your comments.
Doug.
GaryFike
>Date: 8/10/2003 9:29 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <I6ydnWc6l9s...@comcast.com>
Hmpffft.
Doug, for eschewing your role as Eckankar intellectual you sure ask a lot of
questions! Can't you just trust what we're (and Ford Johnson!) are telling
you?? <G>
My recollections are admittedly vague as it was a mere 40 years ago. My mom was
enamored with Roy, if not vice versa. When Paul asked to come see her after
Roy's intro, she thought it was to make a move on her. But, he never did to his
credit as he was recently married to Gail. What year was that? He just wanted
her to help set up Eckankar.
Roy was one of a few students of Paramahansa Yogananda who broke away after his
death in '51? and established their own version of Kriya yoga teaching. SRF has
a clandestine history of it's own despite a reputation to the contrary. It's an
interesting subject and a telling tale of how our 'culture' demands
modifications to the Perennial Wisdom to suit it's never ending thirst for
instant gratification and the seemingly unending line of Holey Men who are more
than glad to make a buck off the effort. But, I digress...
To my recollection, Roy introduced Paul to my mother at a meeting or event that
had nothing to do with either Kriya or Eckankar. Was Paul even calling it
Eckankar in '62 or '63? I don't believe my mother ever formally joined Eckankar
but did attend various seminars and satsangs. Paul always acknowledged her from
the stage and Gail liked her because she gave Gail a painting she had done. My
mother Doris took me to the 1st World Wide in Vegas.
Do you think I could make a legitimate claim on the R of P? I got some
'splaining to do and some changes to make.
Doug, rather than split hairs take Roy's statement whole. What's the tone?
What's the gist? He's not condemning Paul but pointing out, as have dozens of
others, that Paul was at best a character and at worst a sort of charlatan or
ner'do well.
That's news?
Oh, one other thing. Paul might not have given two hoots about money, but Gail
sure did. What's that old saw about "behind every successful man is a woman?" I
count her as a sort of Puppet Master who demanded focus from Paul (read money).
Oh, and one other thing. Relying on the word of Patti Simpson is dubious at
best. I knew her quite well. She gave me my 5th initiation in 1971, such as it
was.
Should we even broach the subject of Brad Steiger's veracity?
But by all means keep at it Doug. By sheer will alone you compensate for any 12
nay sayers. <G> I admire your tenacity in the face of overwhelming odds.
Grez
Iron Man
> Hmpffft.
>
> Doug, for eschewing your role as Eckankar intellectual you sure ask a lot of
> questions! Can't you just trust what we're (and Ford Johnson!) are telling
> you?? <G>
>
> My recollections are admittedly vague as it was a mere 40 years ago. My mom was
> enamored with Roy, if not vice versa. When Paul asked to come see her after
> Roy's intro, she thought it was to make a move on her. But, he never did to his
> credit as he was recently married to Gail. What year was that?
According to the document posted on Ford's Web site, that would be after
15 January 1964.
Michael
"Iron Man" <Iron_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:e7d42fda.03081...@posting.google.com...
I suspect the memory of Gary is somewhat faulty in many aspects of the
1960's ...
Which is perfectly fair and as it is meant to be, because as they say... If
you remember the 60's ... you weren't really there.
Love
Michael
Doug Marman
Gary, thanks for filling in with some of your memories. Interesting times.
If you believe the bogus stories by this anonymous poster who told his
stories about Brad Steiger and Gail and Paul, then you are far more a
believer than I realized. I can tell you that Brad was both affronted and
disgusted by someone making such things up. Patti's reaction was just about
the same, asking why would people make up crap like that?
Well, in fact the reason is quite obvious. Someone liked the idea of
creating false stories about Paul and the confusion it created. After all
wasn't this what Paul did himself?
Did you know that this same person was on HU Chat telling stories about how
the first time he met Paul that Paul knew his name without any prior
information about him? It was a wonderful story about how he almost died and
was almost arrested as a 14 year old struggling to get to his first ECK
seminar, only to find Paul greeting him by name. This poster was playing
both sides. He was fitting to the mythology of both sides, telling each side
what they wanted to hear.
You bought it because you wanted to believe it.
The stories this person told didn't hold water from the beginning, for
example at one time he claimed that Paul's first wife told him that Paul had
to go back and ask her for a divorce after meeting Gail, because he was
still married. But in fact Paul divorced his first wife years before meeting
Gail, and in fact years before even moving to Seattle.
However, you are just illustrating how people will accept what they agree
with. That's why stories like he told get carried on. Same with Roy's
stories.
I'm always willing to start by accepting the possibility of what someone
says is true, so I'm still at this point with Roy's comments. Maybe they are
true. But those are not just fine hairs I'm splitting, but some rather
gaping problems with his story. Especially the comment that Paul said that
ECKANKAR was his meal ticket in the early 60's before moving out to Seattle.
Sorry, that won't wash. Ask Roy again and point out his error. I'm sure he
will say that perhaps he got that part wrong. So, if he got that memory
wrong, then where did that memory come from?
Same place our beliefs come from. <G>
Doug.
GaryFike
>Message-id: <2HKdnT87tKQ...@comcast.com>
Indeed. Ancient Chinese curse.
It's an interesting subject and a telling tale of how our 'culture' demands
modifications to the Perennial Wisdom to suit it's never ending thirst for
instant gratification and the seemingly unending line of Holey Men who are
more than glad to make a buck off the effort.
>
>If you believe the bogus stories by this anonymous poster who told his
>stories about Brad Steiger and Gail and Paul, then you are far more a
>believer than I realized. I can tell you that Brad was both affronted and
>disgusted by someone making such things up. Patti's reaction was just about
>the same, asking why would people make up crap like that?
Belief IS bogus.
>
>Well, in fact the reason is quite obvious. Someone liked the idea of
>creating false stories about Paul and the confusion it created. After all
>wasn't this what Paul did himself?
Exactly! Shall I invoke the common thread name of Pot-Kettle-Black?
>
>Did you know that this same person was on HU Chat telling stories about how
>the first time he met Paul that Paul knew his name without any prior
>information about him? It was a wonderful story about how he almost died and
>was almost arrested as a 14 year old struggling to get to his first ECK
>seminar, only to find Paul greeting him by name. This poster was playing
>both sides. He was fitting to the mythology of both sides, telling each side
>what they wanted to hear.
>
>You bought it because you wanted to believe it.
Huh? I didn't buy anything. I base my opinions on my own experience and my
trust in my finely tuned B.S. meter.
"You bought it because you wanted to believe it" should go over the door of the
Eck Temple! Thank god I didn't stay around long enough to witness the building
of that abomination.
>The stories this person told didn't hold water from the beginning, for
>example at one time he claimed that Paul's first wife told him that Paul had
>to go back and ask her for a divorce after meeting Gail, because he was
>still married. But in fact Paul divorced his first wife years before meeting
>Gail, and in fact years before even moving to Seattle.
>
>However, you are just illustrating how people will accept what they agree
>with. That's why stories like he told get carried on. Same with Roy's
>stories.
>
>I'm always willing to start by accepting the possibility of what someone
>says is true, so I'm still at this point with Roy's comments. Maybe they are
>true. But those are not just fine hairs I'm splitting, but some rather
>gaping problems with his story. Especially the comment that Paul said that
>ECKANKAR was his meal ticket in the early 60's before moving out to Seattle.
>Sorry, that won't wash. Ask Roy again and point out his error. I'm sure he
>will say that perhaps he got that part wrong. So, if he got that memory
>wrong, then where did that memory come from?
Well, big surprise, you completely ignored the point I was trying to make. You
can tickle the keys of history until hell freezes over but the sound Paul
Twitchell and Eckankar makes
is so loud I can't hear what you are saying. I know you know what I'm saying.
Nitpick with Ford Johnson and David Lane all you want. I'm not smarter than
you, but I knew Paul better than you and I'm telling you the man just wasn't
what you want him to be. He was an opportunist and a charlatan.
"It's an interesting subject and a telling tale of how our 'culture' demands
modifications to the Perennial Wisdom to suit it's never ending thirst for
instant gratification and the seemingly unending line of Holey Men who are more
than glad to make a buck off the effort."
You can spend your life being a Papal Emissary to Ford Johnson's Martin Luther
if you want Doug. That's your business but, frankly, I just don't see what you
get out of it. Frankly, I think you have more to offer people than excuses for
a man and an organization gone wrong.
>Same place our beliefs come from. <G>
Are you a True Believer or a historian? Can't be both I'm afraid.
G.
>Doug.
Doug Marman
I'm not particularly interested in being either.
I do get your point about how our culture continues to airbrush our leaders,
but this is true for all of our leaders, not just spiritual leaders. The
stories now coming out about JFK and his serious drug and health problems
seem to teach everyone once again that most leaders are just like everyone
else.
Unfortunately, this is really no more than the modern myth. By saying this I
don't mean there isn't some truth in it. Of course there is always some
truth in myths. But debunking the Perennial Wisdom is the popular practice
of today. It certainly doesn't show individuality or originality to make
such statements these days. To stand up for a spiritual teaching is far more
rare today.
The fact is that all leaders, including spiritual leaders, are human beings.
This doesn't mean, however, that they do not also act and speak from higher
states of consciousness. The physical details of JFK's life, or Paul's life,
might cause us to shake our head, but their lives were still able to touch
many others. That's why they were leaders.
Armchair critics will always be attacking our leaders and trying to imagine
that they were no more than everyone else. It is easy talk and the kind of
pasttime of those too afraid to be leaders themselves.
I've enjoyed these discussions because I think there has been a dynamic at
work in them. Notice that I've spent probably 80-90 percent of my posts
responding to detractors. I think the dynamic brings out something useful.
But I agree that it is about time for a new harmonic, as Gurdjieff used to
call it.
Life spoke to me the following words one late night. She asked me to
right them down for my own sake:
Listen to the tears
Behind their words.
Their wounds are speaking
Through their tongues and furtive glances.
Brothers don't look away.
They carry the wounds in their own hearts.
Transform your own wounds into lessons of wisdom
So that you might lift your Brother's life
As if it were your own.
Doug.
GaryFike
>>
>> G.
>
>I'm not particularly interested in being either.
>
>I do get your point about how our culture continues to airbrush our leaders,
>but this is true for all of our leaders, not just spiritual leaders. The
>stories now coming out about JFK and his serious drug and health problems
>seem to teach everyone once again that most leaders are just like everyone
>else.
>
>Unfortunately, this is really no more than the modern myth. By saying this I
>don't mean there isn't some truth in it. Of course there is always some
>truth in myths. But debunking the Perennial Wisdom is the popular practice
>of today. It certainly doesn't show individuality or originality to make
>such statements these days. To stand up for a spiritual teaching is far more
>rare today.
Yes, "stand for something or fall for anything" may apply. That's why I try not
to be annoyed when the Jevovah's Witnesses interrupt my meditation. They are
sincere in their misguided and fear-based beliefs. You could say they don't
know any better. Many Eckists I know *do* know better but they, for
self-centered, reasons, pretend Eckankar is not only "good enough" but is the
inside track back to God. As you know, this is wrong-headed if not ridiculous.
Besides, as Ford writes in his book, good enough is not good enough when it
comes to the spiritual journey.
>
>The fact is that all leaders, including spiritual leaders, are human beings.
>This doesn't mean, however, that they do not also act and speak from higher
>states of consciousness. The physical details of JFK's life, or Paul's life,
>might cause us to shake our head, but their lives were still able to touch
>many others. That's why they were leaders.
Yes, and George W. is a leader too and he touches all our lives. You may not
like *where* he's leading, but he is leading with the tax thing and the
terrorist thing. But, would we call him wise or say he is demonstrating a
"higher consciousness"? Call it karma, fate, or destiny but Harold was simply
in the right place and the right time. I don't see where he is qualified to
lead anybody anywhere. What are his credentials other than self-gloss?
>Armchair critics will always be attacking our leaders and trying to imagine
>that they were no more than everyone else. It is easy talk and the kind of
>pasttime of those too afraid to be leaders themselves.
Hm. This is kind of silly and ill thought out. Is George W. or even Al Gore
"more" than everyone else or just the sons of privledge? Paul was a Charismatic
Leader, Darwin less so, and Harold barely registers on the leader scale.
We can't all be leaders Doug. Who would be left to follow? <g>
>I've enjoyed these discussions because I think there has been a dynamic at
>work in them. Notice that I've spent probably 80-90 percent of my posts
>responding to detractors. I think the dynamic brings out something useful.
More than you know.
>But I agree that it is about time for a new harmonic, as Gurdjieff used to
>call it.
>
> Life spoke to me the following words one late night. She asked me to
>right them down for my own sake:
> Listen to the tears
> Behind their words.
> Their wounds are speaking
> Through their tongues and furtive glances.
> Brothers don't look away.
> They carry the wounds in their own hearts.
> Transform your own wounds into lessons of wisdom
> So that you might lift your Brother's life
> As if it were your own.
That's beautiful and certainly a cornerstone of the Perennial Wisdom.
Alas, it is just opposite of how Harold conducts himself as evidenced by his
letters to Ford and Graham. He comes from fear, authoritarianism , and lack of
compassion. He is a wounded one. He needs heal himself so he can attempt to
heal Eckankar and LEAD his followers into, as you say, "a new harmonic".
Gary
>Doug.
@aloha.net Rich
"GaryFike" <gary...@aol.com> wrote
> Alas, it is just opposite of how Harold conducts himself as evidenced
by his
> letters to Ford and Graham. He comes from fear, authoritarianism , and
lack of
> compassion. He is a wounded one. He needs heal himself so he can
attempt to
> heal Eckankar and LEAD his followers into, as you say, "a new
harmonic".
Your one sided opinion of Harold's statement is not a fact. There is
nothing to back it up. Harold's statement indicated none of those
things. It could simply be the truth. Graham may indeed be under some
influence that is not positive. Are you sure he is not?
` o
|
~/|
_/ |\
/ | \
-/ | \
_ /____|___\_
(___________/
Rich~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Sailing the CyberSea~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Cultbuster
Rich wrote:
> "GaryFike" <gary...@aol.com> wrote
>
> > Alas, it is just opposite of how Harold conducts himself as evidenced
> by his
> > letters to Ford and Graham. He comes from fear, authoritarianism , and
> lack of
> > compassion. He is a wounded one. He needs heal himself so he can
> attempt to
> > heal Eckankar and LEAD his followers into, as you say, "a new
> harmonic".
>
> Your one sided opinion of Harold's statement is not a fact. There is
> nothing to back it up. Harold's statement indicated none of those
> things. It could simply be the truth. Graham may indeed be under some
> influence that is not positive. Are you sure he is not?
>
> `
Was America under some "influence that is not positive" about WWII Germany?
Oh wait, I forgot...aren't you the one who believes all those Jews deserved
what they got? Aren't you the one who jumped up and down, threatening Ben
Douglas to take YOUR picture off his website and associating you with a Jew
hater or face litigation? I'd be pissed too. Kinda like the Zuma
page.....makes you look pretty bad when you see yourself in a new light with
info that you yourself posted.
Tsk. Such a sorry soul.
CB
GaryFike
>
>
>"GaryFike" <gary...@aol.com> wrote
>
>> Alas, it is just opposite of how Harold conducts himself as evidenced
>by his
>> letters to Ford and Graham. He comes from fear, authoritarianism , and
>lack of
>> compassion. He is a wounded one. He needs heal himself so he can
>attempt to
>> heal Eckankar and LEAD his followers into, as you say, "a new
>harmonic".
>
>Your one sided opinion of Harold's statement is not a fact.
Right. An opinion is not a fact. <g>
My opinion is based on Harold's public record, including his biography and
including my personal observations of him long before he "ascended to the
throne."
His life appears to be remarkably unremarkable except for his psycotic episodes
and his victory over Darwin in the Eckankar palace coup of the 1980's.
There is
>nothing to back it up. Harold's statement indicated none of those
>things. It could simply be the truth. Graham may indeed be under some
>influence that is not positive. Are you sure he is not?
Well, let's look at Ford Johnson's reaction to Harold's displinary letter to
him. Page 68:
"....But the brevity of his letter and his silence on the content of the
journal surprised me. The was little explanation for my discipline, at least
none that would help me, A CHELA (emphasis mine) to understand the spiritual
lesson I was expected to learn."
Like I said, "... it is just opposite of how Harold conducts himself as
evidenced by his letters to Ford and Graham. He comes from fear,
authoritarianism , and lack of compassion. He is a wounded one. He needs heal
himself so he can attempt to heal Eckankar and LEAD his followers into, as you
say, "a new harmonic".
Gary
< tired little boat snipped. In dire need of dry dock>
cher
Don't confuse the ugly words you guys post and mean with those you take
from others and spin in order to attempt to make people look as bad you
do! That's a whole different story, alfie! You really do appear to
exist for no other reason then to hold fierce grudges, alfie. Talk about
a sorry soul!!!! Look in the mirror sometime! tsk........
Michael
Oh I see...
Harold is the wounded one...
Riiiiiigghhhtt.....
Of course, that's how it is Gary... We should have known <G>
Love
Michael
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
@aloha.net Rich
"GaryFike" <gary...@aol.com> wrote
> >
> >"GaryFike" <gary...@aol.com> wrote
> >
> >> Alas, it is just opposite of how Harold conducts himself as
evidenced
> >by his
> >> letters to Ford and Graham. He comes from fear, authoritarianism ,
and
> >lack of
> >> compassion. He is a wounded one. He needs heal himself so he can
> >attempt to
> >> heal Eckankar and LEAD his followers into, as you say, "a new
> >harmonic".
> >
> >Your one sided opinion of Harold's statement is not a fact.
>
> Right. An opinion is not a fact. <g>
>
> My opinion is based on Harold's public record, including his biography
and
> including my personal observations of him long before he "ascended to
the
> throne."
So are mine. You spew all negative. I look to a realistic balance.
> His life appears to be remarkably unremarkable except for his psycotic
episodes
> and his victory over Darwin in the Eckankar palace coup of the 1980's.
>
> There is
> >nothing to back it up. Harold's statement indicated none of those
> >things. It could simply be the truth. Graham may indeed be under
some
> >influence that is not positive. Are you sure he is not?
>
> Well, let's look at Ford Johnson's reaction to Harold's displinary
letter to
> him. Page 68:
You use Ford non-facts about Harold's attitude to back you up? <chuckle>
> "....But the brevity of his letter and his silence on the content of
the
> journal surprised me. The was little explanation for my discipline, at
least
> none that would help me, A CHELA (emphasis mine) to understand the
spiritual
> lesson I was expected to learn."
Sounds like Harold alright. He understood the situation, took a simple
decisive action, end of issue for him. He is obviously not interested
in attempting to change anyone's mind or stopping anyone from leaving
Eckankar. Ford didn't get the argument he wanted. Case dismissed.
> Like I said, "... it is just opposite of how Harold conducts himself
as
> evidenced by his letters to Ford and Graham. He comes from fear,
Silly you... Your personal projection tells us so much about _you_, not
Harold.
> authoritarianism ,
So you believe that a leader shouldn't act with authority? :-O I'd be
willing to bet that you have also called him many names that are just
the opposite.
> and lack of compassion. He is a wounded one. He needs heal
> himself so he can attempt to heal Eckankar and LEAD his followers
into, as you
> say, "a new harmonic".
We already are aware of the challenges of the hurt in your life that
lead you so low Gary. One you might still consider working on is to
realize that everyone is not like you. Harold's doing just fine without
your advise.
Doug Marman
All of your comments seem to be aimed at issues that obviously bother you
about other people, but I don't see how they have anything to do with me.
Yet, I get the impression you are writing as if it is a response to what I
was saying.
I can see that you don't like others with the qualities you list. I follow
your points, as well. Did you think that these things had something to do
with me?
For example, I don't think you would disagree too much with my perspective
on the path of ECK and the inside track to God. I certainly don't fit the
description of who you were describing that you didn't like. You should know
me well enough to know that.
I also think George W. has accomplished some useful things and has changed
things, so at least he is making an effort to create what he believes in.
Did you think that would bother me?
Who said Al Gore or George W. were more than other people? The point is that
they are doing things and this is why they are leaders. Armchair critics
prefer to criticize things. The irony is that they accomplish nothing with
their criticism, yet for some reason feel superior, as if their advice is
worth more than people who actually get things done.
You say "More than you know," but in fact I do know and that is exactly my
same point. I'm not talking about something else. We're talking about the
same thing. However, for some reason simply because I say it you start
looking for the way to see that it is wrong. Looks funny when you are saying
the same thing, however.
And you like my poetry, but put it down because it is not what Harold says.
When Ford says something different, it is all hoorahs, but if I say
something different it is irrelevant because Harold isn't saying the same
thing.
Whoever you were responding to, it obviously wasn't me, but I get the
impression you think it was me.
If your idea of who I am and where I'm coming from is so far off the mark,
why do you think you see Harold or Paul any clearer?
Doug.
"GaryFike" <gary...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030817133451...@mb-m13.aol.com...
GaryFike
>Message-id: <bbydneKQXPe...@comcast.com>
>
>Gary,
>
>All of your comments seem to be aimed at issues that obviously bother you
>about other people, but I don't see how they have anything to do with me.
>Yet, I get the impression you are writing as if it is a response to what I
>was saying.
Yes, I am responding to what you were saying. What was it that you were saying?
<g>
>
>I can see that you don't like others with the qualities you list. I follow
>your points, as well. Did you think that these things had something to do
>with me?
They have to do with all of us.
>For example, I don't think you would disagree too much with my perspective
>on the path of ECK and the inside track to God. I certainly don't fit the
>description of who you were describing that you didn't like. You should know
>me well enough to know that.
I don't know you at all. I only know what you write here.
You could say the same about me.
>I also think George W. has accomplished some useful things and has changed
>things, so at least he is making an effort to create what he believes in.
>Did you think that would bother me?
You said "This doesn't mean, however, that they (leaders) do not also act and
speak from higher states of consciousness". That was my point. I don't think
leaders do this, I think they just have more ambition than the rest of us.
Study your history Doug. Most leaders save a few were not what you would call
Spiritual Giants by any stretch of the imagination.
>
>Who said Al Gore or George W. were more than other people? The point is that
>they are doing things and this is why they are leaders. Armchair critics
>prefer to criticize things. The irony is that they accomplish nothing with
>their criticism, yet for some reason feel superior, as if their advice is
>worth more than people who actually get things done.
Saddam got things done. Bin Laden got things done. Are we to admire them and
let them go their merry way? Are you saying that because Harold pulled off the
Eckankar palace coup and has solidified his total control over the org and it's
people, that we should admire him and not second guess or criticize him?
To your knowledge, has one bit of
criticism of Harold ever been published or discussed in an Eckankar venue? Does
this mean Harold is beyond reproach? Of course he isn't. He just goes out of
his way to make sure it doesn't happen in Eckankar. This is cultic Doug. Ford
tried to quietly float an idea before Harold and was slapped down summarily.
This is why A.R.E. and the other forums are the greatest boon to ever happen to
Eckankar, otherwise Harold and his emissaries would start believing their own
B.S. and nothing adverse would ever see the light of day. This means Eckankar
would collapse under its own weight.
Again, I don't want to nitpick with you (you are far too expert for the likes
of me). I just want you to fulfill your mission as Eckankar leader and start
leading this Org somewhere where its never been before....the galaxy of
Transparency.
>You say "More than you know," but in fact I do know and that is exactly my
>same point. I'm not talking about something else. We're talking about the
>same thing. However, for some reason simply because I say it you start
>looking for the way to see that it is wrong. Looks funny when you are saying
>the same thing, however.
I'm getting dizzy.
>
>And you like my poetry, but put it down because it is not what Harold says.
>When Ford says something different, it is all hoorahs, but if I say
>something different it is irrelevant because Harold isn't saying the same
>thing.
Aarghhh! I'm melting....
>
>Whoever you were responding to, it obviously wasn't me, but I get the
>impression you think it was me.
It was the "voices"...
>If your idea of who I am and where I'm coming from is so far off the mark,
>why do you think you see Harold or Paul any clearer?
Ah, the coup de grace. Nice, nice, nice, ouch. Passive, passive, passive,
aggressive.
Doug, I don't recall meeting you at the 1st Worldwide or seeing you in the car
when Paul came over to the house. Maybe you could just accept what I say
because I'm smart and I was there and because.......
I HAVE SPOKEN!
<GG>
@aloha.net Rich
"GaryFike" <gary...@aol.com> wrote
> To your knowledge, has one bit of
> criticism of Harold ever been published or discussed in an Eckankar
venue?
Sure. Questions have been published in books and in every Mystic World
with the "Ask the Master" format. Of course they are not antagonistic.
A respectful approach by those that are not closed minded often get
answered.
> Does
> this mean Harold is beyond reproach? Of course he isn't.
Right. There are always ways to criticize in an imperfect world.
> He just goes out of
> his way to make sure it doesn't happen in Eckankar. This is cultic
Doug.
If it were true...
> Ford
> tried to quietly float an idea before Harold and was slapped down
summarily.
Slapped down? Reality check is more like it.
> This is why A.R.E. and the other forums are the greatest boon to ever
happen to
> Eckankar, otherwise Harold and his emissaries would start believing
their own
> B.S. and nothing adverse would ever see the light of day. This means
Eckankar
> would collapse under its own weight.
LOL! As if the light of day of A.R.E. would effect the function of the
Eckankar teachings.
> Again, I don't want to nitpick with you (you are far too expert for
the likes
> of me). I just want you to fulfill your mission as Eckankar leader and
start
> leading this Org somewhere where its never been before....the galaxy
of
> Transparency.
Your desire to bring down Eckankar is transparent. Doug is anything but
an Eckankar missionary. Sad that you are so blind to that. Most Eckist
who read the nonsense that is attempted to be floated here turn away
from it as ugly jetsam.
> >You say "More than you know," but in fact I do know and that is
exactly my
> >same point. I'm not talking about something else. We're talking about
the
> >same thing. However, for some reason simply because I say it you
start
> >looking for the way to see that it is wrong. Looks funny when you are
saying
> >the same thing, however.
>
> I'm getting dizzy.
Can't standing to agree will do that.
> >And you like my poetry, but put it down because it is not what Harold
says.
> >When Ford says something different, it is all hoorahs, but if I say
> >something different it is irrelevant because Harold isn't saying the
same
> >thing.
>
> Aarghhh! I'm melting....
Accepting the reality can be like that.
> >Whoever you were responding to, it obviously wasn't me, but I get the
> >impression you think it was me.
>
> It was the "voices"...
Take your meds. Visit your Al-Anon group. They'll tell you about denial,
again.
> >If your idea of who I am and where I'm coming from is so far off the
mark,
> >why do you think you see Harold or Paul any clearer?
>
> Ah, the coup de grace. Nice, nice, nice, ouch. Passive, passive,
passive,
> aggressive.
Reality bites again and you snip back.
> Doug, I don't recall meeting you at the 1st Worldwide or seeing you in
the car
> when Paul came over to the house. Maybe you could just accept what I
say
> because I'm smart and I was there and because.......
>
> I HAVE SPOKEN!
Pfft...
@aloha.net Rich
"Rich" <rsmith @aloha.net> wrote
> "GaryFike" <gary...@aol.com> wrote
>
> > To your knowledge, has one bit of
> > criticism of Harold ever been published or discussed in an Eckankar
> venue?
>
> Sure. Questions have been published in books and in every Mystic World
> with the "Ask the Master" format. Of course they are not
antagonistic.
> A respectful approach by those that are not closed minded often get
> answered.
It also happens spontaneously in Round Table forums where members and
non-members are generally free to lead the direction of the discussions.
Being such an authority on Eckankar as you claim to be, I'm surprised
that you didn't know about these.
So can we expect that you'll not allude to this allegation again?
HA! I'd bet there isn't a chance of that.
Michael
"Rich" <rsmith @aloha.net> wrote in message
news:bi0m0...@enews4.newsguy.com...
>
> "Rich" <rsmith @aloha.net> wrote
>
> > "GaryFike" <gary...@aol.com> wrote
> >
> > > To your knowledge, has one bit of
> > > criticism of Harold ever been published or discussed in an Eckankar
> > venue?
> >
> > Sure. Questions have been published in books and in every Mystic World
> > with the "Ask the Master" format. Of course they are not
> antagonistic.
> > A respectful approach by those that are not closed minded often get
> > answered.
>
> It also happens spontaneously in Round Table forums where members and
> non-members are generally free to lead the direction of the discussions.
>
> Being such an authority on Eckankar as you claim to be, I'm surprised
> that you didn't know about these.
>
> So can we expect that you'll not allude to this allegation again?
>
> HA! I'd bet there isn't a chance of that.
For the record, I don't put Gary on the Block Sender list, because he is
both intersting and quirky and does come up with good stuff...
This last post of his is none of the above, unfortunately.
Fortunately, I never expect 100% from the lad, and so I am never
disappointed.
However, of late Sri Fike has been disappearing up a long dark passage and
coming out with posts that has a distinct odour about them that has little
that is pleasant or useful in the content. We can only guess where he has
been!
Love
Michael
]
GaryFike
>Date: 8/21/2003 6:51 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <Z741b.50250$bo1....@news-server.bigpond.net.au>
>
>
>"Rich" <rsmith @aloha.net> wrote in message
>news:bi0m0...@enews4.newsguy.com...
>>
>> "Rich" <rsmith @aloha.net> wrote
>>
>> > "GaryFike" <gary...@aol.com> wrote
>> >
>> > > To your knowledge, has one bit of
>> > > criticism of Harold ever been published or discussed in an Eckankar
>> > venue?
>> >
>> > Sure. Questions have been published in books and in every Mystic World
>> > with the "Ask the Master" format. Of course they are not
>> antagonistic.
>> > A respectful approach by those that are not closed minded often get
>> > answered.
Could you post a couple?
And then, if you don't mind, could you post directions to the secret temple up
in the Rockies? I might be doing some climbing up there soon and a secret
temple would make a great side trip. Do a brother a favor?
>>
>> It also happens spontaneously in Round Table forums where members and
>> non-members are generally free to lead the direction of the discussions.
This was *never* my experience. Only the Eckist's perception or understanding
could be wrong, never the master. Evidently, based on Ford and Harold's
interaction, nothing has changed in the last 35 years. Again, post some
examples so we can believe you.
>> Being such an authority on Eckankar as you claim to be, I'm surprised
>> that you didn't know about these.
Funny. I didn't see you or Doug or Michael at the 1st Worldwide in Las Vegas.
Was I looking in the wrong place? I was at the public birth of your *religion*
and, unlike you all, I have no vested interest to protect. My HI status has
been removed (which, by the way, was one of the best things ever to happen to
me.) You don't have to agree with my knowledge of Eckankar but you should
respect it (if such a thing is possible, read on.)
>> So can we expect that you'll not allude to this allegation again?
Why, yes your Honor. If I do feel free to whack my peepee.
>> HA! I'd bet there isn't a chance of that.
Ahhhh. You are capable of direct perception. <g>
Now comes the Love Doctor:
>For the record, I don't put Gary on the Block Sender list, because he is
>both intersting and quirky and does come up with good stuff...
Oh, massa Love Doctor, you makes me feels so gudd insid !
>This last post of his is none of the above, unfortunately.
Passive/aggressive. This particular pathology seems rampant amongst a.r.e.
Eckists. Or is it just me?
>Fortunately, I never expect 100% from the lad, and so I am never
>disappointed.
Lad? I'm old enough to be your father and I can still kick your ass, boy.
>However, of late Sri Fike has been disappearing up a long dark passage and
>coming out with posts that has a distinct odour about them that has little
>that is pleasant or useful in the content. We can only guess where he has
>been!
Sad. Not only embarrassingly uninspired but a prime example of how the Higher?
Initiates on this group can't even begin to follow the tenets and guidelines of
their own religion. To wit,
-Personal On-line Communications-
"Many ECKists use the Internet or on-line services for personal
communications, some of which may mention ECKANKAR or the ECK
teachings. They have personal Web sites; send E-mail to individuals
or groups; post messages to bulletin boards (bbs's), forums, lists,
and newsgroups; and take part in interactive "chat" discussions.
Being an ECK neighbor on-line is a fulfilling way to serve as a Co-
worker with the Mahanta. ECK neighbor training offers many helpful
tools and tips. See ECKANKAR Guidelines for ECK Neighbor Training.
An aspect of being on-line is your choice of a screen name, URL, or
E-mail address. When you choose these, avoid:
• ECKANKAR terms and trademarks
• Names of ECK masters, e.g., "Rebazar"
• Names associated with other religions, organizations, or
commercial enterprises
ECKANKAR encourages ECKists to share their love of ECK with others
on-line, just as they might in person. ECKists who do this are asked
to be clear that they are speaking for themselves, not ECKANKAR, and
to conduct themselves with grace and respect for the views of
others."
-Regional ECK Web Sites
May 1998, ECKANKAR Guidelines
Well, Neighbor, what you lack in grace is only trumped by your utter contempt
and disrespect for contrarian views of Eckankar. The most vile examples of
contempt and disrespect being the Sam Orez Memorial Website and your attempts
to harm Colleen's professional standing. Should I mention calling someone's
relative to surreptiously get a phone number?
It brings into sharp contrast the dissonance between what Eckankar preaches and
what it's adherents practice. Use your vaunted powers of imagination. Imagine
for a moment that no online Eckist, much less an HI, ever stooped to overcome
and destroy the contrarian characters, including myself, who have passed
through these portals. Imagine how much more respect and admiration the average
reader would have for Eckankar, in it's ability to inspire grace and respect
for all.
Imagination off.
And now, back to reality. You Swordsman of the Sugmad have harmed Eckankar more
than you know. You are killing the very thing you profess to love.
>Love
>
>Michael
You, boy, have no shame.
Gary Fike
cher
Close your eyes for a moment, and drift back to a family gathering when
that one particular family member got off on their favorite subject. The
shoulders dropped, and eyes rolled and there were sighs in each room as
this one relative used the gathering to soap box their particular
obsession. What a way to kill a party! So many memories.... and most of
them are nothing but rote. When they take the relative off to the old
folks home, believe it or not this being complains that no one comes to
visit!
Gary..... get a life! You've been whining this same post now for
decades! geez....
Ken
"GaryFike" <gary...@aol.com> wrote ...
>
> Funny. I didn't see you or Doug or Michael at the 1st Worldwide in Las Vegas.
> Was I looking in the wrong place? I was at the public birth of your *religion*
> and, unlike you all, I have no vested interest to protect.
No vested interests?
Only justifying your leaving Eckankar over and over and over again.
Just more salve for the self-inflicted wound.
> My HI status has
> been removed (which, by the way, was one of the best things ever to happen to
> me.) You don't have to agree with my knowledge of Eckankar but you should
> respect it (if such a thing is possible, read on.)
Your first-hand knowledge of Eckankar is 30 years out of date. And trying
to paint yourself as being unbiased is ludicrous.
GaryFike
>"GaryFike" <gary...@aol.com> wrote ...
>>
>> Funny. I didn't see you or Doug or Michael at the 1st Worldwide in Las
>Vegas.
>> Was I looking in the wrong place? I was at the public birth of your
>*religion*
>> and, unlike you all, I have no vested interest to protect.
>
>No vested interests?
>
>Only justifying your leaving Eckankar over and over and over again.
Ken Doll, that's not a vested interest. A vested interest would be, say, an HI
who derives most of their self-worth from their subtle advertisement of their
exalted position within Eckankar. I didn't leave eckankar "over and over and
over again." I left it once. <g>
>
>Just more salve for the self-inflicted wound.
This particular wound, long healed, was struck by a sociopathic con man with a
god complex by the name of Paul Twitchell.
What's your excuse Ken Doll?
>
>
>> My HI status has
>> been removed (which, by the way, was one of the best things ever to happen
>to
>> me.) You don't have to agree with my knowledge of Eckankar but you should
>> respect it (if such a thing is possible, read on.)
>
>
>Your first-hand knowledge of Eckankar is 30 years out of date. And trying
>to paint yourself as being unbiased is ludicrous.
Jeez, you are thick. First hand knowledge is first hand knowledge. It never
goes "out of date" Mensa. But,
you are right about something. I am admittedly biases against unscrupulous
people and organizations that
take advantage of the public's sincere desire for spiritual truth. You got that
right. Nathan now understand this, why don't you?
Anything else you need to be indignant about with "grace and respect" Ken?
Maybe you can bring up your feigned indignance
at my indignance and horror that an eck chela website would advertise my
sister's murder for a number of years. Did you play a role in that sickness
Ken?
G.
Sam
GaryFike wrote in message <20030822004304...@mb-m17.aol.com>...
I highly doubt Ken was involved, Gary. He doesn't seem that kind of person
to me.
Michael
Poor old Gary seems to have been having a bad hair day...
Nice quoting of rules that you deplore, btw... Have you ever noticed that
there may be considered to be, apart from a large bias on your side of the
fence, a large dose of two faced behaviour?
Yes... "We" all know Eckankar is the source of so many of your woes, Gary
... Most here know you know better than anyone the truth of everything, even
when it is proven wrong. And as a rule, it seems that most here accept you
for what you are.
Love
Michael
"GaryFike" <gary...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030821134121...@mb-m12.aol.com...
> . ECKANKAR terms and trademarks
> . Names of ECK masters, e.g., "Rebazar"
> . Names associated with other religions, organizations, or
Michael
> >
> >"GaryFike" <gary...@aol.com> wrote ...
> >>
> >> Funny. I didn't see you or Doug or Michael at the 1st Worldwide in Las
> >Vegas.
> >> Was I looking in the wrong place? I was at the public birth of your
> >*religion*
> >> and, unlike you all, I have no vested interest to protect.
> >
> >No vested interests?
> >
> >Only justifying your leaving Eckankar over and over and over again.
>
> Ken Doll, that's not a vested interest. A vested interest would be, say,
an HI
> who derives most of their self-worth from their subtle advertisement of
their
> exalted position within Eckankar. I didn't leave eckankar "over and over
and
> over again." I left it once. <g>
Vested interest in promoting an aexhaulted position over and over again...
Wouldn't that be Colleen?
I can't think of ANY Eckist who has sat here and promoted their "exhaulted
position over and over again" other than perhaps Nathan who occasionally
referred to his position as a RESA ... And even he is no longer an ECKist.
Gary... seriously... Are the lines getting a little blurred here?
> >
> >Just more salve for the self-inflicted wound.
>
> This particular wound, long healed, was struck by a sociopathic con man
with a
> god complex by the name of Paul Twitchell.
> What's your excuse Ken Doll?
SO... the long healed wound still seems somewhat open? Oh well...
>
> >
> >
> >> My HI status has
> >> been removed (which, by the way, was one of the best things ever to
happen
> >to
> >> me.) You don't have to agree with my knowledge of Eckankar but you
should
> >> respect it (if such a thing is possible, read on.)
> >
> >
> >Your first-hand knowledge of Eckankar is 30 years out of date. And
trying
> >to paint yourself as being unbiased is ludicrous.
>
> Jeez, you are thick. First hand knowledge is first hand knowledge. It
never
> goes "out of date" Mensa. But,
> you are right about something. I am admittedly biases against unscrupulous
> people and organizations that
> take advantage of the public's sincere desire for spiritual truth. You got
that
> right. Nathan now understand this, why don't you?
OK... Now you are using third party referals to back your own
unsubstantiated claims and biased opinions...
Maybe you should look up the "Third Party Rule" in scientology?
>
> Anything else you need to be indignant about with "grace and respect" Ken?
> Maybe you can bring up your feigned indignance
> at my indignance and horror that an eck chela website would advertise my
> sister's murder for a number of years. Did you play a role in that
sickness
> Ken?
>
> G.
Sickness?
Gary... You are the one who keeps bringing this up. No one would have
noticed, no would have known... You are the one who keeps bring this up.
Perhaps you will understand this... If you really could let the whole thing
go, it would already be gone. But as you want to keep playing black knight
in white knight clothes, it stays around. But that's your business... I
really don't think anything you or anyone says on a.r.e. is going to change
the world overmuch.
Love
Michael
>
>
>
>
>
>
@aloha.net Rich
> >Subject: Re: Revelations on Paul's early days.
> >From: "Michael" fl...@phurphy.com
> >Date: 8/21/2003 6:51 AM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: <Z741b.50250$bo1....@news-server.bigpond.net.au>
> >
> >
> >"Rich" <rsmith @aloha.net> wrote
> >> > "GaryFike" <gary...@aol.com> wrote
> >> >
> >> > > To your knowledge, has one bit of
> >> > > criticism of Harold ever been published or discussed in an Eckankar
> >> > venue?
> >> >
> >> > Sure. Questions have been published in books and in every Mystic World
> >> > with the "Ask the Master" format. Of course they are not
> >> antagonistic.
> >> > A respectful approach by those that are not closed minded often get
> >> > answered.
>
> Could you post a couple?
> And then, if you don't mind, could you post directions to the secret temple up
> in the Rockies? I might be doing some climbing up there soon and a secret
> temple would make a great side trip. Do a brother a favor?
>
> >>
> >> It also happens spontaneously in Round Table forums where members and
> >> non-members are generally free to lead the direction of the discussions.
>
> This was *never* my experience.
> Only the Eckist's perception or understanding
> could be wrong, never the master. Evidently, based on Ford and Harold's
> interaction, nothing has changed in the last 35 years.
> Again, post some
> examples so we can believe you.
> >> Being such an authority on Eckankar as you claim to be, I'm surprised
> >> that you didn't know about these.
>
> Funny. I didn't see you or Doug or Michael at the 1st Worldwide in Las Vegas.
> Was I looking in the wrong place? I was at the public birth of your *religion*
> and, unlike you all,
> I have no vested interest to protect.
> My HI status has
> been removed (which, by the way, was one of the best things ever to happen to
> me.)
> You don't have to agree with my knowledge of Eckankar but you should
> respect it (if such a thing is possible, read on.)
> >> So can we expect that you'll not allude to this allegation again?
>
> Why, yes your Honor. If I do feel free to whack my peepee.
> >> HA! I'd bet there isn't a chance of that.
>
> Ahhhh. You are capable of direct perception. <g>
> Now comes the Love Doctor:
>
> >For the record, I don't put Gary on the Block Sender list, because he is
> >both intersting and quirky and does come up with good stuff...
>
> Oh, massa Love Doctor, you makes me feels so gudd insid !
>
> >This last post of his is none of the above, unfortunately.
>
> Passive/aggressive.
> This particular pathology seems rampant amongst a.r.e.
> Eckists. Or is it just me?
> >Fortunately, I never expect 100% from the lad, and so I am never
> >disappointed.
>
> Lad? I'm old enough to be your father and I can still kick your ass, boy.
> Well, Neighbor, what you lack in grace is only trumped by your utter contempt
> and disrespect for contrarian views of Eckankar. The most vile examples of
> contempt and disrespect being the Sam Orez Memorial Website and your attempts
> to harm Colleen's professional standing. Should I mention calling someone's
> relative to surreptiously get a phone number?
> It brings into sharp contrast the dissonance between what Eckankar preaches and
> what it's adherents practice. Use your vaunted powers of imagination. Imagine
> for a moment that no online Eckist, much less an HI, ever stooped to overcome
> and destroy the contrarian characters, including myself, who have passed
> through these portals. Imagine how much more respect and admiration the average
> reader would have for Eckankar, in it's ability to inspire grace and respect
> for all.
>
> Imagination off.
>
> And now, back to reality. You Swordsman of the Sugmad
> have harmed Eckankar more
> than you know. You are killing the very thing you profess to love.
` o
Sam
Rich > wrote in message ...
Heh hey!
@aloha.net Rich
> And then, if you don't mind, could you post directions to the secret temple up
> in the Rockies? I might be doing some climbing up there soon and a secret
> temple would make a great side trip. Do a brother a favor?
` o
cher
A number of years? Gary, is this exaggeration also true in the other
stories you are sharing with this group? Seems that you've lost the
ability to define a true time line. And that worries me when it comes to
your so called first hand knowledge that you are so hell bent is more
important than anyone elses experiences on this group! Just something to
ponder. Perhaps a side effect of long term alcoholism? Truth and
drinking are not words that generally get linked in the same sentence!
You of all people should know that!
GaryFike
>drinking are not words that generally get linked in the same sentence!
>You of all people should know that!
>
Congrats. I was wondering whick Ekstapo would be the first to take the low
road. Should have known it would the eck C___. (That's Cher if you're
wondering. Another 4 letter C word.) It only took two days. What a wonderful
example you are of the benefits of being an eckist. <smirk>
The last drink I had was 12/11/86. How about you?
Frankly, I think you could use a drink to kill that bug up your ass.
G.
P.S. I am now kicking myself for even acknowledging your existence. Your posts
are as relevant as Darwin G's...
cher
>
> >Perhaps a side effect of long term alcoholism? Truth and
> >drinking are not words that generally get linked in the same sentence!
> >You of all people should know that!
> >
>
> Congrats. I was wondering whick Ekstapo would be the first to take the low
> road. Should have known it would the eck C___. (That's Cher if you're
> wondering. Another 4 letter C word.) It only took two days. What a wonderful
> example you are of the benefits of being an eckist. <smirk>
Ah.... a standard all my own... how thoughtful of you. LOL...... Well my
low road is still head and shoulders above the pit you've dug for
yourself, dear! The depths of your agony is present on this newsgroup
for how many decades now? Hmmmm? Oh.... and gary is a four letter word
as well..... lovey! <grin>
> The last drink I had was 12/11/86. How about you?
Can't stand it.....personal choice! I get high on life, if you must
know. <wink> So then you admit that you were drinking during the time
that you allege to have known Paul personally? Hmmm? Is that what you're
telling us here gary, old boy? How bad was it that you supposedly gave
it up in '86? Kind makes all your stories about this past you keep
bringing up slightly contaminated, doesn't it? I mean these are the
years of your stupor, aren't they? How sober were you when these things
you share happen? Can we believe you then? Why?
> Frankly, I think you could use a drink to kill that bug up your ass.
An alcoholic suggesting that taking a drink is a good idea? Which step
is that one, gary? 13? LOL........
> G.
>
> P.S. I am now kicking myself for even acknowledging your existence. Your posts
> are as relevant as Darwin G's...
Well MEST has no self control.... <lol> Another trait of alcoholics, in
case you hadn't noticed. <grin>
Michael
"Rich" <rsmith @aloha.net> wrote in message news:bi53q...@enews3.newsguy.com...
"GaryFike" <gary...@aol.com> wrote
I missed this.
> And then, if you don't mind, could you post directions to the secret temple up
> in the Rockies? I might be doing some climbing up there soon and a secret
> temple would make a great side trip. Do a brother a favor?
Reading comprehension problems Gary? I wrote I no longer had the map. I wandered around and found it. As I recall, it was thirty years ago, it was about two hours SW of Denver. Wander around yourself to find it. Or ask someone in the Great White Brotherhood. Maybe if you can manage to be respectful they might help you, but I doubt it. When we arrived the children were friendly but the adults were very cool and standoffish. We weren't supposed to be there. Although we saw the temple that was under construction at the time, they wouldn't let us approach it.
Michael
"Rich" <rsmith @aloha.net> wrote in message news:bi4rr...@enews3.newsguy.com...
>>
> And now, back to reality. You Swordsman of the Sugmad
Again you are confused. Nathan was the Swordsman of the Sugmad and most all Eckists chastized him for it at the time. He finally learned about it. More than we can say for you.
> have harmed Eckankar more
> than you know. You are killing the very thing you profess to love.
Obviously you fail to noticed those that have joined Eckankar because of observing how most Eckists here treat the detractors. Bee being the most recent.
Ken
"GaryFike" <gary...@aol.com> wrote ...
> >
> >
Ken wrote...
> >No vested interests?
> >
> >Only justifying your leaving Eckankar over and over and over again.
>
> Ken Doll,
Pointless condescention? Why bother?
> that's not a vested interest. A vested interest would be, say, an HI
> who derives most of their self-worth from their subtle advertisement of their
> exalted position within Eckankar. I didn't leave eckankar "over and over and
> over again." I left it once. <g>
You are so vested in your self-image and in not being an Eckist (and
the maintenance of this lofty position so far above plebes like me who
choose otherwise) that you won't even admit it.
On a.r.e. the sum total of your self-worth (as defined by your contributions
here) is derived from who you *used* to be. Certainly not from what you
cherish and value now.
Just another "Yesterday man".
> >
> >Just more salve for the self-inflicted wound.
>
> This particular wound, long healed, was struck by a sociopathic con man with a
> god complex by the name of Paul Twitchell.
> What's your excuse Ken Doll?
I have no excuse. Don't see the need for one.
> >Your first-hand knowledge of Eckankar is 30 years out of date. And trying
> >to paint yourself as being unbiased is ludicrous.
>
> Jeez, you are thick.
More pointless condescension.
Enjoy it?
> First hand knowledge is first hand knowledge. It never
> goes "out of date" Mensa.
Bullshit. Everything in this world goes out of date.
> But,
> you are right about something. I am admittedly biases against unscrupulous
> people and organizations that
> take advantage of the public's sincere desire for spiritual truth. You got that
> right. Nathan now understand this, why don't you?
I do understand it too. It's one of the few endearing qualities that you
project here.
>
> Anything else you need to be indignant about with "grace and respect" Ken?
> Maybe you can bring up your feigned indignance
> at my indignance and horror that an eck chela website would advertise my
> sister's murder for a number of years. Did you play a role in that sickness
> Ken?
Nope. But if I remember correctly, that web site only repeated what
you shared on a.r.e. I'm waiting for you to explain exactly how it is that
is such a sin.
Doug Marman
Are you sure you don't want to give Gary the secret directions?
Don't you remember that you have to take three steps off the cliff and have
faith, like in Raiders Of The Lost Arc? The secret path is there, but you
can't see it, because it looks like a drop off of a thousand feet, but if
you have faith the path is there.
I think we could trust Gary with these secret directions.
And I'm sure Gary would let us know if he found the secret path or not.
<G>
Doug.
"Rich" <rsmith @aloha.net> wrote in message
news:bi53q...@enews3.newsguy.com...
@aloha.net Rich
"Doug Marman" <d.ma...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:doWcne8aN5K...@comcast.com...
> Rich,
>
> Are you sure you don't want to give Gary the secret directions?
>
> Don't you remember that you have to take three steps off the cliff and
have
> faith, like in Raiders Of The Lost Arc? The secret path is there, but
you
> can't see it, because it looks like a drop off of a thousand feet, but
if
> you have faith the path is there.
>
> I think we could trust Gary with these secret directions.
>
> And I'm sure Gary would let us know if he found the secret path or
not.
>
> <G>
>
> Doug.
It could happen, but knowing his past history I'd suggest that he stay
tied in and check his repelling gear first.<G>
GaryFike
>Date: 8/23/2003 9:38 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <bi9fm...@enews3.newsguy.com>
Ooooohhhhhh. I see. Uh huh.
Tell us more about this map you lost. Where did you come by it? If it wasn't
the astral library surely the same source is still there. Let's look for it
together. I'll help you. I love old maps. Where should we start. Hey, Doug. You
wanna get in on this? You have that special retentive streak in you that would
love to find an old map, eh?
>I
>> wandered around and found it. As I recall, it was thirty years ago,
>it was
>> about two hours SW of Denver. Wander around yourself to find it.
>Or ask
>> someone in the Great White Brotherhood. Maybe if you can manage to be
>> respectful they might help you, but I doubt it. When we arrived the
>> children were friendly but the adults were very cool and standoffish.
The Great White Brotherhood. Sounds a little, ah, let's say, politically
incorrect. I wouldn't wear the tee shirt in Compton, that's for sure.
I hear Brotherhoods can be very secretive. Maybe that's why you seem to have
"forgotten" what must have been a life changing event. Hanging out at a secret
temple of the GWB. Wow.
Anyway, you and Doug seem so taken with these mysterious fraternal
organizations, I made it my business to read up on them.
Here's an interesting quote about the GWB:
Thousands of years ago, 32 extraterrestrial beings, that represented different
civilization united by the forces of light, arrived to Earth in order to
establish an Inner Positive Government…the Great White Brotherhood of the
planet. This took place in the ancient Shamo Desert, that today is known as the
Gobi and is shared by China and Mongolia.
This event, born from the most remote and misterious sands of this Asian
desert, was a seed of the light, a call of alert for humanity during a
definitive and defining moment in its history. Shambhalla, the spiritual center
of the intra terrestrial world of Agartha would become the matrix city and
"focus of enlightenment".
(Rich, do you think this is where you were, Shambhalla? Colorado has some odd
places but I've never heard of Shambhalla. Did these folks you met have, you
know, the usual extraterrestrial hardward like silver space suits and ray guns?
Say, did they speak English well? Probably speak all languages equally well
wouldn't you say? What did you talk about? Did they make any prophecies about
upcoming boat races or such?)
Today, it is not difficult to hear from the mouths of Tibetan Lamas about the
existence of this enclave, once founded in the past by "Teachers from the
Cosmos", with the purpose of counteracting the influence of darkness in the
world, and of becoming a beacon of light and information, destined for a future
humanity, whose purpose will be to restore the lost order between Heaven and
Earth.
(Whoa. And all that from Colorado. Maybe I should move.)
As Time Passes By
With the aid of their advanced technology and of a powerful golden disc, built
with a combination of otherworldly and earthly elements, they were able to
"read" what is known as the Akashic Record, that would be none but what is
known as Van Allen's Belt. Information about the history and origin of our
planet and its possible future, as a logical consequence of everything that has
transpired, was obtained. This type of information is contained in what is
known as "The Book of Those with White Robes" which really consists of a kind
of cosmic library, made up of special rock crystals and metallic plates with
ideograms. In due time, this information will be revealed for human beings to
listen to their true past and origins, to understand their present and, on this
basis, to be able to build a future of peace and harmony upon the Earth, well
connected with other civilizations from the Universe.
(Are you sure Paul didn't crib from these guys too? It's got that special P.T.
Woo-Woo sound to it)
After the 32 extraterrestrial teachers arrived to the Gobi Desert, some 12,000
years ago, what we could call the White Brotherhood's "Second Generation",
consisting of Atlantean survivors, carried on. These had established themselves
in subterranean refuges in many parts of the world. Nowdays, the descendants of
those that survived Plato's lost world, still continue living in the
subterranean world, protecting the archives that hold the "invisible knowledge"
reserved for humanity's future.
(I got it! You were underground! No wonder you can't seem to recall the
slightest detail of this lost city of the Great White Brotherhood. Next time
bring a flashlight)
>We >> weren't supposed to be there. Although we saw the temple that was
>under
>> construction at the time, they wouldn't let us approach it.
You're scaring me Rich. You sure you want to stick with this story?
>>
>> ` o
>> |
>> ~/|
>> _/ |\
>> / | \
>> -/ | \
>> _ /____|___\_
>> (___________/
>> Rich~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Sailing the CyberSea~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That sail's looking a little sloppy sailor.
@aloha.net Rich
> >From: "Rich" rsm...@aloha.net
> >>
> >> Are you sure you don't want to give Gary the secret directions?
> >>
> >> Don't you remember that you have to take three steps off the cliff and
> >have
> >> faith, like in Raiders Of The Lost Arc? The secret path is there, but
> >you
> >> can't see it, because it looks like a drop off of a thousand feet, but
> >if
> >> you have faith the path is there.
> >>
> >> I think we could trust Gary with these secret directions.
> >>
> >> And I'm sure Gary would let us know if he found the secret path or
> >not.
> >>
> >> <G>
> >>
> >> Doug.
> >
> >It could happen, but knowing his past history I'd suggest that he stay
> >tied in and check his repelling gear first.<G>
> >>
> >> I missed this.
> >>
> >> > And then, if you don't mind, could you post directions to the secret
> >> temple up
> >> > in the Rockies? I might be doing some climbing up there soon and a
> >secret
> >> > temple would make a great side trip. Do a brother a favor?
> >>
> >> Reading comprehension problems Gary? I wrote I no longer had the map.
>
> Ooooohhhhhh. I see. Uh huh.
>
> Tell us more about this map you lost. Where did you come by it? If it wasn't
> the astral library surely the same source is still there. Let's look for it
> together. I'll help you. I love old maps. Where should we start. Hey, Doug. You
> wanna get in on this? You have that special retentive streak in you that would
> love to find an old map, eh?
> >it was
> >> about two hours SW of Denver. Wander around yourself to find it.
> >Or ask
> >> someone in the Great White Brotherhood. Maybe if you can manage to be
> >> respectful they might help you, but I doubt it. When we arrived the
> >> children were friendly but the adults were very cool and standoffish.
>
>
> The Great White Brotherhood. Sounds a little, ah, let's say, politically
> incorrect. I wouldn't wear the tee shirt in Compton, that's for sure.
>
> I hear Brotherhoods can be very secretive. Maybe that's why you seem to have
> "forgotten" what must have been a life changing event. Hanging out at a secret
> temple of the GWB. Wow.
> Anyway, you and Doug seem so taken with these mysterious fraternal
> organizations, I made it my business to read up on them.
>
> Here's an interesting quote about the GWB:
>
>
> Thousands of years ago, 32 extraterrestrial beings, that represented different
> civilization united by the forces of light, arrived to Earth in order to
> establish an Inner Positive Government…the Great White Brotherhood of the
> planet. This took place in the ancient Shamo Desert, that today is known as the
> Gobi and is shared by China and Mongolia.
>
> This event, born from the most remote and misterious sands of this Asian
> desert, was a seed of the light, a call of alert for humanity during a
> definitive and defining moment in its history. Shambhalla, the spiritual center
> of the intra terrestrial world of Agartha would become the matrix city and
> "focus of enlightenment".
>
> (Rich, do you think this is where you were, Shambhalla?
> places but I've never heard of Shambhalla. Did these folks you met have, you
> know, the usual extraterrestrial hardward like silver space suits and ray guns?
> Say, did they speak English well? Probably speak all languages equally well
> wouldn't you say? What did you talk about? Did they make any prophecies about
> upcoming boat races or such?)
> Today, it is not difficult to hear from the mouths of Tibetan Lamas about the
> existence of this enclave, once founded in the past by "Teachers from the
> Cosmos", with the purpose of counteracting the influence of darkness in the
> world, and of becoming a beacon of light and information, destined for a future
> humanity, whose purpose will be to restore the lost order between Heaven and
> Earth.
>
> (Whoa. And all that from Colorado. Maybe I should move.)
> >We >> weren't supposed to be there. Although we saw the temple that was
> >under
> >> construction at the time, they wouldn't let us approach it.
>
> You're scaring me Rich. You sure you want to stick with this story?
> That sail's looking a little sloppy sailor.
`
o
|
~/|
_/ |\
/ | \
-/ |
\
_/____|___\_
Rich ~~~~~~~~~(__________/~~~~~~Sailing the
CyberSea~~~~~~~~~~
Michael
Gary is certaily giving the repelling ger a good work over...
Can't trust that leap of faith... better to have a good repell <G>
Love
Michael
"GaryFike" <gary...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030824020650...@mb-m27.aol.com...
> establish an Inner Positive Government.the Great White Brotherhood of the
Cultbuster
Ken wrote:
> Bullshit. Everything in this world goes out of date.
>
Geez, I dunno man.....I like sex just like the next cavemen!!!<G>
CB
GaryFike
>
>Can't trust that leap of faith... better to have a good repell <G>
>
Rappel On!
Jeezus. If you're going to try and insult me at least spell it right.
It's rappel. Or abseil.
It causes most climbing deaths. I've come close a couple of times. Actually,
I've hit the ground three times and walked away.
I know who to thank for those 'miracles' and it ain't anyone who advertises.
Rappel Off!
Ken
"Rich" <rsmith @aloha.net> wrote ...
>
> It's because you're posting in HTML.
Actually Rich, Gary's post was in plain text. You might want to check your
newsreader settings as you're the one posting in html.
(And btw, the boat looks fine in fixed size font).
cher
cool... well that means the protestants are off the hook then! LOL....
especially the Morons! <grin>
@aloha.net Rich
"Ken" <kah...@attachments.att.net> wrote in message
news:xz42b.111928$3o3.7...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>
> "Rich" <rsmith @aloha.net> wrote ...
> >
> > It's because you're posting in HTML.
>
>
> Actually Rich, Gary's post was in plain text.
Almost all my posts come in thru the newsreader in the same plain text
but because I have Outlook Express set to respond in the same text that
it was sent, his are coming thru in a different and smaller font.
Sometimes this stuff is confusing in how the newsreader and E-mail
program handle the text, but that's why the boat sig looked funny to
him. Whatever....<G>
` o
|
~/|
_/ |\
/ | \
-/ | \
Michael
Gary... I guess it is not a good day for you, but it 'was' a pun on Rich's
mispelling
However, I considered it a freudian slip, rather than a typo. I considered
working in the sale of ads, but let it go... which is probably good because
you would have harped on about that as well.
Oh well...
Love
Michael
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
@aloha.net Rich
"Michael" <fl...@phurphy.com> wrote
>
> "GaryFike" <gary...@aol.com> wrote
> > >Gary is certaily giving the repelling ger a good work over...
> > >
> > >Can't trust that leap of faith... better to have a good repell <G>
> > >
> >
> > Rappel On!
> >
> > Jeezus. If you're going to try and insult me at least spell it
right.
> >
> > It's rappel. Or abseil.
> >
> > It causes most climbing deaths. I've come close a couple of times.
> Actually,
> > I've hit the ground three times and walked away.
> >
> > I know who to thank for those 'miracles' and it ain't anyone who
> advertises.
> >
> > Rappel Off!
> >
>
> Gary... I guess it is not a good day for you, but it 'was' a pun on
Rich's
> mispelling
Not many good days for poor old Gary.
MY misspeling? ;-) Again Gary demonstrates his blindness to other
realities. These are to a store, a climbing manual and US Army gear.
http://www.okdirect.com/samsbestbuys/repelling.html
http://ruckus.org/man/climbing/ascending_to_repelling.html
http://www.1starmy.com/Secure/ecommerce/details.asp?prdn=216
` o
|
~/|
_/ |\
/ | \
-/ | \
_ /____|___\_
(___________/
Rich~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Sailing the CyberSea~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> However, I considered it a freudian slip, rather than a typo. I
Michael
>
> "Michael" <fl...@phurphy.com> wrote
> >
> > "GaryFike" <gary...@aol.com> wrote
> > > >Gary is certaily giving the repelling ger a good work over...
> > > >
> > > >Can't trust that leap of faith... better to have a good repell <G>
> > > >
> > >
> > > Rappel On!
> > >
> > > Jeezus. If you're going to try and insult me at least spell it
> right.
> > >
> > > It's rappel. Or abseil.
> > >
> > > It causes most climbing deaths. I've come close a couple of times.
> > Actually,
> > > I've hit the ground three times and walked away.
> > >
> > > I know who to thank for those 'miracles' and it ain't anyone who
> > advertises.
> > >
> > > Rappel Off!
> > >
> >
> > Gary... I guess it is not a good day for you, but it 'was' a pun on
> Rich's
> > mispelling
>
> Not many good days for poor old Gary.
> MY misspeling? ;-) Again Gary demonstrates his blindness to other
> realities. These are to a store, a climbing manual and US Army gear.
> http://www.okdirect.com/samsbestbuys/repelling.html
> http://ruckus.org/man/climbing/ascending_to_repelling.html
> http://www.1starmy.com/Secure/ecommerce/details.asp?prdn=216
> ` o
So... I was not even punning on a Typo? Hurrumph...
I am sobbing in my boots... While Gary goes SOB'ing in his mind <G>
Love
Michael
GaryFike
>realities. These are to a store, a climbing manual and US Army gear.
>http://www.okdirect.com/samsbestbuys/repelling.html
>http://ruckus.org/man/climbing/ascending_to_repelling.html
>http://www.1starmy.com/Secure/ecommerce/details.asp?prdn=216
See, that's a key to your whole problem Rich. You figure if you can get two or
three morons to agree with you it must be true. Same thing Paul Twitchell did.
Here, this is the spelling from a real DICTIONARY. If I have to keep
reeducating you I'm going to have to charge...and I'm not cheap:
Pronunciation Key
Main Entry: rap搆el
Pronunciation: r&-'pel, ra-
Function: intransitive verb
Inflected Form(s): -pelled also -peled; -pel損ing also -pel搏ng
Etymology: French, literally, recall, from Old French rapel, from rapeler to
recall, from re- + apeler to appeal, call -- more at APPEAL
Date: 1944
: to descend (as from a cliff) by sliding down a rope passed under one thigh,
across the body, and over the opposite shoulder or through a special friction
device
- rappel noun
@aloha.net Rich
cher
Sheeeeeesh..... Some days I think you bounced off that cliff one too
many times, gary. <chuckle>
Sean
They just don't get it do they? <G>
Michael
"Sean" <lifes...@earth.org> wrote in message
news:3f4b...@news.comindico.com.au...
Well... Gary is getting on a bit, and there are a lot of words on this NG
... It is easy to get a little off the track.
As I said, he may get it wrong, but I still like him. At least he speaks
what he genuinely believes to be his truth... even if it does appear a
little bent and twisted along the way <G>
Love
Michael