Very Interesting...
JoeySays
with an incontrovertible truth that they can't weasel out of.
#1 They completely ignore your post.
#2 They go on a personal attack rampage.
My post "The AWESOME concert at Woodstock" has obviously rattled the
support beams of the detractor house of cards. It is understandable. It
was David Lane's shining hour until it blew up in smoke. Detractors
quoted it for years. It was their cannon. Now it doesn't even spit
water. So much of Lane's accusations of fraud were dependent on it.
So ignoring the post and it's message is the first step to denial. The
second step is to create a diversion. Personal attacks on Cher and to a
lesser extent, myself have been ratchetted up in the past two days.
It looks like we have a post about to become a regular item in A.R.E.
I am sitting here grinning from ear to ear. This can be soooooo much fun
sometime.
Joey
M B
ECKAnKAR
"JoeySays" <gal...@nospam.aol.com> wrote in message
news:198b17e4fa56158a...@localhost.talkaboutreligion.com...
cher
are protective of Eckankar all of a sudden.... considering all you do is
bad mouth the path from some bent perspective about wanting it fixed to
suit your demands. <sigh> What a flake! A split mind is at least funny
to watch. <chuckle>
leaf
Its very likely no one read your post, Joey. I read the first sentence
or two and then went on to something else. I suspect others simply
skipped over it, as well. It looked like another long, tired rant that
went nowhere.
Leaf
killer
but it wasn't really Woodstock. It was some pretend Woodstock that you
attended in Georgia. I am glad you had a good time at Woodstock that
wasn't Woodstock. To you this somehow sheds light on Paul's claim that
he and his sister went to Paris together. Paul states she went to study
art. You and Doug Marman now want to claim Paul probably meant Paris
Kentucky not Paris France. It seemed clear to me when I read the book
In My Soul I am Free, Paul was claiming Paris France. He says that he
hooked up with Sudar Singh in Paris at that time as I recall. If they
actually went to Paris Kentucy I feel sorry for Kay Dee. No wonder she
never went far in the art world. Who in their right mind would go to
Paris Kentucky in order to further an art career? That would be like
going to a concert in Georgia in the 1990's and comparing it to
Woodstock New York in 1969. Actually if you take Doug's claim to be
true that means poor Kay Dee went all the way from China
Point(fictional citry) to that bustling capitol of art: Paris,
Kentucky. What was in vogue art wise in Paris Kentucky in the
1930's?What school's of art were practising there? Who were the artists
she went to study under. You see if you accept Doug's claim that Paul
meant Paris Kentucky then you are stuck with this. If I were Kay Dee
and wanting to study art, Paris France would be my destination of
choice.
In regards to the Woodsock you went to in Georgia, you missed Hendrix.
cher
are willing to share what they've mastered of their craft. It's too bad
that you forgot Paul didn't author this book himself. <shrug> I
understand what Joey is addressing here... and that people would jump to
the most romantic conclusions without looking deeper? Well... Brad
understood that part extremely well. Actually the odd thing is.... the
people who leap to these conclusions are the ones who read lane's book
and apply the same tool there to his material. <shrug> I guess some bad
habits are hard to break. Perhaps someday you'll get the lesson in this
experience? It's a worthy one for spiritual students. <wink>
killer
to Paris with Kay Dee who went to study art. You cannot get a lot
details off the internet about Paris Kentucky and it's current art
community. Today they have a museum and an art gallery or two.I am sure
there are some talented people there currently and 70 years ago? But
there is no historical record detailing any art tradition worth
mentioning. It doesn't take an Art History buff to see this is obvious.
Please compare for a minute the place in art history occupied by Paris
Kentucky and that of Paris France. So if Paul and Kay Dee went to Paris
Kentucky to pursue her art career, and also to open the door to his
spirtual career it is wierd beyond belief. You see Doug throws out this
"alternative" Paris Kentucky to try and the clear up the lies Paul
told about a non existant trip to Paris France. This gives Joey, and
you something to hang on to. Joey claims in his post that the existance
of this alternative, Paris Kentucky somehow vindicates Paul and proves
something special. But when you consider the situation in regards to
logic it becomes absurd. If they really went to Paris Kentucky to study
art and pursue spirtiual ideals, they were truely out of touch. The
spiritual lesson to be learned is that you cannot allow yourself be
blinded by the desire and attachment to a teacher to the point where
you ignore the obvious truth. Art study does not equal Paris Kentucky.
killer
Doug's claim that Kay Dee and Paul went to Paris Kentucky to study art
is weak to say the least. Doug tries to use Paris Kentucky as the
destination of Pauls and Kay Dee's trip to get Paul off the hook for
his lie about going to Paris France. Think about it? If you have any
knowledge of art or art history in 1930 and want to travel to a
location where you can develop your talent and skill where do you go?
Paris Kentucky or Paris France? If the Twitchells decided on Paris
Kentucky as the ideal spot, god help them, Kay Dee is likely to
languish as an a total unknown, with no direction home. What is this
about spitting water?
cher
perfectly plausible... as I've found wonderful artists to study with as
I've travelled this country from one coast to the other. Frankly it
seems to me that you made an automatic leap with the word "Paris". An
automatic process via personal associatons. You associate Paris with
art. <shudder> I associate Paris with women who never shave and rude
people with a fixation for mass murder. Our biases are based on what
we've learned from other sources. I bet you haven't been to Paris
France, right? <smile> Perfectly normal human brain process... but not
reliable in every instance. The subtle unspoken assumption I see here is
one of bias against Kentucky having anything to offer a person in terms
of a higher life. You don't know much about Kentucky bluebloods or horse
people, do you? Seems like a yankee bias to me.
As to Paul's biography, you're speaking in assumed absolutes here again
and the reality is that two writers were working on this biography. I
get the feeling that you have absolutely no experience whatsoever with
working with creative people or in these fields of art or writing. Paul
gave information and stories to Brad, but Brad wrote the book. His name,
his style, his research.
cher
taught in Paris Kentucky at that time? What art associations, leauges or
guilds were there and what were the connections that these groups might
have? Some of the most prolific power in the art world of the U.S. lies
in these various associations, leagues and Guilds. If you're accepted
into a choice guild, league or association... you're sucess is a given.
And these are hidden jewels that are known in the circles of the art
elite! <sigh> Are there well known horse breeders there? Training
facilities? It's also Bourbon Country. That's a lot of money! It's a
straight shot to Paris from Lexington. See.... you make a lot of
assumptions here with very little reseach to offer, insisting instead on
us accepting your assumptions and mechanical associations as logic and
fact.
killer
were lengthy. I have been writing, and performing all my life, and have
many experiences with other creative people. Yes they have horses in
Kentucky. I have relatives in Kentucky, but they have no art history to
speak of. None really. Name one great painting/painter, sculpture or
artist from the 1930's in Kentucky. If you cannot see how silly this
is, you need to step back, go the library and check out a book on the
history of painting, poetry, and theater from 1830 to 1930, and see how
many references there are to Paris Kentucky and then how many there are
to Paris France. Perhaps check out A moveable Feast by Hemmingway, or
look at the life of Picasso a bit. Your brain processes are the ones
that are not reliable. Good lord woman, you are trying to argue the
merits of Paris Kentucky as an art center over Paris France.
killer
Kentucky in 1930 is in fact the art center of choice in the western
world? Name a few artists of note from the 20's or 30's from Paris
Kentucky. Name one who taught Kay Dee.
Paul wanted us all to know about his trip to Paris when his older
sister studied art, and he met Sudar Singh. Well if they went to Paris
Kentucky, it would be appropriate to say so. I venture if you mentioned
art and Paris in a sentance to 100 people on the street, none of them
would come up with Paris Kentucky, except for rmaybe you and Joey.
cher
kentucky over those of paris france, you are! You're the one making this
association and demanding I see it according to that association in your
brain. I have no idea what you would consider "great art" but I have a
clue it's limited to what works for you as you continue to insist that
you're right. <smile>
Secondly, I seriously doubt that you've ever been out of the town you
were born in. But thanks for the laugh all the same, killer. <chuckle> I
can see from your post and argument that you have no experience in the
creative fields either. Nice fantasy. Seems to run current in your
romanticized associations. <smile>
cher
your relatives to find out for you. <sigh> I'm not trying to say that
paris and paris are equal, that would be you. I'm saying that in the
U.S. there are a few cities that serve as art mecca's but by and large
the art elite is made up of guilds, leagues and associations. You blow
that off with "I know all the above"? Apparently you don't have a clue.
There can be one sucessful gallery in a region that spurs tremendous
activity for many years. Look at what happened in Santa Fe! You seem to
have some childish idealism about what fits this story that formed an
image in your mind when you read the biography. I can't argue with
that.. it's your brain cells. All I can do is establish in this
conversation that this is highly plausible from what I personally know
of the art world first hand. Insisting that paris kentucky isn't paris
france is your trip... not mine. I'm saying that in that time and
region, it's plausible that this may have been a highly attractive
option of KayDee and Paul.
cher
miles east of Paris! <smile>
http://www.uky.edu/KentuckyAtlas/ky-paris.html
JoeySays
It's obvious at least the architects over the centuries have found Paris,
Kentucky to be a wonderful place to exhibit their finest. It's not a big
leap to imagine other "art friendly" folks would find this environment
appealing. In fact, it makes a great deal of sense that they would.
Joey
leaf
I told Lisa, my mate, who is an artist and has a degree in art from a
prestigious art institute, and whose father was a well known professor
in humanities in these parts, about this debate, and her involuntary
first response was peels of laughter. She thinks this is hilarious.
Lets see: Twitchell refers to "Paris" as a destination for his sister
who is studying art, knowing full well that Paris, France and art go
together like grapes and wine, and we are asked to believe by Marmon
that he meant Paris, Kentucky? And that is not a deception, no matter
how one looks at it? Lets see: Paris (the only real city ever called
that without any need for further qualification)has for centuries been
associated as the center of arts of all kinds. So Twitchell, knowing
that any reader would think he meant THE Paris, THE world art center,
actually meant, Paris, Kentucky, which even in the US hardly is known
as an art center (try New York, Los Angeles, or several other centers)?
It seems once one starts stretching the truth, it gets easier and
easier. Frankly, I think this sort of stretching of credulity is
becoming a culteral norm in Eckankar, at least with those who follow
these debates to any extent (the hard core followers).
Leaf
cher
Thanks Joey! Actually when Doug raised this possibility, I went on a
quest to discover what this place might be like. To my amazement I
discovered it's pure southern charm at it's best! The land is said to be
the most beautiful in all of Kentucky, rolling hills and bluegrass.
<smile> The huge University just west of Paris is I'm certain a great
influence on the culture of the place. Seemed that this was another of
Doug's amazing insights that most certainly light up when you visit
them. <smile>
cher
Oh I highly doubt you could manage to find a woman who could put up with
your estrogen, kent! <shudder> Of course you guys are waiting to be
impressed with the likes of Caesar on a campaign across Europe.
<chuckle> I went back and read about Paris in Paul's biography, and
oddly enough the account is no where near as confusing as you boys make
it out to be. I guess exaggeration is a way of life for you guys?
Oh... for the record, the people in Paris Kentucky could buy and sell
the lot of you detractors... with spare change. <chuckle>
cher
judgment of Paris Kentucky from a place like Cedar Falls, Iowa? How's
the corn coming along so far? Hmmm?
@aloha.net Rich
"killer" <dvd_...@yahoo.com> wrote
> Joey your post is absurd. Paris Kentucky is not an art Mecca,
Strawman... Who said it was?
> and
> Doug's claim that Kay Dee and Paul went to Paris Kentucky to study art
> is weak to say the least. Doug tries to use Paris Kentucky as the
> destination of Pauls and Kay Dee's trip to get Paul off the hook for
> his lie about going to Paris France.
And you know that was Doug's intention, how?
> Think about it? If you have any
> knowledge of art or art history in 1930 and want to travel to a
> location where you can develop your talent and skill where do you go?
So you are sure that someone that lived in Paducah couldn't have found a
good art teacher in Paris KY?
> Paris Kentucky or Paris France? If the Twitchells decided on Paris
> Kentucky as the ideal spot,
Ideal spot? How about just a nearby place were there was something
better than what was available in Paducah?
> god help them, Kay Dee is likely to
> languish as an a total unknown, with no direction home.
Well there ya go! Using your 'logic', that supports that Kay Dee did
study there. She is a totally unknown artist.
> What is this about spitting water?
?
Along with putting words in others mouths, you are arguing that Paul and
Kay Dee never went to Paris Kentucky? On what evidence do you base that
conclusion?
` o
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_ /____|___\_
(___________/
Rich~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Sailing the CyberSea~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
leaf
Well, I guess its time to settle this issue with you, since you
pubescently keep using the "feminine" label. On the subject of
estrogen: Not to brag, but my sexual hormones are nicely balanced,
thankyou. For the record,, my mate, Lisa, who is quite a catch, has
often commented on my special abilities as well as my particular
physiological dimensions and prowess. Lets just say she is more than
satisfied by me in that respect. I am very comfortably heterosexual. I
have enough masculinity and testicles to do just fine. According to the
women I have known, I am far from any need to worry about any
deficiency in that department. But you go on referring to what you call
my "femininity" for I take it as a complement. If you perceive the Yin
side of my nature, that is a good thing, as I see it. I'm glad you
don't think I come off as an overly-macho jerk. A little balance is
fine, and even healthy and preferred. It is odd, though, that you see
that as an insult.
I have to say, Cher, that it is amazing that I find myself in such a
discussion. The last time I can remember anything resembling your
comments is among adolescent high school kids. What's with your attempt
to smear based on sexuality or sexual preference? It reveals much about
your values, and it suggests that you are homophobic, or even worse, a
bigot. What goes, Cher? Do you have a problem with gays? You know, this
isn't the first time I have witnessed this in Eckankar. Frankly, I
don't see anything wrong with people's sexual choices, so long as there
is no harm done by those choices. Threesomes, foursomes, gay, lesbian,
whatever. Whatever gets people off is fine with me. I've always been
opened minded. Do you think it is an insult to tell a person they are
"feminine" or "masculine"?
>Of course you guys are waiting to be
> impressed with the likes of Caesar on a campaign across Europe.
> <chuckle> I went back and read about Paris in Paul's biography, and
> oddly enough the account is no where near as confusing as you boys
make
> it out to be. I guess exaggeration is a way of life for you guys?
Actually, it is Eckists who have attempted to confuse the issue. I
think it is all rather simple: Twitchell lied about Paris, as he lied
about many, many things. It was a pattern with him. It is now a pattern
with his followers and defenders.
>
> Oh... for the record, the people in Paris Kentucky could buy and sell
> the lot of you detractors... with spare change. <chuckle>
Ahhh, they have money? Well, that settles everything!
Leaf
JoeySays
<<< I told Lisa, my mate, who is an artist and has a degree in art
from a
prestigious art institute, and whose father was a well known professor
in humanities in these parts, about this debate, and her involuntary
first response was peels of laughter. She thinks this is hilarious.
>>>
Well, at least we now know where Kent gets the verification for his
messages and points of fact.
But to tell you the truth, I think Kent is making up the story about a
"mate". If she were really "real", I'm sure she could come here on A.R.E.
and answer a few questions.
<~~~~~~~~Joey wondering if Lisa was "Wilson" in another lifetime
Joey
leaf
cher wrote:
> After thought... how is it you and this supposed female could sit in
> judgment of Paris Kentucky from a place like Cedar Falls, Iowa? How's
> the corn coming along so far? Hmmm?
>
Well, as for Lisa, maybe its because she was born in Germany, traveled
extensively with her family all over Europe from the time she was
three, and eventually came here once her father became a profesor after
he earned his doctoral degree in Humanities. That experienced and
worldly enough for you?
Leaf
leaf
Ha! And you get your facts from Twitchell and some guy named Doug. As
to Lisa, she once dedicated a poem to you all, a long time ago. Maybe
I'll get it from the a.r.e. archives...
Leaf
cher
LOL... I don't see a balance, kent. I see a man who writes like a
hysterical preteen girl. I don't care what you have in your pants....
it's your personality that I'm addressing here. <sigh>
> I have to say, Cher, that it is amazing that I find myself in such a
> discussion. The last time I can remember anything resembling your
> comments is among adolescent high school kids. What's with your attempt
> to smear based on sexuality or sexual preference? It reveals much about
> your values, and it suggests that you are homophobic, or even worse, a
> bigot. What goes, Cher? Do you have a problem with gays? You know, this
> isn't the first time I have witnessed this in Eckankar. Frankly, I
> don't see anything wrong with people's sexual choices, so long as there
> is no harm done by those choices. Threesomes, foursomes, gay, lesbian,
> whatever. Whatever gets people off is fine with me. I've always been
> opened minded. Do you think it is an insult to tell a person they are
> "feminine" or "masculine"?
Leave it to you to figure this is a case of sexual biases. LOL.... I
would've guessed you'd be that dense literally! <grinning> Too subtle
for your great mind, hey? <chuckle> If you need a reference to what I'm
addressing that essay written from the childs viewpoint should pretty
much clear this up for you. It's a great reference piece to your normal
prissy rants on this group. <smile>
> >Of course you guys are waiting to be
> > impressed with the likes of Caesar on a campaign across Europe.
> > <chuckle> I went back and read about Paris in Paul's biography, and
> > oddly enough the account is no where near as confusing as you boys
> make
> > it out to be. I guess exaggeration is a way of life for you guys?
>
> Actually, it is Eckists who have attempted to confuse the issue. I
> think it is all rather simple: Twitchell lied about Paris, as he lied
> about many, many things. It was a pattern with him. It is now a pattern
> with his followers and defenders.
Twithcell didn't write the book, rocket scientist! <sigh> But I've seen
you exaggerate on this newsgroup more than enough to figure you're far
more comfortable with lying than Paul ever was.
> >
> > Oh... for the record, the people in Paris Kentucky could buy and sell
> > the lot of you detractors... with spare change. <chuckle>
>
> Ahhh, they have money? Well, that settles everything!
And culture and education.... All the things you pretend to have.
<smile>
> Leaf
cher
>
> cher wrote:
> > After thought... how is it you and this supposed female could sit in
> > judgment of Paris Kentucky from a place like Cedar Falls, Iowa? How's
> > the corn coming along so far? Hmmm?
> >
>
> Well, as for Lisa, maybe its because she was born in Germany, traveled
> extensively with her family all over Europe from the time she was
> three, and eventually came here once her father became a profesor after
> he earned his doctoral degree in Humanities. That experienced and
> worldly enough for you?
>
> Leaf
She has that much worldly experience and she settles for you? So come
clean, kent... what's wrong with her? Severe depression from being
trapped in the midwest with a loser? Poor thing... what horrible karma!!
cher
leaf
So...you are a bigot. Thanks for answering my question, even if only
indirectly. By the way, if my posts are like a pre-teen girl's (another
bigoted, sexist insult, which is odd, considering you are a women), why
are you getting so rattled again? It is easy to tell when you're
rattled. You start to make longer and longer replies, and you begin to
rage. When you get particularly insultive, such as using some of the
phrasing in this last post, it is obvious you're getting rattled. Ease
up, Cher. Don't have a stroke. It will all be okay. Its only religion
we're discussing, after all... Who cares? Eckankar teaches you to have
amused, condescending detachment, remember? For an example, read Doug's
writing. He is well oiled, that guy...
Leaf
cher
Just pointing out that when you get your panties in a bunch you write
like a preteen girl! And for the record... having been a preteen girl...
it's the worst! LOL.... seriously.
> rattled. You start to make longer and longer replies, and you begin to
> rage. When you get particularly insultive, such as using some of the
> phrasing in this last post, it is obvious you're getting rattled. Ease
> up, Cher. Don't have a stroke. It will all be okay. Its only religion
> we're discussing, after all... Who cares? Eckankar teaches you to have
> amused, condescending detachment, remember? For an example, read Doug's
> writing. He is well oiled, that guy...
>
> Leaf
Well apparently I hit a nerve somewhere with you because you're babbling
incohertently in this post! You truly do live in a fantasy world...
along with your poodle skirt and Barbie dolls. LOL....
Sean
"One of the Primitive Sort": Chester Harding Becomes an Artist in the
Early 19th-Century Countryside
http://historymatters.gmu.edu/search.php?function=print&id=6476
My brother Horace, the chair-maker, was established in Paris, Kentucky. He
wrote to me that he was painting portraits, and that there was a painter in
Lexington who was receiving fifty dollars a head. This price seemed fabulous
to me; but I began to think seriously of trying my fortune in Kentucky. I
soon settled upon the idea, and acted at once.
Winding up my affairs in Pittsburgh, I found that I had just money enough to
take me down the river. I knew a barber, by the name of Jarvis, who was
going to Lexington, and I proposed to join him in the purchase of a large
skiff. He agreed to it; and we fitted it up with a sort of awning or tent,
and embarked, with our wives and children. Sometimes we rowed our craft; but
oftener we let her float as she pleased, while we gave ourselves up to
music. He, as well as I, played the clarionet; and we had much enjoyment on
our voyage. We arrived in Paris with funds rather low, but, as my brother
was well known there, I found no difficulty on that score.
*** Here I began my career as a professional artist. **** I took a room, and
painted the portrait of a very popular young man, and made a decided hit. In
six months from that time, I had painted nearly one hundred portraits at
twenty-five dollars a head. The first twenty-five took rather disturbed the
equanimity of my conscience. It did not seem to me that the portrait was
intrinsically worth that money; now, I know it was not...
----------------------------------------------------------
ART CLASSES IN PARIS KENTUCKY
http://www.parisartworks.com/
Biography of California Artist Davis F. Schwartz Davis Francis Schwartz
(1879-1969) was born in Paris, Kentucky on June 18, 1879. ... In 1924 was
elected artist for the State Board of Harbor Commissioners ...
Classic Equine Portraits by Nancy Milburn Kleck Classic equine portraits on
commission by Paris, Kentucky artist Nancy Milburn Kleck. My technique
emphasizes realism, the soft rendering of form, ...
www.horsetacksupply.com/searchengine/Detailed/113.html
AND
Bourbon County High School Student Selected as Arts Scholar
Nathan Tubbs has been selected from 2800 students in Kentucky to participate
in the Governor's School for the Arts Program. This intensive program allows
students with high aptitude in creativity and performance to learn in an
artistic conservatory setting. Nathan will spend three weeks at
Transylvania University studying and practicing his craft with other
talented students and professionals. His study will focus on his acting
ability but he will also have the opportunity to enrich his academic and
artistic knowledge base in others area.
in the Governor's School for the Arts Program focuses on the areas of
Musical Theatre, Dance, Vocal Music, Instrumental Music, Creative Writing,
Drama, Visual Arts, and Architecture. Students work with professors and
professional in their fields to enhance their talents and learn about other
arts areas as well. With the intensive interview and audition process, it
is an honor to be chosen to participate with 200 other high school juniors
and seniors from Kentucky.
Nathan's natural ability and desire to become a professional actor has been
a blessing to work with over the years. We are very proud of you Nathan
-------------
Olive Holbert Chaffee
Twentieth-century American artist Olive Holbert Chaffee was born in Paducah,
Kentucky and also resided in Missouri and California where she worked as
both a painter and a teacher. During her career, Chaffee earned membership
in the National League of American Pen Women, the National Arts Club, and
the Southern States Art League. Her work received prizes at the 1928 Women`s
National Exposition in St. Louis as well as at the 1933 exhibitions of the
National League of American Pen Women.
----------------
YEP, I WAS BORED.
Peace
SEAN
"cher" <gruen...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:4289213D...@worldnet.att.net...
JoeySays
that Sean just posted in this thread, perhaps you might want to throw your
"catch" Lisa back into the water. It doesn't appear that she's a keeper.
<<<< I told Lisa, my mate, who is an artist and has a degree in art
from a
prestigious art institute, and whose father was a well known professor
in humanities in these parts, about this debate, and her involuntary
first response was peels of laughter. She thinks this is hilarious. >>>
Joey
killer
that David Lane's criticism of the statments made in the book In My
Soul I am Free concerning the trip to Paris are without merit. It is
Joey and Doug who made the claim that Kay Dee and Paul went to Paris,
Kentucky in the 1930's. So it is Joey who tells us the value of this
revelation is that it defeats David Lanes comments that Paul and
Steiger lied about this trip are incorrect. They are incorrect because
the true destination for them ( Doug and Joey) is Paris, Kentucky. In
the acual book there are two important details about the trip, one it
was for Kay Dee and was a reward intended to help her study art. Second
was the claim by Paul that he have met Sudar Singh there, in the flesh,
and it is my recollection that this was phrased to leave the impression
that the city is Paris France. It is Joey and Doug who want us to
accept the idea it is really Paris Kentucky that Paul refers to. I
personally thought he was talking about Paris France.
I read Seans post showing the notables in Paris Kentucky:
Horace the chairmaker, Chester Harding- Portait Painter, Davis
Schwartz, Califonria artist born in Paris but he did his work in Ca.
Nancy the horse painter, and Oliver Chaffer, leading studnet.. That was
about it. If you want pick up Hemmingways book, A Moveable Feast, and
that will remind you who was in Paris France in the 1930's that he
knew. He didn't know every one.But is was a cast of notable's, and he
left out many important artists.
I am not putting words in anyone's mouth. I responded to what Joey
wrote and he seemed to feel no response was given because of the over
whelming authority of the post. Hardly.
killer
Doug
What a fascinating search. Thanks for the connections.
Here are a few things I ran across, all with pictures. Sean you
probably saw these, but I thought Cher might like to see the paintings
from those times:
This is a web page with a painting by a famous artist who died in
Paris, Kentucky after studying in Paris, France. She would have died a
few years before KayDee studied there:
http://www.wku.edu/Library/onlinexh/kwa/hill.html
This page has a short bio on an artist who was named after St. Francis
of Assisi and was born in Paris, Kentucky. Apparently the countryside
there had a strong influence on him. A painting of his recently sold
for $700:
http://www.cuschieris.com/catalogue_sold_2.asp?sold_main_cat=Fine+Art
Here was one of the painters mentioned by Sean below who moved to
Paris, Kentucky and became one of the most famous portrait painters of
the 19th century. All of these links show pictures on the web pages of
these painters:
http://www.askart.com/artist/H/chester_harding.asp?ID=21310
More on the same artist, with a painting of Daniel Boone:
http://www.speedmuseum.org/harding_n.html
And surprise of surprises, it turns out that THE cosmic mystery school
is located in Paris, Kentucky. Yes, THE Cosmic Mystery School. Who
would have known?
http://www.cosmicmysteries.com/
I find all this talk quite funny.
By the way, just to remind everyone, Charlie Wallace was the one who
claimed that KayDee studied in Paris, Kentucky according to the
Twitchell family members he met. David Lane reported this on his web
site.
I ran across the short bio on Paul in the Kentucky Who's Who of 1937 or
so, where they reported that Paul lived in Paris, Kentucky the year
after he graduated high school.
I also ran across the first published time when Paul mentioned that he
visited his sister who was studying art in Paris. It was written in an
article in early 1965, before he started ECKANKAR. No mention of
France, nor even a hint of France. No doubt Brad Steiger read this in
his preparation for writing his bio on Paul. He would have read all of
the articles Paul had written. This sounds like where this story came
from. Brad probably assumed it was France and Paul played along with
it, since he didn't want to go on about his actual home town.
And it all got turned into this huge conspiracy by David Lane as a big
lie.
Life sure is funny. Especially with all the people who get so serious
over this stuff.
Thanks, Sean.
Doug.
leaf
studied art. It is simply that, when Twitchell writes (or his
gostwriter writes in his stead) "Paris" without any further
qualification of the location, and mentions "traveling" there as if its
a long journey, anyone would be lead to assume it is THE Paris. See
that? All I have to write is Paris, and EVERYONE knows I mean Paris in
France, without having to actually spell it out, as if I were speaking
to a moron. So your substituting Paris in Kentucky really only suggests
he was deceiving us. Leaving out that qualifying description (Kentucky)
is, in itself, a deliberate deception. Thats is, of course, assuming
that you are correct that he was speaking of Kentucky and not France,
which we have to take YOUR word for, as if you were at all capable of
neutral objectivity, rather than a completely cultic interpretation.
How could someone write a book which was intended for national or even
international distribution assume ANY reader would have known he
supposedly meant Paris, Kentucky, rather than Paris, France? Right, I
know, there is always a nice, pat, even if completely irrational,
explanation.
Leaf
@aloha.net Rich
"killer" <dvd_...@yahoo.com> wrote
> My post was in response to the one made by Joey.It is Joey who
mentions
> that David Lane's criticism of the statments made in the book In My
> Soul I am Free concerning the trip to Paris are without merit. It is
> Joey and Doug who made the claim that Kay Dee and Paul went to Paris,
> Kentucky in the 1930's. So it is Joey who tells us the value of this
> revelation is that it defeats David Lanes comments that Paul and
> Steiger lied about this trip are incorrect. They are incorrect because
> the true destination for them ( Doug and Joey) is Paris, Kentucky. In
> the acual book there are two important details about the trip, one it
> was for Kay Dee and was a reward intended to help her study art.
Second
> was the claim by Paul that he have met Sudar Singh there, in the
flesh,
> and it is my recollection that this was phrased to leave the
impression
> that the city is Paris France.
Yes, that was my impression too. In fact it was very clear. But as you
know, he didn't live in China Point either. So Paul or Brad changed some
things to make the story a better read, and perhaps to help Paul's
family to not be bothered. Writers do that all the time. Ever read any
of Brad's other books from that time? Same thing. To me it's no big
deal. Other's imagine it's the worst thing in the world.
> It is Joey and Doug who want us to
> accept the idea it is really Paris Kentucky that Paul refers to. I
> personally thought he was talking about Paris France.
It's seems to me to be a very plausible possibility. I don't see that
Doug or Joey are claiming there is any evidence. Yet with that same
evidence(none) you guys want to argue that they didn't go to a nearby
town called Paris? What makes you so sure that someone that lived in
Paducah couldn't have found a good art teacher in Paris KY. Based on
what information? Eckists allow for the possibility while detractors
laugh as if it's a ridiculous possibility. Which of these two stances
is without merit?
> I read Seans post showing the notables in Paris Kentucky:
> Horace the chairmaker, Chester Harding- Portait Painter, Davis
> Schwartz, Califonria artist born in Paris but he did his work in Ca.
> Nancy the horse painter, and Oliver Chaffer, leading studnet.. That
was
> about it. If you want pick up Hemmingways book, A Moveable Feast, and
> that will remind you who was in Paris France in the 1930's that he
> knew. He didn't know every one.But is was a cast of notable's, and he
> left out many important artists.
>
> I am not putting words in anyone's mouth.
I hadn't followed this thread closely so maybe I missed it. Who was it
you where referring to that said that Paris Kentucky is an art Mecca?
Who was it that said that the Twitchell's decided on Paris Kentucky as
the ideal spot?
> I responded to what Joey
> wrote and he seemed to feel no response was given because of the over
> whelming authority of the post. Hardly.
Why didn't you respond to my questions which I had to repeat above?
And on what evidence do your base conclusion about Paul not having gone
to Paris KY?
And more importantly, why do you care so much about this? To me it's
meaningless. It just another in a long list of Lane's conclusions based
on unsupported opinions. Do you guy's not allow literary license in this
case?
@aloha.net Rich
"Doug" <d.ma...@littleknownpubs.com> wrote
> I find all this talk quite funny.
>
> By the way, just to remind everyone, Charlie Wallace was the one who
> claimed that KayDee studied in Paris, Kentucky according to the
> Twitchell family members he met. David Lane reported this on his web
> site.
>
> I ran across the short bio on Paul in the Kentucky Who's Who of 1937
or
> so, where they reported that Paul lived in Paris, Kentucky the year
> after he graduated high school.
>
> I also ran across the first published time when Paul mentioned that he
> visited his sister who was studying art in Paris. It was written in an
> article in early 1965, before he started ECKANKAR. No mention of
> France, nor even a hint of France. No doubt Brad Steiger read this in
> his preparation for writing his bio on Paul. He would have read all of
> the articles Paul had written. This sounds like where this story came
> from. Brad probably assumed it was France and Paul played along with
> it, since he didn't want to go on about his actual home town.
>
> And it all got turned into this huge conspiracy by David Lane as a big
> lie.
>
> Life sure is funny. Especially with all the people who get so serious
> over this stuff.
Oh no Doug! You gave them real facts.<G>
It is serious for some folks that get so wrapped up in mundane
imaginations as if it somehow negates the spiritual path of Eckankar.
The ironic thing is they think it is funny, because they believe their
made up scenarios are true.
@aloha.net Rich
> I find all this talk quite funny.
>
> By the way, just to remind everyone, Charlie Wallace was the one who
> claimed that KayDee studied in Paris, Kentucky according to the
> Twitchell family members he met. David Lane reported this on his web
> site.
>
> I ran across the short bio on Paul in the Kentucky Who's Who of 1937
> or so, where they reported that Paul lived in Paris, Kentucky the
> year after he graduated high school.
>
> I also ran across the first published time when Paul mentioned that he
> visited his sister who was studying art in Paris. It was written in an
> article in early 1965, before he started ECKANKAR. No mention of
> France, nor even a hint of France. No doubt Brad Steiger read this in
> his preparation for writing his bio on Paul. He would have read all of
> the articles Paul had written. This sounds like where this story came
> from. Brad probably assumed it was France and Paul played along with
> it, since he didn't want to go on about his actual home town.
>
> And it all got turned into this huge conspiracy by David Lane as a big
> lie.
>
> Life sure is funny. Especially with all the people who get so serious
> over this stuff.
Are any of you detractors upstanding enough to admit that your witch
hunt on Paul never having gone to Paris KY was baseless? No? It's so
silly.
` o
|
~/|
_/ |\
/ | \
-/ | \
_ /____|___\_
(___________/
Rich~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Sailing the CyberSea~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Rich" <rsmith @aloha.net> wrote in message
news:d6chj...@news2.newsguy.com...
cher
girlfriend! <grinning>
cher
bitterness. <chuckle>
cher
david lane who provided the truth of this event. He's the one who
supposedly talked to Brad about this, and Brad admitted apparently to
having changed Paul's story to make it appear more exciting to the
reader. So the only contention left is why is it that detractors believe
a sucessful art career can only happen in Paris France or New York or
LA? And how can someone that out of touch with reality consider being an
authority on that subject? <shaking her head>
cher
after you read it!
cher
fill of art history <smile> and the so called logic that the answer
could only have been Paris France just left me astonished!
cher
like you leaping to conclusions and not verifying! Paul wasn't the
writer, and Brad wasn't the ghost writer.. in fact at the time the book
was written Brad was more famous than Paul was! Biographies are
notoriously inaccurate... filled with misleading material either placed
there intentionally or there by virture of the writers bias towards his
subject. If you don't believe me, look no further than david lane for a
prime example! <sigh>
The formost word in your post is "assume". Dan used to say "never
assume... it makes an ass of u and me". A good lesson for you to learn
today!
leaf
I would add to this another point: Even if Brad did some of the writing
of "In MY Soul I Am Free," one would assume it was a collaboration
between the two writers. After all, Twitchell had his interests to
promote and protect. Twitchell's name was to be the one that was the
book's author. He assuredely knew of every detail in a book that
featured him as the author. He was responsible for the content.
> Leaf
cher
Nice speculation, kent! Can you prove this? I have had my fill of having
to ass_u_me for the sake of seeing your viewpoint. I have never heard
that Twitchell was the books author. Brad was a well known established
author. He had the final stamp on what went into the book... as the
author. Nowhere is the object of a biography, authorized or unauthorized
seen as the power behind the story. Apparently another field you are
clueless about. <sigh>
leaf
(laughing...) Damn, its been ages since I've even looked at the book.
Brad's name was the author, of course, but Twitchell must have had an
agreement for final proofing it for accuracy, since it was about his
life. That is usually how such arrangements work. That clear it up for
you enough?
cher
Gee.... an admission of being wrong from kent! That's a banner moment!
As to Paul having final say... again you ass_u_me. If Paul wanted
complete and final say, why wouldn't Paul just write an autobiography?
Harold did! Nope... that doesn't hold up. The battles between
biographers are well known. Take a look at the authors who wrote on Ben
Franklin! Which one gave us the unvarished truth? Hmmm?
Sean
Thanks Doug, nice round off there.
So someone who DID study art in Paris France, lived in paris Kentucky. Now I
wonder if she did any teaching and sharing with those who taught Kay Dee.
That would be fairly logical to imagine as happening.
But THE Cosmic Mystery School, sure does take the cake.
Life sure is funny alright. <smile>
Let's not forget that David was only 20 at the time. The followers could do
well to remember he wasn't a respectable and mature Professor then.
and it's ok to make mistakes too.
cheers
"Doug" <d.ma...@littleknownpubs.com> wrote in message
news:1116307973.3...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Sean
Well at least a few factual things for a change.
There is art in Paris kentucky
there are art departments in colleges around paris kentucky that taught art.
and peoplemhave learnt art in and around paris kentucky.
Not as prolific as paris france no doubt, but it is there, and Kay Dee went
there.
and Brad admitted to david lane that he specifically changed names and
places in Paul bio IMSIAF
Brad never said PAUL MADE ME DO IT, I couldnl;t resist his evil lying ways.
It's all so obvious by what is missing as well as what is there.
Oh well.
Cheers
"cher" <gruen...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:4289E807...@worldnet.att.net...
cher
discussing this same issue verbatim years to come, as detractors
continue proselytize based on Lane's book. <shrug> I wonder if there's a
word for double stuck? Hopeless? <smile>
Sean
"killer" <dvd_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1116307682.4...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> My post was in response to the one made by Joey.It is Joey who mentions
> that David Lane's criticism of the statments made in the book In My
> Soul I am Free concerning the trip to Paris are without merit. It is
> Joey and Doug who made the claim that Kay Dee and Paul went to Paris,
> Kentucky in the 1930's. So it is Joey who tells us the value of this
> revelation is that it defeats David Lanes comments that Paul and
> Steiger lied about this trip are incorrect. They are incorrect because
> the true destination for them ( Doug and Joey) is Paris, Kentucky. In
> the acual book there are two important details about the trip, one it
> was for Kay Dee and was a reward intended to help her study art. Second
> was the claim by Paul that he have met Sudar Singh there, in the flesh,
> and it is my recollection that this was phrased to leave the impression
> that the city is Paris France.
Do you have a direct quote book and page number that clearly shows Paul
twitchell sating unequivocally that he "met sudar singh, in paris kentucky,
in the flesh"
I think you'll find it doesn';t exist.
In Brads book he said Paul was "introduced" to Sudar Singh via Kay Dee.
In the 80's I was "introduced" to Paul twitchell and eckankar in australia
via a the book IMSIAF, but Eckankar was still in the USA all the time.
What a difference the semantics of a single word and the assumptions that do
come from that can make. Happens all the time, everyday, and creates a lot
of unnecessary fights and misunderstandings.
It is Joey and Doug who want us to
> accept the idea it is really Paris Kentucky that Paul refers to. I
> personally thought he was talking about Paris France.
>
Don;t feel bad, most people did.
The question is, is what is true given what is known today.
> I read Seans post showing the notables in Paris Kentucky:
> Horace the chairmaker, Chester Harding- Portait Painter, Davis
> Schwartz, Califonria artist born in Paris but he did his work in Ca.
> Nancy the horse painter, and Oliver Chaffer, leading studnet.. That was
> about it. If you want pick up Hemmingways book, A Moveable Feast, and
> that will remind you who was in Paris France in the 1930's that he
> knew. He didn't know every one.But is was a cast of notable's, and he
> left out many important artists.
>
There's no doubt Paris france would have it all over paris kentucky in the
artistic and famous people stakes in the 1930's, and today.
But so what. That;s not the point.
It's important to notice the import of the context. When Paul spoke it was
unfolding the story of how he first came to know of Sudar Singh. Kay Dee and
Paris is simply a part of the backdrop of how that came about. It is not a
critical issue, it wasn;t presented as a hard nosed fact by Eckankar ever
that Kay Dee and Paul went to Paris france, or that Kay Dee was a great
artist. It was only about Sudah Singh, when and where and the progression of
Paul's training.
And that's it. It was David Lanes small mind that turned a simple comment
about Kay Dee & Paris as being some kind manipulation by Paul to make
himself look bigger and a world traveller.
But david did that, not Paul. Paul just told his story. If France is
specifically mentioned by Brad then that was his doing, and his
misunderstanding or his purposefully admitied habit of chnaging names and
places.
doesn't mean anyone was purposely lying about it just because the word
France appears in the text.
I simply suggest have a nother look and include all that is known.
Like read Lane's Chapter One, and the whole story falls in heap once the
factual information researched by Doug and many other along the way is
accepted for what it is.
David Lane got it wrong. That's not a crime, it's just a mistake based upon
limitied information. When new information comes to hand a wise man
re-evalutes all conclusions based upon that information not being there
before.
A wiser man wouldn;t even give such issure the time of day, and would find
better things to do. but that's juts my opinion.
What's important in this for me is how people think and make judgement which
is som much more based on assumptions and and perosnal beliefs vs the hard
facts on the ground.
cheers
Sean
"leaf" <kentad...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1116309305....@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> You still don't get it, Doug. It doesn't matter where you claim kay dee
> studied art. It is simply that, when Twitchell writes (or his
> gostwriter writes in his stead) "Paris" without any further
> qualification of the location, and mentions "traveling" there as if its
> a long journey, anyone would be lead to assume it is THE Paris. See
> that?
Yes you just made an unfounded assumption not based on the facts, or what
was actually written.
Now whether you knew the facts or not the first time you read IMSIAF, there
is NO excuse now to not read what was written with the known facts that have
come out since.
All I have to write is Paris, and EVERYONE knows I mean Paris in
> France, without having to actually spell it out, as if I were speaking
> to a moron.
Not so leaf.
There was famous movie made in Australia called The Cars that Ate Paris.
EVERYONE knows there is more than one Paris, more than one London, and more
than one Springfield.
> So your substituting Paris in Kentucky really only suggests
> he was deceiving us.
ah relax, it's an editing screw up, a mistake, and a misunderstanding that
David blew out into all proportion because so little was known. What chance
would David have to even think of checking if there was a Paris in Kentucky.
He simply didn;t think, and given how it was written i can understand nthe
mistake.
no sweat. But why hold the line that Paul is a liar, when there is no proof
to even suggest he was. a few lines with Paris here and there is hardly the
whole story.
Leaving out that qualifying description (Kentucky)
> is, in itself, a deliberate deception.
Why? that's silly conclusion. What evidence do have that it was "deliberate"
and "deceptive".
I'll admit it's confusing .... and that most if not all who read the lines
would "assume" the same.
But there is NO NEED to assume any more .... the facts are out, Paul was in
paris kentucky with kay Dee. Kay Dee studied art while she was there.
Now read what Brad wrote, keeping in mind he admited that he himself changed
names and places in that book, and that it was common for him to do so.
No lies. no conspiracies. no evidence of real deception by Paul T exists.
Just people's personal opinions.
Thats is, of course, assuming
> that you are correct that he was speaking of Kentucky and not France,
> which we have to take YOUR word for, as if you were at all capable of
> neutral objectivity, rather than a completely cultic interpretation.
> How could someone write a book which was intended for national or even
> international distribution assume ANY reader would have known he
> supposedly meant Paris, Kentucky, rather than Paris, France? Right, I
> know, there is always a nice, pat, even if completely irrational,
> explanation.
>
Actually leaf, I think it's confusing and complex and variable, and still no
one knows anything like the real story of Paul about what happened when and
why.
But the whole thing knowledge in the forefront, and the "story " makes
perfect sense when you know Paul was speaking of Kentucky not France. Read
it all again with that knoiwledge, and it is impossible to read it as
France, and the lying accusation falls away to mist.
IMSIAF was a very short overview as far as biographies go. Look at it for
what it is.
cheers
> Leaf
>
Sean
You can;t assume anything .............. why do you do this so blatantly,
and then condemn people based upon assumptions. This is really silly.
There is info out about since the 80's of how the book came about and the
level of involvement by Paul. I can;lt remember those details fully, but I
recall Paul not having much time for it, but willing to go thru it. brad had
to put up with paul answering qurstions on the phone hurriedly. Not a great
way to fine tune the details. I'm sure brad said somehwere his access was
limitied, he would have liked more.
What does gary say. he was there. He knew Paul. maybe he knows how much they
collaborated and on what topics? <smile>
After all, Twitchell had his interests to
> promote and protect. Twitchell's name was to be the one that was the
> book's author. He assuredely knew of every detail in a book that
> featured him as the author. He was responsible for the content.
>
Yes and no. It depends on the contract arrangement with Brad how
responsibkle he was. Do you have a copy?
cheers
>
>> Leaf
>
killer
Eckankar under Twitchell, Gross, adn Klemp. As I recall it says
authoirzed on the book, and is published by the Eckankar press. The
version I bought years ago, I got from Eckankar directly via the mail.
Sean
and you're complaining because there is some confusion between paris france,
and paris kentucky in a biography.
OK.
@aloha.net Rich
"Sean" <santi...@SPAMyahoo.com> wrote
> Do you have a direct quote book and page number that clearly shows
> Paul twitchell sating unequivocally that he "met sudar singh, in
> paris kentucky, in the flesh"
Hey Sean!
I think confusion lays elsewhere. Most of Paul's books where written
based on a mix of the voluminous amount of books he read, his outer
experiences and a great deal of his inner realizations/experiences. I
recently became more aware that Paul didn't always differentiate between
his inner experiences and his outer ones, as most people do. He just
wrote as it came to him. Obviously the story, the message or lesson he
was trying to convey, was sometimes more important than literal facts.
Therefore it is understandable I and others could be somewhat confused
when reading his books.
One key can be found in understanding Paul. It's not about overlaying
our own SOC on his unique ways. It entails adopting, trying on,
sampling, his state of consciousness. It's a tall order. `
cher
time.