What is Twitchell's Definition of the Mahanta?
Tian Yue
from Letter's To Gail, written for the hardcore member. It was
supposed to be the unvarnished truth, not intended for public
consumption:
"The mahanta, the Living Eck Master, exceeds all the principles,
beliefs, and faith in Adepts and Saviors. He is responsible for all
those who are the faithful within the ECK (sic). At the same time,
He (sic) must overlook and see that those in the churches and
various faiths are also taken care of. He shoulders the worlds
problems and looks at the major disasters, earthquakes, wars
and other problems of mankind as part of His duty to work out
the karmic conditions of the human race. Not only does He
become the upholder and the inspiration to the human race on
earth, but He also takes care of the spiritual affairs of life on
other planets and universes, that of the beings and entities
within the psychic worlds, and those souls fortunate to reach the
higher planes of god. His task is tremendous, and although He
is light-hearted at times and seemingly without thought of world
conditions, He is ever in the Atma Sarup (soul body) watching
and guarding those nearest His heart, and the populations of the
various worlds, planes and universes.
Therefore, we find that the Mahanta is not only the world savior,
but that of the world of worlds, all planets, all psychic planes, and
the spiritual regions. He is the Savior of the Worlds of God. This
is not the physical man as you can see and talk with, but the
spiritual body which is the Atma Sarup (soul body), which is the
spiritual body of all the Worlds of God. In other words, He is the
ECK Itself, and because the ECK is the basis of all life, the
spiritual essence which flows out of the SUGMAD, the Ocean of
Love and Mercy, He is IT (sic). This is the spiritual body which is
in all things and which is the creative function of life. Therefore,
we find the Mahanta in every man, creature, plant and mineral,
as well as in all other forms of life. His physical body is the only
representation of the channel through which the ECK flows. "
Letter to a Chela, by Paul Twitchell
Tian Yue
Gail, but rather, Letters to Chela.
Etznab
>
> - Show quoted text -
To my knowledge the word Mahanta was not mentioned
(written) even once (by Paul Twitchell) in all three versions
of Letters to Gail. Thanks for the correction.
Neither (to my knowledge) was this word written in Key
to Eckankar, Stranger by the River, or The Tiger's Fang. I
could be wrong.
Etznab
Tian Yue
from Letter's To Gail, written for the hardcore member. It was
supposed to be the unvarnished truth, not intended for public
"The Mahanta, the Living ECK Master, exceeds all the principles,
Etznab
>
> - Show quoted text -
Letters to Gail? What volume?
Or, did you mean letter to a Chela?
Etznab
Blah Blah Blah
"Tian Yue" <tia...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1175042143....@n76g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> How grandiose is PT's vision of himself? Read and see. This excerpt if
> from Letter's To Gail, written for the hardcore member. It was
> supposed to be the unvarnished truth, not intended for public
> consumption, because it was too heady.
>
>
> "The Mahanta, the Living ECK Master, exceeds all the principles,
> beliefs, and faith in Adepts and Saviors. He is responsible for all
> those who are the faithful within the ECK (sic). At the same time, He
> (sic) must overlook and see that those in the churches and various
> faiths are also taken care of. He shoulders the worlds problems and
> looks at the major disasters, earthquakes, wars and other problems of
> mankind as part of His duty to work out the karmic conditions of the
> human race.
Sounds like someone who really cares about the world! :-)
Not only does He
> become the upholder and the inspiration to the human race on earth,
> but He also takes care of the spiritual affairs of life on other
> planets and universes, that of the beings and entities within the
> psychic worlds, and those souls fortunate to reach the
> higher planes of god. His task is tremendous, and although He is light-
> hearted at times and seemingly without thought of world conditions, He
> is ever in the Atma Sarup (soul body) watching and guarding those
> nearest His heart, and the populations of the
> various worlds, planes and universes.
>
>
> Therefore, we find that the Mahanta is not only the world savior, but
> that of the world of worlds, all planets, all psychic planes, and the
> spiritual regions. He is the Savior of the Worlds of God. This is not
> the physical man as you can see and talk with,
Oh ok, so in this quote Paul isn't speaking about Paul Twitchell the man, at
all. mmmmm
but the
> spiritual body which is the Atma Sarup (soul body), which is the
> spiritual body of all the Worlds of God. In other words, He is the ECK
> Itself, and because the ECK is the basis of all life, the spiritual
> essence which flows out of the SUGMAD, the Ocean of
> Love and Mercy, He is IT (sic). This is the spiritual body which is in
> all things and which is the creative function of life. Therefore, we
> find the Mahanta in every man, creature, plant and mineral, as well as
> in all other forms of life. His physical body is the only
> representation of the channel through which the ECK flows. "
>
>
> Letter to a Chela, by Paul Twitchell
>
So Paul was saying that the Mahanta is in you too Tianyue, which I suppose
means that again this quote isn't talking about Paul Twitchell the man at
all.
Would you also consider it grandiose IF i was to say that in reality I too
am nothing but the ECK, or Spirit?
Or only if I wrote that in a book, and then went on Oprah and declared
myself publicly as a channel for Spirit? Do you consider yourself a channel
for good, or spirit or love in the world Tianyue [ even if not perfect or
infallible] ?
Your's Mr. Blah
wernertrp
Vote for the Mahanta - vote for Perry Rhodan !
cher
where attacks are concerned. He cut and pasted something from one of
the detractor sites and got it confused in his milky little brain
while trying to post something provocative. What else is new!!
<grinning> It's difficult to watch this sort of constant vigilant
reinforcement of beliefs from detractors on a daily basis..... the
only real form of brain washing known to mankind. <grinning>
> Etznab- Hide quoted text -
Tian Yue
> You'll have to forgive kent, cause his hatred kind of negates accuracy
> where attacks are concerned. He cut and pasted something from one of
> the detractor sites and got it confused in his milky little brain
> while trying to post something provocative. What else is new!!
> <grinning> It's difficult to watch this sort of constant vigilant
> reinforcement of beliefs from detractors on a daily basis..... the
> only real form of brain washing known to mankind. <grinning>
This statement you've made, "He cut and pasted something from one of
the detractor sites and got it confused in his milky little brain
while trying to post something provocative" is a rather peculiar
assumption. Odd that you would guess at my source, and phrase your
guess as if it were fact. This stating a guess as if it were fact is a
bod habit indulged in by so many eckists on this site. It reveals an
arrogant disdain for facts and honesty when it comes to such negative
comments about eckankar critics.
Its as if you have license to make up whatever you want, as if facts
and accuracy are concepts that don't apply to you, in your presumed
elite status. You're above the need to treat critics fairly and
honestly. Critics are seen as sub-human, maybe 3/5's of a man,
undeserving of common respect and dignity.
The real source of the quote is from the Letters to a Chela discourses
that are still in my possession from the days when it was hot off the
press from eckankar. I have the first, original discourses in the old
form sent out month by month from eckankar. As I recall, they were
still being written as I received them. This was during my first year
in eckankar.
Tian Yue
> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
Tian Yue
> "Tian Yue" <tia...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:1175042143....@n76g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> > How grandiose is PT's vision of himself? Read and see. This excerpt if
> > from Letter's To Gail, written for the hardcore member. It was
> > supposed to be the unvarnished truth, not intended for public
> > consumption, because it was too heady.
> >
> >
> > "The Mahanta, the Living ECK Master, exceeds all the principles,
> > beliefs, and faith in Adepts and Saviors. He is responsible for all
> > those who are the faithful within the ECK (sic). At the same time, He
> > (sic) must overlook and see that those in the churches and various
> > faiths are also taken care of. He shoulders the worlds problems and
> > looks at the major disasters, earthquakes, wars and other problems of
> > mankind as part of His duty to work out the karmic conditions of the
> > human race.
>
> Sounds like someone who really cares about the world! :-)
Sounds like a guy who's pulled the wool over th head of many.
> Not only does He
> > become the upholder and the inspiration to the human race on earth,
> > but He also takes care of the spiritual affairs of life on other
> > planets and universes, that of the beings and entities within the
> > psychic worlds, and those souls fortunate to reach the
> > higher planes of god. His task is tremendous, and although He is light-
> > hearted at times and seemingly without thought of world conditions, He
> > is ever in the Atma Sarup (soul body) watching and guarding those
> > nearest His heart, and the populations of the
> > various worlds, planes and universes.
> >
> >
> > Therefore, we find that the Mahanta is not only the world savior, but
> > that of the world of worlds, all planets, all psychic planes, and the
> > spiritual regions. He is the Savior of the Worlds of God. This is not
> > the physical man as you can see and talk with,
>
> Oh ok, so in this quote Paul isn't speaking about Paul Twitchell the man, at
> all. mmmmm
PT referred to the Mahanta, the LIVING Eck Master in this quote (read
the entire quote again). Notice the word "living." That means someone
in a human body in PT's terminology. And that, my friend, means he was
referring to himself.
"The Mahanta, the Living ECK Master, exceeds all the principles,
beliefs, and faith in Adepts and Saviors. He is responsible for all
those who are the faithful within the ECK (sic). At the same time, He
(sic) must overlook and see that those in the churches and various
faiths are also taken care of. He shoulders the worlds problems and
looks at the major disasters, earthquakes, wars and other problems of
mankind as part of His duty to work out the karmic conditions of the
human race."
>
> but the
> > spiritual body which is the Atma Sarup (soul body), which is the
> > spiritual body of all the Worlds of God. In other words, He is the ECK
> > Itself, and because the ECK is the basis of all life, the spiritual
> > essence which flows out of the SUGMAD, the Ocean of
> > Love and Mercy, He is IT (sic). This is the spiritual body which is in
> > all things and which is the creative function of life. Therefore, we
> > find the Mahanta in every man, creature, plant and mineral, as well as
> > in all other forms of life. His physical body is the only
> > representation of the channel through which the ECK flows. "
> >
> >
> > Letter to a Chela, by Paul Twitchell
> >
>
> So Paul was saying that the Mahanta is in you too Tianyue, which I suppose
> means that again this quote isn't talking about Paul Twitchell the man at
> all.
>
Yes, PT seems to think his spiritual body is in me. Disgusting. The
real truth is, he isn't the Mahanta, and any spiritual essence in me
is impersonal and unowned, unclaimed except by myself. I kicked out
any intruders long ago (heh, heh).
>
> Would you also consider it grandiose IF i was to say that in reality I too
> am nothing but the ECK, or Spirit?
>
Read PT's quote. He wasn't merely claiming to be a part of spirit, he
was claiming to be a God of all earthquakes and world events,
inclduing that of aliens. Read the quote with your eyes open.
"The Mahanta, the Living ECK Master, exceeds all the principles,
beliefs, and faith in Adepts and Saviors. He is responsible for all
those who are the faithful within the ECK (sic). At the same time, He
(sic) must overlook and see that those in the churches and various
faiths are also taken care of. He shoulders the worlds problems and
looks at the major disasters, earthquakes, wars and other problems of
mankind as part of His duty to work out the karmic conditions of the
human race."
> Or only if I wrote that in a book, and then went on Oprah and declared
> myself publicly as a channel for Spirit? Do you consider yourself a channel
> for good, or spirit or love in the world Tianyue [ even if not perfect or
> infallible] ?
Read the quote. PT was claiming to be far more than what every massage
therapist claims. He claimed (to repeat what you can reread on this
very thread) to be the master of all planets, all people everywhere,
responsible for earthquakes, world events, overseeing all religions
and saviors, etc. If you claimed that about yourself on Oprah, well,
you wouldn't get the chance. She'd not let you on the show. When was
the last time Klemp was on Oprah?
Tian Yue
"The Mahanta, the Living ECK Master, exceeds all the principles,
beliefs, and faith in Adepts and Saviors. He is responsible for all
those who are the faithful within the ECK (sic). At the same time, He
(sic) must overlook and see that those in the churches and various
faiths are also taken care of. He shoulders the worlds problems and
looks at the major disasters, earthquakes, wars and other problems of
mankind as part of His duty to work out the karmic conditions of the
human race."
>
cher
> On Mar 28, 11:48 am, "cher" <Gruendem...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > You'll have to forgive kent, cause his hatred kind of negates accuracy
> > where attacks are concerned. He cut and pasted something from one of
> > the detractor sites and got it confused in his milky little brain
> > while trying to post something provocative. What else is new!!
> > <grinning> It's difficult to watch this sort of constant vigilant
> > reinforcement of beliefs from detractors on a daily basis..... the
> > only real form of brain washing known to mankind. <grinning>
>
> This statement you've made, "He cut and pasted something from one of
> the detractor sites and got it confused in his milky little brain
> while trying to post something provocative" is a rather peculiar
> assumption. Odd that you would guess at my source, and phrase your
> guess as if it were fact. This stating a guess as if it were fact is a
> bod habit indulged in by so many eckists on this site. It reveals an
> arrogant disdain for facts and honesty when it comes to such negative
> comments about eckankar critics.
Well, unfortunately for you... I don't imagine you physically so
seldom have "bod" habits where you're concerned, kent! <giggle> I said
what I did, because truth be known, you just cut and pasted the piece
from sharon's dejavue site where she plagiarised Paul's book! Everyone
here knows it, but you need to do this peacock dance of vanity to try
elevate even your mistakes at someone elses expense. <shrug> Good
thing you left Eckankar.... cause you're really a problem child, big
time! <smile>
>
> Its as if you have license to make up whatever you want, as if facts
> and accuracy are concepts that don't apply to you, in your presumed
> elite status. You're above the need to treat critics fairly and
> honestly. Critics are seen as sub-human, maybe 3/5's of a man,
> undeserving of common respect and dignity.
Aha.... yeah, this is all about "my elite status", right.... sure!
<lol> Okay folks... notice how gracefully kent deals with a typo in
real life! Take a look at how OVERBOARD he goes with the attack on
anyone who recognizes his fopah! Poor pitiful baby has never been
capable of dealing such things! Odd how this same characteristic is
common in serial killers. Wonder what that means! <grinning and
whipping away the tears>
> The real source of the quote is from the Letters to a Chela discourses
> that are still in my possession from the days when it was hot off the
> press from eckankar. I have the first, original discourses in the old
> form sent out month by month from eckankar. As I recall, they were
> still being written as I received them. This was during my first year
> in eckankar.
LOL... and it's also easy for kent to cut and paste the pages from
sharon's hate site, where she plagiarized Paul's book! Funny how kent
can't even admit he can stoop to something so common as cut and paste,
because it's beneath him! Narcissists, gotta love 'um or else!!!!
Blah Blah Blah
Yes BUT, you are taking one aspect ie the LEM and applying it across the
board of the whole quote and maybe missing the obvious here ... which is
what I am referring in the paragraph above ... i'll repeat what to me the
key point about that paragraph and what is being said ::
++++++ This is NOT the physical man as you can see and talk with,
++++++++++ my caps 4 emphasis
as was said elsewhere recently on a.r.e. post the sufis also referred to
this "pole of the world" and again they were not [imho] referring to a
specific person, although sometimes a person was a primary channell for this
"pole of the world concept"
Now, this is my take .... people are FREE to make up their own minds about
this pole of the world / Mahanta concept, and I am not about to waste my
time to prove it's true or not. each to their own, and from what i gather
many ususally just get bogged down in the semantics & religiosity of it all
rather than considering what it "might be" if such a thing is at all
possible.
The second part is, imho, is that the question for individuals is IF they
can accpet there is this pole of the world / Mahanta concept existing
thruough out time which pops up from time to time in writings and ideas,
then IS it true or not that the LEM is in truth a clear channel for this
Mahanta consciousness that from what I gather is the most pure flow of the
ECK from the SUGMAD.
also I use the terms as used in Eckanakar for sake of semantics and a common
ground to discuss it.
Clearly you come accross as rejecting both the concept of the "pole of the
world" and the eckankar idea of the the" Mahanta" and the "mahanta the LEM",
and that's totally fine by me. It's really isn't something worth arguing
about, these things are personal and everyone has the freedom to choose what
they believe.
I also accept without a shadow of a doubt, that many if not 99.9% people who
come into Eckankar blindly believe and accept the "Mahanta concept" and
happily lay it at the feet of the current LEM without really knowing for
sure with total proof and without a doubt whether it is true or not.
An inner experience isn't necessarily proving what we "think" it is proving.
Then there are others especially long term HI's and even some newbies who
appear to know what they are talking about from their own personal
experiences and testing of the teachings ... iow they speak from a place of
complete conviction as opposed to just accepting something written in a
book, or believeing the idea because it sounds good and so so special.
Here's the cruncher, EVERYONE is different, everyone is at a different
place, two people can say the exact same words but one is based upon pure
blind belief that they think they know it's true, and then there are those
who may actually really really really know.
My opinion is that some people never really prove it to themselves or are
even capable of doing so, yet will swear black and blue the "concept" is
100% a reality, and that the current LEM actually holds that "title".
Well I have my own ideas and opinions about all of that, and in a nutshell I
can honestly say I do not really know for sure to my total and complete
satisfaction, where I could speak as an authority on such matters, really I
just ain't that clued up. and am not qualified to make such judgements from
personal experience.
What I am saying here is that just the fact that someone may totally accept
they see the LEM in the inner expereinces doesn't necessarily spin out to be
a an actual proof that the notion of the "pole of the world/Mahanta" is also
proven by such expereinces. It depends on EACH indiviual and the expereinces
they have.
OBVIOUSLY people who do not find the inner proof satisfactory [ or don't
even try to find out ] will reject the entire concept, and state so clearly.
OK, what else could we expect? Someone else will have an experience and tell
the whole world that that proved that the Mahanta was real when really they
are actually talking thru their hat and don't have a clue at all ....... but
that's OK TOO it is ALL ok, each to their own whether they are in or out of
Eckankar everyone is on their own journey, and they are ALL valid for THEM.
imho, as I speak for no one but myself here, and not looking for an
argument either.
One last point, whether the concept of the Mahanta the living eck master is
accepted or rejected by a person, has no bearing on the validity of other
aspects of the teaching. imho Soul Travel IS in fact a natural god given
gift that anyone can do, I could do it consciously and activate OBE almost
at will before I was 10, [ and sure I didn't understand it, what, or why,
but I knew how and I did several forms of soul travel not dreams , but real
soul travel,] so for me this isn't no eckankar only skill, all they have
done is trademark the semantic term of Soul Travel for communication and
clarity purposes ] So imho anyone could benefit from learnong about soul
travel, and dream interpretations and many many other things taught thru the
eckankar path without necessarily joining ........ there is room for
everyone to get something from the teachings, unfortunately those within it,
and also those outside of it seem to have this over whelming urge to
sometimes to NOT allow each individual take their OWN time in exploring it
at their own pace, and in their own way. Not everyone who comes across the
teachings is destined to achieve the lofty heights of an 8th and above, and
I think it;s about time that that was acknowledged openly , we all have our
limitiations.
for example, not long ago what I heard said at public seminar was that "If
you are not here to find and achieve god realization in this life right now,
then what are you doing here [ in eckankar ] at all?"
That sort of statement [ if it was said as I heard it by a very high HI ]
confuses me. Eckankar was always presented as an individual path since day
one ......... both Eckists and non-eckists alike seem to miss this regularly
and jump to labelling others or the purposes of the teachings as fixed
generalities in a way that is not helpful to themselves doing the labelling,
to eckankar as path, and those genuine people who are seeking to find the
truth about life, love and happiness. imho at this point in time.
Another comment that confused me was by another high HI, who publicly said
at the same seminar [ or this is what I heard him say, he may not have, i
could have misunderstood ] words the efffect that "the LEM is God, the
Godman, God on Earth." and was very emphatic about it. He didn't say the
Mahanta Consciousness, he was referring as far as I could tell to the
physical presence of the LEM himself personally.
Well maybe this HI knows somethings I do not know, not he does, but when I
read the Shariyat I see repeatedly it saying nothing of a kind, at least not
as narrowly defined as I heard this chap say. But it isn't my problem, I'm
not concerned, I just don't understand such statements being tossed around
at public talks where it can be so easily misunderstood as the Christians
saying Jesus IS God, period. No gray areas, no subtlties, no other way is
acceptable to view it.
On top of that I have heard Harold live at a talk [ or recall such ] say
point blank he is not God. So what gives when HI's travel around the world
like Ford Johnson used to do, and say such things in such a way. No wonder
people hear warning bells and whistles going off when they hear or read such
things as this chap did.
Personally I can't agree with him at all, but maybe he meant something
entirely different than the way I took, and yes I am taking him kliterally
because he seemed to to add and emphasise that that was exactly how it meant
it, literally. Well, I find it very odd, and simply can't accept what i
heard him say.
Therefore I just get on with my life, and leave it be. If he is right one
day I will work it out, and if he is wrong, then one day he will work it
out. Who knows , and i'm not concerned about it, nor do I see it as a
negative reflection on the teachings per se, he's just one HI after all.
They are not infallible either.
If there's anything that pisses me off about a repeating habit amongst
Eckists [ and I have done this too ] is they just don't let people be and
accept them where they are at in their journey and demand they "see it" the
exaxct same way as they do, and if not, then you are on the outer and
obviously not only a test but also an plant by the Kal or someother such
crap. ...... there's always more to these things than just that, it's not a
complaint but an observation of human nature, it's something I tolerate as
best I can, and accept that's the way it is, but I hold to my own opinions
about this untill shown otherwise.
This more than anything has pushed people away and isolated ...............
blah blah blah, but that's life, stuff happens, there's always a reason,
uncovering what that is for the indiviual is a human challenge, some worry
about these things way too much, and others never bother to even try to
understand ..... I really do believe and accept now that everyone is exactly
where they are supposed to be, nothing could be any other way than it is
right NOW. That's why my dear Tian yue that I say "i don't care" about so
many things now, not that I'm not a caring person but I just don't care
anymore about things and people that are not my responsibilty, not my fault,
not my karma and none of my business.
Like I have come to accept that that their are very talented people around
the world working to resolve problems like global warming that may or may
not need resolving, all is in good hands usually far more knowledgeable than
me in their area of expertise, and me complaining about it, or thinking
things shouldn;t be like this or that won't change a thing. I am not
qualified , it's not why I am here. If I was meant to be the US president
and do things differently than the current one does things then I would be
in his shoes, and he would be in mine. Truth is, it is what it is ..... not
my problem, now I only focus on what is within my circle of influence,
that's myself, people I bump into , and my own children that I brought into
this crazy mixed up and confusing world of people. <smile>
anyway, have a good day and enjoy yourself doing what you do best, and if
that's stirring the pot on a.r.e. then keep stirring to your hearts content.
Do what you desire, and be happy doing it. Doesn't bother me at all, and
that's a great relief for me these days I can tell you! :-)
take care Kent
Tian Yue
them. I was a member of eckankar for more years than most who write on
this forum, I was well read in eckankar, I came in under PT, and I
learned under such folks as Patti Simson, Millie Moore, Helen Baird,
Archie Hurst, etc.etc. I've read most books by PT many, many times
over. I know what eckankar teaches. And I know there are people who
misunderstand what eckankar teaches. I'm not one of them.
As to the Mahanta, people are confused about what Mahanta means
because there are inconsistent remarks about the Mahanta. One must
look at the over all messege from PT to get a clear sense. One thing
that is consistent is the Mahanta always is associated with Eck
Masters (rather than popes, dalai lamas, or yogic gurus), and eck
masters are even termed to be the Mahanta, the Living Eck Master. Paul
called himself the Mahanta. So the point that the mahanta is separate
from the living eck master is, for all intents and purposes, usually
not true in actual practice. Klemp is introduced as the Mahanta at
seminars. If Klemp isn't the Mahanta, why call him that? So, in
everyday practice, Masters are often seen as synonymous with the
Mahanta. It is also said that masters are vehicles for the Mahanta
Consciousness. Both are stated in eckankar, both seem to be eckankar
doctrine. Take your pick. There are many such inconsistancies. This
way, eckankar has its cake and eats it too. The definitions are not
precise. But clearly, PT wanted people to think Eck Masters were the
principle and only channels for that high state, and that they
embodied that high state. The 14th initiation is the Mahanta Maharai.
So, I think we're splitting hairs with these differences. In practice,
Mahanta's like PT and HK are defined as Mahantas, are considered to be
in that state, and are also considered to be vehicles or channels for
that state. And such masters are considered to have exclusively
achieved that state. People outside of eckankar don't get to be part
of that exclusive club. So the hair splitting doesn't amount to any
real difference. That's why PT sometimes spoke of being a channel for
the Mahanta, and at other times spoke of being the Mahanta. Welcome to
eckankar.
Tian Yue
On Mar 29, 6:13 pm, "Blah Blah Blah" <huca...@blah.com> wrote:
> "Tian Yue" <tian...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>
> news:1175150138.5...@y80g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>
> > Blah Blah Blah wrote:
> >> "Tian Yue" <tian...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
cher
> My comments are directed to PT's views, as he wrote them and defined
> them. I was a member of eckankar for more years than most who write on
> this forum, I was well read in eckankar, I came in under PT, and I
> learned under such folks as Patti Simson, Millie Moore, Helen Baird,
> Archie Hurst, etc.etc. I've read most books by PT many, many times
> over. I know what eckankar teaches. And I know there are people who
> misunderstand what eckankar teaches. I'm not one of them.
>
LOL.... and that makes you a better ECKist than most ECKists in your
eyes? <chuckle> Yeah, kent... you've established this as your premise
long ago! It's your delusion, and you're sticking to it regardless of
how many years you've been away from the teachings! In fact, you're so
deluded by this belief that you can't accept any change that has taken
place since you left the path so very long ago! <shrug> Go ahead, drop
names as if this is supposed to impress people, cause the fact is your
record of understanding the teachings is present on this newsgroup
daily. That proves more than all your egotistical dances of self
aggrandizing you display!
Wow.... you're wrong and don't even know it! All that reading you did,
and all those people you mention in order to impress us.... just
imagine all those people actually knew how little you really did know
about Eckankar, even back when you were a member! <smiling> I bet many
of them just smiled behind your back and shook their heads. <wink>
What happens if a person takes all the spiritual teachers and puts
them into one huge group of authority figures? Well, for people who
can't abide by authority figures, it generally means they end up
athiests! And for others? All the cultural dross of the individual
religions starts to build up tensions and the pettiness of mankind
takes over! Yep.... Doesn't matter if the spiritual beings themselves
understand what's going on, the need of mankind to micromanage what
they don't understand turns into hate. Instead of building bridges,
you end up with the clash of the titans. Remember the lessons of Rome?
Christianity is still trying to recover from embracing pagan rituals
into their practice. It's a grand secular fantasy to encompass all
religions by uniting all spiritual beings under one tent! But then
what do the seculars know of religions?
And still you summarily dismiss the spiritual experiences that were
shared with you here! Now take that blindness to a higher scale of
human nature and see where the holes in your grand illusion are!
<wink>
> ...
>
> read more ยป- Hide quoted text -
Tian Yue
posts compelling enough to respond to, most of the time. And your
posts are extemely negative. We all have fun here, and we debate, but
yours are generally just not well organized or coherant enough to
warrant a response.
Tian Yue
cher
Doesn't change the reality or the truth I posted in the least! But
hey, cowardly approaches are approaches all the same.
Tian Yue
> <chuckle> If that's what it takes to soothe your ego, then so be it!
> Doesn't change the reality or the truth I posted in the least! But
> hey, cowardly approaches are approaches all the same.
>
Ouch! The mosquitos are biting. Yet, there is nothing so perfect as
receiving confirmation of my statements by the very person I'd
referred to. Thanks....
I'd previously written:
Tian Yue
Tian Yue
from It as when they supported me [sic]. It's all the same thing,
don't you see - for or against - they're still using my power. They
use...they will not settle for what they'd have left without using me,
whichever way it is done."
-Patti Simpson (Marman's web site)
Here Patti confirms what I've been referring to: She quotes the inner
PT referring to himself, personally, as being the eck, asserting that
the very energy that a critic would use is his power. This is
astoundingly delusional. No one owns the universal qi, or prana, or
what some call life force, etc.
Tian Yue
Tian Yue
> "Those who fight the ECK are drawing the same power and recognition
> from It as when they supported me [sic]. It's all the same thing,
> don't you see - for or against - they're still using my power. They
> use...they will not settle for what they'd have left without using me,
> whichever way it is done."
>
> -Patti Simpson (Marman's web site)
>
> Here Patti confirms what I've been referring to: She quotes the inner
> PT referring to himself, personally, as being the eck, asserting that
> the very energy that a critic would use is his power. This is
> astoundingly delusional. No one owns the universal qi, or prana, or
> what some call life force, etc.
>
> Tian Yue
By the way, when I wrote previously (see above) that it is delusional
to think one can own the life-essence, I was referring, in this case,
to Patti herself, in what she believed PT to be. It reflects what
eckists think the Mahanta is. I don't believe she was actually hearing
PT speak to her. I think she was listening to her own subconscious
reverberations.
Tian Yue
Tian Yue
denied it. Now to be clear, I have my own copy of the original
Letter's to a Chela. (And also, by the way, what is wrong with cutting
and pasting from another website?)
In any case, I have a little test for you. What, exactly, is on the
cover of the original Letters to a Chela discourse? What color, if
any, is the cover? I know the answer, since I have it in my home. And
what was the first date of copyright?
Now, if you know the answer (because maybe another eckist will e-mail
you and tell you--I know this was long before you became a member, and
it was since republished in a different format) maybe come up with
your own question--about any page in the original-not what may be on
sharon's web site, and I'll be able to give you the answer.
Tian Yue
Sharon
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 28, 11:48 am, "cher" <Gruendem...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > You'll have to forgive kent, cause his hatred kind of negates accuracy
> > > where attacks are concerned. He cut and pasted something from one of
> > > the detractor sites and got it confused in his milky little brain
> > > while trying to post something provocative. What else is new!!
> > > <grinning> It's difficult to watch this sort of constant vigilant
> > > reinforcement of beliefs from detractors on a daily basis..... the
> > > only real form of brain washing known to mankind. <grinning>
>
> > This statement you've made, "He cut and pasted something from one of
> > the detractor sites and got it confused in his milky little brain
> > while trying to post something provocative" is a rather peculiar
> > assumption. Odd that you would guess at my source, and phrase your
> > guess as if it were fact. This stating a guess as if it were fact is a
> > bod habit indulged in by so many eckists on this site. It reveals an
> > arrogant disdain for facts and honesty when it comes to such negative
> > comments about eckankar critics.
>
> Well, unfortunately for you... I don't imagine you physically so
> seldom have "bod" habits where you're concerned, kent! <giggle> I said
> what I did, because truth be known, you just cut and pasted the piece
> here knows it, but you need to do this peacock dance of vanity to try
> elevate even your mistakes at someone elses expense. <shrug> Good
> thing you left Eckankar.... cause you're really a problem child, big
> time! <smile>
>
Hey, Grundie!! It's been awhile....I see you're still the same
vicious-but-not-that-bright-eckcunt you've always been! So, didja
get your 5th yet? You're *such* a shining example of spirichul
enlightenment and eckluuuuv, a fine role model for newbie cult
members!!
I think you're referring to my "Delphiforums" site, not "dejavue" -
which as far as I know, doesn't exist. But thanks for the reminder,
haven't checked my links for a long time to make sure they're all
still working - yep, " Eckankar: Truth About A Cult" with the
Twitchster's secrud members-only "Letters to a Chela" discourses is
still located at: http://forums.delphiforums.com/eckankartruth
And there are more interesting links at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eckankartruth/links
Check your definitions, Grundie. Plagiarism is when someone copies a
whole bunch of stuff from books they got at the library, and publishes
and sells them under his own name without mentioning or giving credit
to the source.
Hmmm....I'm wondering, is it still plagiarism if Twitch was just
taking dictation from Rebizarre? <snicker>
Anyway, I credited my source. Except I don't remember if I specified
that I used the book version of "Letters to a Chela" - it's still in a
box, so I don't remember exactly when it was published....90's,
maybe? After they pulled it out of the monthly discourse series and
then put it in a book and spread the word that it was going out of
print soon, so that anyone who perchance didn't have it would buy
it?
When I posted "Letters to a Chela", I didn't have the originals, which
I have now. Gawd, those poorly typed & copied old discourses were a
hoot!
And I also commented more than enough to cover my ass with the Fair
Use laws.
>
>
> > Its as if you have license to make up whatever you want, as if facts
> > and accuracy are concepts that don't apply to you, in your presumed
> > elite status. You're above the need to treat critics fairly and
> > honestly. Critics are seen as sub-human, maybe 3/5's of a man,
> > undeserving of common respect and dignity.
>
<giggle> Grundie's just being a good widdle vahana, following
orders. But this reminds me of some of my favorite eckquotes:
"Those who are without the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master, are pagans,
little better than those life forms just below that of man." PT, SKS
II, page 173
" . . . each of those who are ECKists must come to the realization
that they each, belong to the chosen race of the superior being. All
others are aliens, that is those who have not yet voluntarily taken up
the path of ECK. These aliens, as we speak of them, are, in a way,
heathens or pagans who have not yet found truth. They are the agents
of the Kal, and the enemy of those who are the followers of ECK." PT,
IWL, pg. 168
Geez, I haven't checked out my "Angelfire" site for a long time, glad
to see it's still there at:
http://www.angelfire.com/hi2/eckankarsurvivors
Lots of great stuff there! Geez, it's been so long, I've forgotten
*so* much!! Even though I've got plenty of ekultquotes at my
various websites, there are still so many of them buried in the
archives here! Well, one of these days I *will* get a more
comprehensive & organized one put together.
Damn, I used to write some great stuff!! Hmmm...maybe I should go
back to '98 and just start reposting, which might also make it easier
for people to find me if they're looking for something, since I've
posted with several different email addresses, but I'd say 99% of the
time I signed my posts with "Sharon".
> Aha.... yeah, this is all about "my elite status", right.... sure!
> <lol> Okay folks... notice how gracefully kent deals with a typo in
> real life! Take a look at how OVERBOARD he goes with the attack on
> anyone who recognizes his fopah! Poor pitiful baby has never been
> capable of dealing such things! Odd how this same characteristic is
> common in serial killers. Wonder what that means! <grinning and
> whipping away the tears>
>
It's "faux pas", Grundie, not "fopah".
Hey, I haven't paid attention for a long time - how's your breathing?
I remember you used to <sigh> a lot.
But that reminds me....a long time ago, that scumbag Michael Wallace's
"Bee" wrote "wah-la" or something similar; she meant "Voila".
I flunked French *and* Spanish but did pick up a few things along the
way.
> > The real source of the quote is from the Letters to a Chela discourses
> > that are still in my possession from the days when it was hot off the
> > press from eckankar. I have the first, original discourses in the old
> > form sent out month by month from eckankar. As I recall, they were
> > still being written as I received them. This was during my first year
> > in eckankar.
>
> LOL... and it's also easy for kent to cut and paste the pages from
> sharon's hate site, where she plagiarized Paul's book! Funny how kent
> can't even admit he can stoop to something so common as cut and paste,
> because it's beneath him! Narcissists, gotta love 'um or else!!!!
>
Once again, Grundulla, check your definitions.
By the way, I'd say my websites are more accurately described as
LOATHING sites. "Hate" is a bit insipid and doesn't really express my
feelings. Maybe REVULSION works, too. My thesaurus is still in a
box somewhere.
Anyway, I'm in the mood for some copying and pasting - BTW, Grundie,
you can't *cut* and paste from a website. Yeah, ya gotta love them
thar narcissists!!! Here's an example of a big narcissist's
"teachings":
"The ECK enters into the womb of a virgin, the queen of heaven, who
has submitted to the true spirit of the universe. The consciousness
of the Mahanta state (the spiritual form of the human Eckankar leader)
is planted as the seed, and carefully nurtured in the womb. When the
embodiment of flesh is brought into this world, a man-child is born.
It starts its unfoldment over a period of years until the state of
perfection is reached, in adulthood. Then the chosen one learns that
he is the Living ECK Master of his times." SKS 1, pg. 111-112, 2nd
ed., 10th printing, 1987
Gee...this brings back memories!! Now, Grundie, I remember your
personal favorite way of dealing with those embarrassing ekultquotes
was by <snipping>, like sticking your ostrich-head in the sand as if
those quotes didn't exist. Anyway, the reason for the page & edition
info above was because eckthugs were claiming some of those quotes
didn't exist...was that you, too? So, another former cult member &
I spent a lot of time going back over a lot of the quotes and adding
more info.
By the way, Grundie, are you still defending internet pervs? People
like Jerry Mulvin, former HI, who was only downloading kiddie porn?
Still writing to probation officers to get pervs taken off internet
perv sites where people might be able to find out about them and
protect their children? I really wish all the victims of child-
molesting "High Initiates" would have the guts to speak out about
it. Pretty disgusting, even when one of your HIs is convicted and
serves time for rape, on their release they're still accepted by all
the other eckists - after all, it's probably karma or something and
the victim deserved it - and their victims are even expected to be
cordial to them! And whoops - too bad about those two California
eckteens who committed suicide, they must not have been "hu-ing"
enough to stop the "Kal" from appearing "on the inner" as Harold
Klemp. Gawd, stuff likes this makes the usual eckcrime - ripping off
your fellow eckists with various "money-making" schemes - so
insignificant!!
You eckthugs disgust me. And you oughtta take back your negative
comment about serial killers, since I'm sure your cult is going to
produce at least one eventually, if it hasn't already.
By the way, there's a rare photo of Sri Harold Klemp, the Mahanta, the
Living ECK Master at his own favorite personal Wisdom Temple at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eckankartruth
Gee, this was sort of fun! And the time sure flies when I'm looking
up eckancrap quotes!!! Maybe I'll try to do a bit of "detracting"
again, more often!!
Bye!!
SHARON
cher
recently with all the news stories about Anna Nicole and her hillbilly
ontourage! How's that for French! <grin> I see you're still
comfortable calling women "c__ts", which doesn't surprise me given
you've probably heard the word a million times at the truck stop. How
terribly sad and telling. <shrug> So you plan to bring your homegrown
talent for salacious gossip and slander back to usenet again! There's
another oldtimer in the wood pile too, but haven't figured out which
of the social cripples it is as of yet! Saw sword the other day, but
he's lost his edge.
> ...
>
> read more ยป- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
cher
seen what you posit as truth, so this isn't compelling evidence, but
for you it's all that's necessary! So long as it fits the string of
vial thoughts and opinions you hold dear! Such is life in the narrow
corridors of kent's tiny mind!
cher
out of date and no longer available to members of Eckankar! It's even
likely there were editorial changes from the format you claim to have
available to the format I am of course more familiar with! That
doesn't mean that you didn't simply cut and paste the material from
sharon's evil site to this group though. Sorry... one thing simply
doesn't prove the other in this instance! It would take an objective
observer to corroborate your claim!
What I do find so interesting hiding in your words here is a reality!
Fact is, you're right... I most likely joined Eckankar as you were
leaving it! Ships that pass silently in the night! <smile> That means
the entire time I've been a member of this path, you've been touting
your former membership and lording your past initiation level on
people as if this were relevant to anyone other than yourself. It's a
bit like visiting the local VA hospital, and hearing all the oldtimers
in the halls talking to thin air about their war stories. Really sad,
and kind of hopeless when you look at it in context with a healthy
productive life. <shrug> Oh well... I guess if it's the only milestone
you have from your past.... oh well. <shrug>
Ken
Becoming one with the ECK, the life-essence, is not claiming
proprietary ownership of it.
--
Ken
Tian Yue
Sharon's site I could have saved myself some typing! Thanks, Sharon!
My god, this is so stupid I can't pretend it is otherwise. One must
eventually just come right out and state the obvious. Eckists here
copy and paste (as Sharon pointed out, one can't cut from a website)
from loads of websites. I guess Cheryl doesn't like it when the shoe
is on the other foot. Rampant plagiarism/copyright infringement is
okay, so long as its a one way street, eh?
As to my original Letters to a Chela discourse, I have them here in my
hands. Copyright, 1971 (discourses 1-8) copyright 1972 (9-12).
Amazingly, they were being written as I received them. The cover of
each discourse is canary yellow, stating on the covers, Paul Twitchell
Presents, Letters to a Chela, Series One (he planned another series,
but died before he could write them--so much for abilities to read the
soul records), and the five little men (the five bodies) are also on
the covers. Two rectangles interlaced are in the background. There are
about 6 or 7 pages to each discourse, 12 discourses in all.
If any one has not read these discourses, they are worth a read, since
they are some of the most cultic of all of PT's writings, in my view.
It is amazing I was allowed to read these manipulative discourses at
age sixteen. Go to Sharon's site (see her post on this thread) to read
them.
I think, with these details, Cheryl would be making a complete fool of
herself to quibble further about my having lied about my sources of
the discourses, not that this matters in the slightest.
Tian Yue
cher
Another thread and you make this out to be about me? Honestly kent, I
swear there are days when I'd bet you're karl rove incognito! As I
said earlier, it doesn't matter that you have nothing else to do with
your life but dig through dusty old documents from decades ago trying
to prove to a usenet newsgroup that you have some imagined status in
regards to a religion you supposedly left decades ago! <shrug>
As for the shoe on the other foot, well... given that plagiarism is
such a stick up the butts of detractors, it's always amazing to see
the hypocrasy in your abuse of it when it serves your purposes!
Rampant rationalization, so obvious to everyone else but you!
<smiling>
Rich
Wow... While Sharon's still perpetuating old lies and creating new ones
about Eckists, spewing her own pus out as insults, and demonstrating her
ignorance, at least, unlike most of her cohorts, she is honest about how she
enjoys her feelings of LOATHING, REVULSION and disgust.(Simple "Hate" not
being stimulating enough to describe her bile.)
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Rich~~~~(__________/~~~~Sailing the CyberSea~~~~~
"Sharon" <bright...@yahoo.com> wrote