PEACE BETWEEN RELIGIONS
Cassie Dell
between various religions. Someone there had the idea to set aside a
day for people of all religions to meditate on peace between the
religions. As I see it, people of all religions and faiths have more
in common with each other than with anyone else. We are all trying for
the same things, just in different ways.
I would ask that anyone who supports this cause, meditate/pray on the
set day (Sept. 6th) and light a candle. Also, please pass the idea on
to friends and family of all faiths.
Thank you,
~Cassie
Bright Thunder
all the worlds religious adherents, so as to determine the one true
religion and the one true god, winner take all.
Niall
Jim
with it. Acceptance and support often seem like such uphill struggles, even
amongst those who agree on many things - even amongst druids :^) So many
things have been destroyed and lost, oftentimes with 'good' intentions.
I don't think it's a bad thing to weave interfaith awareness into our
daily practice as well, and a heavy concentrated burst, like you suggest,
can help to inspire such movement, one step at a time.
I don't know what you're into Cassie, but some druids use Muin (the
vine) as a powerful symbol of unity: Tresim Fedma (strongest of effort), as
it weaves through the forest, uniting all sorts of trees. It also makes a
pretty nice drink too!
Sláinte! (cheers!), to you and yours, and all on the 6th September.
Jim.
Bright Thunder
wildfire.
Niall
John Michael Greer
> Christian Druids, now theres a tantalizing thought. That could take off like
> wildfire.
William Stukeley was already there in the eighteenth century.
John Michael Greer
Bright Thunder
culdees ass, who ever they may be.
Niall
talyfox
--
------------------------------------------------------------
"Cassie Dell" <cassi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:aca52cf2.01081...@posting.google.com...
Bright Thunder
Niall
talyfox wrote:
Jim
> Christian Druids, now theres a tantalizing thought.
I think you might be kind of missing my point here???
Jim.
Bright Thunder
giving any form of positive recognition to Christianity and I'm even
more against mixing Christianity with so called Druidism. If you have a
point to make, please state it and I shall treat your response
respectfully. My negative words are only directed at what now passes for
Neo Druidry and the Christian religion. I tend to tell Culdee Druid
leaders what I think but feel it would be rude to say the same to an
adherent of the path.
Niall
Cassie Dell
weekend of Sept. 7th to give everyone to maximum opportunity to
participate. I'm sorry for any inconvenience this change may cause.
I wanted to clarify a point regarding all of this. This is *not* about
mixing religions. It is about getting rid of the hostility between
religions, and fostering an attitude of peace and understanding.
~Cassie
Bright Thunder <clo...@softcom.net> wrote in message news:<3B7C4051...@softcom.net>...
Jim
Remember that what you say here goes around the world and gives people
impressions of what we're like and what we do. Any visitor who comes to
this group with respect and manners should be treated likewise and given the
up-most hospitality. It's a kind of druidic thing ;^)
Jim.
Bright Thunder
noted well over the years here on alt religion druid, the insidious
christianization of druidry. I am well aware that my stand against those
bastards is not at all popular here. Well so much for current political
correctness and pier pressures.
Niall
Jim
Nialls, I haven't the energy, inclination or wisdom at the moment, to
continue this one. Trash my opinion, by all means, but I suspect you have a
few demons that you're probably best left facing up to alone.
With respect,
Jim.
Dana
> That's your opinion! Some have not forgot the burning times. By the way, I
have
> noted well over the years here on alt religion druid, the insidious
> christianization of druidry. I am well aware that my stand against those
> bastards is not at all popular here. Well so much for current political
> correctness and pier pressures.
>
I haven't forgotten the Burning Times, though I do see it misused to justify
a lot of schlock and hysteria. I'm also not very politically correct.
However........Niall, maybe if you'd stop trying to make Druidry into a
religion and elect yourself as ARD's Druid fundie, it would be easier to
tolerate well-meaning christians who are willing to serve the Land. Or
pagans on a Druidic path who don't view all christians as evil.
Dana
Bright Thunder
If you even had half a clue about who I am, you would know that it is me alone
that speaks out here against making Druidry into a dogmatic religion and a
hierarchical power trip. I alone spearheaded that cause here on ARD some years
ago and in the process, pissed all the merchants off. Tell her Searles, don't
just sit there, your silence clearly demonstrates that your take on neo druidry
is all about competition for bodies and to hell with solidarity in any form.
I have always said here on this news group that I do not even want students. At
my age, it's time to let others do the work of teaching. I turn people away
constantly, so don't accuse me of seeking any form of power.
I speak only of creating some form of neo Druidic inter traditional solidarity
and you wish to turn my altruistic efforts into self serving. Folks here like
Searles knowing better, he sits by "silently" letting you rant, hoping you will
succeed in cutting the limb off behind me.
Obviously any form solidarity is not in the cards at this time.
Let me tell you sweetie, you are way way out of your league. Do a little
homework on all things Druid and come back in a year or so.
Niall
Searles ODubhain
I thought you were doing a great job of taking care of this issue on your
own. I agree with most of what you've said. The only thing my comments would
add to this particular discussion would be the hidden and personal agendas
of others that would cloud the issue.
In general, I'm glad to see you taking a constructive approach to clearing
away much of the smoke that sometimes gets in the eyes of some on this
newsgroup.
I'm not looking for students or followers but knowledge and clarity are
always welcome.
Searles
"Bright Thunder" <clo...@softcom.net> wrote in message
news:3B812EA4...@softcom.net...
><snip>
Tell her Searles, don't
> just sit there, your silence clearly demonstrates that your take on neo
druidry
> is all about competition for bodies and to hell with solidarity in any
form.
>
<snip>
Bright Thunder
you as the prime source of information and inspiration here, and for this I
truly respect you, even though it may not seem so. The fact that you said that
Druidry is going through growing pains tells me that you fully realize that all
is not yet cast in stone regarding our future.
What I seek in Druidry is to see social order prevailing over chaos, something
that so far is but a dream.
In the Indian world I come from complacency is our worst enemy in that once we
stop self examination and think we have arrived, it's all over.
I made an altruistic proposal and you did not step in to defend me against that
nubbie who said I was only here seeking power and a supreme hierarchy of some
kind.
It is our duty to step in if someone attacks another who is only working for the
betterment of us all.
This is the solidarity I refer to. Even by creating a clear division in Druidry
between Culdees and Conservatives there is solidarity, in that one knows just
where the other stands. Not seeking a war, just a delineation.
Niall
Dana
> Well there you go again making a fool of yourself and all the other
nubbies.
LOL!! Ok, *now* it's getting good.....
"Nubbies"??? Isn't that a quality of certain upholstery fabrics? Have I
become a couch???
Hmmm....all this abusive language..... I must be hitting a nerve.......
> If you even had half a clue about who I am, you would know that it is me
alone
> that speaks out here against making Druidry into a dogmatic religion and a
> hierarchical power trip. I alone spearheaded that cause here on ARD some
years
> ago and in the process, pissed all the merchants off.
Oh, ok, I get it!!! This is the point at which I realize I have in fact
found the Great Druid Master I've been looking for all these years, only to
have pissed him off with my foolish blithering. IIRC, I'm supposed to gasp
in dismay, weep, throw myself on his mercy, etc.... I will of course be
rejected repeatedly for some indefinite period of time while I follow along
after him abjectly abasing myself and doing his laundry.......
Yeah, right, I've seen those samauri movies too........ The story goes
something more like this:
Last Friday afternoon was slow at work. So I was doing a search on ard for
some old posts and I happened to run across one of yours. Which spurred me
to do a search on *your* posts. I didn't have a prayer of reading it all,
you're way too prolific, but yes, I know you claim to belong to some secret
Druid order nobody's ever heard of that was begun in 1540-something and
moved to America from Ireland in the 1920s. You also claim a 3rd degree in
British traditional wicca and were posting as "Lord Cuhulann" (your
spelling) on arwicca & arwitchcraft. And it's all the same old same
old...you come in swinging, bashing christianity and telling people they're
full of shit. You change your argument positions faster than most men
change shirts. If that doesn't get you enough of a cheering section, you
play the Poor Victimized Irish/Indian card. If that doesn't work, you claim
you were doing some research survey for your mysterious secret order and
just wanted to shake everyone up to get "honest" responses. If that doesn't
work, you disappear for a few months, only to come back and start it all
again, apparently assuming that people have the attention spans of gnats.
As near as I can tell, you were the one to start using "culdee" as a
derogatory term for Druidry "corrupted" by christianity. I personally would
prefer to keep christianity out of Druidry for a number of reasons, but
yours is still an inaccurate use of the word. But hey, nobody take my word
for it, do your own Google search. It's all there, preserved for posterity.
Tell her Searles, don't
> just sit there, your silence clearly demonstrates that your take on neo
druidry
> is all about competition for bodies and to hell with solidarity in any
form.
Oh, that's funny.....you appealing to Searles.......
> I have always said here on this news group that I do not even want
students. At
> my age, it's time to let others do the work of teaching. I turn people
away
> constantly, so don't accuse me of seeking any form of power.
Well, we only have your word for that, after all. And power isn't
necessarily a group of dewy-eyed disciples sitting at your knee.....
> I speak only of creating some form of neo Druidic inter traditional
solidarity
> and you wish to turn my altruistic efforts into self serving. Folks here
like
> Searles knowing better, he sits by "silently" letting you rant, hoping you
will
> succeed in cutting the limb off behind me.
Altruism doesn't need to be abusive. If it's true (and it mostly isn't but
is only a posture), it shines like a star. I don't see anything shining
here just now.
> Obviously any form solidarity is not in the cards at this time.
There's plenty of solidarity here if you look for it. But it's not on your
terms, so I expect it's invisible.
> Let me tell you sweetie, you are way way out of your league. Do a little
> homework on all things Druid and come back in a year or so.
>
Yeah, yeah, yeah........
Dana
John Michael Greer
> This is the solidarity I refer to. Even by creating a clear division in Druidry
> between Culdees and Conservatives there is solidarity, in that one knows just
> where the other stands.
Um, no. If there's no clear delineation in the real world, by trying to impose one,
you create a false image of "just where the other stands" and then waste your time
attacking it. Nor can you can get solidarity by promoting divisiveness.
I'm not qualified to speak on the situation among Native Americans -- though I have
some Lakota ancestry I wasn't raised in any sort of contact with the culture. But
it seems to me that you're projecting that experience onto the very different
situation of modern Druidry. If you look at the last century or so of the evolution
of the Druid path -- and any shorter perspective risks missing the forest for the
trees -- you'll notice that the Christian presence within Druidry has been
progressively fading out, and is getting very thin on the ground.
Even in OBOD -- which I gather you despise (have you actually had any direct
contact with it?) -- this is a major theme of the last thirty years or so. In the
1970s, former Chosen Chief Ross Nichols was closing ceremonies with the Cabalistic
Cross. You won't find that now! To give Nichols credit, he was one of the people
who introduced the Goddess to the Druid scene in England. These days OBOD is paying
a lot of attention to Celtic Pagan tradition, and what I hear from Philip Carr-Gomm
is that the new version of the study course contains a *lot* more traditional lore
-- triads, myths, bardic poetry, and so on.
Meanwhile the liberal wing of Christianity is looking increasingly like the Pagans
they once tried to convert. Whatever your feelings about (say) Matthew Fox -- and
I'm not one of his fans -- what he's doing has a lot more in common with modern
Paganism than it does with historical Christianity. My guess is within fifty years
most of what's now liberal Christianity will have been absorbed by the Pagan scene.
Wake up and smell the oak leaves. We don't need more arbitrary divisions backed up
by self-righteous indignation -- leave that to the fundamentalists. We need a
willingness to set aside squabbles and get to work together.
John Michael Greer
root
"John Michael Greer" <thre...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3B827F8D...@earthlink.net...
My understanding of what I know about Ross Nichols, is that he was
Christian, but in his druidic aspect he was a druid. Alot of the British
druidic and bardic lore was lost to the Christians, so the reconstruction of
druidry in Britain had to make do with the Christianised lore. Besides
which, I very much doubt the reconstruction would have begun as early as it
did if it were not for the fact that most of the british lore was
Christianised, and we may well have lost 150-200 years of reconstruction had
it tried to be all-out pagan in the beginning. Now that the Christian aspect
is fading somewhat, it is now far easier to get into the earlier Celtic
Pagan tradition, and we already have many clues to help us from the
Christianised lore, which may well have been ignored if the reconstruction
had begun as all-out pagan. As I said to Niall in another thread, the
Christians do have something to offer, if we can accept it in the correct
context and not get bogged down in whether or not Christianity is right or
wrong - (not directed at you John).
Thankfully the Irish Druidic and bardic lore has survived more 'intact' and
we can use that as a point of reference to help decode the British lore, and
bring it back out from hiding.
with respect
root
John Michael Greer
> My understanding of what I know about Ross Nichols, is that he was
> Christian, but in his druidic aspect he was a druid.
One of the things that impresses me about a lot of the people in the
mid-twentieth century British Pagan scene is that they were more interested in
building bridges than in raising walls. Nichols was simultaneously a druid, a
Martinist ceremonial magician, and an active member in a Celtic Christian
church (that, incidentally, denied the historical reality of Jesus). He saw no
conflict among these.
The same is true of other folks in the same time period -- the much-maligned
Dion Fortune, for example, who basically kickstarted the Goddess movement in
Britain but also wrote meditations on the Anglican liturgy that are prized by
Episcopalian friends of mine. For that matter, Gerald Gardner himself was
ordained as a Christian priest in 1946 in the Ancient British Church, another
of the small esoterically oriented Christian churches of the time. (Fans of the
independent Catholic movement will probably want to know that Gardner was
consecrated by Dorian Herbert, Bishop of Caerleon.)
Let me say this slowly, with maximum clarity -- not for your benefit, Root,
you've clearly got this, but for much of the rest of the list:
The idea that all of the religions of the world can be divided into two
mutually exclusive groups, with Christianity on one side and everything else on
the other, is a purely Christian concept.
If you accept that division, you're accepting one of the preconceptions of
Christian theology. If you actually get outside Christian theology, then
Christianity is just one more religion among many others. It has its particular
strengths and weaknesses, to be sure, but it's in no way unique, or radically
separate from historical Paganism.
I mean, come on -- there's a pair of sacrificial figures: one (John the
Baptist) who is born of an old woman at midsummer, and beheaded and buried in
the fall, the planting season in Palestine; the other born of a young virgin at
midwinter in a town whose name literally means "House of Bread," raised up
above the earth in a sacrificial death at the time of the harvest. The second
one, the central one in historical Christianity, has his twelve zodiacal
followers, not to mention the ceremonial feast where everybody eats his body
and drinks his blood, and a triple goddess standing at his feet at the
Crucifixion. Over that flurry of Pagan mythic imagery goes a full-blown
Neoplatonist mystical philosophy and theology with heavy Hellenistic Egyptian
influences. What could be more Pagan?
John Michael Greer
Wade Baugher
call sign (and people constantly rise to his baited remarks) the 86
list doesn't really work. I've started simply ignoring his posts.
--
Wade
> "Dana" wrote:
> LOL!! Ok, *now* it's getting good.....
<snip>
John Michael Greer
> Thankfully the Irish Druidic and bardic lore has survived more 'intact' and
> we can use that as a point of reference to help decode the British lore, and
> bring it back out from hiding.
Very true! It's also possible to use Indo-European sources, with care, to do
the same thing. Even in suspect sources such as Iolo Morganwg, you can find
material that hearks back to archaic I-E mythology -- which argues that these
are some of the bits he actually got from authentic sources. Either that, or he
knew as much about comparative mythology and Sanskrit and Pahlavi literature as
anyone alive in the early 19th century, which seems a little unlikely...
John Michael Greer
Wade Baugher
preeminent Celtic scholars of his time. It is a point that
often gets lost in all the mud slinging.
--
Wade
"John Michael Greer" <thre...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3B829BDE...@earthlink.net...
Bright Thunder
Niall
Beirdd
>
> The idea that all of the religions of the world can be divided into two
> mutually exclusive groups, with Christianity on one side and everything else on
> the other, is a purely Christian concept.
>
> If you accept that division, you're accepting one of the preconceptions of
> Christian theology. If you actually get outside Christian theology, then
> Christianity is just one more religion among many others. It has its particular
> strengths and weaknesses, to be sure, but it's in no way unique, or radically
> separate from historical Paganism.
In my brief time among Pagans (about 10 years) I have also found that a majority
of the outspoken ones (whether they are a true majority of the Pagan community or
not, I have no idea) also divide the religions of the world into two groups:
Judeo-Christian (more accurately "People of the Book," since Islam is included)
and everyone else. According to your observation, this would be mighty Christian
of them.
Your observation that "Christianity is just one more religion among many others"
is accurate, without a doubt, as are your other observations about its connection
with Paganism. Catholicism, which is viewed as pagan by many of the other
Christian churches, actually has a view of itself that is not too far from your
observations. Few would know this however (on any side, BTW) , since "blessed
ignorance" is often practiced as a virtue by the followers of any religion,
whether directed at the faith of others' or at their own. But we are only, after
all, human ;-) Then there are those who knowingly promote such ignorance within
themselves and among others. But we are speaking of spirituality and theology
here, not of psychology and politics.
My own belief is that when one has a willingness to attempt to understand the
hints and signs to the answers of the great existential questions, then they
cannot help but understand themselves better and, by extension, others. Hostility
is never a quality of the life spiritually led. This has been my main point among
my Pagan brothers and sisters since I have been a part of this community. It has
introduced me to people of great character whom I am blessed to number among my
closest friends. It has also been a bullseye on my chest :-) but it's a nice one,
very colorful, often nicked but never penetrated ;-)
Really, I think it comes down to this: Whatever you are, be a good one.
--Beirdd
danyderi
Have to disagree on all counts. IoIo, was born into an interesting period
and its quite complex. Three types of events is going on at that time, the
Welsh Gentry was not interested in their obligations to traditions. Thus the
middling order arose and the Antiquarians appear to fill the gap. The early
death of Lluyd, had its influence on there scholarship, they appear to
temporally loss some of the objectivity in looking at the material. IoIo is
caught up in the revival, as indeed are those in Brittany, England, Scotland
and Ireland. Yet IoIo had some reasonable teachers in Coybridge during his
younger days. There is also his mother who claimed some form, as we might
say today. The war of independence in the new world, also had a helping
hand. One of his elder brothers is buried stateside but was not involved in
it, having arrived from the Caribbean afterwards. The peoples revolution in
France also had an effect. Perhaps IoIo had read Theophilus Evans Welsh
translation of Peron work. He investigated the claim of the Bretton monk of
1500's who aligned the language to the Greeks. But Peron is one of Lluyds
associates in Brittany who argued that it was I.E. The rest is 300 years of
history once it was accepted in the 19th century. Everyone appears to have
followed suit on this theoretical model since. Incidendly Evans book, 'Drych
y Prif Oesoedd' (1716) became a best seller in Wales. It too was very
influencial till the early 20th centry.
The little forgery about America and Madoc, which sent John Evans all the
way packing up the Missouri on a wild hunt. I wonder what would have been
the story if IoIo has gone along with him as he had intended too. However,
one has to look back to another man of Welsh descent John Dee to find the
answer, but it did not belong to IoIo he just uncovered the evidence. That
was to do with a political plow with Elizabeth I, if you want to get at the
Truth. Incidentally Dee stirred the cauldron in Europe, gave birth to quite
a few mystery groups there which went under ground for a bit. Including the
later Golden Dawn which has its roots there if I recall correctly. One other
thing too, perhaps we have mislaid that William Blake also stood on the
white mound with IoIo in 1792 held the Gorsedd was performed in London.
There has always been links and indeed travellers to Europe and further
afield the evidence is in your area Root, from the Bronze Age.
danyderi
Getting playful for a change.
root
But I have to ask, what did he achieve in the practical sense of the Druid
revival?
with respect
root
"danyderi" <dany...@astrocelt.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:998436786.24469.0...@news.demon.co.uk...
danyderi
root <mat...@nworder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:eyKg7.19612$in6.2...@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com...
> I see old Iolo Morganwg is a very controversial figure.
> But I have to ask, what did he achieve in the practical sense of the Druid
> revival?
Bora da, IoIo and his compatriots achieved the introduction of the Gorsedd
into the Eisteddfod, it too was performed this year in Denbigh. It has
become an integrated part of the cultural celebrations. Admit there is
indeed a problem about the authenticity. But you know, after they have been
performed for so long it becomes part of the culture, perhaps some simply
don't ask the question. Besides its just about nine degrees and should be in
the memory. They also achieved collecting various source materials. Scholars
like WJ Gruffydd had literally spent his lifetime trying to get at the truth
of the mater, as other and later scholars have also contributed. I suppose
if Fairbanks had never burnt the library at Reglan then the evidence and no
doubt the truth would be known from before the 14th century. In a practical
sense he recorded some of the traditions, but then again he also "blew it"
at the same time. Much the same as that other book that receives some band
width here on ard. IoIo must of done something for the revival otherwise he
wouldn't be the topic of discussion 200 years later. The main by product of
all this is it congealed the nation together after the civil war. As it put
a rift between the commercial interests and traditional power (i.e.
sovereign), suppose they have to learn to live together sometime, its a
balance thing. However, enjoy your 30's, hope to listen to a new root in
the near future, a new and continuous pathway of the journey.
golwg
danyderi.
root
Did Iolo and his lot have anything to do with 'moving' public druidic
ceremonies to megalithic sites in Britain?
And also did he not help instigate the building of 'new' megalithic sites.
Is not a stone circle constructed at the site of every National Eisteddfod?
I'd like to know some reasoning behind this, (if there is indeed any).
diolch ar hwyl!
with respect
root
"danyderi" <dany...@astrocelt.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:998481910.27158.0...@news.demon.co.uk...
>
> root <mat...@nworder.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:eyKg7.19612$in6.2...@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com...
> > I see old Iolo Morganwg is a very controversial figure.
> > But I have to ask, what did he achieve in the practical sense of the
Druid
> > revival?
>
> Bore da, Iolo and his compatriots achieved the introduction of the Gorsedd
John Michael Greer
> Have to disagree on all counts.
We're actually in agreement. My ref. to Iolo as a "suspect source" is simply a
recognition that he did, in his own time, exactly what a lot of the people on
this list are doing now: i.e., creating a Druid tradition relevant to his own
time, using as much traditional lore as he could get but filling in the gaps
with his own creative imagination. Nothing wrong with that!
My point was mostly that he doesn't deserve the wholesale condemnation he
sometimes gets from people in the current Druid revival. One of these days,
when my background in comparative Indo-European linguistics is solid enough to
bear the weight, I'm planning on an essay tracing one or two of the mythic
passages from Barddas straight back to archaic I-E material. He had access to a
lot of traditional stuff, and that needs to be pointed out...
John Michael Greer
John Michael Greer
> I see old Iolo Morganwg is a very controversial figure.
> But I have to ask, what did he achieve in the practical sense of the Druid
> revival?
His material provided the essential theological and philosophical core to most
of the 19th and early 20th-century Druid movement, and made it possible for a
lot of British traditional Druidry to start detaching itself from Christian
orthodoxy. A lot of the material on reincarnation and the three circles of
existence in Barddas is set in a monotheist but not specifically Christian
framework, a sort of Druid Unitarianism; that seems pretty tame now, but it was
amazingly radical for the 1860s. It also opened the door to much more radical
moves in the early twentieth century, when the Druid orders had their encounter
with the Celtic Twilight and the Golden Dawn, and started down the road to
full-blown Pagan approaches.
Iolo also played a very important role in making Druidry respectable in
Britain. Getting the Eisteddfod to start using his rituals was a masterly coup
on his part; all of a sudden you had Methodist ministers and stuffy academics
enacting Druid ceremonies in the full light of the media of the time. That
convinced a lot of people that while Druidry might be a little eccentric, it
wasn't evil or scandalous, and made life a lot easier for Druids in the
Victorian period and thereafter. Not a small feat, that; Golden Dawn founder W.
W. Westcott got into a huge amount of career trouble when word leaked out about
his occult involvements, but around the same time, Winston Churchill was
initiated into a Druid order right out in public at Blenheim Palace and nobody
thought twice about it.
To this day a very large fraction of what's done by the traditional Druid
orders in Britain goes straight back to what might as well be called Iolo's Own
Druidry. Not a bad legacy.
John Michael Greer
Dana
"Wade Baugher" <xremove...@home.com> wrote in message
news:%Rwg7.123868$EP6.33...@news1.rdc2.pa.home.com...
> Dana, I put him on my filter list long ago. Since he's changed his
> call sign (and people constantly rise to his baited remarks) the 86
> list doesn't really work. I've started simply ignoring his posts.
> --
Hey Wade,
You know, the only person I’ve ever kill-filed is an idiot on another list
who constantly sends in long posts of dumb, tasteless jokes. That may
change soon, however. I honestly thought there might be something
worthwhile to be learned here when I originally responded to Niall, but I’m
seeing I was mistaken. Call me silly, but I expect anyone claiming
authority or “elder” status in the pagan community to know at least as much
about the subject(s) as I do and to be able to discuss in a rational, civil
manner any apparent inconsistencies in their statements or positions. I’m
instantly suspicious of anyone who can’t tolerate having their authority or
knowledge questioned, let alone those who respond with abuse of any sort. I
’ve seen far too many low-lifes out there in paganism who intimidate,
manipulate and psychologically (and sometimes verbally and physically) abuse
those who come to them for teaching, dangling them along with hints and
promises of “secret” teachings to be revealed to those who “prove themselves
worthy” with sufficient grovelling. The damage they do is incalculable,
both to their victims and to the reputation of paganism as a whole, but too
often people are too scared or uncertain to say anything. Since I don’t
scare easily, I do say something when it’s in front of my face. This makes
me a difficult person to know sometimes, but I'm fortunate to have some
priceless people for friends whom it’s an honor to know and who understand.
Dan's one of them.
So......sorry about the clutter in the mailbox.....
Dana
danyderi
> Prynhawn da Danyderi, ydych i'n iawn?,
> Did Iolo and his lot have anything to do with 'moving' public druidic
> ceremonies to megalithic sites in Britain?
> And also did he not help instigate the building of 'new' megalithic sites.
It came afterwards, though IoIo is recorded as visit some ancient sites.
> Is not a stone circle constructed at the site of every National
Eisteddfod?
Not always the case in this modern time, they leave no trace apart from the
published literature I understand.
> I'd like to know some reasoning behind this, (if there is indeed any).
The reasoning is either simple or very in-depth, it becomes different for
each individual who wishes to understand it. Very similar to your
images mentioned in another post. However to understand the reasons
one makes the journey or quest, but it has to be of your own choosing.
Yet being confused is also the first step towards understanding, it happens
rather a lot, you're looking OK.
> diolch ar hwyl!
d'iawn
golwg
danyderi.
John Michael Greer
> One problem with this argument is that the traditional materials would
> likely have been in Welsh--and Iolo's Welsh was pretty poor.
His English was by all accounts better than his Welsh, but that doesn't mean his
command of Welsh was negligible. A reading knowledge -- which is what he'd have to
have in order to make sense of the traditional materials -- is a lot easier than
fluency in speech and composition.
> Moreover, it's a bit risky to think one can backtrack, as it were, to
> archaic I.E. material--a resemblance may well have come from
> contemporary materials--ranging from popularizations of folklore (Iolo
> does quote Scott, for instance, without attribution).--to traditional
> tales of a local flavor.
Every scrap we have of IE material has been worked out by exactly this sort of
backtracking process -- and often with materials that spent a long time in oral
transmission, soaking up contemporary materials, local tales, and so on.
I wouldn't want to try to trace all of Iolo's stuff back to archaic sources!
There's some specific mythic material in Iolo's work, attached to names that are
either not otherwise attested or fairly obscure, and the conjunction of those
names and those myths is hard to explain except on the hypothesis that he had
access to some old material with very archaic roots. (I'd rather not go into
specifics at this point because I haven't picked up the background to be sure my
hypothesis will stand up.)
> Why not simply work with some of the authentic ancient materials? Not
> much has been done with the so-called hereditary mss.--these tend to be
> law or medical mss., and there are a fair number in the National
> Library, and in private hands.
>
> That strikes me as a much better place to look. There materials are in
> Welsh, they were compiled by members of a family, and they are a known
> tradition.
Granted! But if one doesn't happen to live in Great Britain and the National
Library (etc.) collections are close to half the planet away, one does what one
can with what one has. The main point of the exercise would not be to present Iolo
as the best possible authority, anyway -- just to show that he doesn't deserve to
be chucked out with the trash.
John Michael Greer
Daibhi
> I was just being facetious as usual. Never pass up an opportunity to rub salt in a
> culdees ass, who ever they may be.
>
> Niall
Thanks...ouch! :^)
daibh