Atheist Spam
OSRIC
culture and Druidry that is really of significance in today's world. I have
hovered around this NG for years now and have seen many interpretations of
what Druidry is all about.
In my view much of the stuff we read on alt.religion.druid stems from
19th and early 20th century mysticism and owes little to the culture of the
Celts. That's fair enough up to a point but in reality the values and ideas
common to modern druidry has little or nothing to do with the values ad
belief systems of the Celts. Anyone with a grasp of the difference between
the Celtic culture and the 20th century must know that there is a gulf of
understanding and the priorities of life that cannot be fully understood let
alone bridged. I have spent countless hours researching the history of
Sussex during the English civil war. Having seriously looked into the
characters of the individuls concerned and their motivations I am aware of
how difficult it is to understand the mindset of man only 350 years ago. To
lay claim to the religious legacy of a culture extinguished for all intents
and purposes 1500 years ago is frankly a farce.
That is not to say that the desire to do so is not overwhelming. Today I
went for a 10 mile walk that went along a Celtic road between two
Hill-forts. The spiritual residue of these people is unmistakable (although
the pre-Celts residue is far more powerful). No-one with any soul can fail
to be moved, I look up at a Hill-fort as I write. But I can never be a Celt
or a Druid. And nor can I recognise anyone else's claim to such a legacy.
But deeper is my criticism of the New-Age Deruid movement. All to often
we see on this Newsgroup some generally spurious but nonetheless sincere
claim to ancestral derivation from Celts. Often this is linked to some
genetic insight or claim to Celtic culture. In response to this I would
remind any would-be Druid that if you look into the history of esotericism
in the last 150 years you will see thatr such ideas culminated in the weird
esotericism of the SS. This may sound extreme, but if you look into the real
nature of Nazi Germany you will find a strong influence of esoteric thought
on the likes of Himmler in particular and and the rest of them to a lesser
extent. The so called New-age movement is nothing new. This may sound
alarmist but it is in fact true; although I would not suggest that this NG
is a haven of neo-nazis I would like to warn that developing a culture with
the power of religious belief that identifies ones spirituality and place in
the world with genetic heritage has dangerous precedents.
My final criticism is linked to a posting I made on this NG about a year
ago entitled the Age of Self-Theism. The belief system most similar to moder
Druidry is modern neo-liberlism, associated, dare I say it, with the late
sixties. This ideal does not fundamentally challenge the 20th century
society's excesses but instead urges that civilization to channel is surplus
into enhancing the life of the individual. This contrasts very strongly with
a fundamental of ancient societies in that there is a stress on the
obligations of the individual to be subservient to the interests of society
as is illustrated by the practice of human sacrifice. This is necessary for
tribal survival. What greater statement could there be??? The bottom line is
that the surplus produced by modern society that allows us to adopt high
moral ground attitudes with regards to the interests of the individual is
exactly the force that is destroying the ecological balance that modern
druidry seeks to embrace. This is the dichotomy at the heart of modern
druidry: the mismatch of "personal power" and the rights of man to his
individuality with the deference of iron-age man to the natural forces on
whom he was dependent for his survival.
BTW PJS does my discussion of the nature of Celtic society and modern
druidry constitute "atheist Spam"?
OSRIC
THE BORDERS OF MY COUNTRY
RUN AROUND THE SOLES OF MY FEET
PJS
"OSRIC" <Os...@reschs.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
> BTW PJS does my discussion of the nature of Celtic society and modern
> druidry constitute "atheist Spam"?
-----------------------------------------------------------------
No. I agree with almost everything you said except the "linear" assumption that
the further back in time you go the more contrasting the culture must be. But
the trouble is, all you do is slag people off. I know some people might say
that sounds rich coming from me, but really, what are you advocating if it
isn't atheism.
---
No matter where you go in the World, there you are.
Cat...@my-dejanews.com
"OSRIC" <Os...@reschs.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
I didn't have the heart to snip any of this post, thus it reposts again
because I can't help but agree with it all! And before anyone accuses me, I
am not an atheist but I once played one as a teen<G>
Well said!
Tay
> BTW PJS does my discussion of the nature of Celtic society and modern
> druidry constitute "atheist Spam"?
>
> OSRIC
>
> THE BORDERS OF MY COUNTRY
> RUN AROUND THE SOLES OF MY FEET
>
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Ylistra
intents
and purposes 1500 years ago is frankly a farce.>>
Is anyone today able to be those people...? No ~ but... does that have to
preclude the survival of the essence/ideals...? not necessarily ~
Especially after Rome ~ the roles Druid played became increasing less but it
was not ended... that some of who or what they were survived is evident in the
fact there are stories and histories still circulating ~ Druids were not
strictly "religious leaders" (although they certainly were ~ it is not all they
were...) ~ the titles likening them to priest and such came from other
cultures... not knowing how else to describe their import in the society ~ So
striking the "religious" from your statement ~ we are left with only leaders ~
one could just as easily say "You cannot lay claim to the legacy of the past
Kings and Queens" ~ again... perhaps the import of the role they played in
society has changed but they still are ~
<<All to often we see on this Newsgroup some generally spurious but nonetheless
sincere claim to ancestral derivation from Celts. Often this is linked to some
genetic insight or claim to Celtic culture. In response to this I would remind
any would-be Druid that if you look into the history of esotericism in the last
150 years you will see that such ideas culminated in the weird esotericism of
the SS. <snip>
I would like to warn that developing a culture with the power of religious
belief that identifies ones spirituality and place in the world with genetic
heritage has dangerous precedents.>>
Not all Druids ~ even back then ~ had to be Celt.. The knowledge was passed to
whomever was found worthy ~ Present day... I think you'll find most who would
lay claim to a Druid path would have Celt background ~ but I would argue that
to be simply because that is the society in which the stories are most
prevalent ~ I've seen a few arguments stating one must be Celt but I also read
one where they went on to say it was necessary/productive to understand the
culture and language to "get the most benefit from what has been handed
down..." Let's step away from Druids for a moment to NA Shamanism...
Certainly it is easier to follow that path if one is raised in the culture ~
however... it is not exclusive to such ~ Even the old Lakota ("Custer was
Siouxed!" <g>) legends give name to acceptance of the "four colors" of the
world coming together ~
Basically... if someone limits a group to only "one type" of people ~ they are
in danger of dying out ~ The Wise (of any tribe/society) know this and will
make no such claim or mistake...
<< My final criticism is linked to a posting I made on this NG about a year
ago entitled the Age of Self-Theism. The belief system most similar to moder
Druidry is modern neo-liberlism, associated, dare I say it, with the late
sixties. >>
This is true in that some ~ perhaps even most ~ adopt this... ..::shivers::...
but then I have trouble w/ just about "neo~anything" ~ I don't think that one
could honestly say all are this way though...
<<This ideal does not fundamentally challenge the 20th century
society's excesses but instead urges that civilization to channel is surplus
into enhancing the life of the individual. This contrasts very strongly with
a fundamental of ancient societies in that there is a stress on the
obligations of the individual to be subservient to the interests of society
as is illustrated by the practice of human sacrifice. This is necessary for
tribal survival. What greater statement could there be??? This is the
dichotomy at the heart of modern druidry: the mismatch of "personal power" and
the rights of man to his individuality with the deference of iron-age man to
the natural forces on whom he was dependent for his survival.>>
Again ~ we go back to an ability to change "as a society" ~ We now know what
causes droughts/plagues etc... and no longer have to subscribe them to the
whims of a god ~ but... we also are now taught if we do not seek balance... we
are running the risk of harm ~ not in a religious sense ~ but in a scientific
one... if we plant the same area over and over again ~ without giving the earth
rest ~ we deplete the soil of its nutrients thus assuring a poor harvest ~
<<The bottom line is that the surplus produced by modern society that allows us
to adopt high moral ground attitudes with regards to the interests of the
individual is
exactly the force that is destroying the ecological balance that modern druidry
seeks to embrace.>>
Ego vs. Altruism...? Must you give up your individuality to be an asset to
society...? I would argue no ~ If I stand to make millions working for a
company that pays no heed to the environmental repercussions of its work ~
would I take it...? No ~ does that mean I'm sacrificing "my welfare" (and that
of my descendants) for Mother Earth or some higher ideals...? No ~ It is simply
a personal choice made weighing the gains of a "long vs. short run" ~ if I
destroy the world on which I live... I am ensuring the doom of those who will
come after me ~ no matter how much $ I give them...
You needn't give up one for the other ~ the key is (and imo always has been...)
Balance ~
y'|i§ =|=
1 X 2 Willows
>In article <19981122112621...@ng111.aol.com>,
>[....]
>To claim a Celtic background having not even having been
>born or lived in Britain or Ireland is even more ludicrous.
>[....]
Not any more ludicrous than your statement...
Dan T. Felber / One next to Willows
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Philosophy is the attempt to catch a black cat in a dark room,
without the cat actually being there at all." - Pablo Cruz
Ylistra
first... my statement was <<Present day... I think you'll find most who would
lay claim to a Druid path would have Celt background ~ but I would argue that
to be simply because that is the society in which the stories are most
prevalent ~ >>
second... the context now having been made clear ~ how does my definition come
into play...?I don't think one's background either limits or forces people one
way or another ~
>People claim lots of things,
>unfortunately, anyone claiming to have a Celtic background is going to
>have a hell of a job on their hands convincing anyone with a grasp of
>reality.
umm... huh...? I don't get this at all ~
>Having the surname Mcwuffdougle doesn't make you a Celt. People
>are a product of their society and environment.
we're not in disagreement here ~ <<Certainly it is easier to follow that path
if one is raised in the culture ~>>
>Many of the rituals of the druids may well be pre
>Celtic in origin anyway.
Nor were the rituals limited to Druids ~ one can find similarities in many
different cultures... the old "there is nothing new under the Sun" type thing ~
y'|i§ =|=
PJS
<ag...@netcomuk.co.uk> wrote:
>
> What do you call a Celtic background? People claim lots of things,
> Anyway, the Celts were only one of a small number of invaders
> to the shores of Britain. Genetic tests indicate most people living here
> are Britons, not Celts. The term Celtic is only really useful in its
> linguistic sense. Many of the rituals of the druids may well be pre
> Celtic in origin anyway.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Ooh, don't tell the people on IMBAS that, or they'll get very upset indeed.
Druid days
Celt does not equal Druid.
People like you are why I made the choice to stay a loner.
***************************
Câinii latrã, caravana trece.
Make A Site! http://members.aol.com/druiddays/makeasite.html
Make a newsgroup! http://members.aol.com/druiddays/news.html
Usenet Truths & Myths http://members.spree.com/druidsite/strange.html
Ylistra
>
>Celt does not equal Druid.
Was this directed towards me...? if yes ~ then you completely misunderstood
what I said...
I'm willing to go over it further w/ you in email if this is the case ~
y'|i§ =|=
Ylistra
>claim to be a Mongol Warrior.
difficult perhaps ~ but not impossible... please refer to to the NA Shaman
example I gave ~ it applies ~
as to the rest of it... ..::sighs::.. I absolutely refuse to argue definitions
w/ you ~
y'|i§ =|=
1 X 2 Willows
>
>disprove any of the points I made. Typical. Can you give me a rational
>argument? Or is it going to be an 'I'm right and your wrong' school yard
>chanting contest? I take it you disagree with my views?
>--
>Adam.
>
Let's keep Grammar and swift use of catchy terms out of this - we all wrestle
the difficulties of communication standards - be it even the language itself.
I have neither intended to deny your statements in plural, nor have I meant to
appear before you in a truly hostile way. It has only been the one opinion of
yours and which was cited in my petty reply, that will undoubtedly brighten
the mood of any of us who are aware of our Celtic heritage, yet have been born
into the land, which has only been the cradle for all those who finally
settled in today's British Isles.
Then again - claiming any 'true' Celtic background for only the families who
followed the unfortunate Vercingetorix in his quest for withstanding the
pressing forces of Rome would be just as silly. Such a statement would only
pass the smirky smiles on to our Sisters and Brothers across the former 'Iron
Curtain' and from there, ever closer towards the songs of our ancestors which
still resonate in our spirit, even though some of us might have picked up a
refreshing gene or three along the way and through the milleniums.
Excuse me for being hesitant about a longer reply at first, for it is quite
common within this NG to see debaters throw in a statement and disappear
again. Fortunately, you are fond of debate and I in return would be interested
to read more about *your* interpretation of a 'Celtic background'.
Is mise le meas
Searles O'Dubhain
In a sense, each of us creates the world when we manifest ourselves by the
way of being born or reborn.
--
Searles O'Dubhain
http://www.summerlands.com
"Athert an Daogdae, 'An cumang arba/gaid-si/, doge/n-sou ule am a/onur.' "
"Then said the Dagda, 'All these powers that you have said that you will
command, I will myself command.'"
Dysgwr dw i <ag...@netcomuk.co.uk> wrote in article
<O6Kn6AAT...@netcomuk.co.uk>...
<snip>
Searles O'Dubhain
cultural values and characteristics that we have studied and admired with a
desire to embracing them. My ancestry is Irish but my people have been
living in the American South for the past 300 years. I guest you could say
that I'm an American of Irish ancestry who admires, studies and embraces
Celtic culture. I'm also certain that one would find a multitude of other
nationalities within my DNA due to the "melting pot" effect here in America
and the length of time that we've been here. I don't claim to be purely
Irish as they are a great melting pot of peoples themselves, though my
Irish teacher did tell me that I would blend right into the population in
Ireland and he is a native. Even Niall of the Nine Hostages had a British
mother :-) Being Celtic is all about culture and not about race, though it
*is* a great deal to do about family and heritage. That is also why we who
would be Celts are attempting to more firmly establish that culture through
family, education and community, both online and on the Land.
"Athert an Daogdae, 'An cumang arba/gaid-si/, doge/n-sou ule am a/onur.' "
"Then said the Dagda, 'All these powers that you have said that you will
command, I will myself command.'"
Dysgwr dw i <ag...@netcomuk.co.uk> wrote in article
<MngmqFA1...@netcomuk.co.uk>...
> In article <O6Kn6AAT...@netcomuk.co.uk>, Dysgwr dw i
> <ag...@netcomuk.co.uk> writes
> >Anyway, the Celts were only one of a small number of invaders
> >to the shores of Britain.
>
> Correction, I meant to say the Celt invaders were small in number and
> only one group of a number of invaders, going by the evidence. However,
> they were culturally dominant for a period, but the same could be said
> for a number of other invaders. Celts, as a race do not exist in the
> British Isles. It is impossible to have a Celtic background in a society
> that is not Celtic.<snip>
OSRIC
I think it was in reply to me which makes it even stranger!!!
OSRIC
>> BTW PJS does my discussion of the nature of Celtic society and modern
>> druidry constitute "atheist Spam"?
>No. I agree with almost everything you said except the "linear" assumption
that the further back in time you go the more contrasting the culture must
be.
Not entirely true of course, Roman culture is more accessible that Saxon but
that is in no small part due to the availabilty of source material. As a
rough generalisation and for the purposes of this argument, it will do.
But the trouble is, all you do is slag people off. I know some people might
say
>that sounds rich coming from me, but really, what are you advocating if it
>isn't atheism.
I'll admit I'm provocative, but most people get a reasoned discussion once
the thread is underway or they decide to email me.
If you look at the general interest of this NG you will see that those
suggesting that they are on the "Druid Path" are in fact following a
mismatch of 19th century based esotericism, a vague identification with
Celtic culture, and an irresistable urge to claim other "sexy" aspects of
ancient cultures such as Stonehenge and other pre-Celtic stuff. If it wasn't
for the fact that the artwork is attractive and the Druids are a nice
mysterious order, interest in Druidry would be minimal.
Having said all this everyone on this NG has one thing in common: a wish to
find some spiritual identity in an ancient, vaguely pantheistic culture.
Nothing wrong with that. But why call yourself a Druid if the tradition
followed owes very little to the Ancient Celts? Give credit where credit is
due. The Beaker people are being decidedly ripped off here!!!!
What do I advocate??? I believe that the spirituality of a people is formed
by the land on which they live and the natural forces present on which they
depend for their survival and also that which they fear. Therefore for me I
am very interested in exploring the cultures of the beaker people, the Celts
, and the Saxons because their cultural and spiritual heritage is all around
me. I can see a hill-fort as I write. I hope to understand, as much as
possible, the unmistakable buzz that is associated with ancient sites.
There's nothing I like better than to go up the hill to the fort and look
down on the Celtic field systems below and allow myself to drift back in
time. None of this is empirical of course, but one thing I'm certain of
though and that is that I would be wasting my time in seeking to
"communicate" with any spirituality through some reinvented Rosicrucian or
Masonic inspired ritual. Better to go down to the County records office and
find out who these people were and what archaeological excavations have been
performed on their settlements. I don't need to formalise it, classify it as
a religion, perform rites or resurrect ancient gods. I am a part of it, as
is my dog and the piece of shit stuck to the bottom of my boot, and it just
IS.
If you wish to honour the Celts then fight to protect that which they
held sacred and oppose development on sensitive land etc. Like it or not, to
be into this sort of thing is an implicit political statement, it is
generally diametrically opposed to contemporary capitalist society. Just try
to go to Stonehenge on 21st June and you'll see what I mean, I've been toe
to toe with riot police over this. The Celts were a warrior culture, not
hippies. Don't just wallow in the excesses of 20th century self-indulgence
and follow the neo-liberal line that we are all entitled to a perfect life
at the expense of the environment, the 3rd world and future generations, and
then soften up the edges with some fluffy-bunny esoteric eco-bollox when all
you are doing is enjoying the fruits of the destruction of that which you
proport to hold sacred. IMHO "personal power" and other New-Age crap is
just an extension of the Cult of the Self that is pervasive in, and reliant
upon, contemporary society.
Finally I would advocate looking into the cultures of the peoples who
lived upon the same land as you wherever you are. Sure explore your
ancestral spirituality, but how can you ignore those whose gods and sacred
places are all around you. I have just come back from spending 5 years in
Australia. There was bugger all point in going out into the bush and looking
for some Celtic spirituality. There are different deities at work there in
the streams and woodlands, the Aboriginals have the key to these. So too in
the US. How can you be into Celtic Spirituality and ignore the gods and
belief systems of the American Indians, a culture far more accessible and
just as rich, not to mention an appealing Shamanic tradition? Perhaps it is
something to do with the fact that if you claimed to be an Indian Shaman
then the real thing may well shit on you from a great hight.
In short I am advocating that people look to the land on which they live
for their spirituality, and if you want clues then look into the cultures of
the people who lived there before you. And if you want to pretend to be a
teen witch, or Gandalf, having got bored of Carlos Casteneda, and become an
ageing guru, then go right ahead, just don't expect me to listen to what
amounts to a trivialising insult to a people close to my heart, and keep my
mouth shut.
This is my 2 cents worth and what I believe in, no more valid than the
next persons beliefs, so don't bother posting a load of crap about how I am
telling you what to believe.
On a more reconciliatory note I would like to say that like all
discussions/arguments, there is no point in discussing anything unless there
is a patch of common ground as a starting point. You won't find me arguing
the toss with a Christian, there is no common ground. For me most people
here, no matter how vociferous my criticism, have at least began a search in
what I reckon is the right place, and all credit to them for it.
OSRIC
>> Having said all this everyone on this NG has one thing in common: a wish
to
>> find some spiritual identity in an ancient, vaguely pantheistic culture.
>-----------------------------------------------------------------
>I've never thought of myself as at all pantheistic.
>-----------------------------------------------------------------
See below
>> If you wish to honour the Celts then fight to protect that which
they
>> held sacred and oppose development on sensitive land etc. Like it or not,
to
>> be into this sort of thing is an implicit political statement, it is
>> generally diametrically opposed to contemporary capitalist society. Just
try
>> to go to Stonehenge on 21st June and you'll see what I mean, I've been
toe
>> to toe with riot police over this.
>-----------------------------------------------------------------
>Ah, right, you're a crusty! I bet that dog you mentioned earlier is kept on
the
>end of piece of string and you wear a Bundeswehr jacket! And that you're a
>vegetarian.
<Chuckles> None of the above! Actually I rattle around on an old Triumph
with the Uffington White Horse sprayed on the tank or a sidecar when the dog
is with me!!! The nearest thing to string is a coathanger holding on various
vital pieces of electrics and the jacket is leather. As to being a
vegetarian there are a lot of rabbits the odd pheasant and the occasional
deer round these parts who would disagree. (Once they have been reincarnted
of course)
>-----------------------------------------------------------------
>> The Celts were a warrior culture, not hippies. Don't just wallow in the
>> excesses of 20th century self-indulgence and follow the neo-liberal line
that
>> we are all entitled to a perfect life at the expense of the environment,
the
>> 3rd world and future generations, and then soften up the edges with some
>> fluffy-bunny esoteric eco-bollox when all you are doing is enjoying the
>> fruits of the destruction of that which you proport to hold sacred. IMHO
>> "personal power" and other New-Age crap is just an extension of the Cult
of
>> the Self that is pervasive in, and reliant upon, contemporary society.
>-----------------------------------------------------------------
>I doubt the ancient Celts had anything like the modern concept of "the
>environment" or "nature" as we do, since they didn't have anything like
modern
>industrial conurbations to contrast it with.
No absolutely not. And I'm sure the Celts would have embraced most of the
destruction of the natural world in order to enhance their standard of
living as we have as is illustrated by their love of wealth. However they
were not in a position to dictate to the natural world and their belief
system, as in many ancient cultures, reflected the need to pacify and be
respectful of the natural world which could at the same time be provider or
killer. My point is not that the Celts were environmentalists, they plainly
weren't, but that their healthy respect for the natural world is of some
practical use today. And this perception is generally part of the
motivation for a lot of peoples interest in Druidry.
I've never been hot on
>environmentalism as part of my belief system, except to the extent that if
>there are no oak or hawthorn trees to be found, certain rituals are
impossible.
>-----------------------------------------------------------------
Well I am surprised. What is the attraction of Celtic and related religions
(other than academic) without some form of pantheistic leanings?
Environmentalism is a loaded term and conjurs up the wrong images and
pantheism is a little strong. Obviously recycling tin cans (apart from being
pissing in the wind and largely a placebo) has no relevance, but surely
Druidic groves, sacred lakes, and what little we know of ritual would
indicate that the natural world if not environmentalism was of great
significance to the Celts?
>> In short I am advocating that people look to the land on which they
live
>> for their spirituality, and if you want clues then look into the cultures
of
>> the people who lived there before you.
>-----------------------------------------------------------------
>This has been said before ... it's rather a can of worms with regard to the
>Americans (who for good or ill, outnumber Europeans on this as on most
other
>groups)
Yes I hesitated to say this, but sod it. Its what I believe even though it
can be unpalatable. I just know who I would be interested in if I lived
there.
It certainly wasn't my intention to imply that it is none of their business
or that residents of Europe have a greater claim to Celtic heritage or any
of that nonsense. I did insert a get out clause when I said that ancestral
spirituality was relevant though ;-)
Unfortunately it seems to me as tho you just have to be there, it is one of
the main reasons why I gave up a very comfortable existence in Australia and
came back here to freeze and be skint.
1 X 2 Willows
I could try now to help you change your mind, but I feel you have evaded my
question and this leaves me uncertain of your views on the subject as well as
the status quo contained. You seem to deny everybody a Celtic background on
the grounds of not being able to live up to the stipulations you define for a
rightful claim on such background.
What are your stipulations? What you believe has never been part of the
question and is certainly not for me to argue about. What I am interested in,
is the line of thought which I cannot comprehend and your conclusion which I
wouldn't subsctbe to.
Dan T. Felber / One next to Willows
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Philosophy is the attempt to catch a black cat in a dark room,
without the cat actually being there at all." - Pablo Cruz
Dysgwr dw i schrieb in Nachricht ...
>In article <73altr$3o1$1...@pacifica.access.ch>, 1 X 2 Willows <dtf-
>ex...@access.ch> writes
>>Excuse me for being hesitant about a longer reply at first, for it is quite
>>common within this NG to see debaters throw in a statement and disappear
>>again. Fortunately, you are fond of debate and I in return would be
interested
>>to read more about *your* interpretation of a 'Celtic background'.
>
>It's simple really, I don't believe anyone has a Celtic background. If
>someone could identify the Celtic values and traditions their Celtic
>heritage has bestowed upon them, I might change my mind. The language
>apart, there is little evidence to day of an extant Celtic culture.
>--
>Adam.
>
PJS
"OSRIC" <Os...@reschs.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> If you look at the general interest of this NG you will see that those
> suggesting that they are on the "Druid Path" are in fact following a
> mismatch of 19th century based esotericism, a vague identification with
> Celtic culture, and an irresistable urge to claim other "sexy" aspects of
> ancient cultures such as Stonehenge and other pre-Celtic stuff. If it wasn't
> for the fact that the artwork is attractive and the Druids are a nice
> mysterious order, interest in Druidry would be minimal.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Yes - I agree wholeheartedly with this, and it winds me up no end when people
do this sort of bit-of-Celtic here, bit-of-Hinduism there, bit-of-Hermeticism
here, bit-of-VonDaniken there kind of pick'n'mix spirituality. Syncretism has
its place, but it's not here.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
> Having said all this everyone on this NG has one thing in common: a wish to
> find some spiritual identity in an ancient, vaguely pantheistic culture.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
I've never thought of myself as at all pantheistic.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
> Nothing wrong with that. But why call yourself a Druid if the tradition
> followed owes very little to the Ancient Celts? Give credit where credit is
> due. The Beaker people are being decidedly ripped off here!!!!
>
> What do I advocate??? I believe that the spirituality of a people is formed
> by the land on which they live and the natural forces present on which they
> depend for their survival and also that which they fear. Therefore for me I
> am very interested in exploring the cultures of the beaker people, the Celts
> , and the Saxons because their cultural and spiritual heritage is all around
> me. I can see a hill-fort as I write. I hope to understand, as much as
> possible, the unmistakable buzz that is associated with ancient sites.
> There's nothing I like better than to go up the hill to the fort and look
> down on the Celtic field systems below and allow myself to drift back in
> time. None of this is empirical of course, but one thing I'm certain of
> though and that is that I would be wasting my time in seeking to
> "communicate" with any spirituality through some reinvented Rosicrucian or
> Masonic inspired ritual. Better to go down to the County records office and
> find out who these people were and what archaeological excavations have been
> performed on their settlements. I don't need to formalise it, classify it as
> a religion, perform rites or resurrect ancient gods. I am a part of it, as
> is my dog and the piece of shit stuck to the bottom of my boot, and it just
> IS.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
I agree more or less here as well. I'm concerned with the gods that are, as
referred to in old Irish writings, the gods in the land. I don't particularly
care to take any genetic tests to find out whether to follow Celtic,
Anglo-Saxon, Norse or Romany spirituality to be in accord with my ancestors.
But given that we have these gods, we can only call them by the names that are
associated with the Celts. We don't know what the Beaker People called them and
the Old English names refer to deities which weren't here very long before they
were absorbed or forgotten. This, incidentally, is why I left the IMBAS list
some time ago; for me 'Celtic' refers to the most recent and accessable stage
of "Paganism" in my country (for the reasons I just gave) and that's why I'm
here, but for them following a Celtic path means following gods and goddesses
that are part of common Indo-European heritage, inextricably tied up with
certain cultural patterns, and so they go to huge lengths to try and squeeze
deities like the Morrighan and Bran into a pantheon with parallels in India and
Greece, even though many plainly don't fit at all.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
> If you wish to honour the Celts then fight to protect that which they
> held sacred and oppose development on sensitive land etc. Like it or not, to
> be into this sort of thing is an implicit political statement, it is
> generally diametrically opposed to contemporary capitalist society. Just try
> to go to Stonehenge on 21st June and you'll see what I mean, I've been toe
> to toe with riot police over this.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Ah, right, you're a crusty! I bet that dog you mentioned earlier is kept on the
end of piece of string and you wear a Bundeswehr jacket! And that you're a
vegetarian.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
> The Celts were a warrior culture, not hippies. Don't just wallow in the
> excesses of 20th century self-indulgence and follow the neo-liberal line that
> we are all entitled to a perfect life at the expense of the environment, the
> 3rd world and future generations, and then soften up the edges with some
> fluffy-bunny esoteric eco-bollox when all you are doing is enjoying the
> fruits of the destruction of that which you proport to hold sacred. IMHO
> "personal power" and other New-Age crap is just an extension of the Cult of
> the Self that is pervasive in, and reliant upon, contemporary society.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
I doubt the ancient Celts had anything like the modern concept of "the
environment" or "nature" as we do, since they didn't have anything like modern
industrial conurbations to contrast it with. I've never been hot on
environmentalism as part of my belief system, except to the extent that if
there are no oak or hawthorn trees to be found, certain rituals are impossible.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
> (snip)
>
> In short I am advocating that people look to the land on which they live
> for their spirituality, and if you want clues then look into the cultures of
> the people who lived there before you.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
This has been said before ... it's rather a can of worms with regard to the
Americans (who for good or ill, outnumber Europeans on this as on most other
groups)
---
Brendan
:>-----------------------------------------------------------------
:I've never thought of myself as at all pantheistic.
:>-----------------------------------------------------------------
Who Is This?:
>> If you wish to honour the Celts then fight to protect that which they
>> held sacred and oppose development on sensitive land etc. Like it or not,
>> to be into this sort of thing is an implicit political statement, it is
>>generally diametrically opposed to contemporary capitalist society.
>>Just try to go to Stonehenge on 21st June and you'll see what I mean, I've
>>been toe to toe with riot police over this.
PJS:
>>-----------------------------------------------------------------
:Ah, right, you're a crusty! I bet that dog you mentioned earlier is kept
:on the end of piece of string and you wear a Bundeswehr jacket! And that
:you're a vegetarian.
Nice caricature, but does rejecting vegetarianism make one 'more true' to our
heritage? I can't see possibly how. Of course, I do not assume that my
"ancestors" were vegetarians, or that being vegetarian makes one 'more
spiritual', ... actually, I can't see how some ancient diet has _any_
relevance on my life... I live in a different area under different times with
different needs.
OSRIC:
> <Chuckles> None of the above! Actually I rattle around on an old Triumph
>with the Uffington White Horse sprayed on the tank or a sidecar when the dog
>is with me!!!
A sight I'd like to see!
PJS
>-----------------------------------------------------------------
:I doubt the ancient Celts had anything like the modern concept of "the
:environment" or "nature" as we do, since they didn't have anything like
:modern industrial conurbations to contrast it with.
I doubt they did, but they had something remotely similar. However, "modern
industrial conurbations" have nothing to do with it, nor does a constrast.
Other cultures have developed into urban groups and still contain no words for
"nature" this concept.
OSRIC:
>No absolutely not. And I'm sure the Celts would have embraced most of the
>destruction of the natural world in order to enhance their standard of
>living as we have as is illustrated by their love of wealth.
I disagree with this. How do you figure "love of wealth" = "embraced
destruction of the natural world"? This is a stretch.
OSRIC:
> However they were not in a position to dictate to the natural world
Of course they were!!! Ecological destruction is nothing new! There are
sources that support the theory that ecological imbalance brought about the
social changes that had marked efects on the megalith building cultures of
Britain. Many still surmise that is was ecological imbalance that destroyed
the Maya, and the need for ecological balance had tremendous influence on the
culture and religions of Japan. This is an old idea, following from some
social darwinistic thought that ecological destruction is natural, in our
nature, and that any group that becomes "advanced" will follow its "instincts"
to the same end we have. In fact, this idea can only exist in a belief system
that embraces the concept of nature.
OSRIC:
> and their belief system, as in many ancient cultures, reflected the need to
>pacify and be respectful of the natural world which could at the same time be
>provider or killer. My point is not that the Celts were environmentalists,
>they plainly weren't, but that their healthy respect for the natural world is
>of some practical use today. And this perception is generally part of
>the motivation for a lot of peoples interest in Druidry.
I agree with this, and though ancient celts were not environmentalists, there
is nothing wrong with us being environmentalists, or even doing so with a
theological base.
PJS:
:I've never been hot on environmentalism as part of my belief system, except
:to the extent that if there are no oak or hawthorn trees to be found, certain
:rituals are impossible.
I hope that this is a joke. What makes an oak or hawthorn sacred? What makes
your rituals sacred? Are you just filling recipes from a book? Add this, stir
and simmer? I think that many aspects of ancient Irish culture can be
described as 'bioregional'. If you're just filling a list to fill your own
self-image, go to Wal-Mart.
OSRIC:
>Well I am surprised. What is the attraction of Celtic and related religions
>(other than academic) without some form of pantheistic leanings?
Sociocultural... finding a place in the world, getting back to the roots,
escaping the meaninglessness of modernism, rejecting the abuses of facist
interpretations of religion,... lots of reasons, but I agree, for many,
pantheism is a part of it.
OSRIC:
>Environmentalism is a loaded term and conjurs up the wrong images and
>pantheism is a little strong. Obviously recycling tin cans (apart from being
>pissing in the wind and largely a placebo) has no relevance, but surely
>Druidic groves, sacred lakes, and what little we know of ritual would
>indicate that the natural world if not environmentalism was of great
>significance to the Celts?
I agree. There is a difference between "saving the world" and
'ecological/systems thinking', and I think the bioregional ethic of the celts
fits the number two bill. Quite frankly, I can see little relevance of
"druidism" to postmodernity _without_ drawing on our ecological tradition as
an exegetical tool.
Who Is This?:
>> In short I am advocating that people look to the land on which they live
>> for their spirituality, and if you want clues then look into the cultures of
>> the people who lived there before you.
I can agree with this, but then again, I'm not a druid.
PJS:
>-----------------------------------------------------------------
>This has been said before ... it's rather a can of worms with regard to the
>Americans (who for good or ill, outnumber Europeans on this as on most
>other groups)
Why is this such a "can of worms"? I don't understand your meaning...
OSRIC:
>Yes I hesitated to say this, but sod it. Its what I believe even though it
>can be unpalatable. I just know who I would be interested in if I lived
>there.
OK, Osric, you get it... what is the can of worms?
OSRIC:
>It certainly wasn't my intention to imply that it is none of their business
>or that residents of Europe have a greater claim to Celtic heritage or any
>of that nonsense. I did insert a get out clause when I said that ancestral
>spirituality was relevant though ;-)
I agree with this, but there is (IMHO) a great danger in the approach to
indigenous spiritualities here, a culturally genocidal precedent and, frankly,
I wouldn't trust half the people I know interested in celtic spiritualities to
handle these cultures with anything but a nihilistic, consumeristic,
self-serving arrogance [much the same way they approach celtic culture ;-) ].
Also, I admit and am deeply grateful for the NA gifts given to my life, I have
more cultural connection with my European ancestors. The blend and development
of this is what makes me American.
OSRIC:
>Unfortunately it seems to me as tho you just have to be there, it is one of
>the main reasons why I gave up a very comfortable existence in Australia and
>came back here to freeze and be skint.
What do you mean?
> OSRIC
Brendan
Elaine Stutt
Dysgwr dw i (ag...@netcomuk.co.uk) writes:
> It's simple really, I don't believe anyone has a Celtic background. If
> someone could identify the Celtic values and traditions their Celtic
> heritage has bestowed upon them, I might change my mind. The language
> apart, there is little evidence to day of an extant Celtic culture.
> Adam.
Tried to post something on this thread last night but I came to the end
of my hour on the freenet, think I must have e-mailed it some where as it's
not here.
As to this precise question, I have no answer. My heritage is mixed
Celtic/Germanic and all my eight great-grand parent were born in the
U.S. Some of my ancestors can be traced back to the 1600's in an exotic
eastern country called New England.
This thread brings up all sorts of things. No-one has an ancient
celtic background that's true. Most modern cultures are diluted and
mixed but I'm not about to tell someone living in one of the modern
celtic nations that they can't call themselves Celts. But does a
pan-celtic culture exist ?
I had a friend working in a minor public service job who got very
chagrined and frustrated when she was continualy being told off by
one young Indian for using the wrong term. Native American doesn't
work in Canada and the rest of the terms don't work for every age
group. I've noticed since then that more and more the tribal names
are being used. Which makes sense because a lot of the factoids
about Indian culture or religion only apply to one tribe or region.
Similarly, if a Welsh person had an Irish-American greet him
as a brother Celt, I could understand if he suspected that the
newcomer knew nothing about his culture. But, I can also understand
a person of mixed Celtic heritage, calling himself Celtic instead
of detailing his background. I don't know that s.c.i. is a good
referance for anything but if you want to see Irish and Irish-Americans
in some nasty little flame fests go to soc.culture.irish. Not all
people living in Celtic nations think that being Celtic is simply
cultural. I do think that anyone can adopt a culture but it's a lot
of work.
In the twentieth century there have been great movements in technology
and culture, also great migrations. Now the buzz word is globalization.
So it makes sense that people are going to great effort to regain lost
heritages. The pagan/neo-pagan movement is part of that. But anytime
a culture is on the move, you can't really tell where it's going. Will
this result in a revival of the Celtic cultures and the developement of
a pan-Celtic culture or will the Celtic languages go extinct and just
a few Celtic cultural icons remain to decorate a bland universal culture ?
I think if you want to identify yourself as a Celtic, you have to work to
strengthen the cultures, not accidently contribute to their blandification.
Back to "does Celtic culture exist anywhere?". I don't think that
the Catholic Church and later the Protestant churches can be credited
with wiping out Celtic culture. It seems the fashion in pagan groups
to assume that Christianity is all-evil and in the past was all-powerful
Sure, the various Celtic peoples didn't fare as well as others but the
cultures still exist. And, as I said before, find a developed country
without a mixed culture. Many cultures have had mixing all throughout
their history.
Elaine, who is rapidly finding a fondness for the word "cletic"
cu...@freenet.carleton.ca
Brendan
>Dysgwr dw i (ag...@netcomuk.co.uk) writes:
>> It's simple really, I don't believe anyone has a Celtic background. If
>> someone could identify the Celtic values and traditions their Celtic
>> heritage has bestowed upon them, I might change my mind. The language
>> apart, there is little evidence to day of an extant Celtic culture.
>> Adam.
>> Adam.
Elaine Stutt:
>As to this precise question, I have no answer. My heritage is mixed
>Celtic/Germanic
Ditto
Elaine Stutt:
>This thread brings up all sorts of things. No-one has an ancient
>celtic background that's true. Most modern cultures are diluted and
>mixed but I'm not about to tell someone living in one of the modern
>celtic nations that they can't call themselves Celts. But does a
>pan-celtic culture exist ?
True, but I'm not sure that I would even use a metaphor of "dilution" to
describe the state of celtic cultures today (or any culture for that matter).
I like the challenge tp the notion of a pan-celtic culture. What is it that
people are referring to when they use the name "celt"? I seem to pick up "Iron
Age Irish, with a mix of Scottish folkculture, Caesar's Gauls, and modern
Irishisms".
>I had a friend working in a minor public service job who got very
>chagrined and frustrated when she was continualy being told off by
>one young Indian for using the wrong term. Native American doesn't
>work in Canada and the rest of the terms don't work for every age
>group. I've noticed since then that more and more the tribal names
>are being used. Which makes sense because a lot of the factoids
>about Indian culture or religion only apply to one tribe or region.
Elaine Stutt:
>Similarly, if a Welsh person had an Irish-American greet him
>as a brother Celt, I could understand if he suspected that the
>newcomer knew nothing about his culture. But, I can also understand
>a person of mixed Celtic heritage, calling himself Celtic instead
>of detailing his background.
Elaine, here is my heresy: I think that it is important to recognize "celtic"
hybrids within American subcultures, not just the "Big Six". I had an usual
experience a few years ago... in the midst of a study of agricultural life in
modern and pre-modern Ireland, I took a drive down to the river (Ohio). I was
amazed to see some of the stonework walls looked exactly like a regional
variety in Ireland... folkculture is conservative on the one hand, and will
breed with anything on the other. Last year, I went to the same area to a
"Tobacco Festival" (yep, loads o' fun) which hosted a regional clogging
contest. Now not all of the cloggers were of Irish descent *, nor was all the
music traditional, but I would say that all were heirs to a celtic heritage.
(*my girlfriend was a clogger in her childhood and she is African-American)
Elaine Stutt:
> I do think that anyone can adopt a culture but it's a lot of work.
Cultures grow and develop; they must be nurtured. Don't forget the diaspora.
Elaine Stutt:
>I think if you want to identify yourself as a Celtic, you have to work to
>strengthen the cultures, not accidently contribute to their blandification.
Absolutely
Elaine Stutt:
>Back to "does Celtic culture exist anywhere?". I don't think that
>the Catholic Church and later the Protestant churches can be credited
>with wiping out Celtic culture.
No, they simply adapted Christianity and absorbed it in a culturally
significant way.
Elaine Stutt:
> It seems the fashion in pagan groups to assume that Christianity is
>all-evil and in the past was all-powerful.
It's not all-evil? hmmm..
Elaine Stutt:
> Sure, the various Celtic peoples didn't fare as well as others but the
>cultures still exist. And, as I said before, find a developed country
>without a mixed culture. Many cultures have had mixing all throughout their
>history.
Thank you for your post.
Brendan
ISAIE
ISAIE
Well, if most of you firmly believe that druidry is their path, why not
follow it and stop talking about it. You know, you achieve much more by
acting rather than by talking. Thinking is good, and sometimes you really
should act rather than talk. And if you trip, then you learn. Druidry and
all of these post-pagan pseudo-religions are not about ancestors or the land
you are on, it's about becoming the sum of all that you can ever be. It is
being the willpower needed to overcome the impossible. It is being
Self-disciplined, undergoing a thousand days and nights of deprivation to
achieve your goals, being hardest upon yourselves in achieving self- mastery
comprehension. It is being the self-discipline it requires to overcome
failure for a thousandth time and once more attempt the challenge, living in
a self-imposed world of self-discipline in order to achieve the ultimate
state of being. Moreover, it is Patience. Being the patience required while
acquiring self-mastery, the patience needed when building dreams of success.
YOU should be the only one believing that you are what you want to call a
druid to be one, and no-one else should believe in you. Druids are Pillars
of Strength. They are the rock that will not be moved as the waves of strife
come crashing over. They are the strength required to achieve success in
life. They are Pillars of Strength.
They are Free of Self-limitations. They are not bound by the chains of
limited thinking. Their emotions do not master their lives. They are the
master of their emotions. They are the
calm, silent, and steady soul of the night. A Druid is Freedom.
A Druid (hum...that is, what you all want to call this so-called
state-of-being) is Deep Silence. They are like the silence that follows the
storm. They are knowledge discovered through intuition, meditation, and
reflection. They are the never ending cycle of Nature. A Druid is Nature.
A Druid is Life. They are passionate for their love of Life in all its
aspects. They are adventurous and courageous loving the challenge of Life.
Yet they are practical, cautious and responsible with Life. For them, Life
should be faced with daring, boldness, and
energy. They loathe restriction and love the freedom found in Life. They
are the Artisans of Life.
They are the creative force in the way they create new life. They are the
preservative force holding the world in perfect balance.
Pourquoi tant de chahut? Pourquoi tant de pretention?
Do not see here any rules, orders or even joke. just read and think. I am
not here to challenge.
Ah, life, life, life...
Isaie
Searles O'Dubhain
that exists in your embracing "...all that you can be..." and yet you have
attempted to exclude the Land and ancestors from *all that is*. This
ignores and profanes two very important parts of being. There is a
certain irony also to be found in stating your beliefs on a news group (a
place designed for communication and discussion), while admonishing others
for doing the same sorts of things in regard to their own practice and
belief of Drai/ocht (Druidry). Many here practice their Druid ways beyond
the present arena of discussion and internet postings. Having such
discussions is an important step to a better understanding that there are
many worlds beyond the limits of brain cases or the walls of restrictive
thinking.
The light that comes in the darkness and the voice that is heard beyond the
silence are two of the great rewards of a life of dedication and discipline
in devotion and meditation. Becoming a natural creature rather than a
manufacture product of a particular culture is a form of being twice born.
Isn't that really who we are in a long series of awakenings and sleeping?
--
Searles O'Dubhain
http://www.summerlands.com
"Athert an Daogdae, 'An cumang arba/gaid-si/, doge/n-sou ule am a/onur.' "
"Then said the Dagda, 'All these powers that you have said that you will
command, I will myself command.'"
ISAIE <aw...@conncoll.edu> wrote in article
<73e52k$6do$1...@news1.skynet.be>...
> Pourquoi tout ce chahut ? Pourquoi toute cette pretention?
>
> Well, if most of you firmly believe that druidry is their path, why not
> follow it and stop talking about it. You know, you achieve much more by
> acting rather than by talking. Thinking is good, and sometimes you really
> should act rather than talk. And if you trip, then you learn. Druidry and
> all of these post-pagan pseudo-religions are not about ancestors or the
land
> you are on, it's about <snip of some very workable philosophy>
Macha 9
>
> In short I am advocating that people look to the land on which they live
> for their spirituality, and if you want clues then look into the cultures of
> the people who lived there before you.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
This has been said before ... it's rather a can of worms with regard to the
Americans (who for good or ill, outnumber Europeans on this as on most other
groups)
well, then, what would you say to someone who has lived in england, scotland,
and the u.s. and is 2nd generation scottish-american? what land and what people
should i look to?
lisa
ISAIE
OOps, I forgot I let my mind rambling in a lost world, sorry.
I just don't get it that's all. Talking is great. Exchanging ideas and
arguing is more than wonderful. And I too am doing the same thing, am I not?
What troubles me is this: in the end, who is the sage? The self-taught Druid
in his forest, or the little pretenders we are, always chatting about every
dilema we are facing...
Life is short, so try to live it for yourself, and not talking it for
others. And hey, I'm in the same saucepan as you are...
Searles O'Dubhain
things that we have actually done in terms of practice, study and spiritual
experience. Otherwise, we are all talk and only an illusion in a world
within illusions. It's the difference between thinking and knowing or
wishing and doing. Life is either real or and illusion or it is not :-)
This means that it is never only one thing unless that is an act of
creation or destruction. Here again, the words do no justice to the glory
of the experiences.
"Athert an Daogdae, 'An cumang arba/gaid-si/, doge/n-sou ule am a/onur.' "
"Then said the Dagda, 'All these powers that you have said that you will
command, I will myself command.'"
ISAIE <aw...@conncoll.edu> wrote in article
<73eqnp$8kd$1...@news0.skynet.be>...
<snip>
Brendan
Brendan:
:> Nice caricature, but does rejecting vegetarianism make one 'more true' to
:>our heritage? I can't see possibly how. Of course, I do not assume that my
:> "ancestors" were vegetarians, or that being vegetarian makes one 'more
:> spiritual', ... actually, I can't see how some ancient diet has _any_
:> relevance on my life... I live in a different area under different times
:> with different needs.
PJS:
>It's not relevant. I was just winding him up (or "pulling his chain" as I
>believe you say over the "pond".
OSRIC:
-> and their belief system, as in many ancient cultures, reflected the need
->to pacify and be respectful of the natural world which could at the same
->time be provider or killer. My point is not that the Celts were
->environmentalists, they plainly weren't, but that their healthy respect
->for the natural world is of some practical use today. And this perception
->is generally part of the motivation for a lot of peoples interest in
->Druidry.
Brendan
:> I agree with this, and though ancient celts were not environmentalists,
:>there is nothing wrong with us being environmentalists, or even doing so
:>with a theological base.
PJS:
>There's a big gap between the two that must be filled somehow, though, if
>you're going down the Reconstructionist route. Not that you are.
What is the "big gap" and why does it pose such a problem? I think that one
cannot ignore the light of modern knowledge when seeking to interpret the
past. It would be like trying to forget that ergot creates toxins with
psychotropic qualities when studying Hellenistic mystery cults: of course,
_they_ didn't understand the pharmacological implications of their ritual, but
such an understanding can aid in our understanding of what happened. Likewise,
it is silly to try to forget the contributions of ecological thinking to our
understanding of the world when approaching the past. Also, with reference to
your "Reconstructionist" reference... deconstruction comes before
reconstruction... so, in a sense, I'm more in a process of deconstruction than
"going down the Reconstructionist route". Just think of me as your resident
postmodern "conscience", trying to "keep it real".
>> PJS:
>> :I've never been hot on environmentalism as part of my belief system, except
>> :to the extent that if there are no oak or hawthorn trees to be found,
>> certain
>> :rituals are impossible.
Brendan:
:> I hope that this is a joke. What makes an oak or hawthorn sacred? What
:>makes your rituals sacred? Are you just filling recipes from a book? Add
:>this, stir and simmer? I think that many aspects of ancient Irish culture
:>can be described as 'bioregional'. If you're just filling a list to fill
:>your own self-image, go to Wal-Mart.
PJS:
>So you don't know what can of worms and skint mean,
Actually, I do know what "can of worms" and "skint" mean; I was just fuzzy
what "can of worms" Osric was referring to... I assume one that implies that
First Nations spiritualties are more relevant to Americans than indigenous
European spiritualities, seeing as how we would be connecting to THIS land as
opposed to THAT land. If this is the "can of worms" in question, I would
really like to hear your position (and reasons) on this question. I think that
it is a very relevant topic.
PJS:
> and I don't know what Wal-Mart is, except to suppose that it's some kind of
>shop.... ... I don't follow this self-image line of reasoning at all; it
>seems people are just throwing the phrase in a meaninglessly derogatory sense.
Wal-Mart is the King of supermarkets... lots o' stuff really really cheap (and
usually made in some Third World sweatshop or prison labor). What I mean by
"self-image" spirituality is one which someone else has referred to as "self
worship" though using the bits and pieces of living spiritualities in a pick
and choose way, as if one were shopping and had found the sweater that gives
life meaning. It is an inherently consumeristic approach to meaning, implying
as a result that nothing means anything... just what serves our need for
meaning and identity. IMHO, this is a rampant problem in this country. As I
used it, I was hoping that you weren't taking a nihilistic stand with regard
to the sacred.
PJS:
> I didn't say that oak or hawthorn are sacred, but they do hold a
>certain significance. Now we're back to the can of worms thing, since you
>over there can't have the same trees and wildlife mentioned in Irish or Welsh
>sources.
I can't see how you can say that oak and hawthorn _aren't_ sacred. The
position I am taking is that sacred objects or entities are intrinsically
sacred, aside from my ritual recognition of such. As far as the "can of worms"
here, I'm with you. I think that it is silly when I hear people invoke the
"sacred land of Ireland" or some such thing. I'm not denying that Ireland (or
any other "celtic" favorite... you know, with the recent influx of Cornish
druids) is sacred. I _am_ saying that it is silly to act like an orphan in
exile, not seeing the sacredness of the land beneath your feet. Look at the
precedents, folks: when the Milesians landed, they didn't invoke some other
land. And when Irish moved to settle Scotland, they didn't invoke Ireland...
they divided the earth beneath their feet in the sacred custom. So, I'm with
you on that. On the othe hand, I do not think that it is appropriate to use
the traditions of the First Nations here... they have ahd their influence on
local culture and that of the US as a whole. But, I think that (as with celtic
spirituality) the spiritualities of the First Nations are built on community
ties forged through kinship links between each other and the land; inother
words, unlike modern creedal religions, native religions cannot be separated
from the culture "for export"... it is not something you "believe in".
Therefore, I think the most sincere approach for me is to draw from the
traditions which created me, to dig deep and meet life in a sacred manner (for
me, a manner 'in tune' with my ancestors). I would really like to hear your
opinion on the problem of Americans and cultural traditions.
Brendan
C. Leigh MagFhionghaile
> There is a
>certain irony also to be found in stating your beliefs on a news group (a
>place designed for communication and discussion), while admonishing others
>for doing the same sorts of things in regard to their own practice and
>belief of Drai/ocht (Druidry).
You know, I was thinking that very thing myself. :-)
The Topaz Owl
OSRIC
>well, then, what would you say to someone who has lived in england,
scotland,
>and the u.s. and is 2nd generation scottish-american? what land and what
people
>should i look to?
>
>lisa
Wherever you are standing.
OSRIC
PJS
<mata_b...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Nice caricature, but does rejecting vegetarianism make one 'more true' to our
> heritage? I can't see possibly how. Of course, I do not assume that my
> "ancestors" were vegetarians, or that being vegetarian makes one 'more
> spiritual', ... actually, I can't see how some ancient diet has _any_
> relevance on my life... I live in a different area under different times with
> different needs.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
It's not relevant. I was just winding him up (or "pulling his chain" as I
believe you say over the "pond".
-----------------------------------------------------------------
>
> OSRIC:
> > and their belief system, as in many ancient cultures, reflected the need to
> >pacify and be respectful of the natural world which could at the same time
> be
> >provider or killer. My point is not that the Celts were environmentalists,
> >they plainly weren't, but that their healthy respect for the natural world
> is
> >of some practical use today. And this perception is generally part of
> >the motivation for a lot of peoples interest in Druidry.
>
> I agree with this, and though ancient celts were not environmentalists, there
> is nothing wrong with us being environmentalists, or even doing so with a
> theological base.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
There's a big gap between the two that must be filled somehow, though, if
you're going down the Reconstructionist route. Not that you are.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
>
> PJS:
> :I've never been hot on environmentalism as part of my belief system, except
> :to the extent that if there are no oak or hawthorn trees to be found,
> certain
> :rituals are impossible.
>
> I hope that this is a joke. What makes an oak or hawthorn sacred? What makes
> your rituals sacred? Are you just filling recipes from a book? Add this, stir
> and simmer? I think that many aspects of ancient Irish culture can be
> described as 'bioregional'. If you're just filling a list to fill your own
> self-image, go to Wal-Mart.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
So you don't know what can of worms and skint mean, and I don't know what
Wal-Mart is, except to suppose that it's some kind of shop. I didn't say that
oak or hawthorn are sacred, but they do hold a certain significance. Now we're
back to the can of worms thing, since you over there can't have the same trees
and wildlife mentioned in Irish or Welsh sources. I don't follow this
self-image line of reasoning at all; it seems people are just throwing the
phrase in a meaninglessly derogatory sense.
---
PJS
Macha 9 <mac...@aol.com> wrote:
> (snip)
> >
> > In short I am advocating that people look to the land on which they live
> > for their spirituality, and if you want clues then look into the cultures of
> > the people who lived there before you.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> This has been said before ... it's rather a can of worms with regard to the
> Americans (who for good or ill, outnumber Europeans on this as on most other
> groups)
>
>
> well, then, what would you say to someone who has lived in england, scotland,
> and the u.s. and is 2nd generation scottish-american?
>
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"Hello, 2nd generation Scottish-American person who has lived in England,
Scotland and the US"
PJS
<aw...@conncoll.edu> wrote:
> Druidry and
> all of these post-pagan pseudo-religions are not about ancestors or the land
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Well, as the saying goes, speak of the Devil and he doth surely appear ...
isn't this just exactly the sort of self-centred (to the tune of six "selfs" in
one paragraph) do-as-you-please consumer society New Age pseudo-Pagan that
Osric was talking about? No land, no ancestors, no roots, just me-me-me (or
moi-moi-moi, possibly) and away with anything that stands in the way of the
ego-massage of spiritual hedonism which is the whole New Age phenomenon; a way
of reassuring shallow and disrespectful yuppies that they are in fact deeply
spiritual people.
1 X 2 Willows
>In article <73e44q$5q1$1...@pacifica.access.ch>, 1 X 2 Willows <dtf-
>ex...@access.ch> writes
>[....]
>I am stating my belief that a Celtic culture does not exist apart
>from the language on the fringes.
>[....]
>I have asked on numerous occasions for someone to identify and describe the
>'Celtic' culture that has been bestowed upon them by their heritage.
Let me try this, then...
Just a couple of days ago, the people of my area celebrated the so called
'Gansabhauet', a social event surrounded by music, feasting and other
side-attractions, taking place in an official frame and line of single events
of national heritage of the 'Helvetii', focusing on a main arena at the town
square, where an applicant dressed in a centuries old (maybe they re-did it at
some point in history due to disintegration) costume and wearing a historical
'sun' mask (maybe they re-did due to...) tries to decapitate a dead goose
(hanging from a line) in just *one* stroke with a dull, historical sword
(maybe they...).
However - of course - the Christian church declared this day a christian
holiday as well - like all the others of that kind - and called it 'Martini
Day' :-) (they must not have been good at foreseeing the development of an
international liquor industry then).
This is just an analogy of the event without any reference to its origin and
meaning (which I could supply upon request), but you will agree that this
could hardly have originated from - or would be referring to - anything
associated with a Christian outlook on life...
It is just one manifestation of an unbroken spirit to uphold our Celtic
traditions, regardless of the world (even within the borders of our nation)
changing and adapting to new situations of politics, repressive belief
systems, wealth and power.
Now would you say, that this example proves nothing but the existence of some
weird people's habit within an overall declared and accepted 'Christian'
Nation?.
I call it a live example and proof of a Celtic background floating just below
the camouflaging surface of a different, new 'national identity', which saves
the old from continuing political attacks from all those who'd really like to
see these things dead for good - for the sake of their own control,power and
wealth.
Is this a description of the kind you were asking for? I could throw in two
hands full of other samples without doing research first, but I'm afraid some
people would lop my head off for doing it - with a dull sword no less :-)
Sla/n
1 X 2 Willows
Dan
PJS schrieb in Nachricht ...
Cat...@my-dejanews.com
P...@winwaed.demon.co.uk (PJS) wrote:
> On 23/11/98 09:58, in message <73c922$o3k$1...@newsreader1.core.theplanet.net>,
> "OSRIC" <Os...@reschs.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
Osric and PJS,
>
> > If you look at the general interest of this NG you will see that those
> > suggesting that they are on the "Druid Path" are in fact following a
> > mismatch of 19th century based esotericism, a vague identification with
> > Celtic culture, and an irresistable urge to claim other "sexy" aspects of
> > ancient cultures such as Stonehenge and other pre-Celtic stuff. If it wasn't
> > for the fact that the artwork is attractive and the Druids are a nice
> > mysterious order, interest in Druidry would be minimal.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> Yes - I agree wholeheartedly with this, and it winds me up no end when people
> do this sort of bit-of-Celtic here, bit-of-Hinduism there, bit-of-Hermeticism
> here, bit-of-VonDaniken there kind of pick'n'mix spirituality. Syncretism has
> its place, but it's not here.
I just can't believe that there are others here that actually feel as I do!
All this trend towards the ecclectic to me is genocide to the various cultures
that these people claim to preserve and protect. Why they cannot see this is
beyond me! BTW, glad to meet you two!
>
> > In short I am advocating that people look to the land on which they live
> > for their spirituality, and if you want clues then look into the cultures of
> > the people who lived there before you.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> This has been said before ... it's rather a can of worms with regard to the
> Americans (who for good or ill, outnumber Europeans on this as on most other
> groups)
This last, was the only problem I had with the entire post and here's why. I
am what I am, and that is mostly Scottish, I am not Christian, and I am not
red enough by Cherokee standards to be taken under serious consideration by
the tribe (I have no leanings in that direction either). My serious spiritual
and political leanings have always been towards my Scottish/Irish ancestry. I
understand what Osric is advocating 'spiritually', yes I do think that I
should seek to always realize the spirits of the land I am dwelling in and
seek to pay them due respect, but when it comes right down to truth, I am a
Gael, the ancestors are in my blood 'literally', I know what I feel when I
hear the tales or see the lands of Eire and Alba and it's a mix of longing,
homesickness and anger that fills my senses each and every time. I know what
I feel when I hold my genealogies in my hands, or even when I hear a reel or
a jig and it raises goose pimples all over my body. I want to go back and
fight for what my family left in the late 1800's, and I do the best I can by
supporting my choice of political parties in both countries monetarily as
well as by word and deed.
I know that most here will not understand, and I mean this country no
disrespect, but I feel no connection, nor do I feel any urge whatsoever to
support this country politically any longer. My heart is elsewhere, as are my
aspirations. This country has chosen to defame and defile all that should be
held sacred, they fight for nothing if only to show their brute force, they
spend literally billions each year on other countries, while their own
citizens die in the streets from lack of proper health care and starvation
and they are trying to melt this society of mixed cultural backgrounds into a
unified society with no sense of culture or history, in essence a pound puppy
society, with all their 'political correctness'. I used to love that this
country was based on the idealism of freedom and peace, but we've become war
mongers without a cause and certainly could care less for our veterans who
have given everything they have for this country out of patriotism, and our
old.... that's one that really bites me right in the seat, our old who should
be our most treasured asset with their knowledge and the gifts already given
to benefit all of society, live in sqaulor under a government that could care
less whether they have care be it medical or otherwise. Case and point, if
not for her friends (the lady has no family left), a 98 year old lady here,
would have been forced to go either without medicine or food last month, due
to the governments lack of care in this blessed country. How is that for
caring for your citizens? What is there to find honorable in that?
All in all, this last paragraph has nothing to do with my choice in
spirituality, my choices were made well over 15 years ago. I am thankful that
I found something of a history to pass on to my children, I am thankful that
I found anything at all that I could believe in. The Gods care for me well, I
can see their hand in my life quite clearly. I thank my ancestors for what
lies in my blood, strength, perseverance, will and a strong sense of
responsibility. I'll not be turning my back on that precious gift of them and
their sacrifices for our homelands overall, merely because my family chose to
leave that soil. I could not respect myself ever again if shrugged off my
responsibility to carry their lineage forward and make their presence known.
I hope this makes clear to you Osric, that some of us are not lesser Gaels,
simply because we no longer reside there. I love your land, I love my
ancestors, and in essence, I love the modern Gaels for simply being Gaels, I
do not take lightly what is suffered by all of you every waking hour. I can't
offer much to help, but I will continue to offer what I have.
>
> ---
> No matter where you go in the World, there you are.
As for the sig PJS... *exactly*<G> I'm still me, no matter where I go.
Best Regards
Tay
>
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
1 X 2 Willows
out 'who' and 'by saying what'...
Dan T. Felber / One next to Willows
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
OSRIC schrieb in Nachricht <73fdid$qi5$2...@newsreader2.core.theplanet.net>...
> Quod Erat Demonstrandum.
Behomet
Behomet
Brendan wrote in message ...
@one.net.au DReDD
--
"anti spam" remove spaces in my address to email me
"Man is part of nature, not apart from nature"
ICQ:16544782
ISAIE wrote in message <73e52k$6do$1...@news1.skynet.be>...
>Pourquoi tout ce chahut ? Pourquoi toute cette pretention?
>
>Well, if most of you firmly believe that druidry is their path, why not
>follow it and stop talking about it.
<< all the good stuff cut >>
OSRIC
ISAIE
non sum nocens. Sapientis est explicare. Est tuum videre. Vero nullius
animi, nullius consilii fui. Magno est documento homines scire...quod
rebellis. Male recondo?
Aymeric.
OSRIC wrote in message <73fdid$qi5$2...@newsreader2.core.theplanet.net>...
> Quod Erat Demonstrandum.
>
>
ISAIE
newsgroup. Impressed! I never said I believed in what I posted, I maybe did
not even write it. So please stop all your Damien/Satan/Diablo crap. Hope no
hurt was done. I'm here to learn, just as you all are. And I've just learned
one more thing: there actually are some reasonable people.
You shall dream dreams...Live.
Aymeric.
1 X 2 Willows
>Read the thread.
>
I usually include the reference, because I do not expect anybody on Earth to
get the identical thread delivered that I get through:
"news.access.ch!ubnnews.unisource.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news-nyc.telia.ne
t!news-feed1.eu.concert.net!btnet-peer!btnet!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplan
et.net!not-for-mail"
In my experience, they do vary in completeness.
1 X 2 Willows
>In article <73ff20$2ae$1...@pacifica.access.ch>, 1 X 2 Willows <dtf-
>No. Never mind though, I enjoyed the chat. See you.
>--
>Adam.
My pleasure...
Me g'seet seech
Dan
PJS
<mata_b...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> PJS:
> >There's a big gap between the two that must be filled somehow, though, if
> >you're going down the Reconstructionist route. Not that you are.
>
> What is the "big gap" and why does it pose such a problem? I think that one
> cannot ignore the light of modern knowledge when seeking to interpret the
> past. It would be like trying to forget that ergot creates toxins with
> psychotropic qualities when studying Hellenistic mystery cults: of course,
> _they_ didn't understand the pharmacological implications of their ritual,
> but such an understanding can aid in our understanding of what happened.
> Likewise, it is silly to try to forget the contributions of ecological
> thinking to our understanding of the world when approaching the past. Also,
> with reference to your "Reconstructionist" reference... deconstruction comes
> before reconstruction... so, in a sense, I'm more in a process of
> deconstruction than "going down the Reconstructionist route". Just think of
> me as your resident postmodern "conscience", trying to "keep it real".
>
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Deconstructivist Marxism states that truth is capable of truth, but only if
reality is equal to culture; otherwise, we can assume that expression comes
from communication. It could be said that the characteristic theme of the works
of Rushdie is the bridge between sexual identity and class. Brophy holds that
we have to choose between materialist rationalism and social realism.
Baudrillard uses the term 'social realism' to denote a capitalist paradox. But
Marx's critique of postconstructivist desublimation implies that society has
significance. The main theme of Fielding's analysis of materialist rationalism
is the praxis, and eventually the nothingness, of dialectic consciousness.
In the works of Rushdie, a predominant concept is the distinction between
within and without. If social realism holds, we have to choose between
materialist rationalism and the dialectic paradigm of narrative. Many
constructions concerning postconstructivist desublimation exist.
If one examines neocultural discourse, one is faced with a choice: either
reject social realism or conclude that the raison d'etre of the writer is
significant form. But the subject is interpolated into a materialist
rationalism that includes sexuality as a whole. Debord promotes the use of
postconstructivist desublimation to attack sexism.
In a sense, the premise of postconstructivist desublimation suggests that the
task of the poet is social comment. However, Derrida promotes the use of
materialist rationalism to deconstruct outmoded, sexist perceptions of sexual
identity. An abundance of theories concerning not narrative, but prenarrative
exist. Therefore, the example of posttextual situationism depicted in Satanic
Verses is also evident in Malraux, La Condition Humaine. The subject is
interpolated into a postconstructivist desublimation that includes narrativity
as a whole.
PJS
> ... As far as the "can of worms"
> here, I'm with you. I think that it is silly when I hear people invoke the
> "sacred land of Ireland" or some such thing. I'm not denying that Ireland (or
> any other "celtic" favorite... you know, with the recent influx of Cornish
> druids) is sacred. I _am_ saying that it is silly to act like an orphan in
> exile, not seeing the sacredness of the land beneath your feet. Look at the
> precedents, folks: when the Milesians landed, they didn't invoke some other
> land. And when Irish moved to settle Scotland, they didn't invoke Ireland...
> they divided the earth beneath their feet in the sacred custom. So, I'm with
> you on that. On the othe hand, I do not think that it is appropriate to use
> the traditions of the First Nations here... they have ahd their influence on
> local culture and that of the US as a whole. But, I think that (as with
> celtic spirituality) the spiritualities of the First Nations are built on
> community ties forged through kinship links between each other and the land;
> inother words, unlike modern creedal religions, native religions cannot be
> separated from the culture "for export"... it is not something you "believe
> in". Therefore, I think the most sincere approach for me is to draw from the
> traditions which created me, to dig deep and meet life in a sacred manner
> (for me, a manner 'in tune' with my ancestors). I would really like to hear
> your opinion on the problem of Americans and cultural traditions.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
The whole thing is "attacked" from a different angle according to where you
live. As far as I am concerned, I live on the island of Britain. Given that I
do not adhere to a revealed religion and am not an atheist either, I can't see
that I have any choice but to take the Celtic "route". Except that the stars
had great significance for them and how they buried their dead, we don't know
anything about the pre-Celtic "Beaker People", and the gods of the Angles,
Saxons and Jutes, and then the Norsemen didn't leave much of an impression. The
pagan traditions of this country are Celtic, whatever that may be said to mean
simply because that was their most recent coherent form (though Witches/Wiccans
may take exception to such an assertion, I suppose) After the Celts, paganism
was in a slow decline. You have to call the gods and goddesses something, after
all, and the Celtic forms are all we have, so in the end it does no good to
argue about whether Brighid/Brigantia originated with P-Celts, Q-Celts, Beaker
People or long barrow builders. Various layers of belief blended into each
other to form a "Celtic" religion. For Americans of Celtic descent, it's all
different. There was nothing like this; Celts among others, already Christian
for centuries, arrived and replaced a native culture with their own, taking
from it next to nothing and leaving a stark choice for (non-native) American
pagans between trying, probably vainly, to adopt the customs of an earlier
people who are often insulted even by the attempt, or look back to Europe for
what their ancestors did in another time and place, and which must sometimes
seem not very appropriate.
Cat...@my-dejanews.com
> The whole thing is "attacked" from a different angle according to where you
> live. As far as I am concerned, I live on the island of Britain. Given that I
> do not adhere to a revealed religion and am not an atheist either, I can't see
> that I have any choice but to take the Celtic "route". Except that the stars
> had great significance for them and how they buried their dead, we don't know
> anything about the pre-Celtic "Beaker People", and the gods of the Angles,
> Saxons and Jutes, and then the Norsemen didn't leave much of an impression.
The
> pagan traditions of this country are Celtic, whatever that may be said to mean
> simply because that was their most recent coherent form (though
Witches/Wiccans
> may take exception to such an assertion, I suppose)
LOL, I take offense to their outlandish claims of celticism (is that a
word<G>?) As well as all the pretty trappings (i.e. crystals, wands, scrying
glasses... ad nausem) that go with those claims and outright silliness. I
guess if they are going to take offense, we should counter by pointing out
that if the truth puts one on the defensive, then perhaps they are not as
solidified in their beliefs as they would have us think...hmmmm?
After the Celts, paganism
> was in a slow decline. You have to call the gods and goddesses something,
after
> all, and the Celtic forms are all we have, so in the end it does no good to
> argue about whether Brighid/Brigantia originated with P-Celts, Q-Celts, Beaker
> People or long barrow builders. Various layers of belief blended into each
> other to form a "Celtic" religion. For Americans of Celtic descent, it's all
> different.
Yes it is! It is much harder to find the truth here, it is mired in so much
commercialism.
There was nothing like this; Celts among others, already Christian
> for centuries, arrived and replaced a native culture with their own, taking
> from it next to nothing and leaving a stark choice for (non-native) American
> pagans between trying, probably vainly, to adopt the customs of an earlier
> people who are often insulted even by the attempt,
and look at the attempts, pitiful at best. These people are right to find
insult in that. What of preservation if this slaughter is allowed to
continue? War and and the expected expansion and change of a culture do
enough damage of their own accord without the help of countless authors
who'll write anything and romanticize it to death under the name of 'Celtic',
simply to make a buck of some poor would be pagan who would swallow every
supposition without questioning, simply because they're looking for something
tangible to replacce the emptiness that this society has left them
with.(how's that for a run on sentence?<G>)
or look back to Europe for
> what their ancestors did in another time and place, and which must sometimes
> seem not very appropriate.
Absolutely, there are plenty of uglies in my family's skeleton closet, but
that's the nature of the human beast, you know? Here I would have to say that
this is part of the whole spiritual growth process, that knowledge of history
that says to us, "hey, look at the mistakes your ancestors made, some ugly
secrets in those closets, do you want to repeat the process or learn from
it?" That's why these folks need to do the research, understand the
ancestors, accept the faults and failures, embrace all of that as part of
them and their lineage. I mean, who said the legacy that they would leave us
had to be cherry frosted? Mistakes are all part of the learning process, and
to cover for those mistakes and make grand and romantic excuses for them, is
to fail yet again! How is that emulating your ancestry, how is that honoring
their trials and triumphs in your own lifetime? Finally, what is that adding
to the legacy that we leave to the next generation? Let's face it folks, yes
they were the pathfinders for future generations, but many of them were
simple F**K ups, now with the onslaught of neo paganism and new age book
publishers, they are romanticized and glorified F**K ups. WHY IS THAT? Don't
misinterpret that to read *ALL*, by no means were they all, as in many other
cultures, there are many heros who deserve these accolades, but to paint the
whole of society with the 'noble savage' ideology???? PULEEZE!
Johnson
found it...
I cannot argue with anything you have said, except that my heart knows where
my ancestors lived. And so there lives part of me as well. I am here, but I
am also there.