On a website I frequent, I came across a post about the hostility
between various religions. Someone there had the idea to set aside a
day for people of all religions to meditate on peace between the
religions. As I see it, people of all religions and faiths have more
in common with each other than with anyone else. We are all trying for
the same things, just in different ways.

I would ask that anyone who supports this cause, meditate/pray on the
set day (Sept. 6th) and light a candle. Also, please pass the idea on
to friends and family of all faiths.

Thank you,
~Cassie

We could always set the day aside for a battle to the death, to include
all the worlds religious adherents, so as  to determine the one true
religion and the one true god, winner take all.

                         Niall

I think that's a really worth while cause, Cassie, and my thoughts will be
with it.  Acceptance and support often seem like such uphill struggles, even
amongst those who agree on many things - even amongst druids :^)  So many
things have been destroyed and lost, oftentimes with 'good' intentions.

    I don't think it's a bad thing to weave interfaith awareness into our
daily practice as well, and a heavy concentrated burst, like you suggest,
can help to inspire such movement, one step at a time.

    I don't know what you're into Cassie, but some druids use Muin (the
vine) as a powerful symbol of unity: Tresim Fedma (strongest of effort), as
it weaves through the forest, uniting all sorts of trees.  It also makes a
pretty nice drink too!

Sláinte! (cheers!), to you and yours, and all on the 6th September.

Jim.

Christian Druids, now theres a tantalizing thought. That could take off like
wildfire.

                Niall

Niall,

William Stukeley was already there in the eighteenth century.

John Michael Greer

I was just being facetious as usual. Never pass up an opportunity to rub salt in a
culdees ass, who ever they may be.

                     Niall

Interfaith is hard. Blessings

--
------------------------------------------------------------

news:aca52cf2.0108150803.18b3722d@posting.google.com...

Not for Culdees.

              Niall

I think you might be kind of missing my point here???

Jim.

Sorry Jim, It's just that I am so totally intolerant of the idea of
giving any form of positive recognition to Christianity and I'm even
more against mixing Christianity with so called Druidism. If you have a
point to make, please state it and I shall treat your response
respectfully. My negative words are only directed at what now passes for
Neo Druidry and the Christian religion. I tend to tell Culdee Druid
leaders what I think but feel it would be rude to say the same to an
adherent of the path.

                         Niall

Hi, everyone. The day for meditating/ praying has been moved to the
weekend of Sept. 7th to give everyone to maximum opportunity to
participate. I'm sorry for any inconvenience this change may cause.

I wanted to clarify a point regarding all of this. This is *not* about
mixing religions. It is about getting rid of the hostility between
religions, and fostering an attitude of peace and understanding.

~Cassie

Well, being 'totally intolerant' isn't really good enough, me old fruits.
Remember that what you say here goes around the world and gives people
impressions of what we're like and what we do.  Any visitor who comes to
this group with respect and manners should be treated likewise and given the
up-most hospitality.  It's a kind of druidic thing ;^)

Jim.

That's your opinion! Some have not forgot the burning times. By the way, I have
noted well over the years here on alt religion druid, the insidious
christianization of druidry. I am well aware that my stand against those
bastards is not at all popular here. Well so much for current political
correctness and pier pressures.

               Niall

Rolling Eyes,

Nialls,  I haven't the energy, inclination or wisdom at the moment, to
continue this one.  Trash my opinion, by all means, but I suspect you have a
few demons that you're probably best left facing up to alone.

With respect,

Jim.

news:3B7FCC1A.522AD74B@softcom.net...

I haven't forgotten the Burning Times, though I do see it misused to justify
a lot of schlock and hysteria.  I'm also not very politically correct.

However........Niall, maybe if you'd stop trying to make Druidry into a
religion and elect yourself as ARD's Druid fundie, it would be easier to
tolerate well-meaning christians who are willing to serve the Land.  Or
pagans on a Druidic path who don't view all christians as evil.

Dana

Well there you go again making a fool of yourself and all the other nubbies.

If you even had half a clue about who I am, you would know that it is me alone
that speaks out here against making Druidry into a dogmatic religion and a
hierarchical power trip. I alone spearheaded that cause here on ARD some years
ago and in the process, pissed all the merchants off. Tell her Searles, don't
just sit there, your silence clearly demonstrates that your take on neo druidry
is all about competition for bodies and to hell with solidarity in any form.

I have always said here on this news group that I do not even want students. At
my age, it's time to let others do the work of teaching. I turn people away
constantly, so don't accuse me of seeking any form of power.

I speak only of creating some form of neo Druidic inter traditional solidarity
and you wish to turn my altruistic efforts into self serving. Folks here like
Searles knowing better, he sits by "silently" letting you rant, hoping you will
succeed in cutting  the limb off behind me.

Obviously any form solidarity is not in the cards at this time.

Let me tell you sweetie, you are way way out of your league. Do a little
homework on all things Druid and come back in a year or so.

                    Niall

Niall,

I thought you were doing a great job of taking care of this issue on your
own. I agree with most of what you've said. The only thing my comments would
add to this particular discussion would be the hidden and personal agendas
of others that would cloud the issue.

In general, I'm glad to see you taking a constructive approach to clearing
away much of the smoke that sometimes gets in the eyes of some on this
newsgroup.

I'm not looking for students or followers but knowledge and clarity are
always welcome.

Searles

news:3B812EA4.59EEB152@softcom.net...
 Tell her Searles, don't
<snip>

I tend to always use you as the prime example, or duty whipping post,  as I see
you as the prime source of information and inspiration here, and for this I
truly respect you, even though it may not seem so. The fact that you said that
Druidry is going through growing pains tells me that you fully realize that all
is not yet cast in stone regarding our future.

What I seek in Druidry is to see social order prevailing over chaos, something
that so far is but a dream.

In the Indian world I come from complacency is our worst enemy in that once we
stop self examination and think we have arrived, it's all over.

I made an altruistic proposal and you did not step in to defend me against that
nubbie who said I was only here seeking power and a supreme hierarchy of some
kind.

It is our duty to step in if someone attacks another who is only working for the
betterment of us all.

This is the solidarity I refer to. Even by creating a clear division in Druidry
between Culdees and Conservatives there is solidarity, in that one knows just
where the other stands. Not seeking a war, just a delineation.

                Niall

news:3B812EA4.59EEB152@softcom.net...
nubbies.

LOL!!  Ok, *now* it's getting good.....

"Nubbies"???  Isn't that a quality of certain upholstery fabrics?  Have I
become a couch???

Hmmm....all this abusive language.....  I must be hitting a nerve.......

Oh, ok, I get it!!!  This is the point at which I realize I have in fact
found the Great Druid Master I've been looking for all these years, only to
have pissed him off with my foolish blithering.  IIRC, I'm supposed to gasp
in dismay, weep, throw myself on his mercy, etc....  I will of course be
rejected repeatedly for some indefinite period of time while I follow along
after him abjectly abasing myself and doing his laundry.......

Yeah, right, I've seen those samauri movies too........  The story goes
something more like this:

Last Friday afternoon was slow at work. So I was doing a search on ard for
some old posts and I happened to run across one of yours. Which spurred me
to do a search on *your* posts. I didn't have a prayer of reading it all,
you're way too prolific, but yes, I know you claim to belong to some secret
Druid order nobody's ever heard of that was begun in 1540-something and
moved to America from Ireland in the 1920s. You also claim a 3rd degree in
British traditional wicca and were posting as "Lord Cuhulann" (your
spelling) on arwicca & arwitchcraft. And it's all the same old same
old...you come in swinging, bashing christianity and telling people they're
full of shit.  You change your argument positions faster than most men
change shirts.  If that doesn't get you enough of a cheering section, you
play the Poor Victimized Irish/Indian card. If that doesn't work, you claim
you were doing some research survey for your mysterious secret order and
just wanted to shake everyone up to get "honest" responses.  If that doesn't
work, you disappear for a few months, only to come back and start it all
again, apparently assuming that people have the attention spans of gnats.
As near as I can tell, you were the one to start using "culdee" as a
derogatory term for Druidry "corrupted" by christianity.  I personally would
prefer to keep christianity out of Druidry for a number of reasons, but
yours is still an inaccurate use of the word.  But hey, nobody take my word
for it, do your own Google search.  It's all there, preserved for posterity.

Tell her Searles, don't

form.

Oh, that's funny.....you appealing to Searles.......

Well, we only have your word for that, after all.  And power isn't
necessarily a group of dewy-eyed disciples sitting at your knee.....

Altruism doesn't need to be abusive.  If it's true (and it mostly isn't but
is only a posture), it shines like a star.  I don't see anything shining
here just now.

There's plenty of solidarity here if you look for it.  But it's not on your
terms, so I expect it's invisible.

Yeah, yeah, yeah........

Dana

Niall,

Um, no. If there's no clear delineation in the real world, by trying to impose one,
you create a false image of "just where the other stands" and then waste your time
attacking it. Nor can you can get solidarity by promoting divisiveness.

I'm not qualified to speak on the situation among Native Americans -- though I have
some Lakota ancestry I wasn't raised in any sort of contact with the culture. But
it seems to me that you're projecting that experience onto the very different
situation of modern Druidry. If you look at the last century or so of the evolution
of the Druid path -- and any shorter perspective risks missing the forest for the
trees -- you'll notice that the Christian presence within Druidry has been
progressively fading out, and is getting very thin on the ground.

Even in OBOD -- which I gather you despise (have you actually had any direct
contact with it?) -- this is a major theme of the last thirty years or so. In the
1970s, former Chosen Chief Ross Nichols was closing ceremonies with the Cabalistic
Cross. You won't find that now! To give Nichols credit, he was one of the people
who introduced the Goddess to the Druid scene in England. These days OBOD is paying
a lot of attention to Celtic Pagan tradition, and what I hear from Philip Carr-Gomm
is that the new version of the study course contains a *lot* more traditional lore
-- triads, myths, bardic poetry, and so on.

Meanwhile the liberal wing of Christianity is looking increasingly like the Pagans
they once tried to convert. Whatever your feelings about (say) Matthew Fox -- and
I'm not one of his fans -- what he's doing has a lot more in common with modern
Paganism than it does with historical Christianity. My guess is within fifty years
most of what's now liberal Christianity will have been absorbed by the Pagan scene.

Wake up and smell the oak leaves. We don't need more arbitrary divisions backed up
by self-righteous indignation -- leave that to the fundamentalists. We need a
willingness to set aside squabbles and get to work together.

John Michael Greer

"John Michael Greer" <threel...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3B827F8D.F7230D06@earthlink.net...

My understanding of what I know about Ross Nichols, is that he was
Christian, but in his druidic aspect he was a druid. Alot of the British
druidic and bardic lore was lost to the Christians, so the reconstruction of
druidry in Britain had to make do with the Christianised lore. Besides
which, I very much doubt the reconstruction would have begun as early as it
did if it were not for the fact that most of the british lore was
Christianised, and we may well have lost 150-200 years of reconstruction had
it tried to be all-out pagan in the beginning. Now that the Christian aspect
is fading somewhat, it is now far easier to get into the earlier Celtic
Pagan tradition, and we already have many clues to help us from the
Christianised lore, which may well have been ignored if the reconstruction
had begun as all-out pagan. As I said to Niall in another thread, the
Christians do have something to offer, if we can accept it in the correct
context and not get bogged down in whether or not Christianity is right or
wrong - (not directed at you John).
Thankfully the Irish Druidic and bardic lore has survived more 'intact' and
we can use that as a point of reference to help decode the British lore, and
bring it back out from hiding.

with respect

root

Root,

One of the things that impresses me about a lot of the people in the
mid-twentieth century British Pagan scene is that they were more interested in
building bridges than in raising walls. Nichols was simultaneously a druid, a
Martinist ceremonial magician, and an active member in a Celtic Christian
church (that, incidentally, denied the historical reality of Jesus). He saw no
conflict among these.

The same is true of other folks in the same time period -- the much-maligned
Dion Fortune, for example, who basically kickstarted the Goddess movement in
Britain but also wrote meditations on the Anglican liturgy that are prized by
Episcopalian friends of mine. For that matter, Gerald Gardner himself was
ordained as a Christian priest in 1946 in the Ancient British Church, another
of the small esoterically oriented Christian churches of the time. (Fans of the
independent Catholic movement will probably want to know that Gardner was
consecrated by Dorian Herbert, Bishop of Caerleon.)

Let me say this slowly, with maximum clarity -- not for your benefit, Root,
you've clearly got this, but for much of the rest of the list:

The idea that all of the religions of the world can be divided into two
mutually exclusive groups, with Christianity on one side and everything else on
the other, is a purely Christian concept.

If you accept that division, you're accepting one of the preconceptions of
Christian theology. If you actually get outside Christian theology, then
Christianity is just one more religion among many others. It has its particular
strengths and weaknesses, to be sure, but it's in no way unique, or radically
separate from historical Paganism.

I mean, come on -- there's a pair of sacrificial figures: one (John the
Baptist) who is born of an old woman at midsummer, and beheaded and buried in
the fall, the planting season in Palestine; the other born of a young virgin at
midwinter in a town whose name literally means "House of Bread," raised up
above the earth in a sacrificial death at the time of the harvest. The second
one, the central one in historical Christianity, has his twelve zodiacal
followers, not to mention the ceremonial feast where everybody eats his body
and drinks his blood, and a triple goddess standing at his feet at the
Crucifixion. Over that flurry of Pagan mythic imagery goes a full-blown
Neoplatonist mystical philosophy and theology with heavy Hellenistic Egyptian
influences. What could be more Pagan?

John Michael Greer

Dana, I put him on my filter list long ago.  Since he's changed his
call sign (and people constantly rise to his baited remarks) the 86
list doesn't really work.  I've started simply ignoring his posts.
--
Wade

<snip>

Root,

Very true! It's also possible to use Indo-European sources, with care, to do
the same thing. Even in suspect sources such as Iolo Morganwg, you can find
material that hearks back to archaic I-E mythology -- which argues that these
are some of the bits he actually got from authentic sources. Either that, or he
knew as much about comparative mythology and Sanskrit and Pahlavi literature as
anyone alive in the early 19th century, which seems a little unlikely...

John Michael Greer

From what I've read, he [Iolo] was regarded as one of the
preeminent Celtic scholars of his time.  It is a point that
often gets lost in all the mud slinging.
--
Wade

"John Michael Greer" <threel...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3B829BDE.BC99F229@earthlink.net...