Adam and Eve did not disobey and 'fall' - Christianity is wrong
Carl Sagan's billions
to understand Christianity, God, Jesus, Satan, Genesis, etc.
I struggled mightily trying to come to grips with the basic doctrines,
the core beliefs, the philosophies, the essence, the teachings,
as well as the contradictions in Old versus New Testament.
And the behavior of warrior so-called Christian nations, colonizing
or wreaking havoc in non-Christian countries (and now again
conducting horrible bombing wars on non-Christian people
in Afghanistan, Iraq and Somalia).
And the Genesis creation story, Adam and Eve the first couple, Noah,
the flood, the many prophets, the Messiah, the crucifixion, the
resurrection, revelations, and the many stories and prophecies
in the Bible.
Then very slowly (over maybe some 5 years) I came to understand
and accept several truths described below. These truths enabled me
to gradually throw off the yoke, the blinders and the intellectual
shackles imposed by a long childhood indoctrination in Christianity.
And amazingly but steadily and happily (and also irreversibly)
I BECAME FREE ----- FOREVER ------!
That was still pretty dramatic, e.g., when I read Robinson's
Honest-to-God and his brave search for answers (a search
beyond the usual Christian dogmas) I cried and shivered.
While reading his questions and ideas, he suddenly made me
realize it is both brave and OK to jettison anything that does not
make sense. He was trying to get there but did not fully make it.
But he made me see the first real glimmer of light and hope
in my own search: To think 'out of the (Christian) box', and
especially to no longer feel restricted by ancient 'holy' books,
to no longer feel obliged to take ideas and beliefs at face value,
i.e., to no longer accept: We can't explain it,
but you have to 'believe'!
So my struggle changed from thinking solely about what
was written in the Bible = in the past and trying to make sense
out of it, to thinking about what really makes sense - to me.
This was followed later by thinking about Teilhard de Chardin's
fantastic and elaborate ideas of increasing complexity. As
Robinson he was searching and came up with very ingenious
divine forces driving increasing complexity. As Robinson he
also did not make it but in his thinking he was jumping miles
ahead of the ordinary Christian theologian. The standard
Christian answers were not working for him either.
That was later followed by Dobzhansky's books on evolution,
Bertrand Russell's courage, wisdom and ideas,
books on comparative religion, and many others.
'There was no need to struggle anymore - forever':
Not due to surrender, but due to liberation: Liberation from
irrationality, illogic and indoctrination in ancient religious
beliefs.
I understood ---- and (as happened with Galileo when he understood
the earth position and path in the solar system) these insights
and this freedom was really irreversible. I understood that religion
develops in any human tribe or culture, and that different cultures
will lead to different religions. And with those insights
the hold of mental slavery in the form of Christianity
(and philosophies of the closely related and very similar
mono-theistic religions believing in one single powerful 'God' -
Islam and Judaism) was broken - - forever.
The mind broke free and I was now flying unencumbered.
No longer mentally stunted, no longer kept in intellectual captivity,
no longer bogged down in difficult struggles and confusion about
what was written in ancient 'holy' books and derived books.
These are the 10 basic (simplified) truths I came to understand:
1. All religions and gods are 'man' made, made and made up
by humans. Not necessarily to deceive but as a result of new
ideas and concepts accompanying the development of
various cultures. These ideas evolved over generations and were
influenced by other religions, cultures and people migrations.
They were gradually accepted, adapted, embellished and written
down as the (new) truth, the (new) philosophy of life, the (new)
gospel, the (new) 'true' religion.
2. The Christian concept and definition of a 'soul' is untenable.
Why? Evolution is a fact but nowhere in the long line of evolution
was the 'soul' (or something like the soul that makes us immortal)
suddenly inserted in a certain species and at a discrete point in
time.
If I assume that the 'soul' was suddenly inserted in a living
being, e.g., 1 million years ago, we must then argue that his
or her father and mother did not have a soul. We cannot.
This means:
All living beings have a soul or no living beings have a soul. As I
don't believe a worm has a soul, I must conclude that the concept
of a soul in each human being is a man-made construct.
A man-made construct because we have a need to believe that
we (or at least our 'spirit' or our 'soul') are immortal and will
exist forever, that we consist of more than matter and that
that extra is basically immaterial and will go on forever.
We also fear death. We can't accept being gone forever.
We can't accept never to see loved ones again.
We can't understand death and the reason for death.
We must deny death. We have a strong need to believe we are
immortal. We have to formulate a reason for our existence.
We have a deep need to believe that we will outlast all the
pain and misery in our earth-bound lives and will 'live happily
ever after' in a glorious place of light and joy called 'heaven'.
3. There is no heaven and hell. All religions are man-made, and
the concepts of heaven and hell are man-made. They were created
when social groups evolved culturally and developed written
and unwritten rules, rites and laws: To keep individual behavior
in line and within boundaries - to be beneficial to the group or to
its leaders. Heaven was a carrot, hell was the stick.
4. The Christian dogma of sin, with human beings having free choice
to obey or disobey, is untenable, as 'sin', killing, fighting, etc.,
already existed millions of years before human beings came about.
That means in the long line of evolution there was never a discrete
point where the 'first' human being suddenly had free choice to obey
or disobey. That also means the dogma of Christ's death at the cross
to atone for our sins is untenable. Human beings evolved and never
(suddenly) had free choice to obey or dis-obey (=sin).
The man-made Christian God sacrificed his son to atone for all
sins for all people forever for all times. That brilliant idea of
hope and total redemption and forgiveness by the almighty ruler
likely arose from much older pagan religions that had human
sacrifices at their core:
The ultimate sacrifice, as proof of total obedience and worship,
is giving up your most valuable 'asset', which is to give up and
offer/sacrifice your own SON (as in the Abraham-Isaac story).
That's why 'man' eventually came up with the idea that Christ
- the Son, God's own Son - was sacrificed by God, the Father,
and died for the sins of all mankind.
This was really a BRILLIANT and UNLIMITED expansion of the
original but limited idea behind human sacrifices.
Not only did the all-powerful God himself give part of himself (the
Son) as the sacrifice, this sacrifice was so big, so ALL encompassing,
so full of love and acceptance and mercy, that it forgave ALL sins of
ALL human beings for ALL times -- forever!!!
This idea is really mind-boggling in its ingenuity, vision and scope,
which also maybe explains its universal appeal.
However as our species, Homo Sapiens, evolved over millions of
years, there was never an Adam and Eve 6000 years ago.
That means Eve disobeying God and eating from the fruit
never happened. That means the 'fall' in the garden of Eden
never happened. That also means a 'fall' e.g. a million years
earlier never happened.
That means the philosophy of Jesus Christ having to die for
our original sin, for us disobeying God, has no basis in fact.
Our ancestors millions of years ago did not have the
intellectual capacity nor the choice to obey or disobey.
Even if the ideas of original sin and the fall are allegories,
they do not make sense versus the path of our evolution.
So the core philosophy of Christianity that we disobeyed
God out of free will and thereby sinned and therefore needed
punishment and therefore needed Jesus to save us, is not true.
5. The Christian concept that we can only be saved by accepting
Christ as our savior is untenable. As over 4.5 billion on earth are
not Christians and may not even know about Jesus Christ,
it is illogical to assume that God automatically condemns
4.5 billion out of 6.5 billion to hell = eternal suffering.
There are also over 100-200 billion stars in our own galaxy,
the Milky Way, and at least 100-200 billion OTHER galaxies in
the visible universe, each one on average containing
over 100 billion stars.
Assuming only 1 inhabited 'civilized' planet per billion stars, which
is
a very conservative estimate, then there are over 10,000 billion (!)
inhabited planets in our visible universe. It is illogical to assume
that
God sacrificed his son on tens of millions or even tens of billions of
planets.
6. All religions are man-made, which explains the huge variety of
religions. Any evolving human society develops beliefs about life
and death, which then often morph into absolute beliefs and then
finally into very structured and fixed beliefs = organized religion.
As cultures develop differently, also depending on geographic
location, available resources, trade, closeness with other
cultures, etc., their religions develop(ed) differently.
That's why there are so many religions, so many spin-offs of existing
religions, and why so many new spin-offs and denominations are
created all the time, all over the world. There are always new
cultural developments and new thinkers with new ideas, creative
thinkers who reject or modify or re-interpret the older ideas and are
able to entice multitudes with newer insights of hope.
7. All religions and their spin-offs are man-made, and the concept of
'God' in Christianity, Islam and Judaism is man-made.
As nowhere in the material world we see real physical acts/actions on
matter by a 'God', there is no reason to assume that an 'immaterial'
God like the Christian or Islamic or Jewish God (who controls,
guards, acts on matter = interferes in our material world) exists.
8. So we have to face the fact, with courage, and conclude that:
GOD IS ABSENT, IS DEAD OR DOES NOT EXIST.
As I find it illogical that if an all powerful God existed, he would
decide to disappear from our material world = universe into some
other universe, or even die, i.e., disappear from all possible
universes, there is only one conclusion left:
There is no immaterial God applying material forces on or into
our physical environment.
That means all physical and chemical occurrences can be
explained (sooner or later) without having to introduce/assume
a supernatural and 'immaterial' being capable of and actively
acting on matter. Therefore the conclusion is that God as
defined by Christianity, Islam and Judaism does not exist
and was made up. The concept of God, a single all-powerful
ruling entity, sprouted from preceding religions and cultures.
You can only exist if you are matter or tied to matter.
When you are matter or tied to matter (e.g. light, sound, magnetism),
you can be observed, measured, etc., and thus be proven to exist.
Examples:
The recent terrible cyclone in Myanmar, over 100,000 dead.
The recent terrible earthquake in China, over 80,000 dead.
In the 2004 tsunami near Sumatra up to 100,000 innocent children
were killed in just one hour (in total an estimated 220,000 innocent
people died).
'God' did not do it.
'Satan' did not do it.
Humans did not do it.
The earth core is still cooling, forcing huge plates to move,
which occasionally rupture or fracture into earthquakes,
volcanic eruptions, etc., which then can cause terrible
natural catastrophes such as this tsunami.
Nowhere did or does the 'hand of God' act anywhere.
He does not cause these disasters, and he does not prevent them.
9. The mystery of matter and the most crucial question and
most profound mystery of all
--- 'WHY WE (made of matter) EXIST' ----
does not mean we have to assume an all powerful being like the
Christian God who creates, controls, acts on matter,
and rules and monitors and determines everything.
In the last 1000 years more and more mysteries have been explained.
In the coming centuries many more mysteries will be resolved.
That means religions/religious beliefs get pushed back more and
more, away from the current simple absolute 'truths'
as described in 'holy' books in various religions.
Religions always consist of a mixture of man-made philosophies,
myths, theories, taboos, legends, laws, rules, remnants of earlier
religions, etc.. Explanations from hundreds of years or even much
longer ago will be pushed back or often changed or voided by
science and more rational explanations.
That also means a religion such as Christianity can only survive if
it develops a much better explanation and rationale for the mystery
of matter and life, and for our own existence. However Christianity
cannot 're-engineer' itself. It cannot offer a new and science-based
explanation of life and death, or even reform itself into a more
rational philosophy of life. The gap cannot be bridged.
So it will remain an anti-scientific and mostly STATIC belief system,
based on fixed explanations for life and death and the reason for our
existence, made by men and women who lived hundreds and even
thousands of years ago.
The contradiction and discrepancies between what we learn from
science and the fixed explanations from hundreds and thousands
of years ago will grow. Christianity and other similar religions
will have difficulty to survive as a philosophy of life.
The psychological human need for spirituality will not disappear, but
the dogmas and beliefs of religions such as Christianity, Islam and
Judaism will become less and less acceptable to more and more people.
The rites, rituals, songs, communal feelings, music, spiritual
teachings and social interactions may survive but the doctrines and
dogmas cannot survive in their current absolutist forms.
10. The core issue is really a direct conflict between:
o the religious/emotional/non-scientific approach or persona and
o the scientific/rational approach or persona
Spirituality will probably stay in various forms; dogmatic religions
based on ancient fixed beliefs will probably slowly disappear or
remain with smaller and smaller groups of the uneducated, the
un-enlightened, the desperate or the permanently indoctrinated.
As we all know, indoctrination in the first 1 - 20 years of one's life
is superstrong and often will never be overcome. The brain seems
to get hardwired in believing in the non-rational that it was fed so
many times and with so much 'convincing' force.
There often may be long religious revivals and reactions but
on longer terms science and associated education
probably will (albeit very slowly) void ancient belief systems.
However, religion can very well hang on for a very long time,
even when becoming unsatisfactory to many more people, e.g.
when there are no other enticing spiritual/social frameworks
as substitutes or replacements. For scientists that could well be
science and the wonders, the size and the unbelievable beauty
and complexity of the physical universe and its inhabitants.
But the masses are poorly educated and never get enthralled
by nature or by scientific exploration and thought. They do
get enthralled by food, drink, sex, entertainment, sports, and
the unending accumulation of material possessions:
The absence or substitute for or even opposite of spirituality.
This basic science-religion conflict is also why so many religions,
including Christianity and Islam, in their core will stay so anti-
science. They can never embrace a much more rational belief
system that so clearly exposes the phallacies in their inherited
belief system.
============================================
Why is rejecting Christianity in my opinion a step forward?
Instead of believing in fixed philosophies, laws and taboos
created by men and women many hundreds and even thousands
of years ago (people who did not know any better (not their fault)),
it is much better to determine your own beliefs and truths.
This goes hand in hand with investigating and coming to grasp
with the many insights provided by science
That will enable us to leave behind outdated laws, fears,
prejudices, misconceptions, racism, intolerance,
supremacy feelings, and ancient ideas about death,
heaven, hell, sin, soul, gods, etc.
That freedom will jettison all the religious ballast that is
a constant obstruction and obstacle to a better, more rational
and more humane world.
Rationality does not ENSURE more humanity, but in my
opinion it is a more promising path than non-rationality.
Rationality combined with strong humanism may guide us
to a better world of fairness, the alleviation of poverty,
of global sharing and caring, to justice and peace.
Do I think this is feasible? Not that much: Power, greed, racism,
and power politics are superstrong human and societal forces
(for injustice, wars, killing, irrationality, waste, destruction,
hate, intolerance, etc.).
But it may show the direction of hope which we can then analyze
rationally. That may empower and enable us to plan a path and
build societal AND global structures to channel, restrict or even
partially control the beast.
With regards,
Michael M. Terra - Carl Sagan's Billions
Jamffer
"Carl Sagan's billions" <mm2t...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:08ed99ef-2386-4d75...@i76g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>Kindergarten history snipped<
> Nowhere did or does the 'hand of God' act anywhere.
> He does not cause these disasters, and he does not prevent them.
>
> 9. The mystery of matter and the most crucial question and
> most profound mystery of all
>
> --- 'WHY WE (made of matter) EXIST' ----
>
> does not mean we have to assume an all powerful being like the
> Christian God who creates, controls, acts on matter,
> and rules and monitors and determines everything.
Why would anybody need to ask why?
Matter does exist. Matter cannot be destroyed. Matter was never created by
any God or anybody else. Matter has always existed, forever. Surprise!
There is no Supreme Being but eternal matter and time will exist, in a never
ending variable state, forever.
If you need evidence, neither of us have enough years to wait for proof.
People can only hypothesize.
Jamffer
m9mck...@yahoo.com
> "Carl Sagan's billions" <mm2te...@yahoo.com> wrote in messagenews:08ed99ef-2386-4d75...@i76g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
Just curious, how do you know that matter always existed?
I don't think science (physics, astro-physics, etc.) at its current
level has proven that.
Extrapolating from current physical laws 'of nature' (eg matter cannot
be destroyed) is quite a stretch as we don't know everything/much
about matter by any means.
I don't necessarily disagree but I am curious about your assumptions/
premsises. If our universe began with the big bang some 15-20 billion
years ago, what came before it? It is likely it came from the collapse
or explosion of a preceding universe, etc., etc. That probably means
there are multiple universes, maybe even many billions, ending and
starting anew. A Christian would ask, what started it all? And how
can events happen without a beginning somewhere? And see: God must
have created the beginning.
Then we can ask in return: Who created God?
Then the most simple answer would be 'matter and time have always
existed' and with that assumption the problem goes away. The same
answer from a Christian: God has always existed, it also makes the
problem go away.
I don't necessarily disagree but I think the mystery of matter and why
we (consisting of matter) exist has not been explained and maybe can
never be explained. However that is still no reason to assume an all
powerful God (as claimed by Christianity) exists and created it all,
on his whim, and manages it all and has a purpose for it.
With regards,
Michael
Jamffer
<m9mck...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1186cfdc-5e92-4f23...@w7g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
Small minded mortals need a beginning and end for everything. For eternal
things, they have always been, forever. Suprise!
The first law of conservation of mass says that energy cannot be created nor
destroyed. This longstanding fundamental law of physics suprisingly still
stands today, which answers your question. The laws further dictate that the
same holds true for energy and charge. These quantities can only be
converted between one and other. Matter isn't destroyed in a nuclear
reaction. The energy released is the result of a sustained nuclear reaction
which occurs as a release of energy from the reaction. The fundamental unit
of matter still exists. In a net system, the amount of energy, mass, and
charge is constant.
duke
<mm2t...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>And amazingly but steadily and happily (and also irreversibly)
>I BECAME FREE ----- FOREVER ------!
Satan smiles today.
duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
Zadok
"duck" <> wrote in message ...
> On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 22:22:01 -0700 (PDT), "Carl Sagan's billions"
> <mm2t...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >And amazingly but steadily and happily (and also irreversibly)
> >I BECAME FREE ----- FOREVER ------!
>
> Satan smiles today.
Satan smiles everyday, when he sees cath0_licks bowing to their idols.
And calling their priests father, when Jesus said to call no man on
this earth father.
Smile.
SheBlewHimDidYouBlowHim
"duke" <duckg...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:51f484lfl8enbuo5u...@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 22:22:01 -0700 (PDT), "Carl Sagan's billions"
> <mm2t...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>And amazingly but steadily and happily (and also irreversibly)
>>I BECAME FREE ----- FOREVER ------!
>
> Satan smiles today.
oh hey, look who it is, it's dumbshit duke.
hey duke, your supposed ALL-POWERFUL christian sky buddy has been in
existence for thousand of years according to you, and yet your god still
can't defeat satan.
hey dumbshit duke, is your god ALL-POWERFUL or is your god a USELESS PILE OF
CRAP?
hey dumbshit duke, why did your sky pixie create satan to begin with ?.
> duke, brainwashed dumbass
duke
>> >And amazingly but steadily and happily (and also irreversibly)
>> >I BECAME FREE ----- FOREVER ------!
>> Satan smiles today.
>Satan smiles everyday, when he sees cath0_licks bowing to their idols.
But the only idol we have is Jesus Christ.
>And calling their priests father, when Jesus said to call no man on
>this earth father.
And Paul defined it.
Smile.
duke
<kil...@killgod.com> wrote:
>"duke" <duckg...@cox.net> wrote in message
>news:51f484lfl8enbuo5u...@4ax.com...
>> On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 22:22:01 -0700 (PDT), "Carl Sagan's billions"
>> <mm2t...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>And amazingly but steadily and happily (and also irreversibly)
>>>I BECAME FREE ----- FOREVER ------!
>>
>> Satan smiles today.
>
>oh hey, look who it is, it's dumbshit duke.
>hey duke, your supposed ALL-POWERFUL christian sky buddy has been in
>existence for thousand of years according to you, and yet your god still
>can't defeat satan.
Satan lives in the fires of hell. Don't bring any clothes with you. Satan's
opening welcome to you is "spread 'um and bend over."
Knuje
> On Sun, 20 Jul 2008 16:38:40 -0400, "SheBlewHimDidYouBlowHim"
>
> >"duke" <duckgumb...@cox.net> wrote in message
> >news:51f484lfl8enbuo5u...@4ax.com...
> >> On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 22:22:01 -0700 (PDT), "Carl Sagan's billions"
> >> <mm2te...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >>>And amazingly but steadily and happily (and also irreversibly)
> >>>I BECAME FREE ----- FOREVER ------!
>
> >> Satan smiles today.
>
> >oh hey, look who it is, it's dumbshit duke.
> >hey duke, your supposed ALL-POWERFUL christian sky buddy has been in
> >existence for thousand of years according to you, and yet your god still
> >can't defeat satan.
>
> Satan lives in the fires of hell. Don't bring any clothes with you. Satan's
> opening welcome to you is "spread 'um and bend over."
>
> duke, American-American
> *****
> "The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
> Pope Paul VI
> *****
Tsssk, now isn't that statement a sin? Prideful and against scripture
too....
James
>Re: Adam and Eve did not disobey and 'fall' - Christianity is wrong
Jamffer,
Sorry, but the "evidence" of some kind of intelligent creator is all
around us. It is like the old saying which says something like, "You
can't see the tree through the forest." No human as ever witnessed
evolution produce any new life form. None. Thus all they can do is
hypothesize that given enough time, life forms will emerge from
lifeless matter.
But even common sense should tell you that anything as sophisticated
as the human body, and esp the human brain, cannot be put together and
wired by mindless random chance. Random chance just does not get that
sophisticated. If it did, we would have the natural forces carve out
things like the Taj Mahal out of mountains etc. But we NEVER find such
complexities from random events. Yes, we may find some simple patterns
like snowflakes etc, following precise laws of physics, but never the
sophisticating machinery that we find in living things today.
Even the diversity of living things, such as from a house fly to an
elephant etc, should point to an intelligence at work here.
Reason tells us that some great intelligence is behind all of that.
And the Bible calls that great intelligence, God.
Sincerely, James
If you wish to have a discussion with me, please use email since I do
not follow all conversations in ng threads
***********************************
Want a FREE home Bible study?
Have Jehovah's Witnesses Questions?
Go to the authorized source:
http://www.watchtower.org
***********************************
Bi...@believer.og
> Sorry, but the "evidence" of some kind of intelligent creator is all
> around us. It is like the old saying which says something like, "You
> can't see the tree through the forest."
What the Atheist does not admit is that once you accept Jesus as your
Personal Lord and Saviour, you will believe that Jesus is REAL. This is
called "Spiritual Discernment", and the Atheist does not have the ability
(not yet, anyways) to see that the Bible is Real. So it claims that it is
not right, but the Atheist is WRONG.
No human as ever witnessed
> evolution produce any new life form. None. Thus all they can do is
> hypothesize that given enough time, life forms will emerge from
> lifeless matter.
The Atheist sits by, day after day, to see if his bowl of dirt has
randomly popped into a human eyeball. But he will never see it. ONly God
can make eyeballs from dirt!
> But even common sense should tell you that anything as sophisticated
> as the human body, and esp the human brain, cannot be put together and
> wired by mindless random chance.
Nope. Only God can make a protein molecule pop radomly out of dirt! Try
as he might, Darwin cannot even come close!
Random chance just does not get that
> sophisticated. If it did, we would have the natural forces carve out
> things like the Taj Mahal out of mountains etc. But we NEVER find such
> complexities from random events. Yes, we may find some simple patterns
> like snowflakes etc, following precise laws of physics, but never the
> sophisticating machinery that we find in living things today.
Nobody has EVER seen one species randomly turn into another. Never. Only
God can do that, and he's done! It took him six days, and then he rested.
> Even the diversity of living things, such as from a house fly to an
> elephant etc, should point to an intelligence at work here.
Yes. And every living ceature is a sign and wonder. Every single one
of them is perfect.
> Reason tells us that some great intelligence is behind all of that.
> And the Bible calls that great intelligence, God.
Yes. It is only logical. We can prove the existence of God, beyond any
doubt, but the use of reason! We can beat the Atheist at his own game!
Either he agrees that God is real, or else he is uneasonable!
Try to "prove" THAT, Mr. ATheist!