Historical Jesus Summary : No Reliable Evidence
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
The following referenced website has a lot of information
doubting both the new testamyth christian gospels -and-
epistles, as well as a section doubting non-christian sources
used by some to promote an historical Jesus. Also, the
website includes
o a section on frauds involving a supposed Jesus char-
acter,
o the absence of writings about a supposed Jesus char-
acter during the lifetime when such a character would
had to have existed, based on the new testamyth itself,
o the absence of sources for any Jesus material as far
as independent corroboration of actual first-hand wit-
nesses -- hearsay is the key word when it comes to
'Jesus' claims
o origins for many of the myths in the new testamyth
o discussion of how trying to manufacture heroes was
common in ancient days, with godlike men
o scholarly bias of christian scholars explained
o many quotes on views of those skeptical towards the
claims that the new testamyth Jesus actually existed
as anything other than a hodgepodge of myths, most
of which were based on prior-existing myths
- - -
---
Did a historical Jesus exist?
by Jim Walker, originated: 12 June 1997 /
additions: 25 May 2004
http://www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm
---
Excerpt:
...
NON-CHRISTIAN SOURCES
Virtually all other claims of Jesus come from sources
outside of Christian writings. Devastating to the claims
of Christians, however, comes from the fact that all of
these accounts come from authors who lived after the
alleged life of Jesus. Since they did not live during the
time of the hypothetical Jesus, none of their accounts
serve as eyewitness evidence.
- - -
Josephus Flavius
Josephus Flavius, the Jewish historian, lived as the
earliest non-Christian who mentions a Jesus. Although
many scholars think that Josephus' short accounts of
Jesus (in Antiquities) came from interpolations perpe-
trated by a later Church father (most likely, Eusebius),
Josephus got born in 37 C.E., after the alleged cruci-
fixion of Jesus, and wrote Antiquities in 93 C.E. after
the first gospels got written. Therefore, even if his
accounts about Jesus came from his hand, his in-
formation could only serve as hearsay.
- - -
Pliny the Younger
Pliny the Younger, a Roman official, got born in 62 C.E.
His letter about the Christians only shows that he got his
information from Christian believers themselves. Re-
gardless, his birth date puts him out of the range of
eyewitness accounts.
- - -
Tacitus
Tacitus, the Roman historian's birth year at 64 C.E., puts
him well after the alleged life of Jesus. He gives a brief
mention of a "Christus" in his Annals (Book XV, Sec. 44),
which got written around 109 C.E. He gives no source for
his material. Although there occur many disputes as to the
authenticity of Tacitus' mention of Jesus, the very fact that
his birth happened after the alleged Jesus and wrote the
Annals during the formation of Christianity, it can only pro-
vide us with hearsay accounts.
- - -
Suetonius
Suetonius, a Roman historian, born in 69 C.E. who men-
tions a "Chrestus," a common name. Apologists assume
that "Chrestus" means "Christ." But even if Suetonius had
meant "Christ," it still says nothing about an earthly Jesus.
Just like all the others, Suetonius birth occurred after the
purported Jesus. Again, only hearsay.
- - -
Talmud
Talmud: Amazingly some Christians use brief portions of
the Talmud, (a collection of Jewish civil a religious law,
including commentaries on the Torah), as evidence for
Jesus. They claim that Yeshu (a common name in Jewish
literature) in the Talmud refers to Jesus.
However, this Jesus, according to Gerald Massey actually
depicts a disciple of Jehoshua Ben-Perachia at least a
century before the alleged Christian Jesus.
[Massey] Regardless of how one interprets this, the Pales-
tinian Talmud got written between the 3rd and 5th century
C.E., and the Babylonian Talmud between the 3rd and 6th
century C.E., at least two centuries after the alleged cruci-
fixion! At best it can only serve as controversial Christian
and pagan legend; it cannot possibly serve as evidence
for a historical Jesus.
- - -
The above sources get quoted the most as "evidence" for
Jesus by Christians. All other sources (Christian and non-
Christian), some of which include:
Mara Bar-Serapion (circa 73 C.E.),
Ignatius (50 - 98? C.E.),
Polycarp (69 - 155 C.E.),
Clement of Rome (? - circa 160 C.E.),
Justin Martyr (100 - 165 C.E.),
Lucian (cira 125 - 180 C.E.),
Tertullian (160 - ? C.E.),
Clement of Alexandria (? - 215 C.E.),
Origen (185 - 232 C.E.),
Hippolytus (? - 236 C.E.), and
Cyprian (? - 254 C.E.).
All these people got born well after the alleged death of
Jesus. Not one of them provides an eyewitness account,
all of them simply spout hearsay.
- - -
As you can see, apologist Christians embarrass themselves
when they unwittingly or deceptively violate the rules of his-
toriography by using after-the-event writings as evidence
for the event itself.
Not one of these writers gives a source or backs up his
claims with evidential material about Jesus.
Although we can provide numerous reasons why the
Christian and non-Christian sources prove spurious, and
argue endlessly about them, we can cut to the chase by
simply looking at the dates of the documents and the birth
dates of the authors.
It doesn't matter what these people wrote about Jesus,
an author who writes after the alleged happening and
gives no detectable sources for his material can only
give example of hearsay.
All of the post writings about Jesus could easily have
come from the beliefs and stories from Christian be-
lievers themselves.
...
- - -
Other references regarding Jesus claims:
Here are a few links/excerpts to information some
may be unaware of, for social/cultural/religious
reasons, regarding the Jesus of christianity and
the Jesus of islam:
Jesus characters / Christ characters?
---
Aside - a couple of web sites for a humorous break
from the Jesus quest -- an adventure which has yet
to find historically reliable validation for a supposed
son (called Jesus in the christian bible) of a sup-
posed god, or a supposed prophet (called Jesus
in the quran) of a supposed allah ...
Jesus vs. Elvis
http://www.infidels.org/misc/humor/jesus_vs_elvis.html
Top Ten Reasons Why Beer Is Better Than Jesus
http://freethought.tamu.edu/~blemoine/top_ten.html
End Aside
---
Jesus was _______ (fill in the blank with all secular
history on any Jesus characters deemed to be his-
torically relevant prior to 40 C.E., with evidence of a
non-supernatural, contemporaneous, and objectively
verifiable nature).
Then, based on what's in that blank, compare that to
the following:
~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~
1. Four Elephants reveal non-existence of Jesus?
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/disbelief/four_elephants.htm
"Jesus' life and death was God's revelation that our
personal salvation from sins --like torture and murder--
is to be effected by our torture and murder of the
divine emissary himself. ... I would characterize what
we do encounter as a quartet of elephants in the room,
which the defenders of an historical Jesus must try to
ignore or work their way around. ..."
2. The Jesus Doubt File
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/disbelief/jesus_doubt_file.htm
For consideration of the likelihood that Jesus was
a mythical creation -or- an overly ambitious series
of creative extrapolations pertaining to a human who,
if he even ...
3. Helpful information to refute claims that 'Jesus
Christ - Son of God & a Virgin' existed
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/disbelief/refute_claims_that_jesus_existed.htm
... the winner of the christ contest was merely the
belief system most adept at combining the power
of the promise of immortality with the power of the
state and the power of ...
4. Top 420 Books for SHANANNAREEFERS
(105-130 : Christian Criticism)
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/books_christian_criticism.htm
Books on Christian Criticism for Seekers, Humanists,
Atheists, Naturalists, Agnostics, Nonreligionists,
Nontheists, Antireligionists, Realists, Educationalists,
Experimentalists, Freethinkers, Enlightened,
Rationalists, Secularists ...
5. Jesus Christ, Supermyth
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/disbelief/jesus_christ_supermyth.htm
The assertion at issue is that Jesus existed, some
say as a man, some say as a resurrected ...
6. The Jesus Mysteries
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/history/jesus_mysteries.htm
... which pertains to a controversial subject, Jesus
Christ, said subject having stirred up emotions on all
sides of the issue, amongst disbelievers / doubters ...
7. Jesus
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/disbelief/jesus.htm
... recently submitted a challenge to my doubt/disbelief
regarding the literalist interpretation of the Jesus character
of the new testamyth ... to which I replied as follows ...
8. Pro-Humanist FREELOVER Daily - 112401
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/2001/11/24.htm
... First Human Cloned Embryo ... Dead Sea Scrolls
to Cause Vatican to Revise the Bible ...
9. Pro-Humanist FREELOVER Daily - 090701
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/prohumanistfreeloverdaily/090701.htm
WWJD - What Would Jesus Do? ... New Species'
Genes Near One Another ... 'Black Wave' Could
Sweep Universe ...
10. The Nature of Christian Brainwashing - Immoral
Path to Delusion
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/disbelief/nature_of_brainwashing.htm
Cover up the downsides of religious history, threaten
children with eternal damnation if they don't believe the
christian view, and treat all other religions and freedom ...
11. Reasoning your way to no god, no christ
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/disbelief/reasoning_your_way_to_no_god.htm
... son of god called Jesus. The point of the position
of Jesus as myth is that the Catholic Jesus godman
and the historical Jesus godman are demonstrably ...
12. Evemerism
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/history/evemerism.htm
... Evemerism, named after Evemeras, a 4th Century
B.C.E. Greek philosopher who developed the idea
that, rather than being mythological creatures as was
accepted by the ...
13. Bloody Sacrificial Salvation
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/history/bloody_sacrificial_salvation.htm
... primitive concept from primitive and ancient cultures,
with the one surviving icon perpetuated to this day, with
excerpt from the notes to The Jesus Puzzle, ...
14. Archaeology refutes the Bible's claim to history
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/history/archaeology_refutes_bible.htm
The following provides a detailed analysis of a book
which provides details on why the fundamentalist /
literalist interpretation of the pentateuch, the christian
bible, and the quran, fall far short when it comes to
the historical claims made in those documents. ...
15. Gnosticism
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/history/gnosticism.htm
Links to/excerpts from some key information in the
Encyclopedia Britannica, related directly or indirectly
to Gnosticism. ...
16. Mesopotamian Foundations for the origins
of Judaism, some of which led, eventually,
to the origins of Christianity
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/history/mesopotamian_foundations_for.htm
17-20. Middle Eastern/Greek/Roman Foundations
for the origins of Judaism and Christianity
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/history/mideast_greek_roman1.htm
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/history/mideast_greek_roman2.htm
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/history/mideast_greek_roman3.htm
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/history/mideast_greek_roman4.htm
21. Greco-Roman Foundations for the origins of Christianity
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/history/greco_roman_foundations_for.htm
22. Rome: Power & Glory
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/history/rome_power_and_glory.htm
... Fascinating overview of the Roman origins,
Republic, Empire, Emperors, subjects, slaves,
conquests, and the conquered. ...
23. James - son of Joseph - brother of
Jesus ossuary inscription forged
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/science/james_ossuary_inscription_forged.htm
... Fascinating report on how legitimate scien-
tific inquiry, given sufficient time / skepticism /
resources, can excel in getting to the truth of
the matter regarding ancient artefacts ...
- - -
¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤
~~~
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman
Freethinking Realist Exploring
Expressive Liberty, Openness,
Verity, Enlightenment, & Rationality
~~~
Bill
"Jesus". I intend to use portions of this outstanding article in the future.
--
Bill
"Pro-Humanist FREELOVER" <prohu...@gr8mail.com> wrote in message
news:38ck85F...@individual.net...
stone
Bill wrote in message ...
>This is a really outstanding desertion on
>"Jesus". I intend to use portions of this outstanding article in the
future.
>
>--
>Bill
>"Pro-Humanist FREELOVER" <prohu...@gr8mail.com> wrote in message
>news:38ck85F...@individual.net...
>> - - -
>>
>> The following referenced website has a lot of information
>> doubting both the new testamyth christian gospels -and-
>> epistles, as well as a section doubting non-christian sources
>> used by some to promote an historical Jesus. Also, the
>> website includes
>>
>> o a section on frauds involving a supposed Jesus char-
>> acter,
>>
>> o the absence of writings about a supposed Jesus char-
>> acter during the lifetime when such a character would
>> had to have existed, based on the new testamyth itself,
>>
>> o the absence of sources for any Jesus material as far
>> as independent corroboration of actual first-hand wit-
>> nesses -- hearsay is the key word when it comes to
>> 'Jesus' claims
Josephus, first century Jewish historian wrote about Jesus. He is a real
historical figure.
See website:
http://www.carm.org/questions/Josephus.htm
_______________________________________________________________________________
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jke...@zoomnet.net
real
> historical figure.
> See website:
> http://www.carm.org/questions/Josephus.htm
> >>
Here's the best article I've come across
on the Jesus/Josephus question:
http://www.bede.org.uk/Josephus.htm
some good links in the bibliography too.
William
wrote:
>Bill wrote in message ...
>>
>>> o the absence of sources for any Jesus material as far
>>> as independent corroboration of actual first-hand wit-
>>> nesses -- hearsay is the key word when it comes to
>>> 'Jesus' claims
>
>Josephus, first century Jewish historian wrote about Jesus. He is a real
>historical figure.
[snip]
He was not an eyewitness - he was not even a contemporary.
William
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
>
> On 27 Feb 2005 22:56:32 GMT, "stone"
> <anti...@ineedhits-mail.com> wrote:
>
> >Bill wrote in message ...
> >>
> >>> o the absence of sources for any Jesus material as far
> >>> as independent corroboration of actual first-hand wit-
> >>> nesses -- hearsay is the key word when it comes to
> >>> 'Jesus' claims
> >
> >Josephus, first century Jewish historian wrote about Jesus.
> >He is a real historical figure.
>
> He was not an eyewitness - he was not even a contemporary.
From 'Ancient Salvation Cults'
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/history/ancient_salvation_cults.htm
Excerpt: While searching in Earl's "The Jesus Puzzle"
website, I noticed the following exhaustive treatment
of the Josephus issues which many might find of
interest being that Josephus is referenced as an
independent source of the supposed existence of
the biblical / quranic Jesus: Supplementary Article
No. 10 : Josephus Unbound, Reopening the Jose-
phus Question.
http://www.humanists.net/jesuspuzzle/supp10.htm
- - -
From 'Four Elephants reveal non-existence of Jesus?'
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/disbelief/four_elephants.htm
Excerpt: In the face of the overwhelming presence of
this elephantine quartet, historical Jesus defenders are
reduced
o to appealing to two passages in the Jewish historian
Josephus that are highly unreliable --even in part-- as
authentic to the original text, but are rather Christian
insertions;
o to a mention by Paul of James as "the brother of the
Lord" which is ambiguous at best, since "brother"
elsewhere in the epistles refers to a member of the
sect;
or
o to the plaintive claim that references in the epistles to
crucifixion and rising, as well as terms like "blood" and
"flesh", can only have an earthly historical meaning. This
ignores the entire Platonic philosophy of the time and
the workings of its two-tiered universe with spiritual and
material equivalents, something into which all the other
savior gods of the day fitted perfectly. Their saving
activities were seen not as historical, but mythical.
They say the devil is in the details, but in this case, he's
right up there in the big stuff, front-row-center with those
hulking, braying elephants.
jke...@zoomnet.net
You REALLY should read
THE UN-AUTHORIZED VERSION
by Robin Lane Fox
JESUS: AN HISTORIAN'S REVIEW OF THE GOSPELS
by Michael Grant
Both professional historians,both ATHEISTS,
and both in agreement that Jesus existed.
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
news:1109564748....@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
I'm skeptical, as many folks like to dance in "Jesus
as man" land, in 'what if' manner, but so much myth
surrounds the character that it's difficult to see how
any 'real' Jesus man can be found in all that, for
'real', with any reliable evidence or validation what-
soever.
Anyway ...
Thanks for those references. -2- atheists buying into
the social-cultural fantasy of a 'real' human being used
as a leverage point for all the new testamyth and qur-
anic mythos about a Jesus is not impressive, on its
face, but does, instead, show how easy it is for folks
to pretend that there is an iota of legitimacy for all
the supernaturalistic fantasies of western/arabic cul-
ture.
A 'real' Jesus? Sure, lots of prophets and 'son of god'
claimants and guys named Jesus existed at that time,
but any of them remotely related to the fantastical super-
naturalism of the new testamyth and the later prophet
guy named Jesus in the quran? That's yet another
journey down make-it-up-as-they-go-along lane, unless
you have some information on those -2- authors' work
that you'd care to share with us, and that's impressive
by virtue of what they've presented.
Their case for the existence of any Jesus related in
any way to christian or islamic faith is ... _______ (?)
After all, once you remove the mythos of the Jesus
of the new testamyths and the quran, what's left?
Prior pagan myths don't make for a strong foundation
for any human being remotely related to the super-
naturalistic Jesus of the new testamyth or the prophet
Jesus of the quran.
As for guys named Jesus, lots of them, then and even
now. As for prophet-types, and folks acting like they
speak for a god, lots of them, then and even now. As
for guys claiming to be 'the' son of god, not so many
now, but lots of them back then.
Anyone can claim or assert that there's some dude
that lived around that time that some guy or guys
centered some of their new testamyth and quranic
stories on, but no legitimate historian can come
close to evidentially supporting the preposterous
notion that a human did any of the mythical or super-
natural things asserted in the new testamyth, nor can
any legitimate historian support any god-hood claims
for any Jesus or any modern-day 'son-of-god' asserter,
nor can any legitimate historian buy into the panoply ...
... of mythos that surrounds the new testamyth / qur-
anic Jesus character, and come up with anything other
than the new testamyth / quranic Jesus as a creation
of human imagination, an historical non-entity, in fact,
a myth of the Roman Empire, promoted/sanctified as
official state doctrine of an official state theocracy over
300 years after the supposed time of the mythos.
Now, plenty of historians are more than willing to dab-
ble in the Jesus game, pontificating on this-that-or-the
other regarding a Jesus that could've existed and that
could've been a leverage point for the mythos, but
coulda-woulda-shoulda does not a relevant Jesus cre-
ate or substantiate, it's simply dancing on the burial
ground of a supposed supernatural being that did not,
that could not, actually have existed, based on the
easy-to-understand naturalistic fact that supernatural-
ism is manifestation of myth, that supernatural beings
are manifestation of myths, and that all claims regard-
ing supernaturalism consists, in totality, of myths.
Jesus this, Jesus that, Jesus the-other, as impres-
sive as God this, God that, God the-other, just claims,
no more, no less, unless reliable evidence of a 'real'
human being that can be in any way associated with
the mythical new testamyth/quranic Jesus can be
manifested, -and- as for God, well, good luck on
finding any God, anywhere, as folks have been look-
ing for a very long time for one, and none have been
found/substantiated/validated as 'realities', in any
way, shape, or form.
roger_...@yahoo.co.uk
So? The same is true of most of what he records about first century
Judaism.
All the best,
Roger Pearse
Tom
<roger_...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1109699889.2...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
So you ignorant ass, that was the topic of discussion. Josephus wasn't an
eyewitness to Jesus. If you are going to stick your pseudo-intellectual nose
into arguments around here how about understanding it before you put in your
worthless comments.
All the best to you,
Tom