"Women by Command to be "Silent in the Church"", is a Biblical
Brenda G. Tataryn
Women will still speak in Church and will never shut up.
Oh man! there goes the neighbourhood.
Brenda
Mike Barefield
Well it is okay if they prophesy:
Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will
pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters
shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men
shall dream dreams:
And when it comes right down to it, we are all the same in Christ.
Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond
nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ
Jesus.
Mike
Pastor Dave
<littl...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>
>"Brenda G. Tataryn" wrote:
>>
>> ya know....whether the Bible says it or not.
>> Women will still speak in Church and will never shut up.
>> Oh man! there goes the neighbourhood.
>> Brenda
>
>Well it is okay if they prophesy:
>
>Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will
>pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters
>shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men
>shall dream dreams:
It doesn't say to do that in church.
>And when it comes right down to it, we are all the same in Christ.
>
>Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond
>nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ
>Jesus.
You are quoting that out of context.
--
In Christ,
Pastor Dave
"As for me, I have not hastened from being a pastor
to follow thee: neither have I desired the woeful
day; thou knowest: that which came out of my lips
was right before thee." - Jeremiah 17:16
Disclaimer: My use of caps is not meant as shouting,
but only to emphasize, unless you see exclamation
marks after the sentence and then, more than one.
Mike Barefield
Pastor Dave wrote:
>
> On Sun, 08 Oct 2000 16:31:51 -0600, Mike Barefield
> <littl...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >"Brenda G. Tataryn" wrote:
> >>
> >> ya know....whether the Bible says it or not.
> >> Women will still speak in Church and will never shut up.
> >> Oh man! there goes the neighbourhood.
> >> Brenda
> >
> >Well it is okay if they prophesy:
> >
> >Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will
> >pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters
> >shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men
> >shall dream dreams:
>
> It doesn't say to do that in church.
Where else would she do so? Are you saying that she can do what a man
does, she just has to stand outside the building? Oh please!
>
> >And when it comes right down to it, we are all the same in Christ.
> >
> >Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond
> >nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ
> >Jesus.
>
> You are quoting that out of context.
No, I don't think so. You read it and tell me where I am missing it.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on
Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free,
there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs
according to the promise.
Looks right to me.
Mike
Chris Sutton
> according to the promise.
kinda throws out the argument that there's no difference between men and
women. It's talking about the inheritence of eternal life, and there's
Afterglow services (Calvary Chapel) and various other places to reveal
prophecy. I believe that women just shouldn't pastor, but can speak up in an
interactive meeting, of course. They don't have to be completely silent. I
just think that when they go up to teach, it won't be well-recieved by
probably the men who need Christ the most, because they won't be doing
anything but lusting the whole service.
--
[In the Last Days] Those who do wickedly
against the covenant he shall corrupt with
flattery; but the people who know their
God shall be strong, and carry out great
exploits.
--Daniel 11:32 NKJV
The Emissary
Pastor Dave <pcd...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:pjo3uso3dh63kb0td...@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 08 Oct 2000 16:31:51 -0600, Mike Barefield
> <littl...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >"Brenda G. Tataryn" wrote:
> >>
> >> ya know....whether the Bible says it or not.
> >> Women will still speak in Church and will never shut up.
> >> Oh man! there goes the neighbourhood.
> >> Brenda
> >
> >Well it is okay if they prophesy:
> >
> >Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will
> >pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters
> >shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men
> >shall dream dreams:
>
> It doesn't say to do that in church.
> >
> >Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond
> >nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ
> >Jesus.
>
> You are quoting that out of context.
Absolutely right Dave.
Galations 3:28.. "For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ
Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves
with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor
free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ
Jesus. Gal. 3:26-28 (NASB)
Of course 'all are one in Jesus Christ'. Those who are immersed into Christ
are all heirs according to the promise of being put right with God through
Jesus.
But both male and female have their roles to fufill as commanded by the
Word of God.
Proof! "There is neither SLAVE nor FREE man"
Now, did that mean slaves could refuse to obey their masters? because they
where now free 'in Christ' [ ie. free from the consequences of their
previous sinful state (Condemned to death) before they where baptized ] of
course not, and if this had been the case, surely Paul would have insisted
that all Christian 'Slave owners' released or stop demanding obedience to
their orders.. Yet what do we find?
"Slaves, obey your masters; be eager to give them your very best. Serve them
as you would Christ. Don't work hard only when your master is watching and
then shirk when he isn't looking; work hard and with gladness all the time,
as though working for Christ, doing the will of God with all your hearts.
Remember, the Lord will pay you for each good thing you do, whether you are
slave or free." Eph 6:5-8 (LB)
"Exhort servants to be obedient unto their own masters, and to please them
well in all things; not answering again; 10 Not purloining, but shewing all
good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all
things. Titus 2:9-10 (KJV)
"Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy
of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed." 1
Tim 6:1 (KJV)
Now, where is there mention of Paul quoting, or advising slaves to say, in
pursuit of negating obedience to their masters. Oh! but hold on brethren
slave owners ! "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor
free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ
Jesus. Gal 3:26-28 (NASB).
Studied in its proper context you can see, it gives no reasoning or excuse
to abandon or disobey the Word of God in relation to the specific roles he
has given to both 'male and female, bond or free'.
Women fulfilling their roles in behaviour and deportment and obeying
scripture, is part of the their "Cross they have to bear".
Refusing to play the submissive role, Veiling themselves in prayer. [or if
they refuse, they must shave their head, how many women do we see without
head covering, shaved of their hair?] and remaining silent in the church,not
"usurping man's authority".1 Timothy 2:12.
Deliberate refusal to such implement such Apostolic "Tradition" and to obey
the "commandment of the Lord" on such an issue is "Willful sin"
Hebrews10:26.
which will bring terrible judgment on those so indulging, for such are
disobedient to God's express "Command" and therefore his declared Will on
this subject.
Indeed, Paul declares that if a person professes to be "Spiritual" or a
"Prophet" s/he must "Acknowledge" that what he states regarding a women's
"Silence" is a "Commandment of the Lord" not Paul's command, or the bearer
of this truth but "The Lord's".
Sadly, very few today will acknowledge such....Yet only a FOOL would dare
to refute and bring to nought one of his commandments.
I leave you all to draw your own conclusions why?.
"They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world
heareth them. We are of God" [Christ's Apostles and his special chosen 12
Disciples] "he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth
not us. Hereby
know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error. 1 John 4:5-6 (KJV)
Paul makes the situation very plain regarding a Women's place and
deportment in the Church of God and home, regardless of all the heretical
error now being preached by most denominations.
Let us look at what the Bible states is the correct doctrine over this
issue.
"The spirits of prophets are under the control of the prophets themselves.
God is not a God of confusion but a God of peace.
As is true in all the churches of God's people, women should keep quiet
in the church meetings. They are NOT allowed to speak,[Strong's Talk:
preach:] but they must yield to this rule as the law says.
If they want to learn something, they should ask their own husbands at
home. It is SHAMEFUL for a woman to SPEAK in the church meeting.
Did God's teaching come from you?
Or are you the only ones to whom it has come?
Those who think they are prophets OR SPIRITUAL PERSONS should understand
that what I am writing to you is the LORD'S COMMAND.
Those who ignore this will be IGNORED BY GOD" 1 Cor 14:34-38 (NCV)
Note. [Ignoring such a command then, means being "Ignored by God" which is
the just punishment for a denial of his command, for any other teaching is
sin, and acting the "false prophet" which is also blasphemy and Heresy. ]
This agrees in perspective as aforementioned with 1 Timothy 2:11-15.
"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a
woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the
woman being deceived was (first) in the transgression. Notwithstanding she
shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and
holiness with sobriety".
"Likewise, ye wive, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any
obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation
of the wives;
2 While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear.
3 Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair,
and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;
4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not
corruptible, even the ornament of a *Meek and Quiet Spirit,* which is in
the sight of God of great price.
5 For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in
God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:
6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him Lord: [Strongs: Lord: Master:
Sir] whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid
with any amazement.." 1 Peter 3:1-6 (KJV)
Now, today in most denominations they disagree! and cry ridicule on those
examples for Christ's true Sisters to follow and obey, because pride has
replaced God's revered Word.
As to a women being in "Silence" and such being a command of the Lord,
Paul was obviously ready for such any rebellious argument against such
"silence."
Indeed, the matter is so important he puts a severe
test or proof of a persons "spirituality" and their "Ignorance"..... in
fact if any disagreed, or "ignored this (command)" they would be "Ignored by
God"...
verse "36 Did God's teaching come from you? Or are you the only ones to
whom it has come? Those who think they are prophets or spiritual persons
should understand that what I am writing to you is the Lord's command."
Those who ignore this will be ignored by God."
1 Cor 14:33-38 (NCV)
So Irrespective of any scenario, the fact remains it is a "Commandment of
the Lord" that women keep silent in the Church" any other course is
rebellion to the Lord's command, and that is that.
Elders & Bishops where to be Men.
"5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order
the things that are wanting, and ordain Elders in every city, as I had
appointed thee:
[The qualifications of those chosen as ministers]
6 If any be blameless, the Husband of one wife, having faithful children
not accused of riot or unruly.
7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled,
not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre"
Titus 1:5-7 (KJV)
And another example.
"This is a true saying, If a Man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth
a good work.
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the Husband of one Wife, vigilant,
sober,
of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient,
not a brawler, not covetous;
4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection
with all gravity;
5 For if a Man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care
of the church of God? 1 Tim 3:1-5 (KJV)
Even Deacons refer to Men.
"Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much
wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience......Even so must
their WIVES be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all
things.
12 Let the deacons be the Husbands of ONE WIFE ruling
their children and their own houses well.
13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to
themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in
Christ
Jesus. 1 Tim 3:8-13 (KJV)
Any Apostolic command or instruction from the Lord is for the duration of
the dispensation disclosed. Whether the Law from Moses, or Christ's Law.
Moses Law was fulfilled. Christ Law is still operational. "Jesus Christ,
Today, Yesterday, the same for ever"
"For verily I (Jesus) say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or
one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.19
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall
teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but
whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the
kingdom of heaven." Matt 5:19 (KJV)
Christ verifies the length of time his commands and Apostolic instructions
are to be obeyed.
"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the
Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you :
and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen." Matt
28:19-20 (KJV)
So Christ's Law applys to the end of the World, or age, whenever that may
be.......even if it was 10,000 years in the future...
"Jesus Christ today, yesterday, and for ever"
Hope this helps.
The Emissary.
A final thought.
The greatest and most dangerous enemies to Christ are those who pretend to
be his friends, but are not faithful to his doctrine; and they are
unfaithful who from any point of personal interest (i.e.. Women's unlawful
"speaking & preaching in church" ?) would weaken the point of doctrine, or
soften it for the gratification of their natural feelings, or for fear of
hurting the feelings of the enemy, and so affecting their popularity with
him. ....
unicat
"Brenda G. Tataryn" wrote:
> ya know....whether the Bible says it or not.
> Women will still speak in Church and will never shut up.
....
Boy you got that part right. Why do you think that 75% of the Church
attendees in the US are women? Because staying at home
Sunday morning is the only time the husbands get a break from
their wife's yammering.
Why is it that women think that they're doing something brave
and revolutionary by forcing everyone around them to listen to them
gossip and nag everywhere they go?
Pastor Dave
<littl...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>
>Pastor Dave wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, 08 Oct 2000 16:31:51 -0600, Mike Barefield
>> <littl...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >"Brenda G. Tataryn" wrote:
>> >>
>> >> ya know....whether the Bible says it or not.
>> >> Women will still speak in Church and will never shut up.
>> >> Oh man! there goes the neighbourhood.
>> >> Brenda
>> >
>> >Well it is okay if they prophesy:
>> >
>> >Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will
>> >pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters
>> >shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men
>> >shall dream dreams:
>>
>> It doesn't say to do that in church.
>
>Where else would she do so? Are you saying that she can do what a man
>does, she just has to stand outside the building? Oh please!
Hmmmm, I do not see any Scripture quote in your answer.
Looks like this is your opinions, based on your own
inability to see beyond it. No offense. Just a
warning not to fall into that trap.
You cannot take one verse and build a doctrine on it.
Scripture must be interpreted as a whole. While in
Heaven, we may not have any difference, on Earth, we
all still have roles to fill.
First of all... "And the spirits of the prophets are
subject to the prophets. (1 Cor 14:32)". The woman who
prophesies does not HAVE to speak in church.
Now, let's look at some other verses about women in
church.....
"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is
not permitted unto them to speak; but they are
commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the
law." - 1 Corinthians 14:34
1 Timothy 2:11-12
11) Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12) But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp
authority over the man, but to be in silence.
The verses say very clearly for the women to be silent
in the churches. Period.
>> >And when it comes right down to it, we are all the same in Christ.
>> >
>> >Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond
>> >nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ
>> >Jesus.
>>
>> You are quoting that out of context.
>
>No, I don't think so. You read it and tell me where I am missing it.
>
>25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
>26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
>27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on
>Christ.
>28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free,
>there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
>29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs
>according to the promise.
>
>
>Looks right to me.
TO YOU. But does it look right to God? Not at all,
since it is taken out of context. In spirit, the above
is true. As for our physical roles on Earth, the women
are to be in subjection to their husbands and are to be
silent in the churches.
While you, or someone else may not like that, your
dispute is not with me, but with God. I didn't write
this stuff, I just quote it. :)
Also, see, "The Emmissary"'s post. He covered this
quite well.
Pastor Dave
<sutt...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs
>> according to the promise.
>
>kinda throws out the argument that there's no difference between men and
>women. It's talking about the inheritence of eternal life, and there's
>Afterglow services (Calvary Chapel) and various other places to reveal
>prophecy. I believe that women just shouldn't pastor, but can speak up in an
>interactive meeting, of course. They don't have to be completely silent.
"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is
not permitted unto them to speak; but they are
commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the
law." - 1 Corinthians 14:34
Mike Barefield
> "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is
> not permitted unto them to speak; but they are
> commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the
> law." - 1 Corinthians 14:34
>
> 1 Timothy 2:11-12
>
> 11) Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
> 12) But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp
> authority over the man, but to be in silence.
>
> The verses say very clearly for the women to be silent
> in the churches. Period.
>
> >> >And when it comes right down to it, we are all the same in Christ.
> >> >
> >> >Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond
> >> >nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ
> >> >Jesus.
> >>
> >> You are quoting that out of context.
> >
> >No, I don't think so. You read it and tell me where I am missing it.
> >
> >25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
> >26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
> >27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on
> >Christ.
> >28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free,
> >there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
> >29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs
> >according to the promise.
> >
> >
> >Looks right to me.
>
> TO YOU. But does it look right to God? Not at all,
> since it is taken out of context.
I printed the context. Tell me where I am missing it. We are all the
same in Christ. Yes there are roles. I am a man, I cannot have a
baby. I get that, but we are discussing spiritial things in the church
and there is no difference when it comes to spiritual things in the
church.
> In spirit, the above
> is true. As for our physical roles on Earth, the women
> are to be in subjection to their husbands and are to be
> silent in the churches.
>
> While you, or someone else may not like that, your
> dispute is not with me, but with God. I didn't write
> this stuff, I just quote it. :)
>
> Also, see, "The Emmissary"'s post. He covered this
> quite well.
>
> --
> In Christ,
>
> Pastor Dave
>
Let me ask you a few questions to see if you really believe this. Who
do you believe is the church? Men? Women? Children? Do you allow women
to teach women? Do you allow women to teach children? Do they do it in
church?
Your church might be different, but I have not seen one yet that do not
allow women to speak in church. They pray, they read their Bibles, they
speak, they teach, they sing. Where exactly do you draw the line.
Mike
Gene Austin
>
In article <39e0...@news.victoria.tc.ca>,
wt...@victoria.tc.ca (Brenda G. Tataryn) wrote:
> ya know....whether the Bible says it or not.
> Women will still speak in Church and will never shut up.
> Oh man! there goes the neighbourhood.
> Brenda
<<<><
try to minister, or take part in the government of the church. Their
teaching minister is at home with their children. Also, woman, as well
as men can have and use the gifts of the Spirit in the assembly, but
expression of the gifts must be performed in divine order.
<
--
Gene Austin
The Grace Of God In Truth
<http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Aegean/2490/index.html>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
matthieu.rimmely
Dave wrote :
>
> "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is
> not permitted unto them to speak; but they are
> commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the
> law." - 1 Corinthians 14:34
The passage in 1 Corinthians 14 deals mostly with women LEARNING, not
teaching. Again, 1 Tim 2/11 says "Let the woman learn in silence..."
"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto
them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith
the law. And if they will learn anything, let them ask their husbands at
home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." - 1 Cor 14/34-35
The unlearned women often interrupted the services with questions, and
comments. Paul addressed these *interruptions*, pointing out that the
subjection of woman to husband also required the husband and wife to act in
such a way that order was maintained in the church. ("it is a shame for
women to speak in the church")
The distractions were to be brought in under reign of the husband, where he
could fulfill his responsibility by teaching these issues at home (much as
Adam ought to have:) ("...let them ask their husbands at home..." )
In these days, those who ignorantly maintain an absolute prohibition
against women in public ministry must do so in clear defiance of the Word of
God. Ignorance serves as an excuse to the untaught, but to seriously malign
the female half of the human race unscripturally, and in so doing make
accusation against the Church of the Living God is poorly motivated to say
the least. We feel no reluctance to apply the highly charged and often
overused term, "sexist" to such commentary.
To see women minister in missionary, and evangelistic work labouring
tirelessly, giving their lives in establishing churches is awe inspiring.
And, it is truly Apostolic. Let God have his way in every life, and let
everything be done properly!
matthieu.rimmely
Dave wrote :
>
> 1 Timothy 2:11-12
>
> 11) Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
> 12) But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp
> authority over the man, but to be in silence.
>
>
> The verses say very clearly for the women to be silent
> in the churches. Period.
What does this passage mean? First, what does it not mean:
(1) It does not mean that a woman cannot prophesy. The prophecy of Joel
fulfilled at Pentecost according to the demonstration of the Spirit and the
preaching of Acts 2/17-18 clearly indicates an inclusion of women to be used
in prophecy.
Where? Some will say "in private". However we realize that prophecy is for
the edification of the church (1 Corinthians 14/3-4). Acts 12/9 reveals
Philip's daughters as prophetesses. It was renowned that these four women
prophesied.
Since prophecy is the use of a human vessel for speaking the direct word of
God under the unction of the Holy Ghost, anointed teaching and preaching
cannot be excluded from the ministry of women, scripturally.
(2) 2 Tim 2/11-12 does not mean women cannot pray, or that they should pray
silently. 1 Cor 11/4-5 indicates that the head of the woman must be covered
so as to properly honor her head WHILE praying. Furthermore, the same verse
connects prophesying, and incorporates the same criteria. Speaking to the
church in edification and comfort while under subject to headship is
evidently depicted as a common operation of women in the of the ordained
church.
(3) It does not mean that a woman cannot teach. In Titus 2/3-4 scriptural
circumstances depicting women as teachers is given. Also, if expounding and
teaching can be considered synonymous (I hope it is in my ministry:),
Priscilla and her husband Aquilla did indeed teach one of the great
apostolic preachers of the first generation, Apollos (Acts 18/26).
Thus, we can conclude that the *silence* cautioned by Paul in the scripture
text does NOT exclude women from exercising scripturally endorsed ministry.
As with men, there are conditions for such ministry, and they need to be
understood and not neglected 'lest confusion and damage result.
So, then to what DOES 1 Tim 2/11-12 refer?
In 1 Tim 2/11, the silence is to be "with all subjection". This qualifies
the silence. Verse 12 elaborates on the reason. "... I suffer not a woman to
teach, nor to usurp authority over the man.." As we have seen the
ministries are available to women, but not unless she is under authority to
a man.
We do not have General Board members who are women, as there is no need,
however, under the authority of the presbytery, women have been pastors, and
of course, powerful missionaries. Often, women are willing to do things to
which men will not rise, and are ordained of God as an example of godliness
and SUBMISSION, which the men who default in their responsibility and
holiness are not a party. Men who are not under authority and as useless and
unscriptural as women who are not.
So, the restriction to a woman's use in the ministry or in public meeting,
is that such ministry must be under the authority of men. Our problem
though, sometimes arises with MEN who do not WANT to be under ANY authority
and will therefor use these verses as excuse for their own rebellion. I know
of one such man who fed the rebellion of his heart when his pastor's
daughter was appointed to lead a music ministry. Rather than praying
through, and working in harmony with the pastor, who of course, his daughter
represented in this case, the man determined that the pastor's ministry was
unscriptural. It is clear that he was seeking an excuse for defiance, for
the answer is never in rebellion. In such cases, improper and partial
readings of the scripture are used to attempt to bolster the "case" of such
individuals, but the Bible allows no contention over such matters.
matthieu.rimmely
> To see women minister in missionary, and evangelistic work labouring
> tirelessly, giving their lives in establishing churches is awe inspiring.
> And, it is truly Apostolic.
The writer is Rev. David F. Gray
God Bless...
matthieu.rimmely
> teaching can be considered synonymous (I hope it is in my ministry:),
The writer is Rev. David F. Gray.
The Lord Bless You...
Pastor Dave
<littl...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>
>Pastor Dave wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, 09 Oct 2000 20:05:05 -0600, Mike Barefield
>> <littl...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >Pastor Dave wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On Sun, 08 Oct 2000 16:31:51 -0600, Mike Barefield
>> >> <littl...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >"Brenda G. Tataryn" wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> ya know....whether the Bible says it or not.
>> >> >> Women will still speak in Church and will never shut up.
>> >> >> Oh man! there goes the neighbourhood.
>> >> >> Brenda
>> >> >
>> >> >Well it is okay if they prophesy:
>> >> >
>> >> >Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will
>> >> >pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters
>> >> >shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men
>> >> >shall dream dreams:
>> >>
>> >> It doesn't say to do that in church.
>> >
>> >Where else would she do so? Are you saying that she can do what a man
>> >does, she just has to stand outside the building? Oh please!
>>
>> Hmmmm, I do not see any Scripture quote in your answer.
>> Looks like this is your opinions, based on your own
>> inability to see beyond it. No offense. Just a
>> warning not to fall into that trap.
>>
>> You cannot take one verse and build a doctrine on it.
>> Scripture must be interpreted as a whole. While in
>> Heaven, we may not have any difference, on Earth, we
>> all still have roles to fill.
>>
>> First of all... "And the spirits of the prophets are
>> subject to the prophets. (1 Cor 14:32)". The woman who
>> prophesies does not HAVE to speak in church.
>>
>> Now, let's look at some other verses about women in
>> church.....
>>
>> "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is
>> not permitted unto them to speak; but they are
>> commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the
>> law." - 1 Corinthians 14:34
>>
>> 1 Timothy 2:11-12
>>
>> 11) Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
>> 12) But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp
>> authority over the man, but to be in silence.
>>
>> The verses say very clearly for the women to be silent
>> in the churches. Period.
>>
>> >> >And when it comes right down to it, we are all the same in Christ.
>> >> >
>> >> >Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond
>> >> >nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ
>> >> >Jesus.
>> >>
>> >> You are quoting that out of context.
>> >
>> >No, I don't think so. You read it and tell me where I am missing it.
>> >
>> >25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
>> >26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
>> >27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on
>> >Christ.
>> >28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free,
>> >there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
>> >29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs
>> >according to the promise.
>> >
>> >
>> >Looks right to me.
>>
>> TO YOU. But does it look right to God? Not at all,
>> since it is taken out of context.
>
>I printed the context. Tell me where I am missing it. We are all the
>same in Christ. Yes there are roles. I am a man, I cannot have a
>baby. I get that, but we are discussing spiritial things in the church
>and there is no difference when it comes to spiritual things in the
>church.
Scripture says that there is a difference in the roles
of men and women in church. I quoted the verses above.
Context is not limited to one chapter. You cannot take
one chapter and then throw out all of the other
passages from elsewhere in Scripture, simply because
they don't agree with what you're saying. If they seem
to contradict what you're saying, then you must be
misinterpreting them. Frankly, I have not seen you
deal with those other passages as of yet. Here they
are again.
--
In Christ,
Pastor Dave
Pastor Dave
<gene_...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>Gene Austin <gene_...@my-deja.com> responds to Brenda G. Tataryn:"
>>
>In article <39e0...@news.victoria.tc.ca>,
> wt...@victoria.tc.ca (Brenda G. Tataryn) wrote:
>> ya know....whether the Bible says it or not.
>> Women will still speak in Church and will never shut up.
>> Oh man! there goes the neighbourhood.
>> Brenda
><<<><
>Gene> Brenda, christian women can speak in the assembly if they do not
>try to minister, or take part in the government of the church.
Scripture does not say that, but rather, commands them
to be "SILENT" in the church.
Mark Bassett
"matthieu.rimmely" <matthieu...@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:8rvd3b$m8s$2...@wanadoo.fr...
Thnak you for publishing this excellent response Matthieu
REPOST....
> 1 Timothy 2:11-12
>
> 11) Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
> 12) But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp
> authority over the man, but to be in silence.
>
>
> The verses say very clearly for the women to be silent
> in the churches. Period.
What does this passage mean? First, what does it not mean:
(1) It does not mean that a woman cannot prophesy. The prophecy of Joel
fulfilled at Pentecost according to the demonstration of the Spirit and the
preaching of Acts 2/17-18 clearly indicates an inclusion of women to be used
in prophecy.
Where? Some will say "in private". However we realize that prophecy is for
the edification of the church (1 Corinthians 14/3-4). Acts 12/9 reveals
Philip's daughters as prophetesses. It was renowned that these four women
prophesied.
Since prophecy is the use of a human vessel for speaking the direct word of
God under the unction of the Holy Ghost, anointed teaching and preaching
cannot be excluded from the ministry of women, scripturally.
(2) 2 Tim 2/11-12 does not mean women cannot pray, or that they should pray
silently. 1 Cor 11/4-5 indicates that the head of the woman must be covered
so as to properly honor her head WHILE praying. Furthermore, the same verse
connects prophesying, and incorporates the same criteria. Speaking to the
church in edification and comfort while under subject to headship is
evidently depicted as a common operation of women in the of the ordained
church.
(3) It does not mean that a woman cannot teach. In Titus 2/3-4 scriptural
circumstances depicting women as teachers is given. Also, if expounding and
teaching can be considered synonymous (I hope it is in my ministry:),
The Emissary
>
> > To see women minister in missionary, and evangelistic work labouring
> > tirelessly, giving their lives in establishing churches is awe
inspiring.
> > And, it is truly Apostolic.
>
The man is a blaspheming Heretic preaching such unscriptural lies...
BTW. no man is a 'Reverend' [deserving reverence] only God.
The Emissary.
Brenda G. Tataryn
> Re: "Women by Command to be "Silent in the Church"", is a Biblical
>
> From: Gene Austin <gene_...@my-deja.com>
> Reply to: [1] Gene Austin
> Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 14:30:59 GMT
> Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy.
>
>Gene Austin <gene_...@my-deja.com> responds to Brenda G. Tataryn:"
>>
> wt...@victoria.tc.ca (Brenda G. Tataryn) wrote:
>> ya know....whether the Bible says it or not.
>> Women will still speak in Church and will never shut up.
>> Oh man! there goes the neighbourhood.
>> Brenda
><<<><
>Gene> Brenda, christian women can speak in the assembly if they do not
>teaching minister is at home with their children. Also, woman, as well
>as men can have and use the gifts of the Spirit in the assembly, but
>expression of the gifts must be performed in divine order.
><
>--
>Gene Austin
>The Grace Of God In Truth
****Earth to Gene....Earth to Gene...
It is now 2000 and you can come out of the Cave.
Rev Brenda.
>
>
>Sent via Deja.com [10] http://www.deja.com/
>Before you buy.
Brenda G. Tataryn
> Re: "Women by Command to be "Silent in the Church"", is a Biblical
>
> Reply to: [1] "The Emissary"
> Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 01:01:22 +0100
> Organization: ntlworld News Service
> Newsgroups:
> [2] alt.bible,
> [3] alt.christnet,
> [4] alt.christnet.theology,
> [5] alt.religion.christian,
> [6] alt.religion.christian.biblestudy,
> [7] alt.religion.christian.methodist,
> [8] alt.religion.christian.pentecostal
> Followup to: [9] newsgroup(s)
> References:
> [10] <39e0...@news.victoria.tc.ca>
> [11] <39E0F5D7...@mindspring.com>
> [12] <pjo3uso3dh63kb0td...@4ax.com>
>
>[13] news:pjo3uso3dh63kb0td...@4ax.com...
> "speaking & preaching in church" ?) would weaken the point of doctrine, or
> soften it for the gratification of their natural feelings, or for fear of
> hurting the feelings of the enemy, and so affecting their popularity with
> him. ....
**** your opinion Elmer...Jesus loves me this I know...for my heart does
tell me so.
Rev.Brenda
Chris Sutton
rightfully so. They shouldn't be chained to a stove. They need rights, but a
line has to be drawn. You can't just call men and women equal. Women in
combat , for example, are way incapable, no matter how "open minded" you
are, because women are just not as strong as men. period. Not to mention
what would happen to them if they became POWs...Women need rights, but not
to be men.
Mike Barefield
Pastor Dave wrote:
> Scripture says that there is a difference in the roles
> of men and women in church. I quoted the verses above.
> Context is not limited to one chapter. You cannot take
> one chapter and then throw out all of the other
> passages from elsewhere in Scripture, simply because
> they don't agree with what you're saying. If they seem
> to contradict what you're saying, then you must be
> misinterpreting them. Frankly, I have not seen you
> deal with those other passages as of yet. Here they
> are again.
>
> --
> In Christ,
>
> Pastor Dave
Pastor Dave, by the way, are you a real pastor? If so, what
denomination?
There are roles in the church, for example:
Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and
some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
If you read this in context there is no probation against women holding
these positions or roles.
To speak directly to the passages where you declare women cannot speak
at all...
1 Corinthians 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it
is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under
obedience, as also saith the law. 35 And if they will learn any thing,
let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to
speak in the church.
In context this refers to women in a "learning" situation and is
speaking to them interrupting the "service" or "teaching time" or
"preaching time" with questions. This is a bit odd, if you think about
it. Services I have been to, no one interrupts except for an Amen. So
they must have been out of order and Paul says they should be in order.
I do not at all thinks this means that cannot hold office or teach or
preach or sing or pray, etc.
1 Timothy 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
Again, not allowed to interrupt - must have been common in those days.
1 Timothy 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp
authority over the man, but to be in silence.
The key here is to usurp authority. Now if a woman is in submission to
her husband and the Pastor or Elders, then she can teach. This is a
question of submission and authority - and it applies to men as well.
Now for my questions for you that you refused to answer from my last
post....
Who do you believe is the church? Men? Women? Children? Do you allow
women
to teach women? Do you allow women to teach children? Do they do it in
church?
Your church might be different, but I have not seen one yet that do not
allow women to speak in church. They pray, they read their Bibles, they
speak, they teach, they sing. Where exactly do you draw the line?
Mike
Chris Sutton
seems sexist, but that's what God said. Women don't really need rights to be
major leaders, because they can influence and seduce. Women have more power
than any man will ever have, whether they have rights or not.
Chris Sutton
emotional. Women are better at other things like comfort/counseling, but men
are better rulers.
Mike Barefield
Pastor Dave wrote:
>
> On Tue, 10 Oct 2000 18:21:42 -0600, Mike Barefield
> <littl...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >Pastor Dave wrote:
> >
> >> Scripture says that there is a difference in the roles
> >> of men and women in church. I quoted the verses above.
> >> Context is not limited to one chapter. You cannot take
> >> one chapter and then throw out all of the other
> >> passages from elsewhere in Scripture, simply because
> >> they don't agree with what you're saying. If they seem
> >> to contradict what you're saying, then you must be
> >> misinterpreting them. Frankly, I have not seen you
> >> deal with those other passages as of yet. Here they
> >> are again.
> >>
> >> --
> >> In Christ,
> >>
> >> Pastor Dave
> >
> >Pastor Dave, by the way, are you a real pastor?
>
> Yes.
>
> >If so, what denomination?
>
> None.
>
> >There are roles in the church, for example:
> >
> >Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and
> >some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
> >
> >If you read this in context there is no probation against women holding
> >these positions or roles.
> >
> >To speak directly to the passages where you declare women cannot speak
> >at all...
> >
> >1 Corinthians 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it
> >is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under
> >obedience, as also saith the law. 35 And if they will learn any thing,
> >let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to
> >speak in the church.
> >
> >In context this refers to women in a "learning" situation and is
> >speaking to them interrupting the "service" or "teaching time" or
> >"preaching time" with questions. This is a bit odd, if you think about
> >it. Services I have been to, no one interrupts except for an Amen. So
> >they must have been out of order and Paul says they should be in order.
> >I do not at all thinks this means that cannot hold office or teach or
> >preach or sing or pray, etc.
>
> Read 1 Timothy 2:12.
I did and quoted it below.
>
> >1 Timothy 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
> >
> >Again, not allowed to interrupt - must have been common in those days.
> >
> >1 Timothy 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp
> >authority over the man, but to be in silence.
> >
> >The key here is to usurp authority. Now if a woman is in submission to
> >her husband and the Pastor or Elders, then she can teach. This is a
> >question of submission and authority - and it applies to men as well.
>
> It does not say that. It says, "NOR to teach". And
> usurping authority, simply means to have authority
> over. A teaching position would put her in authority
> over men.
>
> Again, note, it does not say, "don't teach if you're
> trying to take authority over the mans position".
>
> It says, "not to teach, NOR (separate thought now) to
> usurp authority over the man, BUT TO BE IN SILENCE".
>
> It does not say, "just don't speak if this or that is
> happening, but otherwise, go for it". It doesn't say,
> "I mean silence only when men are teaching".
So your belief is silence means silence - no exceptions, not even to
scream fire if there was one. Is that right?
>
> >Now for my questions for you that you refused to answer from my last
> >post....
> >
> >Who do you believe is the church? Men? Women? Children?
>
> All believers. However, that does not take away from
> the verses I quoted.
No, but it clarifies some things. And I assume therefore that you do
not call the church the building. Right? So any gathering of born
again believers would be a church meeting. Right?
>
> >Do you allow women to teach women?
>
> They are supposed to. But that is not done in a church
> meeting.
>
> Titus 2:3-4
>
> 3) The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour
> as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to
> much wine, teachers of good things;
> 4) That they may teach the young women to be sober, to
> love their husbands, to love their children,
But wouldn't that be against the rules, after all women are part of the
church. If there is a contradiction, then you must go back to your
original assumptions - they were wrong.
>
> >Do you allow women to teach children?
>
> They are supposed to. It is the job of both parents.
I mean in church, like Sunday school and the like. If you think they
should, then why is that not a violation of speaking in church?
>
> Fathers:
> "And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath:
> but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the
> Lord." - Ephesians 6:4
>
> Mothers:
> "I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear
> children, guide the house, give none occasion to the
> adversary to speak reproachfully." - 1 Timothy 5:14
>
> >Do they do it in church?
>
> No. They are not supposed to.
Children are part of the church right? And women teach them, right?
Then that is in violation of scripture according to your previous
interpretation because they would be speaking in church. Or else you do
not believe that children are in the church. Which is it?
>
> 1 Corinthians 14:34-35
>
> 34) Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it
> is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are
> commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
> 35) And if they will learn any thing, let them ask
> their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to
> speak in the church.
>
> "But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp
> authority over the man, but to be in silence."
> - 1 Timothy 2:12
>
> >Your church might be different, but I have not seen one yet that do not
> >allow women to speak in church. They pray, they read their Bibles, they
> >speak, they teach, they sing. Where exactly do you draw the line?
>
> You draw it where Scripture says to draw it. It isn't
> up to us. Never has been. It is up to God. Do you
> think what Paul wrote was popular with the church he
> sent the letter to? Think about it. He still sent it,
> didn't he?
I think it meant what I said above, so I don't think they were that
upset.
>
> What people do, does not equal what God says, usually.
I agree. I just think you are wrong in what you say.
> That does not mean that it is ok to disregard His Word,
> simply because it offends the feminist movement.
I am a man and far from a feminist. I am against pretty much everything
they are far except equal wages for equal work. They are trying to
usurp authority over all men as a general rule and they are wrong. But
women have a place in the church. Paul did not mean that they could not
speak at all. They are to teach, sing, pray, read scripture and even
preach ( I know many will disagree, but if authorities are set, then I
see no issues other than men like you being offended).
>
> --
> In Christ,
>
> Pastor Dave
>
Damien Harrison
"unicat" <uni...@olg.com> wrote in message news:39E296E7...@olg.com...
>
> Why is it that women think that they're doing something brave
> and revolutionary by forcing everyone around them to listen to them
> gossip and nag everywhere they go?
>
How many women have you met? One? Two? Sounds pretty sexist IMHO.
Harro.
Pastor Dave
<sutt...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>you poor decieved man. Women have much more rights than they used to, and
>rightfully so.
The Bible says what it says. God doesn't change, just
because it's not "PC" to tell women they are to submit
to their husbands.
Gene Austin
>
In article <m8e6usc590gtqokju...@4ax.com>,
Pastor Dave <pcd...@optonline.net> wrote:
> On Tue, 10 Oct 2000 14:30:59 GMT, Gene Austin
> <gene_...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> > wt...@victoria.tc.ca (Brenda G. Tataryn) wrote:
> >> ya know....whether the Bible says it or not.
> >> Women will still speak in Church and will never shut up.
> >> Oh man! there goes the neighbourhood.
> >> Brenda
> ><<<><
> >Gene> Brenda, christian women can speak in the assembly if they do
not
> >try to minister, or take part in the government of the church.
>
> to be "SILENT" in the church.
>
> In Christ,
>
> Pastor Dave
<<<><>
under the covenant of the law and the prophets with a Levitical
priesthood. All the elect in a spiritual sense, male/female are one
Spirit with Christ, and there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is
neither bond nor free, there is neither male or female: for you are all
one in Christ Jesus; Spirit of his Spirit, and Mind of his Mind. But
this does no mean they can participate in the ministry of government of
the assembly. Women can testify, and express the spiritual gifts in
their lives for the comforting, edifying and exhorting the people to
believe in God's faithfulness.
<<><>
> "As for me, I have not hastened from being a pastor
> to follow thee: neither have I desired the woeful
> day; thou knowest: that which came out of my lips
> was right before thee." - Jeremiah 17:16
>
> Disclaimer: My use of caps is not meant as shouting,
> but only to emphasize, unless you see exclamation
> marks after the sentence and then, more than one.
>
Gene Austin
The Grace Of God In Truth
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Pastor Dave
<littl...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>
>Pastor Dave wrote:
>
>> Scripture says that there is a difference in the roles
>> of men and women in church. I quoted the verses above.
>> Context is not limited to one chapter. You cannot take
>> one chapter and then throw out all of the other
>> passages from elsewhere in Scripture, simply because
>> they don't agree with what you're saying. If they seem
>> to contradict what you're saying, then you must be
>> misinterpreting them. Frankly, I have not seen you
>> deal with those other passages as of yet. Here they
>> are again.
>>
>> --
>> In Christ,
>>
>> Pastor Dave
>
>Pastor Dave, by the way, are you a real pastor?
Yes.
>If so, what denomination?
None.
>There are roles in the church, for example:
>
>Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and
>some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
>
>If you read this in context there is no probation against women holding
>these positions or roles.
>
>To speak directly to the passages where you declare women cannot speak
>at all...
>
>1 Corinthians 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it
>is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under
>obedience, as also saith the law. 35 And if they will learn any thing,
>let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to
>speak in the church.
>
>In context this refers to women in a "learning" situation and is
>speaking to them interrupting the "service" or "teaching time" or
>"preaching time" with questions. This is a bit odd, if you think about
>it. Services I have been to, no one interrupts except for an Amen. So
>they must have been out of order and Paul says they should be in order.
>I do not at all thinks this means that cannot hold office or teach or
>preach or sing or pray, etc.
Read 1 Timothy 2:12.
>1 Timothy 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
>
>Again, not allowed to interrupt - must have been common in those days.
>
>1 Timothy 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp
>authority over the man, but to be in silence.
>
>The key here is to usurp authority. Now if a woman is in submission to
>her husband and the Pastor or Elders, then she can teach. This is a
>question of submission and authority - and it applies to men as well.
It does not say that. It says, "NOR to teach". And
usurping authority, simply means to have authority
over. A teaching position would put her in authority
over men.
Again, note, it does not say, "don't teach if you're
trying to take authority over the mans position".
It says, "not to teach, NOR (separate thought now) to
usurp authority over the man, BUT TO BE IN SILENCE".
It does not say, "just don't speak if this or that is
happening, but otherwise, go for it". It doesn't say,
"I mean silence only when men are teaching".
>Now for my questions for you that you refused to answer from my last
>post....
>
>Who do you believe is the church? Men? Women? Children?
All believers. However, that does not take away from
the verses I quoted.
>Do you allow women to teach women?
They are supposed to. But that is not done in a church
meeting.
Titus 2:3-4
3) The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour
as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to
much wine, teachers of good things;
4) That they may teach the young women to be sober, to
love their husbands, to love their children,
>Do you allow women to teach children?
They are supposed to. It is the job of both parents.
Fathers:
"And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath:
but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the
Lord." - Ephesians 6:4
Mothers:
"I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear
children, guide the house, give none occasion to the
adversary to speak reproachfully." - 1 Timothy 5:14
>Do they do it in church?
No. They are not supposed to.
1 Corinthians 14:34-35
34) Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it
is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are
commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35) And if they will learn any thing, let them ask
their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to
speak in the church.
"But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp
authority over the man, but to be in silence."
- 1 Timothy 2:12
>Your church might be different, but I have not seen one yet that do not
>allow women to speak in church. They pray, they read their Bibles, they
>speak, they teach, they sing. Where exactly do you draw the line?
You draw it where Scripture says to draw it. It isn't
up to us. Never has been. It is up to God. Do you
think what Paul wrote was popular with the church he
sent the letter to? Think about it. He still sent it,
didn't he?
What people do, does not equal what God says, usually.
That does not mean that it is ok to disregard His Word,
simply because it offends the feminist movement.
--
In Christ,
Pastor Dave
Pastor Dave
<gene_...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>> Scripture does not say that, but rather, commands them
>> to be "SILENT" in the church.
>>
>> --
>> In Christ,
>>
>> Pastor Dave
><<<><>
>Gene> Things have changed since the MasterGod/servant relationship
>under the covenant of the law and the prophets with a Levitical
>priesthood. All the elect in a spiritual sense, male/female are one
>Spirit with Christ, and there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is
>neither bond nor free, there is neither male or female: for you are all
>one in Christ Jesus; Spirit of his Spirit, and Mind of his Mind. But
>this does no mean they can participate in the ministry of government of
>the assembly. Women can testify, and express the spiritual gifts in
>their lives for the comforting, edifying and exhorting the people to
>believe in God's faithfulness.
You misquote that Scripture and pit it against the
other NT passages. While, is spirit we may all be the
same in Christ, we all still have our roles to fill,
while here on earth and women are commanded to be
silent in church and in subjection to their husbands.
Imagine a house where things are supposedly "50/50" as
the feminist movement demands. Yea, that works well!
Sure!
--
In Christ,
Pastor Dave
Brenda G. Tataryn
> Re: "Women by Command to be "Silent in the Church"", is a Biblical
>
> Reply to: [1] "Chris Sutton"
> Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 16:29:22 -0700
> [15] <69a5uskcoqv4rbt1k...@4ax.com>
>
>you poor decieved man. Women have much more rights than they used to, and
>line has to be drawn. You can't just call men and women equal. Women in
>combat , for example, are way incapable, no matter how "open minded" you
*** why can't there just be a set of standards and if any sex meets
it..they can get in? Why separate it by sex? Pushing a button or flying a
jet does not take more strength than a woman has so what is the point?
I personally think anyone 18 and over who believes in the fight..should be
able to in some capacity..and those who don't should not have to.
Rev.Brenda
>are, because women are just not as strong as men. period. Not to mention
>what would happen to them if they became POWs...Women need rights, but not
>to be men.
>
Brenda G. Tataryn
> Re: "Women by Command to be "Silent in the Church"", is a Biblical
>
> Reply to: [1] Pastor Dave
> Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 00:14:43 GMT
>On Tue, 10 Oct 2000 16:29:22 -0700, "Chris Sutton"
><sutt...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>rightfully so.
>
>because it's not "PC" to tell women they are to submit
>to their husbands.
>
*** yeah the Bible say so..which is why the Bible is not the inerrant word
of God.
Rev.Brenda
Brenda G. Tataryn
> Re: "Women by Command to be "Silent in the Church"", is a Biblical
>
>
>Gene Austin <gene_...@my-deja.com> responds to Pastor Dave:"
>>
> Pastor Dave <pcd...@optonline.net> wrote:
>> On Tue, 10 Oct 2000 14:30:59 GMT, Gene Austin
>> <gene_...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Gene Austin <gene_...@my-deja.com> responds to Brenda G. Tataryn:"
>> >>
>> > wt...@victoria.tc.ca (Brenda G. Tataryn) wrote:
>> >> ya know....whether the Bible says it or not.
>> >> Women will still speak in Church and will never shut up.
>> >> Oh man! there goes the neighbourhood.
>> >> Brenda
>> ><<<><
>> >Gene> Brenda, christian women can speak in the assembly if they do
>not
>> >try to minister, or take part in the government of the church.
>>
>> to be "SILENT" in the church.
>>
>> In Christ,
>>
>> Pastor Dave
><<<><>
>under the covenant of the law and the prophets with a Levitical
>priesthood. All the elect in a spiritual sense, male/female are one
>Spirit with Christ, and there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is
>neither bond nor free, there is neither male or female: for you are all
>one in Christ Jesus; Spirit of his Spirit, and Mind of his Mind. But
>this does no mean they can participate in the ministry of government of
>the assembly. Women can testify, and express the spiritual gifts in
>their lives for the comforting, edifying and exhorting the people to
>believe in God's faithfulness.
*** uh huh...no male and no female yet "females" and "males" have
different roles based on their genitals. Hmmmmm .right.
Rev.Brenda
><<><>
>> "As for me, I have not hastened from being a pastor
>> to follow thee: neither have I desired the woeful
>> day; thou knowest: that which came out of my lips
>> was right before thee." - Jeremiah 17:16
>>
>> Disclaimer: My use of caps is not meant as shouting,
>> but only to emphasize, unless you see exclamation
>> marks after the sentence and then, more than one.
>>
>--
>Gene Austin
>The Grace Of God In Truth
><[12] http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Aegean/2490/index.html>
>
>
>Sent via Deja.com [13] http://www.deja.com/
>Before you buy.
Brenda G. Tataryn
How about common decency in treating all humans as equal?
You really slander God.
Rev.Brenda
Brenda G. Tataryn
> Re: "Women by Command to be "Silent in the Church"", is a Biblical
>
>
>On Wed, 11 Oct 2000 00:23:17 GMT, Gene Austin
><gene_...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
>
>>> Scripture does not say that, but rather, commands them
>>> to be "SILENT" in the church.
**** which is why it is anti God.
>>>
>>> --
>>> In Christ,
>>>
>>> Pastor Dave
>><<<><>
>>Gene> Things have changed since the MasterGod/servant relationship
>>under the covenant of the law and the prophets with a Levitical
>>priesthood. All the elect in a spiritual sense, male/female are one
>>Spirit with Christ, and there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is
>>neither bond nor free, there is neither male or female: for you are all
>>one in Christ Jesus; Spirit of his Spirit, and Mind of his Mind. But
>>this does no mean they can participate in the ministry of government of
>>the assembly. Women can testify, and express the spiritual gifts in
>>their lives for the comforting, edifying and exhorting the people to
>>believe in God's faithfulness.
>
>You misquote that Scripture and pit it against the
>other NT passages. While, is spirit we may all be the
>same in Christ, we all still have our roles to fill,
>while here on earth and women are commanded to be
>silent in church and in subjection to their husbands.
>Imagine a house where things are supposedly "50/50" as
>the feminist movement demands. Yea, that works well!
>Sure!
>
**** once again..not from God but from the Bible. 50/50 would
be great..Give it a try.
I have seen so called homes where the man is dominant...and the wife
usually has the black eyes to show for it.
What an asshole.
REv.Brenda
>
>--
>In Christ,
>
>Pastor Dave
>
>
Brenda G. Tataryn
> Re: "Women by Command to be "Silent in the Church"", is a Biblical
>
>
>Yes, but women need to have rights, but just not like men do. I know it
>seems sexist, but that's what God said. Women don't really need rights to be
>major leaders, because they can influence and seduce. Women have more power
>than any man will ever have, whether they have rights or not.
>
*** uh huh. So tell that to women who are abused and tortured just
for being women. Tell that to women who suffer FGM (female Genital
mutilation)....Women don't need rights? Why should they have to seduce?
Grab a brain...
yeesh.
REv.Brenda
The Emissary
Mike Barefield <littl...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:39E3C055...@mindspring.com...
> So your belief is silence means silence - no exceptions, not even to
> scream fire if there was one. Is that right?
Right, she can always nudge her husband and point to the fire, if a man
hadn't already seen it anyready.
The Emissary.
Mike Barefield
The Emissary wrote:
>
> Mike Barefield <littl...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
> news:39E3C055...@mindspring.com...
>
> > So your belief is silence means silence - no exceptions, not even to
> > scream fire if there was one. Is that right?
>
> Right, she can always nudge her husband and point to the fire, if a man
> hadn't already seen it anyready.
>
> The Emissary.
I hope that was meant to be a joke. If not you people are out there on
the edge of nowhere screaming you have something that no one else has -
cult.
Mike
Pastor Dave
<har...@netspace.net.au> wrote:
>
>"Pastor Dave" <pcd...@optonline.net> wrote in message
>news:pub7usot4334bfrre...@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 10 Oct 2000 16:29:22 -0700, "Chris Sutton"
>> <sutt...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >you poor decieved man. Women have much more rights than they used to, and
>> >rightfully so.
>>
>> The Bible says what it says. God doesn't change, just
>> because it's not "PC" to tell women they are to submit
>> to their husbands.
>
>People often forget that the husbands have to love their wives as Christ
>loved the Church. As far as I remember, Christ was willing to die for His
>church. He was the perfect servant for her as well. Just food for thought.
Absolutely. I said that we all have our roles here.
The topic just happened to be about women.
Pastor Dave
<littl...@mindspring.com> wrote:
Now you are trying to take it to the point of
absurdity, to try to win an argument that you cannot
win. Scripture says what it says. The verses have
been quoted. If you argue otherwise, then you deny
God's Word. It's that simple. Your argument is not
with me, but with God. I didn't write this stuff.
From the Greek, it is "hesuchia" and means, "silence",
or "quietness".
>> >Now for my questions for you that you refused to answer from my last
>> >post....
>> >
>> >Who do you believe is the church? Men? Women? Children?
>>
>> All believers. However, that does not take away from
>> the verses I quoted.
>
>No, but it clarifies some things. And I assume therefore that you do
>not call the church the building. Right?
It was usually done in someone's house. Remember, they
were being persecuted.
>So any gathering of born
>again believers would be a church meeting. Right?
Not necessarily. Sometimes believers get together
simply to study the Bible. While it can be said that
they are "having some church" right then and there, in
reality, there were appointed times and places to meet
for church sessions.
>> >Do you allow women to teach women?
>>
>> They are supposed to. But that is not done in a church
>> meeting.
>>
>> Titus 2:3-4
>>
>> 3) The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour
>> as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to
>> much wine, teachers of good things;
>> 4) That they may teach the young women to be sober, to
>> love their husbands, to love their children,
>
>But wouldn't that be against the rules, after all women are part of the
>church. If there is a contradiction, then you must go back to your
>original assumptions - they were wrong.
1) There is no contradiction. The above passage is not
speaking of a church setting. You are simply making
one up, in an attempt to try to negate the passages
that don't suit your own personal beliefs. I would
suggest that you approach the Word of God humbly,
instead of trying to impose your own beliefs on God.
We are not to try to teach God, but rather, let Him
teach us, through the Holy Spirit, if indeed, it lives
within us.
2) They are not "my assumptions". I have not made one
single assumption here. I have quoted the Scripture,
word for word and echoed exactly what it says, very
clearly. You are trying to interpret something that is
not open to interpretation. How do you interpret the
word "silence" out of the passage?
3) It is the role of women to teach women. But when in
church, the women are to "learn in silence, with all
subjection". Read those words very carefully.
>> >Do you allow women to teach children?
>>
>> They are supposed to. It is the job of both parents.
>
>I mean in church, like Sunday school and the like. If you think they
>should, then why is that not a violation of speaking in church?
Church sessions are covered in the verse I provided.
"Sunday school" is an invention of ours and is not a
"church session".
>> Fathers:
>> "And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath:
>> but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the
>> Lord." - Ephesians 6:4
>>
>> Mothers:
>> "I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear
>> children, guide the house, give none occasion to the
>> adversary to speak reproachfully." - 1 Timothy 5:14
>>
>> >Do they do it in church?
>>
>> No. They are not supposed to.
>
>Children are part of the church right? And women teach them, right?
>Then that is in violation of scripture according to your previous
>interpretation because they would be speaking in church. Or else you do
>not believe that children are in the church. Which is it?
Again, you try to come around the long way, to avoid
dealing with the passages quoted about women being
silent in the church (which is discussing a church
session). Just because a woman is a member of a
church, does not mean that she can never speak at all,
anywhere, nor does Scripture imply that. That thought
is of your own invention.
>> 1 Corinthians 14:34-35
>>
>> 34) Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it
>> is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are
>> commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
>> 35) And if they will learn any thing, let them ask
>> their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to
>> speak in the church.
>>
>> "But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp
>> authority over the man, but to be in silence."
>> - 1 Timothy 2:12
>>
>> >Your church might be different, but I have not seen one yet that do not
>> >allow women to speak in church. They pray, they read their Bibles, they
>> >speak, they teach, they sing. Where exactly do you draw the line?
>>
>> You draw it where Scripture says to draw it. It isn't
>> up to us. Never has been. It is up to God. Do you
>> think what Paul wrote was popular with the church he
>> sent the letter to? Think about it. He still sent it,
>> didn't he?
>
>I think it meant what I said above, so I don't think they were that
>upset.
Really? You had women speaking and trying to take
control of a situation, whether by trying to speak over
men, in prophecy, etc., yet you don't think they'd be
upset by Paul telling them to shut up?
>> What people do, does not equal what God says, usually.
>
>I agree. I just think you are wrong in what you say.
You have not given me any reason to think so. I have
quoted Scripture. What you have done, is to try to
avoid it.
>> That does not mean that it is ok to disregard His Word,
>> simply because it offends the feminist movement.
>
>I am a man and far from a feminist. I am against pretty much everything
>they are far except equal wages for equal work. They are trying to
>usurp authority over all men as a general rule and they are wrong. But
>women have a place in the church. Paul did not mean that they could not
>speak at all. They are to teach, sing, pray, read scripture and even
>preach ( I know many will disagree, but if authorities are set, then I
>see no issues other than men like you being offended).
I am offended when someone tries to tell me that God's
Word is negated by their own personal beliefs.
Scripture speaks quite clearly about a woman's role in
church sessions and it says, "suffer a woman NOT to
teach". Now tell me, how is that NOT God's Word on the
matter? All of the qualifications for church offices
are listed for MEN, not women. Tell me, where are the
qualifications listed for a woman holding a church
office?
I never told you what I think. I merely quoted God's
Word and I agree with it. However, the key words in
your statement above, are , "I SEE". Take a lesson
from that.
Pastor Dave
(Brenda G. Tataryn) wrote:
>>
>> Re: "Women by Command to be "Silent in the Church"", is a Biblical
>>
>> From: "Chris Sutton" <sutt...@hotmail.com>
>> Reply to: [1] "Chris Sutton"
>> Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 16:29:22 -0700
>> [15] <69a5uskcoqv4rbt1k...@4ax.com>
>>
>>you poor decieved man. Women have much more rights than they used to, and
>>rightfully so. They shouldn't be chained to a stove. They need rights, but a
>>line has to be drawn. You can't just call men and women equal. Women in
>>combat , for example, are way incapable, no matter how "open minded" you
>
>*** why can't there just be a set of standards and if any sex meets
>it..they can get in? Why separate it by sex? Pushing a button or flying a
>jet does not take more strength than a woman has so what is the point?
>I personally think anyone 18 and over who believes in the fight..should be
>able to in some capacity..and those who don't should not have to.
>Rev.Brenda
The men don't usually get raped, when taken captive.
Pastor Dave
(Brenda G. Tataryn) wrote:
>>
>> Re: "Women by Command to be "Silent in the Church"", is a Biblical
>>
>> From: "Chris Sutton" <sutt...@hotmail.com>
>> Reply to: [1] "Chris Sutton"
>> Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 18:03:11 -0700
>>
>>Yes, but women need to have rights, but just not like men do. I know it
>>seems sexist, but that's what God said. Women don't really need rights to be
>>major leaders, because they can influence and seduce. Women have more power
>>than any man will ever have, whether they have rights or not.
>>
>
>*** uh huh. So tell that to women who are abused and tortured just
>for being women. Tell that to women who suffer FGM (female Genital
>mutilation)....
"Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved
the church, and gave himself for it;" - Ephesians 5:25
Brenda G. Tataryn
> Re: "Women by Command to be "Silent in the Church"", is a Biblical
>
>On Tue, 10 Oct 2000 19:20:21 -0600, Mike Barefield
><littl...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>Pastor Dave wrote:
>>>
>>> On Tue, 10 Oct 2000 18:21:42 -0600, Mike Barefield
>>> <littl...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >Pastor Dave wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> Scripture says that there is a difference in the roles
>>> >> of men and women in church. I quoted the verses above.
>>> >> Context is not limited to one chapter. You cannot take
>>> >> one chapter and then throw out all of the other
>>> >> passages from elsewhere in Scripture, simply because
>>> >> they don't agree with what you're saying. If they seem
>>> >> to contradict what you're saying, then you must be
>>> >> misinterpreting them. Frankly, I have not seen you
>>> >> deal with those other passages as of yet. Here they
>>> >> are again.
>>> >>
>>> >> In Christ,
>>> >>
>>> >> Pastor Dave
>>> >
****hmmmm Dave, the majority of the bible contradicts Jesus's
personality and love. If you can't see that...I know someday you will.
Rev.Brenda
Brenda G. Tataryn
> Re: "Women by Command to be "Silent in the Church"", is a Biblical
>
> From: Pastor Dave <pcd...@optonline.net>
> Reply to: [1] Pastor Dave
>On 11 Oct 2000 00:33:24 -0800, wt...@victoria.tc.ca
>(Brenda G. Tataryn) wrote:
>
>>>
>>>
>>> [15] <69a5uskcoqv4rbt1k...@4ax.com>
>>>
>>>you poor decieved man. Women have much more rights than they used to, and
>>>rightfully so. They shouldn't be chained to a stove. They need rights, but a
>>>line has to be drawn. You can't just call men and women equal. Women in
>>>combat , for example, are way incapable, no matter how "open minded" you
>>
>>*** why can't there just be a set of standards and if any sex meets
>>it..they can get in? Why separate it by sex? Pushing a button or flying a
>>jet does not take more strength than a woman has so what is the point?
>>I personally think anyone 18 and over who believes in the fight..should be
>>able to in some capacity..and those who don't should not have to.
>>Rev.Brenda
>
>The men don't usually get raped, when taken captive.
>
***** and? uh right...these preferred speakers for church..I see.
So once again genitals dick tate.
A warrior is a warrior.
Rev.Brenda
>--
>In Christ,
>
>Pastor Dave
>
>
Brenda G. Tataryn
> Re: "Women by Command to be "Silent in the Church"", is a Biblical
>
> From: Pastor Dave <pcd...@optonline.net>
> Reply to: [1] Pastor Dave
>
>On 11 Oct 2000 00:47:11 -0800, wt...@victoria.tc.ca
>(Brenda G. Tataryn) wrote:
>
>>>
>>> Re: "Women by Command to be "Silent in the Church"", is a Biblical
>>>
>>> From: "Chris Sutton" <sutt...@hotmail.com>
>>> Reply to: [1] "Chris Sutton"
>>>
>>>Yes, but women need to have rights, but just not like men do. I know it
>>>seems sexist, but that's what God said. Women don't really need rights to be
>>>major leaders, because they can influence and seduce. Women have more power
>>>than any man will ever have, whether they have rights or not.
>>>
>>
>>*** uh huh. So tell that to women who are abused and tortured just
>>for being women. Tell that to women who suffer FGM (female Genital
>>mutilation)....
>
>"Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved
>the church, and gave himself for it;" - Ephesians 5:25
>
**** Just don't let them act as if they are equal.
Tsk.
Bigotry is one of the reasons why the Church is losing more members
every day and Paganism is gaining them.
Listen to the Jesus in your heart...and not your pants.
Rockett Crawford
"matthieu.rimmely" wrote:
> Dave wrote :
> >
> > "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is
> > not permitted unto them to speak; but they are
> > commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the
> > law." - 1 Corinthians 14:34
>
> The passage in 1 Corinthians 14 deals mostly with women LEARNING, not
> teaching. Again, 1 Tim 2/11 says "Let the woman learn in silence..."
> "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto
> them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith
> the law. And if they will learn anything, let them ask their husbands at
> home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." - 1 Cor 14/34-35
>
> The unlearned women often interrupted the services with questions, and
> comments.
No, that's not right at all. Paul thought women shouldn't teach and should
be silent because according to him Eve was deceived, but not Adam.
In other words Paul thought women in general "leaned and unlearned"
have inferior judgment to men because of the Adam and Eve story.
(1 Tim 2:12 NRSV)
I permit no woman to* teach or to have authority over a man;* she is to keep silent.
(1 Tim 2:13-14 NRSV) For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was
*not deceived*, but the woman *was deceived* and became a transgressor.
Capella #5
150 bible errors, contradictions, atrocities, failed prophecies, etc...
http://web2.airmail.net/capella/aguide
Thanatos
"Pastor Dave" <pcd...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:q5e7uscj0bgcprgk6...@4ax.com...
Damien Harrison
> On Tue, 10 Oct 2000 16:29:22 -0700, "Chris Sutton"
> <sutt...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >you poor decieved man. Women have much more rights than they used to, and
> >rightfully so.
>
> The Bible says what it says. God doesn't change, just
> because it's not "PC" to tell women they are to submit
> to their husbands.
People often forget that the husbands have to love their wives as Christ
loved the Church. As far as I remember, Christ was willing to die for His
church. He was the perfect servant for her as well. Just food for thought.
Harro.
Damien Harrison
> >loved the Church. As far as I remember, Christ was willing to die for
His
> >church. He was the perfect servant for her as well. Just food for
thought.
>
> The topic just happened to be about women.
No worries Dave. I wasn't directing it at anyone in particular.
Harro.
unicat
Damien Harrison wrote:
>
> > Why is it that women think that they're doing something brave
> > and revolutionary by forcing everyone around them to listen to them
> > gossip and nag everywhere they go?
> >
>
> How many women have you met? One? Two? Sounds pretty sexist IMHO.
>
You should attend church more, then the wisdom of this post would be very
apparent
to you. That is, if your mommy lets you form your own opinions...
Damien Harrison
"Brenda G. Tataryn" <wt...@victoria.tc.ca> wrote in message
news:39e4...@news.victoria.tc.ca...
> >
>
> ****hmmmm Dave, the majority of the bible contradicts Jesus's
> personality and love. If you can't see that...I know someday you will.
> Rev.Brenda
You mean the majority of the Bible contradicts what you think Jesus should
be. It is this preconceived bias that has lead you to throw out the parts
that don't gel with your PC sensibilities.
Harro.
Damien Harrison
> >
> > From: Pastor Dave <pcd...@optonline.net>
> > Reply to: [1] Pastor Dave
> > Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 15:00:19 GMT
> >
> >On 11 Oct 2000 00:47:11 -0800, wt...@victoria.tc.ca
> >(Brenda G. Tataryn) wrote:
> >
> >>>
> >>> Re: "Women by Command to be "Silent in the Church"", is a
Biblical
> >>>
> >>> From: "Chris Sutton" <sutt...@hotmail.com>
> >>> Reply to: [1] "Chris Sutton"
> >>> Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 18:03:11 -0700
> >>>
> >>>Yes, but women need to have rights, but just not like men do. I know it
> >>>seems sexist, but that's what God said. Women don't really need rights
to be
> >>>major leaders, because they can influence and seduce. Women have more
power
> >>>than any man will ever have, whether they have rights or not.
> >>>
> >>
> >>*** uh huh. So tell that to women who are abused and tortured just
> >>for being women. Tell that to women who suffer FGM (female Genital
> >>mutilation)....
> >
> >"Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved
> >the church, and gave himself for it;" - Ephesians 5:25
> >
>
> **** Just don't let them act as if they are equal.
You're adding that, we aren't.
> Bigotry is one of the reasons why the Church is losing more members
> every day and Paganism is gaining them.
That's because people would rather make up the'r own rules and live in sin
than become slaves to the living God. No surprise to me.
> Listen to the Jesus in your heart...and not your pants.
Words to live by : )
Harro.
Damien Harrison
"unicat" <uni...@olg.com> wrote in message news:39E73FD2...@olg.com...
LOL. You cannot tell me that every woman you meet forces everyone around
them to listen to them and gossip and nag everywhere they go. It's
ridiculous. You assume what you want about me, but leave my "mommy" out of
it please. Women are just like every other identifiable group - some good,
some bad. Lumping them all together under the blanket statement of
gossipers and nags is... stupid IMHO.
Harro.
Ron Burdette
:
:
: "Brenda G. Tataryn" wrote:
: >
: > ya know....whether the Bible says it or not.
: > Women will still speak in Church and will never shut up.
: > Oh man! there goes the neighbourhood.
: > Brenda
: Well it is okay if they prophesy:
:
: Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will
: pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters
: shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men
: shall dream dreams:
No, it is not 'ok' if they prophesy; not in the Church age.
You have misinterpreted Acts 2:17 to support false
doctrine. Acts 2:17 does not apply to the Church age,
it applies to the upcoming 'millennial kingdom'. This is
going to be the only time that the Holy Spirit will be '
poured upon all flesh'.
This certainly isn't happening today, and has not happened
in the past.
In Acts 2:17, Peter is quoting the Prophet Joel's Prophecy
in Joel 2:28-32. Joel's Prohphecy will not be fulfilled until
the millenial kingdom and the final judgment.
Peter's message demonstrated that Pentecost was a pre-
fulfillment of Joel's Prophecy, a taste of things to come.
: And when it comes right down to it, we are all the same in Christ.
:
: Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond
: nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ
: Jesus.
You have taken Galatians 3:28 completely out of context.
These precepts do not teach in manner that woman has the
authority to teach or usurp power over man in the clergy.
God's Word is perfectly clear regarding the role for women
in the Church, preaching is not included.
Ever since the fall of woman in the Garden of Eden, she has
incessantly sought after things she has been taught which are
not hers to possess.
Had it not been for her prideful desires, she may not have
disobeyed God and been deceived by Satan.
Today, women have the written Word to guide them to
the way they should go and act; but few obey.
Most simply justify their sin of disobedience through some
rationalization that they are allegedly in God's will.
What does God desire? Does He desire some type of
Religious Work in His name?
No, but rather, God commands obedience.
Women allegedly ordained in certain forms of clergy are
outside the will of God and are willfully sinning.
1 Corinthians 2:15
But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
><>...Ron
Mike Barefield
Ron Burdette wrote:
>
> "Mike Barefield" <littl...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
> news:39E0F5D7...@mindspring.com...
> :
> :
> : Well it is okay if they prophesy:
> :
> : Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will
> : pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters
> : shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men
> : shall dream dreams:
>
> No, it is not 'ok' if they prophesy; not in the Church age.
How about this scripture to put this into more context.
Acts 21:8 ¶ And the next day we that were of Paul’s company departed,
and came unto Caesarea: and we entered into the house of Philip the
evangelist, which was one of the seven; and abode with him.
9 And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy.
> You have misinterpreted Acts 2:17 to support false
> doctrine. Acts 2:17 does not apply to the Church age,
> it applies to the upcoming 'millennial kingdom'.
No that do doubt is a doctrine of the group you are with, but you cannot
support if with scripture. Peter, by the Spirit of God used Joel's
prophesy in the book of Acts. It was not his idea but the Spirit's.
And it has been fulfilled and continues to be fulfilled. If those were
the last days and these are also the last days.
> This is
> going to be the only time that the Holy Spirit will be '
> poured upon all flesh'.
> This certainly isn't happening today, and has not happened
> in the past.
Note the verses above, it has happened.
> In Acts 2:17, Peter is quoting the Prophet Joel's Prophecy
> in Joel 2:28-32. Joel's Prohphecy will not be fulfilled until
> the millenial kingdom and the final judgment.
So says who? It is convenient to write it off, but there is no basis,
none presented except your opinion.
> Peter's message demonstrated that Pentecost was a pre-
> fulfillment of Joel's Prophecy, a taste of things to come.
On what basis?
>
> : And when it comes right down to it, we are all the same in Christ.
> :
> : Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond
> : nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ
> : Jesus.
>
> You have taken Galatians 3:28 completely out of context.
Actually no. The Spirit of God by the way of Paul, wanted us to know we
are all the same in Christ. It was a problem then and one now.
Everyone wants to be above, superior to someone else. You clearly like
that position by your comments below. The man, Adam, was with his wife
in the garden and having greater knowledge and authority let her be
tempted and lied to by Satan and then knowingly joined her in sin. Why
do we continued to blame Eve, when Adam was there.
> These precepts do not teach in manner that woman has the
> authority to teach or usurp power over man in the clergy.
I agree. But the scriptures in Timothy are not so much against teaching
and usurping authority. All authority is delegated authority. When
authority is delegated, not usurped, then there is no problem.
> God's Word is perfectly clear regarding the role for women
> in the Church, preaching is not included.
In your church, do women teach, speak, sing, read the Bible, etc. at
all? Or do they simply keep silent?
> Ever since the fall of woman in the Garden of Eden, she has
> incessantly sought after things she has been taught which are
> not hers to possess.
Why is the woman not freed by the blood of Christ as man is? Is the
blood of Christ week toward women?
> Had it not been for her prideful desires, she may not have
> disobeyed God and been deceived by Satan.
Adam was there. He rebelled against God.
Genesis 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and
that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one
wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her
husband with her; and he did eat.
Notice it says that she gave also unto her husband WITH HER.
> Today, women have the written Word to guide them to
> the way they should go and act; but few obey.
> Most simply justify their sin of disobedience through some
> rationalization that they are allegedly in God's will.
> What does God desire? Does He desire some type of
> Religious Work in His name?
> No, but rather, God commands obedience.
And your job is to keep them right, is that it?
Doug T
women as ministers debate decades ago. Therefore the topic is
irrelevant to this newsgroup. Thank you.
Regards,
Doug T
Ron Burdette wrote:
>
> "Mike Barefield" <littl...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
> news:39E0F5D7...@mindspring.com...
> :
> :
> : "Brenda G. Tataryn" wrote:
> : >
> : > ya know....whether the Bible says it or not.
> : > Women will still speak in Church and will never shut up.
> : > Oh man! there goes the neighbourhood.
> : > Brenda
> :
> : Well it is okay if they prophesy:
> :
> : Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will
> : pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters
> : shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men
> : shall dream dreams:
>
> No, it is not 'ok' if they prophesy; not in the Church age.
> You have misinterpreted Acts 2:17 to support false
> doctrine. Acts 2:17 does not apply to the Church age,
> it applies to the upcoming 'millennial kingdom'. This is
> going to be the only time that the Holy Spirit will be '
> poured upon all flesh'.
> This certainly isn't happening today, and has not happened
> in the past.
> In Acts 2:17, Peter is quoting the Prophet Joel's Prophecy
> in Joel 2:28-32. Joel's Prohphecy will not be fulfilled until
> the millenial kingdom and the final judgment.
> Peter's message demonstrated that Pentecost was a pre-
> fulfillment of Joel's Prophecy, a taste of things to come.
>
> : And when it comes right down to it, we are all the same in Christ.
> :
> : Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond
> : nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ
> : Jesus.
>
> You have taken Galatians 3:28 completely out of context.
> These precepts do not teach in manner that woman has the
> authority to teach or usurp power over man in the clergy.
> God's Word is perfectly clear regarding the role for women
> in the Church, preaching is not included.
> Ever since the fall of woman in the Garden of Eden, she has
> incessantly sought after things she has been taught which are
> not hers to possess.
> Had it not been for her prideful desires, she may not have
> disobeyed God and been deceived by Satan.
> Today, women have the written Word to guide them to
> the way they should go and act; but few obey.
> Most simply justify their sin of disobedience through some
> rationalization that they are allegedly in God's will.
> What does God desire? Does He desire some type of
> Religious Work in His name?
> No, but rather, God commands obedience.
Damien Harrison
"Ron Burdette" <RonaldB...@email.msn.com> wrote in message
news:#3r8IwdNAHA.316@cpmsnbbsa09...
>
> No, it is not 'ok' if they prophesy; not in the Church age.
> You have misinterpreted Acts 2:17 to support false
> doctrine. Acts 2:17 does not apply to the Church age,
Huh?! Paul was quoting it to explain why the Apostles looked drunk to the
others. The Spirit was poured out just before he said it.
> it applies to the upcoming 'millennial kingdom'. This is
> going to be the only time that the Holy Spirit will be '
> poured upon all flesh'.
> This certainly isn't happening today, and has not happened
> in the past.
I see it happening.
> In Acts 2:17, Peter is quoting the Prophet Joel's Prophecy
> in Joel 2:28-32.
That's right! Peter is obviously saying that it's being fulfilled right in
frnt of their eyes.
> Peter's message demonstrated that Pentecost was a pre-
> fulfillment of Joel's Prophecy, a taste of things to come.
"Pre-fulfillment"? Prove it.
Harro.
Damien Harrison
"Joe Brennan" <jgbr...@eisa.net.au> wrote in message
news:8sas3d$t3q$1...@news.eisa.net.au...
>
> Damien Harrison wrote in message <8s77tf$17c0$1...@otis.netspace.net.au>...
>
> >That's because people would rather make up the'r own rules and live in
sin
> >than become slaves to the living God. No surprise to me.
>
> Careful with the wording Harro, please!
> Children of God, heirs - not slaves.
> (Just being picky)
I understand the objection, but Scripture uses the word to describe us as
well (Rom 6:16-22). I'm picky as well.
: )
God bless.
Harro.
Damien Harrison
> Once again we have degenerated to name-calling and petty insults.
>
> Harro is right - leave it out.
Thanks buddy.
> Let's just deal with the question, and stop slandering each other.
>
> Remember the message of Jesus - it's by our love for each other that
people
> will know that we are His disciples.
Good advice.
Harro.
Rev. Steve Winter
>Please do not cross post to the methodist newsgroup. We have solved the
>women as ministers debate decades ago. Therefore the topic is
>irrelevant to this newsgroup. Thank you.
The methodists are having greater problems than that telling
the boys from the girls.
See http://www.onenessapostolic.org/Sewers.html for some Methodist
headlines.
Rev. sTeve Winter
--
Apostolic Oneness Pentecostal /*/ PreRapture Ministry
http://www.onenessapostolic.org for Bible studies (text and audio)
Have you obeyed Acts 2:38 as Paul taught in Acts 19:4-6?
Gwen Nelson
: On Wed, 11 Oct 2000 00:23:17 GMT, Gene Austin
: <gene_...@my-deja.com> wrote:
: >> Scripture does not say that, but rather, commands them
: >> to be "SILENT" in the church.
: >>
: >> --
: >> In Christ,
: >>
: >> Pastor Dave
: ><<<><>
: >Gene> Things have changed since the MasterGod/servant relationship
: >under the covenant of the law and the prophets with a Levitical
: >priesthood. All the elect in a spiritual sense, male/female are one
: >Spirit with Christ, and there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is
: >neither bond nor free, there is neither male or female: for you are all
: >one in Christ Jesus; Spirit of his Spirit, and Mind of his Mind. But
: >this does no mean they can participate in the ministry of government of
: >the assembly. Women can testify, and express the spiritual gifts in
: >their lives for the comforting, edifying and exhorting the people to
: >believe in God's faithfulness.
: You misquote that Scripture and pit it against the
: other NT passages. While, is spirit we may all be the
: same in Christ, we all still have our roles to fill,
: while here on earth and women are commanded to be
: silent in church and in subjection to their husbands.
: Imagine a house where things are supposedly "50/50" as
: the feminist movement demands. Yea, that works well!
: Sure!
Actually it works quite well and is a blueprint for the most stable
marriages. Meanwhile, the highest divorce rate is in the Bible Belt and
Christian marriages have a higher divorce rate than atheist marriages.
I can see that a relationship based on mutual respect would not be
something that you would thrive in or appreciate but your children and
wife most likely would.
: --
John
>>
>> Re: "Women by Command to be "Silent in the Church"", is a Biblical
>>
>>On Tue, 10 Oct 2000 19:20:21 -0600, Mike Barefield
>><littl...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Pastor Dave wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, 10 Oct 2000 18:21:42 -0600, Mike Barefield
>>>> <littl...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >Pastor Dave wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> Scripture says that there is a difference in the roles
>>>> >> of men and women in church. I quoted the verses above.
>>>> >> Context is not limited to one chapter. You cannot take
>>>> >> one chapter and then throw out all of the other
>>>> >> passages from elsewhere in Scripture, simply because
>>>> >> they don't agree with what you're saying. If they seem
>>>> >> to contradict what you're saying, then you must be
>>>> >> misinterpreting them. Frankly, I have not seen you
>>>> >> deal with those other passages as of yet. Here they
>>>> >> are again.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> In Christ,
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Pastor Dave
>>>> >
>
>
>personality and love. If you can't see that...I know someday you will.
>Rev.Brenda
Brenda, I assume that you are a woman.
The statment that you made, "Dave, the majority of the bible contradicts
Jesus's personality and love," shows that you are not qualified to speak in a
congregation. There are no contradictions in the Bible.
Simple logic:
1: Given: the Christian belief that the Bible is completely true.
2: Truth can never be a lie.
3: Anything that contradicts the truth is a lie.
4: Nothing in the Bible contradicts any other thing in the Bible.
Thus: the Bible does not contradict the Message of Messiah.
Therefore we must conclude that you have failed to understand Messiah or
failed to understand the Bible.
Either way, you are not competent to speak in a worship service.
John
>
>"Joe Brennan" <jgbr...@eisa.net.au> wrote in message
>>
>> Damien Harrison wrote in message <8s77tf$17c0$1...@otis.netspace.net.au>...
>>
>sin
>> >than become slaves to the living God. No surprise to me.
>>
>> Careful with the wording Harro, please!
>> Children of God, heirs - not slaves.
>> (Just being picky)
>
>I understand the objection, but Scripture uses the word to describe us as
>well (Rom 6:16-22). I'm picky as well.
>
>: )
>
>God bless.
>
>Harro.
>
Paul is drawing from the Hebrew of Lev. 25:39 which uses a word that
translates closer to "Servant," and has the same origin as the word used for
the Service to G-d (Avodah) in the Temple, as opposed to the king of drugery
that was forbidden on Sabbath (Mlakhah). We should all serve G-d, but we
should not confuse that service with the English word "slavery."
So I guess you are both right in a way.
John
>>
>> Re: "Women by Command to be "Silent in the Church"", is a Biblical
>>
>> From: Pastor Dave <pcd...@optonline.net>
>> Reply to: [1] Pastor Dave
>> Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 14:58:09 GMT
>>On 11 Oct 2000 00:33:24 -0800, wt...@victoria.tc.ca
>>(Brenda G. Tataryn) wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>> Re: "Women by Command to be "Silent in the Church"", is a Biblical
>>>>
>>>>line has to be drawn. You can't just call men and women equal. Women in
>>>>combat , for example, are way incapable, no matter how "open minded" you
>>>
>>>*** why can't there just be a set of standards and if any sex meets
>>>it..they can get in? Why separate it by sex? Pushing a button or flying a
>>>jet does not take more strength than a woman has so what is the point?
>>>I personally think anyone 18 and over who believes in the fight..should be
>>>able to in some capacity..and those who don't should not have to.
>>>Rev.Brenda
>>
>>The men don't usually get raped, when taken captive.
>>
>
>***** and? uh right...these preferred speakers for church..I see.
>So once again genitals dick tate.
>A warrior is a warrior.
>Rev.Brenda
Actually it would be the Commandments of G-d that dictates reality, not your
obscene puns.
Your refusal to obey The Word of G-d shows that you have no right to speak in
a congregation of believers.
>
>
>>--
>>In Christ,
>>
>>Pastor Dave
>>
>>
Brenda G. Tataryn
> Re: "Women by Command to be "Silent in the Church"", is a Biblical
>
> Reply to: [1] John
> Date: Mon, 16 Oct 00 23:36:03 GMT
>
>In article [11] <39e4...@news.victoria.tc.ca>, wt...@victoria.tc.ca (Brenda G.
> Tataryn) wrote:
>>>
>>> Re: "Women by Command to be "Silent in the Church"", is a Biblical
>>>
>>> From: Pastor Dave <pcd...@optonline.net>
>>> Reply to: [1] Pastor Dave
>>>On Tue, 10 Oct 2000 19:20:21 -0600, Mike Barefield
>>><littl...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Pastor Dave wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, 10 Oct 2000 18:21:42 -0600, Mike Barefield
>>>>> <littl...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >Pastor Dave wrote:
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> Scripture says that there is a difference in the roles
>>>>> >> of men and women in church. I quoted the verses above.
>>>>> >> Context is not limited to one chapter. You cannot take
>>>>> >> one chapter and then throw out all of the other
>>>>> >> passages from elsewhere in Scripture, simply because
>>>>> >> they don't agree with what you're saying. If they seem
>>>>> >> to contradict what you're saying, then you must be
>>>>> >> misinterpreting them. Frankly, I have not seen you
>>>>> >> deal with those other passages as of yet. Here they
>>>>> >> are again.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> In Christ,
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Pastor Dave
>>>>> >
>>
>>
>>personality and love. If you can't see that...I know someday you will.
>>Rev.Brenda
>
>Brenda, I assume that you are a woman.
>The statment that you made, "Dave, the majority of the bible contradicts
>Jesus's personality and love," shows that you are not qualified to speak in a
>congregation. There are no contradictions in the Bible.
>Simple logic:
Yup I am a woman. Actually I am qualified.
>
>1: Given: the Christian belief that the Bible is completely true.
***Not all Christians believe this.
>2: Truth can never be a lie.
*** agree with that.
>3: Anything that contradicts the truth is a lie.
*** true.
>4: Nothing in the Bible contradicts any other thing in the Bible.
>
*** Bible is anti Jesus and anti God for the most part.
>Thus: the Bible does not contradict the Message of Messiah.
>Therefore we must conclude that you have failed to understand Messiah or
>failed to understand the Bible.
>
***Nope.
>Either way, you are not competent to speak in a worship service.
***strange. Because I have and have been very much loved for it.
Thanks
Rev.Brenda
Brenda G. Tataryn
> Re: "Women by Command to be "Silent in the Church"", is a Biblical
>
> From: som...@Home.Com (John)
> Reply to: [1] John
> Date: Mon, 16 Oct 00 23:52:22 GMT
>
>In article [11] <39e4...@news.victoria.tc.ca>, wt...@victoria.tc.ca (Brenda G.
> Tataryn) wrote:
>>>
>>> Re: "Women by Command to be "Silent in the Church"", is a Biblical
>>>
>>> From: Pastor Dave <pcd...@optonline.net>
>>> Reply to: [1] Pastor Dave
>>>(Brenda G. Tataryn) wrote:
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Re: "Women by Command to be "Silent in the Church"", is a Biblical
>>>>>
>>>>> Reply to: [1] "Chris Sutton"
>>>>> Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 16:29:22 -0700
>>>>> [15] <69a5uskcoqv4rbt1k...@4ax.com>
>>>>>
>>>>>you poor decieved man. Women have much more rights than they used to, and
>>>>>rightfully so. They shouldn't be chained to a stove. They need rights, but
>a
>>>>>line has to be drawn. You can't just call men and women equal. Women in
>>>>>combat , for example, are way incapable, no matter how "open minded" you
>>>>
>>>>*** why can't there just be a set of standards and if any sex meets
>>>>it..they can get in? Why separate it by sex? Pushing a button or flying a
>>>>jet does not take more strength than a woman has so what is the point?
>>>>I personally think anyone 18 and over who believes in the fight..should be
>>>>able to in some capacity..and those who don't should not have to.
>>>>Rev.Brenda
>>>
>>>The men don't usually get raped, when taken captive.
>>>
>>
>>***** and? uh right...these preferred speakers for church..I see.
>>So once again genitals dick tate.
>>A warrior is a warrior.
>>Rev.Brenda
>
>
>Actually it would be the Commandments of G-d that dictates reality, not your
>obscene puns.
*** yes I believe that God commands us and loves us. Obscene? matter of
opinion.
>
>Your refusal to obey The Word of G-d shows that you have no right to speak in
>a congregation of believers.
>
*** actually I obey what God tells me. You can follow this G-d dude...but
I listen to God and do what God beckons me to do. God has given me the
right to speak.
Not you.
Rev.Brenda
>>
>>
>>>--
>>>In Christ,
>>>
>>>Pastor Dave
>>>
>>>
Brenda G. Tataryn
> Re: "Women by Command to be "Silent in the Church"", is a Biblical
>
> From: som...@Home.Com (John)
> Reply to: [1] John
>These women who want to "be as good as men," are not being as good as
>real women. They are not being "good people" at all.
>
*** actually these women want to be free to be human.
>
>>
>>I can see that a relationship based on mutual respect would not be
>>something that you would thrive in or appreciate but your children and
>>wife most likely would.
>
>A woman deserves more respect for being faithful to G-d and the Bible than she
>does for anything else. The same is true for men. G-d created us and defined
>our place in the universe; anything else is a perversion.
>
*** God did create us and gave us choices...we choose them and we learn
from them. Anything else is perversion.
Justin
"Brenda G. Tataryn" wrote:
> >
> > Re: "Women by Command to be "Silent in the Church"", is a Biblical
> >
> >
That commandment was give because of the troubles that society was undering
going. It was not because a woman was not as smart as a man or as wise. In so way
women are much wiser than us. It was give because men had become so dominant over
women that it was causing problems. Men didn't like it when they could worship
equally to men. Today i think a woman has just as much right to speak in church
as a man. remember the prophecy that says in the last days I shall pour out my
spirit up on all flesh? If they never speak in church how will ever worship?
Don't get me totally wrong i don't a woman should pastor because God made man
head of the House and I believe that includes the house of God as pastors and
deacons.
Peace
C.J.W.
"Brenda G. Tataryn" wrote:
>
> >
> > Re: "Women by Command to be "Silent in the Church"", is a Biblical
> >
> > From: som...@Home.Com (John)
> > Reply to: [1] John
> > Date: Tue, 17 Oct 00 00:03:34 GMT
> >These women who want to "be as good as men," are not being as good as
> >real women. They are not being "good people" at all.
> >
>
> *** actually these women want to be free to be human.<snip>
Actually, neofeminist women want to be free to call other people
sub-human and to kill them.
--
--Watson
"Tolerance is the highest virtue
for those who have no others."
--G.K. Chesterton
http://www.federalist.com
http://member.newsguy.com/~watt2020/Public_Life_and_Homosexuality.html
Brenda G. Tataryn
> Re: "Women by Command to be "Silent in the Church"", is a Biblical
>
> Reply to: [1] watt...@bellatlantic.net
> Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 22:38:20 -0400
>
>
>
>"Brenda G. Tataryn" wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > Re: "Women by Command to be "Silent in the Church"", is a Biblical
>> >
>> > From: som...@Home.Com (John)
>> > Reply to: [1] John
>> > Date: Tue, 17 Oct 00 00:03:34 GMT
>> >These women who want to "be as good as men," are not being as good as
>> >real women. They are not being "good people" at all.
>> >
>>
>> *** actually these women want to be free to be human.<snip>
>
>Actually, neofeminist women want to be free to call other people
>sub-human and to kill them.
**** ah yes the old all feminists wish to kill off foetus's argument...
better to put them in purdah and tell them how to live.
tsk.
Rev.Brenda
>--Watson
>"Tolerance is the highest virtue
>for those who have no others."
>--G.K. Chesterton
>[8] http://www.federalist.com
>[9] http://member.newsguy.com/~watt2020/Public_Life_and_Homosexuality.html
STEPHEN MANN
ye seek Jesus, which was crucified. 6He is not here: for he is risen, as he
said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. 7And go quickly, and tell his
disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you
into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you. 8And they
departed quickly from the sepulchre with fear and great joy; and did run to
bring his disciples word. 9And as they went to tell his disciples, behold,
Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet,
and worshipped him. 10Then said Jesus unto them, Be not afraid: go tell my
brethren that they go into Galilee, and there shall they see me. Matthew
28:5-10
9Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first
to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils. 10And she went and
told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept. 11And they, when
they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not
"Mark 16:9-12
Sounds to me like Jesus and God's Heavenly Messangers chose women to do some
good gossipping!!
John
>Pastor Dave (pcd...@optonline.net) wrote:
>: On Wed, 11 Oct 2000 00:23:17 GMT, Gene Austin
>: <gene_...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
>
>: >> Scripture does not say that, but rather, commands them
>: >> to be "SILENT" in the church.
>: >>
>: >> In Christ,
>: >>
>: >> Pastor Dave
>: ><<<><>
>: >under the covenant of the law and the prophets with a Levitical
>: >priesthood. All the elect in a spiritual sense, male/female are one
>: >Spirit with Christ, and there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is
>: >neither bond nor free, there is neither male or female: for you are all
>: >one in Christ Jesus; Spirit of his Spirit, and Mind of his Mind. But
>: >this does no mean they can participate in the ministry of government of
>: >the assembly. Women can testify, and express the spiritual gifts in
>: >their lives for the comforting, edifying and exhorting the people to
>: >believe in God's faithfulness.
>
>: You misquote that Scripture and pit it against the
>: other NT passages. While, is spirit we may all be the
>: same in Christ, we all still have our roles to fill,
>: while here on earth and women are commanded to be
>: silent in church and in subjection to their husbands.
>: Imagine a house where things are supposedly "50/50" as
>: the feminist movement demands. Yea, that works well!
>: Sure!
>
>Actually it works quite well and is a blueprint for the most stable
>marriages. Meanwhile, the highest divorce rate is in the Bible Belt and
>Christian marriages have a higher divorce rate than atheist marriages.
That is because most Christians teach a 50%/0% relationship.
The Bible says that a woman must submit to her husband's authority.
They teach that part.
But they fail to teach the other 50%.
the Bible says that a husband must cherish his wife enough to suffer for her
happiness. If the husbands did their part the wives would do theirs, but in
the "Bible belt" the Christian husbands do not learn to cherish their wives,
so the wives rebel.
The feminist 50/50 has caused an elevation of criminal behavior since the
children of the first generation of post WWII children were old enough to be
arrested. This trend has continued as the movment has grown in strength.
These women who want to "be as good as men," are not being as good as
real women. They are not being "good people" at all.
>
>I can see that a relationship based on mutual respect would not be
>something that you would thrive in or appreciate but your children and
>wife most likely would.
A woman deserves more respect for being faithful to G-d and the Bible than she
does for anything else. The same is true for men. G-d created us and defined
our place in the universe; anything else is a perversion.
>
>
>
>
>
Pastor Dave
(Gwen Nelson) wrote:
Absolutely incorrect. The divorce rate has climbed
higher and higher, since the introduction of, "50/50
relationships". It is impossible for it to work. A
house divided against itself cannot stand and when you
have two people in disagreement, then nothing moves
forward, since they both have, "equal authority".
>Meanwhile, the highest divorce rate is in the Bible Belt and
>Christian marriages have a higher divorce rate than atheist marriages.
So you say, but even assuming that to be true, what you
have, is a bunch of husbands who are not saved,
expecting their wives to submit, or even being too
demanding and a bunch of wives who are not saved, too
busy with the feminazi movement, to listen to God.
As for actual born again Christians, who read their
Bible every day, attend church and pray together daily,
seeking to submit to the will of God and submitting to
His Word, the divorce rate is 1 in 1,109.
>I can see that a relationship based on mutual respect would not be
>something that you would thrive in or appreciate but your children and
>wife most likely would.
Not if they are seeking to do the will of God.
Pastor Dave
wrote:
True enough, but the blame is not only on the men, but
the women who don't submit and the women who think that
submitting means getting their own way, because the
husband should want them to be happy. Sometimes
cherishing your wife means saying no.
Chuck Stamford
disagree with at least one thing you wrote. Dave didn't write 1 Corinthians
14:34!
God bless you
--
Chuck Stamford
"matthieu.rimmely" <matthieu...@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:8rvccr$kud$1...@wanadoo.fr...
>
> Dave wrote :
> >
> > "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is
> > not permitted unto them to speak; but they are
> > commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the
> > law." - 1 Corinthians 14:34
>
>
> The passage in 1 Corinthians 14 deals mostly with women LEARNING, not
> teaching. Again, 1 Tim 2/11 says "Let the woman learn in silence..."
>
> "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto
> them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith
> the law. And if they will learn anything, let them ask their husbands at
> home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." - 1 Cor
14/34-35
>
> The unlearned women often interrupted the services with questions, and
> comments. Paul addressed these *interruptions*, pointing out that the
> subjection of woman to husband also required the husband and wife to act
in
> such a way that order was maintained in the church. ("it is a shame for
> women to speak in the church")
>
> The distractions were to be brought in under reign of the husband, where
he
> could fulfill his responsibility by teaching these issues at home (much as
> Adam ought to have:) ("...let them ask their husbands at home..." )
>
> In these days, those who ignorantly maintain an absolute prohibition
> against women in public ministry must do so in clear defiance of the Word
of
> God. Ignorance serves as an excuse to the untaught, but to seriously
malign
> the female half of the human race unscripturally, and in so doing make
> accusation against the Church of the Living God is poorly motivated to say
> the least. We feel no reluctance to apply the highly charged and often
> overused term, "sexist" to such commentary.
>
> To see women minister in missionary, and evangelistic work labouring
> tirelessly, giving their lives in establishing churches is awe inspiring.
> And, it is truly Apostolic. Let God have his way in every life, and let
> everything be done properly!
>
>
>
Damien Harrison
> >
> *** Bible is anti Jesus and anti God for the most part.
ROTFL. You crack me up.
Harro.
Damien Harrison
"John" <som...@Home.Com> wrote in message
news:QxMG5.48452$Km6.2...@news-west.usenetserver.com...
> In article <8seoqm$12u7$7...@otis.netspace.net.au>, "Damien Harrison"
<har...@netspace.net.au> wrote:
> >
> >"Joe Brennan" <jgbr...@eisa.net.au> wrote in message
> >news:8sas3d$t3q$1...@news.eisa.net.au...
> >>
> >> Damien Harrison wrote in message
<8s77tf$17c0$1...@otis.netspace.net.au>...
> >>
> >sin
> >> >than become slaves to the living God. No surprise to me.
> >>
> >> Careful with the wording Harro, please!
> >> Children of God, heirs - not slaves.
> >> (Just being picky)
> >
> >I understand the objection, but Scripture uses the word to describe us as
> >well (Rom 6:16-22). I'm picky as well.
> >
> >: )
> >
> >God bless.
> >
> >Harro.
> >
>
>
> Paul is drawing from the Hebrew of Lev. 25:39 which uses a word that
> translates closer to "Servant," and has the same origin as the word used
for
> the Service to G-d (Avodah) in the Temple, as opposed to the king of
drugery
> that was forbidden on Sabbath (Mlakhah). We should all serve G-d, but we
> should not confuse that service with the English word "slavery."
>
> So I guess you are both right in a way.
Okey doke. Everyone, when I said "slave" above, I meant it in the Biblical
sense, not the English sense. In any case, I do believe that being a
"slave" to Christ is the only true freedom.
Harro.
Qbaal
wt...@victoria.tc.ca (Brenda G. Tataryn) wrote:
> >
> > Re: "Women by Command to be "Silent in the Church"", is a
Biblical
snipedy snip
> ***strange. Because I have and have been very much loved for it.
> Thanks
> Rev.Brenda
One casual scan of the Christian newsgroups reveals how flawed is
the Bible as the final arbitrer on Christian belief and practice.
The Bible cannot be taken as the ultimate authority on any matter
of faith any more than the medical knowledge of Socrates' time
can be authoratative today for medical doctors. Of course, lots
of the ancient Greece's medicine is still good medicine today. But
it has been superceded, basically, by modern drugs and medicine
based on the scientific approach to knowledge. Yes, some ancient
theology and medicine is still kosher but it has been screen and tested
by modern scientific methods.
So, as with its pronouncements on homosexuality, Virgin Birth,
nature miracles and even the nature of Christ, the Bible's patriarchal
pronouncements (hot air) re woman are not only passe but dangerously
opposed to the spirit of Christ.
Actually, to show the fractured nature of scripture itself consider
this. A near ultimate test of Christian belief and practice is "Do unto
others, as you would have do unto you." Now suppose, any male,
yourself a woman. Do you really think commanding women to be silent,
ie without moral or intellectual authority in the congregation, a
fine example of Christian wisdom and totally inline with the personality
and actions of Jesus, or anything worthwhile we know of God. I mean,
having a penis does not add or subtract that much from a fine working
of the basic homo sapiens brain. Hmmm... Sometimes, anyway.
I happen to have lived all my life in prominent Christian Chrurches
that do ordain women. And believe me they can hack it.
--
Take a stab at modern critical Christian
thinking at
http://geocities.com/qbaal_99/index.htm
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Pastor Dave
Your attitude is one of modernism and not from a desire
to serve God.
>I happen to have lived all my life in prominent Christian Chrurches
>that do ordain women. And believe me they can hack it.
Then they do so against the very Bible that they hold
up and claim to follow.
K
While John is right the "servant" is a better translation, Your point is true.
You are either a servant to the Allmighty, or a slave to sin.
>
>
K
Very true.
The Apostles did not want Messiah to die, but He knew it was better for them
if He did. Men must act in Messiah's example.
Spinless men who allow their wives to abuse their desire to cherish do not
have the ability to really provide the leadership to make their wives happy.
Qbaal
Pastor Dave <pcd...@optonline.net> wrote:
> On Tue, 17 Oct 2000 14:09:16 GMT, Qbaal
> <qb...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> >In article <39eb...@news.victoria.tc.ca>,
> > wt...@victoria.tc.ca (Brenda G. Tataryn) wrote:
>
> Your attitude is one of modernism and not from a desire
> to serve God.
Skip the label "modernism" which chiefly aims to dehumanize (and sever
from kosher Christianity) me and anyone else who dares scrutinize
holy writ and doctrine from the perspective of a modern worldview.
The modern worldview does not guarantee ultimate truth on spiritual
matters and has its fair share of self-righteous conceited prigs who
would not know a pearl of wisdom from a piece of pig manure if they
tripped over it. However, if the enemies of modern historical-critical
theology think the modern worldview is a threat to the creator of the
unviverse they should consider the truth of this unshakeable maxim "Any
God that can be diminished or killed by facts or science is one that
deserves to be dimished and utterly terminated -as soon as possible."
> >I happen to have lived all my life in prominent Christian Chrurches
> >that do ordain women. And believe me they can hack it.
>
> Then they do so against the very Bible that they hold
> up and claim to follow.
QBaal replies:
That was my point. Many modern Protestants, while having all due
respect for the bible and knowing how it was written, base their
theology, doctrine, hymns and preaching on reason, science, history,
church tradition, church doctrine, conversation with other Christians
of different denominations, and, of course, the promptings of the Holy
Spirit. Just the other day the Holy Spirit chastized me sorely for
putting any credence in that Hell crap found some abundantly in the
gospel of Matthew. God is mad and is not going to take that kind
of blasphemy no more, you hear. Heh, heh.
> --
> In Christ,
>
> Pastor Dave
--
Gwen Nelson
Pastor Dave (pcd...@optonline.net) wrote:
: On 16 Oct 2000 07:24:51 -0600, col...@slave1.aa.net
: (Gwen Nelson) wrote:
: >Pastor Dave (pcd...@optonline.net) wrote:
: >: On Wed, 11 Oct 2000 00:23:17 GMT, Gene Austin
: >: <gene_...@my-deja.com> wrote:
: >
: >
: >: >> Scripture does not say that, but rather, commands them
: >: >> to be "SILENT" in the church.
: >: >>
: >: >> --
: >: >> In Christ,
: >: >>
: >: >> Pastor Dave
: >: ><<<><>
: >: >Gene> Things have changed since the MasterGod/servant relationship
: >: >under the covenant of the law and the prophets with a Levitical
: >: >priesthood. All the elect in a spiritual sense, male/female are one
: >: >Spirit with Christ, and there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is
: >: >neither bond nor free, there is neither male or female: for you are all
: >: >one in Christ Jesus; Spirit of his Spirit, and Mind of his Mind. But
: >: >this does no mean they can participate in the ministry of government of
: >: >the assembly. Women can testify, and express the spiritual gifts in
: >: >their lives for the comforting, edifying and exhorting the people to
: >: >believe in God's faithfulness.
: >
: >: You misquote that Scripture and pit it against the
: >: other NT passages. While, is spirit we may all be the
: >: same in Christ, we all still have our roles to fill,
: >: while here on earth and women are commanded to be
: >: silent in church and in subjection to their husbands.
: >: Imagine a house where things are supposedly "50/50" as
: >: the feminist movement demands. Yea, that works well!
: >: Sure!
: >
: >Actually it works quite well and is a blueprint for the most stable
: >marriages.
: Absolutely incorrect. The divorce rate has climbed
: higher and higher, since the introduction of, "50/50
: relationships". It is impossible for it to work. A
: house divided against itself cannot stand and when you
: have two people in disagreement, then nothing moves
: forward, since they both have, "equal authority".
: >Meanwhile, the highest divorce rate is in the Bible Belt and
: >Christian marriages have a higher divorce rate than atheist marriages.
: So you say, but even assuming that to be true, what you
: have, is a bunch of husbands who are not saved,
: expecting their wives to submit, or even being too
: demanding and a bunch of wives who are not saved, too
: busy with the feminazi movement, to listen to God.
Ah, you are quoting Rush Limbaugh (who coined the 'feminazi' bigotry)
Now there's a Godly man. He, like Gingrich, is on his third, progressively
younger wife.
: As for actual born again Christians, who read their
: Bible every day, attend church and pray together daily,
: seeking to submit to the will of God and submitting to
: His Word, the divorce rate is 1 in 1,109.
I guess if you limit the number of born again Christian divorces to the
number of people who aren't divorced that figure might be true. What about
Randall Terry? I'm fairly certain that he was born again and he certainly
thinks that he is a moral authority. Indeed, he has made his living being
a moral authority. Too bad he divorced his wife and five children to be
with a younger woman last year.
: >I can see that a relationship based on mutual respect would not be
: >something that you would thrive in or appreciate but your children and
: >wife most likely would.
: Not if they are seeking to do the will of God.
I've been reading your posts for some time. I do not believe that you know
the will of God, I do not accept you as a moral authority. I do know that
mutual respect is one absolute prerequisite for a stable and joyful
marriage.
: --
: In Christ,
: Pastor Dave
: "As for me, I have not hastened from being a pastor
Brenda G. Tataryn
whose marriages will last a lifetime and there are those who should
divorce after just a few years.
There should be no stigma or feeling of not measuring up if a person
decides to divorce. Some relationships are meant to teach you something
and when that lesson is taught ..it is time to move on.
Rev.Brenda
Damien Harrison
>
>
> >Paul is drawing from the Hebrew of Lev. 25:39 which uses a word that
> >translates closer to "Servant," and has the same origin as the word used
> for
> >the Service to G-d (Avodah) in the Temple, as opposed to the king of
> drugery
> >that was forbidden on Sabbath (Mlakhah). We should all serve G-d, but we
> >should not confuse that service with the English word "slavery."
> >
> >So I guess you are both right in a way.
>
> Isn't it nice to have a discussion where nobody's insulting each other?
It's great.
> I checked up on Rom 6:16-22 and discovered that that verse exhorts us to
be
> slaves to a concept (righteousness) rather than a person.
Verse 16 yes, verse 22, no. 1 Cor 7:22 talks a bit about it as well.
> So I'm happy to accept that however you wish to analogise, we should be
> doing our best to be righteous.
Cool, agreed.
Harro.
Pastor Dave
wrote:
>Very true.
>The Apostles did not want Messiah to die, but He knew it was better for them
>if He did. Men must act in Messiah's example.
>
>Spinless men who allow their wives to abuse their desire to cherish do not
>have the ability to really provide the leadership to make their wives happy.
Absolutely.
Pastor Dave
<qb...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>In article <g9oousc9sdf8rvdb0...@4ax.com>,
> Pastor Dave <pcd...@optonline.net> wrote:
>> On Tue, 17 Oct 2000 14:09:16 GMT, Qbaal
>> <qb...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>>
>> >In article <39eb...@news.victoria.tc.ca>,
>> > wt...@victoria.tc.ca (Brenda G. Tataryn) wrote:
>>
>> Your attitude is one of modernism and not from a desire
>> to serve God.
>
>Skip the label "modernism"
No thank you, I won't. Your attitude does not come
from the past, but the present, which is "modernism".
> which chiefly aims to dehumanize (and sever
>from kosher Christianity) me and anyone else who dares scrutinize
>holy writ and doctrine from the perspective of a modern worldview.
In other words, you want to be able to criticize God
and claim that He was not capable of writing a Word for
all time and that you, in your modern day "knowledge",
now know better than He does.
I think you had better get humble and ask yourself just
who you think you are, to be question God.
>> >I happen to have lived all my life in prominent Christian Chrurches
>> >that do ordain women. And believe me they can hack it.
>>
>> Then they do so against the very Bible that they hold
>> up and claim to follow.
>
>QBaal replies:
>
>That was my point. Many modern Protestants, while having all due
>respect for the bible and knowing how it was written, base their
>theology, doctrine, hymns and preaching on reason, science, history,
>church tradition, church doctrine, conversation with other Christians
>of different denominations, and, of course, the promptings of the Holy
>Spirit. Just the other day the Holy Spirit chastized me sorely for
>putting any credence in that Hell crap found some abundantly in the
>gospel of Matthew. God is mad and is not going to take that kind
>of blasphemy no more, you hear. Heh, heh.
No one who is stating that the Word of God is outdated
and not to be followed in all matters, is speaking by
the prompting of the Holy Spirit.
Pastor Dave
(Gwen Nelson) wrote:
>Distribution:
>
>Pastor Dave (pcd...@optonline.net) wrote:
>: On 16 Oct 2000 07:24:51 -0600, col...@slave1.aa.net
>: (Gwen Nelson) wrote:
>
>: >Pastor Dave (pcd...@optonline.net) wrote:
>: >: On Wed, 11 Oct 2000 00:23:17 GMT, Gene Austin
>: >: <gene_...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>: >
>: >
>: >: >> Scripture does not say that, but rather, commands them
>: >: >> to be "SILENT" in the church.
>: >: >>
>: >: >> --
>: >: >> In Christ,
>: >: >>
>: >: >> Pastor Dave
>: >: ><<<><>
>: >: >Gene> Things have changed since the MasterGod/servant relationship
>: >: >under the covenant of the law and the prophets with a Levitical
>: >: >priesthood. All the elect in a spiritual sense, male/female are one
>: >: >Spirit with Christ, and there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is
>: >: >neither bond nor free, there is neither male or female: for you are all
>: >: >one in Christ Jesus; Spirit of his Spirit, and Mind of his Mind. But
>: >: >this does no mean they can participate in the ministry of government of
>: >: >the assembly. Women can testify, and express the spiritual gifts in
>: >: >their lives for the comforting, edifying and exhorting the people to
>: >: >believe in God's faithfulness.
>: >
>: >: You misquote that Scripture and pit it against the
>: >: other NT passages. While, is spirit we may all be the
>: >: same in Christ, we all still have our roles to fill,
>: >: while here on earth and women are commanded to be
>: >: silent in church and in subjection to their husbands.
>: >: Imagine a house where things are supposedly "50/50" as
>: >: the feminist movement demands. Yea, that works well!
>: >: Sure!
>: >
>: >Actually it works quite well and is a blueprint for the most stable
>: >marriages.
>
>: Absolutely incorrect. The divorce rate has climbed
>: higher and higher, since the introduction of, "50/50
>: relationships". It is impossible for it to work. A
>: house divided against itself cannot stand and when you
>: have two people in disagreement, then nothing moves
>: forward, since they both have, "equal authority".
>
>
>
>
>
>: >Meanwhile, the highest divorce rate is in the Bible Belt and
>: >Christian marriages have a higher divorce rate than atheist marriages.
>
>: So you say, but even assuming that to be true, what you
>: have, is a bunch of husbands who are not saved,
>: expecting their wives to submit, or even being too
>: demanding and a bunch of wives who are not saved, too
>: busy with the feminazi movement, to listen to God.
>
>Ah, you are quoting Rush Limbaugh (who coined the 'feminazi' bigotry)
>Now there's a Godly man. He, like Gingrich, is on his third, progressively
>younger wife.
>
>
>: As for actual born again Christians, who read their
>: Bible every day, attend church and pray together daily,
>: seeking to submit to the will of God and submitting to
>: His Word, the divorce rate is 1 in 1,109.
>
>I guess if you limit the number of born again Christian divorces to the
>number of people who aren't divorced that figure might be true. What about
>Randall Terry? I'm fairly certain that he was born again and he certainly
>thinks that he is a moral authority. Indeed, he has made his living being
>a moral authority. Too bad he divorced his wife and five children to be
>with a younger woman last year.
>
>
>: >I can see that a relationship based on mutual respect would not be
>: >something that you would thrive in or appreciate but your children and
>: >wife most likely would.
>
>: Not if they are seeking to do the will of God.
>
>I've been reading your posts for some time. I do not believe that you know
>the will of God, I do not accept you as a moral authority.
Of course not. It doesn't fit with your liberal views.
>I do know that
>mutual respect is one absolute prerequisite for a stable and joyful
>marriage.
I never said anything about mutual respect. That
wasn't under discussion.
Ron Burdette
: the boys from the girls.
Some of your lost Pentecostal leaders have just the opposite
problem. Some of them like little girls, along with their mother!
When they aren't riding around lusting over hard core pornographic
magazines. These are commonly known as 'whoremongers'.
Then there are those who are in total rebellion against God,
His Word and His Church.
These are they who deny the Trinity of God, they are much
worse than the whormongers. The whoremongers can receive
forgiveness, the others can't because of their blasphemy.
These eternally lost 'others' are self-labeled as the 'oneness cult'.
The fanatical 'oneness' sect splintered from the Pentecostal movement.
It is easily recognized by its blatant errors in its heretical teaching.
The cult's leaders are extremely ignorant. They are unschooled,
along with being lost. Most are little dictatorial tyrants who want to
'rule' their blind followers through intimidation. It's like the blind
leading the blind.
I can't imagine why the lost steve winter would claim that
Methodism has problems, can you?
He should be concerned with his lost condition; not
throwing stones at Methodists!
1 Corinthians 2:15
But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
><>...Ron
matthieu.rimmely
*****
> Who is Rev. Steve Winter ? :
>
> See :
>
> 1) : http://www.stevewinter.com/
>
> 2) : http://www.enteract.com/~sadams/winfaq.html
Ron Burdette wrote :
matthieu.rimmely
Ron Burdette wrote :
>
> Some of your lost Pentecostal leaders have just the opposite
> problem. Some of them like little girls, along with their mother!
> When they aren't riding around lusting over hard core pornographic
> magazines. These are commonly known as 'whoremongers'.
Prove it.
> Then there are those who are in total rebellion against God,
> His Word and His Church.
> These are they who deny the Trinity of God, they are much
> worse than the whormongers. The whoremongers can receive
> forgiveness, the others can't because of their blasphemy.
>
> These eternally lost 'others' are self-labeled as the 'oneness cult'.
>
> The fanatical 'oneness' sect splintered from the Pentecostal movement.
> It is easily recognized by its blatant errors in its heretical teaching.
> The cult's leaders are extremely ignorant. They are unschooled,
> along with being lost. Most are little dictatorial tyrants who want to
> 'rule' their blind followers through intimidation. It's like the blind
> leading the blind.
Prove it.
"These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him
... a false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among
brethren" (Proverbs 6/16, 19).
"For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.... Every idle
word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of
judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou
shalt be condemned" (Matthew 12/34, 36-37).
"Bless, and curse not" (Romans 12/14).
"Nor revilers ... shall inherit the kingdom of God" (I Corinthians 6/10).
"Put off ... blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. Lie not one
to another" (Colossians 3/8-9).
"Speak evil of no man" (Titus 3/2).
Unknown
>> Re: "Women by Command to be "Silent in the Church"", is a Biblical rule.
Whether you wish to admit it or not, the instruction for women to be
silent in church is just as valid today as it was in the first
century.
Just take a quick perusal of the posts in these Christian newsgroups.
What percentage are from women? (ans. few) And of the few posts by
women, how many have you saved to your hard drive for further study?
(in my case, durn few to nil).
I don't mean to imply that godly women have nothing of merit to
contribute. Just that true godly women know their unique position
that God has given them and they humbly submit to the Word of God with
regards to silence in church settings.
>>>>>>you poor decieved man. Women have much more rights than they used to, and
>>>>>>rightfully so. They shouldn't be chained to a stove.
Has this or any other country benefitted from giving women even the
right to vote? Is our government any better, warmer or compassionate
now that women hold positions of authority? (ans. not that I can see.)
>>>They need rights, but
>>>>>>a line has to be drawn. You can't just call men and women equal. Women in
>>>>>>combat , for example, are way incapable, no matter how "open minded" you...
You can't have it both ways. Either the women should know her place
and stick to it or they should be allowed complete access and
equality. Instinctively, you admit that they don't belong in combat
situations but once you allow them to rule over you they will do as
they please. Trouble is, the camel's nose was allowed in the tent
(they were granted suffrage) and now they go and do wherever they
like. Girls are allowed in our military academy, encouraged to
compete with pubescent boys in wrestling and boxing (what's next?
professional football kickers, baseball players and managers?) , they
are allowed to serve on naval vessels (and the rates of pregnancy and
subsequent leave of absence is VERY HIGH), women (primarily) push the
liberal agendas for abortion, rampant socialism and gun confiscation
(as they once did for failed policies like prohibition). We men, are
reaping what we have sowed.
>>>>>*** why can't there just be a set of standards and if any sex meets
>>>>>it..they can get in? Why separate it by sex? Pushing a button or flying a
>>>>>jet does not take more strength than a woman has so what is the point?
>>>>>I personally think anyone 18 and over who believes in the fight..should be
>>>>>able to in some capacity..and those who don't should not have to.
>>>>>Rev.Brenda
Please keep posting Brenda, your words make my points for women to be
silent in church much better than anything I could ever imagine. She
is exactly the type of arrogant, self-willed, busy-bodied woman that
the Apostle Paul was addressing.
There were "sets of standards" for the military, firemen, policemen
etc. the women couldn't meet them so the standards were lowered.
>>>>The men don't usually get raped, when taken captive.
She can't refute your impeccable logic, so the Rev? Brenda resorts to
bathroom humor.
>>>***** and? uh right...these preferred speakers for church..I see.
>>>So once again genitals dick tate.
>>>A warrior is a warrior.
Yeah right...and I know a "Cock 'n Bull" story when I hear one!
>>Actually it would be the Commandments of G-d that dictates reality, not your
>>obscene puns.
>
>*** yes I believe that God commands us and loves us. Obscene? matter of
>opinion.
You are not interested in what God commands you, therefore it is
doubtful that He loves you. (1John 2:4-6)
>>
>>Your refusal to obey The Word of G-d shows that you have no right to speak in
>>a congregation of believers.
>>
>*** actually I obey what God tells me.
Which "god" might that be? Certainly not the One mentioned in the
Bible. Oh..., you mean the PC one of your own invention.
>You can follow this G-d dude...but
>I listen to God and do what God beckons me to do. God has given me the
>right to speak. Not you.
Such prideful arrogance.
So your God only allows YOU to speak? LOL
You crack me up Brenda. Keep it up, I'm in stitches. Now tell us
how your husband feels about what "god" beckons you to do. Or is Rev.
Brenda a lesbian as well as a cut-and-paste Bible reading "Christian"?
Brother Joe
______________________________________________________________________
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The Emissary
Speedbyrd <speed...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:cq79vsokt9e41g74l...@4ax.com...
> and if I'm going to hell because of that belief, then so be
> it! It is NOT any longer, a 'man's world' and I for one, am
> glad to see it!
DUMB!!!
Doug T
Ron Burdette wrote:
>
> : The methodists are having greater problems than that telling
> : the boys from the girls.
>
> Some of your lost Pentecostal leaders have just the opposite
> problem. Some of them like little girls, along with their mother!
> When they aren't riding around lusting over hard core pornographic
> magazines. These are commonly known as 'whoremongers'.
>
> Then there are those who are in total rebellion against God,
> His Word and His Church.
> These are they who deny the Trinity of God, they are much
> worse than the whormongers. The whoremongers can receive
> forgiveness, the others can't because of their blasphemy.
>
> These eternally lost 'others' are self-labeled as the 'oneness cult'.
>
> The fanatical 'oneness' sect splintered from the Pentecostal movement.
> It is easily recognized by its blatant errors in its heretical teaching.
> The cult's leaders are extremely ignorant. They are unschooled,
> along with being lost. Most are little dictatorial tyrants who want to
> 'rule' their blind followers through intimidation. It's like the blind
> leading the blind.
>
> I can't imagine why the lost steve winter would claim that
> Methodism has problems, can you?
> He should be concerned with his lost condition; not
> throwing stones at Methodists!
And leave the stone throwing to you, since you alone know who is best to
receive God's love and who His wrath, eh Ron!!?? You are both wakko's
Ron and it would be greatly appreciated if you would stop cross posting
to the Methodist NG. Don't go away mad, just go away.
Teppo
women is obvious. It's very "nice" that he has a straight phoneconnection to
"god", they can chat about "lesbian women who dont know their place" .
What would Bro J do when one day he dies and kaboom goes to heaven (of
course) and god turns out to be a WOMAN? Bet he'd wet his pants.......
Brenda G. Tataryn
> Re: "Women by Command to be "Silent in the Church"", is a Biblical
>
> Reply to: [1] Brother Joe
> Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 13:22:47 -0700
> Organization: Uncensored-News.Com $9.95 Uncensored Newsgroups.
>
>>> Re: "Women by Command to be "Silent in the Church"", is a Biblical rule
>.
>
>Has this or any other country benefitted from giving women even the
>right to vote? Is our government any better, warmer or compassionate
>now that women hold positions of authority? (ans. not that I can see.)
**** you betcher your sweet ass it is. You would see if you had eyes to
see.
>
>>>>They need rights, but
>>>>>>>a line has to be drawn. You can't just call men and women equal. Women in
>>>>>>>combat , for example, are way incapable, no matter how "open minded" you.
>..
>
**** there are men who cannot do combat and there are women who can.
The wars of today are far more push button then of yesteryear.
>You can't have it both ways. Either the women should know her place
>and stick to it or they should be allowed complete access and
>equality. Instinctively, you admit that they don't belong in combat
>situations but once you allow them to rule over you they will do as
*** I believe that anyone who wants to fight....over the age of 18..
should be allowed.
>they please. Trouble is, the camel's nose was allowed in the tent
>(they were granted suffrage) and now they go and do wherever they
>like. Girls are allowed in our military academy, encouraged to
>compete with pubescent boys in wrestling and boxing (what's next?
>professional football kickers, baseball players and managers?) , they
>are allowed to serve on naval vessels (and the rates of pregnancy and
>subsequent leave of absence is VERY HIGH), women (primarily) push the
>liberal agendas for abortion, rampant socialism and gun confiscation
>(as they once did for failed policies like prohibition). We men, are
>reaping what we have sowed.
>
*** what is wrong with giving people..human beings the right to fulfill
there own destiny? If they fail...or win...that is the point...not if they
have testicles or not.
>>>>>>*** why can't there just be a set of standards and if any sex meets
>>>>>>it..they can get in? Why separate it by sex? Pushing a button or flying a
>>>>>>jet does not take more strength than a woman has so what is the point?
>>>>>>I personally think anyone 18 and over who believes in the fight..should be
>>>>>>able to in some capacity..and those who don't should not have to.
>>>>>>Rev.Brenda
>
>Please keep posting Brenda, your words make my points for women to be
>silent in church much better than anything I could ever imagine. She
>is exactly the type of arrogant, self-willed, busy-bodied woman that
>the Apostle Paul was addressing.
>
**** and a man who insults is better?
Arrogant? if you think wanting equality is arrogant then so be it.
Self-willed? I think women care more for the greater good than any
male ever would. Busy body? like all those busy body guys out there?
>There were "sets of standards" for the military, firemen, policemen
>etc. the women couldn't meet them so the standards were lowered.
>
***** no. They were not lowered at all.
>>>>>The men don't usually get raped, when taken captive.
>
>She can't refute your impeccable logic, so the Rev? Brenda resorts to
>bathroom humor.
>
**** men get raped too? what is impeccable? Bathroom humour? any humour
is good to me. I am no snob.
>>>>***** and? uh right...these preferred speakers for church..I see.
>>>>So once again genitals dick tate.
>>>>A warrior is a warrior.
>
>Yeah right...and I know a "Cock 'n Bull" story when I hear one!
>
**** okay.
>>>Actually it would be the Commandments of G-d that dictates reality, not your
>>>obscene puns.
>>
>>*** yes I believe that God commands us and loves us. Obscene? matter of
>>opinion.
>
>You are not interested in what God commands you, therefore it is
>doubtful that He loves you. (1John 2:4-6)
>>>
>>>Your refusal to obey The Word of G-d shows that you have no right to speak in
>>>a congregation of believers.
>>>
>>*** actually I obey what God tells me.
>
>Which "god" might that be? Certainly not the One mentioned in the
>Bible. Oh..., you mean the PC one of your own invention.
>
>>You can follow this G-d dude...but
>>I listen to God and do what God beckons me to do. God has given me the
>>right to speak. Not you.
>
>Such prideful arrogance.
>So your God only allows YOU to speak? LOL
>
> You crack me up Brenda. Keep it up, I'm in stitches. Now tell us
>how your husband feels about what "god" beckons you to do. Or is Rev.
>Brenda a lesbian as well as a cut-and-paste Bible reading "Christian"?
***Hmmm a strong woman gets ad hominens..ah. Okay whatever. As far as the
cut and paste? yep. We have to separate the wheat from the chaff.
>
>
>Brother Joe
>
Brother to who?
Rev.Brenda
>______________________________________________________________________
>Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com - Still Only $9.95 - [11] http://www.uncensored-
Brenda G. Tataryn
> Re: "Women by Command to be "Silent in the Church"", is a Biblical
>
Rev.Brenda
John Fraser
How is life in the city of the "newly wed and nearly dead", or,
formerly known as the "city of millionaires"? Life in the military.
A few love it, most tolerate it and a few hate it. And, as the
Canadian Forces ads use to say, "There's no life like it..."
Esquimalt has a naval base and there used to be a PPCLI regiment also
located in Esquimalt although I'm not sure if that still exists.
Comox has an air base of sorts.
My writing is to the address the topic of your response and to whom
you responded to. I'm not being critical, just rambling. While men
and women have many common attributes, they're really intended to
complement each other. If any men think that women can only clean,
shop and raise kids, they're woefully misinformed. During WW 2, they
drove transport trucks, flew aircraft, operated machinery, etc. They
worked as mechanics and welders as well as nurses and secretaries.
However, there are some key differences which makes each unique and
I'm not talking visible physical attributes. One of the more famous
people who thought like this was Henry Ford. When he imposed his
famous $5 a day wage for the assembly line workers, the main
qualification was 3 year's seniority. Very few women stayed that long
and he knew it. Therefore, he wouldn't pay up. However, the women
and their supporters drew his attention to that his rules are his
rules and he eventually made good. One of his main reasons was that
many women worked while single to pay their own way. But, they soon
married, bore children and very few returned. As for the male gender,
child birth doesn't prevent them from working outside the home. The
same can't be said of the female gender. I think a federal ruling was
recently passed that permitted working moms to remain at home for a
year. A replacement has to be hired and then fired a year later.
As for combat roles, most women would prefer to let someone else do
it and there is only one other option. There are women who have
joined up with the attitude that they can do just as well and for the
most part, they can. However, once their objective is obtained, it's
just a job and their enthusiasm wanes. I can recall while I was in
the navy, many men felt that women didn't have the strength, etc.
Well, I've yet to meet a man who can carry a 600 lb lube oil pump or a
3,000 lb gas turbine engine up the flats without help and mechanical
aids. The U.S. Navy conducted an experiment crewing a smaller ship
with only women. They considered the project a failure. The project
failed because the women were too competetive and didn't function as a
cohesive unit. I know that men can be just as difficult in same
cases.
As for voting, how does one define freedom? Many define freedom as
"I can do what I want, but you can only do what I permit you". As for
female leadership, how does one define leadership? I do know that if
men won't be responsible in positions of leadership, the women will
gladly take over and often do. So, in some respects, the women are
forced to take over. However, there will always be exceptions.
Having said that, I think God would prefer to let men have the role
of leadership for that is whom the responsibility is placed upon. I
some that some men will exploit that priviledge. Women aren't slaves
nor are they servants. But, they are to be subjective. It's quite a
concept when considered as a whole: guidance, achievement, behaviour,
management and wisdom. Women can do all of these things. But, God
placed the responsibility of obedience to Him on men, not women. I
don't know why, but He has. So why rock the boat unless you want that
accountability instead?
Cheers,
John
Brenda G. Tataryn
> Re: "Women by Command to be "Silent in the Church"", is a Biblical
>
> Reply to: [1] John Fraser
> Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 14:56:55 GMT
>Good morning Brenda;
Dia Duit,
>
> How is life in the city of the "newly wed and nearly dead", or,
>formerly known as the "city of millionaires"? Life in the military.
>A few love it, most tolerate it and a few hate it. And, as the
>Canadian Forces ads use to say, "There's no life like it..."
>Esquimalt has a naval base and there used to be a PPCLI regiment also
>located in Esquimalt although I'm not sure if that still exists.
>Comox has an air base of sorts.
>
*** life here is beautiful.
> My writing is to the address the topic of your response and to whom
>you responded to. I'm not being critical, just rambling. While men
>and women have many common attributes, they're really intended to
>complement each other. If any men think that women can only clean,
>shop and raise kids, they're woefully misinformed. During WW 2, they
>drove transport trucks, flew aircraft, operated machinery, etc. They
>worked as mechanics and welders as well as nurses and secretaries.
>However, there are some key differences which makes each unique and
>I'm not talking visible physical attributes. One of the more famous
>people who thought like this was Henry Ford. When he imposed his
>famous $5 a day wage for the assembly line workers, the main
>qualification was 3 year's seniority. Very few women stayed that long
>and he knew it. Therefore, he wouldn't pay up. However, the women
>and their supporters drew his attention to that his rules are his
>rules and he eventually made good. One of his main reasons was that
>many women worked while single to pay their own way. But, they soon
>married, bore children and very few returned. As for the male gender,
>child birth doesn't prevent them from working outside the home. The
>same can't be said of the female gender. I think a federal ruling was
>recently passed that permitted working moms to remain at home for a
>year. A replacement has to be hired and then fired a year later.
>
**** do you not think that the archaic concept of 9-5 was and continues
to be based on males only working? I think that if employers and the
government itself took into consideration the fact that men and women had
similarities *and* differences and made allowances for both by law then
it would be a more fair and just society. I believe the federal ruling
that recently passed permitted *parents* to remain at home for a year.
> As for combat roles, most women would prefer to let someone else do
>it and there is only one other option. There are women who have
>joined up with the attitude that they can do just as well and for the
>most part, they can. However, once their objective is obtained, it's
>just a job and their enthusiasm wanes. I can recall while I was in
**** preferences or not...all generalizations aside...
Let *people* join...let *people* become accepted for what they do
well...and
if they prove terrible at it...give them an honourable or dishonourable
discharge. You will always find exceptions to the rule.
>the navy, many men felt that women didn't have the strength, etc.
>Well, I've yet to meet a man who can carry a 600 lb lube oil pump or a
>3,000 lb gas turbine engine up the flats without help and mechanical
>aids. The U.S. Navy conducted an experiment crewing a smaller ship
>with only women. They considered the project a failure. The project
>failed because the women were too competetive and didn't function as a
>cohesive unit. I know that men can be just as difficult in same
>cases.
>
***** how about a mix of men and women...????
Why did they separate them into gender groups in the first place if
not because of a prejudicial agenda?
> As for voting, how does one define freedom? Many define freedom as
>"I can do what I want, but you can only do what I permit you". As for
>female leadership, how does one define leadership? I do know that if
>men won't be responsible in positions of leadership, the women will
>gladly take over and often do. So, in some respects, the women are
>forced to take over. However, there will always be exceptions.
>
> Having said that, I think God would prefer to let men have the role
>of leadership for that is whom the responsibility is placed upon. I
*** well I don't personally believe that God wishes us to be living in
a linear command mindset. I think a group consensus design would work
better living on this very female earth (garden..produce etc.)
>some that some men will exploit that priviledge. Women aren't slaves
>nor are they servants. But, they are to be subjective. It's quite a
>concept when considered as a whole: guidance, achievement, behaviour,
>management and wisdom. Women can do all of these things. But, God
>placed the responsibility of obedience to Him on men, not women. I
>don't know why, but He has. So why rock the boat unless you want that
>accountability instead?
>
**** *He has* only in your interpretation and/or acceptance of scripture
which was written in very patriarchal times with no consideration for the
abilities and intelligences of women.
Rocking the boat is the only way,hopefully, to bring what God is telling
me to others.
>Cheers,
>John
>
All in the Family,
Rev.Brenda