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Creation Museum hits five-year mark
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J
Feb 9, 2012, 11:39:24 PM2/9/12
to
Looks like a great place to bring the entire family.
http://www.onenewsnow.com/Culture/Default.aspx?id=1532340
The Creation Museum near Cincinnati, which will soon celebrate its fifth
anniversary, has reportedly attracted over 1.5 million visitors since
opening.
Answers in Genesis owns the Creation Museum, which was set up to be a
testimony to the truth of the Bible starting in Genesis. Ken Ham is the
museum's co-founder.
"We've had many testimonies now from parents who've come through the
Creation Museum and said it has had a great impact on them and on their
children," says Ham. "It's given people more boldness in going out and
witnessing for the Christian faith."
The 75,000-square-foot museum, which brings the Bible to life and
presents characters and animals in lifelike ways, also has attracted
many non-Christians, says the Christian apologist.
"We've even had groups of atheists, groups of secular scientists,
paleontologists [come through]," Ham says. "In fact, it's attracted some
very famous scientists and others who have come to the Creation Museum.
Even Christopher Hitchens, the famous atheist who died recently, ...
even came to the Creation Museum."
Ham quoted an interesting piece in a newspaper from an atheist scientist
who visited the museum and reported: "That place is so dangerous because
it's so well done -- children are going to believe it."
The next major project for Ham and Answers in Genesis is the Ark
Encounter, scheduled for opening in 2014. The project will feature a
full-scale ark built according to the dimensions outlined in scripture.
--
J Young
jdyo...@ymail.com
Fidem Turbare, atheist goddess
Feb 10, 2012, 2:42:35 AM2/10/12
to
On Feb 9, 8:39 pm, J <jdyou...@ymail.com> wrote:
> Looks like a great place to bring the entire family.
>
> http://www.onenewsnow.com/Culture/Default.aspx?id=1532340
>
[snip]
> Looks like a great place to bring the entire family.
>
> http://www.onenewsnow.com/Culture/Default.aspx?id=1532340
>
> "We've even had groups of atheists, groups of secular scientists,
> paleontologists [come through]," Ham says. "In fact, it's attracted some
> very famous scientists and others who have come to the Creation Museum.
> Even Christopher Hitchens, the famous atheist who died recently, ...
> even came to the Creation Museum."
"Entertainment" is probably what many of them went there for.
> paleontologists [come through]," Ham says. "In fact, it's attracted some
> very famous scientists and others who have come to the Creation Museum.
> Even Christopher Hitchens, the famous atheist who died recently, ...
> even came to the Creation Museum."
> Ham quoted an interesting piece in a newspaper from an atheist scientist
> who visited the museum and reported: "That place is so dangerous because
> it's so well done -- children are going to believe it."
Children are very impressionable, and if their parents aren't
skeptical of incredible claims then there's a good chance that the
children will grow up with the same based-in-faith attitude. The
dangerous aspect is that later in their adult lives, these children
may sacrifice health and safety due to trusting something silly like
"the power of prayer."
--
Fidem Turbare, the non-existent atheist goddess
"Teaching children to question things is the best defense teachers can
give them against the dark arts that is religion. Just as they should
question evolution so they should question religion."
-- Les Hellawell
Loirbaj
Feb 10, 2012, 2:46:15 AM2/10/12
to
Compare the triple secure science of the
Creation Museum with that of very famous
Evolutionism museums. For a hundred years
those presented infamous forgeries to the
gullible public. The fabulous and fictional
animal they called 'Brontosaurus' but which
they knew was the skeleton of one sort of
creature with the skull of an entirely different
type of animal. Or the staged fakes of T rex
which actually had ribs thrown out and
vertebrae chiseled away and tossed out, in
order to fake the pose of 'The Great Predator'.
In fact, Trex was a giant waddling carrior
eater, far from a hunting predator Trex was
equivalent to a giant vulture.
Creation Museum with that of very famous
Evolutionism museums. For a hundred years
those presented infamous forgeries to the
gullible public. The fabulous and fictional
animal they called 'Brontosaurus' but which
they knew was the skeleton of one sort of
creature with the skull of an entirely different
type of animal. Or the staged fakes of T rex
which actually had ribs thrown out and
vertebrae chiseled away and tossed out, in
order to fake the pose of 'The Great Predator'.
In fact, Trex was a giant waddling carrior
eater, far from a hunting predator Trex was
equivalent to a giant vulture.
Josh Miles
Feb 10, 2012, 7:47:00 AM2/10/12
to
On 2/10/2012 1:42 AM, Fidem Turbare, atheist goddess wrote:
> On Feb 9, 8:39 pm, J<jdyou...@ymail.com> wrote:
>> Looks like a great place to bring the entire family.
>>
>> http://www.onenewsnow.com/Culture/Default.aspx?id=1532340
>>
> [snip]
>> "We've even had groups of atheists, groups of secular scientists,
>> paleontologists [come through]," Ham says. "In fact, it's attracted some
>> very famous scientists and others who have come to the Creation Museum.
>> Even Christopher Hitchens, the famous atheist who died recently, ...
>> even came to the Creation Museum."
>
> "Entertainment" is probably what many of them went there for.
Yes, and it makes for very good entertainment:
> On Feb 9, 8:39 pm, J<jdyou...@ymail.com> wrote:
>> Looks like a great place to bring the entire family.
>>
>> http://www.onenewsnow.com/Culture/Default.aspx?id=1532340
>>
> [snip]
>> "We've even had groups of atheists, groups of secular scientists,
>> paleontologists [come through]," Ham says. "In fact, it's attracted some
>> very famous scientists and others who have come to the Creation Museum.
>> Even Christopher Hitchens, the famous atheist who died recently, ...
>> even came to the Creation Museum."
>
> "Entertainment" is probably what many of them went there for.
http://buffalobeast.com/117/let_there_be_retards.htm
Mel Franks
Feb 10, 2012, 8:52:49 AM2/10/12
to
"J" <jdyo...@ymail.com> wrote in message news:5cusj8....@news.alt.net...
>
>
> Looks like a great place to bring the entire family.
>
I would love to check out this monument to stupidity, it would be hilarious!
>
> Looks like a great place to bring the entire family.
>
Not sure if subjecting the entire family to it would be a good idea though.
I wonder how many of the 1.5 million visitors went simply out of morbid curiosity.
Mark Evans
Feb 10, 2012, 9:52:37 AM2/10/12
to
On Feb 10, 5:52 am, "Mel Franks" <m...@xcom.net> wrote:
> "J" <jdyou...@ymail.com> wrote in messagenews:5cusj8....@news.alt.net...
SF writer John Scalzi's rather scathing report on is visit on his
blog at http://www.scalzi.com/whatever Use the earch feature to find
the review. It is a few years old.
Mark Evans
> "J" <jdyou...@ymail.com> wrote in messagenews:5cusj8....@news.alt.net...
>
> > Looks like a great place to bring the entire family.
>
> I would love to check out this monument to stupidity, it would be hilarious!
> Not sure if subjecting the entire family to it would be a good idea though.
> I wonder how many of the 1.5 million visitors went simply out of morbid curiosity.
At least one went as the result of an on-line fund raiser. Check out
> > Looks like a great place to bring the entire family.
>
> I would love to check out this monument to stupidity, it would be hilarious!
> Not sure if subjecting the entire family to it would be a good idea though.
> I wonder how many of the 1.5 million visitors went simply out of morbid curiosity.
SF writer John Scalzi's rather scathing report on is visit on his
blog at http://www.scalzi.com/whatever Use the earch feature to find
the review. It is a few years old.
Mark Evans
harry k
Feb 10, 2012, 10:19:22 AM2/10/12
to
On Feb 9, 8:39 pm, J <jdyou...@ymail.com> wrote:
They should be forced to buil it using only fasteners and material
available back then. I would allow them use of modern tools however.
Harry K
ilbe...@gmail.com
Feb 10, 2012, 10:20:24 AM2/10/12
to
It is indeed a great place for the family. It does a very thorough
and accurate job of exposing the fallacy behind an atheistic
worldview , the frauds Evolutonists have perpetrated with the Monkey
Men lineup , the absurdity of abiogenesis which even atheist
Scientists validate , and the 'billions and billions and millions
and millions' of years for chance and raw materials to accidentally
come up a Human Brain ............all without a shred of
purpose ,mind you . The Creation Museum is a very sore spot with
the Critics , so much so that last time i was there Law Enforcement
in number were present to stop the uncontrolled hatred amongst
Atheists from being manifested thru outward violence .
llbe...@hotmail.com
Feb 10, 2012, 10:38:11 AM2/10/12
to
Just in case anyone cares
I have been diagnosed with the following physical maladies:
Anal Cancer
Chlamydia trachomatis
Cryptosporidium
Giardia lamblia
Herpes simplex virus
Human immunodeficiency virus
Human papilloma virus
Isospora belli
Microsporidia
Gonorrhea
Viral hepatitis types B & C
Syphilis25
Terminal Religious Insanity
I have been diagnosed with the following physical maladies:
Anal Cancer
Chlamydia trachomatis
Cryptosporidium
Giardia lamblia
Herpes simplex virus
Human immunodeficiency virus
Human papilloma virus
Isospora belli
Microsporidia
Gonorrhea
Viral hepatitis types B & C
Syphilis25
Terminal Religious Insanity
Paul David Wright
Feb 10, 2012, 10:41:55 AM2/10/12
to
J <jdyo...@ymail.com> wrote in news:5cusj8....@news.alt.net:
>
>
>
> Looks like a great place to bring the entire family.
>
Yeah, it's filled with as much fairy stories as Disneyland.
--
PDW
Check out my blog:
The first is a preview of my superhero comic book.
http://incognitoheroes.blogspot.com/
http://corneliusaddaptionproject.blogspot.com/
And my books:
http://www.lulu.com/spotlight/pdwright42
>
>
>
> Looks like a great place to bring the entire family.
>
--
PDW
Check out my blog:
The first is a preview of my superhero comic book.
http://incognitoheroes.blogspot.com/
http://corneliusaddaptionproject.blogspot.com/
And my books:
http://www.lulu.com/spotlight/pdwright42
Paul David Wright
Feb 10, 2012, 10:43:19 AM2/10/12
to
Loirbaj <Rhod...@wmconnect.com> wrote in
news:bdf7c3f4-5ea5-4f0f...@db5g2000vbb.googlegroups.com:
> Compare the triple secure science of the
> Creation Museum with that of very famous
> Evolutionism museums.
Yep. One does actual science.
And the Creation Museun doesn't.
news:bdf7c3f4-5ea5-4f0f...@db5g2000vbb.googlegroups.com:
> Compare the triple secure science of the
> Creation Museum with that of very famous
> Evolutionism museums.
And the Creation Museun doesn't.
WrongWayWade
Feb 10, 2012, 2:38:03 PM2/10/12
to
J wrote:
> The next major project for Ham and Answers in Genesis is the Ark
> Encounter, scheduled for opening in 2014. The project will feature a
> full-scale ark built according to the dimensions outlined in
> scripture.
"What's a cubit??" (Bill Cosby)
> The next major project for Ham and Answers in Genesis is the Ark
> Encounter, scheduled for opening in 2014. The project will feature a
> full-scale ark built according to the dimensions outlined in
> scripture.
DanielSan
Feb 10, 2012, 2:37:19 PM2/10/12
to
sbalneav
Feb 10, 2012, 3:07:58 PM2/10/12
to
In alt.atheism J <jdyo...@ymail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Looks like a great place to bring the entire family.
For a good belly laugh and a healthy, hearty, heaping helping
>
>
> Looks like a great place to bring the entire family.
of Schadenfreude
Paul David Wright
Feb 10, 2012, 5:20:42 PM2/10/12
to
"IlBe...@gmail.com" <ilbe...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:b08f3071-627e-4389...@a15g2000yqf.googlegroups.com:
> On Feb 9, 10:39=A0pm, J <jdyou...@ymail.com> wrote:
>> Looks like a great place to bring the entire family.
>>
>> http://www.onenewsnow.com/Culture/Default.aspx?id=3D1532340
IOW, they lie like you do.
news:b08f3071-627e-4389...@a15g2000yqf.googlegroups.com:
> On Feb 9, 10:39=A0pm, J <jdyou...@ymail.com> wrote:
>> Looks like a great place to bring the entire family.
>>
Paul David Wright
Feb 10, 2012, 5:21:31 PM2/10/12
to
"llbe...@gmail.com" <llbe...@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:206a3905-6f62-4b6e...@4g2000pbz.googlegroups.com:
> Just in case anyone cares
>
We don't, asshole.
<Snip desperate attempt at sympathy>
news:206a3905-6f62-4b6e...@4g2000pbz.googlegroups.com:
> Just in case anyone cares
>
<Snip desperate attempt at sympathy>
Paul David Wright
Feb 10, 2012, 5:22:13 PM2/10/12
to
DanielSan <daniel...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:jh3rlp$m0g$3...@dont-email.me:
Heh. Love that sketch!!!
news:jh3rlp$m0g$3...@dont-email.me:
Vurgil
Feb 10, 2012, 6:57:45 PM2/10/12
to
In article
<b08f3071-627e-4389...@a15g2000yqf.googlegroups.com>,
"IlBe...@gmail.com" <ilbe...@gmail.com> wrote:
If any public funds were used in its construction or operation it wold
merely show the illegalities that creationists will go to in spreading
their lies.
<b08f3071-627e-4389...@a15g2000yqf.googlegroups.com>,
"IlBe...@gmail.com" <ilbe...@gmail.com> wrote:
If any public funds were used in its construction or operation it wold
merely show the illegalities that creationists will go to in spreading
their lies.
Vurgil
Feb 10, 2012, 6:59:29 PM2/10/12
to
In article
<bdf7c3f4-5ea5-4f0f...@db5g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,
There is only triple anti-science in your Cretinist museum.
<bdf7c3f4-5ea5-4f0f...@db5g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,
There is only triple anti-science in your Cretinist museum.
Vurgil
Feb 10, 2012, 7:01:32 PM2/10/12
to
In article
<e2798e2a-9997-428d...@bs8g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,
Loirbaj <Rhod...@wmconnect.com> wrote:
> I'd kinda like to send old timer 'budikka'
> money for a ticket to go to the Museum.
> What about it, Ian Wood, can you get
> time away from the lumberyard to go?
Send them the money if you wish, but they may then quite properly decide
to use that money for some honest purpose rather than go see your
monument to propaganda.
<e2798e2a-9997-428d...@bs8g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,
Loirbaj <Rhod...@wmconnect.com> wrote:
> I'd kinda like to send old timer 'budikka'
> money for a ticket to go to the Museum.
> What about it, Ian Wood, can you get
> time away from the lumberyard to go?
Send them the money if you wish, but they may then quite properly decide
to use that money for some honest purpose rather than go see your
monument to propaganda.
Vurgil
Feb 10, 2012, 7:03:18 PM2/10/12
to
In article
<7dbdaeb6-eb76-41d1...@c6g2000vbk.googlegroups.com>,
Loirbaj <Rhod...@wmconnect.com> wrote:
> Dr.Hamm has a secured loan for $5M from the
> State
Then that cretin's museum is illegally funded, supporting religious lies
with public money.
<7dbdaeb6-eb76-41d1...@c6g2000vbk.googlegroups.com>,
Loirbaj <Rhod...@wmconnect.com> wrote:
> Dr.Hamm has a secured loan for $5M from the
> State
Then that cretin's museum is illegally funded, supporting religious lies
with public money.
Gladys Swager
Feb 10, 2012, 7:32:57 PM2/10/12
to
On Feb 11, 11:03 am, Vurgil wrote:
> In article
> <7dbdaeb6-eb76-41d1-91ad-72e32acec...@c6g2000vbk.googlegroups.com>,
the public moneys. Would you approve of public moneys being given
for a programme by Atheists?
Cretin = (Colloq) a very stupid person
- a person suffering from Cretinism - a disease due to the lack of
the thyroid hormone, marked by dwarfism and idocy (Macquarie
Dictionary)
You have the opinion that religions are all lies. But have you checked
all of them
to determine which has the truth.
There are religions and religions in the world and it can be difficult
to know
which are correct and which are not, in whole or in part.
As this topic ia 'aus.religion.christian' it would be hoped through
the discussions
that a greater understanding of truth might come.
What atheists ignore is that the Christian faith, despite its
diversity, has brought
many benefits to this country. Hopefully, in time, many more will
come
to know and live by its basic concepts in its simplest terms
as love God and love others by doing what is right to them
(both aspects need to be expanded)
Atheists may work on the second of those two principles,
but you want more than just that one principle in life.
Gladys Swager
> In article
> <7dbdaeb6-eb76-41d1-91ad-72e32acec...@c6g2000vbk.googlegroups.com>,
> Loirbaj <Rhodi...@wmconnect.com> wrote:
> > Dr.Hamm has a secured loan for $5M from the State
>
> Then that cretin's museum is illegally funded, supporting religious lies
> with public money.
Some more details are necesary concerning the basis for the use of
> > Dr.Hamm has a secured loan for $5M from the State
>
> Then that cretin's museum is illegally funded, supporting religious lies
> with public money.
the public moneys. Would you approve of public moneys being given
for a programme by Atheists?
Cretin = (Colloq) a very stupid person
- a person suffering from Cretinism - a disease due to the lack of
the thyroid hormone, marked by dwarfism and idocy (Macquarie
Dictionary)
You have the opinion that religions are all lies. But have you checked
all of them
to determine which has the truth.
There are religions and religions in the world and it can be difficult
to know
which are correct and which are not, in whole or in part.
As this topic ia 'aus.religion.christian' it would be hoped through
the discussions
that a greater understanding of truth might come.
What atheists ignore is that the Christian faith, despite its
diversity, has brought
many benefits to this country. Hopefully, in time, many more will
come
to know and live by its basic concepts in its simplest terms
as love God and love others by doing what is right to them
(both aspects need to be expanded)
Atheists may work on the second of those two principles,
but you want more than just that one principle in life.
Gladys Swager
Free Lunch
Feb 10, 2012, 7:40:54 PM2/10/12
to
On Fri, 10 Feb 2012 16:32:57 -0800 (PST), Gladys Swager
<gsw...@gmail.com> wrote in alt.talk.creationism:
>On Feb 11, 11:03 am, Vurgil wrote:
>> In article
>> <7dbdaeb6-eb76-41d1-91ad-72e32acec...@c6g2000vbk.googlegroups.com>,
>> Loirbaj <Rhodi...@wmconnect.com> wrote:
>> > Dr.Hamm has a secured loan for $5M from the State
>>
>> Then that cretin's museum is illegally funded, supporting religious lies
>> with public money.
>
>Some more details are necesary concerning the basis for the use of
>the public moneys. Would you approve of public moneys being given
>for a programme by Atheists?
That does not happen in the United States.
>Cretin = (Colloq) a very stupid person
>- a person suffering from Cretinism - a disease due to the lack of
>the thyroid hormone, marked by dwarfism and idocy (Macquarie
>Dictionary)
Did you have a point?
>You have the opinion that religions are all lies. But have you checked
>all of them to determine which has the truth.
None have provided evidence to back up their claims.
>There are religions and religions in the world and it can be difficult
>to know which are correct and which are not, in whole or in part.
>As this topic ia 'aus.religion.christian' it would be hoped through
>the discussions that a greater understanding of truth might come.
Why would you expect truth from people who invented stories about gods
they cannot support with any evidence?
>What atheists ignore is that the Christian faith, despite its
>diversity, has brought many benefits to this country. Hopefully,
>in time, many more will come
>to know and live by its basic concepts in its simplest terms
>as love God and love others by doing what is right to them
>(both aspects need to be expanded)
Western culture developed and flourished after the death of the power of
religion. Millions died in the wars to stop the oppression of people by
religious leaders.
>Atheists may work on the second of those two principles,
>but you want more than just that one principle in life.
>Gladys Swager
I have no reason to believe any claims about any gods. Why waste time
"worshipping" nothing?
<gsw...@gmail.com> wrote in alt.talk.creationism:
>On Feb 11, 11:03 am, Vurgil wrote:
>> In article
>> <7dbdaeb6-eb76-41d1-91ad-72e32acec...@c6g2000vbk.googlegroups.com>,
>> Loirbaj <Rhodi...@wmconnect.com> wrote:
>> > Dr.Hamm has a secured loan for $5M from the State
>>
>> Then that cretin's museum is illegally funded, supporting religious lies
>> with public money.
>
>Some more details are necesary concerning the basis for the use of
>the public moneys. Would you approve of public moneys being given
>for a programme by Atheists?
>Cretin = (Colloq) a very stupid person
>- a person suffering from Cretinism - a disease due to the lack of
>the thyroid hormone, marked by dwarfism and idocy (Macquarie
>Dictionary)
>You have the opinion that religions are all lies. But have you checked
>all of them to determine which has the truth.
>There are religions and religions in the world and it can be difficult
>to know which are correct and which are not, in whole or in part.
>As this topic ia 'aus.religion.christian' it would be hoped through
>the discussions that a greater understanding of truth might come.
they cannot support with any evidence?
>What atheists ignore is that the Christian faith, despite its
>diversity, has brought many benefits to this country. Hopefully,
>in time, many more will come
>to know and live by its basic concepts in its simplest terms
>as love God and love others by doing what is right to them
>(both aspects need to be expanded)
religion. Millions died in the wars to stop the oppression of people by
religious leaders.
>Atheists may work on the second of those two principles,
>but you want more than just that one principle in life.
>Gladys Swager
"worshipping" nothing?
Gladys Swager
Feb 10, 2012, 9:55:35 PM2/10/12
to
On Feb 11, 11:40 am, Free Lunch wrote:
> >Cretin = (Colloq) a very stupid person
> >- a person suffering from Cretinism - a disease due to the lack of
> >the thyroid hormone, marked by dwarfism and idocy (Macquarie
> >Dictionary)
>
> Did you have a point?
>
Yes, you used a term derogatively of Christians who are doing a work
to establish the truth of the Christian gospel
and with humanitarian programmes.
> >You have the opinion that religions are all lies. But have you checked
> >all of them to determine which has the truth.
>
> None have provided evidence to back up their claims.
>
And what are the evidences you want?
Are you a person who if a Christian makes an error - and that is
possible -
that you magnify it in your denigration - you do not seek to find
reasons
that such happened
But what do you do when a Atheist makes an error? Do you try to
conceal it
so that Atheism will not have a bad name?
> >There are religions and religions in the world and it can be difficult
> >to know which are correct and which are not, in whole or in part.
> >As this topic ia 'aus.religion.christian' it would be hoped through
> >the discussions that a greater understanding of truth might come.
>
> Why would you expect truth from people who invented stories about gods
> they cannot support with any evidence?
>
And what is your proof that the Bible writers did invent stories
about
the one true God?.
> >What atheists ignore is that the Christian faith, despite its
> >diversity, has brought many benefits to this country. Hopefully,
> >in time, many more will come
> >to know and live by its basic concepts in its simplest terms
> >as love God and love others by doing what is right to them
> >(both aspects need to be expanded)
>
> Western culture developed and flourished after the death of the power of
> religion. Millions died in the wars to stop the oppression of people by
> religious leaders.
>
Western culture was developing at least from what is called the
Middle Ages
as we know it today with the Christian faith in its true form as the
incentive
in that development. Yes, it can't be denied that there were
movements
prior to that period and after it that were not conduicive to the
betterment
of the societies. But as is said, "Don't throw the baby out with the
bath water!'.
The Second World War. I was close to eleven years old
when the Auatralian Prime Minister announced we were at war.
When Germany (Hitler) invaded Poland England was forced to act
My readings would indicate that Hitler's actions were provocative
as he really wanted England and the British Empire
and he knew England's treaty with Poland that if attacked England
would come to her aid. It took until 1945 for that war to be
resolved.
What if England had refrained from action. Was Hitler of a mind that
it was just Poland he wanted? I very much doubt it.
As for the religious leaders and their supposed repression.
I will grant that religious leaders have made mistakes. .
But have atheists always had 'clean-sheets'
Persons with religious (ie Christian) convictions have been at the
forefront
of many reform movements.
It seems that you have taken you stance on an ill balanced
presentation
of the problems in the world.
My own experience is that as secularism has increased in the post-WW2
years problems in our sociey also increased.
However, I have not the documentation for that in respect
of all societies. As records are made and religion can be required
that would give an incorrect understanding because it may just be
the record was given by parents who no longer adhere to the teachings
ie in Australia of the Biblical scriptures.
> >Atheists may work on the second of those two principles,
> >but you want more than just that one principle in life.
>
And you are free to campaign for a society without a Christian faith
or other religion. But let the debate be above board with open
discussion.
I personally believe that the Christian faith needs to be presented
in
other than the traditional ways with the major denominations coming
to a consensus and presenting it in a public forum.
This country was based on Christian principles with much good done
for the Aborigines who were not able to come into modern day living
by their own efforts. That is not denigrating the Aborigines as they
migrated to Australia with few possessions and had to make-do with
what they could find.
I have had a personal contact with some of the people
who were involved in that work for Aborigines.
Unfortunately when issues are used for political purposes
emphases can be given to suit those purposes.
Gladys Swager
> On Fri, 10 Feb 2012, Gladys Swager wrote:
> >On Feb 11, 11:03 am, Vurgil wrote:
> >On Feb 11, 11:03 am, Vurgil wrote:
> >> Loirbaj wrote:
> >> > Dr.Hamm has a secured loan for $5M from the State
>
> >> Then that cretin's museum is illegally funded, supporting religious lies
> >> with public money.
>
> >Some more details are necesary concerning the basis for the use of
> >the public moneys. Would you approve of public moneys being given
> >for a programme by Atheists?
>
> That does not happen in the United States.
>
Do you have proof of that?
> >> > Dr.Hamm has a secured loan for $5M from the State
>
> >> Then that cretin's museum is illegally funded, supporting religious lies
> >> with public money.
>
> >Some more details are necesary concerning the basis for the use of
> >the public moneys. Would you approve of public moneys being given
> >for a programme by Atheists?
>
> That does not happen in the United States.
>
> >Cretin = (Colloq) a very stupid person
> >- a person suffering from Cretinism - a disease due to the lack of
> >the thyroid hormone, marked by dwarfism and idocy (Macquarie
> >Dictionary)
>
> Did you have a point?
>
to establish the truth of the Christian gospel
and with humanitarian programmes.
> >You have the opinion that religions are all lies. But have you checked
> >all of them to determine which has the truth.
>
> None have provided evidence to back up their claims.
>
Are you a person who if a Christian makes an error - and that is
possible -
that you magnify it in your denigration - you do not seek to find
reasons
that such happened
But what do you do when a Atheist makes an error? Do you try to
conceal it
so that Atheism will not have a bad name?
> >There are religions and religions in the world and it can be difficult
> >to know which are correct and which are not, in whole or in part.
> >As this topic ia 'aus.religion.christian' it would be hoped through
> >the discussions that a greater understanding of truth might come.
>
> Why would you expect truth from people who invented stories about gods
> they cannot support with any evidence?
>
about
the one true God?.
> >What atheists ignore is that the Christian faith, despite its
> >diversity, has brought many benefits to this country. Hopefully,
> >in time, many more will come
> >to know and live by its basic concepts in its simplest terms
> >as love God and love others by doing what is right to them
> >(both aspects need to be expanded)
>
> Western culture developed and flourished after the death of the power of
> religion. Millions died in the wars to stop the oppression of people by
> religious leaders.
>
Middle Ages
as we know it today with the Christian faith in its true form as the
incentive
in that development. Yes, it can't be denied that there were
movements
prior to that period and after it that were not conduicive to the
betterment
of the societies. But as is said, "Don't throw the baby out with the
bath water!'.
The Second World War. I was close to eleven years old
when the Auatralian Prime Minister announced we were at war.
When Germany (Hitler) invaded Poland England was forced to act
My readings would indicate that Hitler's actions were provocative
as he really wanted England and the British Empire
and he knew England's treaty with Poland that if attacked England
would come to her aid. It took until 1945 for that war to be
resolved.
What if England had refrained from action. Was Hitler of a mind that
it was just Poland he wanted? I very much doubt it.
As for the religious leaders and their supposed repression.
I will grant that religious leaders have made mistakes. .
But have atheists always had 'clean-sheets'
Persons with religious (ie Christian) convictions have been at the
forefront
of many reform movements.
It seems that you have taken you stance on an ill balanced
presentation
of the problems in the world.
My own experience is that as secularism has increased in the post-WW2
years problems in our sociey also increased.
However, I have not the documentation for that in respect
of all societies. As records are made and religion can be required
that would give an incorrect understanding because it may just be
the record was given by parents who no longer adhere to the teachings
ie in Australia of the Biblical scriptures.
> >Atheists may work on the second of those two principles,
> >but you want more than just that one principle in life.
>
> I have no reason to believe any claims about any gods. Why waste time
> "worshipping" nothing?
You are free to state there is no God in our society.
> "worshipping" nothing?
And you are free to campaign for a society without a Christian faith
or other religion. But let the debate be above board with open
discussion.
I personally believe that the Christian faith needs to be presented
in
other than the traditional ways with the major denominations coming
to a consensus and presenting it in a public forum.
This country was based on Christian principles with much good done
for the Aborigines who were not able to come into modern day living
by their own efforts. That is not denigrating the Aborigines as they
migrated to Australia with few possessions and had to make-do with
what they could find.
I have had a personal contact with some of the people
who were involved in that work for Aborigines.
Unfortunately when issues are used for political purposes
emphases can be given to suit those purposes.
Gladys Swager
Free Lunch
Feb 11, 2012, 8:34:11 AM2/11/12
to
On Fri, 10 Feb 2012 18:55:35 -0800 (PST), Gladys Swager
<gsw...@gmail.com> wrote in alt.talk.creationism:
>On Feb 11, 11:40 am, Free Lunch wrote:
>> On Fri, 10 Feb 2012, Gladys Swager wrote:
>> >On Feb 11, 11:03 am, Vurgil wrote:
>> >> Loirbaj wrote:
>> >> > Dr.Hamm has a secured loan for $5M from the State
>>
>> >> Then that cretin's museum is illegally funded, supporting religious lies
>> >> with public money.
>>
>> >Some more details are necesary concerning the basis for the use of
>> >the public moneys. Would you approve of public moneys being given
>> >for a programme by Atheists?
>>
>> That does not happen in the United States.
>>
>Do you have proof of that?
Religious nuts in the United States are very intolerant of unbelievers.
If they thought that any government money were going to such a thing,
they would whine to their gutless congressman or go to court. You have
no idea what you are talking about.
>> >Cretin = (Colloq) a very stupid person
>> >- a person suffering from Cretinism - a disease due to the lack of
>> >the thyroid hormone, marked by dwarfism and idocy (Macquarie
>> >Dictionary)
>>
>> Did you have a point?
>>
>Yes, you used a term derogatively of Christians who are doing a work
>to establish the truth of the Christian gospel
>and with humanitarian programmes.
I didn't use the term (though I know that it is said to derive from
Christian), but there is no evidence that any of the special claims in
Christianity are true.
>> >You have the opinion that religions are all lies. But have you checked
>> >all of them to determine which has the truth.
>>
>> None have provided evidence to back up their claims.
>>
>And what are the evidences you want?
Not evidences, evidence. The only time I see anyone saying "evidences"
is when they are talking about imaginary religious claims. I'm asking
about evidence, the stuff that scientists or lawyers use.
>Are you a person who if a Christian makes an error - and that is possible -
>that you magnify it in your denigration - you do not seek to find reasons
>that such happened
If it truly is an error, I offer a correction and expect this person to
go on using the correct information.
>But what do you do when a Atheist makes an error? Do you try to
>conceal it so that Atheism will not have a bad name?
I try to treat everyone the same. Why would I want anyone of any sort to
be making errors? It would be unkind not to correct an error.
>> >There are religions and religions in the world and it can be difficult
>> >to know which are correct and which are not, in whole or in part.
>> >As this topic ia 'aus.religion.christian' it would be hoped through
>> >the discussions that a greater understanding of truth might come.
>>
>> Why would you expect truth from people who invented stories about gods
>> they cannot support with any evidence?
>>
>And what is your proof that the Bible writers did invent stories
>about the one true God?.
The stories in the Bible, from the first one, are completely imaginary,
exaggerated, full of errors, or unconfirmable. There is nothing in the
Bible that has been shown to be trustworthy.
>> >What atheists ignore is that the Christian faith, despite its
>> >diversity, has brought many benefits to this country. Hopefully,
>> >in time, many more will come
>> >to know and live by its basic concepts in its simplest terms
>> >as love God and love others by doing what is right to them
>> >(both aspects need to be expanded)
>>
>> Western culture developed and flourished after the death of the power of
>> religion. Millions died in the wars to stop the oppression of people by
>> religious leaders.
>>
>Western culture was developing at least from what is called the Middle Ages
>as we know it today with the Christian faith in its true form as the incentive
>in that development. Yes, it can't be denied that there were movements
>prior to that period and after it that were not conduicive to the betterment
>of the societies. But as is said, "Don't throw the baby out with the bath water!'.
Religion is not the baby, it is the dirty old bathwater. Religion was a
major cause of the dark ages.
>The Second World War. I was close to eleven years old
>when the Auatralian Prime Minister announced we were at war.
>When Germany (Hitler) invaded Poland England was forced to act
>My readings would indicate that Hitler's actions were provocative
>as he really wanted England and the British Empire
>and he knew England's treaty with Poland that if attacked England
>would come to her aid. It took until 1945 for that war to be
>resolved.
>What if England had refrained from action. Was Hitler of a mind that
>it was just Poland he wanted? I very much doubt it.
Fascinating. Do you forget that most of the religious leaders in Germany
collaborated with Hitler? Hitler never claimed to be anything but
Catholic.
>As for the religious leaders and their supposed repression.
>I will grant that religious leaders have made mistakes. .
>But have atheists always had 'clean-sheets'
I don't say they do, but atheists do not use religion as a reason to do
anything. They have thrown religion away.
>Persons with religious (ie Christian) convictions have been at the
>forefront of many reform movements.
In the United States they caused our Civil War by using Christianity to
justify the fact that they owned chattel slaves. They engaged in treason
and caused the worst war our country ever suffered.
>It seems that you have taken you stance on an ill balanced
>presentation of the problems in the world.
I don't believe in any gods, so when I see evil done in the name of some
god or other, I don't actually blame that god for the evil done in his
nae.
>My own experience is that as secularism has increased in the post-WW2
>years problems in our sociey also increased.
Yes, there have been jokes for millennia about old folks complaining
about how the world is going to hell. The old folks are almost always
wrong.
>However, I have not the documentation for that in respect
>of all societies. As records are made and religion can be required
>that would give an incorrect understanding because it may just be
>the record was given by parents who no longer adhere to the teachings
>ie in Australia of the Biblical scriptures.
There is little value to be found in the Bible. Aside from many of
Jesus' teachings, the Bible is generally full of errorfilled history,
myths that tell us that God is a short-tempered jerk, very nasty rules
and bad advice.
>> >Atheists may work on the second of those two principles,
>> >but you want more than just that one principle in life.
>>
>> I have no reason to believe any claims about any gods. Why waste time
>> "worshipping" nothing?
>
>You are free to state there is no God in our society.
You are not paying attention.
>And you are free to campaign for a society without a Christian faith
>or other religion. But let the debate be above board with open
>discussion.
I am quite aboveboard. You are the one misrepresenting what I have done.
>I personally believe that the Christian faith needs to be presented in
>other than the traditional ways with the major denominations coming
>to a consensus and presenting it in a public forum.
Why? No evidence supports the special claims that Christian doctrine
makes.
>This country was based on Christian principles with much good done
>for the Aborigines who were not able to come into modern day living
>by their own efforts.
You assume that they wanted to be dragged into your society. Are you
really so ignorant and self-absorbed that you have no idea how badly the
arrival of the British hurt this original population.
>That is not denigrating the Aborigines as they
>migrated to Australia with few possessions and had to make-do with
>what they could find.
You are completely ignorant of your own country's history.
>I have had a personal contact with some of the people
>who were involved in that work for Aborigines.
God forbid you learn from the original people how badly your people
destroyed their nations.
>Unfortunately when issues are used for political purposes
>emphases can be given to suit those purposes.
Yet you do exactly that. Do you blame God for the lies you tell?
<gsw...@gmail.com> wrote in alt.talk.creationism:
>On Feb 11, 11:40 am, Free Lunch wrote:
>> On Fri, 10 Feb 2012, Gladys Swager wrote:
>> >On Feb 11, 11:03 am, Vurgil wrote:
>> >> Loirbaj wrote:
>> >> > Dr.Hamm has a secured loan for $5M from the State
>>
>> >> Then that cretin's museum is illegally funded, supporting religious lies
>> >> with public money.
>>
>> >Some more details are necesary concerning the basis for the use of
>> >the public moneys. Would you approve of public moneys being given
>> >for a programme by Atheists?
>>
>> That does not happen in the United States.
>>
>Do you have proof of that?
If they thought that any government money were going to such a thing,
they would whine to their gutless congressman or go to court. You have
no idea what you are talking about.
>> >Cretin = (Colloq) a very stupid person
>> >- a person suffering from Cretinism - a disease due to the lack of
>> >the thyroid hormone, marked by dwarfism and idocy (Macquarie
>> >Dictionary)
>>
>> Did you have a point?
>>
>Yes, you used a term derogatively of Christians who are doing a work
>to establish the truth of the Christian gospel
>and with humanitarian programmes.
Christian), but there is no evidence that any of the special claims in
Christianity are true.
>> >You have the opinion that religions are all lies. But have you checked
>> >all of them to determine which has the truth.
>>
>> None have provided evidence to back up their claims.
>>
>And what are the evidences you want?
is when they are talking about imaginary religious claims. I'm asking
about evidence, the stuff that scientists or lawyers use.
>Are you a person who if a Christian makes an error - and that is possible -
>that you magnify it in your denigration - you do not seek to find reasons
>that such happened
go on using the correct information.
>But what do you do when a Atheist makes an error? Do you try to
>conceal it so that Atheism will not have a bad name?
be making errors? It would be unkind not to correct an error.
>> >There are religions and religions in the world and it can be difficult
>> >to know which are correct and which are not, in whole or in part.
>> >As this topic ia 'aus.religion.christian' it would be hoped through
>> >the discussions that a greater understanding of truth might come.
>>
>> Why would you expect truth from people who invented stories about gods
>> they cannot support with any evidence?
>>
>And what is your proof that the Bible writers did invent stories
>about the one true God?.
exaggerated, full of errors, or unconfirmable. There is nothing in the
Bible that has been shown to be trustworthy.
>> >What atheists ignore is that the Christian faith, despite its
>> >diversity, has brought many benefits to this country. Hopefully,
>> >in time, many more will come
>> >to know and live by its basic concepts in its simplest terms
>> >as love God and love others by doing what is right to them
>> >(both aspects need to be expanded)
>>
>> Western culture developed and flourished after the death of the power of
>> religion. Millions died in the wars to stop the oppression of people by
>> religious leaders.
>>
>Western culture was developing at least from what is called the Middle Ages
>as we know it today with the Christian faith in its true form as the incentive
>in that development. Yes, it can't be denied that there were movements
>prior to that period and after it that were not conduicive to the betterment
>of the societies. But as is said, "Don't throw the baby out with the bath water!'.
major cause of the dark ages.
>The Second World War. I was close to eleven years old
>when the Auatralian Prime Minister announced we were at war.
>When Germany (Hitler) invaded Poland England was forced to act
>My readings would indicate that Hitler's actions were provocative
>as he really wanted England and the British Empire
>and he knew England's treaty with Poland that if attacked England
>would come to her aid. It took until 1945 for that war to be
>resolved.
>What if England had refrained from action. Was Hitler of a mind that
>it was just Poland he wanted? I very much doubt it.
collaborated with Hitler? Hitler never claimed to be anything but
Catholic.
>As for the religious leaders and their supposed repression.
>I will grant that religious leaders have made mistakes. .
>But have atheists always had 'clean-sheets'
anything. They have thrown religion away.
>Persons with religious (ie Christian) convictions have been at the
>forefront of many reform movements.
justify the fact that they owned chattel slaves. They engaged in treason
and caused the worst war our country ever suffered.
>It seems that you have taken you stance on an ill balanced
>presentation of the problems in the world.
god or other, I don't actually blame that god for the evil done in his
nae.
>My own experience is that as secularism has increased in the post-WW2
>years problems in our sociey also increased.
about how the world is going to hell. The old folks are almost always
wrong.
>However, I have not the documentation for that in respect
>of all societies. As records are made and religion can be required
>that would give an incorrect understanding because it may just be
>the record was given by parents who no longer adhere to the teachings
>ie in Australia of the Biblical scriptures.
Jesus' teachings, the Bible is generally full of errorfilled history,
myths that tell us that God is a short-tempered jerk, very nasty rules
and bad advice.
>> >Atheists may work on the second of those two principles,
>> >but you want more than just that one principle in life.
>>
>> I have no reason to believe any claims about any gods. Why waste time
>> "worshipping" nothing?
>
>You are free to state there is no God in our society.
>And you are free to campaign for a society without a Christian faith
>or other religion. But let the debate be above board with open
>discussion.
>I personally believe that the Christian faith needs to be presented in
>other than the traditional ways with the major denominations coming
>to a consensus and presenting it in a public forum.
makes.
>This country was based on Christian principles with much good done
>for the Aborigines who were not able to come into modern day living
>by their own efforts.
really so ignorant and self-absorbed that you have no idea how badly the
arrival of the British hurt this original population.
>That is not denigrating the Aborigines as they
>migrated to Australia with few possessions and had to make-do with
>what they could find.
>I have had a personal contact with some of the people
>who were involved in that work for Aborigines.
destroyed their nations.
>Unfortunately when issues are used for political purposes
>emphases can be given to suit those purposes.
Gladys Swager
Feb 11, 2012, 5:11:22 PM2/11/12
to
On Feb 12, 12:34 am, Free Lunch wrote:
God
How could nobody make somethings out of nothing?
At sometime in your thinking you have to acknowledge a First Cause.
The Bible presents God Almighty as the one who brought everything into
being.
The Bible also indicates how the creation made by the perfect God
became imperfect.
>
>.... but there is no evidence that any of the special claims in
they use many evidences (plural)
> If it truly is an error, I offer a correction and expect this person to
> go on using the correct information.
>
So you have all the answers, you know what others do not know.
If a person does make an error and you correct it, that does not
necessarily mean that other statements by that person are incorrect.
> >But what do you do when a Atheist makes an error? Do you try to
> >conceal it so that Atheism will not have a bad name?
>
> I try to treat everyone the same. Why would I want anyone of any sort to
> be making errors? It would be unkind not to correct an error.
>
> >> >There are religions and religions in the world and it can be difficult
> >> >to know which are correct and which are not, in whole or in part.
> >> >As this topic ia 'aus.religion.christian' it would be hoped through
> >> >the discussions that a greater understanding of truth might come.
>
> >> Why would you expect truth from people who invented stories about gods
> >> they cannot support with any evidence?
>
And you have no understanding that it was God Who revealed Himself
to certain humans as contained in the accounts in the Bible. .
> >And what is your proof that the Bible writers did invent stories
> >about the one true God?.
>
> The stories in the Bible, from the first one, are completely imaginary,
> exaggerated, full of errors, or unconfirmable. There is nothing in the
> Bible that has been shown to be trustworthy.
>
They can't be proved in present time. The Bible is an historical
record of
peoples known to exist in that period of time, warts and all.
If the Bible was a glorified presentation of the accounts of peoples
in it
there would be reason for doubting it.
and the additions that were made to it when the Biblical scriptures
were
not available to the common people. Hand writing of the scriptures
was
very time consumming and relatively few copies were made.
It was the invention of the printing press in the mid 1400's that
meant
more people could own and read the scriptures for themselves.
But that movement took time.
he allowed
his expereiences in the trenches of France in the First World War in
the years
1917 -1918 to fester into desires fror reprisal and working to bring
Germany
out of the depression he paved the way for the factories to be quickly
turned into
assembly plants for war machines. Was the rest of the world to sit
idly by
and allow him to become the world's dictator?. .
If he had had a better knowledge of the teachings of Jesus Christ he
would have
encouraged co-operation between the national groups in Europe.
> >As for the religious leaders and their supposed repression.
> >I will grant that religious leaders have made mistakes. .
> >But have atheists always had 'clean-sheets'
>
> I don't say they do, but atheists do not use religion as a reason to do
> anything. They have thrown religion away.
>
Atheists use their understandings of atheism....they would like
to convert all peoples into godless societies.
> >Persons with religious (ie Christian) convictions have been at the
> >forefront of many reform movements.
>
> In the United States they caused our Civil War by using Christianity to
> justify the fact that they owned chattel slaves. They engaged in treason
> and caused the worst war our country ever suffered.
>
And William Wilberforce, a Christian politician in England, was able
to move
for the abolition of slavery.
> >It seems that you have taken you stance on an ill balanced
> >presentation of the problems in the world.
>
> I don't believe in any gods, so when I see evil done in the name of some
> god or other, I don't actually blame that god for the evil done in his
> name.
>
Evil is done by men and women as they act on their own desires;
and gaining support of others.
When the English came to Sydney in 1788 there were instrauctions from
the authorities in England to help the Aborigines as best as the
settlers
were able to do. It was a mammoth task even to learn to communicate
with the Aborigines and to help them develop better ways of living.
If those years are understood in the context of their times there
will
be a different understanding than given by those who sought to use
the situation for their own political advantage.
I have seen a map that shows about 300 territories covering the
whole
continent before the Eighteenth Century, territories in which the
Aborigines
wandered round in their walk-abouts to collect natural grown food
supplies.
It was Christians in many instances who lived among the Aborigines
helping them to adopt better ways of survival as they were able to do
so.
That was not given through many media programmes from the 1970's
as certain persons gave an imbalanced understanding of the contact
between Aborigines and settlers.
> >My own experience is that as secularism has increased in the post-WW2
> >years problems in our sociey also increased.
>
> Yes, there have been jokes for millennia about old folks complaining
> about how the world is going to hell. The old folks are almost always
> wrong.
>
> >However, I have not the documentation for that in respect
> >of all societies. As records are made and religion can be required
> >that would give an incorrect understanding because it may just be
> >the record was given by parents who no longer adhere to the teachings
> >ie in Australia of the Biblical scriptures.
>
> There is little value to be found in the Bible. Aside from many of
> Jesus' teachings, the Bible is generally full of errorfilled history,
> myths that tell us that God is a short-tempered jerk, very nasty rules
> and bad advice.
>
And so God was expected 'to turn a blind eye' on wrong doing?
> >> >Atheists may work on the second of those two principles,
> >> >but you want more than just that one principle in life.
>
> >> I have no reason to believe any claims about any gods. Why waste time
> >> "worshipping" nothing?
>
You 'worship'....... a Mr Nobody who made somethings out of nothing.
Sounds like nonsense to me.
> >You are free to state there is no God in our society.
Somewhat of a foolish statemnt. .
> >I personally believe that the Christian faith needs to be presented in
> >other than the traditional ways with the major denominations coming
> >to a consensus and presenting it in a public forum.
>
> Why? No evidence supports the special claims that Christian doctrine
> makes.
>
> >This country was based on Christian principles with much good done
> >for the Aborigines who were not able to come into modern day living
> >by their own efforts.
>
> You assume that they wanted to be dragged into your society. Are you
> really so ignorant and self-absorbed that you have no idea how badly the
> arrival of the British hurt this original population.
>
> >That is not denigrating the Aborigines as they
> >migrated to Australia with few possessions and had to make-do with
> >what they could find.
>
> You are completely ignorant of your own country's history.
>
> >I have had a personal contact with some of the people
> >who were involved in that work for Aborigines.
>
> God forbid you learn from the original people how badly your people
> destroyed their nations.
>
> >Unfortunately when issues are used for political purposes
> >emphases can be given to suit those purposes.
>
> Yet you do exactly that. Do you blame God for the lies you tell?
>
I am not telling lies. I have posted as I understand and in some
instances
have seen the actions of Christians in this country, and I would also
believe in yours, especially those Christians who have worked to make
the world they lived in a better place.
It is the Atheists who have run with statements contrary to the
Christian faith
who have denigrated Christians who worked from few resources and
in many difficulties..
Gladys Swager
> On Fri, 10 Feb 2012), Gladys Swager wrote in alt.talk.creationism:
> >On Feb 11, 11:40 am, Free Lunch wrote:
> >> On Fri, 10 Feb 2012, Gladys Swager wrote:
> If they thought that any government moneys were going to such a thing,
> >On Feb 11, 11:40 am, Free Lunch wrote:
> >> On Fri, 10 Feb 2012, Gladys Swager wrote:
> they would whine to their gutless congressman or go to court. You have
> no idea what you are talking about.
>
And do you know what you are talking about when you say there is no
> no idea what you are talking about.
>
God
How could nobody make somethings out of nothing?
At sometime in your thinking you have to acknowledge a First Cause.
The Bible presents God Almighty as the one who brought everything into
being.
The Bible also indicates how the creation made by the perfect God
became imperfect.
>
>.... but there is no evidence that any of the special claims in
> Christianity are true.
>
> >> >You have the opinion that religions are all lies. But have you checked
> >> >all of them to determine which has the truth.
>
> >> None have provided evidence to back up their claims.
>
> >And what are the evidences you want?
>
> Not evidences, evidence. The only time I see anyone saying "evidences"
> is when they are talking about imaginary religious claims. I'm asking
> about evidence, the stuff that scientists or lawyers use.
>
And scientists and lawyers just don't work on evidence (singular)
>
> >> >You have the opinion that religions are all lies. But have you checked
> >> >all of them to determine which has the truth.
>
> >> None have provided evidence to back up their claims.
>
> >And what are the evidences you want?
>
> Not evidences, evidence. The only time I see anyone saying "evidences"
> is when they are talking about imaginary religious claims. I'm asking
> about evidence, the stuff that scientists or lawyers use.
>
they use many evidences (plural)
> If it truly is an error, I offer a correction and expect this person to
> go on using the correct information.
>
If a person does make an error and you correct it, that does not
necessarily mean that other statements by that person are incorrect.
> >But what do you do when a Atheist makes an error? Do you try to
> >conceal it so that Atheism will not have a bad name?
>
> I try to treat everyone the same. Why would I want anyone of any sort to
> be making errors? It would be unkind not to correct an error.
>
> >> >There are religions and religions in the world and it can be difficult
> >> >to know which are correct and which are not, in whole or in part.
> >> >As this topic ia 'aus.religion.christian' it would be hoped through
> >> >the discussions that a greater understanding of truth might come.
>
> >> Why would you expect truth from people who invented stories about gods
> >> they cannot support with any evidence?
>
to certain humans as contained in the accounts in the Bible. .
> >And what is your proof that the Bible writers did invent stories
> >about the one true God?.
>
> The stories in the Bible, from the first one, are completely imaginary,
> exaggerated, full of errors, or unconfirmable. There is nothing in the
> Bible that has been shown to be trustworthy.
>
record of
peoples known to exist in that period of time, warts and all.
If the Bible was a glorified presentation of the accounts of peoples
in it
there would be reason for doubting it.
>
> >> >What atheists ignore is that the Christian faith, despite its
> >> >diversity, has brought many benefits to this country. Hopefully,
> >> >in time, many more will come
> >> >to know and live by its basic concepts in its simplest terms
> >> >as love God and love others by doing what is right to them
> >> >(both aspects need to be expanded)
>
> >> Western culture developed and flourished after the death of the power of
> >> religion. Millions died in the wars to stop the oppression of people by
> >> religious leaders.
>
> >Western culture was developing at least from what is called the Middle Ages
> >as we know it today with the Christian faith as the incentive
> >> >What atheists ignore is that the Christian faith, despite its
> >> >diversity, has brought many benefits to this country. Hopefully,
> >> >in time, many more will come
> >> >to know and live by its basic concepts in its simplest terms
> >> >as love God and love others by doing what is right to them
> >> >(both aspects need to be expanded)
>
> >> Western culture developed and flourished after the death of the power of
> >> religion. Millions died in the wars to stop the oppression of people by
> >> religious leaders.
>
> >Western culture was developing at least from what is called the Middle Ages
> >in that development. Yes, it can't be denied that there were movements
> >prior to that period and after it that were not conduicive to the betterment
> >of the societies. But as is said, "Don't throw the baby out with the bath water!'.
>
> Religion is not the baby, it is the dirty old bathwater. Religion was a
> major cause of the dark ages.
>
It was the incorrect understandings of the Christian faith
> >prior to that period and after it that were not conduicive to the betterment
> >of the societies. But as is said, "Don't throw the baby out with the bath water!'.
>
> Religion is not the baby, it is the dirty old bathwater. Religion was a
> major cause of the dark ages.
>
and the additions that were made to it when the Biblical scriptures
were
not available to the common people. Hand writing of the scriptures
was
very time consumming and relatively few copies were made.
It was the invention of the printing press in the mid 1400's that
meant
more people could own and read the scriptures for themselves.
But that movement took time.
>
> Fascinating. Do you forget that most of the religious leaders in Germany
> collaborated with Hitler? Hitler never claimed to be anything but
> Catholic.
>
Hitler had a warped brain. From my readings I am of the opinion that
> Fascinating. Do you forget that most of the religious leaders in Germany
> collaborated with Hitler? Hitler never claimed to be anything but
> Catholic.
>
he allowed
his expereiences in the trenches of France in the First World War in
the years
1917 -1918 to fester into desires fror reprisal and working to bring
Germany
out of the depression he paved the way for the factories to be quickly
turned into
assembly plants for war machines. Was the rest of the world to sit
idly by
and allow him to become the world's dictator?. .
If he had had a better knowledge of the teachings of Jesus Christ he
would have
encouraged co-operation between the national groups in Europe.
> >As for the religious leaders and their supposed repression.
> >I will grant that religious leaders have made mistakes. .
> >But have atheists always had 'clean-sheets'
>
> I don't say they do, but atheists do not use religion as a reason to do
> anything. They have thrown religion away.
>
to convert all peoples into godless societies.
> >Persons with religious (ie Christian) convictions have been at the
> >forefront of many reform movements.
>
> In the United States they caused our Civil War by using Christianity to
> justify the fact that they owned chattel slaves. They engaged in treason
> and caused the worst war our country ever suffered.
>
to move
for the abolition of slavery.
> >It seems that you have taken you stance on an ill balanced
> >presentation of the problems in the world.
>
> I don't believe in any gods, so when I see evil done in the name of some
> god or other, I don't actually blame that god for the evil done in his
>
Evil is done by men and women as they act on their own desires;
and gaining support of others.
When the English came to Sydney in 1788 there were instrauctions from
the authorities in England to help the Aborigines as best as the
settlers
were able to do. It was a mammoth task even to learn to communicate
with the Aborigines and to help them develop better ways of living.
If those years are understood in the context of their times there
will
be a different understanding than given by those who sought to use
the situation for their own political advantage.
I have seen a map that shows about 300 territories covering the
whole
continent before the Eighteenth Century, territories in which the
Aborigines
wandered round in their walk-abouts to collect natural grown food
supplies.
It was Christians in many instances who lived among the Aborigines
helping them to adopt better ways of survival as they were able to do
so.
That was not given through many media programmes from the 1970's
as certain persons gave an imbalanced understanding of the contact
between Aborigines and settlers.
> >My own experience is that as secularism has increased in the post-WW2
> >years problems in our sociey also increased.
>
> Yes, there have been jokes for millennia about old folks complaining
> about how the world is going to hell. The old folks are almost always
> wrong.
>
> >However, I have not the documentation for that in respect
> >of all societies. As records are made and religion can be required
> >that would give an incorrect understanding because it may just be
> >the record was given by parents who no longer adhere to the teachings
> >ie in Australia of the Biblical scriptures.
>
> There is little value to be found in the Bible. Aside from many of
> Jesus' teachings, the Bible is generally full of errorfilled history,
> myths that tell us that God is a short-tempered jerk, very nasty rules
> and bad advice.
>
> >> >Atheists may work on the second of those two principles,
> >> >but you want more than just that one principle in life.
>
> >> I have no reason to believe any claims about any gods. Why waste time
> >> "worshipping" nothing?
>
Sounds like nonsense to me.
> >You are free to state there is no God in our society.
> >And you are free to campaign for a society without a Christian faith
> >or other religion. But let the debate be above board with open
> >discussion.
>
> I am quite aboveboard. You are the one misrepresenting what I have done.
>
How am I misrepresenting what you have done?
> >or other religion. But let the debate be above board with open
> >discussion.
>
> I am quite aboveboard. You are the one misrepresenting what I have done.
>
Somewhat of a foolish statemnt. .
> >I personally believe that the Christian faith needs to be presented in
> >other than the traditional ways with the major denominations coming
> >to a consensus and presenting it in a public forum.
>
> Why? No evidence supports the special claims that Christian doctrine
> makes.
>
> >This country was based on Christian principles with much good done
> >for the Aborigines who were not able to come into modern day living
> >by their own efforts.
>
> You assume that they wanted to be dragged into your society. Are you
> really so ignorant and self-absorbed that you have no idea how badly the
> arrival of the British hurt this original population.
>
> >That is not denigrating the Aborigines as they
> >migrated to Australia with few possessions and had to make-do with
> >what they could find.
>
> You are completely ignorant of your own country's history.
>
> >I have had a personal contact with some of the people
> >who were involved in that work for Aborigines.
>
> God forbid you learn from the original people how badly your people
> destroyed their nations.
>
> >Unfortunately when issues are used for political purposes
> >emphases can be given to suit those purposes.
>
> Yet you do exactly that. Do you blame God for the lies you tell?
>
instances
have seen the actions of Christians in this country, and I would also
believe in yours, especially those Christians who have worked to make
the world they lived in a better place.
It is the Atheists who have run with statements contrary to the
Christian faith
who have denigrated Christians who worked from few resources and
in many difficulties..
Gladys Swager
Kelsey Bjarnason
Feb 11, 2012, 1:20:00 PM2/11/12
to
On Thu, 09 Feb 2012 20:39:24 -0800, J wrote:
> Looks like a great place to bring the entire family.
Yeah, we've been looking for a new comedy club, and it would be hard to
> Looks like a great place to bring the entire family.
top this place for sheer hilarity value.
> Ham quoted an interesting piece in a newspaper from an atheist scientist
> who visited the museum and reported: "That place is so dangerous because
> it's so well done -- children are going to believe it."
incorrectness, rather than praising it for having any actual worth, right?
> The next major project for Ham and Answers in Genesis is the Ark
> Encounter, scheduled for opening in 2014. The project will feature a
> full-scale ark built according to the dimensions outlined in scripture.
that a miracle only the fiction writers could pull off?
Barry OGrady
Feb 11, 2012, 7:44:26 PM2/11/12
to
On Sat, 11 Feb 2012 14:11:22 -0800 (PST), Gladys Swager
<gsw...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Feb 12, 12:34 am, Free Lunch wrote:
>> On Fri, 10 Feb 2012), Gladys Swager wrote in alt.talk.creationism:
>> >On Feb 11, 11:40 am, Free Lunch wrote:
>> >> On Fri, 10 Feb 2012, Gladys Swager wrote:
>
>> If they thought that any government moneys were going to such a thing,
>> they would whine to their gutless congressman or go to court. You have
>> no idea what you are talking about.
>>
>And do you know what you are talking about when you say there is no
>God.
<gsw...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Feb 12, 12:34 am, Free Lunch wrote:
>> On Fri, 10 Feb 2012), Gladys Swager wrote in alt.talk.creationism:
>> >On Feb 11, 11:40 am, Free Lunch wrote:
>> >> On Fri, 10 Feb 2012, Gladys Swager wrote:
>
>> If they thought that any government moneys were going to such a thing,
>> they would whine to their gutless congressman or go to court. You have
>> no idea what you are talking about.
>>
>And do you know what you are talking about when you say there is no
We do know there is no Christian God.
>How could nobody make somethings out of nothing?
>At sometime in your thinking you have to acknowledge a First Cause.
or even if everything began.
>The Bible presents God Almighty as the one who brought everything into
>being.
>The Bible also indicates how the creation made by the perfect God
>became imperfect.
Every word of the bible is true, and we know the bible is true
because the bible says the bible is true, and if you remember
from the beginning of this sentence every word of the bible
is true.
Are you following me here or are you some kind of
religious zealot?
>>.... but there is no evidence that any of the special claims in
>> Christianity are true.
>>
>> >> >You have the opinion that religions are all lies. But have you checked
>> >> >all of them to determine which has the truth.
>>
>> >> None have provided evidence to back up their claims.
>>
>> >And what are the evidences you want?
>>
>> Not evidences, evidence. The only time I see anyone saying "evidences"
>> is when they are talking about imaginary religious claims. I'm asking
>> about evidence, the stuff that scientists or lawyers use.
>>
>And scientists and lawyers just don't work on evidence (singular)
>they use many evidences (plural)
>> If it truly is an error, I offer a correction and expect this person to
>> go on using the correct information.
>>
>So you have all the answers, you know what others do not know.
>If a person does make an error and you correct it, that does not
>necessarily mean that other statements by that person are incorrect.
>
>> >But what do you do when a Atheist makes an error? Do you try to
>> >conceal it so that Atheism will not have a bad name?
>>
>> I try to treat everyone the same. Why would I want anyone of any sort to
>> be making errors? It would be unkind not to correct an error.
>>
>> >> >There are religions and religions in the world and it can be difficult
>> >> >to know which are correct and which are not, in whole or in part.
>> >> >As this topic ia 'aus.religion.christian' it would be hoped through
>> >> >the discussions that a greater understanding of truth might come.
>>
>> >> Why would you expect truth from people who invented stories about gods
>> >> they cannot support with any evidence?
>>
>And you have no understanding that it was God Who revealed Himself
>to certain humans as contained in the accounts in the Bible. .
>> >And what is your proof that the Bible writers did invent stories
>> >about the one true God?.
>>
>> The stories in the Bible, from the first one, are completely imaginary,
>> exaggerated, full of errors, or unconfirmable. There is nothing in the
>> Bible that has been shown to be trustworthy.
>>
>They can't be proved in present time. The Bible is an historical
>record of peoples known to exist in that period of time, warts and all.
>If the Bible was a glorified presentation of the accounts of peoples
>in it there would be reason for doubting it.
>> >> >What atheists ignore is that the Christian faith, despite its
>> >> >diversity, has brought many benefits to this country. Hopefully,
>> >> >in time, many more will come
>> >> >to know and live by its basic concepts in its simplest terms
>> >> >as love God and love others by doing what is right to them
>> >> >(both aspects need to be expanded)
>>
>> >> Western culture developed and flourished after the death of the power of
>> >> religion. Millions died in the wars to stop the oppression of people by
>> >> religious leaders.
>>
>> >Western culture was developing at least from what is called the Middle Ages
>> >as we know it today with the Christian faith as the incentive
>> >in that development. Yes, it can't be denied that there were movements
>> >prior to that period and after it that were not conduicive to the betterment
>> >of the societies. But as is said, "Don't throw the baby out with the bath water!'.
>>
>> Religion is not the baby, it is the dirty old bathwater. Religion was a
>> major cause of the dark ages.
>>
>It was the incorrect understandings of the Christian faith
>and the additions that were made to it when the Biblical scriptures
>were not available to the common people. Hand writing of the
>scriptures was very time consumming and relatively few copies
>were made.
>It was the invention of the printing press in the mid 1400's that
>meant more people could own and read the scriptures for themselves.
>But that movement took time.
Cry aloud: for he is a god; either he is talking, or he is pursuing,
or he is in a journey, or peradventure he sleepeth, and must be
awaked.
>> Fascinating. Do you forget that most of the religious leaders in Germany
>> collaborated with Hitler? Hitler never claimed to be anything but
>> Catholic.
>>
>Hitler had a warped brain.
can be warped? If you are right that would make God responsible
for every thought and every action.
>From my readings I am of the opinion that he allowed his expereiences
>in the trenches of France in the First World War in the years
>1917 -1918 to fester into desires fror reprisal and working to bring
>Germany out of the depression he paved the way for the factories to be quickly
>turned into assembly plants for war machines. Was the rest of the world to sit
>idly by and allow him to become the world's dictator?. .
>If he had had a better knowledge of the teachings of Jesus Christ he
>would have encouraged co-operation between the national groups in Europe.
Cry aloud: for he is a god; either he is talking, or he is pursuing,
or he is in a journey, or peradventure he sleepeth, and must be
awaked.
>> >As for the religious leaders and their supposed repression.
>> >I will grant that religious leaders have made mistakes. .
>> >But have atheists always had 'clean-sheets'
>>
>> I don't say they do, but atheists do not use religion as a reason to do
>> anything. They have thrown religion away.
>>
>Atheists use their understandings of atheism....they would like
>to convert all peoples into godless societies.
>
>> >Persons with religious (ie Christian) convictions have been at the
>> >forefront of many reform movements.
>>
>> In the United States they caused our Civil War by using Christianity to
>> justify the fact that they owned chattel slaves. They engaged in treason
>> and caused the worst war our country ever suffered.
>>
>And William Wilberforce, a Christian politician in England, was able
>to move for the abolition of slavery.
>> >It seems that you have taken you stance on an ill balanced
>> >presentation of the problems in the world.
>>
>> I don't believe in any gods, so when I see evil done in the name of some
>> god or other, I don't actually blame that god for the evil done in his
>> name.
>>
>Evil is done by men and women as they act on their own desires;
>and gaining support of others.
Cry aloud: for he is a god; either he is talking, or he is pursuing,
or he is in a journey, or peradventure he sleepeth, and must be
awaked.
The bible does show God in a very poor light.
>> >> >Atheists may work on the second of those two principles,
>> >> >but you want more than just that one principle in life.
>>
>> >> I have no reason to believe any claims about any gods. Why waste time
>> >> "worshipping" nothing?
>>
>You 'worship'....... a Mr Nobody who made somethings out of nothing.
>Sounds like nonsense to me.
nobody from nowhere that magically made everything from
nothing, and that is nonsense.
If Christianity motivates some people to do good that is a
good thing, but does not change the fact that Christianity
is fiction.
>Gladys Swager
=-=-=-=-==-=-=-=
God is a spirit. 0% proof!
Free Lunch
Feb 11, 2012, 11:33:52 PM2/11/12
to
On Sat, 11 Feb 2012 14:11:22 -0800 (PST), Gladys Swager
<gsw...@gmail.com> wrote in alt.talk.creationism:
Learn English.
Learn science.
I'm tired of your religious lies.
<gsw...@gmail.com> wrote in alt.talk.creationism:
Learn science.
I'm tired of your religious lies.
Barry OGrady
Feb 12, 2012, 12:04:13 AM2/12/12
to
On Sat, 11 Feb 2012 22:33:52 -0600, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us>
wrote:
>On Sat, 11 Feb 2012 14:11:22 -0800 (PST), Gladys Swager
><gsw...@gmail.com> wrote in alt.talk.creationism:
wrote:
>On Sat, 11 Feb 2012 14:11:22 -0800 (PST), Gladys Swager
><gsw...@gmail.com> wrote in alt.talk.creationism:
>>And scientists and lawyers just don't work on evidence (singular)
>>they use many evidences (plural)
>
>Learn English.
>
>Learn science.
>
>I'm tired of your religious lies.
Gladys doesn't lie. She regurgitates lies.
>>they use many evidences (plural)
>
>Learn English.
>
>Learn science.
>
>I'm tired of your religious lies.
harry k
Feb 12, 2012, 10:58:46 AM2/12/12
to
On Feb 11, 9:04 pm, Barry OGrady <athe...@hotmail.com.au> wrote:
> On Sat, 11 Feb 2012 22:33:52 -0600, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us>
> wrote:
>
> >On Sat, 11 Feb 2012 14:11:22 -0800 (PST), Gladys Swager
> ><gswa...@gmail.com> wrote in alt.talk.creationism:
> On Sat, 11 Feb 2012 22:33:52 -0600, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us>
> wrote:
>
> >On Sat, 11 Feb 2012 14:11:22 -0800 (PST), Gladys Swager
> >>And scientists and lawyers just don't work on evidence (singular)
> >>they use many evidences (plural)
>
> >Learn English.
>
> >Learn science.
>
> >I'm tired of your religious lies.
>
> Gladys doesn't lie. She regurgitates lies.
>
> >>Gladys Swager
>
> =-=-=-=-==-=-=-=
> God is a spirit. 0% proof!
And has never evidenced any attempt at actually _thinking_ about what
> >>they use many evidences (plural)
>
> >Learn English.
>
> >Learn science.
>
> >I'm tired of your religious lies.
>
> Gladys doesn't lie. She regurgitates lies.
>
> >>Gladys Swager
>
> =-=-=-=-==-=-=-=
> God is a spirit. 0% proof!
she spews.
Harry K
Gladys Swager
Feb 12, 2012, 4:04:40 PM2/12/12
to
On Feb 13, 2:58 am, harry k wrote:
> On Feb 11, 9:04 pm, Barry OGrady wrote:
> > On Sat, 11 Feb 2012 , Free Lunch wrote:
system
and according to my daily needs.
I do work with a dictionary when that is required.
> > >I'm tired of your religious lies.
>
There are lies, known untruths.
But I can see there is a new definition for 'lies'
They are differences of opinion. And if I do not agree with you
then you say that I have spoken/written a lie.
That requires further clarification through added information.
> > Gladys doesn't lie. She regurgitates lies.
>
That is not so, Barry. Evidently you believe that anyone who gives
different information to what you give is a lier.
You believe that you always give the truth.
But rarely do you support your statements with evidence.
And it would seem to me that you are not interested in investigating
the truth as understood by another.
Gladys Swager
> On Feb 11, 9:04 pm, Barry OGrady wrote:
> > On Sat, 11 Feb 2012 , Free Lunch wrote:
> > >On Sat, 11 Feb 2012, Gladys Swager wrote in alt.talk.creationism:
> > >>And scientists and lawyers just don't work on evidence (singular)
> > >>they use many evidences (plural)
>
> > >Learn English. Learn science.
>
I have learnt and taught both to certain levels within our Edcuational
> > >>And scientists and lawyers just don't work on evidence (singular)
> > >>they use many evidences (plural)
>
> > >Learn English. Learn science.
>
system
and according to my daily needs.
I do work with a dictionary when that is required.
> > >I'm tired of your religious lies.
>
But I can see there is a new definition for 'lies'
They are differences of opinion. And if I do not agree with you
then you say that I have spoken/written a lie.
That requires further clarification through added information.
> > Gladys doesn't lie. She regurgitates lies.
>
different information to what you give is a lier.
You believe that you always give the truth.
But rarely do you support your statements with evidence.
And it would seem to me that you are not interested in investigating
the truth as understood by another.
Gladys Swager
Free Lunch
Feb 12, 2012, 6:10:13 PM2/12/12
to
On Sun, 12 Feb 2012 13:04:40 -0800 (PST), Gladys Swager
<gsw...@gmail.com> wrote in alt.talk.creationism:
>On Feb 13, 2:58 am, harry k wrote:
>> On Feb 11, 9:04 pm, Barry OGrady wrote:
>> > On Sat, 11 Feb 2012 , Free Lunch wrote:
>> > >On Sat, 11 Feb 2012, Gladys Swager wrote in alt.talk.creationism:
>
>> > >>And scientists and lawyers just don't work on evidence (singular)
>> > >>they use many evidences (plural)
>>
>> > >Learn English. Learn science.
>>
>I have learnt and taught both to certain levels within our Edcuational
>system and according to my daily needs.
>I do work with a dictionary when that is required.
Evidences is almost exclusively used by religious folks who are talking
about their fake evidence.
>> > >I'm tired of your religious lies.
>>
>There are lies, known untruths.
That is exactly what I am speaking about. Things that you repeat that
are known to be false.
>But I can see there is a new definition for 'lies'
>They are differences of opinion.
No, they are not differences of opinion. You are making false claims
about facts.
>And if I do not agree with you
>then you say that I have spoken/written a lie.
I can actually tell the difference between disagreement on opinion and
misleading statements about facts. You are making misleading statements
about facts to justify your opinions.
>That requires further clarification through added information.
Yet you never offer us any information to defend your opinions.
>> > Gladys doesn't lie. She regurgitates lies.
>>
>That is not so, Barry. Evidently you believe that anyone who gives
>different information to what you give is a lier.
You are not entitled to invent your own "facts". Live with reality.
>You believe that you always give the truth.
>But rarely do you support your statements with evidence.
Far more often than you do.
>And it would seem to me that you are not interested in investigating
>the truth as understood by another.
You preach false doctrines and tell lies to defend them.
>Gladys Swager
<gsw...@gmail.com> wrote in alt.talk.creationism:
>On Feb 13, 2:58 am, harry k wrote:
>> On Feb 11, 9:04 pm, Barry OGrady wrote:
>> > On Sat, 11 Feb 2012 , Free Lunch wrote:
>> > >On Sat, 11 Feb 2012, Gladys Swager wrote in alt.talk.creationism:
>
>> > >>And scientists and lawyers just don't work on evidence (singular)
>> > >>they use many evidences (plural)
>>
>> > >Learn English. Learn science.
>>
>I have learnt and taught both to certain levels within our Edcuational
>system and according to my daily needs.
>I do work with a dictionary when that is required.
about their fake evidence.
>> > >I'm tired of your religious lies.
>>
>There are lies, known untruths.
are known to be false.
>But I can see there is a new definition for 'lies'
>They are differences of opinion.
about facts.
>And if I do not agree with you
>then you say that I have spoken/written a lie.
misleading statements about facts. You are making misleading statements
about facts to justify your opinions.
>That requires further clarification through added information.
>> > Gladys doesn't lie. She regurgitates lies.
>>
>That is not so, Barry. Evidently you believe that anyone who gives
>different information to what you give is a lier.
>You believe that you always give the truth.
>But rarely do you support your statements with evidence.
>And it would seem to me that you are not interested in investigating
>the truth as understood by another.
>Gladys Swager
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