The moral argument against atheism.
David Canzi
>If God really isn't there or in existence, I would be the first to
>queue up, to cheat, lie, kill, rape and plunder.
Essentially the same thing has been said by other proselytizers
before him.
The effects a belief has on behaviour do not depend on whether or
not the belief is true. If a man can fly, and believes he can fly,
he will confidently jump off a building. If he can't fly, but
believes he can fly, he will still confidently jump off a building.
It's not the existence of God that stops Frankie from going on
a criminal rampage. It's his belief in the existence of God.
Frankie's belief in God would restrain him whether or not God
existed. Therefore, Frankie's law-abiding behaviour is not
evidence that God exists.
--
David Canzi
ilbe...@gmail.com
> Frankie, the latest Christian proselytizer in alt.atheism, wrote:
>
> >If God really isn't there or in existence, I would be the first to
> >queue up, to cheat, lie, kill, rape and plunder.
>
> Essentially the same thing has been said by other proselytizers
> before him.
>
> The effects a belief has on behaviour do not depend on whether or
> not the belief is true. If a man can fly, and believes he can fly,
> he will confidently jump off a building. If he can't fly, but
> believes he can fly, he will still confidently jump off a building.
>
> a criminal rampage. It's his belief in the existence of God.
> Frankie's belief in God would restrain him whether or not God
> existed. Therefore, Frankie's law-abiding behaviour is not
> evidence that God exists.
>
> David Canzi
A personal Theistic Creator is the only thing that truly makes sense
for our highly tweaked cosmos to enable life , moral oughtness , and
purpose and meaning. The thing that atheists cant explain is why
they want to have the freedom of relative moral values yet demand and
EXPECT OTHERS to treat them according to absolute moral values such as
TOTAL honesty, fairness, integrity , and truthfulness...all the time
and in EVERY situation. Nor can an atheist explain how materials
like gasses, dirt , chemicals, planets allegedly left over from a
'big bang' can produce such NON-material things such as personality ,
moral oughtness, or abstract thought . Have you got a cogent
explanation that makes atheism a sound and rationale explanation for
these issues ? Id appreciate hearing one . Thanks.
Tim Miller
>
> A personal Theistic Creator is the only thing that truly makes sense
> for our highly tweaked cosmos to enable life , moral oughtness , and
> purpose and meaning. The thing that atheists cant explain is why
> they want to have the freedom of relative moral values yet demand and
> EXPECT OTHERS to treat them according to absolute moral values such as
> TOTAL honesty, fairness, integrity , and truthfulness...all the time
> and in EVERY situation. Nor can an atheist explain how materials
> like gasses, dirt , chemicals, planets allegedly left over from a
> 'big bang' can produce such NON-material things such as personality ,
> moral oughtness, or abstract thought . Have you got a cogent
> explanation that makes atheism a sound and rationale explanation for
> these issues ? Id appreciate hearing one . Thanks.
Again? Why? So you can CONTINUE to ignore it?
LOL!
JTEM
dmca...@remulak.uwaterloo.ca (David Canzi) wrote:
> Frankie wrote:
>
> > If God really isn't there or in existence, I
> > would be the first to queue up, to cheat,
> > lie, kill, rape and plunder.
>
> Essentially the same thing has been said by other
> proselytizers before him.
It's a great argument AGAINST religion.
Think about. Without religion, chances are people like
this "Christian" would have been taught to respect
life and the rights of others. That, because this is all
there is, the worst thing you could ever do is diminish
the experience for anyone, just as the worst thing
anyone can do to you is to knowingly diminish your
experience in life.
Put another way...
Religion externalizes "Morality." All morality comes
from God, or, more accurately, how the religious
authority tells you God defines morality. So if God
says "Kill your son" then killing your son is the
only moral thing to do, and if God says (Slaughter
all the males and the women in that city, but keep
the virgins as your play things" then that is the
only moral thing to do.
Morality is external. Other people dictate it for you.
Convince these psychos that there's no God and you've
removed that external influence.
JTEM
"IlBeBa...@gmail.com" <ilbeba...@gmail.com> wrote:
> A personal Theistic Creator is the only thing
> that truly makes sense for our highly tweaked
> cosmos to enable life ,
Not at all. Besides the obvious -- why does the
universe require a creator but not this God --
there are religions out there which have no
"Creator God" concept.
http://www.parami.org/buddhistanswers/what_about_god.htm
http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/hinduism/wocreator.htm
--
Check out my friend's lame ass show:
Tim Miller
> dmca...@remulak.uwaterloo.ca (David Canzi) wrote:
>
>> Frankie wrote:
>>
>>> If God really isn't there or in existence, I
>>> would be the first to queue up, to cheat,
>>> lie, kill, rape and plunder.
>> Essentially the same thing has been said by other
>> proselytizers before him.
>
> It's a great argument AGAINST religion.
>
Oh, I don't know... if the threat of "eternal punishment" keeps
the weak and stupid from "killing, rape and plunder", it
probably has SOME value. As long as the REST of us can keep
it out of our lives, no harm, no foul. And, so far, that's
been the case here in the US. The occasional "creation science"
attacks on education are more "amusing" than "threatening".
Free Lunch
<ilbe...@gmail.com> wrote in alt.talk.creationism:
>On Nov 22, 5:07�pm, dmca...@remulak.uwaterloo.ca (David Canzi) wrote:
>> Frankie, the latest Christian proselytizer in alt.atheism, wrote:
>>
>> >If God really isn't there or in existence, I would be the first to
>> >queue up, to cheat, lie, kill, rape and plunder.
>>
>> Essentially the same thing has been said by other proselytizers
>> before him.
>>
>> The effects a belief has on behaviour do not depend on whether or
>> not the belief is true. �If a man can fly, and believes he can fly,
>> he will confidently jump off a building. �If he can't fly, but
>> believes he can fly, he will still confidently jump off a building.
>>
>> It's not the existence of God that stops Frankie from going ont
>> a criminal rampage. �It's his belief in the existence of God.
>> Frankie's belief in God would restrain him whether or not God
>> existed. �Therefore, Frankie's law-abiding behaviour is not
>> evidence that God exists.
>>
>>ru --
>> David Canzi
>
>A personal Theistic Creator is the only thing that truly makes sense
Not really. That's just another unjustified assertion that you have made
based on your misunderstanding of physics and religious blinders.
>for our highly tweaked cosmos to enable life , moral oughtness , and
>purpose and meaning. The thing that atheists cant explain is why
>they want to have the freedom of relative moral values yet demand and
There's clear evidence from history, even within the Old Testament, that
ethics (morality) is determined by culture and changes over time.
>EXPECT OTHERS to treat them according to absolute moral values such as
>TOTAL honesty, fairness, integrity , and truthfulness...all the time
>and in EVERY situation. Nor can an atheist explain how materials
>like gasses, dirt , chemicals, planets allegedly left over from a
>'big bang' can produce such NON-material things such as personality ,
>moral oughtness, or abstract thought . Have you got a cogent
>explanation that makes atheism a sound and rationale explanation for
>these issues ? Id appreciate hearing one . Thanks.
So, why do you lie to us if you claim that truthfulness is part of your
moral code?
JTEM
Tim Miller <replytonewsgr...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> Oh, I don't know... if the threat of "eternal
> punishment" keeps the weak and stupid from
> "killing, rape and plunder", it probably has
> SOME value.
Don't get me wrong, decent parentage and a healthy
social environment have far, Far, *Far* more
value than "Be good and we give you a divine cookie,
be bad and we hit you with the fiery stick."
Amongst other reasons, once the retard screws up
you've effectively handed them a license to kill.
"I did [INSERT SIN HERE]. I'm going to Hell. Oh, well,
might as well do anything I want, no matter how much
it hurts anyone."
> As long as the REST of us can keep it out of our
> lives, no harm, no foul. And, so far, that's been
> the case here in the US. The occasional "creation
> science" attacks on education are more "amusing"
> than "threatening".
They've wasted countless millions of dollars, and
have torn communities apart.
Sure, in the grand scale of things they don't amount
to much, but what about all the gay men & lesbians
over the years who were denied, say, the healthcare
benefits that their "Spouse" earned for them the
exact same way straight couples "Earn" such benefits
for their spouses?
Or what about gay men and lesbians who died without
the pensions they earned going to their "Spouses"
the way the spouses of their straight co-workers could
inherit their pensions?
People really have suffered, and suffered a great
deal, because of the 100% religious bigotry. People
have been thrown out of their homes, locked out of
businesses and even barred from the funerals of their
partners because of poor planning and anti-marriage
laws which say that they aren't *Really* married,
and have no rights after "hubby" unexpectedly dropped
dead.
jemcd
I get your point, but if they are that easily duped and controlled
then surely they can be contained by non-mythical threats. I think
they are more influenced by earthly punishments anyway.
JTEM
jemcd wrote:
> I get your point, but if they are that
> easily duped and controlled then surely
> they can be contained by non-mythical
> threats. I think they are more influenced
> by earthly punishments anyway.
I have often argued that SOCIAL pressures
are the greatest pressures of all.
Take racial lynchings, for example. Nobody
involved believed for one second that what
they were doing was legal or condoned by
the bible. Conversely, the bible makes heroes
out of Lots' daughters for committing incense,
while incense is a SOCIAL taboo well out of
proportion of any "sins."
For a real-world example, I can recall, way
back when, Buford Furrow going on a rampage,
murdering a mailman and then shooting up a
Jewish community center, hitting a five y.o.
boy, twice. At the time, it was widely
reported that he (Furrow) was actively seeking
to not only redeem himself within the "Aryan
Nation" community, but turn himself into an
admired hero.
He did it for purely SOCIAL reasons.
Christopher A. Lee
(David Canzi) wrote:
>Frankie, the latest Christian proselytizer in alt.atheism, wrote:
>
>>If God really isn't there or in existence, I would be the first to
>>queue up, to cheat, lie, kill, rape and plunder.
>
>Essentially the same thing has been said by other proselytizers
>before him.
They're too stupid to realise what it tells us about themselves.
>The effects a belief has on behaviour do not depend on whether or
>not the belief is true. If a man can fly, and believes he can fly,
>he will confidently jump off a building. If he can't fly, but
>believes he can fly, he will still confidently jump off a building.
>
>It's not the existence of God that stops Frankie from going on
>a criminal rampage. It's his belief in the existence of God.
>Frankie's belief in God would restrain him whether or not God
>existed. Therefore, Frankie's law-abiding behaviour is not
>evidence that God exists.
If that is all that stops him, I don't want him within a hundred
miles of my loved ones when he grows out of what atheists know is an
easily lost belief.
I also want to know which atheists kill, lie, cheat, rape and plunder.
Tim Miller
> On Sun, 22 Nov 2009 18:40:57 -0500, Tim Miller
> <replyton...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> JTEM wrote:
>>> dmca...@remulak.uwaterloo.ca (David Canzi) wrote:
>>>
>>>> Frankie wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> If God really isn't there or in existence, I
>>>>> would be the first to queue up, to cheat,
>>>>> lie, kill, rape and plunder.
>>>> Essentially the same thing has been said by other
>>>> proselytizers before him.
>>> It's a great argument AGAINST religion.
>>>
>> Oh, I don't know... if the threat of "eternal punishment" keeps
>> the weak and stupid from "killing, rape and plunder", it
>> probably has SOME value. As long as the REST of us can keep
>> it out of our lives, no harm, no foul. And, so far, that's
>> been the case here in the US. The occasional "creation science"
>> attacks on education are more "amusing" than "threatening".
>
> I get your point, but if they are that easily duped and controlled
That's where all the evidence points.
Tim Miller
> jemcd wrote:
>
>> I get your point, but if they are that
>> easily duped and controlled then surely
>> they can be contained by non-mythical
>> threats. I think they are more influenced
>> by earthly punishments anyway.
>
> I have often argued that SOCIAL pressures
> are the greatest pressures of all.
>
> Take racial lynchings, for example. Nobody
> involved believed for one second that what
> they were doing was legal or condoned by
> the bible.
Oops.
Thurisaz, Germanic barbarian
> It's not the existence of God that stops Frankie from going on
> a criminal rampage. ï¿œIt's his belief in the existence of God.
> Frankie's belief in God would restrain him whether or not God
> existed. ï¿œTherefore, Frankie's law-abiding behaviour is not
> evidence that God exists.
Let alone that the morontheist admitted by its statement that it has NO
moralls of its own. What will happen if suddenly it gets the conviction (by
one of its cult fï¿œhrers telling it that, no doubt), that for example it is
NOT wrong to kill (according to da wholly babble)? I trust we call imagine
what the answer will be...
--
"To his friend a man a friend shall prove, and gifts with gifts requite;
But men shall mocking with mockery answer, and fraud with falsehood meet."
(The Poetic Edda)
Must have been written with fundies in mind...
My personal judgment of monotheism:
http://www.carcosa.de/nojebus
Mitchell Holman
4672-b52e-6...@e7g2000vbi.googlegroups.com:
> Nor can an atheist explain how materials
> like gasses, dirt , chemicals, planets allegedly left over from a
> 'big bang' can produce such NON-material things such as personality ,
> moral oughtness, or abstract thought
So we have God to thanks for the "moral oughtnes"
and abstract thought responsible for suicide bombings
and witch burnings and beheading "infidels"?
Wakalukong
-------
As there's no god, it's no surprise that Frankie lies all the time (he
said he would).
Unlike Frankie, an upright atheist doesn't cheat, lie, kill, rape and
blunder even though there's no god.
Wakalukong
Wakalukong
> On Nov 22, 5:07 pm, dmca...@remulak.uwaterloo.ca (David Canzi) wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Frankie, the latest Christian proselytizer in alt.atheism, wrote:
>
> > >If God really isn't there or in existence, I would be the first to
> > >queue up, to cheat, lie, kill, rape and plunder.
>
> > Essentially the same thing has been said by other proselytizers
> > before him.
>
> > The effects a belief has on behaviour do not depend on whether or
> > not the belief is true. If a man can fly, and believes he can fly,
> > he will confidently jump off a building. If he can't fly, but
> > believes he can fly, he will still confidently jump off a building.
>
> > It's not the existence of God that stops Frankie from going ont
> > a criminal rampage. It's his belief in the existence of God.
> > Frankie's belief in God would restrain him whether or not God
> > existed. Therefore, Frankie's law-abiding behaviour is not
> > evidence that God exists.
>
> >ru --
> > David Canzi
>
> A personal Theistic Creator is the only thing that truly makes sense
---------
You mean a personal Christian creator?
Wakalukong
jrh
@news.eternal-september.org:
> IlBe...@gmail.com wrote:
Atheism doesn't explain, it is the denial of explanation!
Answering such questions is beyond Atheists pay grade.
Forming life from left over gases, dirt and chemicals is
probably not as hard as designing materials with
the necessary properties for life to exist.
Billions of hours of study by some of the smartest people
on the Planet and we still don't know for sure what the
properties of matter are, much let alone their cause!
Most scientific theories only approximate reality, the
underlying mechanisms are unknown. For example Type I
superconductor problems requires that many variables be
dropped in order for them to be solved
and the results are only close to being right.
Reality comes up with the exact solution in femtoseconds
for Boson with 10^27 or more electrons, quadrillions
of times per second in a Universe billions of light years across.
All by chance according to Atheists and
that is just one of trillions of different
kinds of reactions that are taking place at the same time!
jrh
hypa...@comcast.net
> jemcd wrote:
> > I get your point, but if they are that
> > easily duped and controlled then surely
> > they can be contained by non-mythical
> > threats. I think they are more influenced
> > by earthly punishments anyway.
>
> I have often argued that SOCIAL pressures
> are the greatest pressures of all.
>
> Take racial lynchings, for example. Nobody
> involved believed for one second that what
> they were doing was legal or condoned by
> the bible. Conversely, the bible makes heroes
> out of Lots' daughters for committing incense,
> while incense is a SOCIAL taboo well out of
> proportion of any "sins."
Incest!
Frankie Lee
Me: I was appalled by lack of intellect from my Nay-sayers friend.
You:The effects a belief has on behaviour do not depend on whether or
not the belief is true.
Me:I agree with you on that.I know that.
You: If he can't fly, but
believes he can fly, he will still confidently jump off a building.
Me: Your analogy is out of sync to mine.
You:Therefore, Frankie's law-abiding behaviour is not
evidence that God exists.
Me:A law-abiding behavior person is evidence of the presence of Laws.
The very presence of Laws in any country is to deter criminals.We all
understand very well,except the Atheist camp,who appear to have very
little grasp on moral laws.
I wrote,"What is human nature?",and I suppose clear minded readers
would have a simple grasp of human fallen nature condition since the
time of Adam.Apostle Paul wrote,"Oh,what a wretched man I am,the good
that I want to do and yet I do not but I saw a law in my nature trying
to do evil".
Human depravity is a fact and is known by all educated minds.Otherwise
let us remove Laws from countries,and let's see anarchism had her hay
days.Is such knowledge too deep fro you guys?
The moral law-giver is trace to God and it is a fact where no debating
opponents or any scholars from atheism would dare to dispute.
Some of you kept insisting that my reasons to restraint to do
evil,shows I am morally handicap.In other words,you are stating that
human are not morally handicap,a view in contrast with the truths,and
by empirical observation since the dawn of time.
Do your math.Why would I want to be good?If death is the all,and end
all,why should I be restraint from my desires?How many evil thoughts
run through our minds each day?Are you sure you have a morally clean
nature to start with?
The very reasons you guy kept arguing from the notion that human
nature is so perfect,capable of moral reasoning,nail your own fallacy
beliefs in Atheism.
Frankie Lee
**Convince these psychos that there's no God and you've
removed that external influence.
Frankie: You have hit the nail.In the first place,there is a God.
PolPot and Mao were convince that there is no God.If a person is
misled into the belief that there is no God,he will do beastly deeds.
Fornication and Lies are common place.Murders and hate.If you can rob
and steal and you are sure you can get away,and live happily here
without getting caught,would you not do it?
It seems to me you understand very little about Temptation.
Robibnikoff
"Frankie Lee" <leea...@yahoo.com> pissed & moaned....
--
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo & Belly Dancer Supreme
BAAWA Knight
#1557
Robibnikoff
"Frankie Lee" <leea...@yahoo.com> wrote
Frankie: You have hit the nail.In the first place,there is a God.
Prove it.
Devils Advocaat
So you believe that atheists are immoral do you, then explain why in
terms of prison populations the majority of inmates are Christians.
Atheism doesn't try to explain such matters as you have listed here,
such matters are the realm of science.
Now if you reckon personality, moral oughtness, and abstract thought
are non-material, you should be able to explain how physical damage to
the brain can result in the degradation, or complete loss of such
qualities.
The Cynic
Hello Crankie Lee, if you associate Pol Pot's and Mao's nefarious
activities and blame atheism as the driving force for such
undesirable decisions, then I, using your logic and reasoning,
conclude that Christianity encourages crime, prostitution, drug taking
and murders because, to name a few, Ronnie Biggs was convicted with
robbery, Elizabeth Louise Petersen was charged with prostitution, and
Miguel Angel Caro-Quintero was accused being a drug war lord. Back
home we have Joachim Kang and Adrian Lim, among others. These are all
Christians. Aren't you aware that the Vatican prison houses mainly
Christians.
So Christianity is a bad, bad religion. Hee hee hee
JTEM
"hypati...@comcast.net" <hypati...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Incest!
~and Peppermints, meaningless nouns~
Yeah, I love that song too...
Ken
this shit:
> A personal Theistic Creator is the only thing that truly makes sense
You have NEVER made any sense at all!!!
Quote the Raven1: "Seriously, I've been on Usenet for 13 years, and
you have to be the dumbest, most ignorant person I've run across in
that time.
This IDIOT dave recently uncovered an astondishing new theory
on how the Sum is actually powered by Nitrogen "exploding" into
Helium,
thus overturning years of thermonuclear research and many well
established laws of physics
For your entertainment in Dimwit Dumbfuck's own words:
From: DaveinIllinois @webtv.net (one of dave's many names)
Subject: Re: Evolution in Action
View: Complete Thread (3 articles)
Original FormatNewsgroups: alt.dating.uk.south-east
Date: 2004-08-17 05:45:01 PST
ha ha....but : What made the sun give off just the right amount of
light
and heat for earth to survive being 93 million miles away exploding
600,000,000 tons of nitrogen into helium ' per second ' , no less ??
Syd M.
> On Nov 22, 5:07 pm, dmca...@remulak.uwaterloo.ca (David Canzi) wrote:
>
>
>
>
> > >If God really isn't there or in existence, I would be the first to
> > >queue up, to cheat, lie, kill, rape and plunder.
>
> > Essentially the same thing has been said by other proselytizers
> > before him.
>
> > not the belief is true. If a man can fly, and believes he can fly,
> > he will confidently jump off a building. If he can't fly, but
> > believes he can fly, he will still confidently jump off a building.
>
> > It's not the existence of God that stops Frankie from going ont
> > a criminal rampage. It's his belief in the existence of God.
> > Frankie's belief in God would restrain him whether or not God
> > existed. Therefore, Frankie's law-abiding behaviour is not
> > evidence that God exists.
>
> >ru --
> > David Canzi
>
Started with a lie.
No reason to read further.
PDW
hypa...@comcast.net
You wrote incense when you meant incest.
I like the song, too.