Living in DENIAL of the FACTS About **ILLEGAL** Aliens is NOT Something that *SENSIBLE* People would do.
(¯`·.¸Craig Chilton¸.·´¯) -- Rx for RRR Cult's Loathsome Agendas: Extinction!
Living in DENIAL of the FACTS About **ILLEGAL** Aliens
is NOT Something that *SENSIBLE* People would do.
When I wrote that subject header, I'd considered the possibility
of using the word, "intelligent," rather than "sensible." But thought
better of it because I make a strict point of NEVER lying in my posts,
and that includes subject headers, because that enables my detract-
ors to automatically make lying fools of themselves when they claim
that I do.
Unfortunately, many people who have decent IQs fall prey to
whatever DELUSIONS compel them to think being bigoted toward
other people's or groups is somehow a good thing. David Duke, a
ranking member of the KKK, probably was no dummy, IQ-wise, but
he certainly had to be delusional to think being in the KKK had ANY
merit, whatsoever.
By the same token, some people in here who have SEEMED in
the past to have working brains, have proven to us all, over and
over and over and OVER again that they have TOTAL disregard
for the 285 million Americans who are being victimized by the intru-
sion of more than 14 million ILLEGAL-alien scofflaws.
ESPECIALLY victimized by those criminal interlopers are the
millions of LEGAL immigrants who worked HARD to EARN their
residency and citizenship statuses. Every single ILLEGAL alien
is figuratively giving ALL of those people who followed the rules
and OBEYED the law a hard slap in the face! Which is unconscion-
able. ALMOST as unconscionable as our criminal justice system
is for its FAILURE to charge and convict the EMPLOYERS of those
illegal aliens. That IS against the law already, even though I've
proposed that Congress pass a far more EFFECTIVE and still
humane law for dealing with that.
ILLEGAL aliens ARE lawbreakers, no matter HOW often some
in these Usenet newsgroups try to LYINGLY whine otherwise,
SNEAKING across the border as an UNDOCUMENTED alien *is* a
federal misdemeanor, and anyone who has been deported and
then RE-enters the country that way is committing a FELONY.
There is NO EXCUSE for such lawbreaking.
And possibly the very BEST way to handle this problem in
fairness to ALL concerned (including the LEGAL immigrants. and
the rest of the USA's 285 million people who are here legally, is
to pass a STRICT law, and then ENFORCE it to the letter, to
prohibit either the hiring or retention of ILLEGAL aliens by any
employer in the USA.
A law that would impose a MANDATORY fine of at least
$25,000/alien hired or retained, AND a MINIMUM of one year
of imprisonment, to all responsible for that. This would make
NO employment possible to any ILLEGAL alien, starting at the
time the enforcement of the law became effective.
And to allow a period of from, say, 90 or 180 days between
the law's passage and its enforcement to allow the illegal aliens
to keep working long enough to earn the money they need to
get back home again comfortably.
All of this is totally SENSIBLE. None of them ever belonged
in thsi country in the first place. Because there is a LEGAL way
to immigrate, and they chose NOT to do it. So they can go back
home again. And then, if they want to, they can go to the back
of the line of those people who are LEGALLY and properly seeking
to emigrate to the USA, and do it RIGHT.
Know something? NO one has ever YET been able to present
me with so much as even ONE single FACT that can refute any
of the facts I've presented. This would *work*, and it would
work very WELL. We don't NEED a multi-bullion-dollar wall.
(And the wall probably wouldn't work work a darn, anyway, being
2,000 miles or so long, unless we were to spend MORE billions
on an ongoing basis, for enforcement, and putting lives at risk.
Per THIS plan, NO lives would be put at risk, NO money would
need to be wasted on a wall, NO extra officers would need to
be hired, and NO illegal aliens (except those who had committed
other criminal acts) would be charged, prosecuted, or deported.
Finally, there IS a bill currently in Congress that has more than
107 Congresspersons already endorsing it that would legally
deny citizenship to children born in the USA to ILLEGAL aliens.
It's H.R. 1940. If passed, would it be Constitutional? Maybe, and
maybe not. But that's what the appellate courts are for. And
the U.S. Supreme Court, in particular, has shown great creativity
in the past, quite legally (per Marbury vs. Madison - 1804) to
subject statutory laws to judicial review and determine their
constitutionality, in keping with our Consitution's being a LIVING
document and not a DEAD one. That same creativity enabled
that court to EMANCIPATE all girls and women in the USA in the
greatest single act of emancipation since Lincoln freed the slaves.
("Roe vs. Wade," in 1973.) So I have confidence that they can
evaluate ANY of these laws pertaining to ILLEGAL immigration
quite fairly.
Here, in a nutshell, are the basic facts that supprt what
I propose:
(1) ILLEGAL aliens did not belong here in the FIRST place.
(2) Federal laws prohibit undocumented entry into the USA.
(3) Federal laws STRICTLY prohibit WORKING in the USA without
proper and legal documentation (such as a Green Card.)
(4) Every ILLEGAL alien is a CRIMINAL by default, for entering
illegally, and even MORE of one if WORKING here.
(5) Throughout our history, tens of millions of people have
worked HARD to EARN residency and citizenship here.
(a) CRIMINALS should NEVER be *rewarded* for being
criminals.
(b) According LEGAL status to ILLEGAL, criminal aliens
without their INSTEAD applying for it through proper
channels and EARNING it would be a massive **insult**
to the millions who did it the RIGHT and LEGAL way.
Suggest my proposed law, below, to your Congressperson and
both Senators, and Congress to PASS H.R. 1940.
More information:
http://apifar.blogspot.com/2008/01/almost-all-of-usas-14-million-illegal.html
If the URL doesn't work, combine its components,
below, in your browser:
http://
apifar.blogspot.com/
2008/01/almost-all-of-usas-14-million-illegal.html
-- Craig Chilton
xana...@mchsi.com -- To E-Mail me.
http://www.roadrat.com -- Learn how to get PAID to TRAVEL.
http://apifar.blogspot.com -- Great TACTICS to Fight Bigotry.
http://pro-christian.blogspot.com -- Christianity *vs.* Bigotry.
Emerson Wainwright
>
> If the URL doesn't work, combine its components,
> below, in your browser:
>
> http://
> apifar.blogspot.com/
> 2008/01/almost-all-of-usas-14-million-illegal.html
>
> -- Craig Chilton
>
> http://pro-christian.blogspot.com-- Christianity *vs.* Bigotry.
And what do we do about outsourcing, where U.S. dollars are actually
going to other countries to be spent? And where are we going to find
Americans who are willing to work for minimum wage to clean toilets?
Even the uneducated ones won't do it.
(¯`·.¸Craig Chilton¸.·´¯) -- Rx for RRR Cult's Loathsome Agendas: Extinction!
>> http://apifar.blogspot.com/2008/01/almost-all-of-usas-14-million-illegal.html
>>
>> If the URL doesn't work, combine its components,
>> below, in your browser:
>>
>> http://
>> apifar.blogspot.com/
>> 2008/01/almost-all-of-usas-14-million-illegal.html
> And what do we do about outsourcing, where U.S. dollars are
> actually going to other countries to be spent?
You're going to have to tell me just how that isn't apples-and-
oranges to THIS dicussion.
> And where are we going to find Americans who are willing to
> work for minimum wage to clean toilets? Even the uneducated
> ones won't do it.
I remember doing some MENIAL jobs when I was a mid-teenager.
THAT'S where the workforce for those jobs will come from. Just
as was the case BEFORE there were significant nimbers of illegal
aliens.
-- Craig Chilton
xana...@mchsi.com -- To E-Mail me.
http://www.roadrat.com -- Learn how to get PAID to TRAVEL.
juanjo
> is NOT Something that *SENSIBLE* People would do.
First this topic is way off topic for the news groups it is posted
in. That said the original post makes some boneheaded comments that
cry out to be addressed.
1. Entering the country without inspection or overstaying a visa is
not a crime. The government did that for a very specific reason. If
it were a crime then every person picked up by ICE would be entitled
to an attorney and full hearing before an Article 3 Judge, i.e., the
US District Court, before being deported. Instead there is an
"immigration court" which determines that the person entered without
authorization or overstayed a visa and that "immigration court" orders
the person to be deported. Part of that order requires that they
cannot return within a certain amount of time without having first
obtained the permission of the Attorney General. If they do so, then
they will have committed a crime, a felony. Immigration "judges" are
not article 3 judges, they were employees of the Justice Department
although they may have been switched to Homeland Security.
2. People who have entered without inspection or overstayed visas
typically are folks who would never qualify for an immigration visa.
The reason is simple, our system favors family reunions and certain
types of investors. So under the quotas established each year, all
available slots are taken up by relatives of legal US residents,
people willing to invest millions of dollars in the US economy and
certain limited slots for example in the high tech industry for
workers employed there. The simple truth is that if you do not have a
relative already in the US, your likelihood of getting a visa is very
slim unless you are some sort of computer whiz or major league
investor.
3. The US currently is running a shortage of available people for a
large number of the employment positions in our society including
lower paying menial tasks. As Boomers retire, this shortage of
available workers will only increase for at least the next 20 to 25
years. US citizens will not work in the fields picking tomatoes or
fruit or lettuce because they can get better paying jobs elsewhere.
They are unwilling to be landscape workers, dishwashers or janitors in
the numbers needed to fill available positions. They can get better
paid positions doing other types of work. Now the solution to this is
to either drastically increase the compensation and benefits for those
classes of employment with the vain hope of attracting more US citizen
to perform the work or use the current labor pool which will work for
the wages being paid. Of course we should realize that if the costs
of picking produce increase, that increase will be passed on to us.
The increase in fuel costs involved in processing and transporting
those products to market recently are just a small indicator of what
the increases would involve.
4. Contrary to public opinion and the claims of some, if one looks at
the total economic footprint of the "illegals" and o not at simply
certain selected portions of the economy, the Pew Trust has found that
illegals contribute billions of dollars into the economy. Social
Security relies on the funds deposited into the Trust of roughly one
third of its yearly funding. Billions more are collected nationwide
in Federal, State and local taxes, including sales taxes. 40% of the
small business in this country are run by immigrants including
"illegals" and those businesses employ millions of US citizens a well
as "illegals".
5. Advocates of deporting "illegals" ignore the economic and social
costs of deporting these people. They wish to make it so tough on the
illegals that they will be forced to leave but historically countries
that have tried this approach have eradicated some of the "illegal"
work force they have done so at a heavy price. Further they have not
eradicated all of the illegal work force which simply slips deeper
underground and continues to work, facing increased exploitation. WA
black market for labor appears and is used by less scrupulous people
to undercut law abiding businesses who then are faced with the choice
of going out of business or doing the same. Finally in enacting laws
and regulations to enforce this deportation policy, the "reformers"
have to further restrict the rights of legal residents and citizens.
A large number of US citizen retirees found this out in Arizona when
that state toughened its laws requiring proof of citizenship for most
government services and benefits, forcing retirees originally from out
of state to scramble to find documentation of their citizenship in one
of the accepted formats, a process which tool time and often meant a
denial of certain services or benefits to the parties while they
waited.
6. The US needs to have control over its borders but it needs to act
rationally in doing so. Switching to a fairer form of immigration is
one start on that process. A process by which those who are already
here are brought into the mainstream is another. Or we could do like
Uganda did in the late 1960's when it decided to deport all the South
Asians living there, using the army to force out those who were less
willing to leave. The country discovered that its economy shrunk by
almost 50%, unemployment skyrocketed and many good and services were
simply no longer available or the prices increase astronomically. The
country's exports went down the tubes and inflation increased with the
currency being severely impacted. My favorite part was that after
the deportation there was not a single locksmith in the entire country.
(�`�.�Craig Chilton�.���) -- Rx for RRR Cult's Loathsome Agendas: Extinction!
juanjo <jonp...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> "(�`�.�Craig Chilton�.���) -- Rx for RRR Cult's
> Loathsome Agendas: Extinction!" <xan...@mchsi.com> wrote:
>> � � � Living in DENIAL of the FACTS About **ILLEGAL** Aliens
>> � � � � � is NOT Something that *SENSIBLE* People would do.
[[[ NEW information for my original article. A May 3, 2006
Zogby Poll I just found. See all of its relevant tables at:
http://www.cis.org/articles/2006/2006poll.html ]]]
> First this topic is way off topic for the news groups it is posted
> in.
I intentionally picked these groups because they contain people
who are concerned about personal liberties and human rights.
> That said ...
> 1. Entering the country without inspection or overstaying a visa is
> not a crime. The government did that for a very specific reason. If
> it were a crime then every person picked up by ICE would be entitled
> to an attorney and full hearing before an Article 3 Judge, i.e., the
> US District Court, before being deported. Instead there is an
>"immigration court" which determines that the person entered without
> authorization or overstayed a visa and that "immigration court" orders
> the person to be deported. Part of that order requires that they
> cannot return within a certain amount of time without having first
> obtained the permission of the Attorney General. If they do so, then
> they will have committed a crime, a felony. Immigration "judges" are
> not article 3 judges, they were employees of the Justice Department
> although they may have been switched to Homeland Security.
I hate to puncture your balloon (But I AM glad that you are incorrect
in this instance) but this Federal Law hugely disagrees with you:
U.S. Code : Title 8 : Section 1325 -- U.S. Code as of: 01/03/05
Improper Entry by Alien
(a) Improper time or place; avoidance of examination or inspection;
misrepresentation and concealment of facts
Any alien who (1) enters or attempts to enter the United States
at any time or place other than as designated by immigration
officers, or (2) eludes examination or inspection by immigration
officers, or (3) attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United
States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the
willful concealment of a material fact, shall, for the first
commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18 or
imprisoned not more than 6 months, or both, and, for a subse-
quent commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18, or
imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.
(b) Improper time or place; civil penalties
Any alien who is apprehended while entering (or attempting to
enter) the United States at a time or place other than as
designated by immigration officers shall be subject to a civil
penalty of -
(1) at least $50 and not more than $250 for each such entry (or
attempted entry); or
(2) twice the amount specified in paragraph (1) in the case of
an alien who has been previously subject to a civil penalty under
this subsection.
Civil penalties under this subsection are in addition to, and not
in lieu of, any criminal or other civil penalties that may be
imposed.
(c) Marriage fraud
Any individual who knowingly enters into a marriage for the
purpose of evading any provision of the immigration laws shall be
imprisoned for not more than 5 years, or fined not more than
$250,000, or both.
(d) Immigration-related entrepreneurship fraud
Any individual who knowingly establishes a commercial enterprise
for the purpose of evading any provision of the immigration laws
shall be imprisoned for not more than 5 years, fined in accordance
with title 18, or both.
This followed by Section 1326: Reentry of Removed Aliens
... which provides for more serious penalties (felonious).
SO MUCH for solid LAW not already being in place. The law is
strict, and CANN AND SHOULD be strictly *enforced*. Justice
is depressingly LAX with this!
>2. People who have entered without inspection or overstayed visas
> typically are folks who would never qualify for an immigration visa.
> The reason is simple, our system favors family reunions and certain
> types of investors. So under the quotas established each year, all
> available slots are taken up by relatives of legal US residents,
> people willing to invest millions of dollars in the US economy and
> certain limited slots for example in the high tech industry for
> workers employed there. The simple truth is that if you do not have a
> a relative already in the US, your likelihood of getting a visa is very
> slim unless you are some sort of computer whiz or major league
> investor.
That's the breaks. BUT -- that could be corrected. Congress
needs to find a way to make the legal immigration process more
equitable, across-the-board.
>3. The US currently is running a shortage of available people for a
> large number of the employment positions in our society including
> lower paying menial tasks. As Boomers retire, this shortage of
> available workers will only increase for at least the next 20 to 25
> years. US citizens will not work in the fields picking tomatoes or
> fruit or lettuce because they can get better paying jobs elsewhere.
Whe I was in my mid-teens, working that way on upstate New York
truck farms WAS my employment. I survived just fine, and so can
the millions of mid-teens living in America today.
> They are unwilling to be landscape workers, dishwashers or janitors in
> the numbers needed to fill available positions. They can get better
> paid positions doing other types of work.
I've known janitors who have a surprising amount on the ball,
mentally. That said, over 5% of any given large population have
IQs of 70 and lower... the threshhold of mental limitations that
used to be called "retardation." These more menial jobs that require
little creative thinking or decision-making skills are ones to which
most of those folks could be amenable. And as they certainly were
BEFORE this huge influx of illegal aliens. If that number were as
small as 5% (and it may be as much as 8%), that would be 15
million people.
> Now the solution to this is to either drastically increase the compen-
> sation and benefits for those classes of employment with the vain
> hope of attracting more US citizen to perform the work or use the
> current labor pool which will work forthe wages being paid. Of course
> we should realize that if the costs of picking produce increase, that
> increase will be passed on to us. The increase in fuel costs involved
> in processing and transporting those products to market recently
> are just a small indicator of what the increases would involve.
The deepening recession now underway might just serendipitously
make that question moot, as unemployment rates increas.
> 4. Contrary to public opinion and the claims of some, if one looks at
> the total economic footprint of the "illegals" and o not at simply
> certain selected portions of the economy, the Pew Trust has found that
> illegals contribute billions of dollars into the economy. Social
> Security relies on the funds deposited into the Trust of roughly one
> third of its yearly funding. Billions more are collected nationwide
> in Federal, State and local taxes, including sales taxes. 40% of the
> small business in this country are run by immigrants including
> "illegals" and those businesses employ millions of US citizens a well
> as "illegals".
I can see how they might help with SALES tax revenue. But HOW
can they pay INCOME taxes without documentation. It would seem
to me that the illegal-alien pool would ALSO have to be the biggest
pool if income-tax evaders. And that would include payments to
Social Security. Paying Social Security to PHONY SS accounts would
have to be a DANDY way for both the illegals and their employers to
be caught and prosecuted.
>5. Advocates of deporting "illegals" ignore the economic and social
> costs of deporting these people.
With my plan, that's irrelevant. It makes NO provision for
deporting people just FOR being illegal aliens.
> They wish to make it so tough on the illegals that they will be forced
> to leave but historically countries that have tried this approach have
> eradicated some of the "illegal" work force they have done so at a
> heavy price.
Under my proposed law, NO one would be forced to leave except
for the fact that if they stayed beyond the grace period, there would
be NO work available for them.
> Further they have not eradicated all of the illegal work force which
> simply slips deeper underground and continues to work, facing
> increased exploitation...
Make prison sentences and heavy fines MANDATORY for all
employers of illegal aliens, and I can guarantee that work for illegal
aliens woud be as hard to come by as cherry bombs and M-80s. Have
you seen ANY of *those* in the last 30 years?
> ...WA black market for labor appears and is used by less scrupulous
> people to undercut law abiding businesses who then are faced with
> the choice of going out of business or doing the same.
NO employer would DARE hire or retain illegal aliens under the law
I propose. As in: ZERO!
> Finally in enacting laws and regulations to enforce this deportation
> policy, the "reformers" have to further restrict the rights of legal
> residents and citizens. A large number of US citizen retirees found
> this out in Arizona when that state toughened its laws requiring proof
> of citizenship for most
>government services and benefits, forcing retirees originally from out
>of state to scramble to find documentation of their citizenship in one
>of the accepted formats, a process which took time and often meant a
>denial of certain services or benefits to the parties while they
>waited.
If the law I propose were to be passed. ILLEGAL aliens would have
plenty of time to get things together and return home comfortably
(I suggest 90 to as much as 180 days between passage of the law and
the date enforcement of it begins), and LEGAL immigrants would thus
have PLENTY of time to get their documents together and ensure they
were totally bonafide.
> 6. The US needs to have control over its borders but it needs to act
> rationally in doing so. Switching to a fairer form of immigration is
> one start on that process.
THIS would DO that. If an ILLEGAL alien were to come in after
the law's enforcement began, he'd find himself unable to eat or pay
rent, and would have no choice but to return to his homeland.
NO wall necessary, either, for that reason -- saving the USA
countless BILLIONS of dollars.
> A process by which those who are already here are brought into
> the mainstream is another.
IOW -- **condone** their having criminally SNEAKED into the
country, and then REWARD them for it -- which would be a hard
slap in the face to the millions of LEGAL immigrants who worked hard
and legitimately to follow the rules and EARN their status? NO WAY
would I ever approve of that! And according to the Zogby Poll
cited at the top of this post, neither would MOST Americans approve
of that. That would be ABSURD... to put it kindly.
> Or we could do like Uganda did in the late 1960's when it decided
> to deport all the South Asians living there, using the army to force out
> those who were less willing to leave. The country discovered that
> its economy shrunk by almost 50%, unemployment skyrocketed and
> many good and services were simply no longer available or the prices
> increase astronomically. The country's exports went down the tubes
> and inflation increased with the currency being severely impacted.
> My favorite part was that after the deportation there was not a single
> locksmith in the entire country.
The USA bears very LITTLE comparison to Uganda, and skilled
legal Americans abound in all fields.
For more information on the law I propose::
Steve Hayes
and loot them.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Ray Fischer
>
> is NOT Something that *SENSIBLE* People would do.
Hateful comments would be any that encourage discrimination
and bigotry against any person or group on the basis of their race,
beliefs, orientation, handedness, ethnicity, eye color, or any other
TRIVIALITY that is no one else's business but that of each individual
person him/herself.
chilton in <e96474lofhje8u943...@4ax.com>
--
Ray Fischer
rfis...@sonic.net
Ray Fischer
> There is NO EXCUSE for such lawbreaking.
Then you must be executed for YOUR crimes, hypocrite.
--
Ray Fischer
rfis...@sonic.net
(¯`·.¸Craig Chilton¸.·´¯) -- Rx for RRR Cult's Loathsome Agendas: Extinction!
Ray Fischer -- Criminal-coddler <rfis...@sonic.net> wrote:
> (¯`·.¸Craig Chilton¸.·´¯) -- Help Make the USA Bigotry-FREE! wrote:
>> There is NO EXCUSE for such lawbreaking.
> Then you must be executed for YOUR crimes, hypocrite.
I have advocated NO executions. Not even any *prosecutions*
of ILLEGAL aliens. As my article below PROVES.
= = = = = = = = = = =
There is NO EXCUSE for such lawbreaking.
And possibly the very BEST way to handle this problem in
(¯`·.¸Craig Chilton¸.·´¯) -- Rx for RRR Cult's Loathsome Agendas: Extinction!
> (¯`·.¸Craig Chilton¸.·´¯) -- Rx for RRR Cult's Loathsome
> Agendas: Extinction! <xan...@mchsi.com> wrote:
>> Living in DENIAL of the FACTS About **ILLEGAL** Aliens
>> is NOT Something that *SENSIBLE* People would do.
> Hateful comments would be any that encourage discrimination
> and bigotry against any person or group on the basis of their race,
> beliefs, orientation, handedness, ethnicity, eye color, or any other
> TRIVIALITY that is no one else's business but that of each individual
> person him/herself.
> Chilton in <e96474lofhje8u943...@4ax.com>
[[[ Ray has clearly LOST it, folks. There is NOTHING in my
statement above that says CRIMINALTY should be
CONDONED. And the ILLEGAL aliens who *sneak* into
the USA become criminals the second they do it. ]]]
PER: U.S. Code : Title 8 : Section 1325 -- U.S. Code as of: 01/03/05
= = = = =
Improper Entry by Alien
= = = = =
HERE is what can be done about that ---
Living in DENIAL of the FACTS About **ILLEGAL** Aliens
is NOT Something that *SENSIBLE* People would do.
When I wrote that subject header, I'd considered the possibility
Ray Fischer
>On 08 Jul 2008 07:12:48 GMT, Ray Fischer <rfis...@sonic.net> wrote:
>> (¯`·.¸Craig Chilton¸.·´¯) -- Rx for RRR Cult's Loathsome
>> Agendas: Extinction! <xan...@mchsi.com> wrote:
>
>
>>> Living in DENIAL of the FACTS About **ILLEGAL** Aliens
>>> is NOT Something that *SENSIBLE* People would do.
>
>> Hateful comments would be any that encourage discrimination
>> and bigotry against any person or group on the basis of their race,
>> beliefs, orientation, handedness, ethnicity, eye color, or any other
>> TRIVIALITY that is no one else's business but that of each individual
>> person him/herself.
>
>> Chilton in <e96474lofhje8u943...@4ax.com>
>
> [[[ Ray has clearly LOST it, folks. There is NOTHING in my
That is coming from a self-described criminal and admitted liar.
--
Ray Fischer
rfis...@sonic.net
Ray Fischer
>Ray Fischer -- Criminal-coddler <rfis...@sonic.net> wrote:
>> (¯`·.¸Craig Chilton¸.·´¯) -- Help Make the USA Bigotry-FREE! wrote:
>
>
>>> There is NO EXCUSE for such lawbreaking.
>
>> Then you must be executed for YOUR crimes, hypocrite.
>
> I have advocated NO executions.
"There is NO EXCUSE for such lawbreaking."
--
Ray Fischer
rfis...@sonic.net
(¯`·.¸Craig Chilton¸.·´¯) -- Rx for RRR Cult's Loathsome Agendas: Extinction!
Ray Fischer <rfis...@sonic.net> wrote:
> (¯`·.¸Craig Chilton¸.·´¯) -- Rx for RRR Cult's Loathsome
> Agendas: Extinction! <xan...@mchsi.com> wrote:
>> Ray Fischer -- Criminal-coddler <rfis...@sonic.net> wrote:
>>> (¯`·.¸Craig Chilton¸.·´¯) -- Help Make the USA Bigotry-FREE! wrote:
[ ... ]
>>>> There is NO EXCUSE for such lawbreaking.
>>> Then you must be executed for YOUR crimes, hypocrite.
>> I have advocated NO executions.
> "There is NO EXCUSE for such lawbreaking."...
...as the ILLEGAL aliens that you so moronically CODDLE, do.
And for them, I have recommended NO form of prosecution.
As THIS **proves** --
There is NO EXCUSE for such lawbreaking.
And possibly the very BEST way to handle this problem in
(¯`·.¸Craig Chilton¸.·´¯) -- Rx for RRR Cult's Loathsome Agendas: Extinction!
[[[ Ray said NOTHING factual in response, so this
post again is MY response to him. ]]
Ray Fischer <rfis...@sonic.net> wrote:
> (¯`·.¸Craig Chilton¸.·´¯) -- Rx for RRR Cult's Loathsome
> Agendas: Extinction! <xan...@mchsi.com> wrote:
>> Living in DENIAL of the FACTS About **ILLEGAL** Aliens
>> is NOT Something that *SENSIBLE* People would do.
> Hateful comments would be any that encourage discrimination
> and bigotry against any person or group on the basis of their race,
> beliefs, orientation, handedness, ethnicity, eye color, or any other
> TRIVIALITY that is no one else's business but that of each individual
> person him/herself.
> Chilton in <e96474lofhje8u943...@4ax.com>
[[[ Ray has clearly LOST it, folks. There is NOTHING in my
Improper Entry by Alien
Living in DENIAL of the FACTS About **ILLEGAL** Aliens
is NOT Something that *SENSIBLE* People would do.
When I wrote that subject header, I'd considered the possibility
Emerson Wainwright
>
> >> If the URL doesn't work, combine its components,
> >> below, in your browser:
>
> >> http://
> >> apifar.blogspot.com/
> >> 2008/01/almost-all-of-usas-14-million-illegal.html
> > And what do we do about outsourcing, where U.S. dollars are
> > actually going to other countries to be spent?
>
> You're going to have to tell me just how that isn't apples-and-
> oranges to THIS dicussion.
I don't see my full reply in this post so will provide it here:
I wrote: "And what do we do about outsourcing, where U.S. dollars are
actually
going to other countries to be spent? And where are we going to find
Americans who are willing to work for minimum wage to clean toilets?
Even the uneducated ones won't do it."
So, as to apples and oranges, I'll try to explain best I can my views,
and how OUTSOURCING might be even worse than illegal immigrants
working here.
First -- and I think you'll understand this, whether you agree with it
or not -- I want to give you my "worldview". Of myself or any
individual. I know that governments have sprung up and they want to
keep some people OUT while allowing others IN. This is a relatively
recent development in the course of human events, I think you'll
agree.
But....
My feeling is that I was born to this EARTH. Not just to a country.
I feel that I should be able to travel wherever I want, and to live
wherever I want. I have ALWAYS had a problem with MY government
telling me I can't go to Cuba! It's not their fucking business!
But I understand that in the modern day, this is not possible. People
still thinks the streets of New York are paved with gold. I lived in
New York for 20 years. Only a small fraction of the population has
access to that gold.
Man has created governments to prevent easy immigration, or to make it
difficult. I have a friend from Costa Rica who is CONSIDERED to be
here legally, but in fact contracted a sham marriage. On the other
hand, he contributes directly to the American economy, as ALL the
money he spends is spent here. So why keep him out? And right NOW,
he's working at McDonald's. His previous job was at a WalMart, where
most of the staff seemed also to speak Spanish. Why are not the
American teens you say want these jobs, going to get them? Why is my
local 7-Eleven staffed almost entirely by Haitians?
Outsourcing is just using foreign non-citizens to do the work of U.S.
citizens.
So, apples and oranges? Paying illegal immigrants is ALSO using
foreign non-citizens to do the work of U.S. citizens. So, not apples
and oranges at all. Just apples, or just oranges. U.S. corporate
dollars are being used to hire non-citizens.
But non-citizens who LIVE here are spending money locally, while those
outsourced employees are not. Indeed, outsourced employees in, say,
India, are getting paid better, locally, than illegal immigrants
here. But it's the same thing: using non-Americans to do work for
American companies, without those non-Americans being citizens or even
contributing to the U.S. economy with their paychecks (rent, homes,
food, property taxes, etc.).
>
> > And where are we going to find Americans who are willing to
> > work for minimum wage to clean toilets? Even the uneducated
> > ones won't do it.
>
> I remember doing some MENIAL jobs when I was a mid-teenager.
So did I!!! But that was over 30 years ago! Times, they have
changed. You can blame TV or whatever, but society has changed
drastically since even the mid-1970s. Kids see BLING on TV and all
around them, and THAT'S what they want! They don't want to clean the
toilets in the local radio station at age 14 as I did.
> THAT'S where the workforce for those jobs will come from. Just
> as was the case BEFORE there were significant nimbers of illegal
> aliens.
American kids don't want those jobs. Perhaps it will guide them
towards college, if they want the bling-bling they see all around
them. Most kids are computer savvy, and they already have a leg up on
those of us who came of age in the 1970s -- we had no technical skills
in high school (unless you consider shop class), computer science was
in its infancy, and kids today even without college can just work off
the books to clean up and repair the computers of older generations.
Kids today have an attitude that we did not possess in the 1970s. The
education system has gone down the tubes since that time, too.
Do you know ANY high school seniors -- or even most college kids these
days -- who know how to WRITE? I'll tell ya, they are few and far
between.
Emerson Wainwright
Loathsome Agendas: Extinction!" <xan...@mchsi.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 7 Jul 2008 12:50:10 -0700 (PDT),
>
I often have a problem with that word "should". Strange word.
> Justice
> is depressingly LAX with this!
Because most of us see that "illegals" perform a service and
contribute to the economy, while also keeping prices down. They
almost always work for well below minimum wage.
> >2. People who have entered without inspection or overstayed visas
> > typically are folks who would never qualify for an immigration visa.
> > The reason is simple, our system favors family reunions and certain
> > types of investors. So under the quotas established each year, all
> > available slots are taken up by relatives of legal US residents,
> > people willing to invest millions of dollars in the US economy and
> > certain limited slots for example in the high tech industry for
> > workers employed there. The simple truth is that if you do not have a
> > a relative already in the US, your likelihood of getting a visa is very
> > slim unless you are some sort of computer whiz or major league
> > investor.
>
> That's the breaks. BUT -- that could be corrected. Congress
> needs to find a way to make the legal immigration process more
> equitable, across-the-board.
Congress would be led by corporate America, who largely WANT illegals
here. It costs them less $$$$$.
> >3. The US currently is running a shortage of available people for a
> > large number of the employment positions in our society including
> > lower paying menial tasks. As Boomers retire, this shortage of
> > available workers will only increase for at least the next 20 to 25
> > years. US citizens will not work in the fields picking tomatoes or
> > fruit or lettuce because they can get better paying jobs elsewhere.
>
> Whe I was in my mid-teens, working that way on upstate New York
> truck farms WAS my employment. I survived just fine, and so can
> the millions of mid-teens living in America today.
They don't wanna. They all wanna be rap stars.
> > They are unwilling to be landscape workers, dishwashers or janitors in
> > the numbers needed to fill available positions. They can get better
> > paid positions doing other types of work.
>
> I've known janitors who have a surprising amount on the ball,
> mentally. That said, over 5% of any given large population have
> IQs of 70 and lower... the threshhold of mental limitations that
> used to be called "retardation." These more menial jobs that require
> little creative thinking or decision-making skills are ones to which
> most of those folks could be amenable. And as they certainly were
> BEFORE this huge influx of illegal aliens. If that number were as
> small as 5% (and it may be as much as 8%), that would be 15
> million people.
When we bring mental retardation into the discussion of illegal
immigrants... we have a problem.
> > Now the solution to this is to either drastically increase the compen-
> > sation and benefits for those classes of employment with the vain
> > hope of attracting more US citizen to perform the work or use the
> > current labor pool which will work forthe wages being paid. Of course
> > we should realize that if the costs of picking produce increase, that
> > increase will be passed on to us. The increase in fuel costs involved
> > in processing and transporting those products to market recently
> > are just a small indicator of what the increases would involve.
>
> The deepening recession now underway might just serendipitously
> make that question moot, as unemployment rates increas.
NOW people will be more willing to take the more menial unskilled
jobs. But you're still going to be more likely to see a house go into
foreclosure, than its occupants applying for a chambermaid position at
the Hyatt.
> > 4. Contrary to public opinion and the claims of some, if one looks at
> > the total economic footprint of the "illegals" and o not at simply
> > certain selected portions of the economy, the Pew Trust has found that
> > illegals contribute billions of dollars into the economy. Social
> > Security relies on the funds deposited into the Trust of roughly one
> > third of its yearly funding. Billions more are collected nationwide
> > in Federal, State and local taxes, including sales taxes. 40% of the
> > small business in this country are run by immigrants including
> > "illegals" and those businesses employ millions of US citizens a well
> > as "illegals".
>
> I can see how they might help with SALES tax revenue. But HOW
> can they pay INCOME taxes without documentation.
Change the laws. That's how.
Additionally, illegals pay into the economy directly (rent, food,
transportation, etc.), while outsourced workers do not.
> It would seem
> to me that the illegal-alien pool would ALSO have to be the biggest
> pool if income-tax evaders.
The vast majority would pay no income tax at all due to low wages.
They also would not be able to take income tax credits or that "low-
income working-poor" credit (I forget what it's called).
> And that would include payments to
> Social Security.
Change the law and they can pay into SS. Of course, they're not
entitled to RECEIVE $ from SS, you understand, and SS is considered
"insurance" for all intents and purposes.
> Paying Social Security to PHONY SS accounts would
> have to be a DANDY way for both the illegals and their employers to
> be caught and prosecuted.
If they're paying in, why would you have a problem? You JUST SAID
they weren't paying in, so if they find a way to pay in... WTF?
> >5. Advocates of deporting "illegals" ignore the economic and social
> > costs of deporting these people.
>
> With my plan, that's irrelevant. It makes NO provision for
> deporting people just FOR being illegal aliens.
>
> > They wish to make it so tough on the illegals that they will be forced
> > to leave but historically countries that have tried this approach have
> > eradicated some of the "illegal" work force they have done so at a
> > heavy price.
>
> Under my proposed law, NO one would be forced to leave except
> for the fact that if they stayed beyond the grace period, there would
> be NO work available for them.
Well, the work is ALREADY "not available" to them under current law.
It is NEVER "available" to them.
But them get the jobs anyway. And farmers and corporate America turn
a blind eye, as does Congress.
It's not this huge problem you're making it out to be.
> > Further they have not eradicated all of the illegal work force which
> > simply slips deeper underground and continues to work, facing
> > increased exploitation...
>
> Make prison sentences and heavy fines MANDATORY for all
> employers of illegal aliens, and I can guarantee that work for illegal
> aliens woud be as hard to come by as cherry bombs and M-80s. Have
> you seen ANY of *those* in the last 30 years?
>
> > ...WA black market for labor appears and is used by less scrupulous
> > people to undercut law abiding businesses who then are faced with
> > the choice of going out of business or doing the same.
>
> NO employer would DARE hire or retain illegal aliens under the law
> I propose. As in: ZERO!
And the price to society? Increased food and labor costs, passed on
the consumer.
We ALL pay, either way.
At least with illegals immigrants, we get some if not most of that
money almost immediately back into our own economy. This is not the
case with outsourced workers.
Ray Fischer
>On 08 Jul 2008 15:53:09 GMT,
>Ray Fischer <rfis...@sonic.net> wrote:
>> (¯`·.¸Craig Chilton¸.·´¯) -- Rx for RRR Cult's Loathsome
>> Agendas: Extinction! <xan...@mchsi.com> wrote:
>>> Ray Fischer -- Criminal-coddler <rfis...@sonic.net> wrote:
>>>> (¯`·.¸Craig Chilton¸.·´¯) -- Help Make the USA Bigotry-FREE! wrote:
>
>
>[ ... ]
>
>>>>> There is NO EXCUSE for such lawbreaking.
>
>>>> Then you must be executed for YOUR crimes, hypocrite.
>
>>> I have advocated NO executions.
>
>> "There is NO EXCUSE for such lawbreaking."...
>
> ...as the ILLEGAL aliens that you so moronically CODDLE, do.
The coward chilton changes the subject because he cannot apply his own
rules to himself.
--
Ray Fischer
rfis...@sonic.net
juanjo
Loathsome Agendas: Extinction!" <xan...@mchsi.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 7 Jul 2008 12:50:10 -0700 (PDT),
>
>
> This followed by Section 1326: Reentry of Removed Aliens
>
> ... which provides for more serious penalties (felonious).
>
> SO MUCH for solid LAW not already being in place. The law is
> strict, and CANN AND SHOULD be strictly *enforced*. Justice
> is depressingly LAX with this!
Let be a little more clear about this as i see I was remiss. The
Attorney General has the option of using an administrative deportation
procedure or using the criminal procedures you correctly posted. Now
let me again explain why for a simple overstay of a visa or entering
without inspection, the criminal penalties are not used. If an alien
is charged with a crime, the full civil rights that are available to
any criminal defendant are available to him. He gets a lawyer and a
trial before a jury. If we used criminal statutes to prosecute every
alien who entered without inspection, then the court docket would be
filled to overflowing and the entire system would grind to halt.
>
> >2. People who have entered without inspection or overstayed visas
> > typically are folks who would never qualify for an immigration visa.
> > The reason is simple, our system favors family reunions and certain
> > types of investors. So under the quotas established each year, all
> > available slots are taken up by relatives of legal US residents,
> > people willing to invest millions of dollars in the US economy and
> > certain limited slots for example in the high tech industry for
> > workers employed there. The simple truth is that if you do not have a
> > a relative already in the US, your likelihood of getting a visa is very
> > slim unless you are some sort of computer whiz or major league
> > investor.
>
> That's the breaks. BUT -- that could be corrected. Congress
> needs to find a way to make the legal immigration process more
> equitable, across-the-board.
That's the breaks indeed. Every bozo bitching about illegal aliens
accuses them of jumping to the front of the line even though there is
no line they qualify for and even though there is a market for their
services here in the USA.
>
> >3. The US currently is running a shortage of available people for a
> > large number of the employment positions in our society including
> > lower paying menial tasks. As Boomers retire, this shortage of
> > available workers will only increase for at least the next 20 to 25
> > years. US citizens will not work in the fields picking tomatoes or
> > fruit or lettuce because they can get better paying jobs elsewhere.
>
> Whe I was in my mid-teens, working that way on upstate New York
> truck farms WAS my employment. I survived just fine, and so can
> the millions of mid-teens living in America today.
Nice declarative sentence but do you have any facts to back it up?
When I was a teen I worked minimum wage jobs and was able to rent an
apartment and ride the subway and bus to work each day. I couldn't
now. But even more importantly, the teens who are coming into the US
job market have no desire to work on truck farms. They have other
higher paying options available to them and they take them. Hence the
shortage of available workers for the positions.
>
> > They are unwilling to be landscape workers, dishwashers or janitors in
> > the numbers needed to fill available positions. They can get better
> > paid positions doing other types of work.
>
> I've known janitors who have a surprising amount on the ball,
> mentally. That said, over 5% of any given large population have
> IQs of 70 and lower... the threshhold of mental limitations that
> used to be called "retardation." These more menial jobs that require
> little creative thinking or decision-making skills are ones to which
> most of those folks could be amenable. And as they certainly were
> BEFORE this huge influx of illegal aliens. If that number were as
> small as 5% (and it may be as much as 8%), that would be 15
> million people.
That has to be one of the more ridiculous comments you have ever
posted. You are just plucking numbers out of the air and making
assumptions left and right. How do youo propose to get all these
mentally limited people to do these jobs? repeal the 13th Amendment?
>
> > Now the solution to this is to either drastically increase the compen-
> > sation and benefits for those classes of employment with the vain
> > hope of attracting more US citizen to perform the work or use the
> > current labor pool which will work for the wages being paid. Of course
> > we should realize that if the costs of picking produce increase, that
> > increase will be passed on to us. The increase in fuel costs involved
> > in processing and transporting those products to market recently
> > are just a small indicator of what the increases would involve.
>
> The deepening recession now underway might just serendipitously
> make that question moot, as unemployment rates increas.
And then again perhaps not. Unemployment is still in the 5% range
last I checked.
>
> > 4. Contrary to public opinion and the claims of some, if one looks at
> > the total economic footprint of the "illegals" and not at simply
> > certain selected portions of the economy, the Pew Trust has found that
> > illegals contribute billions of dollars into the economy. Social
> > Security relies on the funds deposited into the Trust of roughly one
> > third of its yearly funding. Billions more are collected nationwide
> > in Federal, State and local taxes, including sales taxes. 40% of the
> > small business in this country are run by immigrants including
> > "illegals" and those businesses employ millions of US citizens a well
> > as "illegals".
>
> I can see how they might help with SALES tax revenue. But HOW
> can they pay INCOME taxes without documentation. It would seem
> to me that the illegal-alien pool would ALSO have to be the biggest
> pool if income-tax evaders. And that would include payments to
> Social Security. Paying Social Security to PHONY SS accounts would
> have to be a DANDY way for both the illegals and their employers to
> be caught and prosecuted.
As you may not be aware the vast majority of these people work under
false papers. Federal, state and social security taxes are deducted
from their wages just as they are for anyone. The smart ones have
received tax payer identification numbers which are different from
social security numbers and they file 1040's using those numbers. The
remainder never file but never receive their tax refund checks to
which they are entitled. The government has had very reliable data on
this "overpayment" for decades now. Social security sends the person
a letter saying that there is a discrepancy between their records and
the information received from the employer. But they don't give the
money back to the alien and because he or she is not a citizen they
can never collect social security. The amount we are talking about
here is billions of dollars and you are naive indeed if you think that
the government is really going to a lot about tracking those folks
down.
>
> >5. Advocates of deporting "illegals" ignore the economic and social
> > costs of deporting these people.
>
> With my plan, that's irrelevant. It makes NO provision for
> deporting people just FOR being illegal aliens.
ROFLOL
>
> > They wish to make it so tough on the illegals that they will be forced
> > to leave but historically countries that have tried this approach have
> > eradicated some of the "illegal" work force they have done so at a
> > heavy price.
>
> Under my proposed law, NO one would be forced to leave except
> for the fact that if they stayed beyond the grace period, there would
> be NO work available for them.
ROFLOL
>
> > Further they have not eradicated all of the illegal work force which
> > simply slips deeper underground and continues to work, facing
> > increased exploitation...
>
> Make prison sentences and heavy fines MANDATORY for all
> employers of illegal aliens, and I can guarantee that work for illegal
> aliens woud be as hard to come by as cherry bombs and M-80s. Have
> you seen ANY of *those* in the last 30 years?
ROFLOL
Cherry bombs and M80's, I can go to Chinatown and buy those when ever
I wish. Used some M80s on a very pesky rodent in the back yard who
was burrowing under my tomatoes just last week.
>
> > ...WA black market for labor appears and is used by less scrupulous
> > people to undercut law abiding businesses who then are faced with
> > the choice of going out of business or doing the same.
>
> NO employer would DARE hire or retain illegal aliens under the law
> I propose. As in: ZERO!
ROFLOL
>
> > Finally in enacting laws and regulations to enforce this deportation
> > policy, the "reformers" have to further restrict the rights of legal
> > residents and citizens. A large number of US citizen retirees found
> > this out in Arizona when that state toughened its laws requiring proof
> > of citizenship for most
> >government services and benefits, forcing retirees originally from out
> >of state
>
> ...
>
> read more »
(¯`·.¸Craig Chilton¸.·´¯) -- Rx for RRR Cult's Loathsome Agendas: Extinction!
> (¯`·.¸Craig Chilton¸.·´¯) -- Rx for RRR Cult's Loathsome
> Agendas: Extinction! <xan...@mchsi.com> wrote:
>> Ray Fischer -- Criminal-coddler <rfis...@sonic.net> wrote:
>>> (¯`·.¸Craig Chilton¸.·´¯) -- Rx for RRR Cult's Loathsome
>>> Agendas: Extinction! <xan...@mchsi.com> wrote:
>>>> Ray Fischer -- Criminal-coddler <rfis...@sonic.net> wrote:
>>>>> (¯`·.¸Craig Chilton¸.·´¯) -- Help Make the USA Bigotry-FREE! wrote:
[ ... ]
>>>>>> There is NO EXCUSE for such lawbreaking.
>>>>> Then you must be executed for YOUR crimes, hypocrite.
[[[ READERS: This loon says this because I got a speeding ticket
almost 4 years ago. He's clearly LOST it. ]]]
>>>> I have advocated NO executions. Not even any *prosecu-
>>>> tions* of ILLEGAL aliens. As my article below PROVES.
>>> "There is NO EXCUSE for such lawbreaking."...
>> ...as the ILLEGAL aliens that you so moronically CODDLE, do.
> The coward chilton changes the subject because he cannot apply
> his own rules to himself.
Readers om my posts to you, and your INANE and LYING ones to
me know that it it *YOU* who CONSTANTLY DUCKS my challenge to
provide solid FACTS that would refute ANY of the points I've made
about correcting the ILLEGAL alien problem.
In case you didn't know it, that makes you our to be a blithering
idiot, for all to see and laugh at. You WHINA about my proposals, and
LIE that I'm "bigoted."
(LOL!!! Readers -- just HOW is it "bigoted" to simply require
ILLEGAL-alien criminals to return home again, peacefully and comfort-
able,*without* prosecution or deportation... while DEFENDING the
rights of the 285 milllion Americans who are LEGAL immigrants, resi-
dents, and citizens. I'm really beginning to wonder if Ray is certifiable,
because there has been NOTHING sane about the wacky and lying
claims and whines he's been emitting. Incessantly.)
Polly want a cracker, Ray?
Look at the subject header, Ray. The one trying desperately to
change the subject (WITHOUT success) is you. And THIS *is* the
subject. ---
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
There is NO EXCUSE for such lawbreaking.
And possibly the very BEST way to handle this problem in
Ray Fischer
>Ray Fischer
>>>>>>> There is NO EXCUSE for such lawbreaking.
>
>>>>>> Then you must be executed for YOUR crimes, hypocrite.
>
> [[[ READERS: This loon says this because I got a speeding ticket
> almost 4 years ago.
And according to YOU, "There is NO EXCUSE for such lawbreaking."
By your own standards you are damned.
>>>>> I have advocated NO executions. Not even any *prosecu-
>>>>> tions* of ILLEGAL aliens. As my article below PROVES.
>
>>>> "There is NO EXCUSE for such lawbreaking."...
>
>>> ...as the ILLEGAL aliens that you so moronically CODDLE, do.
>
>> The coward chilton changes the subject because he cannot apply
>> his own rules to himself.
>
> Readers om my posts to you, and your INANE and LYING ones to
Run away, hypocrite.
--
Ray Fischer
rfis...@sonic.net
(¯`·.¸Craig Chilton¸.·´¯) -- Rx for RRR Cult's Loathsome Agendas: Extinction!
[[[ Ray made NO factual points, so previous post is
repeated, below. ]]
Ray Fischer -- Criminal-coddler and Liar <rfis...@sonic.net> wrote:
> (¯`·.¸Craig Chilton¸.·´¯) -- Rx for RRR Cult's Loathsome
> Agendas: Extinction! <xan...@mchsi.com> wrote:
>> Ray Fischer -- Criminal-coddler <rfis...@sonic.net> wrote:
>>> (¯`·.¸Craig Chilton¸.·´¯) -- Rx for RRR Cult's Loathsome
>>> Agendas: Extinction! <xan...@mchsi.com> wrote:
>>>> Ray Fischer -- Criminal-coddler <rfis...@sonic.net> wrote:
>>>>> (¯`·.¸Craig Chilton¸.·´¯) -- Help Make the USA Bigotry-FREE! wrote:
[ ... ]
>>>>>> There is NO EXCUSE for such lawbreaking.
>>>>> Then you must be executed for YOUR crimes, hypocrite.
[[[ READERS: This loon says this because I got a speeding ticket
almost 4 years ago. He's clearly LOST it. ]]]
>>>> I have advocated NO executions. Not even any *prosecu-
>>>> tions* of ILLEGAL aliens. As my article below PROVES.
>>> "There is NO EXCUSE for such lawbreaking."...
>> ...as the ILLEGAL aliens that you so moronically CODDLE, do.
> The coward chilton changes the subject because he cannot apply
> his own rules to himself.
Readers om my posts to you, and your INANE and LYING ones to
There is NO EXCUSE for such lawbreaking.
And possibly the very BEST way to handle this problem in
Ray Fischer
>On 09 Jul 2008 02:42:13 GMT,
>
> [[[ Ray made NO factual points,
"Declare victory and retreat".
> so previous post is
> repeated, below. ]]
Spam.
--
Ray Fischer
rfis...@sonic.net
(¯`·.¸Craig Chilton¸.·´¯) -- Rx for RRR Cult's Loathsome Agendas: Extinction!
[[[ Ray made NO factual points, so previous post is
repeated, below. ]]
Ray Fischer -- Criminal-coddler and Liar <rfis...@sonic.net> wrote:
> (¯`·.¸Craig Chilton¸.·´¯) -- Rx for RRR Cult's Loathsome
> Agendas: Extinction! <xan...@mchsi.com> wrote:
>> Ray Fischer -- Criminal-coddler <rfis...@sonic.net> wrote:
>>> (¯`·.¸Craig Chilton¸.·´¯) -- Rx for RRR Cult's Loathsome
>>> Agendas: Extinction! <xan...@mchsi.com> wrote:
Ray Fischer
>On 09 Jul 2008 02:42:13 GMT,
>
> [[[ Ray made NO factual points,
These are the facts that the coward chilton runs away from:
>>>>>> Then you must be executed for YOUR crimes, hypocrite.
>
> [[[ READERS: This loon says this because I got a speeding ticket
> almost 4 years ago.
And according to YOU, "There is NO EXCUSE for such lawbreaking."
By your own standards you are damned.
--
Ray Fischer
rfis...@sonic.net
Ray Fischer
>On 11 Jul 2008 02:51:07 GMT,
>
> [[[ Ray made NO factual points, so previous post is
Stop spamming, asshole.
--
Ray Fischer
rfis...@sonic.net
(¯`·.¸Craig Chilton¸.·´¯) -- Rx for RRR Cult's Loathsome Agendas: Extinction!
Ray Fischer <rfis...@sonic.net>...
[[[ Ray made NO factual points, so previous post is
(¯`·.¸Craig Chilton¸.·´¯) -- Rx for RRR Cult's Loathsome Agendas: Extinction!
[[[ Ray made NO factual points, so previous post is
repeated, below. ]]
Ray Fischer -- Criminal-coddler and Liar <rfis...@sonic.net> wrote:
> (¯`·.¸Craig Chilton¸.·´¯) -- Rx for RRR Cult's Loathsome
> Agendas: Extinction! <xan...@mchsi.com> wrote:
>> Ray Fischer -- Criminal-coddler <rfis...@sonic.net> wrote:
>>> (¯`·.¸Craig Chilton¸.·´¯) -- Rx for RRR Cult's Loathsome
>>> Agendas: Extinction! <xan...@mchsi.com> wrote:
>>>> Ray Fischer -- Criminal-coddler <rfis...@sonic.net> wrote:
>>>>> (¯`·.¸Craig Chilton¸.·´¯) -- Help Make the USA Bigotry-FREE! wrote:
[ ... ]
>>>>>> There is NO EXCUSE for such lawbreaking.
>>>>> Then you must be executed for YOUR crimes, hypocrite.
[[[ READERS: This loon says this because I got a speeding ticket
There is NO EXCUSE for such lawbreaking.
And possibly the very BEST way to handle this problem in
james g. keegan jr.
[...spam deleted ...]
--
"You tried to steal the identity of a James G. Keegan Jr. who did in
fact author a book, and you're trying to convince people that you are
the same person." -- corrupt prison clerk heishman lying as "Osprey"
in an effort to cover-up his earlier lie that i was not an author
<noneedtok...@mail.com>
in<v4qdndNQW_fFAMXanZ2dnUVZ_sOrn...@comcast.com>
Ray Fischer
>On 11 Jul 2008 03:09:11 GMT,
>
>
> [[[ Ray made NO factual points,
Chilton is lying. There's a factual point.
> so previous post is
> repeated, below. ]]
chiton's going to spam the newsgroup again because of his massve ego.
--
Ray Fischer
rfis...@sonic.net
(¯`·.¸Craig Chilton¸.·´¯) -- Rx for RRR Cult's Loathsome Agendas: Extinction!
> (¯`·.¸Craig Chilton¸.·´¯) -- Rx for RRR Cult's Loathsome
> Agendas: Extinction! <xan...@mchsi.com> wrote:
>>On 11 Jul 2008 03:09:11 GMT,
...Ray Fischer DISHONESTLY **omitted** very
RELEVANT portions of what I'd said in another
post, including several facts.
[[[ READERS: Please *compare* my posts(including
the one re-presented below, to the hatchet jobs
done to them, and the vacuousness of his
comments when he... uh... "responds" to them. ]]]
* * * * * * * * *
Ray Fischer <rfis...@sonic.net> wrote:
> (¯`·.¸Craig Chilton¸.·´¯) -- Rx for RRR Cult's Loathsome
> Agendas: Extinction! <xan...@mchsi.com> wrote:
>> Christians are disparaged by many, if not most, free-thinkers and
>> atheists for several reasons, probably, but I'm betting the FOREMOST
>> one is the superior attitute we SEEM to present, and the dogmatic
>> adherence to the notion that EVERYONE who is NOT a Christian is
>> doomed to perdition.
> Chilton pretends to be a christian while rejecting some of the core
> tenets of Christ's teachings. Charity is only to be accorded to
> people that he approves of. Others can suffer and even die.
(1) "Christian" is capitalized, O illiterate one.
(2) Egalitarians are charitable to everyone -- EXCEPT bigots
who seek to destroy the personal liberties of others.
(3) See SIG.
>> Then, too, right up there at the top of the list is the perception that
>> Christians are hateful, bigoted, and seek to deprive tens of millions
>> of people of personal liberties, such as abortion and same-sex marriage.
> Which you do, in fact, do.
Outright LIE. I constantly defend the rights of women and gays.
(And if you're referring to YOUR attempts to *coddle* ILLEGAL
aliens, who have no entitlement to rights in a country that they
*intruded* by SNEAKING in -- that's apples-and-oranges. And you
REMAIN too COWARDLY to offer ANY *facts* to refute any of the
points made in the *second* SIG, below.)
-- Craig Chilton
xana...@mchsi.com -- To E-Mail me.
http://www.roadrat.com -- Learn how to get PAID to TRAVEL.
http://apifar.blogspot.com -- Great TACTICS to Fight Bigotry.
http://pro-christian.blogspot.com -- Christianity *vs.* Bigotry.
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
How Necessary is Christian Proselytizing?
I *do* believe Jesus when He said "No man sees the Father
but through me." But I do NOT believe that a loving God would
allow billions of people to be consigned to an eternity in hell
UNLESS they first had had a clear-cut chance to REJECT Christ.
And if that chance does NOT present itself to a person while
alive, I think it is very LIKELY that it would be presented in some
manner after death.
Here's why. God is omnipotent, and probably is able to
get His way in the end. AND, he has clearly stated that
He does NOT want ANYone to perish. Per 2 Peter 3:9 --
2 Peter 3:9 KJVR The Lord is not slack concerning
his promise, as some men count slackness; but is long-
suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish,
but that all should come to repentance.
Obviously, since perhaps as many as a billion people in
the world at any given time are living their entire lives having
NO knowledge of Christ, it would seem to take a very UNloving
God to allow them to go to hell by default. And that would be
antithetical to the many examples that Jesus (who IS God)
set. Not the least of which was with the woman at the well.
Which might well be a "TYPE" of that after-death last chnce.
In other words, it would be inconsistent for God to be a
LOVING God and then send Buddhists, etc. who CARED for
people to eternity in Hell *without* having FIRST given them
a chance to choose that or Jesus. And Jesus said that NO
one sees the Father except through Him. MILLIONS (as
in at least hundreds of millions, and maybe a billion or more
people never even hear about Jesus in their lifetimes. Espec-
ially those who die as teens, and in their 20s and 30s, as is
so often the case in 3rd World countries.
Thus, I firmly believe that for those who never rejected
Jesus in life will SOMEHOW (which the Bible never mentions)
get the chance to accept Him after death. (Consider the
trillions of things the Bible *never* mentions, and figure that
this untold mechanism for salvation is probably one of those.)
So I've never put proselytizing on the front burner. (That
said though, please read the BOTTOM LINE, below.)
It's been suggested to me that this is impossible because
the Bible says that it is appointed to man once to die, and
then the judgment. HOWEVER, evern though those two
events happen in that *order*, there's nothing to indicate
that certain events can't intervene BETWEEN those events.
Such as people being given another/last chance to learn
about Jesus, and accept Him as Savior. For all who'd NEVER
heard of Him, and possibly even for those who'd never
learned *enough* about Him to make a decision. Thus,
billions of people would NOT perish -- which is in keeping with
the way God said He PREFERS it to be.
WHO would teach those people, after they died, but
before they faced judgment? Well -- God has a LOT of
ANGELS. And assuming they all aren't engaged in putting
out place settings for the Marriage Supper of the Lamb,
there could be a LOT of instruction going on.
So WHY proselytize in the first place, here on earth? I
can think of a couple of reasons. The first being the unlikely
chance that ONLY people who avoid hell accept Christ here.
But I think the second is more likely... to test Christians to
see how obedient they can be. And to help us grow AS
Christians. But perhaps more importantly, to cause greater
numbers of people to spread Christian love throughout the
world, and to have them *already* be set to go before the
Bema Seat for the *good* judgment.
Is proselytization a BAD thing? of course not, if done
sensibly. But getting in people's faces is only likely to drive
people AWAY from Christ. And if they REJECT Christ in life,
there very well be NO chance accorded to them after death,
should such chances BE given to some. So BECAUSE we
have no idea whethr that's the case for sure, but MORE
importantly, because we have NO idea whethr or not any
given person has learned about Christ, but has NOT yet
made a decision (so may be ineligibl for a last chance after
death), it's a good idea to seek a decision from them here
on earth.
BOTTOM LINE: Proselytizing is a GOOD thing to do, in
line with Jesus "Great Commission" to His followers. BUT --
if a person tells us he/she's not interested, we THEN are
instructed to do THIS:
Matt 10:14 -- If anyone will not welcome you
or listen to your words, shake the dust off your
feet when you leave that home or town.
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
And the points YOU can't refute, Ray ---
FACTS about ILLEGAL Aliens
(1) ILLEGAL aliens did not belong here in the FIRST place.
(2) Federal laws prohibit undocumented entry into the USA.
(3) Federal laws STRICTLY prohibit WORKING in the USA without
proper and legal documentation (such as a Green Card.)
(4) Every ILLEGAL alien is a CRIMINAL by default, for entering
illegally, and even MORE of one if WORKING here.
(5) Throughout our history, tens of millions of people have
worked HARD to EARN residency and citizenship here.
(a) CRIMINALS should NEVER be *rewarded* for being
criminals.
(b) According LEGAL status to ILLEGAL, criminal aliens
without their INSTEAD applying for it through proper
channels and EARNING it would be a massive **insult**
to the millions who did it the RIGHT and LEGAL way.
(6) Urge your Congressperson to SUPPORT H.R. 1940.
More information:
http://apifar.blogspot.com/2008/01/almost-all-of-usas-14-million-illegal.html
If the URL doesn't work, combine its components,
below, in your browser:
http://
apifar.blogspot.com/
2008/01/almost-all-of-usas-14-million-illegal.html
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*