Re: Funeral of Reagan in Episcopal Cathedral
MAK
"happenrapper" <bra...@ragingbulll.com> wrote in message
news:40c9ff23...@news.erols.com...
> "St. Matthew's Cathedral is the seat of the Bishop"
>
> actually, St. Matthew's Cathedral is the seat of the Archbishop of
> Washington (at present a Cardinal) and the Bishop of the Diocese of
> Washington...it is Roman Catholic, not protestant.
>
> Anyway, it is not important--at least not to me. I am hopeful that
> the Church of Rome and the Anglican Communion will one day be
one...a
> few heavy obstacles to jump, but it could happen if and when Rome
> tones it down a bit and enters the 21st century.
Perhaps it could happen if the Anglican Communion, particularly it's
Episcopal province, stopped repudiating scripture and began practicing
Christian principles. Rome is not the problem.
MAK
MAK
Moses
Everyone knows it's just his body there. His soul is already in Hell.
The devil got his mind years ago, and now has his soul.
You'll probably join him in time.
Sumbuny
<posting from a.r.c.r-c>
I watched the funeral with interest--it was very moving, very beautiful. As
a Catholic choir member, I have sung at many funeral Masses, and Catholic
funeral services (not including a Mass) and I noted many similarities.
However, I do have a question:
What church ritual was the basis for the ceremony here?
I understand the Reagans are Presbyterian, and that the minister who
conducted the service is Episcopalian....would those in either of those
church say that the service--though ecumenical--was basically Episcopalian,
or Presbyterian?
Thanks,
Buny
jeb
news:rA2zc.6504$qg.6139@lakeread06...
Prayer (page 469) - the service for the "Burial of the Dead" (Rite 1). Some
parts were left out but what he did recite was verbatim from the liturgy, up
to the point where the Eucharist would normally (?) start. [Actually, I've
never seen Eucharist happen at an Episcopal funeral, but it's in the prayer
book.]
He may have also recited some of the prayers following the Eucharist part of
the liturgy, I don't know.
Sumbuny
"jeb" <qwert...@zxcvbnm.lkj> wrote in message
news:WJ7zc.64665$My6.2886@fed1read05...
Thanks! Much of the ritual was very similar to a Catholic Memorial service,
except that there was no Eucharist (Catholic Memorial services do have the
distribution of the Eucharist; the Mass has the full Liturgy of the
Eucharist, which includes the consecration from bread/wine to Body/Blood).
I actually caught myself a couple of times thinking the (Catholic)
responses--they were not the same, but close.
I also noticed Beethoven's "Hymn to Joy" sung, with slightly different words
than we have--beautiful just the same.
This is what I like about UseNet (I am posting from a.r.c.r-c), even the
cross-posting (or *because* of it?).....we can *learn from each other*, if
we dare to! <G>
Buny
Elbert Wall
> Thanks! Much of the ritual was very similar to a Catholic Memorial service,
> except that there was no Eucharist (Catholic Memorial services do have the
> distribution of the Eucharist; the Mass has the full Liturgy of the
> Eucharist, which includes the consecration from bread/wine to Body/Blood).
> I actually caught myself a couple of times thinking the (Catholic)
> responses--they were not the same, but close.
>
> I also noticed Beethoven's "Hymn to Joy" sung, with slightly different words
> than we have--beautiful just the same.
It's hymn 376 in the 1982 Episcopal Hymnal, though I didn't pay close
enough attention to know if those were the words they used. The
Southern Baptists call the hymn "Joyful, Joyful, We Adore Thee" and use
a completely different tune.
> This is what I like about UseNet (I am posting from a.r.c.r-c), even the
> cross-posting (or *because* of it?).....we can *learn from each other*, if
> we dare to! <G>
Scary, isn't it?
Sine Nomine
news:zzCzc.5503$Wr....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> Sumbuny wrote:
-- snip --
> > I also noticed Beethoven's "Hymn to Joy" sung, with slightly different
words
> > than we have--beautiful just the same.
>
> It's hymn 376 in the 1982 Episcopal Hymnal, though I didn't pay close
> enough attention to know if those were the words they used. The
> Southern Baptists call the hymn "Joyful, Joyful, We Adore Thee" and use
> a completely different tune.
The Hymn Tune was indeed Hymnal 1982 number 376 "Hymn to Joy" (after
Beethoven's "Ode to Joy"). The hymn itself, however is not in either the
1940 or 1982 hymnals. It is the first two verses of William J. Iron's 1873
hymn "Sing with all the saints in glory"
(originally "Sing with all the sons of glory")
As sung in the service, the words are:
"Sing with all the saints in glory, sing the resurrection song!
Death and sorrow, earth’s dark story, to the former days belong.
All around the clouds are breaking, soon the storms of time shall cease;
In God’s likeness we, awaken, knowing the everlasting peace.
"O what glory, far exceeding all that eye has yet perceived!
Holiest hearts, for ages pleading, never that full joy conceived.
God has promised, Christ prepares it, there on high our welcome waits.
Every humble spirit shares it; Christ has passed th’eternal gates.."
--
Respectfully,
Sine Nomine
If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with
everyone. (Romans 12:18)
To reply via e-mail, remove -nospamplease- from address.
Sumbuny
"Sine Nomine" <Sine.nomine@-nospamplease-att.net> wrote in message
news:ulDzc.18280$Di3...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Thanks for sharing the words used at this service....Ode to Joy is one of my
favorite songs (I used it at my wedding), and it always gives me goosbumps,
even without lyrics. These verses are very apropos for a funeral.
Buny
Sine Nomine
-- snip --
> Thanks for sharing the words used at this service
-- snip --
My pleasure.
--
Respectfully,
Sine Nomine
Media vita in morte sumus:
quem quærimus adiutorem,
nisi te Domine?
Elbert Wall
> "Sumbuny" <IGNORETH...@cox.net> wrote in message
> news:%m_zc.1071$r84.845@lakeread06...
>
> -- snip --
>
>
>>Thanks for sharing the words used at this service
>
>
> -- snip --
>
> My pleasure.
>
OK, now ...
What was that absolutely gorgeous piece the orchestra played while
Ray-Gun was being carried out of the Cathedral? I'd love to add it to
my collection of CDs. I've been scanning the Hymnal to see if it's one
of ours, with no success so far.
And in reviewing my TiVo (don't forget to order TiVo for yourself!) of
the CNN broadcast, I noticed that a few people in the congregation knew
how to behave in an Episcopal church. They bowed as the cross passed
them. Nice to see that a few of us were there.
And I was also pleased at the enormous compliments CNN gave us on the
conduct of the funeral and the beauty of the church. With so many vile
ceremonies being held in buildings that would serve better as bowling
alleys, it's refreshing to see that some people still think a church
should look like a church, and a congregation should still show some
reverence. CNN remarked that if nothing else, the US at least knows how
to do a state funeral.
Priscilla Ballou
Elbert Wall <ew...@ipa.netnopam> wrote:
> And in reviewing my TiVo (don't forget to order TiVo for yourself!) of
> the CNN broadcast, I noticed that a few people in the congregation knew
> how to behave in an Episcopal church. They bowed as the cross passed
> them. Nice to see that a few of us were there.
Bowing when the cross passes is by no means a universal practice among
Episcopalians. I would hazard a guess that at my church we have about a
50% cross-bow rate. I don't do it, myself.
Priscilla
--
"This religion [Christianity] isn't for sissies." - my friend Jane
"Being in the church is sometimes like doing the Bunny Hop."
- my same friend Jane
Sine Nomine
-- snip --
> What was that absolutely gorgeous piece the orchestra played while
> Ray-Gun was being carried out of the Cathedral? I'd love to add it to
> my collection of CDs. I've been scanning the Hymnal to see if it's one
> of ours, with no success so far.
Former President Reagan's recessional was by Nick Glennie-Smith from the
score of the Mel Gibson vehicle "We Were Soldiers." The arrangement uses a
motif that seems to appear (haven't seen the movie) throughout the film.
The End Credits include the hymn "Mansions Of The Lord" by Randall Wallace,
who adapted the original book for the screenplay and also directed the movie
and appears to be the source of the performance at the end of the service.
You can find a somewhat inaccurate document on the service music for this
event at this link:
http://www.cathedral.org/cathedral/pdfs/servicemusic040611.pdf
It does have the benefit of giving all the prelude music as well as the
music for the service proper, and it includes the words of all sung pieces.
> And in reviewing my TiVo (don't forget to order TiVo for yourself!)
Um, not so long as it costs so much (it ain't the hardware, it's the
subscription that bugs me). I will continue to use VCR tapes with the
intention of transferring them to DVD when I upgrade my computer (someday).
> of
> the CNN broadcast, I noticed that a few people in the congregation knew
> how to behave in an Episcopal church. They bowed as the cross passed
> them. Nice to see that a few of us were there.
I always thought this a rather high church devotional gesture. I did so
since, as a former RC I was quite comfortable with this kind of ritual, but
I have never been in an Episcopal church where this was a universal
practice. Now, that Episcopal Monastery I attended for some years in
Denver, THAT's a different story altogether.....
> And I was also pleased at the enormous compliments CNN gave us on the
> conduct of the funeral and the beauty of the church. With so many vile
> ceremonies being held in buildings that would serve better as bowling
> alleys, it's refreshing to see that some people still think a church
> should look like a church, and a congregation should still show some
> reverence.
Well, it does depend on what you think a church should look like to begin
with, I would guess. I believe I took quite a bit longer than even this
country has been in existence for buildings that even slightly resemble the
Cathedral Church of St. Peter and St. Paul to appear (about one-and-a-half
millenium, I am guessing). I am more a fan of "Grace Cathedral" in San
Francisco, but I no longer enjoy their services. The National Cathedral
certainly does lend itself to the pomp desired for such an event.
> CNN remarked that if nothing else, the US at least knows how
> to do a state funeral.
Well, in this case, at least. Personally, I taped the C-SPAN coverage to
avoid the "talk, don't listen" approach to church service coverage.
--
Respectfully,
Sine Nomine
If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with
everyone. (Romans 12:18)
To reply via e-mail, remove -nospamplease- from address.
Sumbuny
"Priscilla Ballou" <vze2...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:vze23t8n-57F820...@news.verizon.net...
> In article <WjgAc.4089$w07....@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
> Elbert Wall <ew...@ipa.netnopam> wrote:
>
> > And in reviewing my TiVo (don't forget to order TiVo for yourself!) of
> > the CNN broadcast, I noticed that a few people in the congregation knew
> > how to behave in an Episcopal church. They bowed as the cross passed
> > them. Nice to see that a few of us were there.
>
> Bowing when the cross passes is by no means a universal practice among
> Episcopalians. I would hazard a guess that at my church we have about a
> 50% cross-bow rate. I don't do it, myself.
IIRC, bowing is an Eastern sign of respect (after spending 3 years on
Okinawa in the early '90s, I got in the habit myself for a while! <G>)
Considering the mentality of Jesus' culture (oriental, not occidental), it
would not be unusual for those in the Christian churches to bow (even
slightly) as a sign of respect.
Buny
Elbert Wall
> "Elbert Wall" <ew...@ipa.netnopam> wrote in message
> news:WjgAc.4089$w07....@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
>
> Um, not so long as it costs so much (it ain't the hardware, it's the
> subscription that bugs me). I will continue to use VCR tapes with the
> intention of transferring them to DVD when I upgrade my computer (someday).
I paid $100 for installation and I pay an extra $4.99 a month to DirecTV
for the TiVo service. I think it's money well spent.
Thanks for the info on the music.
Priscilla H Ballou
Oh, I bow to the Table or to someone who is bowing to me (like before and
after then incense me), but just not as the cross passes. Doesn't
compute with me.
Priscilla
--
"Come to Planet Earth! Watch people with brains not use them! Several
shows daily! Free admittance!" Keera Ann Fox in alt.support.menopause
Priscilla H Ballou
>I paid $100 for installation and I pay an extra $4.99 a month to DirecTV
>for the TiVo service. I think it's money well spent.
If I weren't interested in receiving local stations, I might go with
DirecTV and TiVo, but I am, so I'm not.
Sine Nomine
The cost is a bit more expensive right now outside of the DirectTV package.
TiVo will probably become a bundled part of digital Cable eventually. I am
not really an early adapter.
> Thanks for the info on the music.
You betcha! 8^)
Elbert Wall
> If I weren't interested in receiving local stations, I might go with
> DirecTV and TiVo, but I am, so I'm not.
Gotcha covered. I get all the Memphis stations: 3, 5, 10, 13, 24 and
30. The only things I don't get are 1) the Little Rock stations and 2)
local radar composite from The Weather Channel. That last is because I
live out in the woods and they can't tell which market I belong to,
though they should default to the Memphis market.
All this for about what I was paying my cable "provider."
I chose CNN for the coverage because a) I trusted them and b) I don't
know no better.
Anyway, I think I'm going to burn a DVD with just the coverage from when
the hearse arrives at the Cathedral until they put Ronnie back in the
hearse. That's just under two hours and will fit nicely on a standard
play DVD.
Full disclosure: I couldn't stand Reagan, right-winger that I am. But
he had a hell of a going-away party. I want one just like that.
Elbert Wall
> Oh, I bow to the Table or to someone who is bowing to me (like before and
> after then incense me), but just not as the cross passes. Doesn't
> compute with me.
I guess Calvary is "higher" than your church. I take my cues from the
choir and clergy. They all bow
1) when a cross passes
2) at the mention of the Trinity during the Doxology
3) at the mention of the incarnation in the Creed
4) when passing across the center of the church
5) when entering my pew, if I have not observed 4)
6) when leaving my pew for communion
I also bow at any mention of Christ's name during the rite, and any time
that crossing myself is impractical. I do not bow when entering the church.
I noticed on reviewing RR's funeral that most of the congregation
crossed themselves when his coffin passed on entering the church.
Crossing is a whole 'nother animal.
Elbert Wall
... some idiocies.
I see that I got lost in my own train of thought.
Matthew Weber
Elbert Wall wrote:
Priscilla H Ballou wrote:> Oh, I bow to the Table or to someone who is bowing to me (like before and
> after then incense me), but just not as the cross passes. Doesn't
> compute with me.I guess Calvary is "higher" than your church. I take my cues from the
choir and clergy. They all bow1) when a cross passes
2) at the mention of the Trinity during the Doxology
3) at the mention of the incarnation in the Creed
Most people in my church genuflect here.
4) when passing across the center of the church
It's customary to bow to the altar in this case; one also genuflects to the reserved Sacrament.
5) when entering my pew, if I have not observed 4)
6) when leaving my pew for communionI also bow at any mention of Christ's name during the rite,
The Catholic tradition (whence this comes) is that one should bow at any mention of the Holy Name (i.e. Jesus). In true nit-picking Tridentine fashion, the title "Christ" by itself does not rate a bow.
There are also odd places in the rubrics where bowing or genuflecting
is done; I think there's a point in the Alleluia for Pentecost where everyone's
supposed to genuflect. Fortescue's Ceremonies of the Roman Rite
is a very interesting exposition of exactly what is supposed to happen
when, in very minute detail.
--
Matthew Weber
Curatorial Assistant
Music Library
University of California, Berkeley
Wisdom excelleth folly, as far as light excelleth darkness.
The Holy Bible (The Old Testament): _Ecclesiastes; or,
The Preacher_ 2:13
Priscilla H Ballou
Huh? I thought it was interesting. Don't say mean things about my friend
Elbert!
Elbert Wall
>
> Elbert Wall wrote:
>
>> I guess Calvary is "higher" than your church. I take my cues from the
>> choir and clergy. They all bow
>>
>> 1) when a cross passes
>> 2) at the mention of the Trinity during the Doxology
>> 3) at the mention of the incarnation in the Creed
>>
> Most people in my church genuflect here.
We say the Creed in the pews. How do you get on one knee there? Or do
you just sort of curtsy?
>>
>> 4) when passing across the center of the church
>
> It's customary to bow to the altar in this case; one also genuflects to
> the reserved Sacrament.
>
>>
>> 5) when entering my pew, if I have not observed 4)
>> 6) when leaving my pew for communion
>>
>> I also bow at any mention of Christ's name during the rite,
>>
> The Catholic tradition (whence this comes) is that one should bow at any
> mention of the Holy Name (i.e. Jesus). In true nit-picking Tridentine
> fashion, the title "Christ" by itself does not rate a bow.
True. I misspoke.
> There are also odd places in the rubrics where bowing or genuflecting is
> done; I think there's a point in the Alleluia for Pentecost where
> everyone's supposed to genuflect. Fortescue's Ceremonies of the Roman
> Rite is a very interesting exposition of exactly what is supposed to
> happen when, in very minute detail.
One of our vergers crosses himself during the Prayers of the People when
the prayer is for the dead. And I have a good friend who gets on one
knee and crosses himself when entering the pew.
We recently installed the stations of the cross, though I had to work
last Good Friday and missed the ceremony. Don't know what they did.
Matthew Weber
Elbert Wall wrote:
> Matthew Weber wrote:
>
> We say the Creed in the pews. How do you get on one knee there? Or do
> you just sort of curtsy?
>
We have benches. :) The older members of the congregation just bow, though
(and we sing the Creed, btw).
>
>
> One of our vergers crosses himself during the Prayers of the People when
> the prayer is for the dead.
It seems to be traditional to do so at the phrase "May the souls of all the
faithful departed, through the mercy of God, rest in peace."
> And I have a good friend who gets on one
> knee and crosses himself when entering the pew.
>
This is a gesture toward the reserved Sacrament. You genuflect to anyone you
owe allegiance to; in this case, the Lord of Creation.
Hugh Beyer
news:40D70574...@library.berkeley.edu:
>> And I have a good friend who gets on one
>> knee and crosses himself when entering the pew.
>>
>
> This is a gesture toward the reserved Sacrament. You genuflect to
> anyone you owe allegiance to; in this case, the Lord of Creation.
>
But lots of people do this in Episcopal churches where, by rule, there is no
reserved sacrement.
Hugh
--
Saying evolution proves that God doesn't exist makes as much sense as saying
hammers prove that carpenters don't exist.
Elbert Wall
> But lots of people do this in Episcopal churches where, by rule, there is no
> reserved sacrement.
Well, sorta. Our reserved sacrament is put into small boxes to be taken
by LEMs to what we used to call "the shut-ins." The commissioning of
the LEMs is a short bit right at the end of the Eucharist.
And the aumbry might contain reserved sacrament, especially between
Maundy Thursday and Holy Saturday.
Priscilla Ballou
Elbert Wall <ew...@ipa.netnopam> wrote:
What's the difference between an aumbry and a tabernacle?
Priscilla
Gabby
Sacred Chrism & Oil of the Sick)
Gabby
Brian J Dawson
While the service did take place in a ECUSA Cathedral it was ecumenical and
hence not a Eucharist. (I assume from this post it wasn't as I did not view
it on TV). When members of the ECUSA die we have the Eucharist at the
funeral. The Eucharist is the MOST important rite of our church.
I have seen many ECUSA funerals. Both as a acolyte darning my youth and for
my parents. The Eucharist is ALWAYS celebrated. Sometimes it can be a low
service that depends on the family of the deceased but it is always a
Eucharist!
Also you mentioned the responses were close but not the same as the
Catholic. While a liberal I prefer the old english rite that we used prior
to the late 1970's. After that our church introduced modern english for rite
2. However in rite 2 we have about four or five (someone correct me here)
subrites. It just seems that no one wants to have ritual anchors anymore. So
the responses vary with it being Rite 1 (old english) or rite 2 (modern
english) with several subvarieties.
Brian J Dawson
Brian J Dawson
"Sumbuny" <IGNORETH...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:e1pzc.7031$qg.6426@lakeread06...
Priscilla Ballou
"Brian J Dawson" <nos...@spiderfree.com> wrote:
> I have seen many ECUSA funerals. Both as a acolyte darning my youth and for
> my parents. The Eucharist is ALWAYS celebrated. Sometimes it can be a low
> service that depends on the family of the deceased but it is always a
> Eucharist!
Nope. Not true. There are definitely ECUSA funerals which are not
Eucharist.
Priscilla
Priscilla Ballou
"Gabby" <Lavol...@msn.com> wrote:
I should have specified -- in the Episcopal Church. Elbert and I are
both Episcopalians.
But since you raise the topic of the RCC, there are churches with *both*
tabernacle and aumbry? The first for the reserved sacrament and the
other for oils?
Priscilla
Gabby
> In article <10df7o4...@corp.supernews.com>,
> "Gabby" <Lavol...@msn.com> wrote:
>
> > "Priscilla Ballou" <vze2...@verizon.net> wrote in message
> > > > Elbert Wall <ew...@ipa.netnopam> wrote:
> > > > And the aumbry might contain reserved sacrament, especially between
> > > > Maundy Thursday and Holy Saturday.
> > > What's the difference between an aumbry and a tabernacle?
> > In the Catholic Church the ambry holds the Sacred Oils (Oil of
Catechumen,
> > Sacred Chrism & Oil of the Sick)
>
> I should have specified -- in the Episcopal Church. Elbert and I are
> both Episcopalians.
>
> But since you raise the topic of the RCC, there are churches with *both*
> tabernacle and aumbry? The first for the reserved sacrament and the
> other for oils?
Yes. Many churches now display the oils in a glass fronted ambry, usually
close to the Baptismal Font. The Tabernacle holds the Blessed Sacrament
either in the Sanctuary or in a Reservation Chapel.
Gabby
Priscilla Ballou
"Gabby" <Lavol...@msn.com> wrote:
> "Priscilla Ballou" <vze2...@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:vze23t8n-2210F8...@news.verizon.net...
> > In article <10df7o4...@corp.supernews.com>,
> > "Gabby" <Lavol...@msn.com> wrote:
> >
> > > "Priscilla Ballou" <vze2...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> > > > > Elbert Wall <ew...@ipa.netnopam> wrote:
> > > > > And the aumbry might contain reserved sacrament, especially between
> > > > > Maundy Thursday and Holy Saturday.
>
> > > > What's the difference between an aumbry and a tabernacle?
>
> > > In the Catholic Church the ambry holds the Sacred Oils (Oil of
> Catechumen,
> > > Sacred Chrism & Oil of the Sick)
> >
> > I should have specified -- in the Episcopal Church. Elbert and I are
> > both Episcopalians.
> >
> > But since you raise the topic of the RCC, there are churches with *both*
> > tabernacle and aumbry? The first for the reserved sacrament and the
> > other for oils?
>
> Yes. Many churches now display the oils in a glass fronted ambry, usually
> close to the Baptismal Font. The Tabernacle holds the Blessed Sacrament
> either in the Sanctuary or in a Reservation Chapel.
Thanks. I didn't know that before.
Priscilla
Elbert Wall
> Hi Sumbury,
> While the service did take place in a ECUSA Cathedral it was ecumenical and
> hence not a Eucharist. (I assume from this post it wasn't as I did not view
> it on TV). When members of the ECUSA die we have the Eucharist at the
> funeral. The Eucharist is the MOST important rite of our church.
>
> I have seen many ECUSA funerals. Both as a acolyte darning my youth and for
> my parents. The Eucharist is ALWAYS celebrated. Sometimes it can be a low
> service that depends on the family of the deceased but it is always a
> Eucharist!
>
> Also you mentioned the responses were close but not the same as the
> Catholic. While a liberal I prefer the old english rite that we used prior
> to the late 1970's. After that our church introduced modern english for rite
> 2. However in rite 2 we have about four or five (someone correct me here)
> subrites. It just seems that no one wants to have ritual anchors anymore. So
> the responses vary with it being Rite 1 (old english) or rite 2 (modern
> english) with several subvarieties.
Episcopal Rite I is vastly different from Rite II, in more than just
language. Rite I includes a recitation of the Decalog, and its
principal speaker is the priest. Rite II has much more congregational
participation and has four official variants, the Eucharistic Prayers A
through D.
Rite I was intended to be used once a month, and Rite II weekly.
Finally, Rite I is used at some impossibly early hour, clearly with a
view to discouraging people from attending.
And you are correct: Some people find regularity stupifying; I suspect
the clergy are most susceptible to this boredom.
Matthew Weber
Hugh Beyer wrote:
> Matthew Weber <mwe...@library.berkeley.edu> wrote in
> news:40D70574...@library.berkeley.edu:
>
> >> And I have a good friend who gets on one
> >> knee and crosses himself when entering the pew.
> >>
> >
> > This is a gesture toward the reserved Sacrament. You genuflect to
> > anyone you owe allegiance to; in this case, the Lord of Creation.
> >
>
> But lots of people do this in Episcopal churches where, by rule, there is no
> reserved sacrement.
>
>
While I won't say they're "wrong," the idea behind genuflection is that you bend
the knee to the tabernacle and what's in it. The altar (if it's in a different
place than the tabernacle is) receives a bow when you cross the sanctuary. I
have noticed, especially with RC folks, that the two have become conflated so
that often people genuflect toward the altar regardless of whether the
tabernacle is there or not, and whether or not there even is a tabernacle. I
like the distinction myself, but on the other hand, this is how customs come
into being and change.
Sumbuny
"Matthew Weber" <mwe...@library.berkeley.edu> wrote in message
news:40D9A6AE...@library.berkeley.edu...
>
>
> Hugh Beyer wrote:
>
> > Matthew Weber <mwe...@library.berkeley.edu> wrote in
> > news:40D70574...@library.berkeley.edu:
> >
> > >> And I have a good friend who gets on one
> > >> knee and crosses himself when entering the pew.
> > >>
> > >
> > > This is a gesture toward the reserved Sacrament. You genuflect to
> > > anyone you owe allegiance to; in this case, the Lord of Creation.
> > >
> >
> > But lots of people do this in Episcopal churches where, by rule, there
is no
> > reserved sacrement.
> >
> >
>
> While I won't say they're "wrong," the idea behind genuflection is that
you bend
> the knee to the tabernacle and what's in it. The altar (if it's in a
different
> place than the tabernacle is) receives a bow when you cross the sanctuary.
I
> have noticed, especially with RC folks, that the two have become conflated
so
> that often people genuflect toward the altar regardless of whether the
> tabernacle is there or not, and whether or not there even is a tabernacle.
I
> like the distinction myself, but on the other hand, this is how customs
come
> into being and change.
<nodding> You genuflect if the Eucharist is in the tabernacle (no
genuflecting on Good Friday, when the Eucharist is removed and the
tabernacle doors left open to show it is empty)....if the Eucharist is out
of the tabernacle (such as when present in the monstrance on the altar for
adoration), one does not merely genuflect, but one goes down on *both* knees
before entering the pew (or upon exiting pew).
Buny
Gabby
>
> "Matthew Weber" <mwe...@library.berkeley.edu> wrote in message
> news:40D9A6AE...@library.berkeley.edu...
> I
> > have noticed, especially with RC folks, that the two have become
conflated
> so
> > that often people genuflect toward the altar regardless of whether the
> > tabernacle is there or not, and whether or not there even is a
tabernacle.
> I
> > like the distinction myself, but on the other hand, this is how customs
> come
> > into being and change.
>
>
> <nodding> You genuflect if the Eucharist is in the tabernacle (no
> genuflecting on Good Friday, when the Eucharist is removed and the
> tabernacle doors left open to show it is empty)....if the Eucharist is out
> of the tabernacle (such as when present in the monstrance on the altar for
> adoration), one does not merely genuflect, but one goes down on *both*
knees
> before entering the pew (or upon exiting pew).
The rubrics no longer call for a double genuflection on Holy Thursday. At
least that's what my ORDO tells me. Is it still done at any other time?
Gabby