A GOD CHALLENGE
Bill M
challenge to God worshippers to produce OBJECTIVE VERIFIABLE
EVIDENCE that their God actually exists.
I'm still waiting!
--
Bill M
Polycarp
I'm sure you've heard the "Unmoved Mover" by Aristotle even before
Jesus Christ was born. It was followed by Aquinas in his "Cosmological
Argument." Then there is the arguments by Anselm and Descartes.
The argument from universal consent is a good one too.
Over the years, archaeology have presented us with amazing findings
surrounding Jesus Christ, like the passage from Josephus about his
cousins, John the Baptist and James the Just. The extant writings of
Pliny the Younger, Tacitus, Suetonius and others are verifiable as
well.
Do you believe the existence of Alexander the Great, Augustus Caesar
and/or Pontius Pilate?
Andre Lieven
> On Oct 25, 11:04 am, "Bill M" <wm...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
> > For over five years now I have been publishing in newsgroups a
>
> > challenge to God worshippers to produce OBJECTIVE VERIFIABLE
>
> > EVIDENCE that their God actually exists.
>
> > I'm still waiting!
>
> I'm sure you've heard the "Unmoved Mover" by Aristotle even before
> Jesus Christ was born. It was followed by Aquinas in his "Cosmological
> Argument." Then there is the arguments by Anselm and Descartes.
>
> The argument from universal consent is a good one too.
None of which is actual evidnece. Do keep that in mind, when you next
go in front of a judge...
> Over the years, archaeology have presented us with amazing findings
> surrounding Jesus Christ, like the passage from Josephus about his
> cousins, John the Baptist and James the Just. The extant writings of
> Pliny the Younger, Tacitus, Suetonius and others are verifiable as
> well.
Well, such "findings" are certainly "amazing", in that anyone trying
to
claim that people who wrote about the worshippers of a fictional guy
existed, which said worshippers surely did.
But, to try to use that as "evidence" that the being being worshipped
existed also means that the Harry Potter books PROVE that Lord
Voldemort exists.
So, you flunk Basic Logic 101. Again.
> Do you believe the existence of Alexander the Great, Augustus Caesar
> and/or Pontius Pilate?
IOW, you have NO actual evidence for your claims.
Thanks for proving, once again, that atheism is the rational view.
Andre
Bill M
"Polycarp" <Simon.P...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:29f76689-4688-411c...@p23g2000vbl.googlegroups.com...
Just supplying opinions!
Frankie Lee
***Then you must ignorant that God Himself doesn't wish to prove His
existence to you,for the Bible said so,in Romans.
Free Lunch
<leea...@yahoo.com> wrote in alt.atheism:
Why would I believe your interpretation of that book?
Yap
> On Oct 25, 11:04 am, "Bill M" <wm...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
> > For over five years now I have been publishing in newsgroups a
>
> > challenge to God worshippers to produce OBJECTIVE VERIFIABLE
>
> > EVIDENCE that their God actually exists.
>
> > I'm still waiting!
>
> I'm sure you've heard the "Unmoved Mover" by Aristotle even before
> Jesus Christ was born. It was followed by Aquinas in his "Cosmological
> Argument." Then there is the arguments by Anselm and Descartes.
They claimed they could walk on water, and could speak to snakes, and
also part the water channel.
But when modern men did these acts, you called them MAGICIANS.
Can you tell us the difference.
>
> The argument from universal consent is a good one too.
>
> Over the years, archaeology have presented us with amazing findings
> surrounding Jesus Christ, like the passage from Josephus about his
> cousins, John the Baptist and James the Just. The extant writings of
> Pliny the Younger, Tacitus, Suetonius and others are verifiable as
> well.
dead and events.
They remained past and have no relevance to current human survival.
This Jesus thing belongs to a tiny land in the Middle-east, of no
slightest significance to elsewhere at all.
Or, do you think the words of the Indian by the name of "Apache" in
1809 in American had a profound effect in the people of US now?
>
> Do you believe the existence of Alexander the Great, Augustus Caesar
> and/or Pontius Pilate?
Empire, Jerjer King of the Ottoman Empire and the Thor god of Greek.
What is more important is a god that can prevent all the numerous
disasters happening in this world, and help to eliminate the poverty
we have seen in Sub-Indian and African continent.
The end of a human life is a natural event, and his contribution is
remembered. There is no second life.
That's all.
Yap
And your god spoke in Roman?
Your scripture is a direct evidence of the evilness of a god you
worshiped.
Frankie Lee
> On Sun, 25 Oct 2009 17:44:59 -0700 (PDT), Frankie Lee
>
> >On Oct 26, 2:04 am, "Bill M" <wm...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> >> For over five years now I have been publishing in newsgroups a
>
> >> challenge to God worshippers to produce OBJECTIVE VERIFIABLE
>
> >> EVIDENCE that their God actually exists.
>
> >> I'm still waiting!
>
> >> --
> >> Bill M
>
> >***Then you must ignorant that God Himself doesn't wish to prove His
> >existence to you,for the Bible said so,in Romans.
>
> Why would I believe your interpretation of that book?
**You need not.
Romans 1:19 ..because that which is known about God is evident WITHIN
THEM;for God made it evident to them.
Frankie Lee
Romans 1:19...that which is known about God is evident within them,for
God made it evident to them.
The fool has said there is no God.
The Devils also believe in God,and tremble.
Would you want to prove to obnoxious folks?Would you want to show the
truths to him who doesn't want it?You see the Bible is full of wisdom.
bob young
Polycarp wrote:
> On Oct 25, 11:04 am, "Bill M" <wm...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> > For over five years now I have been publishing in newsgroups a
> >
> > challenge to God worshippers to produce OBJECTIVE VERIFIABLE
> >
> > EVIDENCE that their God actually exists.
> >
> > I'm still waiting!
>
> I'm sure you've heard the "Unmoved Mover" by Aristotle even before
> Jesus Christ was born. It was followed by Aquinas in his "Cosmological
> Argument." Then there is the arguments by Anselm and Descartes.
>
> The argument from universal consent is a good one too.
>
> Over the years, archaeology have presented us with amazing findings
> surrounding Jesus Christ,
Utter Garbage. IF Jesus existed as the son of a god that primitives
claim created everything then his first twenty years from the cradle
would not go unrecorded in that old book of fables which is used to prop
up the belief system.
The reason nothing is found in there is due to the fact that the early
myth writers living around year 300 thought that period didn't matter -
well it matters today
> like the passage from Josephus about his
> cousins, John the Baptist and James the Just.
See above [Oh . . . . . and below]
The Bible is a chaotically cobbled together anthology of disjointed
documents, composed, revised, translated, distorted and 'improved' by
hundreds of anonymous authors, editors and copyists, unknown to us and
mostly unknown to each other, spanning nine centuries. This may explain
some of the sheer strangeness of the Bible. Unfortunately it is the same
weird volume that religious zealots hold up as the inerrant source of our
morals and rules for living.
[Richard Dawkins 'The God Delusion]
bob young
Frankie Lee wrote:
THE FUNNIEST QUOTE I HAVE READ IN MONTHS
OH DEAR. . . . . OH DEAR . . . . . . ROFL
bob young
Frankie Lee wrote:
> On Oct 26, 9:26 am, Yap <hhyaps...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Oct 26, 8:44 am, Frankie Lee <leeahk...@yahoo.com> wrote:> On Oct 26, 2:04 am, "Bill M" <wm...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> >
> > > > For over five years now I have been publishing in newsgroups a
> >
> > > > challenge to God worshippers to produce OBJECTIVE VERIFIABLE
> >
> > > > EVIDENCE that their God actually exists.
> >
> > > > I'm still waiting!
> >
> > > > --
> > > > Bill M
> >
> > > ***Then you must ignorant that God Himself doesn't wish to prove His
> > > existence to you,for the Bible said so,in Romans.
> >
> > Who had said that? You?
> > And your god spoke in Roman?
> > Your scripture is a direct evidence of the evilness of a god you
> > worshiped.
>
> Romans 1:19...that which is known about God is evident within them,for
> God made it evident to them.
> The fool has said there is no God.
> The Devils also believe in God,and tremble.
The Bible is a chaotically cobbled together anthology of disjointed documents, composed, revised, translated, distorted and
'improved' by hundreds of anonymous authors, editors and copyists, unknown to us and mostly unknown to each other, spanning
nine centuries. This may explain some of the sheer strangeness of the Bible. Unfortunately it is the same weird volume that
religious zealots hold up as the inerrant source of our morals and rules for living.
[Richard Dawkins 'The God Delusion]
>
>
Robibnikoff
"Frankie Lee" <leea...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:b105968c-58d0-4c70...@f18g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
Failed English class, eh hon?
--
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
BAAWA Knight
#1557
Sanity's Little Helper
As our local fly-pitcher used to say "Don't ask me where I got it, and I
won't ask you where you got the money".
--
David Silverman
aa #2208
Defender of Civilisation
"Christian" (n). A person who views insulting non-Christians as a sacred
duity, and any response as persecution
Not authentic without this signature.
Sanity's Little Helper
> On Oct 26, 9:13�am, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote:
So: In order to believe in God, you have to be mentally ill. NOW I get it.
Sanity's Little Helper
> On Oct 26, 9:26�am, Yap <hhyaps...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Oct 26, 8:44�am, Frankie Lee <leeahk...@yahoo.com> wrote:> On Oct 26, 2:04�am, "Bill M" <wm...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>>
>>> > For over five years now I have been publishing in newsgroups a
>>
>>> > challenge to God worshippers to produce OBJECTIVE VERIFIABLE
>>
>>> > EVIDENCE �that their God actually exists.
>>
>>> > I'm still waiting!
>>
>>> > --
>>> > Bill M
>>
>>> ***Then you must ignorant that God Himself doesn't wish to prove His
>>> existence to you,for the Bible said so,in Romans.
>>
>> Who had said that? You?
>> And your god spoke in Roman?
>> Your scripture is a direct evidence of the evilness of a god you
>> worshiped.
>
> Romans 1:19...that which is known about God is evident within them,for
> God made it evident to them.
> The fool has said there is no God.
> The Devils also believe in God,and tremble.
>
> Would you want to prove to obnoxious folks
<SMACK!> We already know what you think of us, so why don't you just fuck
off and die? If we can't be persuaded, why dwell on the fact?
Sanity's Little Helper
Bill, the whole point of belief is that it requires no evidence,
god-botherers don't want to know the truth, they aren't interested in what
is, or is not true. The real question that needs to be asked is: Why not?
Yap
> On Oct 26, 9:26 am, Yap <hhyaps...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Oct 26, 8:44 am, Frankie Lee <leeahk...@yahoo.com> wrote:> On Oct 26, 2:04 am, "Bill M" <wm...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
> > > > For over five years now I have been publishing in newsgroups a
>
> > > > challenge to God worshippers to produce OBJECTIVE VERIFIABLE
>
> > > > EVIDENCE that their God actually exists.
>
> > > > I'm still waiting!
>
> > > > --
> > > > Bill M
>
> > > ***Then you must ignorant that God Himself doesn't wish to prove His
> > > existence to you,for the Bible said so,in Romans.
>
> > Who had said that? You?
> > And your god spoke in Roman?
> > Your scripture is a direct evidence of the evilness of a god you
> > worshiped.
>
> Romans 1:19...that which is known about God is evident within them,for
> God made it evident to them.
> The fool has said there is no God.
have a god to fight for everything.
> The Devils also believe in God,and tremble.
life of your.
>
> Would you want to prove to obnoxious folks?Would you want to show the
> truths to him who doesn't want it?You see the Bible is full of wisdom.
party.
Since when do human need a god to prosper?
Your willingness to retreat to cave life is noted.
Les Hellawell
Are we expected to accept what they say just on their say-so?
--
Les Hellawell
Greetings from:
YORKSHIRE - The White Rose County
Frankie Lee
Reply: So nobody should accept nobody's opinion,right?You figure it
out yourself.
Frankie Lee
***The Bible is a historical records.Must it be dishonest just like
you guys?If Solomon had 1000 wives,it will state exactly it was.
The evilness of those people as describe in the Bible,doesn't meant
the Bible is evil.The Bible is history,inspired by God to tell exactly
how and why it happened.
Frankie Lee
> It is an ancient Frankie Lee <leeahk...@yahoo.com>, and he posteth:
***You hope to be seen as a fruitcake,showed evidence how corrupt your
minds were,so as to prove what an idiot you have been always.But I
question,what for?
Frankie Lee
> It is an ancient Frankie Lee <leeahk...@yahoo.com>, and he posteth:
***You have convince all readers of your evil mental state,so what on
earth are you doing here?Trying to discredit yourself and help my
positive message to be even more positive???
Frankie Lee
> It is an ancient Frankie Lee <leeahk...@yahoo.com>, and he posteth:
**So are you asking for it?
Frankie Lee
> "Frankie Lee" <leeahk...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
You:Failed English class, eh hon?
Me: You already shown no interest to write properly,so why are you
yakking?
Frankie Lee
***You mean you believed those words from that nut?Are you Ok?
Jimbo
> On Oct 25, 11:04 am, "Bill M" <wm...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
> > For over five years now I have been publishing in newsgroups a
>
> > challenge to God worshippers to produce OBJECTIVE VERIFIABLE
>
> > EVIDENCE that their God actually exists.
>
> > I'm still waiting!
>
> Jesus Christ was born. It was followed by Aquinas in his "Cosmological
> Argument." Then there is the arguments by Anselm and Descartes.
>
None of which meets the definition of objective evidence.
> The argument from universal consent is a good one too.
>
> Over the years, archaeology have presented us with amazing findings
> surrounding Jesus Christ, like the passage from Josephus
Josephus was born after Christ's death, and his writings were, at
best, 3rd hand information.
about his
> cousins, John the Baptist and James the Just. The extant writings of
> Pliny the Younger, Tacitus, Suetonius and others are verifiable as
> well.
>
Again, not contemporaries of Jesus Christ.
Les Hellawell
Already did thanks.
And your answer to the question is:
(hint it should be either 'yes' or 'no')
If 'yes' kindly explain why.
thomas p.
That is your belief. It is not shared by atheists for obvious reasons. Why
would you think quoting the Bible to people who do not accept the existence
of a god would be a useful thing to do?
thomas p.
We have. Why do you misrepresent what was said?
thomas p.
I wonder if you know why the above sentence is so funny.
Christopher A. Lee
wrote:
>Frankie Lee wrote:
>> The evilness of those people as describe in the Bible,doesn't meant
>> the Bible is evil.The Bible is history,inspired by God to tell exactly
>> how and why it happened.
>
>That is your belief. It is not shared by atheists for obvious reasons. Why
>would you think quoting the Bible to people who do not accept the existence
>of a god would be a useful thing to do?
And they wonder why we think they're idiots.
Snowman
The extant writings of Pliny the Younger, Tacitus, Suetonius and
others are verifiable as
well.
Again, not contemporaries of Jesus Christ.
---
Tacitus and Suetonius were not contemporaries of Claudius or Caligula
either,
but we trust their information about them.
thomas p.
They are not the basis for our knowledge that Claudius and Caligula existed,
nor do we believe that either one of them were divine no matter what the
Roman Senate may have decided.
Christopher A. Lee
wrote:
>Snowman wrote:
>> On Oct 26, 9:33 am, Jimbo <ckdbig...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> The extant writings of Pliny the Younger, Tacitus, Suetonius and
>> others are verifiable as
>> well.
Do these imbeciles even bother to read this alleged "evidence" before
they post it?
>> Again, not contemporaries of Jesus Christ.
>> ---
>> Tacitus and Suetonius were not contemporaries of Claudius or Caligula
>> either, but we trust their information about them.
>
>They are not the basis for our knowledge that Claudius and Caligula existed,
>nor do we believe that either one of them were divine no matter what the
>Roman Senate may have decided.
And none of them even mention Jesus.
What makes so many Christians so stupid?
Frankie Lee
> On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 16:18:23 +0100, "thomas p." <gudl...@yahoo.com>
A***That is your belief. It is not shared by atheists for obvious
reasons. Why
would you think quoting the Bible to people who do not accept the
existence
of a god would be a useful thing to do?
B :And they wonder why we think they're idiots.
-------------------------
**** Frank's reply: (B),Christopher,did you know you interrupted the
questions and called yourself an idiot?Let me show you how.
The question was posed to me.You are deeply into sin,not knowing head
or tail,so exhibit yourself as an idiot so that you will lose
credibility here and there.
Did you know why quoting the Bible verses to people who do not accept
the existence of God is a useful thing?Let me tell you why,since you
are blur, learn something from me.
The biblical verses were from the Lord,the inspired author.Those were
His thoughts,and His words,so He must have really existed.Don't we
need evidence of His existence?If God existed,he must have a
thought,an idea,or word.
Why Albert Einstein praise the Lord Jesus,and we know how he was being
greatly influenced by Lord Jesus,if not for his quotations?
Why did you or any student quote great words from some great man?
Since you always are that blur,and after so many years I have not seen
you improved--ah yes,the last time you are so hurt that you want me
out of your newsgroup... many years ago--
Frankie Lee
***>Frankie Lee wrote:
>> The evilness of those people as describe in the Bible,doesn't meant
>> the Bible is evil.The Bible is history,inspired by God to tell exactly
>> how and why it happened.
>That is your belief. It is not shared by atheists for obvious reasons.
Why
>would you think quoting the Bible to people who do not accept the existence
>of a god would be a useful thing to do?
******It is not shared by atheists for obvious reasons. What are you
saying,"it is my belief"?You mean to tell me that the History of the
Bible must censored the Truths and insert in lies?If King David commit
murders,shall the Bible writer censored it,just like many do to their
biography?
Or do you know what you are saying?
Frankie Lee
**My sentence make you think,or for the unsound guy's mentality they
would dismiss it.
You see,he wrote:""Failed English class, eh hon?"""He want to
criticize my phrase but very unfitting.So he looks like a fool.He
himself use weirdos words.
If he uses proper way to criticize,then at least he sound sane.
Robibnikoff
"Frankie Lee" <leea...@yahoo.com> Babble bullshit.
No answer, eh? Didn't think so. How sadly typical.
Robibnikoff
Old Harley Rider
Frankie Lee wrote:
On Oct 26, 2:04 am, "Bill M" <wm...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
For over five years now I have been publishing in newsgroups a
challenge to God worshippers to produce OBJECTIVE VERIFIABLE
EVIDENCE that their God actually exists.
I'm still waiting!
A lot of people go looking for God in a church. They only find
a sect willing to tell them what they want to hear. And the
sect will gladly help separate them from their money.
Then there are a few people that will diligently and earnestly
seek God, and they will find Him.
Unfortunately and sadly in your case you will have to die to
realize God exists. You'll know then He exists, cause you'll
be standing in front of Him. If you spent as much time seeking
God as you do denying Him, you would have something worthwhile.
Polycarp
> "Polycarp" <Simon.Polyc...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:29f76689-4688-411c...@p23g2000vbl.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Oct 25, 11:04 am, "Bill M" <wm...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> >> For over five years now I have been publishing in newsgroups a
>
> >> challenge to God worshippers to produce OBJECTIVE VERIFIABLE
>
> >> EVIDENCE �that their God actually exists.
>
> >> I'm still waiting!
>
> > Jesus Christ was born. It was followed by Aquinas in his "Cosmological
> > Argument." Then there is the arguments by Anselm and Descartes.
>
>
> > Over the years, archaeology have presented us with amazing findings
> > cousins, John the Baptist and James the Just. The extant writings of
> > Pliny the Younger, Tacitus, Suetonius and others are verifiable as
> > well.
>
> > and/or Pontius Pilate?
>
> Just supplying opinions!
What is your opinion? Do you believe in the existence of Alexander the
Great, Augustus Caesar and/or Pontius Pilate?
Christopher A. Lee
<ronin...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Frankie Lee wrote:
>On Oct 26, 2:04 am, "Bill M" <wm...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>For over five years now I have been publishing in newsgroups a
>challenge to God worshippers to produce OBJECTIVE VERIFIABLE
>EVIDENCE that their God actually exists.
>I'm still waiting!
>
>A lot of people go looking for God in a church. They only find
>a sect willing to tell them what they want to hear. And the
>sect will gladly help separate them from their money.
>
>Then there are a few people that will diligently and earnestly
>seek God, and they will find Him.
What a fucking moron.
Feel free to prove this before rudely and stupidly begging the
question in the real world outside your religion, to people you know
don't share your deluded fantasies.
>Unfortunately and sadly in your case you will have to die to
>realize God exists.
Prove it, liar.
> You'll know then He exists, cause you'll
>be standing in front of Him.
A liar as well as an idiot.
Are you really so stupid you can't grasp that this is merely somebody
else's religious myths and legends?
> If you spent as much time seeking
>God as you do denying Him, you would have something worthwhile.
Nobody is denying anything, liar. BECAUSE IT'S MERELY SOMEBODY ELSE'S
RELIGIOUS BELIEF.
Which word was too long for you?
If you can't prove it, keep your pig-ignorant, stupid bullshit to
yourself.
AND STOP LYING ABOUT THOSE OUTSIDE YOUR RELIGION.
What is it with you sociopaths?
Polycarp
> On Oct 25, 7:17�pm, Polycarp <Simon.Piss...@kook.nutter> oozed lies:
>
> > On Oct 25, 11:04 am, "Bill M" <wm...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
> > > For over five years now I have been publishing in newsgroups a
>
> > > challenge to God worshippers to produce OBJECTIVE VERIFIABLE
>
> > > EVIDENCE �that their God actually exists.
>
> > > I'm still waiting!
>
> > Jesus Christ was born. It was followed by Aquinas in his "Cosmological
> > Argument." Then there is the arguments by Anselm and Descartes.
>
> > The argument from universal consent is a good one too.
>
> go in front of a judge...
In the courts of law, testimonials of witnesses are admissible as far
as I know.
> > Over the years, archaeology have presented us with amazing findings
> > surrounding Jesus Christ, like the passage from Josephus about his
> > cousins, John the Baptist and James the Just. The extant writings of
> > Pliny the Younger, Tacitus, Suetonius and others are verifiable as
> > well.
>
> Well, such "findings" are certainly "amazing", in that anyone trying
> to claim that people who wrote about the worshippers of a fictional guy
> existed, which said worshippers surely did.
>
> But, to try to use that as "evidence" that the being being worshipped
> existed also means that the Harry Potter books PROVE that Lord
> Voldemort exists.
But nobody said in the Harry Potter books that Voldemort is a real
person.
> So, you flunk Basic Logic 101. Again.
I guess that would be you.
> > Do you believe the existence of Alexander the Great, Augustus Caesar
> > and/or Pontius Pilate?
>
> IOW, you have NO actual evidence for your claims.
There are books written about Alexander the Great, Augustus Caesar and
Pontius Pilate. They really exist.
> Thanks for proving, once again, that atheism is the rational view.
I don't think so, you can't even accept that Alexander the Great
existed because I don't have an actual evidence that he existed.
Polycarp
> On Oct 26, 7:17�am, Polycarp <Simon.Polyc...@yahoo.com> wrote:> On Oct 25, 11:04 am, "Bill M" <wm...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
> > > For over five years now I have been publishing in newsgroups a
>
> > > challenge to God worshippers to produce OBJECTIVE VERIFIABLE
>
> > > EVIDENCE �that their God actually exists.
>
> > > I'm still waiting!
>
> > I'm sure you've heard the "Unmoved Mover" by Aristotle even before
> > Jesus Christ was born. It was followed by Aquinas in his "Cosmological
> > Argument." Then there is the arguments by Anselm and Descartes.
>
> They claimed they could walk on water, and could speak to snakes, and
> also part the water channel.
> But when modern men did these acts, you called them MAGICIANS.
> Can you tell us the difference.
I don't know what you're talking about. You wrote "magicians" out of
nowhere. Where did that come from? I didn't even write it.
> > The argument from universal consent is a good one too.
>
> > Over the years, archaeology have presented us with amazing findings
> > surrounding Jesus Christ, like the passage from Josephus about his
> > cousins, John the Baptist and James the Just. The extant writings of
> > Pliny the Younger, Tacitus, Suetonius and others are verifiable as
> > well.
>
> There were a lot of past archaeological findings of past historical
> dead and events.
> They remained past and have no relevance to current human survival.
> This Jesus thing belongs to a tiny land in the Middle-east, of no
> slightest significance to elsewhere at all.
Well, the OP was asking for rational explanation of the existence of
Jesus Christ and I provided them. This Jesus Christ belongs now to
more than 2 billion Christians around the world.
> Or, do you think the words of the Indian by the name of �"Apache" in
> 1809 in American had a profound effect in the people of US now?
Maybe not, but the name and people "Apache" existed. That's the whole
point of the OP.
> > Do you believe the existence of Alexander the Great, Augustus Caesar
> > and/or Pontius Pilate?
>
> Not particularly interesting,
But they existed nevertheless. They were written in books. And
archaelogy also proves that they existed.
> similar to Kuku khan of Mongolian
> Empire, Jerjer King of the Ottoman Empire and the Thor god of Greek.
>
> What is more important is a god that can prevent all the numerous
> disasters happening in this world, and help to eliminate the poverty
> we have seen in Sub-Indian and African continent.
>
> The end of a human life is a natural event, and his contribution is
> remembered. There is no second life.
> That's all.
Polycarp
> Polycarp wrote:
> > On Oct 25, 11:04 am, "Bill M" <wm...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> > > For over five years now I have been publishing in newsgroups a
>
> > > challenge to God worshippers to produce OBJECTIVE VERIFIABLE
>
> > > EVIDENCE �that their God actually exists.
>
> > > I'm still waiting!
>
> > I'm sure you've heard the "Unmoved Mover" by Aristotle even before
> > Jesus Christ was born. It was followed by Aquinas in his "Cosmological
> > Argument." Then there is the arguments by Anselm and Descartes.
>
>
> > Over the years, archaeology have presented us with amazing findings
> > surrounding Jesus Christ,
>
> claim created everything then his first twenty years from the cradle
> would not go unrecorded in that old book of fables which is used to prop
> up the belief system.
>
> The reason nothing is found in there is due to the fact that the early
> myth writers living around year 300 thought that period didn't matter -
> well it matters today
So you don't know that Josephus, Tacitus, Suetonius, Pliny the
Younger, Thallus ,etc were early historians and/or writers who were
not Christians.
> > like the passage from Josephus about his
> > cousins, John the Baptist and James the Just.
>
> See above � � [Oh . . . . . �and below]
Yes, I responded it.
> The Bible is a chaotically cobbled together anthology of disjointed
I wasn't talking about the Bible.
> documents, composed, revised, translated, distorted and 'improved' by
> hundreds of anonymous authors, editors and copyists, unknown to us and
> mostly unknown to each other, spanning nine centuries. �This may explain
> some of the sheer strangeness of the Bible. Unfortunately it is the same
> weird volume that religious zealots hold up as the inerrant source of our
> morals and rules for living.
>
> [Richard Dawkins 'The God Delusion]
>
>
>
> > The extant writings of
> > Pliny the Younger, Tacitus, Suetonius and others are verifiable as
> > well.
>
> > Do you believe the existence of Alexander the Great, Augustus Caesar
> > and/or Pontius Pilate?-
SkyEyes
Well, Old Harley, there are quite a number of ex-christians and ex-
theists of other flavors here on alt.atheism. The fact is, a passel
of us spent many, many years looking for a god. Any god. Know what
we found?
Zip.
Zilch.
Nada.
Tipotallo.
Gar nichts.
Bupkiss.
Not being crazy or masochistic, we stopped looking.
So here's a little morsel for you to chew on, Harley: *if* there is a
god, and *if* it wants me (and every other atheist) to believe in him/
her/it, s/he/it knows *exactly* what each of us would consider to be
adequate evidence of existence. And being omnipotent, s/he/it would
be able to provide that evidence quite easily.
The fact that such evidence is not forthcoming means one of two
things: (1) that a god exists but doesn't much care if we believe in
him/her/it or not; OR (2) that there's no god.
Explanation (2) is simpler and more parsimonious, but the net result
is the same.
Of course, if *you* have any evidence that a god exists, by all means,
please post it here immediately.
And while you're at it, also post evidence that there is such a thing
as a "soul," and that there really *is* an afterlife.
Failing that, please keep your dire threats to yourself. I've had the
shit scared out of me by Jack and Rexella Van Impe, and they did it
*way* better than you do. (Of course, I was 8 years old at the time.
I'm 60 now, and I don't scare very damn easy anymore.)
Brenda Nelson, A.A.#34
BAAWA Knight
EAC Professor of Feline Thermometrics and Cat-Herding
skyeyes nine at cox dot net
Christopher A. Lee
wrote:
>Failing that, please keep your dire threats to yourself. I've had the
>shit scared out of me by Jack and Rexella Van Impe, and they did it
>*way* better than you do. (Of course, I was 8 years old at the time.
>I'm 60 now, and I don't scare very damn easy anymore.)
They don't seem to understand what threatening non-Christians with
what they know we don't believe for not believing it, tells us about
their IQ.
That they don't understand this, tells us more about them. And it's
not flattering.
Jimbo
>
There exists a rather large body of writers and state records that are
contemporary to these historical figures. The Romans were
particularly good record keepers. Alexander's father hired Aristotle
as a personal tutor for Alexander so we know quite a bit about
Alexander's childhood. Alexander brought his own personal historians
to record his campaigns. Caesar did the same, and he appears in
numerous Roman state documents. Pontius Pilate is also recorded,
including records for state executions. The execution of Jesus is
not among those records.
Jimbo
>
> - Show quoted text -
Then you are blind. There exist a whole raft of evidence for
Alexander's existence by record sources contemporary to him.
Including records kept by his enemies. Greeks, Persians, ect.
haiku jones
Well, Rexella still scares me...
Haiku Jones
Free Lunch
Frankie Lee <leea...@yahoo.com> wrote in
<10b7c7f8-e9f6-4b54...@z4g2000prh.googlegroups.com>:
>On Oct 26, 9:26�am, Yap <hhyaps...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Oct 26, 8:44�am, Frankie Lee <leeahk...@yahoo.com> wrote:> On Oct 26, 2:04�am, "Bill M" <wm...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>>
>> > > For over five years now I have been publishing in newsgroups a
>>
>> > > challenge to God worshippers to produce OBJECTIVE VERIFIABLE
>>
>> > > EVIDENCE �that their God actually exists.
>>
>> > > I'm still waiting!
>>
>> > > Bill M
>>
>> > ***Then you must ignorant that God Himself doesn't wish to prove His
>> > existence to you,for the Bible said so,in Romans.
>>
>> And your god spoke in Roman?
>> Your scripture is a direct evidence of the evilness of a god you
>> worshiped.
>
>God made it evident to them.
>
>truths to him who doesn't want it?You see the Bible is full of wisdom.
I'm not sure about that, but I am sure that the Bible never once
mentioned evolution or told you that the theory of evolution was wrong.
Free Lunch
>> <leeahk...@yahoo.com> wrote in alt.atheism:
>>
>> >On Oct 26, 2:04�am, "Bill M" <wm...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>> >> For over five years now I have been publishing in newsgroups a
>>
>> >> challenge to God worshippers to produce OBJECTIVE VERIFIABLE
>>
>> >> EVIDENCE �that their God actually exists.
>>
>> >> I'm still waiting!
>>
>> >> --
>> >> Bill M
>>
>> >***Then you must ignorant that God Himself doesn't wish to prove His
>> >existence to you,for the Bible said so,in Romans.
>>
>
>**You need not.
>
>THEM;for God made it evident to them.
So you claim. Why should I believe your interpretation of anything in
that error-riddled book?
Free Lunch
>On Oct 26, 8:30�pm, Les Hellawell <l...@fakeaddress.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 25 Oct 2009 19:54:45 -0700 (PDT), Frankie Lee
>>
>>
>>
>> <leeahk...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >On Oct 26, 9:13�am, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote:
>> >> On Sun, 25 Oct 2009 17:44:59 -0700 (PDT), Frankie Lee
>> >> <leeahk...@yahoo.com> wrote in alt.atheism:
>>
>> >> >On Oct 26, 2:04�am, "Bill M" <wm...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>> >> >> For over five years now I have been publishing in newsgroups a
>>
>> >> >> challenge to God worshippers to produce OBJECTIVE VERIFIABLE
>>
>> >> >> EVIDENCE �that their God actually exists.
>>
>> >> >> I'm still waiting!
>>
>> >> >> --
>> >> >> Bill M
>>
>> >> >***Then you must ignorant that God Himself doesn't wish to prove His
>> >> >existence to you,for the Bible said so,in Romans.
>>
>> >> Why would I believe your interpretation of that book?
>>
>> >**You need not.
>>
>> >Romans 1:19 ..because that which is known about God is evident WITHIN
>> >THEM;for God made it evident to them.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Les Hellawell
>> Greetings from:
>> YORKSHIRE - The White Rose County
>
>Are we expected to accept what they say just on their say-so?
>
>Reply: So nobody should accept nobody's opinion,right?You figure it
>out yourself.
>
>
>
back up the opinion. Nobody has any evidence to back up their claims
about their gods.
Free Lunch
Polycarp <simon.p...@gmail.com> wrote in
<eec8065a-c666-42e8...@t2g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>:
>On Oct 25, 4:23?pm, Andre Lieven <andrelie...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>> On Oct 25, 7:17?pm, Polycarp <Simon.Piss...@kook.nutter> oozed lies:
>>
>> > On Oct 25, 11:04 am, "Bill M" <wm...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>>
>> > > For over five years now I have been publishing in newsgroups a
>>
>> > > challenge to God worshippers to produce OBJECTIVE VERIFIABLE
>>
>>
>> > > I'm still waiting!
>>
>> > I'm sure you've heard the "Unmoved Mover" by Aristotle even before
>> > Jesus Christ was born. It was followed by Aquinas in his "Cosmological
>> > Argument." Then there is the arguments by Anselm and Descartes.
>>
>> > The argument from universal consent is a good one too.
>>
>> None of which is actual evidnece. Do keep that in mind, when you next
>> go in front of a judge...
>
>In the courts of law, testimonials of witnesses are admissible as far
>as I know.
Only in very rare circumstances are testimonials solicited or allowed.
The Bible, of course, is only evidence of what the Bible says and is not
acceptable as evidence for history, science, the gods or anything else
that actually needs evidence.
>
>> > Over the years, archaeology have presented us with amazing findings
>> > surrounding Jesus Christ, like the passage from Josephus about his
>> > cousins, John the Baptist and James the Just. The extant writings of
>> > Pliny the Younger, Tacitus, Suetonius and others are verifiable as
>> > well.
>>
>> Well, such "findings" are certainly "amazing", in that anyone trying
>> to claim that people who wrote about the worshippers of a fictional guy
>> existed, which said worshippers surely did.
>>
>> But, to try to use that as "evidence" that the being being worshipped
>> existed also means that the Harry Potter books PROVE that Lord
>> Voldemort exists.
>
>But nobody said in the Harry Potter books that Voldemort is a real
>person.
Sure they do. Read the books.
>
>> So, you flunk Basic Logic 101. Again.
>
>I guess that would be you.
>
>> > Do you believe the existence of Alexander the Great, Augustus Caesar
>> > and/or Pontius Pilate?
>>
>> IOW, you have NO actual evidence for your claims.
>
>There are books written about Alexander the Great, Augustus Caesar and
>Pontius Pilate. They really exist.
>
>> Thanks for proving, once again, that atheism is the rational view.
>
>I don't think so, you can't even accept that Alexander the Great
>existed because I don't have an actual evidence that he existed.
Luckily for the world, we don't have to rely on your ignorance to know
what exists.
AZ Nomad
>On Sun, 25 Oct 2009 19:59:31 -0700 (PDT), in alt.atheism
>Frankie Lee <leea...@yahoo.com> wrote in
><10b7c7f8-e9f6-4b54...@z4g2000prh.googlegroups.com>:
>>> On Oct 26, 8:44?am, Frankie Lee <leeahk...@yahoo.com> wrote:> On Oct 26, 2:04?am, "Bill M" <wm...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> > > For over five years now I have been publishing in newsgroups a
>>>
>>> > > challenge to God worshippers to produce OBJECTIVE VERIFIABLE
>>>
>>>
>>> > > I'm still waiting!
>>>
>>> > > --
>>> > > Bill M
>>>
>>> > ***Then you must ignorant that God Himself doesn't wish to prove His
>>> > existence to you,for the Bible said so,in Romans.
>>>
>>> Who had said that? You?
>>> And your god spoke in Roman?
>>> Your scripture is a direct evidence of the evilness of a god you
>>> worshiped.
>>
>>Romans 1:19...that which is known about God is evident within them,for
>>God made it evident to them.
>>The fool has said there is no God.
>>The Devils also believe in God,and tremble.
>>
>>Would you want to prove to obnoxious folks?Would you want to show the
>>truths to him who doesn't want it?You see the Bible is full of wisdom.
>I'm not sure about that, but I am sure that the Bible never once
>mentioned evolution or told you that the theory of evolution was wrong.
The bible fails to even mention anything as sophisticated as a door
knob. What do you expect of a stoneage culture?
Jimbo
The sycophantic followers of Claudius or Caligula are not roaming the
country demanding that Claudius or Caligula be worshipped on bended
knee. Ergo, the followers of Jesus are under a far stricter level of
evidence. There are other sources of information on Claudius and
Caligula that is contemporary to them as well.
Smiler
> On Oct 26, 2:04 am, "Bill M" <wm...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>> For over five years now I have been publishing in newsgroups a
>>
>> challenge to God worshippers to produce OBJECTIVE VERIFIABLE
>>
>>
>> I'm still waiting!
>>
>> --
>> Bill M
>
> ***Then you must ignorant that God Himself doesn't wish to prove His
> existence to you,for the Bible said so,in Romans.
Why should we believe your book of myths, fairy tales, contradictions and
downright lies?
Why should we believe your opinions and beliefs?
There is NO evidence that any god exists, therefore, it's safe to assume
that none do exist.
--
Smiler
The godless one
a.a.# 2279
All gods are bespoke. They're all made to
perfectly fit the prejudices of their believer
Virgil
"Smiler" <Smi...@joe.king.com> wrote:
> Frankie Lee wrote:
> > On Oct 26, 2:04 am, "Bill M" <wm...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> >> For over five years now I have been publishing in newsgroups a
> >>
> >> challenge to God worshippers to produce OBJECTIVE VERIFIABLE
> >>
> >> EVIDENCE that their God actually exists.
> >>
> >> I'm still waiting!
> >>
> >> --
> >> Bill M
> >
> > ***Then you must ignorant that God Himself doesn't wish to prove His
> > existence to you,for the Bible said so,in Romans.
>
> Why should we believe your book of myths, fairy tales, contradictions and
> downright lies?
> Why should we believe your opinions and beliefs?
> There is NO evidence that any god exists, therefore, it's safe to assume
> that none do exist.
Or at least refuse to believe that any gods do exist.
Yap
> On Oct 25, 6:22 pm, Yap <hhyaps...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Oct 26, 7:17 am, Polycarp <Simon.Polyc...@yahoo.com> wrote:> On Oct 25, 11:04 am, "Bill M" <wm...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
> > > > For over five years now I have been publishing in newsgroups a
>
> > > > challenge to God worshippers to produce OBJECTIVE VERIFIABLE
>
> > > > EVIDENCE that their God actually exists.
>
> > > > I'm still waiting!
>
> > > I'm sure you've heard the "Unmoved Mover" by Aristotle even before
> > > Jesus Christ was born. It was followed by Aquinas in his "Cosmological
> > > Argument." Then there is the arguments by Anselm and Descartes.
>
> > You are fascinated with the claims of past DEAD human.
> > They claimed they could walk on water, and could speak to snakes, and
> > also part the water channel.
> > But when modern men did these acts, you called them MAGICIANS.
> > Can you tell us the difference.
>
> I don't know what you're talking about. You wrote "magicians" out of
> nowhere. Where did that come from? I didn't even write it.
But the act of walking on water would make you scream "magic", right?
>
> > > The argument from universal consent is a good one too.
>
> > > Over the years, archaeology have presented us with amazing findings
> > > surrounding Jesus Christ, like the passage from Josephus about his
> > > cousins, John the Baptist and James the Just. The extant writings of
> > > Pliny the Younger, Tacitus, Suetonius and others are verifiable as
> > > well.
>
> > There were a lot of past archaeological findings of past historical
> > dead and events.
> > They remained past and have no relevance to current human survival.
> > This Jesus thing belongs to a tiny land in the Middle-east, of no
> > slightest significance to elsewhere at all.
>
> Well, the OP was asking for rational explanation of the existence of
> Jesus Christ and I provided them. This Jesus Christ belongs now to
> more than 2 billion Christians around the world.
>
> > Or, do you think the words of the Indian by the name of "Apache" in
> > 1809 in American had a profound effect in the people of US now?
>
> Maybe not, but the name and people "Apache" existed. That's the whole
> point of the OP.
stood out and was brave to fight the whites.
He lived an example to his tribes to this day.
But, so what? The Indian tribe was down right out caste in a white
dominate society and can never rise again.
>
> > > Do you believe the existence of Alexander the Great, Augustus Caesar
> > > and/or Pontius Pilate?
>
> > Not particularly interesting,
>
> But they existed nevertheless. They were written in books. And
> archaelogy also proves that they existed.
claimed magical powers.
>
>
>
> > similar to Kuku khan of Mongolian
> > Empire, Jerjer King of the Ottoman Empire and the Thor god of Greek.
>
> > What is more important is a god that can prevent all the numerous
> > disasters happening in this world, and help to eliminate the poverty
> > we have seen in Sub-Indian and African continent.
>
> > The end of a human life is a natural event, and his contribution is
> > remembered. There is no second life.
> > That's all.
thomas p.
I certainly do. We also have independent and contemporary documentation
that
they existed; and their existence does not require that we believe anything
supernatural about them, while their non-existence would present difficult
problems
of explanation. How about you, do you believe that Mohammed rode a horse
through the air? If not, why? After all it is all documented.
thomas p.
> On Oct 25, 4:23�pm, Andre Lieven <andrelie...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>> On Oct 25, 7:17�pm, Polycarp <Simon.Piss...@kook.nutter> oozed
>> lies:
>>
>>> On Oct 25, 11:04 am, "Bill M" <wm...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>>
>>>> For over five years now I have been publishing in newsgroups a
>>
>>>> challenge to God worshippers to produce OBJECTIVE VERIFIABLE
>>
>>>> EVIDENCE �that their God actually exists.
>>
>>>> I'm still waiting!
>>
>>> I'm sure you've heard the "Unmoved Mover" by Aristotle even before
>>> Jesus Christ was born. It was followed by Aquinas in his
>>> "Cosmological Argument." Then there is the arguments by Anselm and
>>> Descartes.
>>
>>> The argument from universal consent is a good one too.
>>
>> None of which is actual evidnece. Do keep that in mind, when you next
>> go in front of a judge...
>
> In the courts of law, testimonials of witnesses are admissible as far
> as I know.
If someone testifies to something supernatural, he is going to need
something
more than testimony.
>
>>> Over the years, archaeology have presented us with amazing findings
>>> surrounding Jesus Christ, like the passage from Josephus about his
>>> cousins, John the Baptist and James the Just. The extant writings of
>>> Pliny the Younger, Tacitus, Suetonius and others are verifiable as
>>> well.
>>
>> Well, such "findings" are certainly "amazing", in that anyone trying
>> to claim that people who wrote about the worshippers of a fictional
>> guy existed, which said worshippers surely did.
>>
>> But, to try to use that as "evidence" that the being being worshipped
>> existed also means that the Harry Potter books PROVE that Lord
>> Voldemort exists.
>
> But nobody said in the Harry Potter books that Voldemort is a real
> person.
I see. So you believe the writings of Mohammed?
>
>> So, you flunk Basic Logic 101. Again.
>
> I guess that would be you.
>
>>> Do you believe the existence of Alexander the Great, Augustus Caesar
>>> and/or Pontius Pilate?
>>
>> IOW, you have NO actual evidence for your claims.
>
> There are books written about Alexander the Great, Augustus Caesar and
> Pontius Pilate. They really exist.
And we know this because their is evidence along with contemporary
documentation. That is why we know Mohammed existed, but the documentation
does not mean that we have to believe everything Mohammed wrote.
>
>> Thanks for proving, once again, that atheism is the rational view.
>
> I don't think so, you can't even accept that Alexander the Great
> existed because I don't have an actual evidence that he existed.
Perhaps you don't. I look forward to hearing your thoughts on the writings
of Mohammed.
Yap
> In article <ITuFm.77003$q07.64...@newsfe30.ams2>,
Which instance do you wish for us to qualify as an evidence that any
god existed?
Les Hellawell
<ronin...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>Frankie Lee wrote:
>On Oct 26, 2:04 am, "Bill M" <wm...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>For over five years now I have been publishing in newsgroups a
>challenge to God worshippers to produce OBJECTIVE VERIFIABLE
>EVIDENCE that their God actually exists.
>I'm still waiting!
>
>A lot of people go looking for God in a church. They only find
>a sect willing to tell them what they want to hear. And the
>sect will gladly help separate them from their money.
>
>Then there are a few people that will diligently and earnestly
>seek God, and they will find Him.
Where?
In your imagination perhaps?
>
>Unfortunately and sadly in your case you will have to die to
>realize God exists. You'll know then He exists, cause you'll
>be standing in front of Him. If you spent as much time seeking
>God as you do denying Him, you would have something worthwhile.
Really?
Les Hellawell
<simon.p...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Oct 25, 11:57?am, "Bill M" <wm...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>> "Polycarp" <Simon.Polyc...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:29f76689-4688-411c...@p23g2000vbl.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Oct 25, 11:04 am, "Bill M" <wm...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>> >> For over five years now I have been publishing in newsgroups a
>>
>> >> challenge to God worshippers to produce OBJECTIVE VERIFIABLE
>>
>> >> EVIDENCE ?that their God actually exists.
>>
>> >> I'm still waiting!
>>
>> > I'm sure you've heard the "Unmoved Mover" by Aristotle even before
>> > Jesus Christ was born. It was followed by Aquinas in his "Cosmological
>> > Argument." Then there is the arguments by Anselm and Descartes.
>>
>> > The argument from universal consent is a good one too.
>>
>> > Over the years, archaeology have presented us with amazing findings
>> > surrounding Jesus Christ, like the passage from Josephus about his
>> > cousins, John the Baptist and James the Just. The extant writings of
>> > Pliny the Younger, Tacitus, Suetonius and others are verifiable as
>> > well.
>>
>> > Do you believe the existence of Alexander the Great, Augustus Caesar
>> > and/or Pontius Pilate?
>>
>> Just supplying opinions!
>
>What is your opinion? Do you believe in the existence of Alexander the
>Great, Augustus Caesar and/or Pontius Pilate?
Are you trying to change the subject because you cannot answer
Bill's question.
Les Hellawell
wrote:
None of which tells us whether claims there is a god has any
validity. All Polycarp is doing by doubting the existence of
Alexander is tring to show is that we cannot be certain of anything
about the past an admission or excuse for being unable show
that this 2000+ years old claim there is a god cannot be verified and
that it is all down to mere belief.
Maybe he had to do it this way (using Alexander as a kind of
stand in for his claimed god) because he cannot admit to
himself he has no justification for believing there is such a
thng as god.
Jimbo
> On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 16:31:39 -0700 (PDT), Jimbo <ckdbig...@gmail.com>
Agreed.
Christopher A. Lee
wrote:
>Polycprap wrote:
>> On Oct 25, 11:57�am, "Bill M" <wm...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>>> "Polyputthekettleon" <Simon.Polyc...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>
>>> news:29f76689-4688-411c...@p23g2000vbl.googlegroups.com...
>>>
>>>> On Oct 25, 11:04 am, "Bill M" <wm...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>>>>> For over five years now I have been publishing in newsgroups a
>>>
>>>>> challenge to God worshippers to produce OBJECTIVE VERIFIABLE
>>>
>>>>> EVIDENCE �that their God actually exists.
>>>
>>>>> I'm still waiting!
>>>
>>>> I'm sure you've heard the "Unmoved Mover" by Aristotle even before
>>>> Jesus Christ was born. It was followed by Aquinas in his
>>>> "Cosmological Argument." Then there is the arguments by Anselm and
>>>> Descartes.
All of whom don't seem to have any grasp of basic logic because they
all fail for the same reason...
The arguments waffle back beyond where there is any knowledge, stop
arbitrarily where there is no reason to, and then make a non-sequitur
leap to a god they already happen to believe in.
>>>> The argument from universal consent is a good one too.
Another name for the argument ad populum. It's a fallacy. Reality
doesn't care how many people believe something.
Was the Earth really flat once because the majority believed that? Did
it suddenly become a ball one day when people stopped believing it was
flat?
Eat shit, 60,000,000,000 flies can't all be wrong.
>>>> Over the years, archaeology have presented us with amazing findings
>>>> surrounding Jesus Christ,
Because you say so?
>>>> like the passage from Josephus about his
>>>> cousins, John the Baptist and James the Just.
But the only mentions of Jesus are obvious forgeries.
>>>> The extant writings of
>>>> Pliny the Younger, Tacitus, Suetonius and others are verifiable as
>>>> well.
None of which mention Jesus.
Just Christians as followers of Christ - repeating what Christians
believe.
And none of them are mentioned until much later even though they would
have been the ace in the hole for early Christian writers defending
Christianity, eg Origen's responses to Celsus who wrote about
Christianity's pagan origins.
No contemporary writer mentions ANY of the events. Like Philo (20 BCE
to 50 CE) who was at the heart of events being Jewish aristocracy,
priesthood and closely connected with the Herods through marriage and
business. He made detailed mention of practically everything - but
nothing related to the Jesus story at all, from the disruption
everybody having to travel to their birthplace for a census which
would have halted the business of the region for a few weeks, to the
crucifixion and resurrection.
>>>> Do you believe the existence of Alexander the Great, Augustus
>>>> Caesar and/or Pontius Pilate?
People didn't already believe in Alexander, Caesar or Pilate before
looking for evidence. Jesus is a presumption due to religious belief
and nothing else, for which there is only rationalisationnot evidence.
Face it, if they actually had any they would have used it long ago.
This is a dishonest bait'n'switch, attempt to shift the burden of
proof and red herring. Part of the dodge ball cornered Christians use
to cop out of backing up their claims.
It doesn't even fool anybody. Let alone them, and definitely not those
who only asked the question they begged by presuming he was real.
"Jesus was real"
"Prove it (put up or shut up)"
"You believe in Alexander the Great so why don't you believe in Jesus"
"Wow, you convinced me"
Why don't these idiots think before opening their mouths.
Besides which, they're supposed to believe on faith not evidence.
And they wouldn't be told to prove it if they had the common sense and
courtesy to keep it inside their religion.
All it does is confirm they have nothing.
When backing up something you use the best you've got, and that will
satisfy the listener.
So this is the best they've got.
Do they honestly not understand just how unconvincing it is?
>>> Just supplying opinions!
>>
>> What is your opinion? Do you believe in the existence of
>> Alexander the Great, Augustus Caesar and/or Pontius Pilate?
>
>I certainly do. We also have independent and contemporary
>documentation that they existed; and their existence does not
>require that we believe anything supernatural about them, while
>their non-existence would present difficult problems of
>explanation. How about you, do you believe that Mohammed rode
>a horse through the air? If not, why? After all it is all
>documented.
It's a standard dishonest cornered Christian tactic to reduce all
sorts of words which carry more precise meanings to "believe" as
though they were all equivalent to their kind of unevindenced,
pre-existing religious belief.
We shouldn't let them get away with it because they do it to
equivocate between two different meanings.
In this case belief-1 is conclusion from the evidence which was the
first time we saw the names of the people, and belief-2 which comes
before any evidence is found for religious reasons.
When talking with theists, the word "believe" should only be used for
their kind of belief to prevent them equivocating.
Christopher A. Lee
"God is real"
"Prove it"
"You'll be punished by what you don't believe for not believing it"
"Wow, how convincing"
Jimbo
The OP actually challenged: "produce OBJECTIVE VERIFIABLE EVIDENCE
that their God actually exists."
You failed to provide it.
Old Harley Rider
FOOLS ! ! !
Old Harley Rider
FOOLS.........
Old Harley Rider
FOOLS .....
Old Harley Rider
FOOLS......
Old Harley Rider
FOOLS....
Old Harley Rider
FOOLS......
Les Hellawell
Les Hellawell
.. and horses
Jimbo
>
> - Show quoted text -
Is this what passes for reasoned debate among the christer crowd?
SkyEyes
So threats and invective are your speciality, huh? Don't you know
that your Wholly Babble says not to call another person a fool, and
that to do so puts you in danger of hellfire?
You christers don't even ready your own sacred writings. Pathetic.
Brenda Nelson, A.A.#34
BAAWA Knight
EAC Professor of Feline Thermometrics and Cat-Herding
skyeyes nine at cox dot net
SkyEyes
<Snip>
> FOOLS.........
Real in-ta-leck-shul, ain't ya?
<Eye roll>
SkyEyes
From what I remember about being a christian - lo, these 40 years gone
by - the answer would be "yes."
SkyEyes
<Snip>
> FOOLS ! ! !
Jesus H. Fucking Pineapple Christ on a Pogo Stick: can't you come up
with *any* sensible rejoinder at all??? Is "FOOLS!!!" the only thing
you can think of?
*Man*, but they're gettin' stupid these days.
SkyEyes
> On Oct 26, 4:55 pm, Yap <hhyaps...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Oct 26, 10:59 am, Frankie Lee <leeahk...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Oct 26, 9:26 am, Yap <hhyaps...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Oct 26, 8:44 am, Frankie Lee <leeahk...@yahoo.com> wrote:> On Oct 26, 2:04 am, "Bill M" <wm...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > > For over five years now I have been publishing in newsgroups a
>
> > > > > > challenge to God worshippers to produce OBJECTIVE VERIFIABLE
>
>
> > > > > > I'm still waiting!
>
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Bill M
>
> > > > > ***Then you must ignorant that God Himself doesn't wish to prove His
> > > > > existence to you,for the Bible said so,in Romans.
>
> > > > And your god spoke in Roman?
> > > > Your scripture is a direct evidence of the evilness of a god you
> > > > worshiped.
>
> > > Romans 1:19...that which is known about God is evident within them,for
> > > God made it evident to them.
>
> > So, your god spoke or wrote Roman?> The fool has said there is no God.
>
> > What do think your god will do for you? It would be nice that we all
> > have a god to fight for everything.> The Devils also believe in God,and tremble.
>
> > The devil is the endless thing you will have encounter, this whole
> > life of your.
>
> > > Would you want to prove to obnoxious folks?Would you want to show the
> > > truths to him who doesn't want it?You see the Bible is full of wisdom.
>
> > You are seeing all the evilness in the bible, yet you remain a willing
> > party.
> > Since when do human need a god to prosper?
> > Your willingness to retreat to cave life is noted.
>
> ***The Bible is a historical records.Must it be dishonest just like
> you guys?If Solomon had 1000 wives,it will state exactly it was.
>
> The evilness of those people as describe in the Bible,doesn't meant
> the Bible is evil.The Bible is history,inspired by God to tell exactly
> how and why it happened.
Actually, it's *not* history. There is no evidence of a world-wide
flood. There is no evidence that the exodus from Egypt ever
happened. And most damning of all, current archaeological finds by
Israel Finkelstine and Neill Silbermann indicate that the Israelites
did *not* come to Canaan from some far-off place like Ur, but in fact
coalesced out of the native Canaanite people (specifically those who
lived in the highlands of what is now the West Bank).
Oh, and one last thing: during the reign of Cesar Augustus, there was
*no* taxation census taken requiring everyone in the Roman Empire to
travel to their birthplace to be counted. So that kinda means the
gospels ain't "history" either.
And those are just the examples off the top of my head. I can come up
with more, if you like.
Christopher A. Lee
wrote:
>On Oct 27, 8:15�am, Old Harley Rider <roninfl...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
><Snip>
>
>> FOOLS ! ! !
>
>Jesus H. Fucking Pineapple Christ on a Pogo Stick: can't you come up
>with *any* sensible rejoinder at all??? Is "FOOLS!!!" the only thing
>you can think of?
>
>*Man*, but they're gettin' stupid these days.
Were they ever anything else?
When I was eight I treated my teacher as an idiot because she expected
me to take obvious myths and legends seriously the first time I ever
heard them. And asked the same stupid loaded questions we see here
every day. Like "who made all this?". And "You've got to have faith".
After which I couldn't trust anything she said unless I made sure she
knew what she was talking about.
A schoolboy shouldn't know his teacher is an idiot.
SkyEyes
> On Oct 26, 4:23 pm, SkyEyes <skyey...@cox.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Oct 26, 3:38 pm, Old Harley Rider <roninfl...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > Frankie Lee wrote:
>
> > > On Oct 26, 2:04 am, "Bill M" <wm...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> > > For over five years now I have been publishing in newsgroups a
> > > challenge to God worshippers to produce OBJECTIVE VERIFIABLE
> > > EVIDENCE that their God actually exists.
> > > I'm still waiting!
>
> > > a sect willing to tell them what they want to hear. And the
> > > sect will gladly help separate them from their money.
>
> > > Then there are a few people that will diligently and earnestly
> > > seek God, and they will find Him.
>
> > > realize God exists. You'll know then He exists, cause you'll
> > > be standing in front of Him. If you spent as much time seeking
> > > God as you do denying Him, you would have something worthwhile.
>
> > theists of other flavors here on alt.atheism. The fact is, a passel
> > of us spent many, many years looking for a god. Any god. Know what
> > we found?
>
> > Zip.
> > Zilch.
> > Nada.
> > Tipotallo.
> > Gar nichts.
> > Bupkiss.
>
> > Not being crazy or masochistic, we stopped looking.
>
> > So here's a little morsel for you to chew on, Harley: *if* there is a
> > god, and *if* it wants me (and every other atheist) to believe in him/
> > her/it, s/he/it knows *exactly* what each of us would consider to be
> > adequate evidence of existence. And being omnipotent, s/he/it would
> > be able to provide that evidence quite easily.
>
> > The fact that such evidence is not forthcoming means one of two
> > things: (1) that a god exists but doesn't much care if we believe in
> > him/her/it or not; OR (2) that there's no god.
>
> > Explanation (2) is simpler and more parsimonious, but the net result
> > is the same.
>
> > Of course, if *you* have any evidence that a god exists, by all means,
> > please post it here immediately.
>
> > And while you're at it, also post evidence that there is such a thing
> > as a "soul," and that there really *is* an afterlife.
>
> > Failing that, please keep your dire threats to yourself. I've had the
> > shit scared out of me by Jack and Rexella Van Impe, and they did it
> > *way* better than you do. (Of course, I was 8 years old at the time.
> > I'm 60 now, and I don't scare very damn easy anymore.)
>
> Well, Rexella still scares me...
As well she should. Have you seen recent pictures of the old hag?
Holly mamma.
Brenda
SkyEyes
> Yap wrote:
<Snippety>
> > Which instance do you wish for us to qualify as an evidence that any
> > god existed?
>
> FOOLS......
Wow. You're a real one-trick pony, ain'tcha? Do you think you're
getting brownie points from your magick sky fairy by yelling "FOOLS"
at us?
Smiler
> On Oct 25, 6:22?pm, Yap <hhyaps...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Oct 26, 7:17?am, Polycarp <Simon.Polyc...@yahoo.com> wrote:> On
>> Oct 25, 11:04 am, "Bill M" <wm...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>>
>>>> For over five years now I have been publishing in newsgroups a
>>
>>>> challenge to God worshippers to produce OBJECTIVE VERIFIABLE
>>
>>
>>>> I'm still waiting!
>>
>>> I'm sure you've heard the "Unmoved Mover" by Aristotle even before
>>> Jesus Christ was born. It was followed by Aquinas in his
>>> "Cosmological Argument." Then there is the arguments by Anselm and
>>> Descartes.
>>
Opinions are not evidence.
>> You are fascinated with the claims of past DEAD human.
>> They claimed they could walk on water, and could speak to snakes, and
>> also part the water channel.
>> But when modern men did these acts, you called them MAGICIANS.
>> Can you tell us the difference.
>
> I don't know what you're talking about. You wrote "magicians" out of
> nowhere. Where did that come from? I didn't even write it.
>
>>> The argument from universal consent is a good one too.
>>
>>> Over the years, archaeology have presented us with amazing findings
>>> surrounding Jesus Christ, like the passage from Josephus about his
>>> cousins, John the Baptist and James the Just. The extant writings of
>>> Pliny the Younger, Tacitus, Suetonius and others are verifiable as
>>> well.
>>
>> There were a lot of past archaeological findings of past historical
>> dead and events.
>> They remained past and have no relevance to current human survival.
>> This Jesus thing belongs to a tiny land in the Middle-east, of no
>> slightest significance to elsewhere at all.
>
> Well, the OP was asking for rational explanation of the existence of
> Jesus Christ
Read again. He was asking for OBJECTIVE VERIFIABLE EVIDENCE, not an
explanation.
> and I provided them.
You did not. All you provided was opinions.
> This Jesus Christ belongs now to
> more than 2 billion Christians around the world.
>
The fallacy of argument from numbers.
Twice as many people don't believe in your Christ character than those that
do.
Even if that weren't so, 2 billion people can still be wrong.
>> Or, do you think the words of the Indian by the name of ?"Apache" in
>> 1809 in American had a profound effect in the people of US now?
>
> Maybe not, but the name and people "Apache" existed. That's the whole
> point of the OP.
>
Then show us the objective verifiable evidence that your fictional Christ
character existed.
>>> Do you believe the existence of Alexander the Great, Augustus Caesar
>>> and/or Pontius Pilate?
>>
>> Not particularly interesting,
>
> But they existed nevertheless. They were written in books. And
> archaelogy also proves that they existed.
>
Where is the archealogical evidence that your fictional Christ character
ever existed?
--
Smiler
The godless one
a.a.# 2279
All gods are bespoke. They're all made to
perfectly fit the prejudices of their believer
Smiler
> On Oct 26, 4:55 pm, Yap <hhyaps...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Oct 26, 10:59 am, Frankie Lee <leeahk...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>> On Oct 26, 8:44 am, Frankie Lee <leeahk...@yahoo.com> wrote:> On
>>>> Oct 26, 2:04 am, "Bill M" <wm...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>>
>>>>>> For over five years now I have been publishing in newsgroups a
>>
>>>>>> challenge to God worshippers to produce OBJECTIVE VERIFIABLE
>>
>>
>>>>>> I'm still waiting!
>>
Bullshit.
Prove, for example, that the Noahic flood happened.
By proof, I mean supply scientific evidence of this worldwide flood,
including:
1) a scientific explanation of where sufficient water to cover every
mountain came from
2) how a wooden arc, built to the dimensions detailed in the bible, didn't
'break its back' on the first wave it encountered
3) how Noah collected the Polar Bears, Penguins, Kangaroos, Koala Bears and
millions of other species and returned them to their usual habitat after the
supposed flood
4) how the food for all these animals for over a year was carried, along
with the animals, in such a small boat
5) how approx. 8 people managed to feed and 'muck out' all these different
species every day
6) where the waste products from these animals was stored
7) what happened to all the fish, as the saline sea water would have mixed
with fresh water in lakes, rivers and the rain, killing all saltwater fish
(not salty enough) and all freshwater fish (too salty)
There are more problems with the story, but that should keep you going for
some time.
> Must it be dishonest just like
> you guys?If Solomon had 1000 wives,it will state exactly it was.
>
Your extra-biblical evidence for this is?
> The evilness of those people as describe in the Bible,doesn't meant
> the Bible is evil.The Bible is history,inspired by God to tell exactly
> how and why it happened.
This god of yours supposedly created everything.
"Everything" would include 'evil'. What could be more evil than the supposed
creator of evil?
Christopher A. Lee
wrote:
>On Oct 26, 5:45�am, Frankie Lee <leeahk...@yahoo.com> wrote:
It takes a complete idiot to tell people who don't already believe it,
that it was inspired by what is to us a figment of his imagination.
Do they honestly not understand why they get treated like idiots for
this sort of question-begging stupidity?
>Oh, and one last thing: during the reign of Cesar Augustus, there was
>*no* taxation census taken requiring everyone in the Roman Empire to
>travel to their birthplace to be counted. So that kinda means the
>gospels ain't "history" either.
If they bothered to think about that, it would mean the whole region
grinding to a halt for a few weeks because everybody would be
travelling instead of carrying out their normal business.
Seen in that light it means they contrived a "reason" for the birth to
be in Bethlehem to fit a cherry picked "prophecy" that any Jew will
tell you was for a more mudane event that happened much earlier.
haiku jones
> On Oct 27, 8:17 am, Old Harley Rider <roninfl...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Yap wrote:
>
> <Snippety>
>
> > > Which instance do you wish for us to qualify as an evidence that any
> > > god existed?
>
> > FOOLS......
>
> Wow. You're a real one-trick pony, ain'tcha? Do you think you're
> getting brownie points from your magick sky fairy by yelling "FOOLS"
> at us?
Well, no...but it's probably a lot of fun.
"HEY! YOU DAMN FOOLS! GET
OFFA MY LAWN!!"
Haiku Jones
Polycarp
> On Oct 27, 7:07�am, Polycarp <simon.polyc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Oct 25, 6:22 pm, Yap <hhyaps...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Oct 26, 7:17 am, Polycarp <Simon.Polyc...@yahoo.com> wrote:> On Oct 25, 11:04 am, "Bill M" <wm...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > For over five years now I have been publishing in newsgroups a
>
> > > > > challenge to God worshippers to produce OBJECTIVE VERIFIABLE
>
> > > > > EVIDENCE that their God actually exists.
>
> > > > > I'm still waiting!
>
> > > > Jesus Christ was born. It was followed by Aquinas in his "Cosmological
> > > > Argument." Then there is the arguments by Anselm and Descartes.
>
> > > They claimed they could walk on water, and could speak to snakes, and
> > > also part the water channel.
> > > But when modern men did these acts, you called them MAGICIANS.
> > > Can you tell us the difference.
>
> > I don't know what you're talking about. You wrote "magicians" out of
> > nowhere. Where did that come from? I didn't even write it.
>
> But the act of walking on water would make you scream "magic", right?
No, what are you talking about. You are confusing everybody. Stick
with the subject and stay away from magic.
> > > > The argument from universal consent is a good one too.
>
> > > > Over the years, archaeology have presented us with amazing findings
> > > > surrounding Jesus Christ, like the passage from Josephus about his
> > > > cousins, John the Baptist and James the Just. The extant writings of
> > > > Pliny the Younger, Tacitus, Suetonius and others are verifiable as
> > > > well.
>
> > > There were a lot of past archaeological findings of past historical
> > > dead and events.
> > > They remained past and have no relevance to current human survival.
> > > This Jesus thing belongs to a tiny land in the Middle-east, of no
> > > slightest significance to elsewhere at all.
>
> > Well, the OP was asking for rational explanation of the existence of
> > Jesus Christ and I provided them. This Jesus Christ belongs now to
> > more than 2 billion Christians around the world.
>
> > > Or, do you think the words of the Indian by the name of "Apache" in
> > > 1809 in American had a profound effect in the people of US now?
>
> > Maybe not, but the name and people "Apache" existed. That's the whole
> > point of the OP.
>
> And there were many "Apache" at that time. Perhaps one by that name
> stood out and was brave to fight the whites.
> He lived an example to his tribes to this day.
> But, so what? The Indian tribe was down right out caste in a white
> dominate society and can never rise again.
So what? They existed, that's what. And that's my point when it comes
to existence.
> > > > Do you believe the existence of Alexander the Great, Augustus Caesar
> > > > and/or Pontius Pilate?
>
> > > Not particularly interesting,
>
> > But they existed nevertheless. They were written in books. And
> > archaelogy also proves that they existed.
>
> But there is no archaelogical evidence for a particular JC that
> claimed magical powers.
Stay away from magic. JC existed and was documented in still extant
manuscripts, written by both Christian and non-Christian writers.
> > > similar to Kuku khan of Mongolian
> > > Empire, Jerjer King of the Ottoman Empire and the Thor god of Greek.
>
> > > What is more important is a god that can prevent all the numerous
> > > disasters happening in this world, and help to eliminate the poverty
> > > we have seen in Sub-Indian and African continent.
>
> > > The end of a human life is a natural event, and his contribution is
> > > remembered. There is no second life.
> > > That's all.
>
> And you have no answer to a sincere TRUTH above.
And what answer are you seeking?
Jimbo
Shame.
Robibnikoff
"Old Harley Rider" <ronin...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4ae70e4b$0$5124$9a6e...@unlimited.newshosting.com...
No one is interested in your inbred family.
--
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
BAAWA Knight
#1557
Hannele
If that's all you've got to contribute: FOAD.
--
Hannele, A.A #2211
Hannele
wrote:
That's: Only fools and horses.
I really like that series.
--
Hannele, A.A #2211
Frankie Lee
***With all the archaeologist finds,and even Hongkong expedition team
went to confirm it even in Mt Ararat---obviously you have never been
privy to such information,and liberal media surely done its sinister
job well.
Frankie Lee
***That is how Jesus said that those who seek the truth shall find.
, and one last thing: during the reign of Cesar Augustus, there was
You: *no* taxation census taken requiring everyone in the Roman Empire
to
travel to their birthplace to be counted. So that kinda means the
gospels ain't "history" either.
Me: Of course,if your information is credible then the gospel is done
for.But what if they were there,unintentionally mislead you?
Anybody can say anything they want---we want truths and not lies.
SkyEyes
You, Lambchop, are the one with the bogus info. They have *not* found
Noah's Ark, on Ararat or anywhere else. If they had, it would have
been all over the news. Contrary to your rather bigoted opinion,
nothing about the news media in North America is particularly
"liberal." (Except *maybe* MSNBC.) The MSM suck up to the Religious
Reich like nobody's business.
And besides, there are a *lot* of liberal christians. Or didn't you
know that?