Kneeling In Church On Sundays and during Pascha

[Steve Hayes]

Kneeling In Church On Sundays

by the late Archbishop Christodoulos of Athens

Preamble

The issue of kneeling on Sundays continues to engage clergy and laity, due to
the fact that diametrically opposite views have been formulated concerning
this practice.

On the one hand there are those who claim that this practice is prohibited by
the Sacred Canons. In particular, Canon 20 of the First Ecumenical Synod
states that no kneeling should be practiced on Sundays and during the period
of Pentecost. According to this canon, kneeling, it states, is not consistent
with the joyous and paschal character of these days, because kneeling is an
expression of repentance and of godly sorrow.

On the other hand, there are others who make the opposite claim. They argue
that kneeling at the time of the blessing of the Bread and the Wine, at the
point we say “Your own from Your own we offer…,” is not a kneeling of sorrow,
but of worship which is done because of the miracle which is effected at that
moment by the God of our worship.

There is also a third category of theologians, who claim that kneeling on
Sundays is neither recommended nor prohibited. It is simply tolerated,
wherever it is enforced and observed.

There is no doubt that those Christians who kneel on Sundays do not do this
out of irreverence, but out of great piety. They do it because they have been
taught that at the point when we say “Your own from Your own we offer…”
awe-inspiring mysteries take place: the Bread and the Wine that are used in
the Eucharist are changed by the invocation (epiklesis) of the Holy Spirit
into the Body and Blood of Christ. At the same time, however, it is certain
that these Christians have not read the Sacred Canons, and have not studied
the Holy Fathers. They simply behave according to what their Christian
conscience dictates, without realizing that their behavior violates the order
of the Church.

In the following paragraphs, we try to present in an analytic and objective
manner the various aspects of this issue in an attempt to specify what is
right and should be followed by the faithful Christians.

A. What Does The Term Kneeling (In Church) Mean?

The Sacred Canons on lesser and proper kneeling: Before we proceed to the next
step, it is useful to observe what the Sacred Canons mean by the term kneeling
in church. To begin with, kneeling in church is an ancient religious custom,
whereby the people who are at prayer express their faith. Such kneeling is
distinguished by two types:

Firstly, there is the kind when a person that prays bends the knees while
holding the body upright and looking towards the foreground. This position is
usually accompanied by simultaneous crossing oneself. It is the position we
take at the Vespers of Forgiveness, i.e. the Vespers of Pentecost. (Indeed,
the first prayer of this Vespers alludes to this in saying, “offering
supplication by bending the neck and inclining the knees”).

Secondly, there is the type when a faithful rests on his knees on the ground,
places his hands on it and bends down his forehead onto the earth, or when he
is standing up and decides to go down on the knees to the point that his face
touches the floor and then stands up again. This is repeated several times.

Kneeling and Repentance: The first kind of kneeling is called a minor
repentance, and the second, major repentance, or prostration or ground
prostration. Major repentances are practiced in the Presanctified Divine
Liturgies, at the point when the Holy Gifts pass by the faithful. Greater use
of them is made by monastics, and sometimes spiritual masters impose these
major repentances as a penance on those Christians who have sinned and
repented for their sins. Saint John the Faster introduced this custom of
penances, and called the major type of (church) kneeling simply kneeling.
Basil the Great closely identified repentance with the prostration.

When do we kneel and when do we not kneel in church: A differentiation is made
between the minor and the major types of kneeling in the Kollyvadian Book of
Liturgical Rubrics of the erudite economos Fr. George Regas of Skiathos, where
we read the following: “Repentances are of two kinds, minor and major. The
minor ones are the prostrations we do when we cross ourselves and bow only our
head without bending the knees. These minor repentances are done each day and
on many occasions throughout the day without ceasing. The major repentances
are characterized by the bending of the knees. These are never allowed on a
Saturday or Sunday (apart from the Feast of the Precious Cross), but are done
only during the Great Lent and on any day except Saturday and Sunday.”[1]

Kneeling and the four types of repentant persons: From what has been said so
far, we gather that prayer which is accompanied by repeated kneeling has the
meaning of repentance, i.e. the return of a sinner. It is known that in the
ancient Church the repentant persons were subdivided into four types:

Firstly, there were those who mourned. These people remained outside the
church nave and invited other faithful to pray for them.

Secondly, there were those who simply listened to the services. These people
entered only the narthex, and listened from there the reading of the
Scriptures.

Thirdly, there were those who bended the knee or knelt to the ground. These
people remained in this position in order to indicate their repentance.

Fourthly and finally, there were those who remained standing.

These types of repentance indicated people who had humbled themselves and were
seeking God’s mercy. They symbolized human falling into sin and standing up
against it. The falling to the ground indicated contrition and compunction,
whereas the standing up indicated deliverance and salvation. As Basil the
Great writes, “Each day by practicing kneeling to the ground and standing up
again we show that through sin we fell to the earth and through the love for
mankind of our Creator we were recalled to heaven.”[2]

B. What The Sacred Canons And Their Interpreters Say

What to do or what not to do on Sundays: Sunday was always distinguished from
any other day as a day of joy and celebration, because of the Resurrection.
This is why on Sunday we do not fast, and when we go through a period of
fasting and do not use oil, Sundays and Saturdays are exempted. The 66th Canon
of the Holy Apostles stipulates: “If any clergyman is found to be fasting on a
Sunday, or on a Saturday, except on Great Saturday, he should be
defrocked.”[3]

Why we should follow the Sacred Canons: One may ask, why do the Canons deal
with such matters and do not leave the people free to do what they like and
what they wish? The question is plausible. Nevertheless, we should not follow
on all matters what we like, but what is right. Otherwise there will be no
order in the Church and the symbolic actions will not be observed, in spite of
their essentially dogmatic content. The ever-memorable professor of Liturgics
John Foundoulis had this to say: “The position one takes in the Divine Liturgy
should not be determined by our own personal piety and disposition, but by the
Tradition of the Church, on the basis of the meaning which is given to every
liturgical position and at every moment of the Church’s worship.”[4]

On Sundays we neither kneel nor fast: Along with fasting, the Sacred Canons
prohibit all kneeling on Sundays.

What the Canons say: Saint Irenaeus writes: “The practice of not bending the
knee on a Sunday is a symbol of the Resurrection, through which we were
delivered by the Grace of Christ both from our sins and from the death which
was put to death by Christ himself.”[5]

In a similar fashion pseudo-Justin bears witness in his 115th answer to the
prohibition of all kneeling on Sundays. ´This custom was initiated in
Apostolic times as blessed Irenaeus, the martyr-bishop of Lyons, says.”[6]

Of great importance for this matter is Canon 20 of the First Ecumenical Synod,
which stipulates: “Because there are some persons who kneel in church on a
Sunday and during the days of Pentecost, with the view to preserving
uniformity in all parishes, it seemed best to the Holy Council that prayers
should be offered to God while standing.”[7] In other words, the Holy Synod
stipulates that on Sundays and during the period of Pentecost Christians
should pray in Church standing.

Canon 90 of the Sixth Ecumenical Synod is even clearer. Here is what is
specified: “We have received it canonically from our God-bearing Fathers not
to bend the knee on Sundays when we honor the Resurrection of Christ. Since
this observation may not be clear to some of us, we are making it plain to the
faithful, that after the entrance of those in holy orders into the sacrificial
altar on the evening of Saturday in question, let none of them bend the knee
until the evening of the following Sunday, when, after the Entrance in the
Vespers, we bend the knees again, and begin to offer prayers to the Lord. For
inasmuch as we have received it that in the night succeeding Saturday was the
precursor of our Savior’s rising, we commence our hymns at this point
spiritually, ending the festival by passing out of darkness into light, in
order that we may hence celebrate en masse the Resurrection for a whole day
and a whole night.” In other words from the evening of Saturday, after
Vespers, until the Vespers of Sunday we are obliged not to kneel when we pray.
Here is Balsamon’s comment on this Canon: “The Resurrection of Christ took
place on Saturday evening, i.e. before Sunday had dawned, so that what relates
to the feast might start at night and end towards the light and so the vigil
of the Resurrection is celebrated through the entire night and day.”[8]
Indeed, it is known that the Divine Liturgy is not celebrated during the days
of the Great Lent, except on Saturdays and Sundays. The reason for this is
that the Divine Liturgy is a template of the Resurrection and the Kingdom of
God.

What the Fathers say: Let us now see what the Fathers say about this matter.
Peter of Alexandria says this in his Canon 15: “As for Sunday, on the other
hand, we celebrate it as a joyous holiday because of Him who was resurrected
on it, on which day we have not even received instruction to bend the
knee.”[9]

St. Nikephoros the Confessor stipulates through his Canon 10 the following:
“One must bend the knee for the sake of bestowing a kiss on Sunday and
throughout Pentecost, but one ought not to make the usual genuflections.”[10]

Basil the Great says in his Canon 91: “We offer our prayers on the first of
the Sabbaths (Sunday) in a standing position.”[11] And he goes on to explain
the reasons which obligate us not to make the major genuflections on a Sunday
and during the entire period of Pentecost. These reasons are basically the
fact that Sunday is the day of the Resurrection of our Lord and consequently
we are obligated to remain standing in an upright position as resurrected
persons. Besides, every Sunday is a symbol of the eighth day, i.e. of the age
to come and for this reason the Church trains and teaches the faithful to
remember the age to come and to be prepared to welcome it in an upright
position which indicates vigilance. “In which (Sunday) the upright position of
prayer should be preferred as the stipulations of the Church have trained us
to do, so that by a sort of active reminder our mind might transmigrate from
the present to the future realities.”[12]

The minor kneeling (genuflection) or repentance used in worship. St. Nikodemos
the Hagiorite is the one among the Fathers who clarifies that the prohibition
of kneeling on Sundays does not include the minor kneeling, the so-called
minor repentance, which we make when we venerate the holy icons. The Church
does not forbid practicing this type of genuflection in church on Sundays.
This is why we hear, “Come let us worship and prostrate before Christ…”[13]
These minor prostrations which are done in veneration are not forbidden. The
major kneeling, however, which involves bending the knee to the ground and
touching the floor with the forehead, is forbidden, because it is contrary to
the paschal and eschatological character of Sunday, i.e. to the joyful and
festive spirit, which, on this account, is incompatible with any sense of
mourning or contrition which is indicated by the major kneeling. This why the
Church sings: “This is the Day which the Lord has made, let us rejoice and be
glad in It.”[14]

C. Other Views

There are theologians, however, who do not agree with what we wrote above.
Here are their main arguments. When the Myrrh-bearing women met with the Risen
Lord they fell on his feet and venerated Him. It was a Sunday when this took
place. It was on the Mount of Galilee that the eleven Disciples venerated the
Lord in the same way after His Resurrection. The Apostle Paul, writing to the
Corinthians, describes the gathering of the church for worship where each
believer “falls down with his face onto the ground to worship God.”[15] Here,
of course, it is not clarified whether the Apostle refers to the Sunday
gathering for worship.

Serious arguments for major (proper) kneeling on Sundays: Such arguments,
biblical, historical and canonical, are provided by Professor P. Trempelas in
his book “Kneeling on Sundays.”[16] In this book, the wise professor invokes
the witness of Codices 865 and 2055 of the National Library of Greece
concerning the Hierarch who “makes three repentances.” Nevertheless this
detail is not serious enough as to justify kneeling on Sundays. The same
observation applies to the Typikon (Book of Liturgical Rubrics) of the
12th-13th century which has been published by Dimitrievsky and makes mention
of “a triple kneeling of the priest.”[17] For these references, however,
Matthew Vlastares’ comment made in the Pedalion (Rudder) is important: “The
typika (rubrics) which are made by the founders of monasteries should be
observed as long as they do not contradict the canons.” The same professor
tries, on the basis of Canon 91 of Basil the Great, to render relative the
upright position in Sunday prayers by writing that the opinion of the Holy
Father is derived “from the unwritten tradition,”[18] although Canon 20 of the
First Ecumenical Synod had preceded it. At the same time the ever-memorable
professor appeals to the witness of the Typikon of St. Savva, saying that it
foresees for Sundays “bending of our knee and bowing towards the earth.”[19]
Nevertheless in the edition of this Typikon of the year 1771 that was printed
in Venice by Hierodeacon Spyridon Papadopoulos, the exact text reads as
follows: “bending and bowing unto the earth.”[20] Indeed, it is known that
Trempelas’ arguments were offset by other counter-arguments through the
special study of Metropolitan Hezekiel the Thessaliotis in the journal
Ekklesia.[21] Finally, with regard to the argument that in the ordinations,
which usually occur on Sundays, we kneel down, it should be carefully observed
that the most important codices do not refer to kneeling, either of the
candidate or of the people. The later liturgical practice speaks of the
kneeling of the candidate, but not of the people.

In addition, the ever-memorable Archimandrite Epiphanios Theodoropoulos in his
book “The Period of the Pentecostarion” insists on the distinction of various
forms of kneeling. He clearly states, regarding this matter, that “this manner
of combining the upright position with the bowing down in worship does not
contradict the stipulations of the Church but satisfies a deep psychological
need. This need is the worshipful prostration in the face of the one who
already stands before us, under the species of bread and wine, namely, our
King and Savior.”[22] And it seems that the solution to the whole problem is
hidden behind this point.

Professor Basil Anagnostopoulos of the Theological School of Halki in his
monograph “Kneeling at the Consecration of the Immaculate Mysteries of the
Lord on Sundays: The Tradition of the Theological School of Halki” deposits
his living memories from the School, where all the Patriarchs and Rectors of
the last decades, such as the Patriarchs Maximos and Athenagoras, Melito of
Chalcedon, Germanos of Thyateira, Gennadios of Elioupolis, Michael of America,
as well as the two last Rectors of the period of his studies and the two of
the period of his professorial service, used to kneel on Sundays. Ezekiel the
Thessaliotis, however, deposits the witness of Polykarpos of Trikke and Stagoi
(as Deacon to Patriarch Anthimos VII) according to which in the Patriarchate
“no one ever bent the knee on a Sunday, because they regarded this custom as
alien and strange to Greek Orthodoxy.”[23] Also, Archimandrite Eusebios
Matthopoulos, the founder of the Zoe Brotherhood of Theologians, honored the
custom of kneeling, having taken it from his Geronta Fr. Ignatios
Lampropoulos.

A serious argument in support of the non-absolute character of the prohibition
of kneeling on Sundays, which is put forth, is the Church’s praxis, whereby
she transferred, through its pertinent authority and apparently for pastoral
reasons, the Vespers of the Sunday of Pentecost when all believers kneel, from
the vesperal hours of the Sunday of Pentecost when believers also kneel
(because there is no prohibition of kneeling on this occasion, according to
Canon 90 of the Sixth Ecumenical Synod) to the morning of the Sunday of
Pentecost. Therefore, according to this view, the prohibition of kneeling on
Sundays does not have an absolute character, but can be overlooked on account
of spiritual-pastoral expediency. The position of Trempelas is indeed, that
“since the transference of the Vespers to the morning was allowed, the
prohibition of kneeling is of relative force and tolerable of exceptions and
flexibility.” Also, St. Nikodemos the Hagiorite writes, that the prayers of
kneeling should not be said in the morning because in this way the prohibition
of kneeling is thereby abolished. “Hence when we read these prayers in the
morning, we do it wrongly and sinfully and in contradiction to the Sacred
Canons.”[24] In addition, it is known that the Church has accepted the
liturgical repentances on Sunday worship. At this point we should remark that
we regard of special importance the observation of Professor Trempelas that
the Sacred Canons which prohibit kneeling on Sundays do not impose penalties
for possible transgressions of the specific stipulation.

Professor Ioannes Foundoulis attributes the introduction of the custom of
kneeling to Russian influence, which was exerted upon our customs most
probably by Queen Olga through the practice that was established in the Palace
chapel and was transmitted from there to the parishes. In Russia, this custom
was introduced at the time of Peter the Great and was due to European
influence. The same distinguished Greek liturgist, criticizing the support of
this custom, writes: “The tragic aspect of this case is not that some faithful
and even some clergy bend their knee at the consecration of the Precious
Gifts, but that this is taught and encouraged by the teachers of the Church in
spite of the Sacred Canons and the ages long ecclesiastical tradition and
order. Our piety in worship is bound to the liturgical order and consists in
our coordinating ourselves to the rhythm and the pattern of common prayer.
Otherwise we cause disarray and arbitrariness by not obeying the
ecclesiastical institutions and not trying to understand their spirit, but,
rather, to introduce our personal pietistic and pious-looking practices which
are alien to our ecclesiastical tradition.”[25]

D. The View of the Holy Synod of the Church of Greece

The Holy Synod of the Church of Greece at its meeting of October 1999 included
in its agenda the topic entitled, “Liturgical precision, orderliness and
unity, and ballot vote on a Constitution for a Special Synodal Committee of
Liturgical Regeneration” with Metropolitan Nikodemos of Patrai as chairman on
account of his tempered knowledge of liturgical matters. The Most Reverend
Metropolitan Nikodemos presented to the Synodal body the conclusions of the 10
member Committee which had examined the above topic under his chairmanship. On
the matter of kneeling the Committee proposed the following: “That kneeling on
Sunday is not required at the consecration and is not imposed. It is simply
tolerated.”

This view was based on a combination of the two opposing views that were
outlined above, because it was determined that neither those who
over-emphasize the absolute character of the prohibition of kneeling on
Sundays are right, nor do those who bend their knees at the awesome moment of
the consecration ignore “what the Spirit (of the sacred Canons) says to the
Churches.” In other words, the Holy Synod took the view that according to the
rule (canon) Christians should not kneel on Sundays at the moment of “Your own
from Your own we offer…” because this is what the Sacred Canons suggest
because it is characteristic of these days to stress the Resurrection.
Nevertheless, kneeling can be tolerated by concession (kat oikonomian),
because it does not indicate any irreverence, but rather indicates great
reverence and conscientious recognition of the awe-inspiring sacrifice which
takes place on the Holy Table at the invocation (epiklesis) of the grace of
the Holy Spirit.

What St. Nikodemos the Hagiorite says: We prefer to base our view not so much
on the exercise of concession for those who bend the knee, or less on the
absolute potency of the prohibition, but mainly on the distinction of the two
senses of “kneeling” – as they were explained above and as St. Nikodemos the
Hagiorite had explained the Canon. Here is what he writes in his
interpretation of Canon 20 of the First Ecumenical Synod. “Note, however, that
the present Canon is not referring to those genuflections which among us are
more commonly called major repentances, which, properly speaking, are called
prostrations that are made before kissing the icons of the saints or before
the awesome sacraments and are not prohibited neither on a Sunday nor on the
days of the period of Pentecost as Canon 10 of St. Nikephoros says. Indeed
this is what the sacred hymns also say on occasions: 'Before You we fall down
who was raised from the Tomb,' or 'Come let us worship and fall down before
Christ the risen One…' and other such like hymns.”[26] And St. Nikodemos
continues: “In my view the Canon does not refer to this kind of genuflection,
but to the genuflection wherein while bending our knees we pray, as we do, for
instance, during the evening of Holy Pentecost.”[27]

That is to say, yes the literary meaning of kneeling is the attachment of the
knees to the ground, but this should be avoided on Sundays, because the Sacred
Canons explicitly prohibit it and therefore, both clergy and laity should bend
their body deeply when the consecration takes place in order to indicate that
they stand before the sacrament in a spirit of veneration and worship. In this
way, neither the Sacred Canons are infringed, nor is the pious disposition of
the faithful overlooked or criticized.

Certainly we understand that this solution may cause the reaction of those who
are used to kneeling to the ground on Sundays. This matter, however, has to do
with pastoral and liturgical discipline, because people should be taught
rightly why the Sacred Canons prohibit kneeling in church on Sundays. This is
the duty of the clergy, who are required to undertake the responsibility to
teach the faithful what is right and to use the liturgical sermon to educate
their parishioners. There is no reason to allow the infiltration into the
Divine Liturgy of personal and sentimental elements which change its
character. Also, there is no need to try to find on every occasion pretexts or
explanations of deviations which are not approved by the Church. The Divine
Liturgy is not a personal affair. The Church lays down the order and she has
specified that paschal character of the Divine Liturgy which stresses the
Resurrection and which has been from the beginning associated with Sunday. We
do not need to prove the paschal character of the Divine Liturgy which is
connected with the Resurrection and the Last Things (eschatology). Besides,
the Church prohibited the celebration of the Divine Liturgy on days of fasting
and this, of course, has been today restricted to the period of the Great
Lent, but the primary sense still remains intact: the Eucharist is an
eschatological event and cannot be anything else but a celebratory occasion,
full of joy and radiance.[28]

------------------

[1] See his Typikon, Thessalonica, 1994, p. 42.

[2] Ralles-Potles, Syntagma, vol. 4, p. 286.

[3] Translator’s note: See the ???????? ??????? ??????????? ??? ?????????
??????? (3? ???????, ????????, 1864), ???. ?????, ?????? 1970, ?. 82. The
English translation of the above, i.e. The Rudder of Agapius and Nikodemus,
translated by D. Cummings, published by The Orthodox Christian Education
Society, Chicago Illinois, 1957, p.110 gives the number 64 for this Canon,
because, as it states it is so number in the majority of editions. However,
the more recent editions of the Sacred Canons (????? ???????) of H. Alivizatos
(1949) and Bl. Feidas (1997) give the number 55 to this Canon.

[4] Ioannes Foundoulis, Liturgics, p. 237.

[5] ?????????, ??????????? ?? ???????????? ?????, ?????, vol. 5, 1955, p. 174,
15-17.

[6] ?????, vol. 4, 1955, p. 128.

[7] The Rudder, p. 196.

[8] The Rudder, pp. 394-5.

[9] The Rudder, pp. 754-5.

[10] The Rudder, p. 965.

[11] The Rudder, p. 855.

[12] The Rudder, p. 855.

[13] The Introit of the Small Entrance of the Divine Liturgy.

[14] The 3rd Antiphon of the Divine Liturgy.

[15] I Cor. 14:25.

[16] ? ?????????? ?? ???? ?????????, ?????? ????????, ?????? 1948.

[17] ? ?????????? ... ???. ??. ?. 8. ????. ?lekej Dmitrievskij, Opisanie
Liturgitseskich Rukopisej, I, ??????, Kiev 1895 (repr. Hildesheim 1965), p.
812.

[18] ????????, ????. 33-34, 1948.

[19] ???????? 25-26 ?. 198.

[20] p. 5.

[21] ???????? 33-34, 1938.

[22] ???????? ??????????????, ?? ?????????????? ???? 2, ?? ??????? 1973, ??.
94-95.

[23] Ekklesia, issues 33-34, 1948, p. 280.

[24] Pedalion, p. 151.

[25] Ioannes Foundoulis, Liturgics, pp. 239-240.

[26] The Rudder, p. 965.

[27] Ibid.

[28] On this see further the article of The Most Reverend Metropolitan John of
Pergamon in the journal Synaxis, 51 (1994) 88-89. See also, Archimandrite
Kyrillos Kostopoulos, Sacred Tradition Regarding Kneeling: A Theological
Reference to the Jewish Sabbath and to the Lord’s Day, Athens 2000.


Source: Translated by Protopresbyter George Dion Dragas and edited by John
Sanidopoulos

http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2010/04/kneeling-in-church-on-sundays.html


--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

[++]

On Apr 16, 9:28 pm, Steve Hayes <hayes...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
> Kneeling In Church On Sundays
>

.........
>
> http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2010/04/kneeling-in-church-on-sundays...

>
> --
> Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
> Blog:http://khanya.wordpress.com
> E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

My take on this is that if people were raised in a tradition of
kneeling, then it should be tolerated, but not encouraged
specifically. Many converted former Uniate Carpathorussian parishes
in the US, for example, have older folks, the original converts to
Orthodoxy, that still kneel at certain parts of the service. They
sometimes bring their own kneeling pads for the occasion. They have
all learned not to teach others to kneel and those raised after the
conversions don't teach them not to. Not kneeling Sundays is,
however, in the church school literature taught in the Sunday schools
and enquirer classes...

What's your take on this?

[Steve Hayes]

I tend to agree with the late Archbishop of Athens -- that one should not
kneel on Sundays, or from Pascha till Pentecost.

[duke]

On Mon, 16 Apr 2012 20:32:34 -0700, Pete <*@*> wrote:

>On Tue, 17 Apr 2012 03:28:39 +0200, Steve Hayes <haye...@telkomsa.net>
>wrote:

>
>> The minor kneeling (genuflection) or repentance used in worship. St. Nikodemos
>> the Hagiorite is the one among the Fathers who clarifies that the prohibition
>> of kneeling on Sundays does not include the minor kneeling, the so-called
>> minor repentance, which we make when we venerate the holy icons. The Church
>> does not forbid practicing this type of genuflection in church on Sundays.

>> This is why we hear, 鼎ome let us worship and prostrate before Christ�納13]

>> These minor prostrations which are done in veneration are not forbidden. The
>> major kneeling, however, which involves bending the knee to the ground and
>> touching the floor with the forehead, is forbidden, because it is contrary to
>> the paschal and eschatological character of Sunday, i.e. to the joyful and
>> festive spirit, which, on this account, is incompatible with any sense of
>> mourning or contrition which is indicated by the major kneeling. This why the

>> Church sings: 典his is the Day which the Lord has made, let us rejoice and be
>> glad in It.納14]

>>
>> C. Other Views
>>
>> There are theologians, however, who do not agree with what we wrote above.
>> Here are their main arguments. When the Myrrh-bearing women met with the Risen
>> Lord they fell on his feet and venerated Him

>Venerate Jesus, venerate Icons, no big deal, it is all the same.?

>Worshiping Jesus is worship. Venerating? Weak, FAIL, venerating icons the
>same? It is clearly idolatry in this case.

Which only means that you are clueless as usual. We worship the Lord Jesus. To
venerate is only to hold in high esteem.

>Yet is was interesting to see the arguments about why it should be
>verboten. Heaven help the poor person who thanks God at an inappropriate
>times, probably be thrown out of the church.

No such thing in the RCC.

duke, American - American

*****
1 John 3:4-6
4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact,
sin is lawlessness. 5 But you know that he
appeared so that he might take away our sins.
And in him is no sin. 6 No one who lives in
him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to
sin has either seen him or known him.
*****

[RVG]

Le 17/04/2012 20:17, Pete a écrit :

> On Tue, 17 Apr 2012 10:55:26 -0500, duke<duckg...@cox.net> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 16 Apr 2012 20:32:34 -0700, Pete<*@*> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 17 Apr 2012 03:28:39 +0200, Steve Hayes<haye...@telkomsa.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The minor kneeling (genuflection) or repentance used in worship. St. Nikodemos
>>>> the Hagiorite is the one among the Fathers who clarifies that the prohibition
>>>> of kneeling on Sundays does not include the minor kneeling, the so-called
>>>> minor repentance, which we make when we venerate the holy icons. The Church
>>>> does not forbid practicing this type of genuflection in church on Sundays.

>>>> This is why we hear, “Come let us worship and prostrate before Christ…”[13]

>>>> These minor prostrations which are done in veneration are not forbidden. The
>>>> major kneeling, however, which involves bending the knee to the ground and
>>>> touching the floor with the forehead, is forbidden, because it is contrary to
>>>> the paschal and eschatological character of Sunday, i.e. to the joyful and
>>>> festive spirit, which, on this account, is incompatible with any sense of
>>>> mourning or contrition which is indicated by the major kneeling. This why the

>>>> Church sings: “This is the Day which the Lord has made, let us rejoice and be
>>>> glad in It.”[14]

>>>>
>>>> C. Other Views
>>>>
>>>> There are theologians, however, who do not agree with what we wrote above.
>>>> Here are their main arguments. When the Myrrh-bearing women met with the Risen
>>>> Lord they fell on his feet and venerated Him
>>
>>> Venerate Jesus, venerate Icons, no big deal, it is all the same.?
>>
>>> Worshiping Jesus is worship. Venerating? Weak, FAIL, venerating icons the
>>> same? It is clearly idolatry in this case.
>>
>> Which only means that you are clueless as usual. We worship the Lord Jesus. To
>> venerate is only to hold in high esteem.
>>
>

> Roaring laughter ensues.....Clueless? That was what I was saying. Yet they
> put Jesus in the same place as icons, or they put the same emphasis on
> icons as Jesus, meaning that they lied about veneration. But heh, you did
> catch on, even tho you were clueless.
>

You have a strong spirit of negation and you always want to have the
last word Peter, so so be it: you do what you want.


--
« Dieu n'est-il pas le poète suprême en tant qu'il improvise les mondes ? »
Vladimir Jankélévitch


http://rvgmusic.bandcamp.com/
http://www.jamendo.com/fr/user/RVG95
http://bluedusk.blogspot.com/

[RVG]

Le 17/04/2012 09:08, Steve Hayes a écrit :
> On Mon, 16 Apr 2012 21:59:00 -0700 (PDT), "++"<galj...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Apr 16, 9:28 pm, Steve Hayes<hayes...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>>> Kneeling In Church On Sundays
>>>
>> .........
>>>
>>> http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2010/04/kneeling-in-church-on-sundays...
>>>
>>> --
>>> Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
>>> Blog:http://khanya.wordpress.com
>>> E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
>>
>> My take on this is that if people were raised in a tradition of
>> kneeling, then it should be tolerated, but not encouraged
>> specifically. Many converted former Uniate Carpathorussian parishes
>> in the US, for example, have older folks, the original converts to
>> Orthodoxy, that still kneel at certain parts of the service. They
>> sometimes bring their own kneeling pads for the occasion. They have
>> all learned not to teach others to kneel and those raised after the
>> conversions don't teach them not to. Not kneeling Sundays is,
>> however, in the church school literature taught in the Sunday schools
>> and enquirer classes...
>>
>> What's your take on this?
>
> I tend to agree with the late Archbishop of Athens -- that one should not
> kneel on Sundays, or from Pascha till Pentecost.
>
>

These are all theatrical rituals. Jesus-Christ despised the churcgoers
(= the Pharisees) and granted the prayer of the Publican instead.

When you go to church and are not sure what to do on that day, ask the
priest/deacon/bishop whatever and do like the others. If you're not
actually filled with grace and you don't want to give your life to your
neighbour, anyway, your ritualistic salamalecs are in vain.

[RVG]

Le 17/04/2012 21:00, Pete a écrit :

> Hmmm, seems to me we are on the same page here.
>

Except that when I go to church I do what the other people do (except
the kneeling, God hasn't yet made me able to kneel down with a spine in
three pieces, unlike prophet Isaiah and St Seraphim of Sarov). If
something seems to me peculiar, I just use my prayer rope and say the
Jesus prayer to myself. I don't know what people have in their heart.
Some of them may be hypocrite, others may like the theatricality of the
church services as a mean to spend a positive moment in their otherwise
sad and broken lives, who knows ?
We're all falling under some burden, and eventually our cross will be
too heavy to lift, and we'll be crushed to death by it. It may be brief
and painless or long and obscene, we may spend our agony in Christ's
charity or forget God completely because our brain will be burned by
madness, but we won't avoid it, so...

[duke]

On Tue, 17 Apr 2012 11:17:03 -0700, Pete <*@*> wrote:

>On Tue, 17 Apr 2012 10:55:26 -0500, duke <duckg...@cox.net> wrote:
>

>Roaring laughter ensues.....Clueless? That was what I was saying.

You also said that to venerate Jesus is weak and a failure like venerating an
idol.

>Yet they
>put Jesus in the same place as icons

See, no we don't. That just shows you how clueless you are, and a fool to boot.

>, or they put the same emphasis on
>icons as Jesus, meaning that they lied about veneration. But heh, you did
>catch on, even tho you were clueless.

Well, you do have problems with clarity in your words. I've seen that many
times.

>>>Yet is was interesting to see the arguments about why it should be
>>>verboten. Heaven help the poor person who thanks God at an inappropriate
>>>times, probably be thrown out of the church.

>> No such thing in the RCC.

See, you showed your butt once again in making stupid comments. At least you
didn't try to bail yourself out.

[duke]

That's why he's so ignorant of truth.

[duke]

On Tue, 17 Apr 2012 11:56:13 -0700, Pete <*@*> wrote:

>On Tue, 17 Apr 2012 20:42:51 +0200, RVG <not....@themoment.invalid.org>
>wrote:
>

>I never heard of that spirit.

You typically get it from satan. And now you know.

>When someone says something that contradicts
>the Bible I do have a tendency to not let it rest. If that is what you
>mean. I don't want someone to tell me in the end that I knew but never told
>them.

But you don't understand the bible anyway.

>This isn't the first time I saw someone equate Jesus with an icon, or you
>could say equate and icon with Jesus.

And you dreamed it this time.

> Yet everyone in the EO would argue
>the point of how they worship or don't worship icons.

That's right. Christians do not.

> When I pointed out
>that bending the knee to an object was worship everyone denied they did it,
>yet in this article it was argued about simply because that is what the
>normal EO would do.

But nobody bends a knee to an object. That's where you fail. That's where you
clearly show you don't understand what you're seeing or is happening.

>That whole article reminded me of the Pharisee and their discussions over
>minutia one of the things Jesus chastised them for. I pitied the EO having
>to go through that and those who took it seriously.

Well, you don't follow Jesus in his teachings, so what's the difference.