Easter and the pagan goddess
Steve Hayes
legends about Easter -- the notion that it originated with a goddess called
Eostre or Ostara who was associated with hares and eggs.
The only reference I could find to this was the Venerable Bede, who recorded
that the old English name for April was Eostremonath, from which the modern
English word "Easter" comes, and he thought it was named after a goddess
Eostre, about whom nothing more is known.
As one blogger notes, "Jacob Grimm took up this remark of Bede, taking the
German name for the month, Ostara, as the name of a Germanic fertility
goddess. The Icelandic sagas, our primary source for Germanic paganism, make
no mention of such a goddess."
And suddenly things fall into place for me.
Christianity was spread in Germany largely by English missionaries (Boniface,
Willibrord & Co), whose ancestors had migrated from Germany only a few
generations before. At that time the languages had probably not diverged very
much, so the English and German dialects were probably mutually intelligible.
In such circumstances it is quite conceivable that the German Christians took
over the English missionaries’ word for Pascha, which in German became Ostern.
I’m rather surprised that Grimm, as a linguist and philologist, didn’t
apparently think of this. It’s also interesting that this didn’t happen to the
Dutch, for whom Pascha became Paas, since they were also largely evangelised
by English missionaries, but they were also closer to the Franks/Gauls, and
were perhaps influenced by them.
Anyone interested in the full story with links can check my blog at:
http://khanya.wordpress.com/2008/03/22/easter-for-some/
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Someone else
<haye...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>At last I think I have discovered the source
No, you have not.
>of one of the persistent urban legends about Easter
It is not an urban myth...but you are a Christian apologist that's
keen to downgrade other religious beliefs. If these thoughts are
forming part of an academic submission, I earnestly hope that your
supervisor is worth his salt and pulls you up.
> -- the notion that it originated with a goddess called
>Eostre or Ostara who was associated with hares and eggs.
The Eastern Star, the first star of the morning symbolizing the return
of the Sun. The hares and the eggs are, obviously, related to new
life.
>The only reference I could find to this was the Venerable Bede, who recorded
>that the old English name for April was Eostremonath, from which the modern
>English word "Easter" comes, and he thought it was named after a goddess
>Eostre, about whom nothing more is known.
Plainly there is a linkage between 'Ostar-manoth' and
'Eostur-monath'...you seem over-willing to neglect such possibilities.
Again, it would seem, this is consistent with your Christian apologist
position.
Charlemagne (c. 742 or 747 - 814), destroyer of Heathen sacred places,
gave the months names in his own language and used 'Ostar-manoth' for
April.
Grimm also notes various accounts of the name of the Easter festival
in Old High German, like ôstertagâ or aostortagâ.
>As one blogger notes, "Jacob Grimm took up this remark of Bede, taking the
>German name for the month, Ostara, as the name of a Germanic fertility
>goddess. The Icelandic sagas, our primary source for Germanic paganism, make
>no mention of such a goddess."
Remember, that Iceland was more removed geographically *and* that the
Sagas were written in the late 12th early 13th Centuries (sometime
between 1178 and September 23, 1241) whereas Bonniface's missions
began in 716 CE...that's a temporal displacement of roughly (because
we don't know the exact date that Snorri wrote the Eddas down) 500
years but you don't mention that...shoddy.
Also, you're neglecting to mention Austri from the Gylfaginning,
>And suddenly things fall into place for me.
>
>Christianity was spread in Germany largely by English missionaries (Boniface,
>Willibrord & Co), whose ancestors had migrated from Germany only a few
>generations before.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Christian_missions
200 CE - First Christians are reported in Switzerland and Belgium
637 CE - Lombards, a German people living in northern Italy, become
Christians
689 CE - Pagans kill Irish missionary Kilian near Würzburg in what is
now Germany. His remains will be buried in a Benedictine abbey in
Würzburg.
An *Irish* missionary in 689 (wouldn't have been speaking Old German
or Saxon but Latin or Greek (and Gaelic if anyone could understand
it)).
716 - Boniface begins missionary work among Germanic tribes
724 - Boniface fells pagan sacred oak of Thor at Geismar in Hesse.
That's one thing that we object to about Christianity...it talks of
being a religion of peace but has shown, by its actions, that it is
not.
>At that time the languages had probably not diverged very
>much, so the English and German dialects were probably mutually intelligible.
They probably were but still not exactly the same language either and
there was no standardised spelling back then either which has the
consequence that Eostre, Ostar, Eostur, Austri
>In such circumstances it is quite conceivable that the German Christians took
>over the English missionaries’ word for Pascha, which in German became Ostern.
>
>I’m rather surprised that Grimm, as a linguist and philologist, didn’t
>apparently think of this.
You're suprised because you still have much to learn/prejudices to
overcome.
> It’s also interesting that this didn’t happen to the
>Dutch, for whom Pascha became Paas, since they were also largely evangelised
>by English missionaries, but they were also closer to the Franks/Gauls, and
>were perhaps influenced by them.
>
>Anyone interested in the full story with links can check my blog at:
>
>http://khanya.wordpress.com/2008/03/22/easter-for-some/
Like I said, you're a Christian apologist.
Your God created you with a mind, use it.
Nik
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Steve Hayes
<republican_...@email.com> wrote:
>On Sun, 23 Mar 2008 14:25:30 +0200, Steve Hayes
><haye...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>At last I think I have discovered the source
>
>No, you have not.
OK, do you have a better one?
>
>>of one of the persistent urban legends about Easter
>> -- the notion that it originated with a goddess called
>>Eostre or Ostara who was associated with hares and eggs.
>
>The Eastern Star, the first star of the morning symbolizing the return
>of the Sun. The hares and the eggs are, obviously, related to new
>life.
Obviously, to you.
But that's not the point.
I'm trying to discover the source of their being linked to Eostre.
>>The only reference I could find to this was the Venerable Bede, who recorded
>>that the old English name for April was Eostremonath, from which the modern
>>English word "Easter" comes, and he thought it was named after a goddess
>>Eostre, about whom nothing more is known.
>
>Plainly there is a linkage between 'Ostar-manoth' and
>'Eostur-monath'...you seem over-willing to neglect such possibilities.
Your arguments mightr be more convincing if you could back them up with
something other than gratuitous ad hominems.
>Charlemagne (c. 742 or 747 - 814), destroyer of Heathen sacred places,
>gave the months names in his own language and used 'Ostar-manoth' for
>April.
Interesting point.
>Grimm also notes various accounts of the name of the Easter festival
>in Old High German, like ôstertagâ or aostortagâ.
Makes sense.
>>As one blogger notes, "Jacob Grimm took up this remark of Bede, taking the
>>German name for the month, Ostara, as the name of a Germanic fertility
>>goddess. The Icelandic sagas, our primary source for Germanic paganism, make
>>no mention of such a goddess."
>
>Remember, that Iceland was more removed geographically *and* that the
>Sagas were written in the late 12th early 13th Centuries (sometime
>between 1178 and September 23, 1241) whereas Bonniface's missions
>began in 716 CE...that's a temporal displacement of roughly (because
>we don't know the exact date that Snorri wrote the Eddas down) 500
>years but you don't mention that...shoddy.
Good point, apart from the ad hominem, and one that had occurred to me.
Also the Icelandic sagas were written by Christians, and so were filtered
through a Christian mindset, which was also the case with Bede, even though he
wrote several centuries earlier.
>Also, you're neglecting to mention Austri from the Gylfaginning,
So, enlighten me.
athair ambrois
any way resembling the word "Easter". Rather than the term being
derived from a goddess, the supposed goddess is derived from the term.
She was postulated by certain 19th century Germanic scholars in an
attempt to explain the etymology of the word. These same scholars
(foremost among them the Grimm brothers, famous for their folk-tale
collections and less well-known as the discoverers of the "Indo-
European" linguistic family) had a very definite nationalist/ethnic
agenda in which they were trying to rediscover the "real" roots of
German culture. Thus the folk-tale collection's avowed purpose was to
search for "survivals" of pre-Christian Germanic religion and culture.
The later connection of this invented figure to Astarte was sheer
fundamentalist propaganda based on a coincidental similarity in sound.
Having dismissed Nativity/Christmas because it's timing coincides with
a number of pagan solar festivals, those fundamentalist groups which
criticise all celebration of "holy days" thereby sought to discredit
"Easter" whose general timing is well laid out in the Bible. If there
was a connection, it would be the only case of a Sumerian/Canaanite
word coming into the Germanic languages without first passing through
Hebrew and/or Greek into Latin and then into Germanic via the medium
of Christianity.
There is some by no means conclusive evidence of a festival or holy
day connected to the spring solstice. However, every recorded instance
of the word's usage has clear Christian connotations (i.e., if it ever
was a pagan festival, it had effectively disappeared by the time
people wrote using the term "Easter"). As to why this word is used in
English and German: It is used in German for the simple reason that
the pagans of modern-day Germany were missionised by Anglo-Saxon
Christians such as St. Willibrord or the two St. Hewalds. The Germans
thus got "Easter" from their missionaries in the same way the Russians
got "Pascha".
Although the Grimm Brothers probably did conflate the issue, the
goddess Eostre may be a valid concept. However, the only mention of a
goddess Eostre is recorded in Bede's 8th century 'De tempore
Ratione"('On the Reckoning of Time) - the book which helped popularise
BC/AD dating. Since there is no other corroborating evidence Bede may
be mistaken. However the term for Pascha was not named from this
doubtful Goddess. Instead it is most likely that Easter (Pascha) comes
from the Saxon month of Eostre (April) which was used for the spring
period.
In other words, the term 'Easter' no more honours Eostre than a
'Wednesday Night Service' at your local Protestant church honours Odin
(Wednesday=Woden's Day).
In England itself, this is the type of theoretical issue Anglo-
Saxonists enjoy arguing. There appears to have been a very strong
cultural bias among the Anglo-Saxons against other languages. While
their Latin missionaries and then their own churchmen obviously knew
and used Latin, there was remarkably little borrowing from Latin into
English at this time. In almost every instance, the English Church
took existing English words to express ecclesiastical terms (thus
"sanctus" was translated by "haelig" [holy, healthy, whole] and Old
English uses haelige John not St. John, "haeliged" [hallowed] rather
than sanctified, etc) rather than simply borrowing the Latin (the
modern preponderance of Latin loan words for ecclesiastical terms is a
product of the post 1066 Norman invasion) In addition to Latin books,
Old English had the most active vernacular literature (primarily
Christian) of any Western area prior to the millennium. There is an
extant translation of the gospel of John which is the oldest
translation of the Bible into a western vernacular with the exception
of Bishop Wulfilas Arian translations into Gothic (itself another
Germanic language).
IOW, the presence of the word "Easter" is actually a product of the
vibrant "Orthodoxy" of the Anglo-Saxon Church which unlike later
periods did not
suppress the resident culture in favour of an all-embracing Latinism
but rather transformed (in accord with the guidelines given to St.
Augustine of Canterbury by St. Gregory the Great) the entire language
and culture. Although I myself generally use "Pascha" because it is
the common usage among Orthodox now, I find attempts to dismiss as
"pagan" a true survival of English Orthodoxy very problematic.
Word-list (from J.R. Clarke-Hall's _A Concise Anglo-Saxon Dictionary_)
*east* I. adj. east, easterly. II. adv. eastwards, in an easterly
direction,
in or from the east
*eastan* from the east, easterly
*eastanwind* east wind
*eastcyning* eastern king
*eastdael* eastern quarter, the East
*easte* the East
*eastende* east-end, east quarter
*Eastengle* the East Anglians: East Anglia
*Easteraefen* Easter-eve
*Easterdaeg* Easter-day, Easter Sunday
*Easterfaestan* Easter-fast, Lent
*Easterfeorm* feast of Easter
*Easterfreolsdaeg* the feast day of Passover
*Eastergewuna* Easter custom (appears only in the 9th century sermons
of
Aelfric where he is reffering to Christian Easter practices)
*Easterlic* belonging to Easter, Paschal
*Eastermonath* Easter-month, April
*Easterne* east, eastern, oriental
*Easterniht* Easter-night
*Eastersunnandaeg* Easter Sunday
*Eastersymble* Passover (lit. Easter gathering)
*Eastertid* Eastertide, Paschal season
*Easterthenung* Passover
*Easterwucu* Easter Week
and then we return to compounds of "east-" [eastern x] except for the
nominative
*Eastre* Easter, Passover, (possibly) Spring.
Furthermore, there does not seem to be *any* English form of the word
"Pascha"; Orthodox England never called the feast anything but Easter.
And while I find the etymological connection of Easter and astiehen
(to rise up) doubtful, the *pun* of Eastre, astah (risen) is very
obvious in Anglo-Saxon.
Steve Hayes
wrote:
>There is absolutely no evidence for a Germanic goddess with a name in
>any way resembling the word "Easter". Rather than the term being
>derived from a goddess, the supposed goddess is derived from the term.
>She was postulated by certain 19th century Germanic scholars in an
>attempt to explain the etymology of the word. These same scholars
>(foremost among them the Grimm brothers, famous for their folk-tale
>collections and less well-known as the discoverers of the "Indo-
>European" linguistic family) had a very definite nationalist/ethnic
>agenda in which they were trying to rediscover the "real" roots of
>German culture. Thus the folk-tale collection's avowed purpose was to
>search for "survivals" of pre-Christian Germanic religion and culture.
It's interesting that 19th-century Greek folklorists tried to do much the same
thing, and possibly under the same influence that gave rise to the Central and
Eastern European romantic nationalism that is still having repercussions today
(eg in Kosovo). The Greek thesis has been pretty conclusively debunked by
Charles Stewart in his "Demons and the devil: moral imagination in modern
Greek culture".
>The later connection of this invented figure to Astarte was sheer
>fundamentalist propaganda based on a coincidental similarity in sound.
>Having dismissed Nativity/Christmas because it's timing coincides with
>a number of pagan solar festivals, those fundamentalist groups which
>criticise all celebration of "holy days" thereby sought to discredit
>"Easter" whose general timing is well laid out in the Bible. If there
>was a connection, it would be the only case of a Sumerian/Canaanite
>word coming into the Germanic languages without first passing through
>Hebrew and/or Greek into Latin and then into Germanic via the medium
>of Christianity.
I've found that they usually cit Alexander Hislop's "The two Babylons", but
when I eventually did manage to get hold of a copy, I found Hislop wasn't as
insane or unscholarly as the impression they managed to give of him. Many of
them misquoted hom, or quoted him in support of views or "facts" that his book
did not support at all.
>In other words, the term 'Easter' no more honours Eostre than a
>'Wednesday Night Service' at your local Protestant church honours Odin
>(Wednesday=Woden's Day).
<Grin>
>Furthermore, there does not seem to be *any* English form of the word
>"Pascha"; Orthodox England never called the feast anything but Easter.
>And while I find the etymological connection of Easter and astiehen
>(to rise up) doubtful, the *pun* of Eastre, astah (risen) is very
>obvious in Anglo-Saxon.
I have heard the term "Paschal Candle" among English Anglicans, but perhaps
that is because the Anglicans had abandoned the practice for several centuries
and then borrowed it back via Rome, using the Roman term.
Someone else
<haye...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 11:48:35 +1300, Someone else
><republican_...@email.com> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 23 Mar 2008 14:25:30 +0200, Steve Hayes
>><haye...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>At last I think I have discovered the source
>>
>>No, you have not.
>
>OK, do you have a better one?
Yes, read on and you will see.
>>>of one of the persistent urban legends about Easter
>
>>> -- the notion that it originated with a goddess called
>>>Eostre or Ostara who was associated with hares and eggs.
>>
>>The Eastern Star, the first star of the morning symbolizing the return
>>of the Sun. The hares and the eggs are, obviously, related to new
>>life.
>
>Obviously, to you.
Obviously to anyone mature enough to be studying the topic I would
have thought.
>But that's not the point.
>
>I'm trying to discover the source of their being linked to Eostre.
It is the coming of spring and new life...
>>>The only reference I could find to this was the Venerable Bede, who recorded
>>>that the old English name for April was Eostremonath, from which the modern
>>>English word "Easter" comes, and he thought it was named after a goddess
>>>Eostre, about whom nothing more is known.
>>
>>Plainly there is a linkage between 'Ostar-manoth' and
>>'Eostur-monath'...you seem over-willing to neglect such possibilities.
>
>Your arguments mightr be more convincing if you could back them up with
>something other than gratuitous ad hominems.
<laughter>
Taking a page out of my book there...accusing me of ad
homines...saying what you're saying though, is, in and of itself ad
hominem...
Anyway, you haven't dealt with the obvious linguistic similarity
between 'Ostar-manoth' and 'Eostur-monath' and justify your avoidance
of doing so by accusing me of ad homine.
How abouts you answer the question?
Do you think that there is no connection between the Old English of
Saint Bede's term 'Eostre', the Old German of Charlemagne 'Ostar',
>>Charlemagne (c. 742 or 747 - 814), destroyer of Heathen sacred places,
>>gave the months names in his own language and used 'Ostar-manoth' for
>>April.
>
>Interesting point.
>
>>Grimm also notes various accounts of the name of the Easter festival
>>in Old High German, like ôstertagâ or aostortagâ.
>
>Makes sense.
>
>>>As one blogger notes, "Jacob Grimm took up this remark of Bede, taking the
>>>German name for the month, Ostara, as the name of a Germanic fertility
>>>goddess. The Icelandic sagas, our primary source for Germanic paganism, make
>>>no mention of such a goddess."
In 1835, Jacob Grimm referred to Bede when he proposed an equivalent
Old High German name, *Ostara, in his work Deutsche Mythologie.
>>Remember, that Iceland was more removed geographically *and* that the
>>Sagas were written in the late 12th early 13th Centuries (sometime
>>between 1178 and September 23, 1241) whereas Bonniface's missions
>>began in 716 CE...that's a temporal displacement of roughly (because
>>we don't know the exact date that Snorri wrote the Eddas down) 500
>>years but you don't mention that...shoddy.
>
>Good point, apart from the ad hominem, and one that had occurred to me.
Why didn't you mention that then?
It seems bleedingly obvious to me as something to be commented on
because languages change over time and we're talking about half a
millenia along with the relative geographical isolation of
Iceland...the language of the English and the Icelanders, as you
infer, would have been mutually intelligible now as say Norwegian (the
Oslo variety) and Swedish are now but they've diverged and have
diverged considerably over 500 years.
>Also the Icelandic sagas were written by Christians,
The Heathen faith lived on in parallel for several centuries, indeed
many Heathens took on Jesus as another God in the Asa pantheon. The
Icelandic Eddas were written down by Snorri Sturluson who nonetheless
received the Sagas, directly or indirectly from Tru Heathens.
> and so were filtered through a Christian mindset,
People often make that claim, for varying reasons. It is the extent of
that influence that is debateable but perhaps difficult to resolve.
The Saga of Balder, for example, is often cited as an example of
exactly the claim your making.
I'm not yet convinced of that myself...the Heathen viewpoint is one of
continual cyclical reincarnation back into our family line until one
lives the perfect life and ascends to Asgard on their final Earthly
death. I see that the very survival of Ases through Ragnarok, as
prophesied, is inherently Heathen and hence I reject the suggestion
that Balder's rebirth is some sort of conscious copying of Jesus.
>which was also the case with Bede, even though he
>wrote several centuries earlier.
I am personally satisfied that that is definitely the case with Bede
but I'm not at all sure that Snorri, for example, was a 100%
Christian.
>>Also, you're neglecting to mention Austri from the Gylfaginning,
>
>So, enlighten me.
http://www.hi.is/~eybjorn/gg/ggrpar06.html
Þá mælti Þriði: "Tóku þeir ok haus hans ok gerðu þar af himin ok
settu hann upp yfir jörðina með fjórum skautum, ok undir hvert horn
settu þeir dverg. Þeir heita svá: Austri, Vestri, Norði, Suðri
^^^^^^
Or in, partially translated, English:
And these, says the Sibyl, are their names:
Nýi and Nidi, | Nordri and Sudri,
Austri, Vestri, | Althjófr, Dvalinn;
^^^^^^
Again...its Eastern Star stuff...one can see it in the name for the
country 'Austria'.
Eostre is derived from the Proto-Germanic root *aew-s, "illuminate,
especially of daybreak" and closely related to (a)wes-ter- "dawn
servant", the dawn star Venus and *austrôn-, meaning "dawn, east"
(compare ostar-rîchi "Eastern Realm, Austria"), cognate to the names
of Greek Eos, Roman Aurora and Indian Ushas, all continuing
Proto-Indo-European.
This is the point where you capitulate, go away to find another point
to argue about.
I'm interested, though in the fact that you've deliberately censored
my comments where I state that you're a Christian apologist.
Why did you do that?
Someone else
<em...@globe.net.nz> wrote:
>There is absolutely no evidence for a Germanic goddess with a name in
>any way resembling the word "Easter".
There is a heap of evidence that the term Easter is ultimately of
Heathen origin.
> Rather than the term being
>derived from a goddess, the supposed goddess is derived from the term.
>She was postulated by certain 19th century Germanic scholars in an
>attempt to explain the etymology of the word.
But Saint Bede, CE 672 - CE 735 was plainly *not* a 19th Century
Germanic scholar was he?
>These same scholars (foremost among them the Grimm brothers, famous for their folk-tale
>collections and less well-known as the discoverers of the "Indo-
>European" linguistic family) had a very definite nationalist/ethnic
>agenda in which they were trying to rediscover the "real" roots of
>German culture.
I see this line of argument as the beginning of a smear attempt...but
please, do go on.
>Thus the folk-tale collection's avowed purpose was to
>search for "survivals" of pre-Christian Germanic religion and culture.
Why shouldn't they?
>The later connection of this invented figure to Astarte
Her symbols were the lion, the horse, the sphinx, the dove, and a star
within a circle indicating the planet Venus.
I hadn't made the connection, in past myself but I do now...
> was sheer fundamentalist propaganda based on a coincidental similarity in sound.
Your evidence for that will need to explain away the commonality, to
*all* of the examples I've given to the 'Eastern Star, the bright star
of the morning - Venus'.
>Having dismissed Nativity/Christmas because it's timing coincides with
>a number of pagan solar festivals,
Plainly the Biblical account of Christ's birth does not coincide with
him being born in late December...there are shepherd out in the field
with their sheep, for example, in Bethlehem in late December the sheep
would have all been inside with their shepherds due to the cold. Or
consider what it was that Joseph and Mary were doing at the time of
their trip to Bethlehem, they were returning the city of Joseph's
birth by the command of the Roman Governor to participate in a
census...now what time of the year, in the ancient world, would have
been the time of census?
Harvest time...late September/October...not December.
Also, the fact of the matter is that the 25th of December is almost
smack on the time of Sol Invictus and Yuletide...hence the saying that
still survives in common vernacular, 'Yuletide Greetings'.
>those fundamentalist groups which
>criticise all celebration of "holy days" thereby sought to discredit
>"Easter" whose general timing is well laid out in the Bible.
>If there was a connection, it would be the only case of a Sumerian/Canaanite
>word coming into the Germanic languages without first passing through
>Hebrew and/or Greek into Latin and then into Germanic via the medium
>of Christianity.
What is the word, in Aramaic then? What is the word for that time in
Helenic Greek?
>There is some by no means conclusive evidence of a festival or holy
>day connected to the spring solstice.
I would have it that there is absolutely no evidence of any sort
whatsoever that there was a festival on the 'spring solstice' because
there is no 'spring solstice' but there is a 'spring equinox' around
20-21 March.
>However, every recorded instance
>of the word's usage has clear Christian connotations (i.e., if it ever
>was a pagan festival, it had effectively disappeared
You cannot prove a negative. You cannot prove that there aren't, right
now, Heathens within 100 kilometres of your home for example...its a
logical impossibility.
For more reading on this particular fallacy the entry found at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_proof
is quite good.
> by the time people wrote using the term "Easter").
Bede described the Heathen worship of Eostre among the
Anglo-Saxons...and he was writing at a time not much more than 100
years after the beginning, in earnest, of the conversion of the
Anglo-Saxons to Christianity...its not long enough time period for
what you're trying to suggest.
> As to why this word is used in English and German: It is used in German for the simple reason that
>the pagans of modern-day Germany were missionised by Anglo-Saxon
>Christians such as St. Willibrord or the two St. Hewalds. The Germans
>thus got "Easter" from their missionaries in the same way the Russians
>got "Pascha".
Considering that Charlemagne (CE 740s - CE 814) King of the Franks -
a Germanic tribe used the term 'Ostar-manoth' for April I find your
suggestion unsustainable.
>Although the Grimm Brothers probably did conflate the issue, the
>goddess Eostre may be a valid concept. However, the only mention of a
>goddess Eostre is recorded in Bede's 8th century 'De tempore
>Ratione"('On the Reckoning of Time) - the book which helped popularise
>BC/AD dating.
Please see the my other reply to Mr Hayes for detailed discussion
regarding this point.
>Since there is no other corroborating evidence Bede may
>be mistaken.
There is an unmistakeable mound of evidence.
> However the term for Pascha was not named from this
>doubtful Goddess. Instead it is most likely that Easter (Pascha) comes
>from the Saxon month of Eostre (April) which was used for the spring
>period.
And where did the Saxons come from to start with oh clever one?
Here you go, I'll tell you, Holstein...in Northern Germany...
>In other words, the term 'Easter' no more honours Eostre than a
>'Wednesday Night Service' at your local Protestant church honours Odin
>(Wednesday=Woden's Day).
Ah well...there's an interesting point...for a start you use the term
'Wednesday' yourself...clearly of Heathen origin, you admit so
yourself but you have difficulty with the term 'Easter' being of
Heathe origin for some bizarre reason.
Meditate, for a moment on the notion that Protestantism, particularly
Lutheranism and Calvinism, is Germanic Christianity. The 'Protestant
Work Ethic', for example already existed in the Germanic Heathen mind
prior to the arrival of Christianity as can be seen in the Havamal:
Arla stige upp som har arbetsfolk få,
och tage med sin syssla i tu!
Mycket försinkas för den, om morgonen sover;
rask är till hälften rik.
Av torrt trä och taknäver
en man måttet känner, och vad ved
vara kan ett helt kvartal eller halvår.
English:
He must rise betimes who hath few to serve him,
and see to his work himself;
who sleeps at morning is hindered much,
to the keen is wealth half-won.
Of dry logs saved and roof-bark stored
a man can know the measure,
of fire-wood too which should last him out
quarter and half years to come.
>In England itself, this is the type of theoretical issue Anglo-
>Saxonists enjoy arguing. There appears to have been a very strong
>cultural bias among the Anglo-Saxons against other languages.
Anglo-Saxon and the Norwegian and Danish, of the time were mutually
intelligible if people chose their words carefully. If there was a
bias, it wasn't against other Germanic languages.
>While their Latin missionaries and then their own churchmen obviously knew
>and used Latin, there was remarkably little borrowing from Latin into
>English at this time.
So what?
> In almost every instance, the English Church
>took existing English words to express ecclesiastical terms (thus
>"sanctus" was translated by "haelig" [holy, healthy, whole] and Old
>English uses haelige John not St. John, "haeliged" [hallowed] rather
>than sanctified, etc) rather than simply borrowing the Latin
Which is what happened to Easter/Eostre/Ostar etc etc...
> (the modern preponderance of Latin loan words for ecclesiastical terms is a
>product of the post 1066 Norman invasion)
Indeed.
> In addition to Latin books,
>Old English had the most active vernacular literature (primarily
>Christian) of any Western area prior to the millennium.
Can you prove that point?
> There is an extant translation of the gospel of John which is the oldest
>translation of the Bible into a western vernacular with the exception
>of Bishop Wulfilas Arian translations into Gothic (itself another
>Germanic language).
>
>IOW, the presence of the word "Easter" is actually a product of the
>vibrant "Orthodoxy" of the Anglo-Saxon Church which unlike later
>periods did not suppress the resident culture in favour of an all-embracing Latinism
>but rather transformed (in accord with the guidelines given to St.
>Augustine of Canterbury by St. Gregory the Great) the entire language
>and culture.
Right.
> Although I myself generally use "Pascha" because it is
>the common usage among Orthodox now, I find attempts to dismiss as
>"pagan" a true survival of English Orthodoxy very problematic.
That is what Mr Hayes seems to be attempting to do.
It makes the connection between the terms 'Easter' and 'Eostre'
undeniable.
Someone else
<haye...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 00:29:05 -0700 (PDT), athair ambrois <em...@globe.net.nz>
>wrote:
>
>>There is absolutely no evidence for a Germanic goddess with a name in
>>any way resembling the word "Easter". Rather than the term being
>>derived from a goddess, the supposed goddess is derived from the term.
>>She was postulated by certain 19th century Germanic scholars in an
>>attempt to explain the etymology of the word. These same scholars
>>(foremost among them the Grimm brothers, famous for their folk-tale
>>collections and less well-known as the discoverers of the "Indo-
>>European" linguistic family) had a very definite nationalist/ethnic
>>agenda in which they were trying to rediscover the "real" roots of
>>German culture. Thus the folk-tale collection's avowed purpose was to
>>search for "survivals" of pre-Christian Germanic religion and culture.
>
>It's interesting that 19th-century Greek folklorists tried to do much the same
>thing, and possibly under the same influence that gave rise to the Central and
>Eastern European romantic nationalism that is still having repercussions today
>(eg in Kosovo). The Greek thesis has been pretty conclusively debunked by
>Charles Stewart in his "Demons and the devil: moral imagination in modern
>Greek culture".
Can you provide his argument and evidence rather than just making the
claim and expecting us to go along with it?
>>The later connection of this invented figure to Astarte was sheer
>>fundamentalist propaganda based on a coincidental similarity in sound.
>>Having dismissed Nativity/Christmas because it's timing coincides with
>>a number of pagan solar festivals, those fundamentalist groups which
>>criticise all celebration of "holy days" thereby sought to discredit
>>"Easter" whose general timing is well laid out in the Bible. If there
>>was a connection, it would be the only case of a Sumerian/Canaanite
>>word coming into the Germanic languages without first passing through
>>Hebrew and/or Greek into Latin and then into Germanic via the medium
>>of Christianity.
>
>I've found that they usually cit Alexander Hislop's "The two Babylons", but
>when I eventually did manage to get hold of a copy, I found Hislop wasn't as
>insane or unscholarly as the impression they managed to give of him. Many of
>them misquoted hom, or quoted him in support of views or "facts" that his book
>did not support at all.
>
>>In other words, the term 'Easter' no more honours Eostre than a
>>'Wednesday Night Service' at your local Protestant church honours Odin
>>(Wednesday=Woden's Day).
>
><Grin>
It amuses me, far more, that the vast bulk of modern English speaking
Christians use the term Wednesday in unconscious honour of Odin on a
frequent basis.
>>Furthermore, there does not seem to be *any* English form of the word
>>"Pascha"; Orthodox England never called the feast anything but Easter.
>>And while I find the etymological connection of Easter and astiehen
>>(to rise up) doubtful, the *pun* of Eastre, astah (risen) is very
>>obvious in Anglo-Saxon.
>
>I have heard the term "Paschal Candle" among English Anglicans, but perhaps
>that is because the Anglicans had abandoned the practice for several centuries
>and then borrowed it back via Rome, using the Roman term.
I've heard Catholics use the term 'Paschal' to refer to Holy
Week...similarly the Germanic word 'Holy' and the Latinate word
'Sacred' are synonyms...
duke
>At last I think I have discovered the source of one of the persistent urban
>legends about Easter -- the notion that it originated with a goddess called
>Eostre or Ostara who was associated with hares and eggs.
It's for pre-school children only.
duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
> On Sun, 23 Mar 2008 14:25:30 +0200, Steve Hayes <haye...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> At last I think I have discovered the source of one of the persistent urban
>> legends about Easter -- the notion that it originated with a goddess called
>> Eostre or Ostara who was associated with hares and eggs.
>
> It's for pre-school children only.
That's fine by us - let us form their beliefs.
FFF
Dirk
http://www.transcendence.me.uk/ - Transcendence UK
Remote Viewing classes in London
bowman
>>At last I think I have discovered the source of one of the persistent
>>urban legends about Easter -- the notion that it originated with a goddess
>>called Eostre or Ostara who was associated with hares and eggs.
>
> It's for pre-school children only.
The hares and eggs? Were I completely unfamiliar with the Christian religion
and wandered through a supermarket this time of year, I'd assume there was
some pagan festival that included edible chocolate hares, a variety of
marshmallow eggs and chicks, coloring real eggs, and consuming quantities
of cured pork products.
Steve Hayes
No, because (a) it was an aside, and not really the topic here, and (b) it
would necessitate a trip to the library to take out his book again, and I have
other things to do right now. I don't expect you to go along with it, but if
you're sufficiently interested I'm sure you could find a copy of his book.
Steve Hayes
<republican_...@email.com> wrote:
>On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 00:29:05 -0700 (PDT), athair ambrois
><em...@globe.net.nz> wrote:
>
>>There is absolutely no evidence for a Germanic goddess with a name in
>>any way resembling the word "Easter".
>
>There is a heap of evidence that the term Easter is ultimately of
>Heathen origin.
Thn, to quote what you said elsewhere,
>Can you provide his argument and evidence rather than just making the
>claim and expecting us to go along with it?
... could you give us the evidence instead of just making the claim and
expecting us to go along with it.
>> by the time people wrote using the term "Easter").
>
>Bede described the Heathen worship of Eostre among the
>Anglo-Saxons...and he was writing at a time not much more than 100
>years after the beginning, in earnest, of the conversion of the
>Anglo-Saxons to Christianity...its not long enough time period for
>what you're trying to suggest.
Where did he describe it?
Can you quote the passage, or at least a reference to it?
Steve Hayes
<republican_...@email.com> wrote:
>On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 09:01:59 +0200, Steve Hayes
><haye...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>Also the Icelandic sagas were written by Christians,
>
>The Heathen faith lived on in parallel for several centuries, indeed
>many Heathens took on Jesus as another God in the Asa pantheon. The
>Icelandic Eddas were written down by Snorri Sturluson who nonetheless
>received the Sagas, directly or indirectly from Tru Heathens.
>
>> and so were filtered through a Christian mindset,
>
>People often make that claim, for varying reasons. It is the extent of
>that influence that is debateable but perhaps difficult to resolve.
>The Saga of Balder, for example, is often cited as an example of
>exactly the claim your making.
I'm not really "making a claim", I'm simply pointing out something that one
should bear in mind when interpretin g historical documents (or any documents
for that matter. You have said that I am a Christian apologist. So was Bede.
In evaluating the content of a document you need to consider the writer's
relationship to the events and people described in the document.
I'm not purporting to determine the extent to which Bede or Snorri's writing
was shaped by their Christian worldview, but just saying that since they were
Christians writing about pre-Christians societies one needs to be aware of
possible Christian bias in what they wrote. I'll leave it to specialists in
the period to try to determine the extent of the bias.
>
>I'm not yet convinced of that myself...the Heathen viewpoint is one of
>continual cyclical reincarnation back into our family line until one
>lives the perfect life and ascends to Asgard on their final Earthly
>death. I see that the very survival of Ases through Ragnarok, as
>prophesied, is inherently Heathen and hence I reject the suggestion
>that Balder's rebirth is some sort of conscious copying of Jesus.
>
>>which was also the case with Bede, even though he
>>wrote several centuries earlier.
>
>I am personally satisfied that that is definitely the case with Bede
>but I'm not at all sure that Snorri, for example, was a 100%
>Christian.
>
>>>Also, you're neglecting to mention Austri from the Gylfaginning,
>>
>>So, enlighten me.
>
>http://www.hi.is/~eybjorn/gg/ggrpar06.html
>Þá mælti Þriði: "Tóku þeir ok haus hans ok gerðu þar af himin ok
>settu hann upp yfir jörðina með fjórum skautum, ok undir hvert horn
>settu þeir dverg. Þeir heita svá: Austri, Vestri, Norði, Suðri
> ^^^^^^
>
>Or in, partially translated, English:
>
>And these, says the Sibyl, are their names:
>
>Nýi and Nidi, | Nordri and Sudri,
>Austri, Vestri, | Althjófr, Dvalinn;
>^^^^^^
I'm not sure what to make of it. I'm not a fundi in the language, so perhaps
you could enlighten me further. They look like compass directions to me, not
that they had compasses in those days, of course.
>I'm interested, though in the fact that you've deliberately censored
>my comments where I state that you're a Christian apologist.
>
>Why did you do that?
Don't be silly. Your post is still there, and intact. I censored nothing.
I didn't quote it in my reply, if that's what you're on about, but that is
standard Usenet netiquette, to delete quoted bits of the message that you are
not replying to.
++
tradigin last night what Easter is called in various languages among us,
and the preponderance of the Slavic terms was not Pascha but Velikden/
Veligdan / or other variations on Great Day = Veliki den /danas = day ,
even in those cultures that regularly used the term Pascha in singing
the Easter canon in their languages. In the western usages, is there
something like this?
duke
<dirk....@gmail.com> wrote:
>duke wrote:
>> On Sun, 23 Mar 2008 14:25:30 +0200, Steve Hayes <haye...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> At last I think I have discovered the source of one of the persistent urban
>>> legends about Easter -- the notion that it originated with a goddess called
>>> Eostre or Ostara who was associated with hares and eggs.
>>
>> It's for pre-school children only.
>
>That's fine by us - let us form their beliefs.
But unlike people like you, they grow up about age 8 or so.
BAM
"Someone else" <republican_...@email.com> wrote
> Plainly the Biblical account of Christ's birth does not coincide with
> him being born in late December...there are shepherd out in the field
> with their sheep, for example, in Bethlehem in late December the sheep
> would have all been inside with their shepherds due to the cold.
Israel is located, between 29°-33° north of the equator, which is
characterized as a subtropical region, between the temperate zone and the
tropical zone. The northern and coastal regions of Israel show Mediterranean
climate characterized by hot and dry summers and cool rainy winters. Whereas
the southern and eastern areas of Israel are characterized by an arid
climate.
The rainy season extends from October to early May, and rainfall peaks in
December through February. Rainfall varies considerably by regions from the
North to the South. Highest rainfall is observed in the North and center
parts of the country and decreases in the southern part of Israel, from the
Negev Desert to Eilat where rainfall is negligible.
Cool & rainy. Yep, that'll keep all the sheep and shepherds indoors - they
wouldn't step foot outdoor, in "cool & rainy" weather. (at least not without
their hand warmers and umbrellas). No, they could NOT have been outside in
December!
Everyone knows that the Jews pitch hay in the fall and hunker down for the
"cool & rainy" season.
Where do you dig up this unmitigated nonsense?
BAM
joerev...@bellsouth.net
"BAM" <mcca...@blahblahbellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:Q5ZFj.24270$dT.2...@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
"agrucola" (fields) refers to crop land.
Farmers have always allowed shepherds to graze their flocks on their
croplands in the fall and only in the fall.
bowman
> Where do you dig up this unmitigated nonsense?
The New Life Community Church website? If you Christians can't get your
stories straight, how do you expect us poor Heathens to?
http://www.new-life.net/chrtms10.htm
" This is important evidence to disprove a December date for Christ's birth.
Note that, at the time of Christ's birth, the shepherds tended their flocks
in the fields at night. "Now there were in the same country shepherds
living out in the fields," wrote one Gospel writer, "keeping watch over
their flock by night" (Luke 2:8). A common practice of shepherds was
keeping their flocks in the field from April to October, but in the cold
and rainy winter months they took their flocks back home and sheltered
them.
One commentary admits that, "as these shepherds had not yet brought home
their flocks, it is a presumptive argument that October had not yet
commenced, and that, consequently, our Lord was not born on the 25th of
December, when no flocks were out in the fields; nor could He have been
born later than September, as the flocks were still in the fields by night.
On this very ground the nativity in December should be given up. The
feeding of the flocks by night in the fields is a chronological fact, which
casts considerable light upon this disputed point" (Adam Clarke's
Commentary, Abingdon Press, Nashville, note on Luke 2:8).
Another study source agrees: "These humble pastoral folk are out in the
field at night with their flock—a feature of the story which would argue
against the birth [of Christ] occurring on Dec. 25 since the weather would
not have permitted it" (The Interpreter's One-Volume Commentary, Abingdon
Press, Nashville, 1971, note on Luke 2:4-7).
The Companion Bible, Appendix 179 says:
Shepherds and their flocks would not be found "abiding" (Gr. agrauleo)
in the open fields at night in December (Tebeth), for the paramount reason
that there would be no pasturage at that time. It was the custom then (as
now) to withdraw the flocks during the month Marchesven (Oct.-Nov.) from
the open districts and house them for the winter."
Someone else
>On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 11:53:05 +0000, Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
><dirk....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>duke wrote:
>>> On Sun, 23 Mar 2008 14:25:30 +0200, Steve Hayes <haye...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> At last I think I have discovered the source of one of the persistent urban
>>>> legends about Easter -- the notion that it originated with a goddess called
>>>> Eostre or Ostara who was associated with hares and eggs.
>>>
>>> It's for pre-school children only.
>>
>>That's fine by us - let us form their beliefs.
>
>But unlike people like you, they grow up about age 8 or so.
That, is ad hominem.
duke
<republican_...@email.com> wrote:
>On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 17:49:24 -0500, duke <duckg...@cox.net> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 11:53:05 +0000, Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
>><dirk....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>duke wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 23 Mar 2008 14:25:30 +0200, Steve Hayes <haye...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> At last I think I have discovered the source of one of the persistent urban
>>>>> legends about Easter -- the notion that it originated with a goddess called
>>>>> Eostre or Ostara who was associated with hares and eggs.
>>>>
>>>> It's for pre-school children only.
>>>
>>>That's fine by us - let us form their beliefs.
>>
>>But unlike people like you, they grow up about age 8 or so.
>
>That, is ad hominem.
Then you don't understand.
Digim...@starpower.net
There is NO reason for us to use the term "Easter". We should use the
correct term Pascha...
Digim...@starpower.net
wrote:
>
> Your evidence for that will need to explain away the commonality, to
> *all* of the examples I've given to the 'Eastern Star, the bright star
> of the morning - Venus'.
>
> >Having dismissed Nativity/Christmas because it's timing coincides with
> >a number of pagan solar festivals,
>
> Plainly the Biblical account of Christ's birth does not coincide with
> him being born in late December...there are shepherd out in the field
> with their sheep, for example, in Bethlehem in late December the sheep
> would have all been inside with their shepherds due to the cold. Or
> consider what it was that Joseph and Mary were doing at the time of
> their trip to Bethlehem, they were returning the city of Joseph's
> birth by the command of the Roman Governor to participate in a
> census...now what time of the year, in the ancient world, would have
> been the time of census?
>
> Harvest time...late September/October...not December.
>
> Also, the fact of the matter is that the 25th of December is almost
> smack on the time of Sol Invictus and Yuletide...hence the saying that
> still survives in common vernacular, 'Yuletide Greetings'.
>
I have tried for years to explain the whole Christ was not born in
December thing here but to no avail...
Orthodox News
<Digim...@starpower.net> wrote in message
news:b77fbef9-79db-4f9d...@s37g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
***We all agree with you. But, so what? I'll bet today, March 25, the real
Annunciation didn't take place, wither. so what?
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
Yeah... the kids eventually outgrew easter - you know, the bit where I
told them that Jesus would rise from the grave and get them. Almost as
good as Halloween.
BAM
"bowman" <bow...@montana.com> wrote in message
news:1946605.t...@montana.com...
> BAM wrote:
>
>> Where do you dig up this unmitigated nonsense?
>
> The New Life Community Church website? If you Christians can't get your
> stories straight, how do you expect us poor Heathens to?
It's been plagiarized a hundred times - still nonsense though, to think that
it was too cold to go outside. It might also help to look at the arguments
"for" dating Christmas in December and weighing them out.........
BAM
Someone else
Maybe its not important to you but I am a Heathen and those dates, in
particular Yule, are important to me. The dates in question have been
misappropriated by Christians and there is someone trying to argue
that they weren't...hence my debate.
If you're not concerned then don't bother with the debate.
Someone else
There is if you happen to be a Heathen.
> We should use the correct term Pascha...
What's this 'we' shit?
Someone else
>On Tue, 25 Mar 2008 21:10:08 +1300, Someone else
><republican_...@email.com> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 17:49:24 -0500, duke <duckg...@cox.net> wrote:
>>
>>>On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 11:53:05 +0000, Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
>>><dirk....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>duke wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 23 Mar 2008 14:25:30 +0200, Steve Hayes <haye...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> At last I think I have discovered the source of one of the persistent urban
>>>>>> legends about Easter -- the notion that it originated with a goddess called
>>>>>> Eostre or Ostara who was associated with hares and eggs.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's for pre-school children only.
Celebration of Eostre by Heathens is *not* only for pre-school
children.
>>>>That's fine by us - let us form their beliefs.
>>>
>>>But unlike people like you, they grow up about age 8 or so.
>>
>>That, is ad hominem.
>
>Then you don't understand.
>
>duke, American-American
>*****
>"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
>Pope Paul VI
>*****
Your comments appear to be unrelated. Please explain the meaning you
wish to convey.
Tell me though, what understanding of Heathenry do *you* have?
Someone else
<haye...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 22:21:01 +1300, Someone else
><republican_...@email.com> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 09:01:59 +0200, Steve Hayes
>><haye...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>Also the Icelandic sagas were written by Christians,
>>
>>The Heathen faith lived on in parallel for several centuries, indeed
>>many Heathens took on Jesus as another God in the Asa pantheon. The
>>Icelandic Eddas were written down by Snorri Sturluson who nonetheless
>>received the Sagas, directly or indirectly from Tru Heathens.
>>
>>> and so were filtered through a Christian mindset,
>>
>>People often make that claim, for varying reasons. It is the extent of
>>that influence that is debateable but perhaps difficult to resolve.
>>The Saga of Balder, for example, is often cited as an example of
>>exactly the claim your making.
>
>I'm not really "making a claim", I'm simply pointing out something that one
>should bear in mind when interpretin g historical documents (or any documents
>for that matter. You have said that I am a Christian apologist. So was Bede.
I'm not so sure, but I could be wrong about Bede, that he was a
'Christian Apologist'. I think that you are *because* you seek to
undermine Heathen belief in order to support your own particular
Christian viewpoint.
If Bede did that then I would take issue with him doing that but he
isn't around for me to debate with so...that's fairly pointless...
>In evaluating the content of a document you need to consider the writer's
>relationship to the events and people described in the document.
Quite right...like I am considering your own Christian point of view
when discussing matters that impact upon Heathen belief.
>I'm not purporting to determine the extent to which Bede or Snorri's writing
>was shaped by their Christian worldview, but just saying that since they were
>Christians
What makes you so sure that Snorri was a Christian?
> writing about pre-Christians societies one needs to be aware of
>possible Christian bias in what they wrote.
Of course.
> I'll leave it to specialists in the period to try to determine the extent of the bias.
You haven't left it to the specialists in Heathenry regards Eostre
though have you?
>>I'm not yet convinced of that myself...the Heathen viewpoint is one of
>>continual cyclical reincarnation back into our family line until one
>>lives the perfect life and ascends to Asgard on their final Earthly
>>death. I see that the very survival of Ases through Ragnarok, as
>>prophesied, is inherently Heathen and hence I reject the suggestion
>>that Balder's rebirth is some sort of conscious copying of Jesus.
>>
>>>which was also the case with Bede, even though he
>>>wrote several centuries earlier.
>>
>>I am personally satisfied that that is definitely the case with Bede
>>but I'm not at all sure that Snorri, for example, was a 100%
>>Christian.
>>
>>>>Also, you're neglecting to mention Austri from the Gylfaginning,
>>>
>>>So, enlighten me.
>>
>>http://www.hi.is/~eybjorn/gg/ggrpar06.html
>
>>Þá mælti Þriði: "Tóku þeir ok haus hans ok gerðu þar af himin ok
>>settu hann upp yfir jörðina með fjórum skautum, ok undir hvert horn
>>settu þeir dverg. Þeir heita svá: Austri, Vestri, Norði, Suðri
>> ^^^^^^
>>
>>Or in, partially translated, English:
>>
>>And these, says the Sibyl, are their names:
>>
>>Nýi and Nidi, | Nordri and Sudri,
>>Austri, Vestri, | Althjófr, Dvalinn;
>>^^^^^^
>
>I'm not sure what to make of it. I'm not a fundi in the language,
What is that supposed to mean?
Plainly, Austri in Icelandic means 'East'. Even someone not versed in
Icelandic should be able to work that out from the verse above. If you
can't then what are you doing arguing about the linguistic origins of
the term Easter?
> so perhaps you could enlighten me further. They look like compass directions to me,
The dwarves had first received shape and life in the flesh of Ymir,
and were then maggots; but by decree of the gods had become conscious
with the intelligence of men, and had human shape. And nevertheless
they dwell in the earth and in stones. Módsognir was the first, and
Durinn the second; so it says in Völuspá.
Then strode all the mighty | to the seats of judgment,
The gods most holy, | and together held counsel,
Who should of dwarves | shape the peoples
From the bloody surge | and the Blue One's bones. They made many in
man's likeness, Dwarves in the earth, | as Durinn said.
And these, says the Sibyl, are their names:
Nýi and Nidi, | Nordri and Sudri,
Austri, Vestri, | Althjófr, Dvalinn;
^^^^^^
Nár, Náinn, | Nípingr, Dáinn,
Bifurr, Báfurr, | Bömburr, Nóri,
Óri, Ónarr, | Óinn, Mjödvitnir,
Viggr and Gandálfr, | Vindálfr, Thorinn,
Fíli, Kíli, | Fundinn, Váli;
Thrór, Thróinn, | Thekkr, Litr and Vitr,
Nýr, Nýrádr, | Rekkr, Rádsvidr.
And these also are dwarves and dwell in stones, but the first in
mould:
Draupnir, Dólgthvari,
Hörr, Hugstari, | Hledjólfr, Glóinn;
Dóri, Óri, | Dúfr, Andvari,
Heptifíli, | Hárr, Svíarr.
Note: Be careful about interpreting the term 'dwarf' in Old Icelandic
as meaning the same thing that it means today in modern English.
> not that they had compasses in those days, of course.
Actually, Europe invented/obtained the mariner's compass around 1190,
China had it roughly 50 years earlier.
The American astronomer John Carlson after radiocarbon dating was led
to conclude that "the Olmec may have discovered and used the
geomagnetic lodestone compass earlier than 1000 BC".
Indeed the Chinese had needle-in-bowl compasses as early as 400 BCE as
is evidenced in 'The Book of the Devil Valley Master'.
In any event one does not require a mariner's compass or even a needle
in bowl device to know north, east, west and south...one only needs
celestial bodies to be visible.
>>I'm interested, though in the fact that you've deliberately censored
>>my comments where I state that you're a Christian apologist.
>>
>>Why did you do that?
>
>Don't be silly.
I'm not being silly, I'm asking a sensible question.
> Your post is still there, and intact. I censored nothing.
>
>I didn't quote it in my reply, if that's what you're on about,
It is.
> but that is standard Usenet netiquette, to delete quoted bits of the message that you are
>not replying to.
Not in my extended experience it is not. I've been posting to this
newsgroup alt.religion.asatru since 95-96 and usenet in general for
longer since 94. If I cut stuff out I, usually, note it by comments
such as <cut> or <cut with some remark about what was cut out>.
I was suspicious about you seeming to cover over/obscure your own
spiritual commitments but now you've replied, somewhat, to the point
that suspicion is allayed.
Someone else
<haye...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 23:08:03 +1300, Someone else
><republican_...@email.com> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 00:29:05 -0700 (PDT), athair ambrois
>><em...@globe.net.nz> wrote:
>>
>>>There is absolutely no evidence for a Germanic goddess with a name in
>>>any way resembling the word "Easter".
>>
>>There is a heap of evidence that the term Easter is ultimately of
>>Heathen origin.
>
>Thn, to quote what you said elsewhere,
>
>>Can you provide his argument and evidence rather than just making the
>>claim and expecting us to go along with it?
>
>... could you give us the evidence instead of just making the claim and
>expecting us to go along with it.
I've done so, that you don't wish to acknowledge this fact is entirely
up to you.
>>> by the time people wrote using the term "Easter").
>>
>>Bede described the Heathen worship of Eostre among the
>>Anglo-Saxons...and he was writing at a time not much more than 100
>>years after the beginning, in earnest, of the conversion of the
>>Anglo-Saxons to Christianity...its not long enough time period for
>>what you're trying to suggest.
>
>Where did he describe it?
>
>Can you quote the passage, or at least a reference to it?
"De temporum ratione"
http://www.nabkal.de/beda/beda_15.html
"Eostur-monath, qui nunc paschalis mensis interpretetur, quondam a dea
^^^^^^^
illorum quae Eostre vocabatur, et cui in illo festa celebrabant,
^^^^^^^
nomen habuit, a cuius nomine nunc paschale tempus cognominant;
consueto antiquae observationis vocabulo gaudia novae solemnitatis
vocantes. Tri-milchi dicebatur, quod tribus vicibus in eo per diem
pecora mulgebantur."
Someone else
Catholic Church, has, in past, deliberately destroyed and co-opted
Heathen belief and practice:
http://englishheathenism.homestead.com/popesletter.html
"To his most beloved son, the Abbot Mellitus; Gregory, the servant of
the servants of God. We have been much concerned, since the departure
of our congregation that is with you, because we have received no
account of the success of your journey. When, therefore, Almighty God
shall bring you to the most reverend Bishop Augustine, our brother,
tell him what I have, upon mature deliberation on the affair of the
English, determined upon, viz., that the temples of the idols in that
nation ought not to be destroyed; but let the idols that are in them
be destroyed; let holy water be made and sprinkled in the said
temples, let altars be erected, and relics placed. For if those
temples are well built, it is requisite that they be converted from
the worship of devils to the service of the true God; that the nation,
seeing that their temples are not destroyed, may remove error from
their hearts, and knowing and adoring the true God, may the more
familiarly resort to the places to which they have been accustomed.
And because they have been used to slaughter many oxen in the
sacrifices to devils, some solemnity must be exchanged for them on
this account, as that on the day of the dedication, or the nativities
of the holy martyrs, whose relics are there deposited, they may build
themselves huts of the boughs of trees, about those churches which
have been turned to that use from temples, and celebrate the solemnity
with religious feasting, and no more offer beasts to the Devil, but
kill cattle to the praise of God in their eating, and return thanks to
the Giver of all things for their sustenance; to the end that, whilst
some gratifications are outwardly permitted them, they may the more
easily consent to the inward consolations of the grace of God. For
there is no doubt that it is impossible to efface everything at once
from their obdurate minds; because he who endeavours to ascend to the
highest place, rises by degrees or steps, and not by leaps. Thus the
Lord made Himself known to the people of Israel in Egypt; and yet He
allowed them the use of the sacrifices which they were wont to offer
to the Devil, in his own worship; so as to command them in his
sacrifice to kill beasts, to the end that, changing their hearts, they
might lay aside one part of the sacrifice, whilst they retained
another; that whilst they offered the same beasts which they were wont
to offer, they should offer them to God, and not to idols; and thus
they would no longer be the same sacrifices. This it behooves your
affection to communicate to our aforesaid brother, that he, being
there present, may consider how he is to order all things. God
preserve you in safety, most beloved son".
Pope Gregory
LittleBluePebble
Hi Nik, nice to see you back.
This time of the year is very sacred for me, as a lot of rebirth happens.
Someone else
Right.
Do I know you by another Nym?
Steve Hayes
>On Tue, 25 Mar 2008 21:10:08 +1300, Someone else
><republican_...@email.com> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 17:49:24 -0500, duke <duckg...@cox.net> wrote:
>>
>>>On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 11:53:05 +0000, Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
>>><dirk....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>duke wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 23 Mar 2008 14:25:30 +0200, Steve Hayes <haye...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> At last I think I have discovered the source of one of the persistent urban
>>>>>> legends about Easter -- the notion that it originated with a goddess called
>>>>>> Eostre or Ostara who was associated with hares and eggs.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's for pre-school children only.
>>>>
>>>>That's fine by us - let us form their beliefs.
>>>
>>>But unlike people like you, they grow up about age 8 or so.
>>
>>That, is ad hominem.
>
>Then you don't understand.
What's to understand?
Steve Hayes
<republican_...@email.com> wrote:
>On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 19:18:39 +0200, Steve Hayes
><haye...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>Bede described the Heathen worship of Eostre among the
>>>Anglo-Saxons...and he was writing at a time not much more than 100
>>>years after the beginning, in earnest, of the conversion of the
>>>Anglo-Saxons to Christianity...its not long enough time period for
>>>what you're trying to suggest.
>>
>>Where did he describe it?
>>
>>Can you quote the passage, or at least a reference to it?
>
>"De temporum ratione"
>
>http://www.nabkal.de/beda/beda_15.html
>
>"Eostur-monath, qui nunc paschalis mensis interpretetur, quondam a dea
>^^^^^^^
> illorum quae Eostre vocabatur, et cui in illo festa celebrabant,
> ^^^^^^^
>nomen habuit, a cuius nomine nunc paschale tempus cognominant;
>consueto antiquae observationis vocabulo gaudia novae solemnitatis
>vocantes. Tri-milchi dicebatur, quod tribus vicibus in eo per diem
>pecora mulgebantur."
We seem to be going round in circles, since that was the bit I referred to in
the original post. Thanks for quoting it though.
++
Someone else wrote:
>
>
>>but that is standard Usenet netiquette, to delete quoted bits of the message that you are
>>not replying to.
>>
>>
Actually, I think it decent netiquette to only quote whatever it is that
you are responding to. It is not the respondant's task to carry on the
full post responded to. Thus, if yo wanted to continue a discussion of
Icelandic words, then yuo would reintroduce them again in the same or
another thread, but I need not. It is tedious to go through excessive
qoting and headers to reach one line or two
>
>Not in my extended experience it is not. I've been posting to this
>newsgroup alt.religion.asatru since 95-96 and usenet in general for
>longer since 94. If I cut stuff out I, usually, note it by comments
>such as <cut> or <cut with some remark about what was cut out>.
>
>
There are people so fond of their own words that they feel that failure
to riposte is assent, which of course it is not.
Likewise, for more than a decade it has been easy to look up, save,
ignore, different parts of a thread so there is no need to quote it or
indicate to someone you have failed to do so.
>I was suspicious about you seeming to cover over/obscure your own
>spiritual commitments but now you've replied, somewhat, to the point
>that suspicion is allayed.
>
>Nik
>
>
Why should anyone answer to you? Basically, if a part of your piece of
a thread, initiated or not, is interesting to someone, he will enter the
thread, or just save it and not comment at all
Digim...@starpower.net
> <Digimor...@starpower.net> wrote in message
>
> - Show quoted text -
Yep, it actually happened on 25 Kislev...in December
Digim...@starpower.net
wrote:
> On Tue, 25 Mar 2008 05:02:41 -0700 (PDT), "Digimor...@starpower.net"
> ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
We as in Orthodox Christians
Heidi Graw
>"Steve Hayes" <haye...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:l0jcu311iaq6bf593...@4ax.com...
> At last I think I have discovered the source of one of the persistent
> urban
> legends about Easter -- the notion that it originated with a goddess
> called
> Eostre or Ostara who was associated with hares and eggs.
>
> recorded
> that the old English name for April was Eostremonath, from which the
> modern
> English word "Easter" comes, and he thought it was named after a goddess
> Eostre, about whom nothing more is known.
Hi Steve,
What is being overlooked is the word "Oestrus." The month of Estrus.
In mammals it is in reference to the fertility season. Mother Earth (Jord
and/or Nerthus) is "in season" during the springtime. This pagan/heathen
season
of renewal fits in well with Christian doctrine...God's fruit of his loins
(Jesus)
arose after death.
For Heathens and Pagans, Eostremonath (Estrus Month) celebrates fertility...
Mother Nature.
Christrian Missionaries found this Pagan/Heathen belief useful when they
were
trying to convert the people. Christ died (stuff dies during the winter),
Christ
went to Hell for three days (the dead reside in the Underworld), then Christ
arose to take his throne next to his father's (seeds spring up, babes are
born to continue the eternal cycle of life).
So, when I see Christians celebrating Easter, I chuckle because they
are actually celebrating mammalian estrus...the rutting season. ;-)
Here's a link to more about Oestre, Oestrus, Estrus...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estrous_cycle
Heidi
Orthodox News
<Digim...@starpower.net> wrote in message
news:6e9f009f-f019-4d02...@e10g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
***Kool!
Steve Hayes
>
>>"Steve Hayes" <haye...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:l0jcu311iaq6bf593...@4ax.com...
>> At last I think I have discovered the source of one of the persistent
>> urban
>> legends about Easter -- the notion that it originated with a goddess
>> called
>> Eostre or Ostara who was associated with hares and eggs.
>>
>> The only reference I could find to this was the Venerable Bede, who
>> recorded
>> that the old English name for April was Eostremonath, from which the
>> modern
>> English word "Easter" comes, and he thought it was named after a goddess
>> Eostre, about whom nothing more is known.
>
>Hi Steve,
>
>What is being overlooked is the word "Oestrus." The month of Estrus.
>In mammals it is in reference to the fertility season. Mother Earth (Jord
>and/or Nerthus) is "in season" during the springtime. This pagan/heathen
>season
>of renewal fits in well with Christian doctrine...God's fruit of his loins
>(Jesus)
>arose after death.
As far as I am aware, that's a bit of confusion of etymology.
One pagan blogger (to whom I provided a link in my own blog post that I
referred to) suggested that Bede may have had in mind Eos for dawn. The name
"Lucifer" that appears in some English Bibles is "Eosphoros" in Greek -- which
means the same -- "Light bearer", and was a name given to the planet Venus
when seen in the morning -- the brightest object in the sky apart from the sun
and moon.
>For Heathens and Pagans, Eostremonath (Estrus Month) celebrates fertility...
>Mother Nature.
Yes, I'm sure they do, but I don't think the derivation of the term is right.
>Christrian Missionaries found this Pagan/Heathen belief useful when they
>were
>trying to convert the people. Christ died (stuff dies during the winter),
>Christ
>went to Hell for three days (the dead reside in the Underworld), then Christ
>arose to take his throne next to his father's (seeds spring up, babes are
>born to continue the eternal cycle of life).
Doesn't work for me, though. I live in the southern hemisphere, and it's
autumn, the leaves are beginning to turn. By the time our Easter comes round
(27 April this year) they'll be quite brown. I suppose we could say that the
trees are weeping for Good Friday.
>So, when I see Christians celebrating Easter, I chuckle because they
>are actually celebrating mammalian estrus...the rutting season. ;-)
Well, not really. As I said, I don't think the etymology is right, and anyway
I've read about spring lambs; I'm not sure of the gestation period of sheep,
but surely they were conceived some time before?
If you wanted to find seasonal links to Christian Easter, you'd have to look
for them in the Jewish passover (from which the Christian term "Pascha" is
derived), and it may well have something to do with spring lambs.
>Here's a link to more about Oestre, Oestrus, Estrus...
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estrous_cycle
And one of the useful links on that site is to this one:
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=estrus
compare that with:
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=easter&searchmode=none
Steve Hayes
<republican_...@email.com> wrote:
>>I'm not really "making a claim", I'm simply pointing out something that one
>>should bear in mind when interpretin g historical documents (or any documents
>>for that matter. You have said that I am a Christian apologist. So was Bede.
>
>I'm not so sure, but I could be wrong about Bede, that he was a
>'Christian Apologist'. I think that you are *because* you seek to
>undermine Heathen belief in order to support your own particular
>Christian viewpoint.
I'm not trying to "undermine Heathen belief". I've been looking for a source
for the factoids so often published in newspapers at this time of the year
about the association of Eostre with hares and eggs.
>If Bede did that then I would take issue with him doing that but he
>isn't around for me to debate with so...that's fairly pointless...
The point is not to argue with him, but to be aware of his biases. For
example, he is one of our main sources for the dispute that took place on the
method of calculating the date of Easter. Eventually the English Church opted
for the Nicene system (at the Synod of Whitby), and Bede clearly regarded that
as a Good Thing. Someone who regarded it as a bad thing might have told the
story in a different way.
>>I'm not purporting to determine the extent to which Bede or Snorri's writing
>>was shaped by their Christian worldview, but just saying that since they were
>>Christians
>
>What makes you so sure that Snorri was a Christian?
I'm not "so sure". Do you have any evidence that he wasn't?
>> I'll leave it to specialists in the period to try to determine the extent of the bias.
>
>You haven't left it to the specialists in Heathenry regards Eostre
>though have you?
Are Heathen apologists any more to be trusted than Christian ones?
By "specialists" I mean historians who have specialised in the period,
preferably without studium or ira.
>>>http://www.hi.is/~eybjorn/gg/ggrpar06.html
>>
>>>Þá mælti Þriði: "Tóku þeir ok haus hans ok gerðu þar af himin ok
>>>settu hann upp yfir jörðina með fjórum skautum, ok undir hvert horn
>>>settu þeir dverg. Þeir heita svá: Austri, Vestri, Norði, Suðri
>>> ^^^^^^
>>>
>>>Or in, partially translated, English:
>>>
>>>And these, says the Sibyl, are their names:
>>>
>>>Nýi and Nidi, | Nordri and Sudri,
>>>Austri, Vestri, | Althjófr, Dvalinn;
>>>^^^^^^
>>
>>I'm not sure what to make of it. I'm not a fundi in the language,
>
>What is that supposed to mean?
What it says. I've never studied Icelandic, or any other Sacndinavian
language.
But still, "Austri, Vestri, Norði, Suðri " look to me like they would
translate into "East West North South" in modern English.
Interesting, but I'm not sure what your point is.
Are you saying that Eostre was a dwarf?
>Note: Be careful about interpreting the term 'dwarf' in Old Icelandic
>as meaning the same thing that it means today in modern English.
I'm sure modern authors like Tolkien and Garner had their own idea of what
dwarfs/dwarves were, and they may well have differed from the old Icelandic
ones, but I was interested to see the origin of Garner's reference to "the
maggot-brood of Ymir".
Heidi Graw
>> On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 17:52:38 GMT, "Heidi Graw" <hg...@telus.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>>"Steve Hayes" <haye...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>news:l0jcu311iaq6bf593...@4ax.com...
>>> At last I think I have discovered the source of one of the persistent
>>> urban
>>> legends about Easter -- the notion that it originated with a goddess
>>> called
>>> Eostre or Ostara who was associated with hares and eggs.
>>>
>>> The only reference I could find to this was the Venerable Bede, who
>>> recorded
>>> that the old English name for April was Eostremonath, from which the
>>> modern
>>> English word "Easter" comes, and he thought it was named after a goddess
>>> Eostre, about whom nothing more is known.
>>
>>Hi Steve,
>>
>>What is being overlooked is the word "Oestrus." The month of Estrus.
>>In mammals it is in reference to the fertility season. Mother Earth (Jord
>>and/or Nerthus) is "in season" during the springtime. This pagan/heathen
>>season
>>of renewal fits in well with Christian doctrine...God's fruit of his loins
>>(Jesus)
>>arose after death.
> Steve wrote:
> As far as I am aware, that's a bit of confusion of etymology.
Yes, I know. That's why I'm mentioning it. Those who've had
a classical eduction will link Eostremonath to East-month, Easter...
as in Eastern Star, earlier known as a reference to Venus, then later
adopted and ascribed to Jesus.
In the German language it would also make sense to claim
Easter has something to do with an easterly direction, the
Eastern Star...der Ost Stern. Ost Stern is really awkward
to say in German. It would have been quite natural to
end up saying Ostern...the German word for East Star...
Easter.
(snip)
>>Heidi wrote:
>>Here's a link to more about Oestre, Oestrus, Estrus...
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estrous_cycle
> Steve wrote:
> And one of the useful links on that site is to this one:
>
> http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=estrus
>
> compare that with:
>
> http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=easter&searchmode=none
Yes, so let's go back to what Bede wrote:
http://www.nabkal.de/beda/beda_15.html
"Eostur-monath, qui nunc paschalis mensis interpretetur, quondam a dea
illorum quae Eostre vocabatur, et cui in illo festa celebrabant,
nomen habuit, a cuius nomine nunc paschale tempus cognominant;
consueto antiquae observationis vocabulo gaudia novae solemnitatis
vocantes. Tri-milchi dicebatur, quod tribus vicibus in eo per diem
pecora mulgebantur."
He spelled it out as Eostur-monath.
From the Latin we get the word: oestrus "frenzy, gadfly,"
from Gk. oistros "gadfly, breeze, sting, mad impulse"
(probably cognate with Lith. aistra "violent passion," L. ira "anger").
Earliest Eng. sense is of "frenzied passion;" first attested 1890
with meaning "rut in animals, heat."
Let's add to this the role of the Seraphim...those fire sprites.
These highest and most holy of angels put the fire into
those loins.
Check out the info about Seraphim here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seraph
The are 6-winged creatures of the Hebrew tradition.
"Firy-flying serpents." They sure sound like
gadflies to me. ;-)
Now, let's look at the other etymology
"O.E. Eastre (Northumbrian Eostre), from P.Gmc. *Austron,
a goddess of fertility and sunrise whose feast was celebrated
at the spring equinox, from *austra-, from PIE *aus- "to shine"
(especially of the dawn). Bede says Anglo-Saxon Christians
adopted her name and many of the celebratory practices
for their Mass of Christ's resurrection. Ultimately related to east.
Almost all neighboring languages use a variant of L. Pasche to
name this holiday. Easter Island so called because it was
discovered by Europeans on Easter Sunday, 1722.
This mentions a Northumbrain Eostre, from a Germanic "Austron"
...Austri...East...German Ost...From Aust to Ost or Ost to Aust
is possible.
Let's consider Bede and his written report. He was a Benedictine
monk...a celibate. What are the chances this venerable fellow,
well-rooted in his celibate life and educated in the classical
way, upon hearing the word "Oestre" would deliberately understand
it as Eastern instead of Estrus.
It only takes a small switching of vowels to get from
Oestre and Eostre.
Now, let's look at those Germanic Heathens, living in a chillier
climate which has a much shorter growing season. The winters
are dark and cold. Starvation is not unknown. For them, the
spring is a welcome time. Rabbits are rutting, chickens are
once again laying their eggs. Tender green shoots are
emerging from the thrawing ground. For these people,
fertility is an utmost concern...fertile fields, fertile
domestic and wild critters and fertile men and women.
The people would have been intimately acquainted
with the estrus cycle. Spring was a time to celebrate
fertility. The air smelled of sex! The venerable Bede
would *not* have noticed it. Or if he had, he would
have sneered and contemned these lewed practises.
"Avert your eyes from the critters, cover up so you
don't see nothing, and be sure to apologize for
having sex with your wife!" ...his fist pounding on
the Bible and threatening the wrath of God if there
wasn't a greater effort at modesty. ;-)
Well...in any case...Easter as a celebration
of Estrus makes a heck of a lot more sense
to this Heathen...me, than it would to a Christian.
Jehovah: "Go forth and multiply!"
Freyr: "Go forth and f*ck someone!" Freyr definitely
stands proud! And Freya has the scent! ;-)
Take care,
Heidi
++
Steve Hayes wrote:
>
>
>I'm sure modern authors like Tolkien and Garner had their own idea of what
>dwarfs/dwarves were, and they may well have differed from the old Icelandic
>ones, but I was interested to see the origin of Garner's reference to "the
>maggot-brood of Ymir".
>
>
Tolkein wrote with regularity for an early English journal. He wa quite
a grea scholar. he worked at the Oxford English dictionary, too, so I
imagine he _did_ know the derivation of all these terms. I once rans
across his work for the Early English text Society in the library at
Hopkins, Fascinating stuff but probably not reprinted?,,,waiting
interminably with my bad dialup for the wiki....ok, what's free:
http://www.archive.org/details/middleenglishvoc00tolkuoft
a cool one, but not online: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancrene_Wisse
download the above:
http://books.google.com/books/pdf/The_Ancren_Riwle.pdf?id=7BgIAAAAIAAJ&output=pdf&sig=pa52IOve8tty3TMSZwpvzIxhH0U
regular wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bibliography_of_J._R._R._Tolkien
>
>
>
Heidi Graw
(snip)
> but I was interested to see the origin of Garner's reference to "the
> maggot-brood of Ymir".
From the Voluspa...The Poetic Edda...Carolyne Larrington translation:
Seeress's Prophesy
9. Then all the Powers went to the thrones of fate,
the sacrosanct gods, and considered this:
who should form the lord of the dwarfs
out of Brimir's blood and from Blain's limbs?*
* Brimir: probably identical with Ymir. Brim normally means "ocean,"
blain the "dark or black one."
From the Gylfaginning...Snorri's Prose Edda...Anthony's Faulks translation,
page 16..
"The dwarfs had taken shape first and acquired life in the flesh of Ymir and
were then maggots, but by
decision of the gods they became conscious with intelligence and had the
shape of men though
they live in the earth and in rocks."
It looks to me that Snorri kinda added the maggot comment which isn't
mentioned in
the earlier poem called the Voluspa.
Garner would have gotten this information from Snorri's Prose Edda which is
not
the same as the collection called the Poetic Edda. Quite a few
discrepencies
can be found between the poems and Snorri's prose.
Then, there is also the problem of the various English translations of the
poems.
Yikes! It is most definitely a "reader beware" situation.
Take care,
Heidi
Someone else
<haye...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 18:51:58 +1300, Someone else
><republican_...@email.com> wrote:
>
>>>I'm not really "making a claim", I'm simply pointing out something that one
>>>should bear in mind when interpretin g historical documents (or any documents
>>>for that matter. You have said that I am a Christian apologist. So was Bede.
>>
>>I'm not so sure, but I could be wrong about Bede, that he was a
>>'Christian Apologist'. I think that you are *because* you seek to
>>undermine Heathen belief in order to support your own particular
>>Christian viewpoint.
>
>I'm not trying to "undermine Heathen belief".
I accept that it is not intentional but that is what you're doing in
effect.
>I've been looking for a source
>for the factoids so often published in newspapers at this time of the year
>about the association of Eostre with hares and eggs.
I've posted Bede's Latin.
>>If Bede did that then I would take issue with him doing that but he
>>isn't around for me to debate with so...that's fairly pointless...
>
>The point is not to argue with him, but to be aware of his biases. For
>example, he is one of our main sources for the dispute that took place on the
>method of calculating the date of Easter. Eventually the English Church opted
>for the Nicene system (at the Synod of Whitby), and Bede clearly regarded that
>as a Good Thing. Someone who regarded it as a bad thing might have told the
>story in a different way.
>
>
>>>I'm not purporting to determine the extent to which Bede or Snorri's writing
>>>was shaped by their Christian worldview, but just saying that since they were
>>>Christians
>>
>>What makes you so sure that Snorri was a Christian?
>
>I'm not "so sure". Do you have any evidence that he wasn't?
He wrote the Eddas down. That, in and of itself, is sympathetic to
Heathenry.
>>> I'll leave it to specialists in the period to try to determine the extent of the bias.
>>
>>You haven't left it to the specialists in Heathenry regards Eostre
>>though have you?
>
>Are Heathen apologists any more to be trusted than Christian ones?
True people of either faith are to be trustable. I've met some fine
people of Christian faith...its when I sense attack from Christians
that my alarm goes off.
>By "specialists" I mean historians who have specialised in the period,
>preferably without studium or ira.
Studium or ira?
>>>>http://www.hi.is/~eybjorn/gg/ggrpar06.html
>>>
>>>>Þá mælti Þriði: "Tóku þeir ok haus hans ok gerðu þar af himin ok
>>>>settu hann upp yfir jörðina með fjórum skautum, ok undir hvert horn
>>>>settu þeir dverg. Þeir heita svá: Austri, Vestri, Norði, Suðri
>>>> ^^^^^^
>>>>
>>>>Or in, partially translated, English:
>>>>
>>>>And these, says the Sibyl, are their names:
>>>>
>>>>Nýi and Nidi, | Nordri and Sudri,
>>>>Austri, Vestri, | Althjófr, Dvalinn;
>>>>^^^^^^
>>>
>>>I'm not sure what to make of it. I'm not a fundi in the language,
>>
>>What is that supposed to mean?
>
>What it says. I've never studied Icelandic, or any other Sacndinavian
>language.
>
>But still, "Austri, Vestri, Norði, Suðri " look to me like they would
>translate into "East West North South" in modern English.
Indeed.
They are supernatural beings...mythological existence...so to
speak...part of the Heathen cosmology...
>Are you saying that Eostre was a dwarf?
Yes. See below.
>>Note: Be careful about interpreting the term 'dwarf' in Old Icelandic
>>as meaning the same thing that it means today in modern English.
>
>I'm sure modern authors like Tolkien and Garner had their own idea of what
>dwarfs/dwarves were, and they may well have differed from the old Icelandic
>ones, but I was interested to see the origin of Garner's reference to "the
>maggot-brood of Ymir".
Yes, that would bear further investigation.
bowman
> I'm not trying to "undermine Heathen belief". I've been looking for a
> source for the factoids so often published in newspapers at this time of
> the year about the association of Eostre with hares and eggs.
I'm more interested with the association of Christianity with hares and
eggs. Much like the Heliand, the material was reworked to fit in with
Heathen customs and practices. The name 'Eostre' may be a stretch, but the
artifacts that have endured to this day hardly are.
Jani
"Someone else" <republican_...@email.com> wrote in message
news:gvmju3plvc68cepce...@4ax.com...
<big snip>
I can see the link between Austri, Ostern, Ostar, etc, in terms of similar
pronunciation, but I'm still not understanding how the dwarf of the East
becomes Bede's hypothetical goddess. Wouldn't Austri be a male deity, rather
than a female one?
Jani
Heidi Graw
>"Jani" <ja...@jani.adsl24.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:fshu3e$jqg$1...@energise.enta.net...
>
(snip)
>Jani wrote:
> I can see the link between Austri, Ostern, Ostar, etc, in terms of similar
> pronunciation, but I'm still not understanding how the dwarf of the East
> becomes Bede's hypothetical goddess. Wouldn't Austri be a male deity,
> rather than a female one?
There is some gender confusion in German, too.
Ostern ( as Easter ) is feminine plural...die Ostern, since
Easter is more than one day, and more than one thing
is going on.
Ostern (as Ost Stern...Ostern) would be masculine singular...
der Ostern.
In German, a star is of the masculine gender...der Stern.
So, any estern star would have been a masculine one.
In order to get closer to what goddess Bede might
have been trying to refer to, we'd have to look for
a springtime goddess of fertility. This goddess
does not necessarily have to be a goddess of love...
any fecund goddess would do.
And since Bede mentioned the word Eostre, as in
reference to Venus the eastern star, I'm thinking it
may actually be the Germanic Oestre [as in reference
to the estrus cycle...a sign of fertility]. So, if this means
from Oestre we morph the word to Ostara, then it would fit
all the same. ;-)
Take care,
Heidi
Steve Hayes
<republican_...@email.com> wrote:
>>By "specialists" I mean historians who have specialised in the period,
>>preferably without studium or ira.
>
>Studium or ira?
Bias in favour of or against.
>>But still, "Austri, Vestri, Norği, Suğri " look to me like they would
>>translate into "East West North South" in modern English.
>
>Indeed.
>They are supernatural beings...mythological existence...so to
>speak...part of the Heathen cosmology...
>
>>Are you saying that Eostre was a dwarf?
>
>Yes. See below.
>
>>>Note: Be careful about interpreting the term 'dwarf' in Old Icelandic
>>>as meaning the same thing that it means today in modern English.
>>
>>I'm sure modern authors like Tolkien and Garner had their own idea of what
>>dwarfs/dwarves were, and they may well have differed from the old Icelandic
>>ones, but I was interested to see the origin of Garner's reference to "the
>>maggot-brood of Ymir".
>
>Yes, that would bear further investigation.
Well if Eostre was a dwarf, what was/is she like?
As I said, I know descriptions from modern authors, and in their works of
imagination.
Here's Garner's description of "the maggot-breed of Ymir":
"They stood about three feet high and were man-shaped, with thin wiry bodies
and limbs, and broad, flat, feet and hands. Thei heads were large, having
pointed ears, large sucer eyes, and gaping mouths which showed teeth. Some had
pug-noses, others thin snouts reaching to their chins. Their hides were
generally of a fish-white colour, though some were black, and all were
practically hairless."
and
"'The creatures you encoutnered are of the goblin race -- the svart-alfar, in
their own tongue. They are a cowardly people, night-loving and sun-loathing,
much given to throttlings in dark places, seldom venturing above ground unless
they have good cause. They have no magic...'"
Fairly similar to Tolkien's goblins too, though his dwarfs were somewhat
different in character. Both Tolkien and Garner got many of their ideas from
Icelandic sagas, but they were writing imaginative fiction. I don't know what
Garner's religious background is, but Tolkien was a Christian, and he would
have read the Icelandic sagas through Christian eyes, though he was a
specialist in the literature of the period. I don't remember that he was as
specific about either his dwarfs or goblins being "the maggot-breed of Ymir",
though.
Is Eostre one of "the maggot-breed of Ymir"?
And if so, how does she differ from Garner's description?
You said it doesn't mean the same thing that it does in modern English, so
what DOES it mean?
I'm not trying to be insulting. The source I cited in my original post was a
Neopagan one, who said that the cult of Ostara was a modern pagan one, and
that there was no evidence of that in earlier times, apart from Bede's passing
reference. Since she was a Neopagan, I took her statement as being without
"studium or ira" -- that she wasn't just making it up in order to mock pagan
rites.
I don't think she is Heathen, and so she's probably not reconstructionist, so
a strict reconstructionist might take offence at that idea.
Someone else
<haye...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>On Thu, 27 Mar 2008 23:01:21 +1300, Someone else
><republican_...@email.com> wrote:
>
>>>By "specialists" I mean historians who have specialised in the period,
>>>preferably without studium or ira.
>>
>>Studium or ira?
>
>Bias in favour of or against.
I have to recommend Hilda Ellis-Davidson. She is herself a Christian
but plainly has no axe to grind and, to my mind, has an instinctive
understanding of the material.
>>>But still, "Austri, Vestri, Norði, Suðri " look to me like they would
I, almost always, have no great respect for the opinion of anyone that
calls themself a 'Neo-Pagan'. In my experience 'Neo-Pagans' are what
we commonly describe as 'fluffy bunnies'.
> who said that the cult of Ostara was a modern pagan one, and
>that there was no evidence of that in earlier times, apart from Bede's passing
>reference. Since she was a Neopagan, I took her statement as being without
>"studium or ira" -- that she wasn't just making it up in order to mock pagan
>rites.
No but neither is she likely to have any great understanding of the
material either. Frequently, for example, if they also claim to be
Wiccans they are unaware of the fact that 'Wicca' as a faith started
in 1951, for instance...and instead claim that it is ancient.
>I don't think she is Heathen, and so she's probably not reconstructionist,
The term 'Neo-Pagan' generally precludes any serious reconstructionist
viewpoint.
> so a strict reconstructionist might take offence at that idea.
More, 'ho hum, the same old same old annoying bollocks from
Neo-Pagans' rather than offense.
They, of course, might be offended at my characterisations but I'm
beyond caring at this point.
Someone else
<haye...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>On Tue, 25 Mar 2008 06:16:55 -0500, duke <duckg...@cox.net> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 25 Mar 2008 21:10:08 +1300, Someone else
>><republican_...@email.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 17:49:24 -0500, duke <duckg...@cox.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 11:53:05 +0000, Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
>>>><dirk....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>duke wrote:
>>>>>> On Sun, 23 Mar 2008 14:25:30 +0200, Steve Hayes <haye...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> At last I think I have discovered the source of one of the persistent urban
>>>>>>> legends about Easter -- the notion that it originated with a goddess called
>>>>>>> Eostre or Ostara who was associated with hares and eggs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's for pre-school children only.
>>>>>
>>>>>That's fine by us - let us form their beliefs.
>>>>
>>>>But unlike people like you, they grow up about age 8 or so.
>>>
>>>That, is ad hominem.
>>
>>Then you don't understand.
>
>What's to understand?
Precisely.
Someone else
>We as in Orthodox Christians
Your comment implies that you're assuming that I, for example, am also
an Orthodox Christian...this is a mistake.
How would you feel if I assumed that you were a Heathen?
Nik
----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
Someone else
<haye...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 18:57:41 +1300, Someone else
><republican_...@email.com> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 19:18:39 +0200, Steve Hayes
>><haye...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>Bede described the Heathen worship of Eostre among the
>>>>Anglo-Saxons...and he was writing at a time not much more than 100
>>>>years after the beginning, in earnest, of the conversion of the
>>>>Anglo-Saxons to Christianity...its not long enough time period for
>>>>what you're trying to suggest.
>>>
>>>Where did he describe it?
>>>
>>>Can you quote the passage, or at least a reference to it?
>>
>>"De temporum ratione"
>>
>>http://www.nabkal.de/beda/beda_15.html
>>
>>"Eostur-monath, qui nunc paschalis mensis interpretetur, quondam a dea
>>^^^^^^^
>> illorum quae Eostre vocabatur, et cui in illo festa celebrabant,
>> ^^^^^^^
>>nomen habuit, a cuius nomine nunc paschale tempus cognominant;
>>consueto antiquae observationis vocabulo gaudia novae solemnitatis
>>vocantes. Tri-milchi dicebatur, quod tribus vicibus in eo per diem
>>pecora mulgebantur."
>
>We seem to be going round in circles, since that was the bit I referred to in
>the original post. Thanks for quoting it though.
I believe that I have established that the term Easter is indeed of
Heathen origin but that it is not definitely the name of a
Goddess...at least not beyond reasonable doubt given the evidence.
Now, can I have a go at undermining your faith?
Tell me, how did the Kiwis (a flightless bird native to New Zealand
and nowhere else in the world) make it back to New Zealand from Noah's
Ark and did Noah make a trip, somehow, from the middle east to pick up
all the species native to New Zealand?
Steve Hayes
<republican_...@email.com> wrote:
>On Fri, 28 Mar 2008 08:18:13 +0200, Steve Hayes
><haye...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 27 Mar 2008 23:01:21 +1300, Someone else
>><republican_...@email.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>By "specialists" I mean historians who have specialised in the period,
>>>>preferably without studium or ira.
>>>
>>>Studium or ira?
>>
>>Bias in favour of or against.
>
>I have to recommend Hilda Ellis-Davidson. She is herself a Christian
>but plainly has no axe to grind and, to my mind, has an instinctive
>understanding of the material.
I recommend Ronald Hutton.
>>Is Eostre one of "the maggot-breed of Ymir"?
>>
>>And if so, how does she differ from Garner's description?
>>
>>You said it doesn't mean the same thing that it does in modern English, so
>>what DOES it mean?
>>
>>I'm not trying to be insulting. The source I cited in my original post was a
>>Neopagan one,
>
>I, almost always, have no great respect for the opinion of anyone that
>calls themself a 'Neo-Pagan'. In my experience 'Neo-Pagans' are what
>we commonly describe as 'fluffy bunnies'.
Well Neopagans regard New Agers as "fluffy bunnies", but I wasn't asking your
opinion of Neopagans (of whom I regard modern Heathens as a subset), but for
your views on how the Icelanding bit you quoted relates to Eostre/Ostara.
>> who said that the cult of Ostara was a modern pagan one, and
>>that there was no evidence of that in earlier times, apart from Bede's passing
>>reference. Since she was a Neopagan, I took her statement as being without
>>"studium or ira" -- that she wasn't just making it up in order to mock pagan
>>rites.
>
>No but neither is she likely to have any great understanding of the
>material either. Frequently, for example, if they also claim to be
>Wiccans they are unaware of the fact that 'Wicca' as a faith started
>in 1951, for instance...and instead claim that it is ancient.
Which seems to be just what you are doing with the cult of Ostara.
Many Wiccans are quite well aware that it is recent.
>>I don't think she is Heathen, and so she's probably not reconstructionist,
>
>The term 'Neo-Pagan' generally precludes any serious reconstructionist
>viewpoint.
Not necessarily, but that's not really the point here.
I was merely pointing it out since I thought you might disagree, as indeed you
have.
But if you see Eostre/Ostara as a dwarf, but different to the modern
conception of dwarfs, how do you see her?
Someone else
<haye...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Implicitly you were because you used the term in your
description...Neo-Pagans, in my experience, and that is extensive
(rather more extensive than I would like
(of whom I regard modern Heathens as a subset),
You can regard Heathens as such all you like but we reject it. Are
Christians a subset of Judaism? Or your form of Christianity is a
subset of Catholicism etc etc
A central theme of the Sagas, if you choose to read them, is the
notion of maximising individual freedom and balancing that against the
requirements of communal living in order to survive...we stand apart
from weak indistinct terms such as 'Neo-Pagan'. The title itself makes
no specific allegiance...we Asatruar are specific.
> but for your views on how the Icelanding bit you quoted relates to Eostre/Ostara.
>
>>> who said that the cult of Ostara was a modern pagan one, and
>>>that there was no evidence of that in earlier times, apart from Bede's passing
>>>reference. Since she was a Neopagan, I took her statement as being without
>>>"studium or ira" -- that she wasn't just making it up in order to mock pagan
>>>rites.
>>
>>No but neither is she likely to have any great understanding of the
>>material either. Frequently, for example, if they also claim to be
>>Wiccans they are unaware of the fact that 'Wicca' as a faith started
>>in 1951, for instance...and instead claim that it is ancient.
>
>Which seems to be just what you are doing with the cult of Ostara.
How so?
>Many Wiccans are quite well aware that it is recent.
Your evidence for that is what precisely?
>>>I don't think she is Heathen, and so she's probably not reconstructionist,
>>
>>The term 'Neo-Pagan' generally precludes any serious reconstructionist
>>viewpoint.
>
>Not necessarily,
I wasn't claiming a logical exclusion but a contingent one.
> but that's not really the point here.
It is an important point to me and to my Heathen co-religionists. We
are sick of 'Neo-Pagans' claiming that we're a 'subset' of them, as
you do...because we aren't.
>I was merely pointing it out since I thought you might disagree, as indeed you
>have.
>
>But if you see Eostre/Ostara as a dwarf, but different to the modern
>conception of dwarfs, how do you see her?
As associated with the Morning Star in the East...she is a lesser
Goddess and not one that is mentioned as an Aseir or Vanir divinity in
the Eddas. Some have drawn some similarities between her and
Nehellenia, a European Continental Goddess. I am not that
concerned...what I am concerned about is any attempt to diminish
actual Heathen influence on the modern world...but its still there and
you yourself use it on a frequent basis e.g. 'Tuesday, Wednesday,
Thursday and Friday".
Tell me, though, how did the Kiwis get back to New Zealand after they
left Noah's Ark?
Someone else
<haye...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>On Fri, 28 Mar 2008 23:14:20 +1300, Someone else
><republican_...@email.com> wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 28 Mar 2008 08:18:13 +0200, Steve Hayes
>><haye...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Thu, 27 Mar 2008 23:01:21 +1300, Someone else
>>><republican_...@email.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>By "specialists" I mean historians who have specialised in the period,
>>>>>preferably without studium or ira.
>>>>
>>>>Studium or ira?
>>>
>>>Bias in favour of or against.
>>
>>I have to recommend Hilda Ellis-Davidson. She is herself a Christian
>>but plainly has no axe to grind and, to my mind, has an instinctive
>>understanding of the material.
>
>I recommend Ronald Hutton.
I've found the references:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_Hutton
and
http://druidry.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=PagEd&file=index&topic_id=1&page_id=98
I will look into his writing.
Tell me though, how would you feel about others defining your religion
as something that you know, as a practitioner of that religion, as
being something that it isn't?
duke
<dirk....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> At last I think I have discovered the source of one of the persistent urban
>>>>>>> legends about Easter -- the notion that it originated with a goddess called
>>>>>>> Eostre or Ostara who was associated with hares and eggs.
>>>>>> It's for pre-school children only.
>>>>> That's fine by us - let us form their beliefs.
>>>> But unlike people like you, they grow up about age 8 or so.
>>> That, is ad hominem.
>> Then you don't understand.
>Yeah... the kids eventually outgrew easter - you know, the bit where I
>told them that Jesus would rise from the grave and get them. Almost as
>good as Halloween.
No, the kids don't outgrow Easter, only the dumb ones do. Kids outgrow Easter
eggs and bunny rabbits.
duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
duke
<republican_...@email.com> wrote:
>Celebration of Eostre by Heathens is *not* only for pre-school
>children.
We turned the Easter celebration into something worthwhile - the resurrection of
the Lord.
>>>>>That's fine by us - let us form their beliefs.
>>>>But unlike people like you, they grow up about age 8 or so.
>>>That, is ad hominem.
>>Then you don't understand.
>>duke, American-American
>Your comments appear to be unrelated. Please explain the meaning you
>wish to convey.
They're not. At ages above 8, they develop their own beliefs about God.
>Tell me though, what understanding of Heathenry do *you* have?
What is it?
duke
>>>>>That's fine by us - let us form their beliefs.
>>>>But unlike people like you, they grow up about age 8 or so.
>>>That, is ad hominem.
>>Then you don't understand.
>What's to understand?
That kids grow up and still believe in God on the basis of their own experiences
in life.
Steve Hayes
<republican_...@email.com> wrote:
>On Fri, 28 Mar 2008 13:10:53 +0200, Steve Hayes
><haye...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 28 Mar 2008 23:14:20 +1300, Someone else
>><republican_...@email.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Fri, 28 Mar 2008 08:18:13 +0200, Steve Hayes
>>><haye...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Thu, 27 Mar 2008 23:01:21 +1300, Someone else
>>>><republican_...@email.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>By "specialists" I mean historians who have specialised in the period,
>>>>>>preferably without studium or ira.
>>>>>
>>>>>Studium or ira?
>>>>
>>>>Bias in favour of or against.
>>>
>>>I have to recommend Hilda Ellis-Davidson. She is herself a Christian
>>>but plainly has no axe to grind and, to my mind, has an instinctive
>>>understanding of the material.
>>
>>I recommend Ronald Hutton.
>
>I've found the references:
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_Hutton
>
>and
>
>http://druidry.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=PagEd&file=index&topic_id=1&page_id=98
>
>I will look into his writing.
Hutton, Ronald. 1991. The pagan religions of the ancient Britis
Isles. Oxford: Blackwell.
ISBN: 0-631-17288-2
Dewey: 291.093 61
Deals with archaeological and other evidence
for the ancient religions of the British
isles, from pre-historic times to the Celts,
Romano-British and Anglo-Saxons.
Hutton, Ronald. 1996. The stations of the sun: a history of the
ritual year in Britain. Oxford: Oxford University
Press.
ISBN: 0-19-820570-8
Dewey: 294.260941
An examination of the history of seasonal
festivals in Britain, starting with Christmas
and New Year, and following the months of the
year. Also deals with the customs associated
with various festivals in different areas,
including Morris men, football, etc.
>Tell me though, how would you feel about others defining your religion
>as something that you know, as a practitioner of that religion, as
>being something that it isn't?
Well people have called Christianity a sub-set of Abrahamic religion.
And Christians gave both pagans and heathens their names.
Steve Hayes
<republican_...@email.com> wrote:
>>Well Neopagans regard New Agers as "fluffy bunnies", but I wasn't asking your
>>opinion of Neopagans
>
>Implicitly you were because you used the term in your
>description...Neo-Pagans, in my experience, and that is extensive
>(rather more extensive than I would like
Not so, I was merely referring to the source of certain information I had.
> (of whom I regard modern Heathens as a subset),
>
>You can regard Heathens as such all you like but we reject it. Are
>Christians a subset of Judaism? Or your form of Christianity is a
>subset of Catholicism etc etc
No, but it has been called a subset of Christianity, and I don't get my wimmy
in a froth over it.
>A central theme of the Sagas, if you choose to read them, is the
>notion of maximising individual freedom and balancing that against the
>requirements of communal living in order to survive...we stand apart
>from weak indistinct terms such as 'Neo-Pagan'. The title itself makes
>no specific allegiance...we Asatruar are specific.
Of course.
Neopagan is not a term for a religion, it is a general term that describes a
number of different religions.
>> but for your views on how the Icelanding bit you quoted relates to Eostre/Ostara.
>>
>>>> who said that the cult of Ostara was a modern pagan one, and
>>>>that there was no evidence of that in earlier times, apart from Bede's passing
>>>>reference. Since she was a Neopagan, I took her statement as being without
>>>>"studium or ira" -- that she wasn't just making it up in order to mock pagan
>>>>rites.
>>>
>>>No but neither is she likely to have any great understanding of the
>>>material either. Frequently, for example, if they also claim to be
>>>Wiccans they are unaware of the fact that 'Wicca' as a faith started
>>>in 1951, for instance...and instead claim that it is ancient.
>>
>>Which seems to be just what you are doing with the cult of Ostara.
>
>How so?
By claiming that it is ancient.
I'm not saying that there wasn't an ancient cult of Eostre. There may well
have been, but there is no way of knowing what it was.
And Christians have the same problem -- there are references to certain cultic
practices in ancient documents that are no longer practised today, so we can
only guess what they were - such as baptism for the dead. The Mormons have
guessed, and practise what they've guessed, but it isn't ancient.
>>Many Wiccans are quite well aware that it is recent.
>
>Your evidence for that is what precisely?
Wiccans who have told me so.
>>But if you see Eostre/Ostara as a dwarf, but different to the modern
>>conception of dwarfs, how do you see her?
>
>As associated with the Morning Star in the East...she is a lesser
>Goddess and not one that is mentioned as an Aseir or Vanir divinity in
>the Eddas. Some have drawn some similarities between her and
>Nehellenia, a European Continental Goddess. I am not that
>concerned...what I am concerned about is any attempt to diminish
>actual Heathen influence on the modern world...but its still there and
>you yourself use it on a frequent basis e.g. 'Tuesday, Wednesday,
>Thursday and Friday".
>
>Tell me, though, how did the Kiwis get back to New Zealand after they
>left Noah's Ark?
Walked?
New Zealand was part of Gondwanaland in those days.
Steve Hayes
>On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 10:30:19 +0200, Steve Hayes <haye...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>>>>>That's fine by us - let us form their beliefs.
>>>>>But unlike people like you, they grow up about age 8 or so.
>>>>That, is ad hominem.
>>>Then you don't understand.
>
>>What's to understand?
>
>That kids grow up and still believe in God on the basis of their own experiences
>in life.
And the "unlike you" bit?
In my experience kids grow up believing all kinds of things, and the ad
hominems don't help understanding, they hinder it.
bowman
> They're not. At ages above 8, they develop their own beliefs about God.
Apocryphal, but the Jebs are often credited with the famous "Give me a child
for the first seven years, and you may do what you like with him
afterwards"
I was eight or nine before my parents told me about the Good News, and it
never did stick.
Heidi Graw
>"duke" <duckg...@cox.net> wrote in message
>news:subgu3h7skc4hh5ub...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 11:53:05 +0000, Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
> <dirk....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>duke wrote:
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> At last I think I have discovered the source of one of the persistent
>>>> urban
>>>> legends about Easter -- the notion that it originated with a goddess
>>>> called
>>>> Eostre or Ostara who was associated with hares and eggs.
>>> duke wrote:
>>> It's for pre-school children only.
>>Dirk wrote:
>>That's fine by us - let us form their beliefs.
> duke wrote:
> But unlike people like you, they grow up about age 8 or so.
Do you believe adults should have an imaginary friend?
Should adults argue about whose imaginary friend
is stronger or more true than anothers? Should they kill each
other over the validity of each other's imaginary
friends?
If it's o.k. for adults to have one imaginary friend, why not
more than one? Why not two, three, or more?
And just what makes one adult's imaginary friend more
real than another adult's imaginary friend/friends?
Also, is there a reason why an adult should or should
not have a creative imagination? Why is imagination
considered only something a child may be allowed
to engage in?
Consider also: A thought! If you and I have a thought
in mind, is that thought "real?" What makes one thought
more real than another's thought?
Remember: a thought requires energy. Energy is real,
it is tangible and measurable.
If I imagine a god, or any number of gods, I am busy
using energy to create those gods. That energy is real.
It is formed energy. As such, all those imagined things
become real. All deities ever conceived by the human
mind are indeed *real.* The Gods and Goddesses exist!
Neat how that works, eh? ;-)
Take care,
Heidi
Someone else
<haye...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>On Sat, 29 Mar 2008 07:38:17 +1300, Someone else
><republican_...@email.com> wrote:
>
>>>Well Neopagans regard New Agers as "fluffy bunnies", but I wasn't asking your
>>>opinion of Neopagans
>>
>>Implicitly you were because you used the term in your
>>description...Neo-Pagans, in my experience, and that is extensive
>>(rather more extensive than I would like
>
>Not so, I was merely referring to the source of certain information I had.
Ok.
I don't take anyone who describes themselves as 'Neo-Pagan' seriously,
in an academic sense. Its a wishy washy term that displays no firm
committment in any direction. I have much more time for scholarly
committed Christians or Buddhists or Hindu...'Neo-Pagan' and
especially 'Wiccan' are an anathema to me.
>> (of whom I regard modern Heathens as a subset),
>>
>>You can regard Heathens as such all you like but we reject it. Are
>>Christians a subset of Judaism? Or your form of Christianity is a
>>subset of Catholicism etc etc
>
>No, but it has been called a subset of Christianity,
Of course it is but you're missing the point. I will make it more
clearly below.
>and I don't get my wimmy in a froth over it.
Indeed but Judaism hasn't actively and violently sought to repress and
destroy your religion though has it?
Would you like it if people external to your religion insisted on
referring to yours as 'Reformed Messianic Judaism'?
I doubt it...
The very word 'Pagan' is a word of Latin origin and it was the Latin
church's representatives that were the ones that made war, tortured
and murdered my co-religionists hence our rejection of the term
'Neo-Pagan'. We're serious reconstructionists also, we're always
seeking to be 'actual' rather than 'neo'. To describe us as 'Neo'
isn't showing sufficient respect for our avowed determination to
reinstate Heathenry to the degree that it would have been had it not
been suppressed/attacked brutally over history.
We have historical sensitivities and you don't get it because you're
not Heathen.
Olaf Tryggvason: Tortured and murdered Heathens for their faith.
See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Svolder
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianization_of_Scandinavia
Read a bit, between the lines to begin your understanding of how my
religion has been brutally attacked by representatives of
Christianity. Phrases such as "In the following reign of Saint Olaf,
1015-1028, pagan remnants were stamped out and Christianity
entrenched."
A lot is said in a few words...fleshing out the detail of "stamped
out" is revealing of rather, so it would seem, unchristian behaviour.
Charlemagne
See:
http://www.gangleri.nl/articles/64/of-irminsuls-and-world-trees
"Some of you may have heard about the destruction of the Saxon
Irminsul by Charlemagne (Karl der Große, Carolus Magnus) in 772."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlemagne
"He also campaigned against the peoples to his east, especially the
Saxons, and after a protracted war subjected them to his rule. By
forcibly converting them to Christianity, he integrated them into his
realm and thus paved the way for the later Ottonian dynasty."
>>A central theme of the Sagas, if you choose to read them, is the
>>notion of maximising individual freedom and balancing that against the
>>requirements of communal living in order to survive...we stand apart
>>from weak indistinct terms such as 'Neo-Pagan'. The title itself makes
>>no specific allegiance...we Asatruar are specific.
>
>Of course.
>
>Neopagan is not a term for a religion, it is a general term that describes a
>number of different religions.
We Asatruar don't want to be within the general term 'Neo-Pagan' for
the reasons that I state above.
>>> but for your views on how the Icelanding bit you quoted relates to Eostre/Ostara.
>>>
>>>>> who said that the cult of Ostara was a modern pagan one, and
>>>>>that there was no evidence of that in earlier times, apart from Bede's passing
>>>>>reference. Since she was a Neopagan, I took her statement as being without
>>>>>"studium or ira" -- that she wasn't just making it up in order to mock pagan
>>>>>rites.
>>>>
>>>>No but neither is she likely to have any great understanding of the
>>>>material either. Frequently, for example, if they also claim to be
>>>>Wiccans they are unaware of the fact that 'Wicca' as a faith started
>>>>in 1951, for instance...and instead claim that it is ancient.
>>>
>>>Which seems to be just what you are doing with the cult of Ostara.
>>
>>How so?
>
>By claiming that it is ancient.
There is evidence that it is ancient...that you don't see this yet
isn't my issue.
>I'm not saying that there wasn't an ancient cult of Eostre. There may well
>have been, but there is no way of knowing what it was.
Because it was militarily oppressed by Christians perchance?
>And Christians have the same problem -- there are references to certain cultic
>practices in ancient documents that are no longer practised today, so we can
>only guess what they were - such as baptism for the dead. The Mormons have
>guessed, and practise what they've guessed, but it isn't ancient.
Ok.
>>>Many Wiccans are quite well aware that it is recent.
>>
>>Your evidence for that is what precisely?
>
>Wiccans who have told me so.
Ok...how do they feel about their faith being founded by two men one
who was demonstrably a charlatan and the other a Satanist?
>>>But if you see Eostre/Ostara as a dwarf, but different to the modern
>>>conception of dwarfs, how do you see her?
>>
>>As associated with the Morning Star in the East...she is a lesser
>>Goddess and not one that is mentioned as an Aseir or Vanir divinity in
>>the Eddas. Some have drawn some similarities between her and
>>Nehellenia, a European Continental Goddess. I am not that
>>concerned...what I am concerned about is any attempt to diminish
>>actual Heathen influence on the modern world...but its still there and
>>you yourself use it on a frequent basis e.g. 'Tuesday, Wednesday,
>>Thursday and Friday".
>>
>>Tell me, though, how did the Kiwis get back to New Zealand after they
>>left Noah's Ark?
>
>Walked?
Thats what it says in the Bible but I put it to you that Kiwis are
incapable of walking across the Pacific Ocean and even if they were
capable of doing so why aren't there pockets of Kiwis in between New
Zealand and the Middle East?
>New Zealand was part of Gondwanaland in those days.
Are you trying to be funny?
How old do you think the world is?
Someone else
>On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 10:30:19 +0200, Steve Hayes <haye...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>>>>>That's fine by us - let us form their beliefs.
>>>>>But unlike people like you, they grow up about age 8 or so.
>>>>That, is ad hominem.
>>>Then you don't understand.
>
>>What's to understand?
>
>That kids grow up and still believe in God on the basis of their own experiences
>in life.
Or not, as the case may be.
Recently I learned that someone I have known for a number of years was
anally raped by her Evangelical Preacher father regularly...now she
*actively* hates Christianity and whilst I think its sad and
unfortunate, because I have known many good and genuine Christian
people, I can understand why she feels the way she does.
Her father was sent to jail for his crimes against her.
Someone else
<haye...@hotmail.com> wrote:
That is true but it is true because prior to the arrival of
Christianity in Northern Europe the religion practiced there didn't
have a name it was simply 'worshipping the Gods and Goddesses'. We
Asatruar are, in my extensive experience, much much happier with the
term 'Heathen' as an umbrella term...even 'Northern Tradition'.
You wouldn't call the Hindu religion 'Neo-Pagan' would you?
For similar reasons Asatruar ought not be described thusly either. It
only serves to offend...is that helpful? Or not?
sarchasm
> Steve Hayes <haye...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > "Someone else" <republican_...@email.com> wrote:
>
> >Frequently, for example, if they also claim to be
> >Wiccans they are unaware of the fact that 'Wicca' as a faith started
> >in 1951, for instance...and instead claim that it is ancient.
That founding date varies depending upon source but, it is not 'ancient'.
>
> >>Many Wiccans are quite well aware that it is recent.
> >>
> >>Your evidence for that is what precisely?
>>
>>Wiccans who have told me so.
"Gerald Gardner published his High Magic's Aid, a novel about "The Craft,"
in 1949 under the pen-name, "Scire". Guiley has observed, "It is difficult
to say whether Gardner intended to create a new religion or whether it grew
spontaneously from public interest in his writings" (Ibid.). However, Frank
Smyth writes in Man, Myth and Magic, "In the absence of any evidence except
hearsay, there is a strong case in favour of the suggestion that Gardner
invented the cult of Wicca to satisfy his own sense of the esoteric"
(Richard Cavendish, Editor, Vol. 14, p. 1869). Other authors have indicated
that Gardner's revival of Witchcraft also "centered mainly around discreet
sexual frolics in the nude, aided by drugs" (Encyclopedia of Occultism and
Parapsychology, Leslie Shepard, Vol. 1, p. 366)."
>
> Ok...how do they feel about their faith being founded by two men one
> who was demonstrably a charlatan and the other a Satanist?
>
The question is, witch was witch?
"Throughout his life, Gardner was fascinated with many different aspects of
the Occult. He had been a follower in varying degrees of such people and
philosophies as Aleister Crowley, Ordo Templi Orientis, the Hermetic Order
of the Golden Dawn and Rosicrucianism (Encyclopedia of Witches and
Witchcraft, p. 375)."
Someone else
>On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 17:50:02 +1300, Someone else
><republican_...@email.com> wrote:
>
>>Celebration of Eostre by Heathens is *not* only for pre-school
>>children.
>
>We turned the Easter celebration into something worthwhile - the resurrection of
>the Lord.
Are you trying to tell me that celebrating the birth of new life isn't
worthwhile?
Wake up and don't be so blinkered.
>>>>>>That's fine by us - let us form their beliefs.
>>>>>But unlike people like you, they grow up about age 8 or so.
>>>>That, is ad hominem.
>>>Then you don't understand.
>>>duke, American-American
>
>>Your comments appear to be unrelated. Please explain the meaning you
>>wish to convey.
>
>They're not. At ages above 8, they develop their own beliefs about God.
>
>>Tell me though, what understanding of Heathenry do *you* have?
>
>What is it?
It is good that you ask.
Heathenry is, broadly speaking, the religion practiced in most of
Northern Europe prior to the arrival of Christianity. There were many
local variations e.g. Romuva in Latvia, Asa worship in
Scandinavian/Germanic countries, Theodish belief in Saxon areas etc.
You can read more detail at the following links:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/paganism/subdivisions/heathenry_1.shtml
http://www.heimskringla.no/enindex.php
http://web.telia.com/~u85906673/asar/havamal/havamal.html
Blessadur
Steve Hayes
<republican_...@email.com> wrote:
>On Sat, 29 Mar 2008 00:27:44 +0200, Steve Hayes
><haye...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>I don't take anyone who describes themselves as 'Neo-Pagan' seriously,
>in an academic sense. Its a wishy washy term that displays no firm
>committment in any direction. I have much more time for scholarly
>committed Christians or Buddhists or Hindu...'Neo-Pagan' and
>especially 'Wiccan' are an anathema to me.
I don't think anyone would describe themselves as "neopagan" in anything
*other* than an academic sense, any more than Christians, Jews, Muslims,
Druzes etc would describe themselves as "Abrahamics". It's an overarching
classification used by academics, and probably invented by them.
>Would you like it if people external to your religion insisted on
>referring to yours as 'Reformed Messianic Judaism'?
Jews wouldn't.
But it is a historical fact that both Christianity and Rabbinic Judaism sprang
from Second-Temple Judaism.
>The very word 'Pagan' is a word of Latin origin and it was the Latin
>church's representatives that were the ones that made war, tortured
>and murdered my co-religionists hence our rejection of the term
>'Neo-Pagan'. We're serious reconstructionists also, we're always
>seeking to be 'actual' rather than 'neo'. To describe us as 'Neo'
>isn't showing sufficient respect for our avowed determination to
>reinstate Heathenry to the degree that it would have been had it not
>been suppressed/attacked brutally over history.
>
>We have historical sensitivities and you don't get it because you're
>not Heathen.
>
>Olaf Tryggvason: Tortured and murdered Heathens for their faith.
>
>See:
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Svolder
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianization_of_Scandinavia
>
>Read a bit, between the lines to begin your understanding of how my
>religion has been brutally attacked by representatives of
>Christianity. Phrases such as "In the following reign of Saint Olaf,
>1015-1028, pagan remnants were stamped out and Christianity
>entrenched."
>
>A lot is said in a few words...fleshing out the detail of "stamped
>out" is revealing of rather, so it would seem, unchristian behaviour.
Well yes, people did tend behave like that in those days, on both sides.
See, for example, how the heathens treated St Alphege:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alphege
The difference is that that kind of behaviour was part of the Heathen value
system; it wasn't part of the Christian one. This placed Christian kings in a
moral dilemma:
Forgiveness - a fatal virtue in kings.
Source: Mayr-Harting.
Sigbert, king of the East Saxons, was murdered by his
kinsmen, and when they were asked why they had done it, they
had no better answer than that they were incensed 'because he
was too apt to spare his enemies and forgive the wrongs they
had done him'. Barbarian society imposed a positive duty of
revenge on all men; but in addition the thing a king could not
afford to do, if he wanted to fulfil his warriors'
expectations of rewards, was to forgive his enemies; it was a
fatal virtue.
One king who underwent a dramatic turnaround on becoming a Christian was St
Vladimir, prince of Kiev.
He abolished capital punishment, and though he continued to have feasts and
banquets as heathen kings did for their warriors to celebrate their butchery,
he invited the poor and the homeless to his.
But it wasn't easy to keep up that kind of thing, as Sigbert found to his
cost.
>>>>Which seems to be just what you are doing with the cult of Ostara.
>>>
>>>How so?
>>
>>By claiming that it is ancient.
>
>There is evidence that it is ancient...that you don't see this yet
>isn't my issue.
Come off it -- it's *the* issue that we've been discussing in this thread. See
the subject line.
It's just that you haven't produced any evidence that I find convincing.
But perhaps I should clarify one thing. In starting this thread I was not
setting out to "undermine" your religion.
As a "Christian apologist" (your term) I was querying the assertion,
frequently made in the fluff-bunny New Age columns of the secular press, that
the Christian celebration of Pascha was originally stolen from people who
worshipped Eostre, a goddess whose cult included hares and eggs.
One of our local newspapers, the Johannesburg "Star" has a daily New Age
column called "Verve" (making New Age the most publicised religion in a
secular newspaper), which brings up the topic just about every year.
But you don't need to be a Christian apologist to see that it is complete
nonsense and will not stand up to historical scrutiny. A competent historian
of any religion or none would come to that conclusion on the basis of the
available evidence. Nevertheless, the factoid is repeated year after year.
My concern is not to undermine your religion, but to refute a silly untruth
about mine.
>>I'm not saying that there wasn't an ancient cult of Eostre. There may well
>>have been, but there is no way of knowing what it was.
>
>Because it was militarily oppressed by Christians perchance?
Perchance. Perchance also because people adopted different beliefs and their
descendants forgot what it was about because it was no longer important to
them, so that even Bede, who was a lot closer to it in time than we are,
mentioned it as an interesting bit of trivia.
>>>>Many Wiccans are quite well aware that it is recent.
>>>
>>>Your evidence for that is what precisely?
>>
>>Wiccans who have told me so.
>
>Ok...how do they feel about their faith being founded by two men one
>who was demonstrably a charlatan and the other a Satanist?
I think it would be better to leave Wiccans to answer that for themselves. I'm
not their spokesman.
But since you ask, I'll offer my best guess:
As far as I can tell, Wicca is not a historical religion (unlike Christianity
and reconstructionist religions, like Asatru and Hellenism).
It doesn't seem to matter much to Wiccans what the history of something was,
what they do in the present is more important. I don't know if any Wiccans
actually worship Eostre, but if they did, I expect that they would say that it
did not matter much if their cult differed from that of ancient times, because
the present is more important.
Some people (not Wiccans, as far as I know) even worship made-up gods from
works of fiction - Yog Sothoth and deities from the Cthulhu Mythos of H.P.
Lovecraft, for example. So religions can be completly a-historical.
>>>>But if you see Eostre/Ostara as a dwarf, but different to the modern
>>>>conception of dwarfs, how do you see her?
>>>
>>>As associated with the Morning Star in the East...she is a lesser
>>>Goddess and not one that is mentioned as an Aseir or Vanir divinity in
>>>the Eddas. Some have drawn some similarities between her and
>>>Nehellenia, a European Continental Goddess. I am not that
>>>concerned...what I am concerned about is any attempt to diminish
>>>actual Heathen influence on the modern world...but its still there and
>>>you yourself use it on a frequent basis e.g. 'Tuesday, Wednesday,
>>>Thursday and Friday".
>>>
>>>Tell me, though, how did the Kiwis get back to New Zealand after they
>>>left Noah's Ark?
>>
>>Walked?
>
>Thats what it says in the Bible but I put it to you that Kiwis are
>incapable of walking across the Pacific Ocean and even if they were
>capable of doing so why aren't there pockets of Kiwis in between New
>Zealand and the Middle East?
>
>>New Zealand was part of Gondwanaland in those days.
>
>Are you trying to be funny?
Well, someone has to (nothing personal, you understand). It's time to lighten
up a bit.
How did Sleipnir get back to Asgard from the ark?
Heidi Graw
>"Steve Hayes" <haye...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:q7cuu3ttbmsfcgs09...@4ax.com...
(snip)
> See, for example, how the heathens treated St Alphege:
Turning the other cheek is *not* a Heathen virtue.
Steal their stories, deny their deities, come threatening
brimstone and hellfire...well....a Heathen doesn't take
too kindly to the "convert or die" message.
Never again!
And, when it comes to enemies, give no quarter.
Fwiw, I do not permit a fundamentalist Christian
entry into the sanctity of my house, my home.
That kind of Dreck I can do well without!
Heidi
Digim...@starpower.net
wrote:
> On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 10:29:27 -0700 (PDT), "Digimor...@starpower.net"
First, I was NOT replying to you and second, I was not assuming you
were Orthodox.
bowman
> The difference is that that kind of behaviour was part of the Heathen
> value system; it wasn't part of the Christian one. This placed Christian
> kings in a moral dilemma:
"Who will rid me of this troublesome priest?" has been uttered more than
once. While there were and are many Christians who try to live by the
teaching of the new covenant, Christianity has been an extremely thin
veneer upon the Heathen value system. Perhaps I am biased since I live in a
nation where many can mine the juicy bits from both the Old and New
Testaments to justify their actions. Christian triumphalism combined with
secular triumphalism has hardly furthered the course of humanity.
Steve Hayes
>
>>"Steve Hayes" <haye...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:q7cuu3ttbmsfcgs09...@4ax.com...
>(snip)
>
>> See, for example, how the heathens treated St Alphege:
>
>Turning the other cheek is *not* a Heathen virtue.
As the fate of Sigbert, Boris and Gleb makes clear.
Heidi Graw
> On Sun, 30 Mar 2008 07:20:49 GMT, "Heidi Graw" <hg...@telus.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>>"Steve Hayes" <haye...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>news:q7cuu3ttbmsfcgs09...@4ax.com...
>>(snip)
>>
>>> See, for example, how the heathens treated St Alphege:
>>
>>Turning the other cheek is *not* a Heathen virtue.
> Steve wrote:
> As the fate of Sigbert, Boris and Gleb makes clear.
Yes, Christians who turned the other cheek ended
up dead.
I think "turning the other cheek" is about the dumbest
thing Jesus tried to teach his followers.
It's a good thing Heathens don't think like that.
Hit me and there will indeed be consequences! ;-)
Take care,
Heidi
Someone else
<haye...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>On Sun, 30 Mar 2008 09:21:39 +1300, Someone else
><republican_...@email.com> wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 29 Mar 2008 00:27:44 +0200, Steve Hayes
>><haye...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>I don't take anyone who describes themselves as 'Neo-Pagan' seriously,
>>in an academic sense. Its a wishy washy term that displays no firm
>>committment in any direction. I have much more time for scholarly
>>committed Xtians or Buddhists or Hindu...'Neo-Pagan' and
>>especially 'Wiccan' are an anathema to me.
>
>I don't think anyone would describe themselves as "neopagan" in anything
>*other* than an academic sense, any more than Xtians, Jews, Muslims,
>Druzes etc would describe themselves as "Abrahamics".
I appreciate the Abrahamic linkage there but what you're not figuring
into the equation is that Xtianity actively and violently repressed
Heathen belief and practice. The representatives, of Xtianity, to
Scandinavia were speakers of Latin...the represented the Latin
church...Pagan is a Latin word...even though 'Heathen' was a term of
anti-Heathen abuse/ridicule by early Xtians in Northern Europe, at
least it is a word from our own language that we use to define and
describe ourselves.
It is innaccurate.
> It's an overarching
>classification used by academics, and probably invented by them.
Quite possibly but it is a bad fit.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/neo
neo-
pref.
New; recent: neonatal.
New and different: Neo-Freudian.
New and abnormal: neoplasm.
We don't want to be 'neo' are trying always to be the real thing and
calling us that is to denigrate us.
Tell me, if for some bizarre reason, Xtianity was suppressed for
several centuries and then 5-600 years down the track an old Bible was
found and it got going again, would you think it 'neo'
>>Would you like it if people external to your religion insisted on
>>referring to yours as 'Reformed Messianic Judaism'?
>
>Jews wouldn't.
Probably not but I'm asking you.
>But it is a historical fact that both Christianity and Rabbinic Judaism sprang
>from Second-Temple Judaism.
That was the right time as the Second Temple was razed by the Romans
70 CE...some 32-35 years after Jesus' death.
But the question really is how would you prefer to be defined? In
terms of Christianity or of Judaism?
>>The very word 'Pagan' is a word of Latin origin and it was the Latin
>>church's representatives that were the ones that made war, tortured
>>and murdered my co-religionists hence our rejection of the term
>>'Neo-Pagan'. We're serious reconstructionists also, we're always
>>seeking to be 'actual' rather than 'neo'. To describe us as 'Neo'
>>isn't showing sufficient respect for our avowed determination to
>>reinstate Heathenry to the degree that it would have been had it not
>>been suppressed/attacked brutally over history.
>>
>>We have historical sensitivities and you don't get it because you're
>>not Heathen.
>>
>>Olaf Tryggvason: Tortured and murdered Heathens for their faith.
>>
>>See:
>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Svolder
>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianization_of_Scandinavia
>>
>>Read a bit, between the lines to begin your understanding of how my
>>religion has been brutally attacked by representatives of
>>Xtianity. Phrases such as "In the following reign of Saint Olaf,
>>1015-1028, pagan remnants were stamped out and Xtianity
>>entrenched."
>>
>>A lot is said in a few words...fleshing out the detail of "stamped
>>out" is revealing of rather, so it would seem, unxtian behaviour.
>
>Well yes, people did tend behave like that in those days, on both sides.
I don't claim to be a follower of 'the prince of peace' though do I?
The God Tyr, however, was a God of War so...
<cut historical record of Heathen's being violent towards Xtians>
I am quite aware of how some Heathens treated Xtians...but, as above,
I don't claim, as you do, to be a follower of 'the prince of peace'.
>One king who underwent a dramatic turnaround on becoming a Christian was St
>Vladimir, prince of Kiev.
>
>He abolished capital punishment, and though he continued to have feasts and
>banquets as heathen kings did for their warriors to celebrate their butchery,
>he invited the poor and the homeless to his.
>
>But it wasn't easy to keep up that kind of thing, as Sigbert found to his
>cost.
>
>>>>>Which seems to be just what you are doing with the cult of Ostara.
>>>>
>>>>How so?
>>>
>>>By claiming that it is ancient.
>>
>>There is evidence that it is ancient...that you don't see this yet
>>isn't my issue.
>
>Come off it -- it's *the* issue that we've been discussing in this thread. See
>the subject line.
Saint Bede said it was...
>It's just that you haven't produced any evidence that I find convincing.
>
>But perhaps I should clarify one thing. In starting this thread I was not
>setting out to "undermine" your religion.
>
>As a "Christian apologist" (your term) I was querying the assertion,
>frequently made in the fluff-bunny New Age columns of the secular press, that
>the Christian celebration of Pascha was originally stolen from people who
>worshipped Eostre, a goddess whose cult included hares and eggs.
I actually wouldn't want te defend fluffy bunny 'neo-pagans'. They
give me a pain in the arse.
I'm discussing the broader issues surrounding the matters raised in
the origin of this thread...
The notion though, of celebrating the return of Spring oughtn't be a
hard one to grasp and that eggs and hares are also, for obvious
reasons, symbols of fertility. Coupling with that the name for the
beginning month of spring in the Northern hemisphere as I have already
quoted from Bede, Charlemagne and others..if that is insufficient to
convince you then there's not too much more than I can say.
>One of our local newspapers, the Johannesburg "Star" has a daily New Age
>column called "Verve" (making New Age the most publicised religion in a
>secular newspaper),
"New Age" isn't a religion.
>which brings up the topic just about every year.
>
>But you don't need to be a Christian apologist to see that it is complete
>nonsense and will not stand up to historical scrutiny. A competent historian
>of any religion or none would come to that conclusion on the basis of the
>available evidence. Nevertheless, the factoid is repeated year after year.
Well...ye know...there were variations and local divinities all across
Europe and into Asia...indeed the Aseir came from Asia...hence the
term Asatru...Tru to the Aseir. There was a Goddess named Astarte and
another called Eos...it is entirely possible that they're right.
A principle of reasoning which ought to always be born in mind is
'absence of evidence is not evidence of absense'.
>My concern is not to undermine your religion, but to refute a silly untruth
>about mine.
Yours?
>>>I'm not saying that there wasn't an ancient cult of Eostre. There may well
>>>have been, but there is no way of knowing what it was.
>>
>>Because it was militarily oppressed by Christians perchance?
>
>Perchance. Perchance also because people adopted different beliefs and their
>descendants forgot what it was about because it was no longer important to
>them,
At the end of a sword.
> so that even Bede, who was a lot closer to it in time than we are,
>mentioned it as an interesting bit of trivia.
Its not trivial.
>>>>>Many Wiccans are quite well aware that it is recent.
>>>>
>>>>Your evidence for that is what precisely?
>>>
>>>Wiccans who have told me so.
>>
>>Ok...how do they feel about their faith being founded by two men one
>>who was demonstrably a charlatan and the other a Satanist?
>
>I think it would be better to leave Wiccans to answer that for themselves. I'm
>not their spokesman.
>
>But since you ask, I'll offer my best guess:
>
>As far as I can tell, Wicca is not a historical religion
I have met many who claimed that it was.
> (unlike Christianity
>and reconstructionist religions, like Asatru and Hellenism).
Right.
>It doesn't seem to matter much to Wiccans what the history of something was,
But they go on and on about different aspects of history so I would
discount that.
>what they do in the present is more important. I don't know if any Wiccans
>actually worship Eostre, but if they did, I expect that they would say that it
>did not matter much if their cult differed from that of ancient times, because
>the present is more important.
That, in my view, is brainless.
>Some people (not Wiccans, as far as I know) even worship made-up gods from
>works of fiction - Yog Sothoth and deities from the Cthulhu Mythos of H.P.
>Lovecraft, for example.
So you're convinced that there are peoople that regularly parade
around a fire chanting Yog Sothoth?
You think that there are people who genuinely, in their heart of
hearts, are trying to raise C'thulhu from the bottom of the ocean so
that he may then destroy the world?
I think people are having you on.
>So religions can be completly a-historical.
>>>>>But if you see Eostre/Ostara as a dwarf, but different to the modern
>>>>>conception of dwarfs, how do you see her?
>>>>
>>>>As associated with the Morning Star in the East...she is a lesser
>>>>Goddess and not one that is mentioned as an Aseir or Vanir divinity in
>>>>the Eddas. Some have drawn some similarities between her and
>>>>Nehellenia, a European Continental Goddess. I am not that
>>>>concerned...what I am concerned about is any attempt to diminish
>>>>actual Heathen influence on the modern world...but its still there and
>>>>you yourself use it on a frequent basis e.g. 'Tuesday, Wednesday,
>>>>Thursday and Friday".
>>>>
>>>>Tell me, though, how did the Kiwis get back to New Zealand after they
>>>>left Noah's Ark?
>>>
>>>Walked?
>>
>>Thats what it says in the Bible but I put it to you that Kiwis are
>>incapable of walking across the Pacific Ocean and even if they were
>>capable of doing so why aren't there pockets of Kiwis in between New
>>Zealand and the Middle East?
>>
>>>New Zealand was part of Gondwanaland in those days.
>>
>>Are you trying to be funny?
>
>Well, someone has to (nothing personal, you understand). It's time to lighten
>up a bit.
New Zealand was not part of Gondwanaland then...Gondwanaland was
around 500-200 million years ago.
>How did Sleipnir get back to Asgard from the ark?
There was no ark for Sleipnir to be on.
Someone else
<haye...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>On Sun, 30 Mar 2008 07:20:49 GMT, "Heidi Graw" <hg...@telus.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>>"Steve Hayes" <haye...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>news:q7cuu3ttbmsfcgs09...@4ax.com...
>>(snip)
>>
>>> See, for example, how the heathens treated St Alphege:
>>
>>Turning the other cheek is *not* a Heathen virtue.
>
>As the fate of Sigbert, Boris and Gleb makes clear.
We don't claim to be followers of the 'prince of peace' though.
Heidi Graw
all those crosspostings to other newsgroups...]
>"Doug Freyburger" <dfre...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:552c0c68-e99f-4695...@a1g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
(snip)
>>Nik wrote:
>> Tell me, if for some bizarre reason, Xtianity was suppressed for
>> several centuries and then 5-600 years down the track an old Bible was
>> found and it got going again, would you think it 'neo'
> Doug wrote:
> I most certainly would call that neo. A complete break in
> practice would call for it. We in Asatru did see a complete
> break in practice.
So, you don't mind being labelled a neo-heathen?
The problem is that "neo" has assumed a negative
connotation. Neo does not just mean new, but also
that this newness is something bad.
Now, take the example of the Natives. Depending
where they lived in the past 500 to 150 years or so ago,
their religious practises and their stories have been
villified and suppressed by Chrisitian missionaries.
This has had a devastating effect on the Natives.
They are now busy reclaiming their own heritages,
religions and piecing together their scraps of lore,
that was left behind. They are also trying to preserve
their own languages which are fast becoming
exinct. But they're not calling themselves
neo-anything!
As far as Asatru is concerned, we've got our distorted
lore scraps, we have biased historical writings describing
our customs, laws and religious practises. There exist
also built-in biases in linguistics due to the adherence
to a classical education.
To get a picture of the past, we have to work through
all those distortions. Some great progress has been
made, and more needs to be done.
At best we could say that Asatru is a blend of
old and new. And given the negative connotation
assigned to "neo," I, for one, would completely
and utterly reject being refered as a Neo-Heathen.
There are some historical roots we can cling to
that lend legitimacy to our claim as real and
bonafide Asatru-Heathens. ;-)
Take care,
Heidi
Someone else
Check your attributions and whilst you're at it, realise that you're
in several public newsgroups concurrently.
> and second, I was not assuming you were Orthodox.
I am sure you can forgive me, being the good Christian you are, for
inferring from your comment "We should use the correct term Pascha"
that you were including me and my Heathen co-religionists in the 'we'.
James
>Re: Easter and the pagan goddess
>At last I think I have discovered the source of one of the persistent urban
>legends about Easter -- the notion that it originated with a goddess called
>Eostre or Ostara who was associated with hares and eggs.
>
>The only reference I could find to this was the Venerable Bede, who recorded
>that the old English name for April was Eostremonath, from which the modern
>English word "Easter" comes, and he thought it was named after a goddess
>Eostre, about whom nothing more is known.
>
>As one blogger notes, "Jacob Grimm took up this remark of Bede, taking the
>German name for the month, Ostara, as the name of a Germanic fertility
>goddess. The Icelandic sagas, our primary source for Germanic paganism, make
>no mention of such a goddess."
>
>And suddenly things fall into place for me.
>
>Christianity was spread in Germany largely by English missionaries (Boniface,
>Willibrord & Co), whose ancestors had migrated from Germany only a few
>generations before. At that time the languages had probably not diverged very
>much, so the English and German dialects were probably mutually intelligible.
>In such circumstances it is quite conceivable that the German Christians took
>over the English missionaries’ word for Pascha, which in German became Ostern.
>
>I’m rather surprised that Grimm, as a linguist and philologist, didn’t
>apparently think of this. It’s also interesting that this didn’t happen to the
>Dutch, for whom Pascha became Paas, since they were also largely evangelised
>by English missionaries, but they were also closer to the Franks/Gauls, and
>were perhaps influenced by them.
>
Hello,
Yet, the bottom line is that at Easter time, many professed Christians
mix in ancient pagan rituals such as rabbits and colored eggs etc,
into their celebration of Christ's resurrection.
But genuine Christians go by God's word, the Holy Bible. (2 Ti 3:16)
They believe the principle stated by one of Jesus' hand-picked
apostles; "what fellowship can light have with darkness". (2 Co 6:14)
Sincerely, James
**If you wish to have a discussion with me, please use email since I
do not follow ng threads
***********************************
Want a Free home Bible study?
Have Jehovah's Witnesses questions?
Go to the authorized source:
http://www.watchtower.org
***********************************
>Anyone interested in the full story with links can check my blog at:
>
>http://khanya.wordpress.com/2008/03/22/easter-for-some/
James
>Re: Easter and the pagan goddess
>
><Digim...@starpower.net> wrote in message
>news:b77fbef9-79db-4f9d...@s37g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>On Mar 24, 6:08 am, Someone else <republican_remove_sp...@email.com>
>wrote:
>
>>
>> Your evidence for that will need to explain away the commonality, to
>> *all* of the examples I've given to the 'Eastern Star, the bright star
>> of the morning - Venus'.
>>
>> >Having dismissed Nativity/Christmas because it's timing coincides with
>> >a number of pagan solar festivals,
>>
>> Plainly the Biblical account of Christ's birth does not coincide with
>> him being born in late December...there are shepherd out in the field
>> with their sheep, for example, in Bethlehem in late December the sheep
>> would have all been inside with their shepherds due to the cold. Or
>> consider what it was that Joseph and Mary were doing at the time of
>> their trip to Bethlehem, they were returning the city of Joseph's
>> birth by the command of the Roman Governor to participate in a
>> census...now what time of the year, in the ancient world, would have
>> been the time of census?
>>
>> Harvest time...late September/October...not December.
>>
>> Also, the fact of the matter is that the 25th of December is almost
>> smack on the time of Sol Invictus and Yuletide...hence the saying that
>> still survives in common vernacular, 'Yuletide Greetings'.
>>
>
>
>I have tried for years to explain the whole Christ was not born in
>December thing here but to no avail...
>
>
>***We all agree with you. But, so what? I'll bet today, March 25, the real
>Annunciation didn't take place, wither. so what?
>
Hello,
True, the evidence points to Jesus NOT being born in December. Also,
as the title suggests, the evidence points to the popular modern
Easter celebration containing elements of ancient pagan rituals.
(colored eggs, rabbits, etc)
So, who cares? God does. God wants His true servants to "worship the
Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship
him." (Joh 4:23)
God also does not want His servants to be mixing in pagan things, with
His true worship. As this Bible principle states: "what fellowship can
light have with darkness". (2 Co 6:14)
This genuine worshippers of God try to make sure that all the things
they do in their worship, is as accurate as possible, and are free of
the contamination of false religions.
++
Do you have a virus from those people?
OrthodoxNews
forthright about who they really are.
Al
"++" <fri...@spambot.com> wrote in message
news:os2dnYbF0-Um8orV...@rcn.net...
OrthodoxNews
email address is "leushinonospam".
"OrthodoxNews" <Orth...@nospam04.net> wrote in message
news:fv80p...@enews4.newsguy.com...
Steve Hayes
>Steve Hayes <haye...@hotmail.com>
>>Christianity was spread in Germany largely by English missionaries (Boniface,
>>Willibrord & Co), whose ancestors had migrated from Germany only a few
>>generations before. At that time the languages had probably not diverged very
>>much, so the English and German dialects were probably mutually intelligible.
>>In such circumstances it is quite conceivable that the German Christians took
>>over the English missionaries’ word for Pascha, which in German became Ostern.
>>
>>I’m rather surprised that Grimm, as a linguist and philologist, didn’t
>>apparently think of this. It’s also interesting that this didn’t happen to the
>>Dutch, for whom Pascha became Paas, since they were also largely evangelised
>>by English missionaries, but they were also closer to the Franks/Gauls, and
>>were perhaps influenced by them.
>>
>
>Hello,
>
>Yet, the bottom line is that at Easter time, many professed Christians
>mix in ancient pagan rituals such as rabbits and colored eggs etc,
>into their celebration of Christ's resurrection.
I've no idea where the rabbits come from, but the eggs are Christian.
Though I must say that I regard Easter eggs without Easter bacon as rather
incomplete.
Digim...@starpower.net
> <Digimor...@starpower.net> wrote in message
>
> news:b77fbef9-79db-4f9d...@s37g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> On Mar 24, 6:08 am, Someone else <republican_remove_sp...@email.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Your evidence for that will need to explain away the commonality, to
> > *all* of the examples I've given to the 'Eastern Star, the bright star
> > of the morning - Venus'.
>
> > >Having dismissed Nativity/Christmas because it's timing coincides with
> > >a number of pagan solar festivals,
>
> > Plainly the Biblical account of Christ's birth does not coincide with
> > him being born in late December...there are shepherd out in the field
> > with their sheep, for example, in Bethlehem in late December the sheep
> > would have all been inside with their shepherds due to the cold. Or
> > consider what it was that Joseph and Mary were doing at the time of
> > their trip to Bethlehem, they were returning the city of Joseph's
> > birth by the command of the Roman Governor to participate in a
> > census...now what time of the year, in the ancient world, would have
> > been the time of census?
>
> > Harvest time...late September/October...not December.
>
> > Also, the fact of the matter is that the 25th of December is almost
> > smack on the time of Sol Invictus and Yuletide...hence the saying that
> > still survives in common vernacular, 'Yuletide Greetings'.
>
> I have tried for years to explain the whole Christ was not born in
> December thing here but to no avail...
>
> ***We all agree with you. But, so what? I'll bet today, March 25, the real
>
> - Show quoted text -
Feasts had to be fulfilled Al, that's what.
Neolithic
<republican_...@email.com> wrote:
>On Mon, 31 Mar 2008 01:32:42 +0200, Steve Hayes
><haye...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 30 Mar 2008 07:20:49 GMT, "Heidi Graw" <hg...@telus.net> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>>"Steve Hayes" <haye...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>news:q7cuu3ttbmsfcgs09...@4ax.com...
>>>(snip)
>>>
>>>> See, for example, how the heathens treated St Alphege:
>>>
>>>Turning the other cheek is *not* a Heathen virtue.
>>
>>As the fate of Sigbert, Boris and Gleb makes clear.
>
>We don't claim to be followers of the 'prince of peace' though.
Last word.
Neolithic
<republican_...@email.com> wrote:
>On Mon, 31 Mar 2008 01:32:42 +0200, Steve Hayes
><haye...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 30 Mar 2008 07:20:49 GMT, "Heidi Graw" <hg...@telus.net> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>>"Steve Hayes" <haye...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>news:q7cuu3ttbmsfcgs09...@4ax.com...
>>>(snip)
>>>
>>>> See, for example, how the heathens treated St Alphege:
>>>
>>>Turning the other cheek is *not* a Heathen virtue.
>>
>>As the fate of Sigbert, Boris and Gleb makes clear.
>
>We don't claim to be followers of the 'prince of peace' though.
Last word.