What is a Religious Experience? - alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic

The old Google Groups will be going away soon, but your browser is incompatible with the new version.
alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic
Message from discussion What is a Religious Experience?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Path: pr3ni13040pbb.0!nntp.google.com!news2.google.com!goblin1!goblin.stu.neva.ru!news.albasani.net!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: "Giga" <"Giga" <just(removetheseandaddmatthe end)ho...@yahoo.co>
Newsgroups: alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic,alt.philosophy,alt.atheism
Subject: Re: What is a Religious Experience?
Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 09:48:07 +0100
Organization: albasani.net
Lines: 219
Message-ID: <joijp5$ss7$1@news.albasani.net>
References: <slrnjqmm24.dik.badass.superman@badass.edu> <joftmu$mq6$1@news.albasani.net> <4fabe678$0$291$edfadb0f@dtext01.news.tele.dk> <joh8fm$enr$1@news.albasani.net> <4facb2ba$0$282$edfadb0f@dtext01.news.tele.dk>
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 08:48:37 +0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: news.albasani.net; logging-data="2e70Yvqlq0ZOOG91subTiG9w9OUoAKnvDXQW3Pbj2xfqicV7/mNbJU+kCl93J+ketb6aWdgZglHp/aBMAA+EcgZ6a7Y8989aIuA6YojM8PNHyz4VDkYRr35P37y5vVRo"; mail-complaints-to="ab...@albasani.net"
Cancel-Lock: sha1:MFivfxO4WNGYCkf1Pre/Ita623k=


"thomas p." <gudl...@yahoo.com> wrote in message 
news:4facb2ba$0$282$edfadb0f@dtext01.news.tele.dk...
> "Giga" <"Giga" <just(removetheseandaddmatthe end)ho...@yahoo.co> skrev i 
> meddelelsen news:joh8fm$enr$1@news.albasani.net...
>>
>> "thomas p." <gudl...@yahoo.com> wrote in message 
>> news:4fabe678$0$291$edfadb0f@dtext01.news.tele.dk...
>>> "Giga" <"Giga" <just(removetheseandaddmatthe end)ho...@yahoo.co> skrev i
>>>>>
>>>>> I am not interested in whether the experiences do ultimately issue 
>>>>> from an
>>>>> exterior source, even if it were possible to determine. I am 
>>>>> interested in
>>>>> what makes them unique. One of these marks as I've said is a sense of 
>>>>> having
>>>>> come to us in spite of ourselves - that is, without a conscious 
>>>>> intention to
>>>>> have such an experience.
>>>>
>>>> I agree. That it what makes it an 'experience' rather than a fantasy 
>>>> etc.
>>>
>>>
>>> According to whom?
>>>
>>
>> Would you disagree that the fact it is not self-produced (or at least 
>> appears that way) is the difference between fantasy and experience? Or at 
>> least one of them. That feeling that something happening *to* you.
>
> I have no idea why you think so.  Mentally ill people do not think their 
> delusions are self-produced.
>

Again I wouldn't know. If it is the case that a metally ill person's unusual 
experiences are very similar to real experience (in this way) then what 
relevance does that have for someone who has none or few of the other usual 
signs of significant mental illness?

>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> What are some other hallmarks of religious feelings? Another element 
>>>>> of all
>>>>> religious feeling is it's captivating aspect.  It for a moment at 
>>>>> least is
>>>>> transfixing, and we are struck by it, by it's uniqueness from all 
>>>>> other
>>>>> types of experience we may have had.  It may not be interpreted in 
>>>>> religious
>>>>> terms, but there is no denying the powerful pull it exerts on the 
>>>>> person who
>>>>> has it, such that he is able to recall it even many years later.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>> It is very novel as you say and intense often emotionally.
>>>
>>> So are many forms of hallucinations and the voices schizophrenics report 
>>> hearing.  So what?
>>>
>>
>> If you say so. I wouldn't know.
>
> How can you not know?  Are you under the impression that delusions cannot 
> be very intense and emotional?
>

I've got no experience of what it is like I'm glad to say, so have no way to 
compare it.

>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> What are some other aspects of religious feeling?
>>>>
>>>> It changes a persons view of life and what may be beyond it. IOW it has 
>>>> profound affects on them just like other intense life experiences (this 
>>>> doesn't happen with dreams, fantasies or halucinations normally).
>>>
>>>
>>> It doesn't?  Because you say so?
>>
>
>
>> At least not for me AFAIK.
>
> What does that mean?  Have you had both halucinations and real religious 
> experiences and had some objective way to judge between them?

Obviously I have had dreams and daydreams. Also I have experienced very mild 
visual illusions before from smoking. In those cases I was fully aware at 
the time or shortly afterwards that they were probably self-generated. As 
opposed to everyday experience or occasional 'spiritual' experiences I have 
had. There is nothing objective here. We are talking about personal 
subjective experiences.

>  In any event delusional people are ususally very convinced that their 
> experiences are real, and such experiences have had profound consequences 
> on their lives.
>


The former is true, not sure about the later. If you are making the point 
that whatever experiences I have had could be mental aberations or chemical 
induced etc of course you are right. On the other they may not have been, 
and the weight of evidence IMO is that they were not. Also they may not have 
been what they appeared to be. This is even a better objection to any 
conclusions from their content I would say. Then they are open to 
interpretation and false memory as well. So for myself they are not great 
evidence for anything but more of starting point, like a glimpse of what 
might be true. For anyone else they would present very little evidence if 
any even if they believed me and thought I was not halucinating etc.

>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> What are some of the
>>>>> differences between the religious experiences of people already 
>>>>> steeped in
>>>>> religion and those of people without the terminology or schema to wrap 
>>>>> their
>>>>> experience in?
>>>>
>>>> I suppose it *must* be expressed in some symbolism appropriate to the 
>>>> person. Certainly in retrospect they will need to use their own 
>>>> resources to interpret it and frame it within their cultural 
>>>> understanding. That is an interesting point!
>>>
>>> People with a religious background will often interpret an hallucination 
>>> as a religious experience, others may not.  You think this is something 
>>> special?
>>>
>>
>
>
>> Difficult to say, it might be. It is so personal.
>
> But you did say it.

See above

>
>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Does religious feeling have to include an experience of 'God?'
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Buddhist would say not but does partly depend on what counts as a 
>>>> religious experience. Does experience of your self as not-limited to 
>>>> the physical body count as a religious experience (spiritual 
>>>> experience)? Is that an experience of God or just part of oneself that 
>>>> is beyond the physical?
>>>
>>> Or is it similar to the hallucinations expereienced by people who take 
>>> acid?
>>>
>>
>> This is something anyone can experience through very low-level meditation 
>> I would say. Once you realise that your thoughts are not you then things 
>> become clearer it seemed to me.
>
> Once you realize that everything you describe is quite common to people 
> who are mentally ill or under the influence of drugs, you will see that 
> you no basis for any of the claims you made above.
>

Do *you* have any evidence for that statement lol.

>
>>
>>>>> Is religious
>>>>> feeling incompatible with atheism?
>>>>
>>>> I would say an experience that seems to imply a supernatural element to 
>>>> life is.
>>>
>>>
>>> I would say that leprechauns like to do the Hokey Pokey.
>>>
>>
>> OK.
>
> Never mind.  I was fairly sure that you would not be unduly disturbed by 
> reality.
>

OK

>
>>
>>>>
>>>>> Can a religious experience ever
>>>>> contradict previously held religious beliefs rather than be 
>>>>> interpreted in
>>>>> terms of those beliefs?
>>>>
>>>> I suspect that religious ideas that do not have a foundation in 
>>>> personal mystic experiences are probably quite shallow and would be 
>>>> severly challenged by any such experience even if it were compatible 
>>>> with them. This is because these ideas would only be accepted on a very 
>>>> shallow basis and not really believed fully. A kind of cheap beleif, 
>>>> that is just there and convenient and comforting etc.
>>>
>>> I suspect that one can say or suspect many things without any objective 
>>> basis in reality.
>>>
>>
>> For sure.
>
> And, no doubt, you will continue to play your silly, dishonest game.
>

Believe whatever suits you, however I suspect the truth would be that in the 
long run.
Create a group - Google Groups - Google Home - Terms of Service - Privacy Policy
Account Options
