Confused about the "unbloody re-enactment" at Mass
Jonathan Aquino
websites about the Mass:
Is the Sacrifice of the Mass:
a) the same Person (Jesus) making a DIFFERENT sacrifice at each Mass
b) the same Person (Jesus) making the SAME sacrifice at each Mass
I'm intrigued by (b). It breaks the laws of physics because it is a
single event that occurs at multiple points in time. It's as if, as
one website put it, the Body and Blood "[transcend] time and space,
enabling us to be present at the foot of the Cross".
Is this what the Church teaches? If so, I say, Wow!
Jon
Edward Curtis
Aquino says...
It's (b). As the writer of Hebrews says, Christ was sacrificed (at
Calvary) *once for all*, so the "sacrifice of the Mass" must be
identified with that one sacrifice.
Read paragraphs 1366-67 of the Catechism.
Edward
nethead8
> Haven't been able to clear up this question after reading various
> websites about the Mass:
>
> Is the Sacrifice of the Mass:
>
>
> a) the same Person (Jesus) making a DIFFERENT sacrifice at each Mass
>
> b) the same Person (Jesus) making the SAME sacrifice at each Mass
>
>
> I'm intrigued by (b). It breaks the laws of physics because it is a
> single event that occurs at multiple points in time.
God is not limited by the laws of physics.
>It's as if, as
> one website put it, the Body and Blood "[transcend] time and space,
> enabling us to be present at the foot of the Cross".
I'd say that's a good description of it.....
God exists outside of time and space as we know it.
Before there even was such a thing as time, or a measurement of it, God existed.
There was never a time or place where He didn't exist, or won't exist in the future.
>
> Is this what the Church teaches? If so, I say, Wow!
Yes, I agree.... God is awesome.
Jack
>
> Jon
Brian
Glad to see there are other Anglicans in this newsgroup. You do realize that
is an Anglican opinion you made.
"Done once by Christ on the cross". Now "we" make the sacrifice of the
Eucharist and with Christ's Body and Blood offer up "our souls and bodies to
be made clean by his body and our souls washed through his most precious
blood so that he may dwell in us and we in him" 1928 Book of Common prayer.
That is why Anglicans prefer a "cross" to a crucifix as the sacrifice is
done. Now the cross is EMPTY to show he lives! But he leaves the cross to
remind us of what was done.
Well that is Anglicanism. But it IS the literal Body and Blood of Christ
just that he did the sacrifice once and that is enough.
Peace,
Brian D.
Peace,
Brian D.
"nethead8" <neth...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:ZdnYa.37865$Bp2.5760@fed1read07...
Charles P
> Haven't been able to clear up this question after reading various
> websites about the Mass:
Here's something else for you to think about. These monotheists say God is
really just
one God. However, there seems to be three distinct, separate entities.
1=3. This breaks the laws of mathematics, not just the laws of physics.
Also, they say that the Holy Ghost made Mary pregnant. They say that Jesus
is
also the Holy Ghost. Mary is the mother of Jesus, so in effect, Jesus got
His
own mother pregnant with Himself! While you at it, start thinking abou that
one! Wow!
Daniel S. Vieira
> Is the Sacrifice of the Mass:
> a) the same Person (Jesus) making a DIFFERENT sacrifice at each Mass
>
> b) the same Person (Jesus) making the SAME sacrifice at each Mass
B -- although that's not exactly what's happening. The Sacrifice
of the Mass is a *re-presentation* (in the literal meaning of
the word) of the one Sacrifice of Christ.
From the Catechism:
1367 The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one
single sacrifice: "The victim is one and the same: the same now offers
through the ministry of priests, who then offered himself on the cross;
only the manner of offering is different." "In this divine sacrifice
which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself
once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and is
offered in an unbloody manner."[188]
Thus, the sacrifice that Christ made of himself on the Cross
become present for us sacramentally and substantially in
the Eucharist. Christ himself, physically, does not leave
heaven, but as his body transcends time and space, the Real
Presence of Christ in the species is the *same* Body and
Blood that died on the cross for removal of sin (present not
physically, but substantially and sacramentally.)
This is, of course, all done through the power of God, so
attempts to understand it fully are futile at best, and
can lead to heretical doctrines at worst. Best to take
Christ at his word: "I am with you always, even to the
end of the age." -- Matthew 28:20
> I'm intrigued by (b). It breaks the laws of physics because it is a
> single event that occurs at multiple points in time. It's as if, as
> one website put it, the Body and Blood "[transcend] time and space,
> enabling us to be present at the foot of the Cross".
Christ is trully present in the Eucharist, and so of course
his presence does "break physics," but since he is the
author of physics, he is not contained by them.
Council of Trent
Thriteenth Session, on the Eucharist
http://history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct13.html
CHAPTER I.
On the real presence of our Lord Jesus Christ in the most holy sacrament
of the Eucharist.
In the first place, the holy Synod teaches, and openly and simply
professes, that, in the august sacrament of the holy Eucharist, after
the consecration of the bread and wine, our Lord Jesus Christ, true God
and man, is truly, really, and substantially contained under the species
of those sensible things. For neither are these things mutually
repugnant,-that our Saviour Himself always sitteth at the right hand of
the Father in heaven, according to the natural mode of existing, and
that, nevertheless, He be, in many other places, sacramentally present
to us in his own substance, by a manner of existing, which, though we
can scarcely express it in words, yet can we, by the understanding
illuminated by faith, conceive, and we ought most firmly to believe, to
be possible unto God...
--------------------------------
We should also remember that the Eucharist is not a memorial,
nor is it just the Real Presence (although it truly is both
of these), but as the Sacrifice of the Mass is a real
re-presentation of the Sacrifice of the Cross, making real
*now* (in our present time) what was so real *then*, the
Sacrifice is a propititation to the Father for our sins:
Council of Trent
Twenty-Second Session, On the Sacrifice of the Mass
http://history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct22.html
CHAPTER II.
That the Sacrifice of the Mass is propitiatory both for the living and
the dead.
And forasmuch as, in this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the
mass, that same Christ is contained and immolated in an unbloody manner,
who once offered Himself in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross;
the holy Synod teaches, that this sacrifice is truly propritiatory and
that by means thereof this is effected, that we obtain mercy, and find
grace in seasonable aid, if we draw nigh unto God, contrite and
penitent, with a sincere heart and upright faith, with fear and
reverence. For the Lord, appeased by the oblation thereof, and granting
the grace and gift of penitence, forgives even heinous crimes and sins.
For the victim is one and the same, the same now offering by the
ministry of priests, who then offered Himself on the cross, the manner
alone of offering being different. The fruits indeed of which oblation,
of that bloody one to wit, are received most plentifully through this
unbloody one; so far is this (latter) from derogating in any way from
that (former oblation). Wherefore, not only for the sins, punishments,
satisfactions, and other necessities of the faithful who are living, but
also for those who are departed in Christ, and who are not as yet fully
purified, is it rightly offered, agreebly to a tradition of the apostles.
--------------------------
Note that the Fathers at Trent said that the saluatory effects
of the Sacrifice of the Cross are received *through* the
Sacrifice of the Mass. Thus, the Mass is not a "new"
sacrifice of Christ (that would be ridiculous), but a full
*re-presentation* (the hyphen is intentional!) of that one
Sacrifice for all sins, and so the saving effects of the
Atonement are given to us today by the re-presentation of
Christ's one, final sacrifice for all sin.
> Is this what the Church teaches? If so, I say, Wow!
Indeed! Let's close with some teaching from Dr. Aquinas on
the Sacrifice of the Mass:
St. Thomas Aquinas
Summa III.83.1
http://www.newadvent.org/summa/408301.htm
Whether Christ is sacrificed in this sacrament [the Eucharist]?
The celebration of this sacrament is called a sacrifice for two reasons.
First, because, as Augustine says (Ad Simplician. ii), "the images of
things are called by the names of the things whereof they are the
images; as when we look upon a picture or a fresco, we say, 'This is
Cicero and that is Sallust.'" But, as was said above (79, 1), the
celebration of this sacrament is an image representing Christ's Passion,
which is His true sacrifice. Accordingly the celebration of this
sacrament is called Christ's sacrifice. Hence it is that Ambrose, in
commenting on Heb. 10:1, says: "In Christ was offered up a sacrifice
capable of giving eternal salvation; what then do we do? Do we not offer
it up every day in memory of His death?" Secondly it is called a
sacrifice, in respect of the effect of His Passion: because, to wit, by
this sacrament, we are made partakers of the fruit of our Lord's
Passion. Hence in one of the Sunday Secrets (Ninth Sunday after
Pentecost) we say: "Whenever the commemoration of this sacrifice is
celebrated, the work of our redemption is enacted." Consequently,
according to the first reason, it is true to say that Christ was
sacrificed, even in the figures of the Old Testament: hence it is stated
in the Apocalypse (13:8): "Whose names are not written in the Book of
Life of the Lamb, which was slain from the beginning of the world." But
according to the second reason, it is proper to this sacrament for
Christ to be sacrificed in its celebration.
---------------------------
Daniel
------
_____________________________________________________________
Daniel S. Vieira |"Quid enim est stultius quam
Professor of Sociology | incerta pro certis habere,
http://www.danielvieira.com | falsa pro veris?" -- Cicero
"Nemo enim se mutat; qui mutari se desperet" -- Seneca
_____________________________________________________________
Jonathan Aquino
my question could be made more specific. Here's a revised version:
Is the Sacrifice of the Mass:
1) the same Person (Jesus) making a DIFFERENT presentation of the SAME
sacrifice at each Mass
2) the same Person (Jesus) making the SAME presentation of the SAME
sacrifice at each Mass
I think Daniel is saying it's (1) when he says that the "Sacrifice of
the Mass is a *re-presentation* of the one Sacrifice of Christ". Same
Sacrifice, same Presenter, but repeated presentations.
Doesn't have the same intriguing physics-weirdness of (2), but hey,
it's still amazing!
Jon
Christopher Robin
"Jonathan Aquino" <Jon_A...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:fc08a59c.03080...@posting.google.com...
Christ's Sacrifice is "ONCE FOR ALL" So it is the SAME SACRIFICE being
presented by the SAME PERSON for ALL TIME. (Revelation 5:6, Then I saw a
Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the
throne,)
It is not a different presentation of the same sacrifice. Christ makes the
one presentation for all time...
Don't apply Physics to God...
bam
"Christopher Robin" <anony...@hotmail.com> wrote
> Christ's Sacrifice is "ONCE FOR ALL" So it is the SAME SACRIFICE being
> presented by the SAME PERSON for ALL TIME. (Revelation 5:6, Then I saw a
> Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the
> throne,)
>
> It is not a different presentation of the same sacrifice. Christ makes
the
> one presentation for all time...
>
> Don't apply Physics to God...
Correct. To say that Christ is being "re-crucified" is silly. Jesus said
that we should do this in commemoration of Him, just as the Jews had their
Passover meal in anticipation of the redemptive act. Would anyone say that
the Jews crucified Christ every year?
Malachias 1:11.
"For from the rising of the sun, even to the going down, great is my name
among the Gentiles, and in every place there is sacrificing, and there is
offered to my name a clean oblation; because my name is great among the
Gentiles, saith the Lord of Hosts."
BAM