Still nagging mary?
che...@flapper.com
Nobody in the Bible or in the first century church ever did anything
even resembling that! They would have been kicked out of the
Christian church for heresy, praying to someone other than God
Himself!
in Christ Jesus,
Checker
CE
The Hail Mary is one of the most biblical prayers around.
Consider this:
Hail Mary
The "Hail Mary" is a Biblical prayer taken from Luke 1 and John 2:
Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou
amongst women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus. Holy Mary,
Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death.
Amen.
The Hail Mary in various languages
The most intimate and poetic praise to Jesus in the Bible:
In Luke 1:42, when Virgin Mary arrived to Elisabeth's house with
Jesus in Her, Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit and cried out
with a loud voice the most intimate and poetic praise to Jesus in the
Bible: Blessed art thou amongst women and blessed is the fruit of thy
womb Jesus (Lk.1:42):
1- The most intimate, because the dearest praise you can make to a
man is to tell him "blessed is your mother", and Elisabeth , cried out
with a loud voice, your mother is the most blessed among women.
2- And the most poetic, because then she adds, and blessed is
Jesus, the fruit of your womb, and that's poetry!.
In the second part of the Hail Mary, we pray with Mary to Jesus,
and we ask Mary to pray for us sinners in the two most important hours
of our life: "now", and "at the hour of our death".
Hail:
1:28. And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of
grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. (Luke 1,
Douay-Rheims Version)
28The angel went to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly
favored! The Lord is with you." (Luke 1, NIV at Bible Gataway)
"Hail" was the word used exclusively at that time to salute the
Caesar, Hail, Caesar, moritury te salutan (Hail, Caesar, those who are
going to die salute you)... "Hail" could not be used at that time to
salute any other person under penalty of death... and here, the Angel
salutes Mary with nothing less than "Hail!"... so go and kill Angel
Gabriel!
Some bibles use the translation Greetings... nice, but not good
enough.
Mary:
The bibles don't have "Mary" after "Hail", but they have "full of
grace", and "Mary" means "full of grace"... so, in the Hail Mary we
actually say Mary twice, for clarity and devotion.
Full of grace:
1:28. And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of
grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. (Luke
128, Douay-Rheims Version)
28The angel went to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly
favored! The Lord is with you." (Luke 1:28, NIV at Bible Gataway)
"Full of grace" in Greek is "Kejaritómene", used twice in the
Gospels, for Jesus and for Mary.
- For Jesus, it has not been changed in any Bible, because it will
not make sense: 14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among
us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came
from the Father, full of grace and truth.... 16From the fullness of
his grace we have all received one blessing after another. 17For the
law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus
Christ. (John 1).
- For Mary, some bibles translate "Keratomene" as "you who are
highly favored!" which is nice again, but not good enough.
And, of course all the Grace of Mary came from His Son, because
>From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after
another. (Jn.1:16)
The Lord is with you:
Mary was always with her Son. All she did on earth was with her
Son, to her Son, for her Son, in her Son... we should be like our
mother, most children look like their mothers, and do everything for
Jesus, in Jesus, with Jesus and to Jesus, because Jesus every men and
and women we find in our way, everything we do unto others we do it
unto Jesus in person, 40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth,
whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you
did to me.' (Matt.25:40).
And, of course, right now the Lord is with Mary, in Heaven... the
Queen of Heaven! proclaimed by millions of good Christians through
ages, with the power of a Queen and the goodness of Mother, queen and
mother of mercy. Mary, the Queen
Blessed art you amongst women and blessed is the fruit of your womb
Jesus:
1:42. And she cried out with a loud voice and said: Blessed art
thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. (Luke 1:42,
Douay-Rheims Version).
42In a loud voice she exclaimed: "Blessed are you among women, and
blessed is the child you will bear! (Luke 1:42, NIV at Bible Gateway).
We already commented that this is the most intimate and poetic
praise to Jesus in the Bible:
1- The most intimate, because the dearest praise you can make to a
man is to tell him "blessed is your mother", and Elisabeth cried out
with a loud voice, your mother is the most blessed among women.
2- And the most poetic, because then she adds, and blessed is
Jesus, the fruit of your womb, and that's poetry!.
The translation blessed is the child you will bear! is nice,
blessed is Jesus, the Child you will bear, but I guess not as poetic
as blessed is the fruit of thy womb.
The Bible makes a prophecy about Virgin Mary, From now on all
generations will call me blessed (Luke 1:48, NIV at Bible Gateway)...
every time we pray the Hail Mary we fulfill this prophecy of the
Bible, millions of times every day all over the world... do you
fulfill it?... if only you or your church existed in the world, would
this prophecy would be fulfilled now?
Prophecy of the Bible about Mary
Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of
our death:
In the second part of the Hail Mary, we pray with Mary to Jesus,
and we ask Mary to pray for us sinners in the two most important hours
of our life: "now", and "at the hour of our death".
Holy Mary:
Holy, as proclaimed in Matthew 1 and Luke 1... "mother" and
"virgin", as the extraordinary event prophesied in Isaiah 7:14 and
fulfilled in Matthew 1:22-23... in Fact Mary is the only person called
"virgin" in the Bible, and four times (Is.7:14, Mat.1:23, Lk.1:28
twice).
Mother of God:
Mary is the carnal Mother of Jesus who is God, Mother of God. It
id the first Dogma of the five of Mary. The Five Dogmas on Mary
Pray for us sinners:
You can and should pray for me and I can and should pray for you
(Sant.5:16). Those glorify in Heaven can also intercede for us, and
they actually do:
3Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the
altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all the
saints, on the golden altar before the throne. 4The smoke of the
incense, together with the prayers of the saints, went up before God
from the angel's hand. 5Then the angel took the censer, filled it with
fire from the altar, and hurled it on the earth; (Rev.8:3-4).
At Cana in John 2, if only Jesus would have been in that
feast, they would have had no wine. Jesus didn't care, His time of
making miracles had not yet come! (Jn.2:4). But there was Mary too.
And because she asked Him, Jesus made the miracle, though his time had
not yet come... Jesus even changed the plan of God, because the
intercession of his Mother!. It is a place in the Bible where the plan
of God was changed (Jn.2:3-8).
In the wedding feast of our life we should do like the people of
Cana: Invite also the mother of Jesus. Just pray three Hail Marys at
night, and you will see wonders in your life. I have seen them in
mine. Do you have a problem of sickness or housing or job or money?...
Try Mary!... You are not a Christian, and have problems with your wife
or children?... Try Mary, pray 3 Hail Marys!... you don't have to renounce
to anything or to believe anything... it costs you nothing, so try Her!...
I assure you, in the name of Jesus, you will see wonders in your life.
But a warning: The ship of Mary leads only to the shores of the Church
of her son Jesus. Life on Earth
Now and at the hour of our death:
Yes, we ask Mary to pray for us sinners in the two most important
hours of our life: "now", and "at the hour of our death"...
- "Now", in our daily problems of life, for the family, friends,
sickness, job, failures, immigration, addictions, the problems of my
body and spirit and soul...
- And at the hour of our death: To have a peaceful death, and a
glorious one, to go for ever into eternal Heaven.
BAM
"CE" <jlri...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1176077457....@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
On Apr 8, 8:26 pm, chec...@flapper.com wrote:
> Still praying to mary 51 times a day or more?
>
> Nobody in the Bible or in the first century church ever did anything
> even resembling that! They would have been kicked out of the
> Christian church for heresy, praying to someone other than God
> Himself!
>
> in Christ Jesus,
> Checker
My husband's father abandoned Dennis, his little sister, and his mother when
Dennis was just 3. Without going into details in a public forum, it turned
out he was already married to another woman and had another family and had
abandoned them when Dennis' mother met him. Since he presented himself as a
bachelor, she married him in good faith, having no idea of his true state.
When she found out that he was married to her and someone else, she divorced
him. No one in our family has ever tried to contact his side of the family
and they have never contacted us.
duke
As checker continues to demonstrate his ignorance of prayer and Christianity.
duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
che...@flapper.com
>On Apr 8, 8:26 pm, chec...@flapper.com wrote:
>> Still praying to mary 51 times a day or more?
>>
>> Nobody in the Bible or in the first century church ever did anything
>> even resembling that! They would have been kicked out of the
>> Christian church for heresy, praying to someone other than God
>> Himself!
>>
>> in Christ Jesus,
>> Checker
>
>The Hail Mary is one of the most biblical prayers around.
>
>Consider this:
>
>Hail Mary
>
>
>
> The "Hail Mary" is a Biblical prayer taken from Luke 1 and John 2:
>
> Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou
>amongst women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus. Holy Mary,
>Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death.
>Amen.
>
>The Hail Mary in various languages
>
I <snipped> the junk about the heil mary below>
Sorry, but taking a phrase from one passage, sticking it onto a
different passage that has nothing to do with what was being said in
the first, and making a hodge-podge of disconnected phrases and words,
then praying them to a woman who died centuries ago over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
and over and over and over again does NOT make it "biblical." It
makes it FRAUDULANT and HERETICAL.
FRAUDULANT since mary was NEVER treated as anything more than any
other Christian after Jesus' birth. She was never crowned or put into
fancy robes, or called "mother of god" in the first century BY ANY
CHRISTIANS ANYWHERE.
NO PRAYERS were ever repeated 51+ times per hour as the "heil mary) is
in Christ's church. Jesus repeated Himself what, 3 times? That is a
LONG way from 51 times! What would YOU do if your child nagged you 51
times to go to his friend's house for the night? LOL!
HERESY because praying to people who have died is NOT PRAYING TO GOD
and ONLY GOD IS WORTHY OF PRAYER, which is an act of worship.
Matt 4:10
10 Then Jesus said to him , "Away with you, Satan! For it is written,
'You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve .'"
NKJV
So the practice IS NOT Biblical is IS heresy.
Prove me wrong if you think you can. SHOW CITATIONS from the Bible or
the first century Christians, , not mere opinion or assumptions.
Betcha can't.
in Christ Jesus,
Checker
Liam Too
> Prove me wrong if you think you can. SHOW CITATIONS
> from the Bible or the first century Christians, , not mere
> opinion or assumptions. Betcha can't.
CE provided you some citations which you conveniently snipped. Why are
you so bogged down in the 1st century anyway when you cannot even
provide a name, anybody from the Jehovah's Witnesses or the Baptists
before the 1600s?
CE
<snip>
>
> FRAUDULANT since mary was NEVER treated as anything more than any
> other Christian after Jesus' birth. She was never crowned or put into
> fancy robes, or called "mother of god" in the first century BY ANY
> CHRISTIANS ANYWHERE.
Christians have recognized Jesus is God. Mary is His Mother.
Therefore, Mary is the mother of God. But, more than that, Mary is
also our mother, according to words spoken by Jesus Himself on the
cross when He said to His disciple: "Behold, your mother."
As explained on the Catholic Answers site: Although Mary is the Mother
of God, she is not his mother in the sense that she is older than God
or the source of her Son's divinity, for she is neither. Rather, we
say that she is the Mother of God in the sense that she carried in her
womb a divine person-Jesus Christ, God "in the flesh" (2 John 7, cf.
John 1:14)-and in the sense that she contributed the genetic matter to
the human form God took in Jesus Christ.
Since it's impossible to prove a negative, I don't know how you assert
so forcefully that Mary was never called the Mother of God by any
Christians in the first century. I can tell you that a quick search on
the internet turned up a reference as far back "For Luke, in the
inspired Gospel narratives, delivers a testimony not to Joseph only,
but also to Mary, the Mother of God, and gives this account with
reference to the very family and house of David"
> NO PRAYERS were ever repeated 51+ times per hour as the "heil mary) is
> in Christ's church. Jesus repeated Himself what, 3 times?
What is the difference between 51 times and three times or 3,462
times? Does the Bible state somewhere that a prayer cannot be stated
more than a certain number of times? If so, I've missed it. The Bible
only states we are not to engage in "vain repetitions." No prayer is a
vain repetition on the person praying is approaching it in the proper
way. To conclude anything else is nonsense. A strict prohibition on
repeating prayers means no one could ever say, for example, the Lord's
Prayer more than once.
> HERESY because praying to people who have died is NOT PRAYING TO GOD
> and ONLY GOD IS WORTHY OF PRAYER, which is an act of worship.
When Catholics pray to the saints, we are only asking the saints to
intercede for us. The Hail Mary, which you seem to find so
objectionable, only asks Mary to pray for us, now and at the hour of
our death. We do not worship Mary as God since she is only a human
being.
Praying for one another is something Jesus Himself asked us to do. And
it's clear the saints in heaven are aware of and participate in our
prayers. As the Catholic Answers site explains: "As Scripture
indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth.
This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts
the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of
'golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.'
But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they
must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and
present them to God by interceding for us."
There are many verses from Scripture which support what I have been
saying, but this will do for a start.
Liam Too
> from the Bible or the first century Christians, , not mere
> opinion or assumptions. Betcha can't.
How about proving that you are NOT a protestant checker?
Martin Luther believed that the Theotokos remained a Virgin always:
"Christ . . . was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no
children besides Him . . . 'brothers' reallymeans 'cousins' here, for
Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers." (Sermons on
John, chapters 1-4, 1537-39).
Luther also called Mary the "Mother of God": "God says . . .'Mary's
Son is My only Son.' Thus Mary is the Mother of God. (ibid.)
"Our prayer should include the Mother of God . . . What the Hail Mary
says is that all glory should be given to God, using thesewords: 'Hail
Mary, full of Grace, The Lord is with Thee, Blessed artThou among
women and blessed is the Fruit of Thy Womb, Jesus Christ.Amen!" You
see that these words are not concerned with prayer butpurely with
giving praise and honour. We can use the Hail Mary as ameditation in
which we recite what grace God has given her. Second,we should add a
wish that everyone may know and respect her . . .(Personal Prayer
Book, 1522).
Ulrich Zwingli said:
"It was given to her what belongs to no creature, that in the flesh
she should bring forth the Son of God." --In Evang. Luc., Opera
Completa [Zurich, 1828-42], Volume 6, I, 639
"I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a
pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and
after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin." Zwingli used
Exodus 4:22 to defend the doctrine of Mary's perpetual virginity. --
Zwingli Opera, Corpus Reformatorum, Volume 1, 424.
"I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate
Virgin Mary." --E. Stakemeier, De Mariologia et Oecumenismo, K. Balic,
ed., (Rome, 1962), 456.
"Christ ... was born of a most undefiled Virgin." --E. Stakemeier, De
Mariologia et Oecumenismo, K. Balic, ed., (Rome, 1962), 456.
duke
>Sorry, but taking a phrase from one passage, sticking it onto a
>different passage that has nothing to do with what was being said in
>the first, and making a hodge-podge of disconnected phrases and words,
>then praying them to a woman who died centuries ago over and over and
>over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
>and over and over and over again does NOT make it "biblical." It
>makes it FRAUDULANT and HERETICAL.
Why not, checker? Aren't they true. Well, how would you know?
>NO PRAYERS were ever repeated 51+ times per hour as the "heil mary) is
>in Christ's church. Jesus repeated Himself what, 3 times? That is a
>LONG way from 51 times! What would YOU do if your child nagged you 51
>times to go to his friend's house for the night? LOL!
Nobody expects you to under scripture, checker.
1 Thessalonians 5:16-18 (New International Version)
16Be joyful always; 17pray continually; 18give thanks in all circumstances, for
this is God's will for you in Christ Jesus.
>
>HERESY because praying to people who have died is NOT PRAYING TO GOD
>and ONLY GOD IS WORTHY OF PRAYER, which is an act of worship.
According to The International Checker Dictionary.
>Matt 4:10
>10 Then Jesus said to him , "Away with you, Satan! For it is written,
>'You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve .'"
>NKJV
>So the practice IS NOT Biblical is IS heresy.
Your problem is that you have no idea that "praying to Mary" is asking Mary to
pray alongside us to God.
>Prove me wrong if you think you can. SHOW CITATIONS from the Bible or
>the first century Christians, , not mere opinion or assumptions.
>Betcha can't.
Got you covered, check.
duke
Checker, a repulsed x-Catholic, refuses all truth.
duke
>> FRAUDULANT since mary was NEVER treated as anything more than any
>> other Christian after Jesus' birth. She was never crowned or put into
>> fancy robes, or called "mother of god" in the first century BY ANY
>> CHRISTIANS ANYWHERE.
>Christians have recognized Jesus is God. Mary is His Mother.
>Therefore, Mary is the mother of God. But, more than that, Mary is
>also our mother, according to words spoken by Jesus Himself on the
>cross when He said to His disciple: "Behold, your mother."
Now you're really going to blow his mind.
Paul Duca
duckg...@cox.net wrote on 4/9/07 6:09 AM:
> On Sun, 08 Apr 2007 17:26:05 -0600, che...@flapper.com wrote:
>
>> Still praying to mary 51 times a day or more?
>>
>> Nobody in the Bible or in the first century church ever did anything
>> even resembling that! They would have been kicked out of the
>> Christian church for heresy, praying to someone other than God
>> Himself!
>>
>> in Christ Jesus,
>> Checker
>
> As checker continues to demonstrate his ignorance of prayer and Christianity.
>
Two things that have done NOTHING for Duke...
Paul
Paul Duca
mcca...@blahblahbellsouth.net wrote on 4/8/07 10:58 PM:
>
> "CE" <jlri...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1176077457....@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
> On Apr 8, 8:26 pm, chec...@flapper.com wrote:
>> Still praying to mary 51 times a day or more?
>>
>> Nobody in the Bible or in the first century church ever did anything
>> even resembling that! They would have been kicked out of the
>> Christian church for heresy, praying to someone other than God
>> Himself!
>>
>> in Christ Jesus,
>> Checker
>
> My husband's father
Good Catholic Bam man is married to another man?!?
duke
>> As checker continues to demonstrate his ignorance of prayer and Christianity.
> Two things that have done NOTHING for Duke...
You're the one that turns your back on these things, depends snifferboy. Both
have been wonderful for me.
che...@flapper.com
>On Apr 9, 10:17 am, chec...@flapper.com wrote:
>> Prove me wrong if you think you can. SHOW CITATIONS
>> from the Bible or the first century Christians, , not mere
>> opinion or assumptions. Betcha can't.
>
>How about proving that you are NOT a protestant checker?
>
<snipped the Luther and Zwingli quotes; they are not relevant>
How about YOU proving you aren't a jw?
It is a logical fallacy to try to prove something from absence.
I am merely a Christian. Until you can prove that my beliefs are not
the same as the first century Church taught, you have no case.
in the Name of Jesus,
Checker
che...@flapper.com
>On Apr 9, 12:17 pm, chec...@flapper.com wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>>
>> FRAUDULANT since mary was NEVER treated as anything more than any
>> other Christian after Jesus' birth. She was never crowned or put into
>> fancy robes, or called "mother of god" in the first century BY ANY
>> CHRISTIANS ANYWHERE.
>
>Christians have recognized Jesus is God. Mary is His Mother.
>Therefore, Mary is the mother of God. But, more than that, Mary is
>also our mother, according to words spoken by Jesus Himself on the
>cross when He said to His disciple: "Behold, your mother."
LOL! Let's see now. Joseph was the "father" of Jesus, so Joseph is
the "father" of God? And YOUR daddy too?
No, your attempted logic doesn't follow.
Jesus "mothered" the physical body of Jesus. According to the Bible
(John 1:1-3, 14, etc etc) Jesus as God existed LONG before mary was
born, and mary didn't "mother" that. Mary also did not "mother" God
the Father, or God the Holy Ghost.
Mary was only a nice little girl who gave birth to the physical body
of Jesus.
>
>As explained on the Catholic Answers site: Although Mary is the Mother
>of God, she is not his mother in the sense that she is older than God
>or the source of her Son's divinity, for she is neither. Rather, we
>say that she is the Mother of God in the sense that she carried in her
>womb a divine person-Jesus Christ, God "in the flesh" (2 John 7, cf.
>John 1:14)-and in the sense that she contributed the genetic matter to
>the human form God took in Jesus Christ.
Oh yes, the catholics have rationalized a LOT of dung about mary,
pretending she is something she is not. So what? Just because they
rationalize does not make it true.
>
>Since it's impossible to prove a negative, I don't know how you assert
>so forcefully that Mary was never called the Mother of God by any
>Christians in the first century. I can tell you that a quick search on
>the internet turned up a reference as far back "For Luke, in the
>inspired Gospel narratives, delivers a testimony not to Joseph only,
>but also to Mary, the Mother of God, and gives this account with
>reference to the very family and house of David"
You cannot find ONE SINGLE WRITING ANYWHERE in which mary is called
"mother of god," or in which she is prayed to, or in which ANYONE
other than God is prayed to.
>
>
>> NO PRAYERS were ever repeated 51+ times per hour as the "heil mary) is
>> in Christ's church. Jesus repeated Himself what, 3 times?
>
>What is the difference between 51 times and three times or 3,462
>times? Does the Bible state somewhere that a prayer cannot be stated
>more than a certain number of times? If so, I've missed it.
You are arguing from absence again. You would consider your own child
begging you to do something 51+ times per hour to be vain repetitions,
but do not consider your 51+ times per to mary to be the same? A
double standard.
>The Bible
>only states we are not to engage in "vain repetitions." No prayer is a
>vain repetition on the person praying is approaching it in the proper
>way. To conclude anything else is nonsense. A strict prohibition on
>repeating prayers means no one could ever say, for example, the Lord's
>Prayer more than once.
>
>> HERESY because praying to people who have died is NOT PRAYING TO GOD
>> and ONLY GOD IS WORTHY OF PRAYER, which is an act of worship.
>
>When Catholics pray to the saints, we are only asking the saints to
>intercede for us.
You pray to her, a person who has died. You kneel down and finger
your beads and pray to her over and over and over and over and over
and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over again!
(Did you READ all of those "overs??" You don't consider THAT "vain
repetition?)
>The Hail Mary, which you seem to find so
>objectionable, only asks Mary to pray for us, now and at the hour of
>our death. We do not worship Mary as God since she is only a human
>being.
My prayers to God Himself frequently ask Him for things too.
Sometimes they are just to praise Him, and most of what I ask Him for
are for other people than myself, but it is the same kind of
"communication" that you are talking about you supposedly having with
mary.
I say supposedly since there is no evidence in the first centuries of
Christ's church or in ANY scripture that she can even hear you. . the
whole practice is one made up by sinful men.
>
>Praying for one another is something Jesus Himself asked us to do.
LIVE people praying for OTHER LIVE HERE ON EARTH PEOPLE. Not praying
to people who have DIED.
>And
>it's clear the saints in heaven are aware of and participate in our
>prayers. As the Catholic Answers site explains: "As Scripture
>indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth.
>This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts
>the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of
>'golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.'
Rev 5:8-9
8 And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the
twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and
they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers
of the saints. 9 And they sang a new song:
NIV
Does it indicate that they know the CONTENT of any prayers from earth?
No. Does it indicate that the prayers are from saints on EARTH? No.
Try again. This does not show any "communication" between Christians
in heaven (ALL Christians are "saints" according to the Bible, not
just the popular ones) at all! Bowls of incense REPRESENTING the
prayers of the saints, btw.
>But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they
>must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and
>present them to God by interceding for us."
More rationalizations to try to cover the fact that it was NEVER DONE
IN THE CHURCH JESUS FOUNDED.
>
>There are many verses from Scripture which support what I have been
>saying, but this will do for a start.
So far you haven't shown any that actually support the rosary
anywhere.
Nice try though.
in Christ Jesus,
Checker
che...@flapper.com
No, he really didn't. As I pointed out, snipping a phrase here, a few
words there, a half-sentence somewhere else from scripture DOES NOT
MAKE SOMETHING FABRICATED FROM THOSE SNIPS "BIBLICAL."
Matt 27:5
(Judas ) went and hanged himself.
NKJV
Luke 10:37
"Go and do likewise ."
NKJV
Matt 28:7
go quickly
NKJV
So should I try to tell you that you should go out like Judas and hang
yourself, do it quickly? Should I say that is "Biblical?"
THAT is the kind of "snippets" that the rcc claims makes the rosary
"Biblical."
Without the "revised history" of the rcc you cannot name one first
century roman catholic or orthodox either.
I can however name plenty of first-century CHRISTIANS who believed and
practiced as we Baptists, Lutherans, Assemblies, and other Christians
do today. Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, James, Timothy, Paul, etc
etc etc.
The things THEY believed and practiced and WE believe and practice are
THERE, in the first century church.
Your mariology, priests in a box, rosaries, praying to people who have
died were all INVENTED LATER. You cannot find them ANYWHERE in the
first century Church.
in Christ Jesus,
Checker
Liam Too
> Without the "revised history" of the rcc you cannot name one first
> century roman catholic or orthodox either.
Clement, Ignatius, Polycarp, Tertullian.
> I can however name plenty of first-century CHRISTIANS
> who believed and practiced as we Baptists, Lutherans,
> Assemblies, and other Christians do today. Matthew,
> Mark, Luke, John, Peter, James, Timothy, Paul, etc
> etc etc.
LOL! You did not mention any other names, what are they after the ones
that you named?
> The things THEY believed and practiced and WE believe
> and practice are THERE, in the first century church.
This is basic Christian belief.
Again, can you name any Baptist or Jehovah's Witnesses other than
Mark, Luke, John, Peter, James, Timothy, Paul before the 1600s?
Liam Too
> <snipped the Luther and Zwingli quotes; they are not relevant>
LOL!
Christian History 101: Luther and Zwingli were the first architects of
the "Protestant Reformation."
Read and learn checker!
che...@flapper.com
wrote:
>in article QYhSh.1764$qB4...@bignews3.bellsouth.net, BAM at
He obviously got this (almost word for word) from something my wife
posted on a genealogy board some time ago; it is open for all to see.
I have no half-brother, and no sister-in-law, and yes we have had some
(tho limited) contact with "the other side of the family."
This is just his way of trying to shut me up from pointing out the
corruptions and heresies of the rcc, obviously.
No big deal.
in Christ Jesus,
Checker
Liam Too
> Checker, a repulsed x-Catholic, refuses all truth.
It seems that way. He might be an atheist now too.
che...@flapper.com
wrote:
>On Apr 10, 10:03 am, chec...@flapper.com wrote:
>> Without the "revised history" of the rcc you cannot name one first
>> century roman catholic or orthodox either.
>
>Clement, Ignatius, Polycarp, Tertullian.
>
>> I can however name plenty of first-century CHRISTIANS
>> who believed and practiced as we Baptists, Lutherans,
>> Assemblies, and other Christians do today. Matthew,
>> Mark, Luke, John, Peter, James, Timothy, Paul, etc
>> etc etc.
>
>LOL! You did not mention any other names, what are they after the ones
>that you named?
Who cares? God knows. You don't know the names of all of the
Christians. LOL!
>
>> The things THEY believed and practiced and WE believe
>> and practice are THERE, in the first century church.
>
>This is basic Christian belief.
>
>Again, can you name any Baptist or Jehovah's Witnesses other than
>Mark, Luke, John, Peter, James, Timothy, Paul before the 1600s?
>
Why would I want to name any jws? That would blike naming catholics
or orthodox.
God never told us to keep meaningless genealogies; HE keeps track, we
don't need to!
LOL!
Yep, this thing we CHRISTIANS believe (whether we are labled Baptist,
Assemblise, Presbyterians or whatever) IS basic Christian belief
indeed.
che...@flapper.com
wrote:
>On Apr 9, 4:48 pm, duke <duckgumb...@cox.net> wrote:
>> Checker, a repulsed x-Catholic, refuses all truth.
>
>It seems that way. He might be an atheist now too.
Naah, your cheap shots don't make me any less CHRISTIAN. I am indeed
an ex-catholic (over 40 years ago), and I AM indeed repulsed by the
false teachings of the rcc.
A Christian SHOULD BE repulsed by those.
in Christ Jesus,
Checker
che...@flapper.com
wrote:
>On Apr 10, 9:35 am, chec...@flapper.com wrote:
Too bad, but the "protestant reformation" of the rcc cult was NOT the
beginning of Christianity, nor was the rcc EVER the "mother church."
She was instead, a harlot, trading what was good for what was evil,
Truth for manmade heresies.
in Christ Jesus,
Checker
che...@flapper.com
wrote:
>On Apr 10, 10:03 am, chec...@flapper.com wrote:
I notice you are avoiding the issue of nagging mary.
checker
CE
> On 10 Apr 2007 08:28:39 -0700, "Liam Too" <liamtoo...@yahoo.com>
Curious. Which church do you think handed down the Bible to you? Which
church do you think preserved the teachings of Christianity during all
those centuries until the rise of the non-Catholic Christian
denominations?
Liam Too
> On 10 Apr 2007 08:28:39 -0700, "Liam Too" <liamtoo...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> >On Apr 10, 9:35 am, chec...@flapper.com wrote:
> >> <snipped the Luther and Zwingli quotes; they are not relevant>
>
> >LOL!
>
> >Christian History 101: Luther and Zwingli were the first architects of
> >the "Protestant Reformation."
>
> >Read and learn checker!
>
> Too bad, but the "protestant reformation" of the rcc cult was NOT the
> beginning of Christianity, nor was the rcc EVER the "mother church."
>
> She was instead, a harlot, trading what was good for what was evil,
> Truth for manmade heresies.
LOL! Instead of discussing with civility, you resort to the above. I
pity you.
Liam Too
> Who cares? God knows. You don't know the names of all of the
> Christians. LOL!
I named a few, can you name one of yours before the 1600s, just one?
Liam Too
> I notice you are avoiding the issue of nagging mary.
We have answered all of your questions regarding the Blessed Virgin
Mary and still you continue to disrespect her. Shame on you!
duke
>>> Checker, a repulsed x-Catholic, refuses all truth.
>>It seems that way. He might be an atheist now too.
>Naah, your cheap shots don't make me any less CHRISTIAN. I am indeed
>an ex-catholic (over 40 years ago), and I AM indeed repulsed by the
>false teachings of the rcc.
No, you are repulsed by Christian teachings.
duke
>I notice you are avoiding the issue of nagging mary.
>checker
She's alive dnd well, body and soul, with her son Jesus. She spends all time
praying to her son and will pray alongside us to her son also.
che...@flapper.com
wrote:
>On Apr 10, 1:56 pm, chec...@flapper.com wrote:
I already did. Matthew, Mark, Luke, john, Paul, etc etc.
And WHICH did YOU name? Zwingli and Luther? LOL!
che...@flapper.com
wrote:
>On Apr 10, 2:00 pm, chec...@flapper.com wrote:
You haven't "explained" how nagging her 51+ times per hour is
respectful, or is something YOU would want done to YOU!
You have not "explained" how taking partial phrases, snippets of
verses, and a few words here and a few words there makes your doctrine
become "Biblical."
I however demonstrated that BY YOUR OWN METHOD, you are to
go hang yourself
do so quickly
and not to wait
ACCORDING TO YOUR OWN METHODS OF "USING" THE BIBLE!
You can't answer for these things, so you ignore them hoping they will
go away, obviously.
in Christ Jesus,
Checker
che...@flapper.com
You ASSUME that "church" means social/religious/political/financial
oligarchy, which it does not. "church" merely means "congregation, a
group of people called together for a purpose." Jesus further defined
it as the meeting of two or three (or more) people in His Name.
Which "religious organization?" Which "handed the Bible down?"
The rcc has NEVER been the "origins of the texts" ever. The texts
were written by men led of God, NOT the rcc. The various canons were
chosen by Christians in various places, not by the rcc. Not by the
orthodox that "schismed" from the rcc much later either.
Denominations (not even the rcc, the orthodox, or the waldeneses)
"preserved" the teachings of Christianity. They have been preserved
by CHRISTIANS, and by THE TEXT OF THE BIBLE, not the manmade heretical
practices of the rcc or orthodox. THOSE practices were INVENTED
LATER, and were not part of Christ's church at all!
in Christ Jesus,
duke
>>On Apr 10, 1:56 pm, chec...@flapper.com wrote:
>>> Who cares? God knows. You don't know the names of all of the
>>> Christians. LOL!
>>I named a few, can you name one of yours before the 1600s, just one?
>I already did. Matthew, Mark, Luke, john, Paul, etc etc.
Those are Catholic. Your guys didn't come along until 1600.
che...@flapper.com
wrote:
>On Apr 10, 1:59 pm, chec...@flapper.com wrote:
"Read and learn checker!???" Hmm, my statement is true (and is
described in Revelation, btw). Nothing "uncivil" about it.
Sorry if it disturbs you. It is how the rcc and orthodox are looked
upon by much of Christianity.
duke
>>We have answered all of your questions regarding the Blessed Virgin
>>Mary and still you continue to disrespect her. Shame on you!
>You haven't "explained" how nagging her 51+ times per hour is
>respectful, or is something YOU would want done to YOU!
It would be nagging you, but you are not holy.
>You have not "explained" how taking partial phrases, snippets of
>verses, and a few words here and a few words there makes your doctrine
>become "Biblical."
Of course they are. They're all true statements.
>ACCORDING TO YOUR OWN METHODS OF "USING" THE BIBLE!
>You can't answer for these things, so you ignore them hoping they will
>go away, obviously.
Your problem is that you think they are protest_ant.
Paul Duca
duckg...@cox.net wrote on 4/10/07 5:14 PM:
> On Tue, 10 Apr 2007 13:00:41 -0600, che...@flapper.com wrote:
>
>> I notice you are avoiding the issue of nagging mary.
>> checker
>
> She's alive dnd well, body and soul, with her son Jesus. She spends all time
> praying to her son and will pray alongside us to her son also.
>
>
Just like MY mother...good for nothing but useless prayers.
Paul
duke
>> She's alive dnd well, body and soul, with her son Jesus. She spends all time
>> praying to her son and will pray alongside us to her son also.
> Just like MY mother...good for nothing but useless prayers.
O kkkkkkkkkk.
If you hate your right hand, cut it off.
Paul Duca
duckg...@cox.net wrote on 4/13/07 9:11 AM:
> On Thu, 12 Apr 2007 16:48:37 -0400, Paul Duca <p.d...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>> She's alive dnd well, body and soul, with her son Jesus. She spends all
>>> time
>>> praying to her son and will pray alongside us to her son also.
>
>> Just like MY mother...good for nothing but useless prayers.
>
> O kkkkkkkkkk.
>
> If you hate your right hand, cut it off.
>
Duke can't remove it from his penis long enough...
Paul
duke
>> If you hate your right hand, cut it off.
> Duke can't remove it from his penis long enough...
Are you a peeping tom also, depends snifferboy?
Paul Duca
duckg...@cox.net wrote on 4/14/07 9:22 AM:
> On Fri, 13 Apr 2007 23:29:24 -0400, Paul Duca <p.d...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>> If you hate your right hand, cut it off.
>
>> Duke can't remove it from his penis long enough...
>
> Are you a peeping tom also?
>
So you admit you masturbate...something "good" Catholics aren't
supposed to do?
Paul
duke
>>>> If you hate your right hand, cut it off.
>>> Duke can't remove it from his penis long enough...
>> Are you a peeping tom also?
> So you admit you masturbate...something "good" Catholics aren't
>supposed to do?
What did you see me do, peeping tom?
Paul Duca
duckg...@cox.net wrote on 4/15/07 9:27 AM:
> On Sat, 14 Apr 2007 17:44:31 -0400, Paul Duca <p.d...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>>>> If you hate your right hand, cut it off.
>>>> Duke can't remove it from his penis long enough...
>>> Are you a peeping tom also?
>
>> So you admit you masturbate...something "good" Catholics aren't
>> supposed to do?
>
> What did you see me do, peeping tom?
>
If you don't, why do get upset about the idea that someone "saw"
you?
Paul
CE
> I however demonstrated that BY YOUR OWN METHOD, you are to
> go hang yourself
> do so quickly
> and not to wait
You first.
CE
> >On Apr 10, 2:00 pm, chec...@flapper.com wrote:
> >> I notice you are avoiding the issue of nagging mary.
>
> You haven't "explained" how nagging her 51+ times per hour is
> respectful, or is something YOU would want done to YOU!
Here's an explanation as to why it's okay to repeat a prayer as many
times as we want and why it's not "nagging" Mary to do so. This is
taken from the Catholic Answers site. If you have any further
questions after reading this, just let me know.
Vain Repetition?
In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus said:
And in praying do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do; for
they think that they will be heard for their many words. Do not be
like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him
(Matt. 6:7-8).
With Hail Mary after Hail Mary after Hail Mary, the rosary appears to
some people to be the kind of repetitious prayer Jesus condemned-a
superficial, mechanical way of praying to God that can be boring and
empty of life. It is sometimes said to be "vain repetition" rather
than true, intimate prayer flowing from the heart. Shouldn't
Christians, some ask, speak openly to Jesus rather than relying on a
repetitious formula?
Jesus, though, was not condemning repetitive prayer. Rather, he was
criticizing the Gentiles' practice of reciting endless formulations
and divine names in order to say the words that would force the gods
to answer their petitions. Magical formulas were not the way to get
God to answer prayers. Jesus challenged us to approach our heavenly
Father not the way the pagans do their deities but rather in confident
trust that "your Father knows what you need before you ask him."
Indeed, he knows what we need better than we do and is providing for
those needs even before we realize them ourselves (Matt. 6:25-34).
Moreover, in the very next verse, Jesus gives us a new prayer to
recite: the Our Father. Jesus says, "Pray then like this: Our Father
who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name" (Matt. 6:9).
Holy, Holy, Holy
If it were wrong to use repetitive prayers, Jesus certainly would not
have done it. Yet in the garden of Gethsemane, he spoke the same
prayer three times: "Leaving them again, he went away and prayed for
the third time, saying the same words" (Matt. 26:44). We cannot think
of this repetition as anything but heartfelt.
Similarly, in the Old Testament, parts of Psalm 118 are structured
around the repeated phrase "His steadfast love endures forever," and
the book of Daniel presents the three men in the fiery furnace
constantly repeating the phrase "Sing praise to him and highly exalt
him forever" (Dan. 3:52-88). God looks favorably on their prayers and
answers them in their time of need (Ps. 118:21; Dan. 3:94-95).
In the New Testament, the book of Revelation describes how the very
worship of God in heaven includes words of holy praise that are
repeated without end. The four living creatures, gathered around God's
throne, "never cease to sing, 'Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord God
Almighty, who was and is and is to come!'"(Rev. 4:8). Although trying
to manipulate God by vain repetition is always wrong, proper
repetitious prayer is very biblical and pleasing to God.
We may still wonder why there is so much repetition in the rosary.
John Paul II noted that it is similar to the "Jesus Prayer" that
people have recited for centuries: Christians slowly repeat the words
"Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on us," often in rhythm with
their breathing. Whispered over and over again, this prayer calms the
mind so that we may be more disposed to meet God himself in prayer. It
helps us follow the admonition of Psalm 46:10: "Be still, and know
that I am God."
The succession of Hail Marys in the rosary achieves the same purpose.
Anyone who prays the rosary knows that the peaceful cadence created by
the repetition of the prayers slows down our minds and spirits and
focuses our attention so that we can prayerfully reflect on different
aspects of Christ's life.
I Just Called to Say I Love You
On another level, John Paul II encouraged us to think of the
repetition of Hail Marys within the context of a relationship of love.
I may tell my wife "I love you" several times a day. Sometimes I say
these words to her as I am going out the door for work in the morning.
Other times I whisper them just before we fall asleep at night. On
special occasions I may write these words in a card. When we are out
to dinner, I may look her in the eyes as I say, "I love you." Although
she has heard me repeat these same words to her thousands of times,
never once has she complained, "Stop saying the same thing over and
over again!"
In an intimate, personal relationship such as marriage, two people may
repeat to each other certain expressions of love, but each time the
same words express anew the heartfelt affection the people have for
one another. Indeed, repetition is part of the language of love.
We have an intimate, personal relationship with Jesus Christ. By
reciting the Hail Mary throughout the rosary, we participate over and
over again in the wonder-filled response of Gabriel and Elizabeth to
the mystery of Christ. Bead after bead, we ask Mary to pray for us
that we may be drawn closer to her Son. And most of all, prayer after
prayer, we affectionately speak the name of our Beloved at the very
center of each Hail Mary: "Blessed is the fruit of thy womb,
Jesus . . . Jesus . . . Jesus." The holy name of Jesus, repeated with
tender love, is the heartbeat of the entire rosary.
duke
>
>>>>>> If you hate your right hand, cut it off.
>>>>> Duke can't remove it from his penis long enough...
>>>> Are you a peeping tom also?
>>> So you admit you masturbate...something "good" Catholics aren't
>>> supposed to do?
>> What did you see me do, peeping tom?
> If you don't, why do get upset about the idea that someone "saw"
>you?
What did you see me do, pervert?
Paul Duca
duckg...@cox.net wrote on 4/15/07 5:40 PM:
> On Sun, 15 Apr 2007 10:02:18 -0400, Paul Duca <p.d...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>> If you hate your right hand, cut it off.
>>>>>> Duke can't remove it from his penis long enough...
>>>>> Are you a peeping tom also?
>
>>>> So you admit you masturbate...something "good" Catholics aren't
>>>> supposed to do?
>
>>> What did you see me do, peeping tom?
>
>> If you don't, why do get upset about the idea that someone "saw"
>> you?
>
> What did you see me do, pervert?
>
>
Nothing that your priest didn't see when you were eight...
Paul
duke
>> What did you see me do, pervert?
> Nothing that your priest didn't see when you were eight...
You're the peeping tom.
CE
I can't help but notice that Checker has not yet commented on this
answer he claimed he wanted.
CE
>
> - Show quoted text -
Checker,
Have you seen this answer? What do you think?
David
> Still praying to mary 51 times a day or more?
>
Still nagging the Catholics(not Romans) Christian/parakaleo/checker?
> Nobody in the Bible or in the first century church ever did anything
> even resembling that!
They did talk to her Christian/parakaleo/Checker.
> They would have been kicked out of the
> Christian church for heresy,
Unsupported assertion Christian/parakaleo/Checker.
>praying to someone other than God
> Himself!
>
On the contrary Christian/parakaleo/Checker, the Bible teaches to pray
to those in heaven. You just ignore those passages, acting as if they
don't exist, as usual.
> in Christ Jesus,
> Checker
Likewise Checker, who used to be known as parakaleo, and before that
was known as Christian.
che...@flapper.com
wrote:
>On Apr 8, 4:26 pm, chec...@flapper.com wrote:
>> Still praying to mary 51 times a day or more?
>>
>
>Still nagging the Catholics(not Romans) Christian/parakaleo/checker?
>
>> Nobody in the Bible or in the first century church ever did anything
>> even resembling that!
>
>They did talk to her Christian/parakaleo/Checker.
>
>> They would have been kicked out of the
>> Christian church for heresy,
>
>Unsupported assertion Christian/parakaleo/Checker.
>
>>praying to someone other than God
>> Himself!
>>
>
>On the contrary Christian/parakaleo/Checker, the Bible teaches to pray
>to those in heaven. You just ignore those passages, acting as if they
>don't exist, as usual.
Show us anywhere in the Bible where the Bible teaches to pray to
ANYONE in heaven except God Himself!
BETCHA CAN'T.
in Christ Jesus,
Checker (you can call me superduck if you wish...who cares?)
David
> On 16 Apr 2007 17:04:58 -0700, "David" <davecher...@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> >On Apr 8, 4:26 pm, chec...@flapper.com wrote:
> >> Still praying to mary 51 times a day or more?
>
> >Still nagging the Catholics(not Romans) Christian/parakaleo/checker?
>
> >> Nobody in the Bible or in the first century church ever did anything
> >> even resembling that!
>
> >They did talk to her Christian/parakaleo/Checker.
>
> >> They would have been kicked out of the
> >> Christian church for heresy,
>
> >Unsupported assertion Christian/parakaleo/Checker.
>
> >>praying to someone other than God
> >> Himself!
>
> >On the contrary Christian/parakaleo/Checker, the Bible teaches to pray
> >to those in heaven. You just ignore those passages, acting as if they
> >don't exist, as usual.
>
Let the record show that after three times of promising to killfile me
and never respond to me again, twice in his identity as parakaleo,
once in his identity as Checker, Christian/parakaleo/Checker again
responds to me.
Do you ever actually keep your word Christian/parakaleo/Checker? Or
are you too incompetent to maintain a killfile?
> Show us anywhere in the Bible where the Bible teaches to pray to
> ANYONE in heaven
I don't take orders from you Christian/parakaleo/Checker.
Of course, if you read my previous posts to you, back when you were
parakaleo and pretending not to be Christian, I gave you Psalm 103:20.
Bless the LORD, all you angels, mighty in strength and attentive,
obedient to every command.
Remember Christian/parakaleo/Checker?
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic/msg/f68d3ff17fba1b80
> except God Himself!
>
Are you saying angels are not in heaven Christian/parakaleo/Checker?
> BETCHA CAN'T.
>
I already did a year and a half ago Christian/parakaleo/Checker.
> in Christ Jesus,
> Checker
Likewise Checker, who used to be known as parakaleo, and before that
was known as Christian.
> (you can call me superduck if you wish
Heh, everyone, notice how Christian/parakaleo/Checker does not
actually deny he used to call himself parakaleo, or Christian. That is
because he used to go by those identities, until he was so badly
discredited that he pretended to be someone new.
And also notice that he pretends to act as if he did not call himself
these names, acting as if I made up those names. Such laughable
nonsense on the part of Christian/parakaleo/Checker.
>...who cares?)
Indeed, most likely no one will care if you choose to call yourself
superduck next Christian/parakaleo/Checker.
Paul Duca
duckg...@cox.net wrote on 4/16/07 6:18 AM:
> On Sun, 15 Apr 2007 19:36:09 -0400, Paul Duca <p.d...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>> What did you see me do, pervert?
>
>> Nothing that your priest didn't see when you were eight...
>
> You're the peeping tom.
>
>
So you never take a shower or use the toilet, then...so God won't
see your winkie?
Paul
duke
You're getting sick, peeping tom.
che...@flapper.com
wrote:
>On Apr 16, 5:59 pm, chec...@flapper.com wrote:
>> On 16 Apr 2007 17:04:58 -0700, "David" <davecher...@earthlink.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> >On Apr 8, 4:26 pm, chec...@flapper.com wrote:
>> >> Still praying to mary 51 times a day or more?
>>
>> >Still nagging the Catholics(not Romans) Christian/parakaleo/checker?
>>
>> >> Nobody in the Bible or in the first century church ever did anything
>> >> even resembling that!
>>
>> >They did talk to her Christian/parakaleo/Checker.
>>
>> >> They would have been kicked out of the
>> >> Christian church for heresy,
>>
>> >Unsupported assertion Christian/parakaleo/Checker.
>>
>> >>praying to someone other than God
>> >> Himself!
>>
>> >On the contrary Christian/parakaleo/Checker, the Bible teaches to pray
>> >to those in heaven. You just ignore those passages, acting as if they
>> >don't exist, as usual.
>>
>
>Let the record show that after three times of promising to killfile me
>and never respond to me again, twice in his identity as parakaleo,
>once in his identity as Checker, Christian/parakaleo/Checker again
>responds to me.
>
>Do you ever actually keep your word Christian/parakaleo/Checker? Or
>are you too incompetent to maintain a killfile?
New computer. Third new computer in four months, thanks to Windows
VISTA.
Don't worry, you'll get back there soon, no doubt. Yep, I DID
killfile you, at least twice!
>
>> Show us anywhere in the Bible where the Bible teaches to pray to
>> ANYONE in heaven
>
>I don't take orders from you Christian/parakaleo/Checker.
>
>Of course, if you read my previous posts to you, back when you were
>parakaleo and pretending not to be Christian, I gave you Psalm 103:20.
>
>Bless the LORD, all you angels, mighty in strength and attentive,
>obedient to every command.
>
>Remember Christian/parakaleo/Checker?
>
>http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic/msg/f68d3ff17fba1b80
>
>
>> except God Himself!
Ps 103:19-22
19 The Lord has established His throne in heaven,
And His kingdom rules over all.
20 Bless the Lord, you His angels,
Who excel in strength, who do His word,
Heeding the voice of His word.
21 Bless the Lord, all you His hosts,
You ministers of His, who do His pleasure.
22 Bless the Lord, all His works,
In all places of His dominion.
NKJV
Sorry bubba, but it does not say AT ALL to pray to anyone other than
God here.
Sorry, but the text says NOTHING of what you claim, AS USUAL.
So why don't you try finding some text somewhere that says we should
pray to anyone other than GOD HIMSELF.
SHOW US where God GAVE SUCH A COMMAND.
>>
>
>Are you saying angels are not in heaven Christian/parakaleo/Checker?
>
>> BETCHA CAN'T.
>>
>
>I already did a year and a half ago Christian/parakaleo/Checker.
Except that the passage STILL DOES NOT SAY WHAT YOU CLAIM. Not any
more than it did then.
>
>> in Christ Jesus,
>> Checker
>
>Likewise Checker, who used to be known as parakaleo, and before that
>was known as Christian.
>
>> (you can call me superduck if you wish
>
>Heh, everyone, notice how Christian/parakaleo/Checker does not
>actually deny he used to call himself parakaleo, or Christian. That is
>because he used to go by those identities, until he was so badly
>discredited that he pretended to be someone new.
>
>And also notice that he pretends to act as if he did not call himself
>these names, acting as if I made up those names. Such laughable
>nonsense on the part of Christian/parakaleo/Checker.
>
>>...who cares?)
>
>Indeed, most likely no one will care if you choose to call yourself
>superduck next Christian/parakaleo/Checker.
Yep, you have earned your way back to the killfile, david. You are
pathetic.
In the Name of Jesus,
Checker
CE
Here's a little something that explains the practice of praying to
saints.
Praying to the Saints
The historic Christian practice of asking our departed brothers and
sisters in Christ-the saints-for their intercession has come under
attack in the last few hundred years. Though the practice dates to the
earliest days of Christianity and is shared by Catholics, Eastern
Orthodox, the other Eastern Christians, and even some Anglicans-
meaning that all-told it is shared by more than three quarters of the
Christians on earth-it still comes under heavy attack from many within
the Protestant movement that started in the sixteenth century.
Can They Hear Us?
One charge made against it is that the saints in heaven cannot even
hear our prayers, making it useless to ask for their intercession.
However, this is not true. As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are
aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example,
in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering
our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense,
which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are
offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers.
They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding
for us.
Some might try to argue that in this passage the prayers being offered
were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God. Yet
this argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can
hear our prayers, for then the saints would be aware of our prayers
even when they are not directed to them!
In any event, it is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in
heaven do actively intercede for us. We are explicitly told by John
that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints.
Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to
God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God
mentally. In other words, they are interceding.
One Mediator
Another charge commonly levelled against asking the saints for their
intercession is that this violates the sole mediatorship of Christ,
which Paul discusses: "For there is one God, and there is one mediator
between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (1 Tim. 2:5).
But asking one person to pray for you in no way violates Christ's
mediatorship, as can be seen from considering the way in which Christ
is a mediator. First, Christ is a unique mediator between man and God
because he is the only person who is both God and man. He is the only
bridge between the two, the only God-man. But that role as mediator is
not compromised in the least by the fact that others intercede for us.
Furthermore, Christ is a unique mediator between God and man because
he is the Mediator of the New Covenant (Heb. 9:15, 12:24), just as
Moses was the mediator (Greek mesitas) of the Old Covenant (Gal. 3:19-
20).
The intercession of fellow Christians-which is what the saints in
heaven are-also clearly does not interfere with Christ's unique
mediatorship because in the four verses immediately preceding 1
Timothy 2:5, Paul says that Christians should interceed: "First of
all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and
thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high
positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and
respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior,
who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the
truth" (1 Tim. 2:1-4). Clearly, then, intercessory prayers offered by
Christians on behalf of others is something "good and pleasing to
God," not something infringing on Christ's role as mediator.
"No Contact with the dead"
Sometimes Fundamentalists object to asking our fellow Christians in
heaven to pray for us by declaring that God has forbidden contact with
the dead in passages such as Deuteronomy 18:10-11. In fact, he has
not, because he at times has given it-for example, when he had Moses
and Elijah appear with Christ to the disciples on the Mount of
Transfiguration (Matt. 17:3). What God has forbidden is necromantic
practice of conjuring up spirits. "There shall not be found among you
any one who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, any one who
practices divination, a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer, or a
charmer, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer. . . . For these
nations, which you are about to dispossess, give heed to soothsayers
and to diviners; but as for you, the Lord your God has not allowed you
so to do. The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me
from among you, from your brethren-him you shall heed" (Deut. 18:10-
15).
God thus indicates that one is not to conjure the dead for purposes of
gaining information; one is to look to God's prophets instead. Thus
one is not to hold a seance. But anyone with an ounce of common sense
can discern the vast qualitative difference between holding a seance
to have the dead speak through you and a son humbly saying at his
mother's grave, "Mom, please pray to Jesus for me; I'm having a real
problem right now." The difference between the two is the difference
between night and day. One is an occult practice bent on getting
secret information; the other is a humble request for a loved one to
pray to God on one's behalf.
Overlooking the Obvious
Some objections to the concept of prayer to the saints betray
restricted notions of heaven. One comes from anti-Catholic Loraine
Boettner:
"How, then, can a human being such as Mary hear the prayers of
millions of Roman Catholics, in many different countries, praying in
many different languages, all at the same time?
"Let any priest or layman try to converse with only three people at
the same time and see how impossible that is for a human being. . . .
The objections against prayers to Mary apply equally against prayers
to the saints. For they too are only creatures, infinitely less than
God, able to be at only one place at a time and to do only one thing
at a time.
"How, then, can they listen to and answer thousands upon thousands of
petitions made simultaneously in many different lands and in many
different languages? Many such petitions are expressed, not orally,
but only mentally, silently. How can Mary and the saints, without
being like God, be present everywhere and know the secrets of all
hearts?" (Roman Catholicism, 142-143).
If being in heaven were like being in the next room, then of course
these objections would be valid. A mortal, unglorified person in the
next room would indeed suffer the restrictions imposed by the way
space and time work in our universe. But the saints are not in the
next room, and they are not subject to the time/space limitations of
this life.
This does not imply that the saints in heaven therefore must be
omniscient, as God is, for it is only through God's willing it that
they can communicate with others in heaven or with us. And Boettner's
argument about petitions arriving in different languages is even
further off the mark. Does anyone really think that in heaven the
saints are restricted to the King's English? After all, it is God
himself who gives the gift of tongues and the interpretation of
tongues. Surely those saints in Revelation understand the prayers they
are shown to be offering to God.
The problem here is one of what might be called a primitive or even
childish view of heaven. It is certainly not one on which enough
intellectual rigor has been exercised. A good introduction to the real
implications of the afterlife may be found in Frank Sheed's book
Theology and Sanity, which argues that sanity depends on an accurate
appreciation of reality, and that includes an accurate appreciation of
what heaven is really like. And once that is known, the place of
prayer to the saints follows.
"Directly to Jesus"
Some may grant that the previous objections to asking the saints for
their intercession do not work and may even grant that the practice is
permissible in theory, yet they may question it on other grounds,
asking why one would want to ask the saints to pray for one. "Why not
pray directly to Jesus?" they ask.
The answer is: "Of course one should pray directly to Jesus!" But that
does not mean it is not also a good thing to ask others to pray for
one as well. Ultimately, the "go-directly-to-Jesus" objection
boomerangs back on the one who makes it: Why should we ask any
Christian, in heaven or on earth, to pray for us when we can ask Jesus
directly? If the mere fact that we can go straight to Jesus proved
that we should ask no Christian in heaven to pray for us then it would
also prove that we should ask no Christian on earth to pray for us.
Praying for each other is simply part of what Christians do. As we
saw, in 1 Timothy 2:1-4, Paul strongly encouraged Christians to
intercede for many different things, and that passage is by no means
unique in his writings. Elsewhere Paul directly asks others to pray
for him (Rom. 15:30-32, Eph. 6:18-20, Col. 4:3, 1 Thess. 5:25, 2
Thess. 3:1), and he assured them that he was praying for them as well
(2 Thess. 1:11). Most fundamentally, Jesus himself required us to pray
for others, and not only for those who asked us to do so (Matt.
5:44).
Since the practice of asking others to pray for us is so highly
recommended in Scripture, it cannot be regarded as superfluous on the
grounds that one can go directly to Jesus. The New Testament would not
recommend it if there were not benefits coming from it. One such
benefit is that the faith and devotion of the saints can support our
own weaknesses and supply what is lacking in our own faith and
devotion. Jesus regularly supplied for one person based on another
person's faith (e.g., Matt. 8:13, 15:28, 17:15-18, Mark 9:17-29, Luke
8:49-55). And it goes without saying that those in heaven, being free
of the body and the distractions of this life, have even greater
confidence and devotion to God than anyone on earth.
Also, God answers in particular the prayers of the righteous. James
declares: "The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its
effects. Elijah was a man of like nature with ourselves and he prayed
fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months
it did not rain on the earth. Then he prayed again and the heaven gave
rain, and the earth brought forth its fruit" (Jas. 5:16-18). Yet those
Christians in heaven are more righteous, since they have been made
perfect to stand in God's presence (Heb. 12:22-23), than anyone on
earth, meaning their prayers would be even more efficacious.
Having others praying for us thus is a good thing, not something to be
despised or set aside. Of course, we should pray directly to Christ
with every pressing need we have (cf. John 14:13-14). That's something
the Catholic Church strongly encourages. In fact, the prayers of the
Mass, the central act of Catholic worship, are directed to God and
Jesus, not the saints. But this does not mean that we should not also
ask our fellow Christians, including those in heaven, to pray with
us.
In addition to our prayers directly to God and Jesus (which are
absolutely essential to the Christian life), there are abundant
reasons to ask our fellow Christians in heaven to pray for us. The
Bible indicates that they are aware of our prayers, that they
intercede for us, and that their prayers are effective (else they
would not be offered). It is only narrow-mindedness that suggests we
should refrain from asking our fellow Christians in heaven to do what
we already know them to be anxious and capable of doing.
In Heaven and On Earth
The Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray
with us. Thus in Psalms 103, we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his
angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of
his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his
will!" (Ps. 103:20-21). And in Psalms 148 we pray, "Praise the Lord!
Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise
him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!" (Ps. 148:1-2).
Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In
the book of Revelation, we read: "[An] angel came and stood at the
altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense
to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar
before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers
of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3-4).
And those in heaven who offer to God our prayers aren't just angels,
but humans as well. John sees that "the twenty-four elders [the
leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb,
each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are
the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8). The simple fact is, as this
passage shows: The saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the
saints on earth.
NIHIL OBSTAT: I have concluded that the materials
presented in this work are free of doctrinal or moral errors.
Bernadeane Carr, STL, Censor Librorum, August 10, 2004
IMPRIMATUR: In accord with 1983 CIC 827
permission to publish this work is hereby granted.
+Robert H. Brom, Bishop of San Diego, August 10, 2004
David
> On 16 Apr 2007 18:42:30 -0700, David <davecher...@earthlink.net>
So are you saying incompetence? At least this time you are not
foolishly accusing me of changing my user id.
> Don't worry,
Heh, I won't.
>you'll get back there soon, no doubt.
For those who are curious, this means Christian/parakaleo/Checker will
run away from me yet again, very soon, he has no doubt.
> Yep, I DID
> killfile you, at least twice!
>
Three times Christian/parakaleo/Checker, but I am more than happy to
correct your counting errors as well as your Biblical errors.
And you did just admit you are also parakaleo as well as Checker.
Thanks for finally admitting that after dodging the issue for months
and playing all sorts of acrobatic word games and dodges to avoid it.
Too bad you don't follow the Biblical admonition Jesus made to speak
plainly. But then following the Bible is something you preach more
than you practice.
>
>
>
>
> >> Show us anywhere in the Bible where the Bible teaches to pray to
> >> ANYONE in heaven
>
> >I don't take orders from you Christian/parakaleo/Checker.
>
> >Of course, if you read my previous posts to you, back when you were
> >parakaleo and pretending not to be Christian, I gave you Psalm 103:20.
>
> >Bless the LORD, all you angels, mighty in strength and attentive,
> >obedient to every command.
>
> >Remember Christian/parakaleo/Checker?
>
> >http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic/...
>
> >> except God Himself!
>
> Ps 103:19-22
>
> 19 The Lord has established His throne in heaven,
> And His kingdom rules over all.
>
> 20 Bless the Lord, you His angels,
> Who excel in strength, who do His word,
> Heeding the voice of His word.
Bingo, prayer to the angels. Thanks for reinforcing my point Christian/
parakaleo/Checker.
> 21 Bless the Lord, all you His hosts,
> You ministers of His, who do His pleasure.
> 22 Bless the Lord, all His works,
> In all places of His dominion.
> NKJV
>
> Sorry
There is no need to be sorry Christian/parakaleo/Checker, I have shown
you are in error again, but if you learn from your mistakes you will
be better for it.
>bubba,
Who is Bubba?
>but it does not say AT ALL to pray to anyone other than
> God here.
>
Psalm 103 is a prayer Christian/parakaleo/Checker. You would know this
if you actually studied your Bible. The Psalms are prayers the Jews
wrote, in the form of hymns and songs. By addressing the angels, the
Psalm prays to them as well as to God.
> Sorry,
There is no need to be sorry Christian/parakaleo/Checker, I have shown
you are in error again, but if you learn from your mistakes you will
be better for it.
>but the text says NOTHING of what you claim,
Wrong again Christian/parakaleo/Checker, the Psalm proves my claim. As
I have shown above.
>AS USUAL.
You are usually wrong Christian/parakaleo/Checker, that is true.
>
> So why don't you try finding some text somewhere that says we should
> pray to anyone other than GOD HIMSELF.
>
I already did Christian/parakaleo/Checker, Psalm 103:20, right there
in the Bible. I did it a year and a half ago, and I did it again now.
Try and keep up.
> SHOW US where God GAVE SUCH A COMMAND.
>
Notice that Christian/parakaleo/Checker continues to pretend that
Psalm 103:20 is not a prayer to angels. He is as laughably wrong in
this as when he pretended he was just Checker and not parakaleo.
>
>
> >Are you saying angels are not in heaven Christian/parakaleo/Checker?
>
> >> BETCHA CAN'T.
>
> >I already did a year and a half ago Christian/parakaleo/Checker.
>
> Except that the passage STILL DOES NOT SAY WHAT YOU CLAIM.
Wrong again Christian/parakaleo/Checker, the Psalm does what I
claimed, thereby proving my point. As I have shown above. Everyone,
notice that Christian/parakaleo/Checker now tries to squirm out of his
defeat by pretending the Bible has to say it rather than do it.
> Not any
> more than it did then.
>
Wrong again Christian/parakaleo/Checker, the Psalm does prove that one
may pray to those in heaven. In Psalm 103:20, the prayer is to angels
in heaven, then and now. You have lost again.
>
>
>
>
> >> in Christ Jesus,
> >> Checker
>
> >Likewise Checker, who used to be known as parakaleo, and before that
> >was known as Christian.
>
> >> (you can call me superduck if you wish
>
> >Heh, everyone, notice how Christian/parakaleo/Checker does not
> >actually deny he used to call himself parakaleo, or Christian. That is
> >because he used to go by those identities, until he was so badly
> >discredited that he pretended to be someone new.
>
> >And also notice that he pretends to act as if he did not call himself
> >these names, acting as if I made up those names. Such laughable
> >nonsense on the part of Christian/parakaleo/Checker.
>
> >>...who cares?)
>
> >Indeed, most likely no one will care if you choose to call yourself
> >superduck next Christian/parakaleo/Checker.
>
> Yep,
Nope.
>you have earned your way back to the killfile, david
Everyone, let the record show that defeating Christian/parakaleo/
Checker is the way you get to be killfiled by him. Of course, this is
the fourth time, so it lasts about as long as a hockey penalty.
> You are
> pathetic.
>
Why are you talking to yourself Christian/parakaleo/Checker? There is
no need to be so hard on yourself, just because you lost, is no reason
to call yourself pathetic.
> In the Name of Jesus,
> Checker
Likewise Checker, who used to be known as parakaleo, and before that
was known as Christian.
duke
>Show us anywhere in the Bible where the Bible teaches to pray to
>ANYONE in heaven except God Himself!
Yet it is God that revealed that Mary is alive and well, body and soul, in
heaven. And we ask her to pray along side us to her son.
You lose again, checker.
duke
>So are you saying incompetence? At least this time you are not
>foolishly accusing me of changing my user id.
>> Don't worry,
>Heh, I won't.
>>you'll get back there soon, no doubt.
>For those who are curious, this means Christian/parakaleo/Checker will
>run away from me yet again, very soon, he has no doubt.
That's his style - to hide from discussion.
Paul Duca
duckg...@cox.net wrote on 4/17/07 6:09 AM:
> On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 21:55:17 -0400, Paul Duca <p.d...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> in article maj623ldj0c9dnulk...@4ax.com, duke at
>> duckg...@cox.net wrote on 4/16/07 6:18 AM:
>>
>>> On Sun, 15 Apr 2007 19:36:09 -0400, Paul Duca <p.d...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> What did you see me do, pervert?
>>>
>>>> Nothing that your priest didn't see when you were eight...
>>>
>>> You're the peeping tom.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> So you never take a shower or use the toilet, then...so God won't
>> see your winkie?
>
> You're getting sick, peeping tom.
God sees you naked, Duke....and since you refer to Him as the He who
created you in His image, don't think He lacks a weiner.
Paul
David
> On 10 Apr 2007 12:30:55 -0700, "CE" <jlris...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> >On Apr 10, 3:59 pm, chec...@flapper.com wrote:
> >> On 10 Apr 2007 08:28:39 -0700, "Liam Too" <liamtoo...@yahoo.com>
> >> wrote:
>
> >> >On Apr 10, 9:35 am, chec...@flapper.com wrote:
> >> >> <snipped the Luther and Zwingli quotes; they are not relevant>
>
> >> >LOL!
>
> >> >Christian History 101: Luther and Zwingli were the first architects of
> >> >the "Protestant Reformation."
>
> >> >Read and learn checker!
>
> >> Too bad, but the "protestant reformation" of the rcc cult was NOT the
> >> beginning of Christianity, nor was the rcc EVER the "mother church."
>
> >> She was instead, a harlot, trading what was good for what was evil,
> >> Truth for manmade heresies.
>
> >> in Christ Jesus,
> >> Checker
>
> >Curious. Which church do you think handed down the Bible to you? Which
> >church do you think preserved the teachings of Christianity during all
> >those centuries until the rise of the non-Catholic Christian
> >denominations?
>
This is an excellent question, and notice that below Christian/
parakaleo/Checker responds with an answer that has no evidence to
support it in the historical record. Apparently Christian/parakaleo/
Checker lives in a fantasy world where 1st century Christians went to
their churches on Sunday with their King James English Bibles tucked
in their arms.
> You ASSUME that "church" means social/religious/political/financial
> oligarchy, which it does not.
Actually the Bible shows the early Christian church set up with
hierarchy, and collections were taken to help the church in Jerusalem.
Does this meet Christian/parakaleo/Checker's definition of
"financial"? Does it meet his definition of "religious"? Who knows?
Notice he never bothers to explain what a "social" oligarchy is, or
his other terms. By keeping his description so all-encompassing he
makes it meaningless, which lets him make ridiculous accusations that
sound bad but never have any precision in meaning.
> "church" merely means "congregation, a
> group of people called together for a purpose."
Wrong, it means more than that, the Bible clearly shows a hierarchy in
the church the apostles establish.
> Jesus further defined
> it as the meeting of two or three (or more) people in His Name.
>
Wrong again, Jesus said he would be there when people gather in His
name, but his Church was something more than just two or more people
getting together in His name.
>> Which "religious organization?" Which "handed the Bible down?"
>
> The rcc
Catholic Church, not the rcc. But for Christian/parakaleo/Checker to
acknowledge his error here would jeopardize his historical fantasy, so
he continues to error.
>has NEVER been the "origins of the texts" ever.
Christian/parkaleo/Checker pretends the Councils establishing the
Bible canon never happened.
> The texts
> were written by men led of God, NOT the rcc.
Those men belonged to the early Catholic Church Christian/parakleo/
Checker, no matter how much you pretend otherwise.
>The various canons were
> chosen by Christians in various places,
Various canons? Does Christian/parakaleo/Checker vary his Bible books?
Hmm...since he edits the Biblical text to suit his purposes in the
past when arguing with me, why shouldn't he add and delete books from
his canon?
Of course, the canon established by the Councils was consistent in the
early church(or churches), there was universal acceptance despite
controversy over a few of the books(2 Peter, Revelations, etc). A few
other works did tend to fluctuate in popularity, but they were never
universally accepted, and didn't make it into the Bible that Councils
agreed upon.
> not by the rcc.
Yes, by the Catholic Church.
>Not by the
> orthodox that "schismed" from the rcc much later either.
>
More historical ignorance in calling them orthodox on the part of
Christian/parakaleo/Checker. They were the eastern branches of the
Catholic Church at that time.
> Denominations (not even the rcc, the orthodox, or the waldeneses)
> "preserved" the teachings of Christianity.
Christian/parakaleo/Checker doesn't even understand what denomination
means. The root meaning is from the name, and refers to churches which
split off from the main church. Those denominations had what they took
from the early Church, which is the Catholic Church.
> They have been preserved
> by CHRISTIANS,
The Catholic Church.
> and by THE TEXT OF THE BIBLE,
The text is only as preserved as the church kept it.
>not the manmade
Unsupported assertion.
>heretical
> practices
Unsupported assertion.
>of the rcc
Catholic Church, I correct your error again Christian/parakaleo/
Checker.
> or orthodox. THOSE practices were INVENTED
> LATER,
Unsupported assertion.
>and were not part of Christ's church at all!
Notice Christian/parakaleo/Checker provides no evidence for his
assertion. That is because he cannot.
>
> in Christ Jesus,
Don't be surprised if Christian/parakaleo/Checker does not respond to
this post. He has already run away from me again, rather than answer
my arguments. Since he has been unable to answer my arguments for the
past two years, it is safe to say he cannot.